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Do you have any friends living in Isaan? I have plenty, both Thai and Farang, and I know what really goes on there at election time. If you don't have anyone up there you can ask, there is a thread on the forum that deals with visas in it's Isaan sub-forum (I suspect you will have to go back a few pages now). Read and learn. And in future, do some research before throwing insults around.My god, Terry Terrier,
What kind of [political] boxer are you? You can beat up others but cannot even take a single hit? You really don't need a whining time-out :) ...
The point made was that things work differently here in Thailand, and that Thais don't necessarily behave like you would, based on your socialization in a Western democracy. In Thailand it will be very likely that if the village headman tells the people how to vote they will vote accordingly. Obedience!
Giotto
Lol. You are a case are you not.
Why do you consider them "apolitcal"? Cause that suits your cause?
North and North East hate the Democrats, always have.
South loves the Democrats.
They are not "apolitical". You assumed wrongly.
If we now then consider Giotto to be a PAD lover and supporter, then why does Giotto like them? Business connections?
Opebo,
I don't live in Isaan, but from what I hear you describe the situation as it is. That again raises the question: Why only in Isaan, why don't we see the same phenomenon in the South?
You mention their "particular dislike is for the Democrats". If we now consider this villagers to usually be apolitical - where does this "dislike" come from if not hammered into their heads from a massive propaganda campaign?
Giotto
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/thailand/3885612/Bangkok-airport-protests-were-fun-says-Thailands-new-foreign-minister.html
Bangkok airport protests were fun, says Thailand's new foreign minister
Thailand's new foreign minister has described last month's hijacking of Bangkok's main international airport as "a lot of fun".
By Thomas Bell in Bangkok
Last Updated: 8:09PM GMT 21 Dec 2008
Kasit Piromya, 64, will be sworn in on Monday as Thailand's new foreign minister. His job of rebuilding Thailand's battered international image will not be helped by the fact that he was a prominent supporter of the protests, and still is.
More than 350, 000 travellers were stranded three weeks ago when a few thousand demonstrators from the ultraroyalist People's Alliance for Democracy (PAD) stormed the airport. Investor confidence has been badly shaken and analysts say that lost tourism business could cost 1 million jobs.
But Mr Kasit told an audience of astonished diplomats and foreign journalists on Friday that the protests were "a lot of fun".
"The food was excellent, the music was excellent," he explained................
...
Why do you consider them "apolitcal"? Cause that suits your cause?
...
No, because I think most of them are. Discussed below in a report, surprisingly I even had support from TT.
...
North and North East hate the Democrats, always have.
South loves the Democrats.
...
Aeehhh ... I take it, it's you who said it. May I ask: Why is that so?
...
They are not "apolitical". You assumed wrongly.
...
I don't think so. But may be the TRT propaganda machine has changed this - possible. On the longer term this might have a positive impact on the formation of political opinions. On the short term it is more a kind of manipulation and political paternalism.
...
If we now then consider Giotto to be a PAD lover and supporter, then why does Giotto like them? Business connections?
Then we would consider wrongly, Giotto is not a PAD lover or supporter! And he also has no business connections to the old elite. Livingstone's is mainly for farangs. Giotto just listens and talks to everybody :) ...
Giotto
Opebo,
You mention their "particular dislike is for the Democrats". If we now consider this villagers to usually be apolitical - where does this "dislike" come from if not hammered into their heads from a massive propaganda campaign?
Well, I tried to be clear - they specifically dislike the Democrats because they see them as 'lying in wait' to reap the benefits of the battle, without really taking part in the battle themselves. They're seen as a sort of wishy-washy, do nothing bunch whose only role is to serve as a cover for some others (presumabely military and unmentionables) who really hold the power. Thus, Isaaners may hate the old elite, but they damned well respect and fear them. The Democrats they don't respect.
Lastly I would like to reveal that I have never spent any time nor had any contacts in any small village in Isaan, only in large towns and cities. I have gathered a little information from the rural areas but only second or third hand from Thais and farangs I know who have direct experience there. They do say that villagers, as Bumholes reports, are somewhat timid and out of their depth regarding national politics, but that the recent bizarre events have outraged even these cowed peasants.
Terry Terrier
12-24-08, 01:07
Anyways, whatever. I think one thing we can all agree on (even Giotto and I) is that posting about Thai politics on ISG is unlikely to change the course of events. But it's fun, and a learning curve for us all.
Christmas holidays for me now. I'll be back in a few days, no doubt annoying some. But it'd be a boring place if we all sang from the same hymn sheet, wouldn't it? Am I the only one who misses OTH? Maybe he'll have a change of heart in the New Year.
Happy Christmas to one and all. I hope everyone has a great one.
Terry Terrier
12-24-08, 01:18
.....I wonder do you live in an Isan village. If you do/did you would soon realise that most villagers are scared of their own shadow. They prefer not to go to banks because they see all bank staff as vastly superior to themselves, Doctors, police, amphur and all officialdom are best avoided by them where possible, and if they have to see a doctor they are far too scared to ask what is wrong with them.....
Not from my experience at all, though I'm not disputing that this is the case where you live. I'm not going to post specifics about this on the open forum for obvious reasons, but I'll fire you another PM when I'm back after the Christmas holiday.
...
Christmas holidays for me now. I'll be back in a few days, no doubt annoying some. But it'd be a boring place if we all sang from the same hymn sheet, wouldn't it? Am I the only one who misses OTH? Maybe he'll have a change of heart in the New Year.
Happy Christmas to one and all. I hope everyone has a great one.Terry Terrier,
There must be a God out there, somewhere :) ...
Merry Christmas to you, and all others who are reading this thread. Have a good and peaceful one.
Giotto
PS: The hotel is nearly empty, and I have too much time on hand. I might go ahead with our political analysis awaiting your return to be torn apart :) .
Ridiculous:
http://www.nationmultimedia.com/2008/12/24/headlines/headlines_30091756.php
0:1 against Abhisit, a massive mistake with this selection of a Foreign Minister.
