View Full Version : Thailand Politics
Pages :
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
[
10]
If anyone downloads / watches John Oliver's HBO show from last Sunday they will be surprised by 2 items on Thailand. Always amazes me when you have to watch political comedy to see real news discussed these days in an intelligent manner. The first bit is on the General and the second part can not be mentioned here. Let it be said that I don't think Oliver will be vacationing in Thailand any time soon. Not if he likes being a free man.
Wolvenvacht
06-26-14, 18:23
Hiv rate Thailand 2011 1,2%.
Hiv rate Burma 2011 0,6%.
Hiv rate Cambodia 2011 0,5%.
Hiv rate Vietnam 2011 0,5%.
Hiv rate Laos 2011 0,3%.
http://www.avert.org/south-east-asia-hiv-aids-statistics.htmI think these percentages tell more about the reporting and local politics than actual reality.
It's against the law in VN for a VN national to share a room with a foreigner. There are reports of LE raids & beating guys to a pulp. Secondly, prostitution is against the law, they take it seriously, & you wouldn't enjoy the inside of a VN prison cell. Thirdly, the general scene there is IMO significantly more difficult & dangerous than LOS.It is against the law for a local lady to stay with a foreigner. It's hard to do in any of the better hotels unless you book two rooms. However, most hotels simply call your room at a certain hour and tell you that your "guest" must leave. There a about a bazillion independent Chinese-run hotels where this isn't a problem. Outside of SGN it's even easier. I spent the night with a lovely in Nha Trang, once, and loved every minute of it.
P4 P may be against the law, but enforcement is spotty at best. District 1 in SGN, just as an example, is chock full of girly bars. ALL of them have arrangements with the police, as well as with one of the above mentioned hotels.
As far as danger goes, I've never felt afraid in VN. The girls tended to have far less mileage than their BKK sisters. And one thing I loved, most didn't have kids. I asked one and she looked shocked that I'd asked such a stupid question. "No," she said. "I'm not married. " Ahh, if that were only the case everywhere. LOL.
it is against the law for a local lady to stay with a foreigner. it's hard to do in any of the better hotels unless you book two rooms. however, most hotels simply call your room at a certain hour and tell you that your "guest" must leave. there a about a bazillion independent chinese-run hotels where this isn't a problem. outside of sgn it's even easier. i spent the night with a lovely in nha trang, once, and loved every minute of it.
p4 p may be against the law, but enforcement is spotty at best. district 1 in sgn, just as an example, is chock full of girly bars. all of them have arrangements with the police, as well as with one of the above mentioned hotels.
as far as danger goes, i've never felt afraid in vn. the girls tended to have far less mileage than their bkk sisters. and one thing i loved, most didn't have kids. i asked one and she looked shocked that i'd asked such a stupid question. "no," she said. "i'm not married. " ahh, if that were only the case everywhere. lol.to each their own. i'm well aware of the situation in vietnam. just see no need to needlessly put myself at such a risk when there are various risk free nations nearby, but i'm sure some people get off on "extreme tourism":
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/extreme_tourism
i love vn girls, but elsewhere in sea without the communist victorian era influence i can enjoy hcmc & hanoi stunners for as little as 600 baht. moreover in vn i'd probably have to pay more.
vietnam p4 p ladies can be easily found in singapore, macau, kuala lumpur, phnom penh & hong kong.
the situation in vietnam is much the same as in laos, another place i'd avoid the girls like the plaque:
"relationship with lao citizens: lao law prohibits sexual contact between foreign citizens and lao nationals except when the two parties have been married in accordance with lao family law. any foreigner who enters into a sexual relationship with a lao national risks being interrogated, detained, arrested, or fined. lao police have confirep001ed passports and imposed fines of up to $5,000 on foreigners who enter into unapproved sexual relationships. the lao party to the relationship may be jailed without trial. foreigners are not permitted to invite lao nationals of the opposite sex to their hotel rooms; police may raid hotel rooms without notice or consent. "
http://travel.state.gov/content/passports/english/country/laos.html
"relationship with lao citizens: lao law prohibits sexual contact between foreign citizens and lao nationals except when the two parties have been married in accordance with lao family law. any foreigner who enters into a sexual relationship with a lao national risks being interrogated, detained, arrested, or fined. lao police have confirep001ed passports and imposed fines of up to $5,000 on foreigners who enter into unapproved sexual relationships. the lao party to the relationship may be jailed without trial. foreigners are not permitted to invite lao nationals of the opposite sex to their hotel rooms; police may raid hotel rooms without notice or consent. "is there any reason to move outside thailand?
News:
http://www.sbs.com.au/news/article/2014/12/13/thailands-crown-prince-divorces-wife
Background Info:
http://www.japantimes.co.jp/opinion/2014/12/04/commentary/thai-crown-prince-causing-the-elites-anxiety/#.VIvNEHvQM_o
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-30275513
Giotto
Paul Kausch
12-13-14, 06:52
News:
http://www.sbs.com.au/news/article/2014/12/13/thailands-crown-prince-divorces-wife
Background Info:
http://www.japantimes.co.jp/opinion/2014/12/04/commentary/thai-crown-prince-causing-the-elites-anxiety/#.VIvNEHvQM_o
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-30275513
GiottoYes, I first read about the scandal a few weeks ago. You could see this coming. Does this affect the line of succession? Is his oldest son still in line? Any ideas what is behind this?
"relationship with lao citizens: lao law prohibits sexual contact between foreign citizens and lao nationals except when the two parties have been married in accordance with lao family law. any foreigner who enters into a sexual relationship with a lao national risks being interrogated, detained, arrested, or fined.Oh shit, I just fucked a girl from Laos last night. Can I plead ignorance? I did not dream that it is not permitted. I do try to stay away from under the right age.
ActionOriented
12-13-14, 07:54
Oh shit, I just fucked a girl from Laos last night. Can I plead ignorance? I did not dream that it is not permitted. I do try to stay away from under the right age.Perhaps that applies only in Laos. Took a Lao girl from CH one night and she was a good bang, didn't realise it was against the law. Hmm.
This is the kind of stuff that makes me nervous about planning a trip to Thailand: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/01/23/yingluck-shinawatra-impeached_n_6529366.html. I mean, everything could suddenly go to hell in a hand basket and ruin my trip! Also, I see that the King is old and frail. If he dies, there will be days or mourning. And, I'm sure with the bars, massage parlors, and nightclubs shut down to show respect. The result will be no tits and ass for TC in Thailand! I figure that if I get enough advance notice of something about to go down, I can just cancel the trip and go another time. Are my jitters justified or unfounded?
This is the kind of stuff that makes me nervous about planning a trip to Thailand: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/01/23/yingluck-shinawatra-impeached_n_6529366.html. I mean, everything could suddenly go to hell in a hand basket and ruin my trip! Also, I see that the King is old and frail. If he dies, there will be days or mourning. And, I'm sure with the bars, massage parlors, and nightclubs shut down to show respect. The result will be no tits and ass for TC in Thailand! I figure that if I get enough advance notice of something about to go down, I can just cancel the trip and go another time. Are my jitters justified or unfounded?Cane.
I'm in Pattaya now and it is biz as usual even with all the impeachment stuff. Even on Holidays when the bars are suppose to be closed, there are always some open.
Of course there s always the contact list of favorites in my phone and quick trips to Cambodia for the few days during the holidays.
This is the kind of stuff that makes me nervous about planning a trip to Thailand: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/01/23/yingluck-shinawatra-impeached_n_6529366.html. I mean, everything could suddenly go to hell in a hand basket and ruin my trip! Also, I see that the King is old and frail. If he dies, there will be days or mourning. And, I'm sure with the bars, massage parlors, and nightclubs shut down to show respect. The result will be no tits and ass for TC in Thailand! I figure that if I get enough advance notice of something about to go down, I can just cancel the trip and go another time. Are my jitters justified or unfounded?Politics may put a crimp in the bar biz, but there are always girls available somewhere. It might take a bit more effort, but they will be available.
Now the King dying is another matter. I suspect the entire country will practically shut down for who knows how long. And there's no way to predict this.
As an aside, as I know you also post in the Tijuana section, don't get your hopes up too much. While the scene in LOS is much, much larger than Tijuana, these day's it's not all that much better. Depending on what you're coming for, it may not be worth the 20-odd hour trip.
is there any reason to move outside thailand?What is this doing in a Thailand forum as the Lao government remit only goes as far as the borders of their own country.
There is plenty of discussion on this in the Lao forum. But in summary, there are many guys who live in Laos with their Lao ladies with no problems. At Lao New Year, they may have to send her back to Mommy for a few days (or go with her to Thailand) while the government cracks down on everything, including bad parking.