Giotto
We agree Giotto. My word.
http://www.bangkokpost.com/news/politics/135570/pm%3A-foreign-minister-won%27t-be-removed
Massive mistake not to sack him straight away. Perhaps they have to keep him due to PAD pressure. I mean, the PAD did not do it for nothing, they spent so much, they will have to get their money back.
Ridiculous:
http://www.nationmultimedia.com/2008/12/24/headlines/headlines_30091756.php
0:1 against Abhisit, a massive mistake with this selection of a Foreign Minister.
Giotto
Newin's younger brother ushered into power at the Interior Ministry.
http://www.bangkokpost.com/news/local/8653/opposition-set-to-grill-abhisitkasit
"...........Meanwhile, Interior Minister Chavarat Charnvirakul, a member of the Friends of Newin faction, said he decided to appoint Saksayam Chidchob to lead a working group that would help him deal with the ministry's work because "he is mature and full of experience."
Mr Saksayam is a younger brother of Newin Chidchob, the faction's mentor, who is currently under a five-year political ban after he was found guilty of complicity in electoral fraud along with 110 other executives of the disbanded Thai Rak Thai party."
Interesting development, given its already reported he met all the new coalition leaders for a chat over tea before the coalition for the new government was announced, and already has said he offered "just some advice", to now claim he had no hand in it at all must mean that something is building up in the background perhaps?
http://www.bangkokpost.com/breakingnews/135580/army-chief-denies-involvement-in-forming-govt
Army chief denies involvement in forming govt
By: BangkokPost.com
Published: 25/12/2008 at 11:09 AM The army plays no role in forming the government, army chief Anupong Paojinda said Thursday.
Gen Anupong said he is ready to explain to the army committee if he is requested to clarify the matter.
He then called on the Thais to reconcile for the sake of the country.
Gen Anupong also denied having close ties with new Defence Minister Prawit Wongsuwan, saying he has known him because he has worked with him.
The army chief also said soldiers are ready to ensure safety when the government delivers policy statement next week.
He, however, said the army has not been contacted to give assistance on safeguarding the Parliament on that day yet.
We agree Giotto. My word.
...
Perhaps they have to keep him due to PAD pressure. I mean, the PAD did not do it for nothing, they spent so much, they will have to get their money back.Easy2007,
Yep, on Christmas strange things happen, sometimes :) ...
I think the PAD is not involved in this case, Kasit and Leekpai are Abhisit's political mentors - he wants Kasit in that position and in the cabinet.
Merry Christmas!
Giotto
Thaksin in problems:
http://www.nationmultimedia.com/2008/12/26/politics/politics_30091929.php
http://www.nationmultimedia.com/topstory/30091926/Is-this-the-end-of-the-road-for-Thaksin?
It's not that bad news (except for himself). That might open the way for a deal between the government and him: unfreeze some assets here in Thailand for his support to ease the political tensions in the country. Would be typically Thai if such a thing would happen.
Giotto
I would suggest its all part of a misinformation campaign, to try to tear down his influence in Thailand.
If the media can be made to create enough stories about him the hope will be it feeds down to all and sundry and this will help to turn the people who love him into people who will jump into bed with the others.
It took a coup appointed government and coup controllled judicial system over 2 years to fabricate the offences he was according to them "so clearly doing". Which suggests it needed a lot of planning and time and favours.
They know now that any party associated with Thaksin will win the next election, so they should, and likely are, now on to a beefed up misinformation campaign to try to discredit him further.
Thaksin in problems:
http://www.nationmultimedia.com/2008/12/26/politics/politics_30091929.php
It's not that bad news (except for himself). That might open the way for a deal between the government and him: unfreeze some assets here in Thailand for his support to ease the political tensions in the country. Would be typically Thai if such a thing would happen.
Giotto
Terry Terrier
12-27-08, 00:34
So Thaksin's proxies are gone, under the guise of cleaning up Thailand's politics. We now have a Foreign Minister who likes to close down the country's airports so that he can get down and boogie, and a couple of other senior ministers who have recently retired (or have they?) from being leading pimps in Bangkok.
Anyone still think this is about political integrity?
http://www.prachatai.com/english/news.php?id=911
Pravit Rojanaphruk , The Nation
24 December 2008
.........
lol.
the man who was at the airport giving speeches, who is quoted as saying it was "fun" shutting the airports down, now says come on back, all is fine.
yep, the pad man turned new foreign minister.
http://www.bangkokpost.com/news/local/8811/kasit-tells-the-world-it's-business-as-usual
Terry Terrier
12-28-08, 05:17
There was a fucking hilarious report in today's UK Daily Mirror about Sven Goran Ericsson's final few days of tenure at Manchester City Football Club which took place in the centre of Bangkok. Frank took Sven and his management team to a karaoke bar (apparently against Sven's better judgement of going to a sextourist bar), where he regaled Sven with the Clash song: "Should I Stay Or Should I Go?", and invited Sven to karaoke with him, only to get the droll reply: "No. Absolutely not. You are the big star in this town."
I only read a hard copy earlier and can't, for the life of me, find an online link to this story. Can anyone else?
I would suggest its all part of a misinformation campaign, to try to tear down his influence in Thailand.
...
I think at least the Farang here in Thailand should open their eyes for facts. And there are facts about Thaksin, which should not simply be ignored. I also don't think that people in the North / North-East will turn away from him only because his foreign assets are only worth USD 500 Mio now.
Just some facts, there are so many more. The Ample Rich Saga:
http://www.nationmultimedia.com/2006/01/27/headlines/index.php?news=headlines_19764598.html
http://www.nationmultimedia.com/2007/04/04/opinion/opinion_30031053.php
http://www.nationmultimedia.com/2007/04/24/headlines/headlines_30032560.php
On the other hand I don't doubt that the Thaksin administration were setting up programs to especially help the North / North-East. And though those programs are quite "thin" in my POV - he did it, and he receives the support of the people in return of that. That's ok.
Looking at all facts I would not support a man who obviously uses legal loopholes to save taxes on capital gains, I dont see him having the integrity to be Thai PM. The TRT/PPP/PT should find somebody who really can proceed where Thaksin lost it.