There is also quite a bit of P4 P in Laos. And if you do not draw attention to yourself, you won't have a problem.
Remember that Thailand has a law against prostitution but it is never enforced. In Laos it is only enforced when the falang creates problems, and even then only rarely.
Wolvenvacht
01-24-15, 20:36
This is the kind of stuff that makes me nervous about planning a trip to Thailand: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/01/23/yingluck-shinawatra-impeached_n_6529366.html. I mean, everything could suddenly go to hell in a hand basket and ruin my trip! Also, I see that the King is old and frail. If he dies, there will be days or mourning. And, I'm sure with the bars, massage parlors, and nightclubs shut down to show respect. The result will be no tits and ass for TC in Thailand! I figure that if I get enough advance notice of something about to go down, I can just cancel the trip and go another time. Are my jitters justified or unfounded?I find it so funny that this whole "situation" in Thailand seems so much more dangerous when seen from abroad whilst in Thailand you hardly notice anything.
I find it so funny that this whole "situation" in Thailand seems so much more dangerous when seen from abroad whilst in Thailand you hardly notice anything.I get that. I've been close on the ground to news stories before, and know for a fact that the media has a way of exaggerating and sensationalizing things. That's why I asked "justified" or "unfounded" to the vets on this board.
Paul Kausch
01-24-15, 20:57
I find it so funny that this whole "situation" in Thailand seems so much more dangerous when seen from abroad whilst in Thailand you hardly notice anything.Absolutely right. I was in Bangkok in December 2013 when the protests were starting. There were a couple of parades down Sukhumvit past my hotel. Otherwise everything was as always. I was there June 2014 when the curfew was in effect. There were fewer visitors. My hotel was practically empty. I had to start and end the evening earlier, but the ladies were more motivated and accommodating than normal.
Absolutely right. I was in Bangkok in December 2013 when the protests were starting. There were a couple of parades down Sukhumvit past my hotel. Otherwise everything was as always. I was there June 2014 when the curfew was in effect. There were fewer visitors. My hotel was practically empty. I had to start and end the evening earlier, but the ladies were more motivated and accommodating than normal.Well at least elections have been pushed back into 2016. I like that. And I say long live the King! But if he is going to pass, then let him do so either well before I arrive or after I depart.
AussieDoug
01-25-15, 07:46
I find it so funny that this whole "situation" in Thailand seems so much more dangerous when seen from abroad whilst in Thailand you hardly notice anything.That's the looney leftie type newspapers commenting on the news rather than reporting it just as it is. Many of us can rememeber more than one coup in Thailand, no big deal at all, you just wound up with a copper and an army guy sitting in the bars together. The Phillipines was under martial law for more than 15 years, and tourism of our interests did not dry up.
AussieDoug
01-25-15, 07:51
Yes, I first read about the scandal a few weeks ago. You could see this coming. Does this affect the line of succession? Is his oldest son still in line? Any ideas what is behind this?The line of succeession is very blurred in Thailand, the present "office holder" came to the throne after his elder brother took a swan dive down the palace steps, the current prince is seen as a dillettant, and his sister has been doing all the hard yards filling in for her parents opening and closing festivals etc, and she has a lot of support, but the always corrupt politicians who run the country could scarcely take her to a soapy to bond with.
RCA Knight
01-25-15, 10:38
Well at least elections have been pushed back into 2016. I like that. And I say long live the King! But if he is going to pass, then let him do so either well before I arrive or after I depart According to experts, if Bhumi dies, the news won't break until the Sino yellow network has all the stuffs under their control. So they maybe showing a few more archive videos as live for a while along the way. So when you get the news of Bhumi died, it could be a few months old. It seems like the Sino yellow network made a few deals with crowned son already, many sources believe the regular succession will take place, but they will make the crowned daughter another goddess just like her old man, to carry on the fairy tale and the yellow rule. I believe that how this thing will play out, a double king queen sort of thing with the usual old Sino yellow pulling the strings with all their military and judicial puppets. Old old Siam continues on. Hooking continues on, but more expensive.
Wolvenvacht
01-25-15, 10:55
The line of succeession is very blurred in Thailand, the present "office holder" came to the throne after his elder brother took a swan dive down the palace steps, the current prince is seen as a dillettant, and his sister has been doing all the hard yards filling in for her parents opening and closing festivals etc, and she has a lot of support, but the always corrupt politicians who run the country could scarcely take her to a soapy to bond with.Actually, didn't His brother, the then King Rama VIII, "accidentally" shot himself? Although later two palace aides were convicted of regicide and executed.
Absolutely right. I was in Bangkok in December 2013 when the protests were starting. There were a couple of parades down Sukhumvit past my hotel. Otherwise everything was as always. I was there June 2014 when the curfew was in effect. There were fewer visitors. My hotel was practically empty. I had to start and end the evening earlier, but the ladies were more motivated and accommodating than normal.On the other hand I was in Thailand in November 2008 when the airport got shut down for a week and a half in the midst of protests (and until it re-opened, none of us knew how long before it would be possible to leave the country, at least from an airport). Then in mid-2010 things got really out of hand, and when all was said and done close to 100 people were dead and close to 1,500 injured, and Central World Shopping center as well as other buildings were burned down.
While hopefully this sort of thing will not repeat itself, my fear is that when the King passes all bets will be off and the political strife could escalate substantially, perhaps to levels not seen in recent times.
Wolvenvacht
01-25-15, 14:36
On the other hand I was in Thailand in November 2008 when the airport got shut down for a week and a half in the midst of protests (and until it re-opened, none of us knew how long before it would be possible to leave the country, at least from an airport). Then in mid-2010 things got really out of hand, and when all was said and done close to 100 people were dead and close to 1,500 injured, and Central World Shopping center as well as other buildings were burned down.
While hopefully this sort of thing will not repeat itself, my fear is that when the King passes all bets will be off and the political strife could escalate substantially, perhaps to levels not seen in recent times.One cannot predict, neither in Thailand nor anywhere else. One year I ago I flew from the new Donetsk airport, now it is a smoking ruin. 2014 saw race riots in the USA and even the National Guard had to be called out. Paris had terrorists killing innocent satirical writers and shoppers in a Jewish supermarket.
So perhaps we should all stay home and cower in our basement? Then the bad peope have really won. No! I say go out and monger! The free world demands it of you.
One cannot predict, neither in Thailand nor anywhere else. One year I ago I flew from the new Donetsk airport, now it is a smoking ruin. 2014 saw race riots in the USA and even the National Guard had to be called out. Paris had terrorists killing innocent satirical writers and shoppers in a Jewish supermarket.
So perhaps we should all stay home and cower in our basement? Then the bad peope have really won. No! I say go out and monger! The free world demands it of you.To throw in a minimum of common sense doesn't hurt. And to be aware what happens after the king's death will have been announced is part of that. Turning a blind eye doesn't help.
Wolvenvacht
01-25-15, 15:04
To throw in a minimum of common sense doesn't hurt. And to be aware what happens after the king's death will have been announced is part of that. Turning a blind eye doesn't help.That's not what I was saying. Nobody knows the future; nobody can tell you what will happen when the King dies. Other than some obvious measures (the whole of official Thailand will shut down for a while; bars and clubs will be closed for a very short while) it is all just guessing. So tell me, what "common sense" or awareness about what will happen do you offer?
Paul Kausch
01-25-15, 17:22
The line of succeession is very blurred in Thailand, the present "office holder" came to the throne after his elder brother took a swan dive down the palace steps, the current prince is seen as a dillettant, and his sister has been doing all the hard yards filling in for her parents opening and closing festivals etc, and she has a lot of support, but the always corrupt politicians who run the country could scarcely take her to a soapy to bond with.I have read that the current kings older brother died of a gun shot wound, and he (the current king) was in the chambers with him at the time. It was reported it was an accident. I expect as all the stuff we can see and read about goes on there is much maneuvering behind closed doors. Isn't the king the richest man in the world?
Isn't the king the richest man in the world?Don't know where in the world you got that one from PK. Not even close!
http://www.forbes.com/billionaires/list/
Another list with another approach to looking at riches has him at number 25. Still many spots from the top. He's the richest monarch, but not the richest man overall.
http://www.therichest.com/top-lists/top-250-richest-people-in-the-world/
Wolvenvacht
01-25-15, 19:45
I have read that the current kings older brother died of a gun shot wound, and he (the current king) was in the chambers with him at the time. It was reported it was an accident. I expect as all the stuff we can see and read about goes on there is much maneuvering behind closed doors. Isn't the king the richest man in the world?According to Forbes he is the richest monarch in the world, but they add together both his "personal" fortune and the value of the Crown Fund which is not really his personal money, but some kind of management institute administering the royal possessions. In a certain way one could look at it as the Thai version of a Sovereign Investment Fund as one sees for instance in the Gulf States or Singapore.
Paul Kausch
01-25-15, 20:05
Don't know where in the world you got that one from PK. Not even close!
Another list with another approach to looking at riches has him at number 25. Still many spots from the top. He's the richest monarch, but not the richest man overall.
http://www.therichest.com/top-lists/top-250-richest-people-in-the-world/
According to Forbes he is the richest monarch in the world, but they add together both his "personal" fortune and the value of the Crown Fund which is not really his personal money, but some kind of management institute administering the royal possessions. In a certain way one could look at it as the Thai version of a Sovereign Investment Fund as one sees for instance in the Gulf States or Singapore.Opps, I know better. Should have written monarch. By the way, royalty and private citizens aside, how do you calculate the wealth of a dictator? How much is Asad worth? Kim? I know more than a few smart guys who tell me knowledgeable people believe Putin is by far the wealthiest person on the planet. At least he was before the sanctions.
One cannot predict, neither in Thailand nor anywhere else. One year I ago I flew from the new Donetsk airport, now it is a smoking ruin. 2014 saw race riots in the USA and even the National Guard had to be called out. Paris had terrorists killing innocent satirical writers and shoppers in a Jewish supermarket.
So perhaps we should all stay home and cower in our basement? Then the bad peope have really won. No! I say go out and monger! The free world demands it of you.No, having a realistic assessment of the political situation in Thailand and its potential for future violence does not mean we should all stay home and cower in our basement. It simply means having a realistic assessment rather than one seen through rose-colored glasses. And referring to other world problems does not magically diminish Thailand's.
No, having a realistic assessment of the political situation in Thailand and its potential for future violence does not mean we should all stay home and cower in our basement. It simply means having a realistic assessment rather than one seen through rose-colored glasses. And referring to other world problems does not magically diminish Thailand's.Well said.
Wolvenvacht
01-26-15, 08:31
No, having a realistic assessment of the political situation in Thailand and its potential for future violence does not mean we should all stay home and cower in our basement. It simply means having a realistic assessment rather than one seen through rose-colored glasses. And referring to other world problems does not magically diminish Thailand's.Indeed, but my point was that nobody can predict anything within any reasonable margin of error. So it is all idle chatter.
Indeed, but my point was that nobody can predict anything within any reasonable margin of error.The only predictable event is the change in the monarchy. It is an inevitability; and every passing day brings it closer to fruition. And while it would be an historic event and an inflection point in the history of the kingdom I would prefer not to be in country when it happens.
SunLover.
Paul Kausch
01-26-15, 18:11
I think it would be fascinating to be in the country on an extended stay, or better yet living there at that time. One would have to be careful and smart about it, but a new monarch would be such a rare and significant event, witnessing the transition first hand would be memorable.
Old New Guy
01-26-15, 19:06
I think it would be fascinating to be in the country on an extended stay, or better yet living there at that time. One would have to be careful and smart about it, but a new monarch would be such a rare and significant event, witnessing the transition first hand would be memorable.? You will be witnessing a desperate attempt of face saving and rule circumvention to allow a female member of the royal family becoming de-facto head-of-state, and the heir apparent quietly left on the side in the same dimmed visibility that he deserved, yet possibly keeping the title if he clings to it. And it will be, of course, a concealed struggle as it is prohibited to report about this stuff. Thai people is already accepting of the notion that the current one is the last King of Thailand. There will be no new day after the mourning, no fresh energies and rising, just a difficult time for a country that will need to find a new direction, based on progress and values rather than inspiration and guidance from crowned heads, and good luck with that.
Paul Kausch
01-26-15, 19:39
? You will be witnessing ... Wouldn't it be exciting to see the transition first hand! Graham Greene is one of my favorite 20th Century English language authors. I think of The Quiet American and what it would have been like to be a veteran journalist covering the escalation of the Vietnam (American) War. That was a painful period for the USA and a few of my friends either didn't make it back or came back with physical and / or emotional problems, but that was one of the major world events of the second half of the 20th Century. While it would be less significant on the world stage, the events in Thailand that follow the death of the king could have enormous implications for the country.
Wouldn't it be exciting to see the transition first hand!I think the transition will be filled with profound sadness. The mourning period could last several weeks. It would certainly be interesting / fascinating insight for those of us who appreciate and try to understand Thai culture.
SL.
Paul Kausch
01-27-15, 21:00
I think the transition will be filled with profound sadness. The mourning period could last several weeks. It would certainly be interesting / fascinating insight for those of us who appreciate and try to understand Thai culture.
SL.I think you understood what I meant by exciting. Not excitement like watching a shootout in the World Cup's final match, but an opportunity to be a direct witness to a rare event of enormous significance.
Actually, didn't His brother, the then King Rama VIII, "accidentally" shot himself? Although later two palace aides were convicted of regicide and executed.Correct. Most accounts I've read point to suicide. But the royals would have none of that, and eventually convicted and executed some poor bastard.
I think you understood what I meant by exciting. Not excitement like watching a shootout in the World Cup's final match, but an opportunity to be a direct witness to a rare event of enormous significance.I'm with you, Paul. I think it will be fascinating to watch, especially in-country.
Concerning a point another poster made, I've forgotten the exact term, but the King could explicitly "disinherit" (not the correct term) the Crown Prince, thus removing him from the line of succession. This would put the Crown Princess in line to ascend the throne. I think the chances are slim to none, but it could be done legally. Most Thais I've talked to would much rather see her as Queen than her brother as King.
I know some non-BG middle-class ladies who genuinely think this will be the last king and that the monarchy will be more or less abolished after his passing. Indeed, he'll leave some big shoes to fill and I doubt the current Crown Prince (roundly reviled) is up to the task. IMHO, I think getting rid of the patronage system in Thailand would probably be one of the best things that could happen.
Paul Kausch
01-27-15, 23:27
I'm with you, Paul. I think it will be fascinating to watch, especially in-country.
Concerning a point another poster made, I've forgotten the exact term, but the King could explicitly "disinherit" (not the correct term) the Crown Prince, thus removing him from the line of succession. This would put the Crown Princess in line to ascend the throne. I think the chances are slim to none, but it could be done legally. Most Thais I've talked to would much rather see her as Queen than her brother as King.
I know some non-BG middle-class ladies who genuinely think this will be the last king and that the monarchy will be more or less abolished after his passing. Indeed, he'll leave some big shoes to fill and I doubt the current Crown Prince (roundly reviled) is up to the task. IMHO, I think getting rid of the patronage system in Thailand would probably be one of the best things that could happen.Logically, it would seem the dynasty is on it's last leg and it is time for the country to move on. Will that happen? Wouldn't that have enormous impact on the Bangkok elite and the hangers on? If there is no king can there still be Lèse-majesté? If not that eliminates a powerful weapon. Fascinating, as you write, is a better description than exciting as I wrote.
Wolvenvacht
01-28-15, 20:53
I'm with you, Paul. I think it will be fascinating to watch, especially in-country.
Concerning a point another poster made, I've forgotten the exact term, but the King could explicitly "disinherit" (not the correct term) the Crown Prince, thus removing him from the line of succession. This would put the Crown Princess in line to ascend the throne. I think the chances are slim to none, but it could be done legally. Most Thais I've talked to would much rather see her as Queen than her brother as King.The Thai Palace Law which governs the succession provides that the reigning monarch chooses the successor. There is no reason and actually even no tradition that it has to be his oldest son. It only just so happens that the King (under much pressure from the Queen, it is rumoured) choose his oldest son and then later decided to add his daughter as well as some kind of "back-up".
The Thai Palace Law which governs the succession provides that the reigning monarch chooses the successor. There is no reason and actually even no tradition that it has to be his oldest son. It only just so happens that the King (under much pressure from the Queen, it is rumoured) choose his oldest son and then later decided to add his daughter as well as some kind of "back-up".I think I would disagree slightly. Thai succession has always followed male primogeniture. In fact, I believe that the 1924 Palace Law of Succession codified it. A woman was forbidden to be the monarch until sometime in the late '90s, I think. But a woman can only ascend the throne if she's approved by the Privy Counsel.
Case in point. Rama VII ascended the throne because he was the last surviving brother of Rama VI, and son of Queen Bongsri. He wasn't "first" in line but the first was a girl born to his eldest brother, the next was son of a foreigner and thus excluded, and the last heir had a commoner for a mother. It appears Rama VII ascended according to the Palace Law at the time, and male primogeniture. It's a bit muddier because the current king's grandfather was actually older, but the son of a different queen. Man, that Rama V sure got around! "It's good to be the king!
When Rama VII abdicated in 1935 he had no kids. The current king's grandfather had already died, putting his children first in line. So, Ananda ascended the throne until his death in 1946, then Bhumibol until now. Again, all based upon the rules of male primogeniture.