If we then see what problems Thailand faces for 2009 I really find it necessary that both camps sit together and talk for the benefit of Thailand. Increasing unimployment, lower or even no growth, a slump in tourism and exports, lower world market prices (rice / rubber) - all that will have a major impact on the Thai enonomy next year. I don't want to analyze the reasons for all that (global recession, airport closure) - but it is now the time to move forward and tackle the problem.
The ongoing polarization campaign is not helpful, and all responsible politicians should try to stop it. That Thaksins camp does not do this creates more doubts about his political credibility. It is possible that he declared his return to politics only because he wants to clear his frozen assets in Thailand. His divorce is another indication for this option. And that is not a good motivation for Thailand. He should send a message to his supporters: "People, Thank you for supporting me, but this is a time of crisis, and we had now trouble enough during the past few years. Give the goverment a chance to implement its politics. The next general elections will come, and then we will be back."
The main political players in this country should fix their problems the old traditional Thai way. Meet somewhere in a small group together with a mediator, and struck a deal. Let Thaksin return, let him/his children pay some taxes, set his court sentences on probation or even give him a royal pardon, give him access to his assets and take his commitment to only invest in Thailand, not in overseas - and in return he does not get involved in politics any more. Give him a rest, give him peace.
And then build a coalition govermnent based on strong parties, even Democrats and TRT/PPP/PT together - (why not?). Concentrate on healing the political rift in Thailand, consolidation, and tackle the economical and social problems of the country. And - put the PAD on trial to restore investor confidence.
I know that all this is difficult to do - especially because it is necessary to struck that deal within the regulations of the actual Thai law. If this is not done the legal way it will again hurt investor confidence. But it should be possible somehow.
If this political farce is not solved quickly everybody in Thailand will suffer the consequences.
Giotto
Giotto, you are missing the point.
The democratically elected government has been evicted by a small Elite excercising "above the law".
How can you now say that they shoudl all sit down and make a corrupt agreement to "move forward" ?
The only way to solve this now is :
Revoke all the 5 year politcial bans.
Have an election.
PAD/Elite must respect the election results.
Thats it. Simple.
The good thing about the drop in tourism and exports is that its alleged that the big money Thai's (Elite) are now moving money into Euro's and Yen, which means a severe baht devaluation to boost exports and tourism should commence when the tourist season ends around April. The new government will claim its part of the stimulus package, but of course the Elite will make loads of baht out of it as they are in the know already.
I think at least the Farang here in Thailand should open their eyes for facts. And there are facts about Thaksin, which should not simply be ignored. I also don't think that people in the North / North-East will turn away from him only because his foreign assets are only worth USD 500 Mio now.
Just some facts, there are so many more. The Ample Rich Saga:
http://www.nationmultimedia.com/2006/01/27/headlines/index.php?news=headlines_19764598.html
http://www.nationmultimedia.com/2007/04/04/opinion/opinion_30031053.php
http://www.nationmultimedia.com/2007/04/24/headlines/headlines_30032560.php
On the other hand I don't doubt that the Thaksin administration were setting up programs to especially help the North / North-East. And though those programs are quite "thin" in my POV - he did it, and he receives the support of the people in return of that. That's ok.
Looking at all facts I would not support a man who obviously uses legal loopholes to save taxes on capital gains has the moral integrity to be Thai PM. The TRT/PPP/PT should find somebody who really can proceed where Thaksin lost it.
If we then see what problems Thailand faces for 2009 I really find it necessary that both camps sit together and talk for the benefit of Thailand. Increasing unimployment, lower or even no growth, a slump in tourism and exports, lower world market prices (rice / rubber) - all that will have a major impact on the Thai enonomy next year. I don't want to analyze the reasons for all that (global recession, airport closure) - but it is now the time to move forward and tackle the problem.
The ongoing polarization campaign is not helpful, and all responsible politicians should try to stop it. That Thaksins camp does not do this creates more doubts about his political credibility. It is possible that he declared his return to politics only because he wants to clear his frozen assets in Thailand. His divorce is another indication for this option. And that is not a good motivation for Thailand. He should send a message to his supporters: "People, Thank you for supporting me, but this is a time of crisis, and we had now trouble enough during the past few years. Give the goverment a chance to implement its politics. The next general elections will come, and then we will be back."
The main political players in this country should fix their problems the old traditional Thai way. Meet somewhere in a small group together with a mediator, and struck a deal. Let Thaksin return, let him/his children pay some taxes, set his court sentences on probation or even give him a royal pardon, give him access to his assets and take his commitment to only invest in Thailand, not in overseas - and in return he does not get involved in politics any more. Give him a rest, give him peace.
And then build a coalition govermnent based on strong parties, even Democrats and TRT/PPP/PT together - (why not?). Concentrate on healing the political rift in Thailand, consolidation, and tackle the economical and social problems of the country. And - put the PAD on trial to restore investor confidence.
I know that all this is difficult to do - especially because it is necessary to struck that deal within the regulations of the actual Thai law. If this is not done the legal way it will again hurt investor confidence. But it should be possible somehow.
If this political farce is not solved quickly everybody in Thailand will suffer the consequences.
Giotto
A kinder, gentler protest.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/28408523/
http://www.bangkokpost.com/breaking_news/breakingnews.php?id=135630
Giotto, you are missing the point.
The democratically elected government has been evicted by a small Elite excercising "above the law".Easy2007,
I think that everybody who does NOT realize the actual problems (and the upcoming ones) misses the point. It is time to end this political gambling show, the risk is too high, that as a result all Thais will suffer.
I don't see that the actual Abhisit government is not "democratically elected". The TRT/PPP/PT had no absolute majority before, and had to build a coalition with other parties. Nothing else happened right now. Additionally factions from the TRT/PPP/PT support the new government, obviously some internal power struggle takes place in the Thaksin camp. Formally all this is a democractic process, whether we like it or not.
BTW: in the last general election there was only about 100,000 votes difference between Democrats and TRT/PPP/PT.
How can you now say that they shoudl all sit down and make a corrupt agreement to "move forward" ?Why not? And why has it to be a corrupt agreement?
The only way to solve this now is :
Revoke all the 5 year politcial bans.How could this be justified?
Have an election.Before 2 TRT/PPP/PT lead governments had the chance to call new elections, and they did not. But they also did not govern. Now the power changed and the same people suddenly call for elections. That only shows weakness and desperation to me.
PAD/Elite must respect the election results.And then? The political rift will not heal at all then. A better way would be a coalition government for some time, including all major parties. And then general elections afterwards.
Thats it. Simple.I don't think it is that simple, if you really want to calm things down and tackle the actual problems.
The good thing about the drop in tourism and exports is that its alleged that the big money Thai's (Elite) are now moving money into Euro's and Yen, which means a severe baht devaluation to boost exports and tourism should commence when the tourist season ends around April. The new government will claim its part of the stimulus package, but of course the Elite will make loads of baht out of it as they are in the know already.I don't know where you get your knowledge about currency movements in and out of Thailand from, but up to now the THB is surprisingly stable for a political crisis of this dimension. The government will most likely try to weaken the THB a bit to make it more attractive for investors to invest in Thailand and cheaper for tourist visiting the country. But the means of politics in regards of the valuation of a currency are limited. If the economy will get severely hurt the THB will weaken, no matter whether the rich people in Thailand (old AND new elite) move their money somewhere.
And I don't think that it would be a good idea for wealthy people to move money into Euros or Yen at the present time. The Yen was very strong in 2008, due to investors rewinding their carry trades, and the export industry in Japan gets increasingly hurt because of this development. What will most likely follow is a deep recession in Japan, which will weaken the Yen later next year. The Euro is a gamble, it moves like a ping pong ball at the moment. The wealthy people will be better off to simply leave their THBs in Thailand.
Giotto
Easy2007,
I think that everybody who does NOT realize the actual problems (and the upcoming ones) misses the point. It is time to end this political gambling show, the risk is too high, that as a result all Thais will suffer.
I don't see that the actual Abhisit government is not "democratically elected". The TRT/PPP/PT had no absolute majority before, and had to build a coalition with other parties. Nothing else happened right now. Additionally factions from the TRT/PPP/PT support the new government, obviously some internal power struggle takes place in the Thaksin camp. Formally all this is a democractic process, whether we like it or not.
BTW: in the last general election there was only about 100,000 votes difference between Democrats and TRT/PPP/PT.So how do we include all the solidiers who were ordered (and that means they have no choice as its a direct order) to vote against the PPP?
So how do we take it into account that the EC has been red carding PPP MP's like flies, but allowed most other parties MP's to get away with offences much more obvious ?
Why was TRT itself dissolved and yet the Democrats who were equally guilty not dissolved ?
Why was the last election held under Martial Law in places ? What were the Army involved in the last election "explaining" to people who they should vote for ?
The list goes on and on.
Why not? And why has it to be a corrupt agreement?If a coalition is put together to keep all parties happy then it will more corrupt, as the way its put together is corrupt, to allow all to be corrupt, and have a slice of corruption.
How could this be justified?Because many Democrat's have been allowed to get away with no red card, but most PPP ones got a straight red.
Before 2 TRT/PPP/PT lead governments had the chance to call new elections, and they did not. But they also did not govern. Now the power changed and the same people suddenly call for elections. That only shows weakness and desperation to me.
Why should they call a new election, they were just voted in.
And then? The political rift will not heal at all then. A better way would be a coalition government for some time, including all major parties. And then general elections afterwards.The only way to resolve it now is instant elections and all parties TOLD TO RESPECT the results, no more PAD, no more PAD sponsors.
The wealthy people will be better off to simply leave their THBs in Thailand.GiottoThe wealthy always move their money out before the Baht is devalued, and back in afterwards, if you do not you are kicking a gift horse in the mouth.
So how do we include all the solidiers who were ordered (and that means they have no choice as its a direct order) to vote against the PPP?LOL. Now I could argue like TT - they can take the order and vote as they want :) ... And you don't really believe that Army Generals are so stupid to issue ORDERS (which can be followed up) about how soldiers have to vote, do you? --- But if, this many millions of soldiers make the difference, for sure! Or - may be not, if we think about all the votes bought by Thaksin :) ... Anyway, does that really make a difference? If you look at total numbers the last general election was quite close.
So how do we take it into account that the EC has been red carding PPP MP's like flies, but allowed most other parties MP's to get away with offences much more obvious ?Easy, that DOES NOT CHANGE THE TOTAL NUMBER OF VOTERS! Funny argumentation!
Why was TRT itself dissolved and yet the Democrats who were equally guilty not dissolved ?Who says that the Democrats were equally guilty? I thought courts are deciding about that. And there were Democrats red-carded too, as well as MPs from other parties.
Why was the last election held under Martial Law in places ? What were the Army involved in the last election "explaining" to people who they should vote for ?I don't know! I don't think that the army has a propaganda machine like Thaksin has. This is another argument which does not help anybody to understand Thai politics - its pure demagogy!
The list goes on and on.Obviously the list is quite short and contain no facts at all.
If a coalition is put together to keep all parties happy then it will more corrupt, as the way its put together is corrupt, to allow all to be corrupt, and have a slice of corruption.Possible. But in this situation this solution is better than letting the whole country go down the hill because some yellow shirts and red shirt supporter completely lost it! And if Thaksin were that great politician as you describe him, if he were really acting to the benefit of Thailand, then he would propose this solution, not me :) !
Because many Democrat's have been allowed to get away with no red card, but most PPP ones got a straight red.Wrong facts, there WERE RED CARDS against Democrats! And - have been allowed by whom? That is all the Thaksin propaganda, the laws applied for the TRT/PPP/PT MPs were applied for the Democrats and other parties, too.
Why should they call a new election, they were just voted in.That's not the point. The point is that the same people suddenly change their argumentation. Should we call it "Newin effect" :) ?
The only way to resolve it now is instant elections and all parties TOLD TO RESPECT the results, no more PAD, no more PAD sponsors.The only way ... there is nothing like that in politics. There are always many options, and if you were a real democrat you would also accept, if things happen, which you don't like to happen. It is not necessarily "the only way" or "undemocratic" just because its does not match with your political dreams or ideas.