So, traditionally, the eldest male brother, then grandsons, then subsequent younger brothers/grandsons, are the ones who would ascend to the throne. Absent a designated (male) heir, a royal-born female could be appointed Queen.
The key is designated. I've forgotten the procedure, but the king could "undesignated" the current heir apparent. As there are no more male children, that would leave the door open for the princess to be appointed. I think the odds of that are about the same as a snowstorm in Bangkok in April.
Correct. Most accounts I've read point to suicide. But the royals would have none of that, and eventually convicted and executed some poor bastard.Yeah, suicide ...
There are certain indications that make this thesis highly unlikely:
- the King was going to leave Thailand a few days later, back to Switzerland, where he would meet the woman he loved.
- the way of the bullet showed that the King was lying when he was shot. Highly unlikely for suicide in the opinions of forensic experts.
- the gun was very difficult to fire in suicidal direction, with its safety mechanisms.
- the gun was found on the wrong side of the bed, if considered his preferred hand.
- the discussions and talks at the Palace in the aftermath. Those people knew what really had happened.
A good read to get more background information about what has happened that day in June 1946:
Rayne Kruger, The Devil's Discus, Cassel London 1964.
And - if you want to get closer to what really might have happened that day...
https://facthai.wordpress.com/2012/03/17/the-death-of-king-ananda-andrew-macgregor-marshall/
Giotto
PS: Finally we got to the root cause of the Thai political problem, the recurring coups, the red shirt / yellow shirt conflict ... all that started in June 1946.
The Thai Palace Law which governs the succession provides that the reigning monarch chooses the successor. There is no reason and actually even no tradition that it has to be his oldest son. It only just so happens that the King (under much pressure from the Queen, it is rumoured) choose his oldest son and then later decided to add his daughter as well as some kind of "back-up".Succession ...
Most likely there will not be a woman on the throne soon. It looks as if an arrangement has finally been made between the yellow elite (now ruling) and the crown prince.
All started with those corruption cases a few weeks ago. Everybody was surprised - they are all corrupt here in the leadership, in the police, in the army, on the red side, on the yellow side - there is no difference. For that there is an unwritten rule that nobody fucks another powerful member of the elite club up. But suddenly many police and some army guys were arrested because of corruption accusations. Very strange. All powerful people on both sides were suddenly waking up. What was going on?
A few days later it became clear that all those arrested people belonged to the family of the wife of the crown prince.
Some more days later the crown prince got divorced and the palace stripped his ex wife off all her royal titles and names.
Background is that the yellow elite was NEVER accepting this woman as possible Queen of Thailand. Because of her past. Everybody outside of Thailand can check this out in the web.
This was a coordinated action of the coup government and the crown prince, and it indicates that the succession problem is now solved.
Giotto
Paul Kausch
01-29-15, 18:22
News:
http://www.sbs.com.au/news/article/2014/12/13/thailands-crown-prince-divorces-wife
Background Info:
http://www.japantimes.co.jp/opinion/2014/12/04/commentary/thai-crown-prince-causing-the-elites-anxiety/#.VIvNEHvQM_o
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-30275513
Giotto
Yes, I first read about the scandal a few weeks ago. You could see this coming. Does this affect the line of succession? Is his oldest son still in line? Any ideas what is behind this?
It looks as if an arrangement has finally been made between the yellow elite (now ruling) and the crown prince.
Background is that the yellow elite was NEVER accepting this woman as possible Queen of Thailand.
This was a coordinated action of the coup government and the crown prince, and it indicates that the succession problem is now solved.
GiottoThanks for answering my question. ;)
Wouldn't you love to be a fly on the wall and observe while these people spin their webs?
Thanks for answering my question. ;)
Wouldn't you love to be a fly on the wall and observe while these people spin their webs?Hmmmm ...
I just booked a room in Bangkok Hilton. It's a problem to talk about this issues if you live in Thailand.
https://thaipoliticalprisoners.wordpress.com/tag/the-devils-discus/
Quote: "Clearly, any discussion of King Anandas death might land a person in jail for lse majest."
This people here in power believe that they do the right thing. They are the "good people" wanted by the King to run the country. Fact is that they staged a coup and should be trialed for High Treason. That's all. They should go to jail and NEVER get out in their lives again!!!
I was never a friend of the Shinawatra dynasty. But at least this related governments were democratically elected. They made mistakes - but they were democratically elected !!!
In this country we have this mechanism that makes everything worse ... again and again. The "good people" take over the power because they believe that something is going wrong ... and the higher god-like authority signs an interim constitution that legalize their actions and grants them amnesty. This mechanism was used many times in the past - and it turns out to be a disaster for this country!
I am so sick and tired of those fucking generals taking over power, having not clue at all, not being able to run the country at all and robbing the country of its forward developing momentum and forcing it to loose another 10 years (per coup). The intellectual capacity of those people is very very limited. They are not capable of running a complex country like Thailand. But - they hold the power with the support of a group of never learning conservative power players aged 80 ++ ... who think they do it right for Thailand and just create the next catastrophe.
And most of the people I talk to here in Thailand (99 %, of the Thais and the Farang Business Guys) support the coup! Farangs support a coup!!! If I ask them what they would do if a coup happens in their home country they argue "This is Thailand, and here we need this kind of measures". I argue: it's about values, and a coup is IN GENERAL NEVER acceptable.
Fuck.
I am so sick and tired about what is going on in this country!!!!! And tomorrow I will most likely be invited to stay in Bangkok Hilton!
OK!!! FUCK THE GENERALS!!!
Giotto
Old New Guy
01-29-15, 19:45
Giotto, well done for speaking your mind and explaining some facts that otherwise might never be known to the casual reader.
If you end up at the monkey house I'll be visiting and corrupting wards to get you a better treatment, ahaha!
Member #4698
01-29-15, 21:05
And most of the people I talk to here in Thailand (99 %, of the Thais and the Farang Business Guys) support the coup! Farangs support a coup!!! If I ask them what they would do if a coup happens in their home country they argue "This is Thailand, and here we need this kind of measures". I argue: it's about values, and a coup is IN GENERAL NEVER acceptable. Fuck. I am so sick and tired about what is going on in this country!!!!! FUCK THE GENERALS!!!
GiottoI say shag everybody: the reds and the yellows. I asked my favorite Go Go girl which side she was on and at first she was reticent to say, but then after a little friendly coaxing on my part, she admitted she was a red shirt fan. Why? She couldn't say except that she is from Isan and her family are rice farmers.
You think it is any different in the good ol' USA? Forgetaboutit. America is going to hell in a hand basket just like Thailand. No worse. Red shirt/yellow shirt translates into progressive/conservative Obama-Clinton/Romney-Bush. Neither side can talk to each other and reach a compromise. It is all political theater and a majority of the American people don't know anything or give a shit. Turns out, a real functioning Democracy is a very fragile form of government that requires a lot from its citizens. It amazes me that the American grand experiment has lasted as long as it has. But the system is falling apart now and America appears to be heading into a dictatorship of the dumb and consenting. We still have the constitution, but it is starting to mean anything the ruling party wants it to mean. Sometimes I get really discouraged and think that what the USA needs is a coup, just like Thailand, a time out, in order to get back to a level playing field and some political sanity. Maybe every 250 years or so you have to clean house and start over. Or maybe Democracies are very rare forms of government and by their innate nature can not last for very long and that it is going to take a thousand years or more before we will see another functioning Democracy come along again.
All I know is, I would rather be hanging out in Thailand shagging pretty Thai girls, and eating great food than living in the USA sitting in a ring side seat watching the end of the world as we know it.
Hmmmm ...
I was never a friend of the Shinawatra dynasty. But at least this related governments were democratically elected. They made mistakes - but they were democratically elected !!!
...
I am so sick and tired of those fucking generals taking over power, having not clue at all, not being able to run the country at all and robbing the country of its forward developing momentum and forcing it to loose another 10 years (per coup). The intellectual capacity of those people is very very limited. They are not capable of running a complex country like Thailand. But - they hold the power with the support of a group of never learning conservative power players aged 80 ++ ... who think they do it right for Thailand and just create the next catastrophe.
I'm not convinced that Yingluck had the intellectual capacity to run a restaurant, let alone Thailand. Dayum, it was a hoot to listen to her give a speech in English.
As nice as it sounds, "Democratically Elected" is worthless. Hitler & Mussolini were democratically elected to their parliament seats and properly appointed to higher power. And we see where that led. I don't know if you've been to Venezuela, but what used to be a nice place was turned into an absolute shithole thanks to a democratically elected Hugo Chavez.
To simplify, Democracy = Mob Rule. Mob rule is verrrryyy rarely a good thing, especially when you have a large group of people who are poorly educated and have their hands out.
Wolvenvacht
01-30-15, 08:23
I think I would disagree slightly. Thai succession has always followed male primogeniture. In fact, I believe that the 1924 Palace Law of Succession codified it. A woman was forbidden to be the monarch until sometime in the late '90s, I think. But a woman can only ascend the throne if she's approved by the Privy Counsel.Nope. Male primogeniture is only the "back-up" position.
This is what the Palace Law states:
Section 5 – The king has the sole power and prerogative to designate any descendant of the royal family as heir to the throne, depending on his judgement and trust placed on the ability of the said person to succeed him.
Section 6 – Once the king has designated the heir to the throne and has had such designation proclaimed to members of the royal family, officials and the public at large, the position of such heir is secure and indisputable. When the necessary time comes, the said heir shall immediately ascend the throne to succeed the late king in accordance with the latter's wish.
Section 7 – The king has the sole power and prerogative to remove the heir to the throne from his position. Anyone who has been removed from the position of heir to the throne shall be considered as excluded from any claim to succession and his name shall be removed from the line of succession. His sons and his entire lineage of direct descendants shall also be excluded from the line of succession. The king has the sole power and prerogative to exclude any member of the royalty from the line of succession.
If and only if, the reigning King did not appoint a successor, then there is a back-up cascade of successors (as per Section 9):
1. The first-born son of the king and queen;.
2. The first-born son of the said prince and his royal consort;.
3. Younger sons, in order, of the said prince and his royal consort;.
4. The second-born son of the king and queen when the first-born son is deceased and has no male children;.
5. The first-born son of the second-born son of the king and queen if the second-born son is deceased;.
6. Younger sons, in order, of the second-born son (and so on).
As nice as it sounds, "Democratically Elected" is worthless. Hitler & Mussolini were democratically elected to their parliament seats and properly appointed to higher power. And we see where that led. I don't know if you've been to Venezuela, but what used to be a nice place was turned into an absolute shithole thanks to a democratically elected Hugo Chavez.Didn't Saddam get "100%" of the vote LOL!
I'm not convinced that Yingluck had the intellectual capacity to run a restaurant, let alone Thailand. Dayum, it was a hoot to listen to her give a speech in English.
As nice as it sounds, "Democratically Elected" is worthless. Hitler & Mussolini were democratically elected to their parliament seats and properly appointed to higher power. And we see where that led. I don't know if you've been to Venezuela, but what used to be a nice place was turned into an absolute shithole thanks to a democratically elected Hugo Chavez.
To simplify, Democracy = Mob Rule. Mob rule is verrrryyy rarely a good thing, especially when you have a large group of people who are poorly educated and have their hands out.Yep,
That's the kind of bullshit I am listening to here in Bangkok all the time. Go ahead, justify coups! Must be fun somehow...
As for the facts:
Yingluck was not expected to have any intellectual capacity. She was a proxy for others, as we all know. Still - I hope you speak as well Thai as she speaks English.
What was a "nice place" for people with money was not necessarily a "nice place" for poor people living there. And Chavez was not really interested in making YOU happy.
As for Hitler & Mussolini - that kind of argumentation is so much out of line that commenting makes no sense at all. But you should read a bit about the "Ermaechtigungsgesetz":
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enabling_Act_of_1933
Giotto
Succession Law:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1924_Palace_Law_of_Succession
In regards of females Section 13:
Section 13 As it is deemed to be untimely for a princess to ascend the throne as a sole sovereign of Siam, inclusion of princesses in the line of succession shall be categorically prohibited.
Amendments in the constitutions of 1997 and 2007:
"In the case where the throne becomes vacant and the king has not appointed his heir under paragraph one, the Privy Council shall submit the name of successor to the throne under Section 22 to the Council of Ministers [cabinet] for further submission to the National Assembly for approval. For this purpose, the name of a princess may be submitted. Upon the approval of the National Assembly, the president of the National Assembly shall invite such successor to ascend the throne and proclaim such successor king
Section 10:
"Whoever is to ascend to the throne should be one from the masses fully respect and can be contentedly taken as their protector. Therefore any member of the royalty whom the multitude holds as loathsome, such person should foreswear the path to succession in order to remove the worry from the king and the people from the realm."
Giotto
Yep,
That's the kind of bullshit I am listening to here in Bangkok all the time. Go ahead, justify coups! Must be fun somehow...
As for the facts:
Yingluck was not expected to have any intellectual capacity. She was a proxy for others, as we all know. Still - I hope you speak as well Thai as she speaks English.
What was a "nice place" for people with money was not necessarily a "nice place" for poor people living there. And Chavez was not really interested in making YOU happy.
As for Hitler & Mussolini - that kind of argumentation is so much out of line that commenting makes no sense at all. But you should read a bit about the "Ermaechtigungsgesetz":
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enabling_Act_of_1933
GiottoIf Thai were the lingua franca of the entire civilized world, you can bet your ass I'd be reasonably fluent in Thai if I had all the education she supposedly had, and if I were elected to be the spokesman for the entire United States. Khunying Yingluck sounded like a bar girl. Which is fine if you're a bar girl. After a bazillion baht of education at the finest schools, and to sound like that, well, I don't know if she's to blame or the abysmal Thai education system.
No, poor Hugo wasn't interested in making me happy. And all of his supposedly good intentions have failed miserably. Unless you consider poverty and bankruptcy a success, in which case he's been successful beyond his wildest dreams. So, let's see. You think that instituting policies to make people without money happy are a good idea. In practice that seems to be things like destroying free enterprise, punishing the "rich" and redistributing wealth. All of which gets one handily reelected by the mobs, but drives away the producers of said wealth. In the end, you get Detroit. So, let's allow the mob to rule. What could go wrong?
Nobody here is justifying a coup. But the alternative in Thailand appears to be a leftist dictatorship, continually "democratically reelected" by mobs demanding more and more taxpayer money. (Oddly, Venezuela again springs to mind). Neither are appealing. What's your solution?
Paul Kausch
01-30-15, 21:09
Giotto,
I respect your passion. It conveys a genuine caring for Thailand and for the country's majority population. However, I'm not convinced the Shinawatra's and Pheu Thai care about the country or it's people as much as you, not that the people who are currently running the country care more than the people they deposed.
I think it is obvious many of Pheu Thai's programs, the rice scheme (scam) in particular, were transparent attempts to buy votes; and it, the rice scheme, was economically unsustainable. Everyone who knew anything about commodity trading warned the government it would not work. Pheu Thai's leadership chose to ignore those warnings, while managing to skim enough to do quite nicely personally.
Thailand will never afford a decent standard of living to the majority of its people without major changes, especially in the agricultural sector. There are too many people using too many resources producing too little for farmers to achieve a decent living. But if not agriculture, what will these people do? What are they prepared to do? In the short term the government could offer decent health care and a subsidized food program. Pheu Thai provided low cost health care to the poor, but it didn't bother to figure out how to pay for it and the result was another unsustainable program. The long term solution is to provide all Thai's with an opportunity for a decent basic education, the equivalent of high school in a developed country, and vocation-technical training to prepare people for decent paying jobs. Then of course the country needs to create those jobs. Ironically, many people in my country, the USA, clamor for the same things, though I think my country's problems are not so much a lack of opportunities as a lack of desire to take advantage of opportunities that exist.
I have little faith in politicians of any flavor. Almost all seem to be opportunists, and those who are not are soon corrupted or driven out of the business. Politicians dare not allow an honest person to succeed in politics. It seems to me the world is made up of a few people who are givers, a few people who are takers and a lot of people who are taken. It has always been that way and may always be that way, though I for one choose not to lose hope. As individuals we are left with a fundamental decision. Will we be part of the problem or part of the solution?
PK.
Yep,
That's the kind of bullshit I am listening to here in Bangkok all the time. Go ahead, justify coups! Must be fun somehow...
As for the facts:
Yingluck was not expected to have any intellectual capacity. She was a proxy for others, as we all know. Still - I hope you speak as well Thai as she speaks English.
What was a "nice place" for people with money was not necessarily a "nice place" for poor people living there. And Chavez was not really interested in making YOU happy.
As for Hitler & Mussolini - that kind of argumentation is so much out of line that commenting makes no sense at all. But you should read a bit about the "Ermaechtigungsgesetz":
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enabling_Act_of_1933
GiottoWhat Giotto has posted is largely correct. The new "PM" is totally self serving and behaves like a spoiled brat. Thailand is now as bad as any dictatorship with its re education. I hope the US punishes Thailand by cutting off aid as all western countries should do.
I'm fascinated by the little kerfuffles recently between the junta and American diplomats. To those in the know: why do the Americans (apparently) prefer the elected leadership this time, unlike back in the Cold War days, and do you think they'll be able to get what they want?