The wealthy always move their money out before the Baht is devalued, and back in afterwards, if you do not you are kicking a gift horse in the mouth.This is again a very "clever" comment. It is so "clever" that there is no necessity to comment on it. Your knowledge about the currency market is obviously as significant as your knowledge of political FACTS in Thailand.
Final comment:
If even you as a farang are not willing to compromise, then I really don't want to know how polarized the less informed groups of Thai people are, who get their information only from propaganda machines. And that is dangerous for Thailand!
Giotto
There are lots of indications that the catastrophe for Thailand is on its way already (Bloomberg):
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=aHsO7.6mE0sA&refer=home
Has anybody an idea what impact such a crash of the Japanese economy would have for Thailand? Thailand produces parts / products for many Japanese companies. Besides the agricultural exports this is the biggest part of the Thai export industry.
http://www.bangkokpost.com/business/economics/8921/industrial-output-at-seven-year-low
Industrial Output on seven-year low. Lay-offs were already seen in November (70,000 jobs lost), but that's just the start. Estimations from different angencies range between 500,000 and 1,500,000 jobs that could be lost in the next 6 months.
...
There are other potests going on, on a daily basis, which never make the media. For example, I live quite close to the long-established and very old Klong Toey market, where angry and sometimes violent protests are a daily occurence, because the government wants to take back the land. There have been bombs going off, injuring people - 3 just this week. There was another large explosion last night. There have been fires intentionally set. With the PAD and the UDD, Thais have suddenly woken up to the power of protest. Large numbers of protests have been happening in recent weeks at various locations in the provinces because of factories failure to pay proper bonuses and a general violation of worker's rights, not to mention large scale layoffs, without severance pay. So, expect to see any number of angry mobs suddenly appearing in the streets with the requisite looting and mayhem. There's a sense of entitlement among the masses, which isn't a bad thing, but which will not be fullfilled by the ruling classes, resulting in violence.
Overall, this country is already on the edge of the abyss, if not already spiralling down into it. Who, in his right mind would want to be here, unless sufficiently insulated?
...
I took this from the "Living in Thailand" thread - it describes exactly what I expect, too. We see at the moment smaller protests for many reasons - including e.g. the listing of a alcoholic beverage company at the SET (withdrawn now). In general I appreciate this development towards more freedom and democracy, all this was unthinkable 20 years ago.
If now the economy turns downwards dramatically, many people loose their jobs - what will happen?
Many people will return home to the rural areas, looking for jobs there. But with the collapse of the world market prices for rice and rubber the situation is not much better there at all. There are no jobs, and the farmers have to fight for their own survival already. Some villages are still organized with in a kind of "self sufficiency" system - they basically produce what they need, and this villages should experience no major problems. But areas which were producing for the export will be hurt, and suffer. The furniture industry around Chiang Mai - what happens if the orders are not there any more, the prices are dropping, and the people who make their living with the woodwork, suddenly have no income?
Now let's take the actual process of political polarization into consideration - those people don't understand much about global recession, lower demand and dropping world market prices - they will blame the government for what happens to them! And the army who is said to have installed this government. And the Bangkok middle class / elites, who are rich and get all the money, but the poor in the North / North-East are suffering. Politics simplified and distributed to the rural areas, I call it propaganda.
Protests can then easily develop into riots under this circumstances, people without work, without money coming to Bangkok demanding help, mobs in the streets, looting, violence...
And then the Worst Case Scenario: The beloved Father dies...
Then Thailand will explode!!! Nobody will be safe in this country then, especially not farangs, after years of anti-farang politics in this country.
It is irresponsible what the red and yellow shirt protestors are doing at the moment, and all who support them. Playing political games / developing the Thai democracy is one thing - but in the actual situation everybody should concentrate on mastering the crisis which is clearly visible at the horizon already.
Giotto
Giotto,
In answer to your points.
LOL. Now I could argue like TT. They can take the order and vote as they want . And you don't really believe that Army Generals are so stupid to issue ORDERS (which can be followed up) about how soldiers have to vote, do you?.-- But if, this many millions of soldiers make the difference, for sure! Or. May be not, if we think about all the votes bought by Thaksin . Anyway, does that really make a difference? If you look at total numbers the last general election was quite close. It makes a massive difference in terms of total MP's and therefore the ability to be the ruling party. One would have thought even someone as clearly dumb as yourself could understand that, but hey, you surprise us all day by day.
Easy, that DOES NOT CHANGE THE TOTAL NUMBER OF VOTERS! Funny argumentation! [QUOTE]What are you on about, it changes the landscape again when the MP is red carded as this popular local figure then cannot fight in the re-election.
[QUOTE=Giotto]Who says that the Democrats were equally guilty? I thought courts are deciding about that. And there were Democrats red-carded too, as well as MPs from other parties. The OAG recommended both the TRT and Democrats be dissolved, however, under the coup appointed system only the TRT were.
I don't know! I don't think that the army has a propaganda machine like Thaksin has. This is another argument which does not help anybody to understand Thai politics. Its pure demagogy! LOL. Well you do not know or understand Thailand then, thats for sure.
Obviously the list is quite short and contain no facts at all. You are starting to become desperate with your attempted arrogance. Are you German? That might explain the arrogance?
Possible. But in this situation this solution is better than letting the whole country go down the hill because some yellow shirts and red shirt supporter completely lost it! And if Thaksin were that great politician as you describe him, if he were really acting to the benefit of Thailand, then he would propose this solution, not me !
Wrong facts, there WERE RED CARDS against Democrats! And. Have been allowed by whom? That is all the Thaksin propaganda, the laws applied for the TRT/PPP/PT MPs were applied for the Democrats and other parties, too.
That's not the point. The point is that the same people suddenly change their argumentation. Should we call it "Newin effect" ?
The only way. There is nothing like that in politics. There are always many options, and if you were a real democrat you would also accept, if things happen, which you don't like to happen. It is not necessarily "the only way" or "undemocratic" just because its does not match with your political dreams or ideas.
This is again a very "clever" comment. It is so "clever" that there is no necessity to comment on it. Your knowledge about the currency market is obviously as significant as your knowledge of political FACTS in Thailand.