I don't know the answer, but I do think its apparent that being in America's doghouse can be a very uncomfortable place to be, no matter how much support you get from China.
If Thai were the lingua franca of the entire civilized world, you can bet your ass I'd be reasonably fluent in Thai if I had all the education she supposedly had, and if I were elected to be the spokesman for the entire United States. Khunying Yingluck sounded like a bar girl. Which is fine if you're a bar girl. After a bazillion baht of education at the finest schools, and to sound like that, well, I don't know if she's to blame or the abysmal Thai education system.
No, poor Hugo wasn't interested in making me happy. And all of his supposedly good intentions have failed miserably. Unless you consider poverty and bankruptcy a success, in which case he's been successful beyond his wildest dreams. So, let's see. You think that instituting policies to make people without money happy are a good idea. In practice that seems to be things like destroying free enterprise, punishing the "rich" and redistributing wealth. All of which gets one handily reelected by the mobs, but drives away the producers of said wealth. In the end, you get Detroit. So, let's allow the mob to rule. What could go wrong?
Nobody here is justifying a coup. But the alternative in Thailand appears to be a leftist dictatorship, continually "democratically reelected" by mobs demanding more and more taxpayer money. (Oddly, Venezuela again springs to mind). Neither are appealing. What's your solution?Thailand was far from leftist under the Shins. The economy grew at an astounding rate and the nation actually started to develop a middle class. Yes, they threw some bones to the poor, and it got them the votes, but in the end they were very pro-biz. He ran the nation like it was his biz and he was the CEO. That was a threat to the established power structure and they were having none of it and none of the middle class thing either. At what point did the economy stall in the '00's? After the first coup and when the Dems were in power. PT came back in and growth.
Thailand was far from leftist under the Shins. The economy grew at an astounding rate and the nation actually started to develop a middle class.
I wouldn't say the growth under Taksin was 'astounding', merely acceptable or normal for a lower-middle income developing country. The astounding growth in Thailand was in the 80s and early 90s.
To be fair, the Thai population is now no longer growing, and is rapidly aging, so growth will inevitably be much lower than it was during the 80s-90s, and even somewhat lower than during the Taksin years, when the working age population had yet to begin to stagnate.
But your larger point - that his government was far from leftist - is certainly quite true. And I wonder if this might explain why the US prefers democracy in Thailand - a far more stable and productive route to continued/enhanced Wall Street colonization than the crude old methods used during the Cold War.
I wouldn't say the growth under Taksin was 'astounding', merely acceptable or normal for a lower-middle income developing country. The astounding growth in Thailand was in the 80s and early 90s.
To be fair, the Thai population is now no longer growing, and is rapidly aging, so growth will inevitably be much lower than it was during the 80s-90s, and even somewhat lower than during the Taksin years, when the working age population had yet to begin to stagnate.
But your larger point - that his government was far from leftist - is certainly quite true. And I wonder if this might explain why the US prefers democracy in Thailand - a far more stable and productive route to continued/enhanced Wall Street colonization than the crude old methods used during the Cold War.Yes, their population pyramid inverted in 97. That and their increasing demand and hence need to import more and more gas and oil could quite possibly be their undoing. Electricity prices will double in the next 10 years bringing them in line with the other nations in SE Asia. Cost of labor is already higher and with potential changes to the Foreign Business Act in the works, Thailand will be far less attractive to businesses and investors. Of course the powers that be here are already so wealthy they just don't care, wishing instead to hold onto power at all costs, even if it means wrecking the economy.
http://www.bangkokpost.com/opinion/opinion/462805/don-t-blame-americans-for-bad-acting
Giotto
Giotto,
I respect your passion. It conveys a genuine caring for Thailand and for the country's majority population. However, I'm not convinced the Shinawatra's and Pheu Thai care about the country or it's people as much as you, not that the people who are currently running the country care more than the people they deposed.
I think it is obvious many of Pheu Thai's programs, the rice scheme (scam) in particular, were transparent attempts to buy votes; and it, the rice scheme, was economically unsustainable. Everyone who knew anything about commodity trading warned the government it would not work. Pheu Thai's leadership chose to ignore those warnings, while managing to skim enough to do quite nicely personally.
...
PK,
I could write pages now, but I try to reduce this comment to the minimum.
The yellow side of the political spectrum has run this country for nearly 60 years, and they did NOTHING for the poor people of the North / North-East. TRT, PT etc. Is not the action, it is the REACTION!
Now. I would never expect me to write anything to justify what the Shins have done to this country, and I really don't want this to be misunderstood as such. But at least they have initiated MORE POSITIVE developments for the poor in the first 5 years of their governance than those yellow governments in nearly 60 years. Yellow governments are those elected (long time ago), those appointed (several), those following coups that installed benevolant interim governments (e. G. 2006), those following coups when the military took over positions as PM and developed a kind of dictatorship (yeah, this happens from time to time) and those coups that simply installed tyrants (Thanom etc.).
I also did not like the rice scheme, and I have written about this before. Nevertheless this is a different issue. Or do you think it gives a general the right to overthrow a democratically elected government? Do you really believe that the rice scheme was the reason for this coup? Do you really believe that the possible death Thai people caused by the PDRC demonstrations justify this coup?
The PT government tried before to change the constitution from 2007 that all senators should be elected, no senator to be appointed any more. For me as a simple democrat this makes sense. For the Constitutional Court decided:
"The majority of the nine judges ruled that making the Senate fully elected would 'destroy the checks and balances' and could lead to a seizure of power in the Parliament. ".
Ahhhh. Later then there was the strong movement of the yellows to get all those impeached who had voted IN FAVOUR of this constitutional amendment. There were even several calls and court cases to charging those parliamentarians with Lse-majest.
Now we have the situation that somebody simply overthrows the constitution that was approved from the people (with a VERY small margin, because it was already a YELLOW constitution) and signed by the King! And this is - Ok? No Lse-majest? No protest from the Constitutional Court? No nothing, all good?
Look, guys, I don't understand this! Somebody might explain this to me. Show me the chapter of the constitution that allows a general to overthrow a government for certain reasons. I have missed this chapter up to now. But I cannot read Thai.
But then - there are mechanisms in all constitutions that allow institutions or specific people to dissolve a parliament under certain circumstances. A very respected person here in Thailand could do this, and the people would accept this. The same person has signed the constitution and the rice scheme related laws!
But as I know - none of those people have asked the Generals to take over power.
So what? You want to talk about the rice scheme? Or - some others come up with Hugo Chavez? Or with arguments like "Democracy = Mob Rule" ?
That's ridiculous!
Giotto
Paul Kausch
02-01-15, 19:51
PK,
I could write pages now, but I try to reduce this comment to the minimum.
GiottoGiotto,
I do not disagree with you. I just believe both parties exploit the average people in Thailand in different ways. I don't know how you develop a modern democratically elected republic in Thailand, or any other developing country for that matter. I sure wouldn't use the USA as an example of a country Thailand should strive to emulate. Perhaps the countries in northern Europe or Canada are good models, but there paths to where they are today are so different than Thailand's recent past. Seems you have to develop a strong, well-educated middle class and quality civil institutions. I'm not a political historian and know very little about these things.
Paul.
Paul Kausch
02-01-15, 20:03
The Bangkok Post reports there were two loud explosions from a transformer at the Siam Central BTS station. Reuters reports 2 pipe bombs exploded outside Siam Paragon. Funny that the Post never refers to the explosions as being bombs even though Lieutenant General Prawut Thawonrsiri, a spokesman for the Royal Thai Police stated that they were improvised explosive devices detonated by a digital clock. For some reason the Post missed that statement. Hmmm.
http://www.bangkokpost.com/opinion/opinion/462805/don-t-blame-americans-for-bad-acting
GiottoAwesome!! Great op-ed.
PK,
I could write pages now, but I try to reduce this comment to the minimum.
The yellow side of the political spectrum has run this country for nearly 60 years, and they did NOTHING for the poor people of the North / North-East. TRT, PT etc. Is not the action, it is the REACTION!
Now. I would never expect me to write anything to justify what the Shins have done to this country, and I really don't want this to be misunderstood as such. But at least they have initiated MORE POSITIVE developments for the poor in the first 5 years of their governance than those yellow governments in nearly 60 years. Yellow governments are those elected (long time ago), those appointed (several), those following coups that installed benevolant interim governments (e. G. 2006), those following coups when the military took over positions as PM and developed a kind of dictatorship (yeah, this happens from time to time) and those coups that simply installed tyrants (Thanom etc.).
I also did not like the rice scheme, and I have written about this before. Nevertheless this is a different issue. Or do you think it gives a general the right to overthrow a democratically elected government? Do you really believe that the rice scheme was the reason for this coup? Do you really believe that the possible death Thai people caused by the PDRC demonstrations justify this coup?
The PT government tried before to change the constitution from 2007 that all senators should be elected, no senator to be appointed any more. For me as a simple democrat this makes sense. For the Constitutional Court decided:
"The majority of the nine judges ruled that making the Senate fully elected would 'destroy the checks and balances' and could lead to a seizure of power in the Parliament. ".
Ahhhh. Later then there was the strong movement of the yellows to get all those impeached who had voted IN FAVOUR of this constitutional amendment. There were even several calls and court cases to charging those parliamentarians with Lse-majest.
Now we have the situation that somebody simply overthrows the constitution that was approved from the people (with a VERY small margin, because it was already a YELLOW constitution) and signed by the King! And this is - Ok? No Lse-majest? No protest from the Constitutional Court? No nothing, all good?
Look, guys, I don't understand this! Somebody might explain this to me. Show me the chapter of the constitution that allows a general to overthrow a government for certain reasons. I have missed this chapter up to now. But I cannot read Thai.
But then - there are mechanisms in all constitutions that allow institutions or specific people to dissolve a parliament under certain circumstances. A very respected person here in Thailand could do this, and the people would accept this. The same person has signed the constitution and the rice scheme related laws!
But as I know - none of those people have asked the Generals to take over power.
So what? You want to talk about the rice scheme? Or - some others come up with Hugo Chavez? Or with arguments like "Democracy = Mob Rule" ?
That's ridiculous!
GiottoAgree with you 100% Giotto!
HotShaneHot
02-02-15, 12:47
The Bangkok Post reports there were two loud explosions from a transformer at the Siam Central BTS station. Reuters reports 2 pipe bombs exploded outside Siam Paragon. Funny that the Post never refers to the explosions as being bombs even though Lieutenant General Prawut Thawonrsiri, a spokesman for the Royal Thai Police stated that they were improvised explosive devices detonated by a digital clock. For some reason the Post missed that statement. Hmmm.Yer.
On Thai TV it was say it was a boom.
PK,
I could write pages now, but I try to reduce this comment to the minimum.As if the rice scheme were the start and end of the problems with the Thaksin governments. Seriously, what a remarkably cherry picked "minimum" list this was.
Politics in this country are far too screwed up for so simple a solution as just giving Thaksin free reign. Robert Mugabe, now there's a guy who can win elections. Democracy is always better, right? If only real life were that easy.
Crocodilexp
02-02-15, 19:40
Politics in this country are far too screwed up for so simple a solution as just giving Thaksin free reign.
Is this ignorance or perfidious inversion of the story? Indeed, the worst possible choice is giving one political group free reign, yet precisely this was done. The junta now has free reign. Thaksin, for all his authoritarian tendencies, never launched a coup, ripped up the constitution, declared himself above the law and banned all criticism. All of these the junta proudly did.
Instead, Thailand needed to build up the institutions and appropriate checks and balances (not just patronage networks tussling), starting with people being able to freely discuss political ideas and vote for / against those they dislike. While Thaksin was not exactly advancing democracy, political pluralism and institutions (too focused on advancing his own power / network), he was not blatantly destroying them either, as junta has done and keeps doing.
Paul Kausch
02-19-15, 06:31
Last June some Thai friends told me before this is all over Yingluck will be in self-imposed exile, with her brother, to avoid going to prison. Now I read The Supreme Court has set March 19 to decide whether to accept for further proceedings the OAG's indictment of her; and the OAG will not seek a court order prohibiting her from traveling outside of the country. I have a hard time imaging the court will not find her guilty. I also have a hard time believing she will spend one night in prison. "How the mighty have fallen."
Member #4591
08-18-15, 16:09
Last June some Thai friends told me before this is all over Yingluck will be in self-imposed exile, with her brother, to avoid going to prison. Now I read The Supreme Court has set March 19 to decide whether to accept for further proceedings the OAG's indictment of her; and the OAG will not seek a court order prohibiting her from traveling outside of the country. I have a hard time imaging the court will not find her guilty. I also have a hard time believing she will spend one night in prison. "How the mighty have fallen."Let's move the bomb discussed here please.
TwoTimeTed
08-21-15, 00:18
Bangkok Bomb.
I find the government's arrogance very abhorrent.
Just as fast as they pinpointed what person in the video was the bomber, they also made many references as to the bomber being a foreigner. A non-Thai.
On one of the videos, they fastly said " he's not Thai right?. With that kind of attitude I'm sure they will find the perpetrator very soon.
They just can't believe one of their own. A Thai could do a bombing. So right away it was a "foreigner". I believe the bomber is probably a Thai, but I have no backing to say that. As the Thai government has no backing to prove they are right.
I am curious about the 3/4 length pants he was wearing in the video. These are also known as 'Thai' fisherman pants. I only lived in Bangkok last winter but I recall seeing this style of pants worn by younger Thai guys during the day. I am not sure if young westerners wear this style or not but perhaps someone can enlighten me. From my perspective, the sketch artist rendering of the alleged perpetrator appears to be of Asian descent. Perhaps Thai, maybe Malay, or from Singapore, but certainly not a white Westerner and for the police and government to outright dismiss him as Thai is suspect as to their motivations.
It reminds me a bit of how they arrested those Burma guys last year and decided they killed that young British couple on one of the islands after the police made statements dismissing the idea the killers could be Thai. Round up the usual suspects and all that. It took about a week for the USA Authorities to catch the Boston Marathon bombers. Let's see how long this takes. Any bets out there?
However, in this situation, world wide and Thai scrutiny will not allow the government to simply find a few fall guys with trumped up evidence. I would hate to simply look like that guy and have no alibi for that particular afternoon. They need to call in that detective from the John Burdett Bangkok novels but alas he is fictional.
Bangkok Bomb.
I find the government's arrogance very abhorrent.
Just as fast as they pinpointed what person in the video was the bomber, they also made many references as to the bomber being a foreigner. A non-Thai.
On one of the videos, they fastly said " he's not Thai right?. With that kind of attitude I'm sure they will find the perpetrator very soon.
They just can't believe one of their own. A Thai could do a bombing. So right away it was a "foreigner". I believe the bomber is probably a Thai, but I have no backing to say that. As the Thai government has no backing to prove they are right.
Eric Swiss
08-21-15, 07:59
Bangkok Bomb.
I find the government's arrogance very abhorrent.
Just as fast as they pinpointed what person in the video was the bomber, they also made many references as to the bomber being a foreigner. A non-Thai.
On one of the videos, they fastly said " he's not Thai right?. With that kind of attitude I'm sure they will find the perpetrator very soon.
They just can't believe one of their own. A Thai could do a bombing. So right away it was a "foreigner". I believe the bomber is probably a Thai, but I have no backing to say that. As the Thai government has no backing to prove they are right.Not sure if you live in Thailand, but if you do, and are a foreigner, as I presume, then you should be more respectful of the country that is hosting you and of the government that is in charge of organizing its affairs. Calling them arrogant and abhorrent is characteristic of a neo-colonialist mentality of superiority that tarnishes the reputation of foreigners. If you don't like it here, there are 192 other countries in the world that will gladly take your money.
For your information, the moto-taxi driver who picked up the terrorist at the bomb site said he was a foreigner. He would know more than the rest of us, wouldn't he?
In addition, the government said that the bomber is part of a network which includes Thai citizens. So they are not whitewashing their own, are they?
Why did the thai government close the crime scene so quick? Last night at work I actually watched a report by I think it was Al Jazeera, who were actually pulling bomb fragments as well as several ball bearings out of the wall, they then took this evidence down to the police who's response was of somewhat disinterest, wtf? If this were not so tragic an event it would be laughable. As for the suspect, he is well gone by now, could be anywhere outside Thailand and may never be apprehended. The suspect is said to be Middle Eastern as he spoke English according to bike taxi riders. It strikes me that the Thai government has not got the steel to deal with this cowardly act. Perhaps they aware who carried this out and wish for it to blow by in a hurry. Also what is striking is the unsophisticated nature of this bombing, a backyard manufacture if you like.
TwoTimeTed
08-21-15, 08:22
Re Bangkok Bomb.
You may call me a neo colonial if you wish, be that as it may, but I hope you open your eyes and know the truth instead of being a sheltered little boy.
Fact is, the Thailand government has come out and said they guy is a "foreigner" and also said that it must have been an opposition Thailand based group. Does that put a question in your mind?
Yes, you are correct that a motor-taxi Thai had allegedly said, the man spoke no ENGLISH nor Thai, thus a foreigner. My fear is, the government broadcast that to quash any claim that it could be a Thai.