Final comment:
If even you as a farang are not willing to compromise, then I really don't want to know how polarized the less informed groups of Thai people are, who get their information only from propaganda machines. And that is dangerous for Thailand!
Giotto
Try again to finish the reply.
Wrong facts, there WERE RED CARDS against Democrats! And. Have been allowed by whom? That is all the Thaksin propaganda, the laws applied for the TRT/PPP/PT MPs were applied for the Democrats and other parties, too. This was all done under the coup appointed system, the ones who overthrew Thaksin and obviously by having a coup detested and hated him. All the judicuary was under the CNS, as were all investigative organisations. Are you forgetting the coup, the appointments and the CNS? Never heard of the phrase "token gesture"?
That's not the point. The point is that the same people suddenly change their argumentation. Should we call it "Newin effect"? Elections cost money, cost time and the party with the most votes and most MP's was in power, representing the people. Why should they call an election especially when it was known they would be dissolved. Now the minorities are in power after being requested to, as is said, by the Army/PAD, not the people, then why should their not be massive calls for an election?
The only way. There is nothing like that in politics. There are always many options, and if you were a real democrat you would also accept, if things happen, which you don't like to happen. It is not necessarily "the only way" or "undemocratic" just because its does not match with your political dreams or ideas. This started with a coup. And everything since the coup has been a total F*** Up. Let me guess, you supported the coup to get rid of that Evil Thaksin as everything is his fault and Thailand has no history of any corruption by any person ever, except for Evil Thaksin? LOL
This is again a very "clever" comment. It is so "clever" that there is no necessity to comment on it. Your knowledge about the currency market is obviously as significant as your knowledge of political FACTS in Thailand. Wait 3 months, allow the Democrats to be in control of the Finance Ministry and then watch the baht from early Spring onwards.
FACTS. I bet if you were alive you would have been one of those hanging blasphemous people who dared say the Earth was round. The FACTS all said it was flat.
FACTS, in Thailand? You really are showing you know very little. FACTS can change by the hour, the day, depending on who is in control and who is paying for money.
Perhaps you should do some studies on Thailand?
Final comment:
If even you as a farang are not willing to compromise, then I really don't want to know how polarized the less informed groups of Thai people are, who get their information only from propaganda machines. And that is dangerous for Thailand! Your arrogance is what is making YOU the one who will not COMPROMISE.
So let me ask you this?
Are the PAD protective of the 2007 constitution because?
A/ They hate that evil Thaksn so much and are so scared of his evil that they must protect basic changes being proposed which WOULD NOT HELP THAKSIN AT ALL DIRECTLY, MERELY ALLOWING THE FORMER TRT PEOPLE TO BE MP's AGAIN, so they could contest elections, which they would still have to win by public support prior to having power again.
B/ They are protecting it as the 2007 constitution gives those who organised the coup immunity from their actions. If the "Peoples Charter" which was ripped up by the coup leaders and thrown into the bin were to come back into force, all the CNS leaders and coup supporters could be tried for treason under the last charter.
So which one is it? A or B?
Something to laugh:
http://www.nationmultimedia.com/2008/12/31/politics/politics_30092226.php
That's the level of political confrontation we are dealing with here in Thailand at the moment. The supporters of the PTP block the parliament, and after the government moved the session to the Foreign Ministry the PTP will now lodge a "petition with international organisations - and a court challenge".
Don't this people have something to useful to do? Something productive?
Giotto
Lover Boy #2
12-31-08, 05:21
You are starting to become desperate with your attempted arrogance. Are you German? That might explain the arrogance?
Is this really necessary? There are a lot of different nationalities on this forum....if this type of stuff starts, it will be hard to stop.
Is this really necessary? There are a lot of different nationalities on this forum....if this type of stuff starts, it will be hard to stop.Your right, this kind of belligerent arrogance that Giotto attempts to introduce into his posting in order to start baiting for abuse in replies, its disgusting.
Therefore I will stop posting on the "Politics" thread and ignore this arrogant, quite stupid person named Giotto.
Last post from me on this thread.
End of story.
its said that the new government are going to use "all possible means" to clamp down on anti-pad and anti-democrat party rhetoric. this means internet bulletin boards too.
they are going to start using the old draconian laws against all who appear to be "anti-pad or anti-democrat party".
best under such circumstances to not post anything at all now, or you might find access to the isg will be banned from within thailand.
welcome to the hell you some of you wanted to create.
be very careful, the democrats are now in power, and their stifling of all free speech is likely to be implemented very fast.
http://www.nationmultimedia.com/breakingnews/read.php?newsid=30088726
earlier investigation into them from may 2008.
http://www.prachatai.com/english/news.php?id=655
so thats it from me, no more political discussion at all, and i would suggest all others now stop.
Lover Boy #2
01-02-09, 03:50
your right, this kind of belligerent arrogance that giotto attempts to introduce into his posting in order to start baiting for abuse in replies, its disgusting.
therefore i will stop posting on the "politics" thread and ignore this arrogant, quite stupid person named giotto.
last post from me on this thread.
end of story.
interesting angle....but not bought by me, your logic is equal to a pretty girl that is raped....and some moron says "if she wasn't pretty....this would not have happend". it is only an angle....an angle that makes no sense.
you are violating the tos....and probably better that you go away.
...
Therefore I will stop posting on the "Politics" thread and ignore this arrogant, quite stupid person named Giotto.
...
Easy2007,
Happy New Year to you, all the best for 2009. It will be a difficult year for many people out there, but it will be very difficult for Thailand.
Let's hope that the Thai people learn to compromise and find a way out of this political crisis.
Giotto
The new government approached close allies of Thaksin to start talks / bring him back / whatever:
http://www.bangkokpost.com/breakingnews/135677/suthep-assigned-to-bring-back-thaksin
Mixed responses so far:
http://www.nationmultimedia.com/2009/01/02/politics/politics_30092296.php
Besides all political tactics that might be behind this move - it is the right thing to do in this situation. Let's hope that some reasonable politicians of the opposition camp will jump on this train.
Giotto
Surprisingly:
http://www.bangkokpost.com/news/local/135814/exit-polls-look-good-for-democrats
Giotto
http://edition.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/asiapcf/01/16/thailand.myanmar/index.html
January 16, 2009 -- Updated 1329 GMT (2129 HKT)
Thailand denies whipping refugees on beachesStory Highlights
Thai military denies abusing refugees from Myanmar
Witnesses say ethnic Rohingya whipped face down on tourist beach
Reports say hundreds missing after being towed back out to sea
Next Article in World »
By CNN's Dan Rivers
BANGKOK, Thailand (CNN) -- Thailand's military has denied abusing refugee boat-people from Myanmar after claims some were whipped on a tourist beach and hundreds more left dead or missing after being towed at to sea without food and water.
Photograph released by Thai navy showing a group of illegal immigrants captured on December 12.
Photos showing refugees being made to lie face down on a popular beach and media reports claiming refugees been deliberately lost at sea have sparked concerns for their safety.
The United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees says it is "concerned" about the fate of the Muslim ethnic minority Rohingya people, who have fled from Myanmar's border with Bangladesh.
The agency says it has written a formal note to the Thai Ministry of Foreign Affairs asking for clarification of what is happening.
CNN spoke to one Australian tourist, who declined to be named for fear of being barred from Thailand, who says boat-people were "whipped" by Thai guards on popular diving resort island in the Similan Archipelago last month.
Local media also report claims by Rohingya survivors that the Thai military have been detaining hundreds of them an island called Koh Sai Daeng before towing them back out into open water without supplies.
The survivors say hundreds of them drowned and only the lucky ones made it to the Indian Andaman Islands or Indonesia's Aceh province.
The Thai Navy denies knowledge of the incident.
Rear Admiral Naris Pratumsuwan told CNN "as a normal practice, if Navy finds illegal immigrants, we will hand them over to related authorities, e.g. police or immigration police."
He said he had not received any information on an island where migrants are being detained.
There were reports of another boatload of 46 Rohingya detained by the Thai military Friday, but there was no official confirmation.
The Rohingya have been fleeing persecution of the hard-line military regime in Myanmar, formerly Burma, for years and often seek refuge in Malaysia.
Boat loads of Rohingya arriving in Thailand is nothing new, but non-governmental organizations are increasingly worried about what they say is an apparent change of government policy.
They say the army's Internal Security Operations Command is forcing the Rohingya out to sea rather than deporting them overland back to Myanmar.
"The Thai government is taking highly vulnerable people and risking their lives for political gain," says Refugee International's Sean Garcia says.
"It should be engaging the Burmese government on improving conditions at home for the Rohingya if it wants to stem these flows.
"The Rohingya will continue to make the journey because they have no hope for a better life in Burma. Pushing them back out to sea is not an effective deterrent it just jeopardizes lives."
The Departed
01-19-09, 16:27
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/7836854.stm
Some Aussie asshole got 3 years for insulting him in a book that sold seven copies. Too lenient, if you ask me.
Yes, The Departed, we all love that personage, as required by law.
NicFrenchy
01-20-09, 01:05
Some Aussie asshole
Is he? do you know him?
got 3 years for insulting him in a book that slde seven copies. Too lenient, if you ask me.
Well, let's be grateful no one asked you then. bye bye.
No need to say bye bye to someone who has departed. Only question to The Departed should be: why are you here?
Why someone residing or being physically in Thailand would write anything that could fall under the lese-majesté law is beyond me.
There are many things that are very wrong in Thailand on which it is permissible to write about without getting the Royals involved. If this Australian dude wanted to do that he should have criticized all those filthy politicians for not following the wise teachings of His Majesty The King, who is The Guiding Light of Thailand. Who could jail him for that ?
Old Thai Hand
01-20-09, 17:21
....The Guiding Light of Thailand....
While I agree with what you say about this guy and think he was quite stupid for being so blatant, I have a real problem with Farang (in general...not meaning you) who go 'ga-ga' over Thai cultural symbology and fall lock-step into the trap of Thai nationalist dogma and brainwashing, underpinned as it is by self-serving spin-doctors who have spent 40 years creating an iconographic fantasy.
The reality is far more nasty and sinister than even this guy would dare whisper about.
BTW, a Thai academic was charged today with lese majeste...turned in by the bookstore of Chulalongkorn University, where he teaches. That a university, which is supposed to be a bastion of free-thought and opinion would do something like this is a disgrace. It's just another indication that the right-wing reactionaries have as firm a grip as ever on the throat of this country.
http://www.bangkokpost.com/breakingnews/135939/academic-charged-for-royal-insult
BTW, a Thai academic was charged today with lese majeste...turned in by the bookstore of Chulalongkorn University, where he teaches. That a university, which is supposed to be a bastion of free-thought and opinion would do something like this is a disgrace. It's just another indication that the right-wing reactionaries have as firm a grip as ever on the throat of this country.
http://www.bangkokpost.com/breakingnews/135939/academic-charged-for-royal-insult
Interview with him here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f4GHbZCI2P0&feature=channel
oth,
it is too bad that on a web forum, one cannot see so readily that some comments are meant tongue firmly in cheek. i am well aware that the naked truth about thailand is nearly always very remote from the polished image, regrettably the only one the casual onlooker will see and remember. this being said, one will never be free to discuss this matter until some substantial change happens in the country.
admittedly, totalitarian regimes have a natural tendency to suppress free speech. however, it is very rare that the leaders would be so bold as to make speeches in which they openly say that it is great to oppress the people, to steal state resources for the sole benefit of a small clique and that they work exclusively to perpetuate the iron grip that their clan has on the hapless peasants. quite the contrary, they go on and on about virtues to be upheld, morality to be restored, democracy to be perfected, social values to be celebrated etc. it is quite simple to use their own words and to quote them chapter and verse to criticise actual political behaviours that inevitably do not conform to what is preached and forms the official gospel. in the aftermath of the death of chaiman mao, this tactique was used very effectively by those who opposed the power grab by the successors. they used the words of the deceased tyrant against his successors.
in a totalitarian regime, one cannot confront the men at the top openly. this is worth a bullet in the neck, or at least 15 years of labour camp. either you shut up, or you use the words of the regime against its own self. that way, you might pass for a simpleton who takes official words literally, but you might avoid the nasty consequences of being an enemy of the state.