Again their arrogance. Furthermore. The Thai government to my readings also has turned down the help of the British (WHO HAVE EXPERIENCE IN BOMBINGS EVIDENCE).
It does not matter where I live, please try to leave that out of the equation.
As far as being more respectful, what is more respectful to you, questioning what happened or going along with whatever they say.
They won't even have an open mind to think that it may be a Thai that did it. Remember, right away they said it was a foreigner. Before they talked to the taxi man. Open your mind.
I agree that the Bangkok Thai are arrogant. I also agree that they have done nothing for the people of Isaan. When Voldemort finally kicks the bucket the place will disintegrate. Voldemort and certain members of his family are desperate to hang on to the last vestiges of power.
Incidentally, there is a strong rumour here that the bomb was actually planted by a military stooge so that the self appointed PM has an excuse to impose martial law and postpone an election.
Agree with you 100% Giotto!I also agree 100 percent with this.
....I also agree that they have done nothing for the people of Isaan....
....Incidentally, there is a strong rumour here that the bomb was actually planted by a military stooge so that the self appointed PM has an excuse to impose martial law and postpone an election.
Why you not just tell, that you are a Hardcore Redshirt? - and then all your funny rumors and speculations are easy to understand.
Why you not just tell, that you are a Hardcore Redshirt? - and then all your funny rumors and speculations are easy to understand.This really is a silly comment. I am a "no shirt". However I do tell it the way it is. Surely you cannot support who is the current self appointed PM? As FR as the rumour goes, it is a commonly held view here.
Eric Swiss
08-23-15, 06:29
PK,
So what? You want to talk about the rice scheme? Or - some others come up with Hugo Chavez? Or with arguments like "Democracy = Mob Rule" ?
That's ridiculous!
GiottoI am not sure what is ridiculous about the arguments from political science that point out the flaws and limitations of democratic regimes. They exist, whether you are cognizant of them or not.
For example, it is provable that democracy induces short-time-orientedness, which is what economists call a high discount factor: long-term capital investments are sacrificed in favor of squeezing out immediate dividends. This is no way to run a country if you care about its future.
There is also the iron law of oligarchy, which states that in a democracy the majority of voters are influenced by a small clique of opinion-moulders, while in a monarchy the king can only govern with the consent of an extended entourage of bureaucratic managers, so in the end the size of the effective ruling class is pretty much a constant.
In any case, you will have a hard time convincing me, and probably anybody else for that matter, that the same political system (in this case: democracy) is optimal for all of the 193 different countries in the world and for all the centuries to come. I mean, is your real name Francis Fukuyama?
.... However I do tell it the way it is. Surely you cannot support who is the current self appointed PM? As FR as the rumour goes, it is a commonly held view here...
Do you report from Mars? -most of Thais are happy with the Military instead of Bomb trowing 'Democrats' - no one tell it's Democracy now -but before it was also not since about 2001! - So only some funny Farangs with Isaan Wife are telling stories about the bad. Bad. Junta!
PK,
....The yellow side of the political spectrum has run this country for nearly 60 years, and they did NOTHING for the poor people of the North / North-East. TRT, PT etc. Is not the action, it is the REACTION!..
... Do you really believe that the rice scheme was the reason for this coup? Do you really believe that the possible death Thai people caused by the PDRC demonstrations justify this coup?
....Show me the chapter of the constitution that allows a general to overthrow a government for certain reasons.
And what Thaksin did for this poor People?
30 Baht Card for Hospital - (already exist in different way).
Build a dam. Not working - (the King want to help him.).
Airport 6 Month after the opening. They had to repair.
Rice Programm...
Tablets...
1. Car Buyers.
Only 1 man profits most of all this. Thaksin and his Followers. For sure not the poor Farmers. They have now more dept than ever!
So hurrah this kind of Democracy by People only looking for the Poor in Isaan / Chiangmai / Udon. And Thaksin owns now about 3 Billion USD!
and the last Point - yes the Army is here to prevent a civil war - this crazy Redshirts bombing around and from a Army of at least 100T man - they speak about 600T..
and it's not the first time that there leaders tell the Poeple to burn down Bangkok -of course in a peaceful demoratic way.... 555
TwoTimeTed
08-27-15, 07:09
Media Reports 17% decrease in Tourism (foreigners).
International media is reporting 5% to 17% decline in tourism to Thailand since the Bangkok bomb. Add the fact that the Chinese stock markets are in limbo and their losing their shirts.
I guess the The Philippines will be the new mecca?
Is it business as usual in Bangkok as the junta says?
Do you report from Mars? -most of Thais are happy with the Military instead of Bomb trowing 'Democrats' - no one tell it's Democracy now -but before it was also not since about 2001! - So only some funny Farangs with Isaan Wife are telling stories about the bad. Bad. Junta!Really! Lets hold an election then, shall we? Whoops, I forgot, the self appointed PM is too scared because he would get demolished yet again in the result.
By the way, get your facts straight, I do not live in Isaan, nor is my wife from there.
And what Thaksin did for this poor People?
30 Baht Card for Hospital - (already exist in different way).
Build a dam. Not working - (the King want to help him.).
Airport 6 Month after the opening. They had to repair.
Rice Programm...
Tablets...
1. Car Buyers.
Only 1 man profits most of all this. Thaksin and his Followers. For sure not the poor Farmers. They have now more dept than ever!
So hurrah this kind of Democracy by People only looking for the Poor in Isaan / Chiangmai / Udon. And Thaksin owns now about 3 Billion USD!
and the last Point - yes the Army is here to prevent a civil war - this crazy Redshirts bombing around and from a Army of at least 100T man - they speak about 600T..
and it's not the first time that there leaders tell the Poeple to burn down Bangkok -of course in a peaceful demoratic way.... 555Benno,
Before you start a discussion with me, I suggest you do a couple of things. Do some reading so that you are talking from a base of knowledge and not just a pile of nonsense. Secondly ask a few other people, Thais, for example Giles Ugnaporn what he thinks of Voldemort and the present fake government. Then come back and we can have a sensible discussion. OK?
And what Thaksin did for this poor People?
30 Baht Card for Hospital - (already exist in different way).
Build a dam. Not working - (the King want to help him.).
Airport 6 Month after the opening. They had to repair.
Rice Programm...
Tablets...
1. Car Buyers.
Only 1 man profits most of all this. Thaksin and his Followers. For sure not the poor Farmers. They have now more dept than ever!
So hurrah this kind of Democracy by People only looking for the Poor in Isaan / Chiangmai / Udon. And Thaksin owns now about 3 Billion USD!
and the last Point - yes the Army is here to prevent a civil war - this crazy Redshirts bombing around and from a Army of at least 100T man - they speak about 600T..
and it's not the first time that there leaders tell the Poeple to burn down Bangkok -of course in a peaceful demoratic way.... 555Understand one thing. The Thai political situation is far more complex than a single uneducated THAI OR FARANG can know. I have some highly informed Thai friends in the USA and they are almost afraid to speak HERE IN THE USA for fear that it will get back to Thailand.
I doubt that you speak English as a primary language. That is evident from the nuances of how you address concerns.
Thaksin was a consummate Thai politician. Give the people something and collect as much as possible for himself. Not that it is much different anywhere else, just that the Thai are better at accepting the reality.
The bombing was evidently not a redshirt activity. The pix of the guy don't even LOOK THAI. I'm going back for another month in October. I have more SENSE that to go where crowds are (except Pattaya).
One major problem is that the water levels are lower than they need to be to water the fields. That will drive up food prices and the higher costs will affect tourism as a result.
Benno,
Before you start a discussion with me, I suggest you do a couple of things. Do some reading so that you are talking from a base of knowledge and not just a pile of nonsense...Thanks, Professor LaoMan. 5555.
..The bombing was evidently not a redshirt activity. The pix of the guy don't even LOOK THAI. I'm going back for another month in October....
I don't speak from the Erawan Bombing. I speak from all Bombings before: 2010 and 2014. Mostly Red Shirts bombing around and killing innocent People. Nice Democracy.
Some names: Koo Tee and even Jatuporn and Thida with the big WarDrum Festival and building a parallel Army.
Really! Lets hold an election then, shall we? Whoops, I forgot, the self appointed PM is too scared because he would get demolished yet again in the result...
Are you a Thakisn Jodler? Allways the same fairytale. If you are so clever you should know, how Thaksin get the votes.
As per todays news, A turkish person believed to be the bomber has been arrested with materials to make bomb. More details awaited.
Are you a Thakisn Jodler? Allways the same fairytale. If you are so clever you should know, how Thaksin get the votes.What is a Jodler? I suspect English is not your first language. Have you looked up Giles Ugnaporn or are you still posting without knowing anything?
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.1.4 Copyright © 2025 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.