Old Thai Hand
01-21-09, 16:13
OTH,
It is too bad that on a web forum, one cannot see so readily that some comments are meant tongue firmly in cheek.
Point taken. Good post. I will admit that lately, I've lost my sense of humour or the ability to see it in others. That's probably why I missed the 'tongue in cheek' nature of your remarks. At the moment, I'm experiencing a major, hostile (not to mention, illegal) squeeze from the Thai elite, that will result in the loss of my current job. Fortunately, it looks like it will be a temporary set-back. Still, I'm not in the best mood about anything to do with this wretched country or its "guiding light(s)".
.... I have a real problem with Farang (in general...not meaning you) who go 'ga-ga' over Thai cultural symbology and fall lock-step into the trap of Thai nationalist dogma and brainwashing, underpinned as it is by self-serving spin-doctors who have spent 40 years creating an iconographic fantasy.[/url]
I believe very strongly, that in any country, guests, be it tourists, expats and, even journalists, should behave and respect the current political system and customs, even if they don't like it, or else get out!
Live out your civil liberties at home, but don't offend your hosts!
Old Thai Hand
01-22-09, 01:40
I believe very strongly, that in any country, guests, be it tourists, expats and, even journalists, should behave and respect the current political system and customs, even if they don't like it, or else get out!
Live out your civil liberties at home, but don't offend your hosts!
Perhaps, if you're an expat retired here. But, I contribute significantly to the country, particularly because of where I currently work. More importantly, I pay quite hefty taxes in Thailand. In contrast, a large percentage of the Thai populace pay none. I feel as a result, I'm within my rights to comment on, disagree with and protest against anything in this damn country I feel like.
Perhaps, if you're an expat retired here. But, I contribute significantly to the country, particularly because of where I currently work. More importantly, I pay quite hefty taxes in Thailand. In contrast, a large percentage of the Thai populace pay none. I feel as a result, I'm within my rights to comment on, disagree with and protest against anything in this damn country I feel like.
If I were you, I'd be careful.
I'm told the Bangkok Hilton is not girl friendly. :)
NicFrenchy
01-22-09, 03:50
I believe very strongly, that in any country, guests, be it tourists, expats and, even journalists, should behave and respect the current political system and customs, even if they don't like it, or else get out!
Live out your civil liberties at home, but don't offend your hosts!
Really? so why is it that Arabs and Muslims around the world want to push Sharia Law no matter which country they are in?
I believe very strongly, that in any country, guests, be it tourists, expats and, even journalists, should behave and respect the current political system and customs, even if they don't like it, or else get out!
Live out your civil liberties at home, but don't offend your hosts!
Virtually all my friends and colleagues, being educated middle class and centrist to moderately left, are highly critical of the institution which may not be mentioned. Of course they are only so in private. I do have a few conservative friends, but even they are not so in thrall to that institution as your average ignorant in the street. If I hewed to the official line in private conversation with these educated folk, they'd probably doubt my veracity, and/or call me a fascist!
One needs to remember that what is presented as a universal part of Thai culture is partly just a media marketing campaign. True, it has been effective, and true, there is a good deal of real feeling in the simple, credulous populace, but, behind this facade, there is a lot of criticism going on. No doubt this is why the official myth must be backed up by the legal system.
It is very difficult to know what Thais really think about pretty much anything and about this hyper-touchy topic in particular. I gather there is a strict delimitation between the institution and the person. The august octogenarian has been around for son long that hardly anybody remembers what was before. Hardly anybody would criticise the current monarch, partly because of the long reign, partly because of the very many good deeds that have been so cleverly publicised, partly because of the personal dignity displayed by HM.
As time went, the revered figure started fading away, and other players appeared on the picture. They had been around for long, but nobody really paid much attention. Now it seems that there is nobody who can command enough respect and prestige to carry the monarchy into a new reign.
I suppose that many Thai citizens realise that the current huge divide of the Thai public opinion cannot be healed within the existing system, and the monarchy has worked so diligently to identify itself with the status quo that it will have to go. Many people remember that indeed HM succeeded his late brother (whose reign had barely begun when he died), but that before King Ananda there had been no king on the throne for more than a decade and that monarchy was restored as part of a deal between political factions of the time.
I think that more and more people are thinking that although for many reasons HM still commands respect, the monarchy, as an institution, is not inherently essential for the continuation of the Thai state.
Cunning Stunt
01-23-09, 17:32
But, I contribute significantly to the country, particularly because of where I currently work. More importantly, I pay quite hefty taxes in Thailand. In contrast, a large percentage of the Thai populace pay none. I feel as a result, I'm within my rights to comment on, disagree with and protest against anything in this damn country I feel like.
Poor old OTH. Seems to be losing the plot, standing atop his personal clifftop, staring down into the abyss below and screaming into the wind.
I'm sure though that you have already realized that, just because you have contributed financially and maybe physically to this country, does not mean that anyone, except perhaps your 'mates' at ISG, really do give a fuck.
Really? so why is it that Arabs and Muslims around the world want to push Sharia Law no matter which country they are in?
1. Not all Arabs and Muslims do.
2. Those who do, clearly have other concepts of courtesy than I do. But what can you expect of savages.
If I were you, I'd be careful.
I'm told the Bangkok Hilton is not girl friendly.
I am also all for repressing/punishing/silencing and first and foremost deporting all those "guests" who abuse their hosts hospitality.
...I am also all for repressing/punishing/silencing and first and foremost deporting all those "guests" who abuse their hosts hospitality.
Hey, don't include me in that catagory. Just because I advised him to be careful doesn't mean that I agree with the draconian law.
Terry Terrier
01-25-09, 02:41
Easy2007,
Come on, man, you did not want to write in the politics thread any more ... oh, sorry, this is not the politics thread ... but this is about Thai politics, right?
Btw., do I remember correctly that I mentioned Thaksins possible financial problems in the politics thread, and you ruled it out as propaganda from his political enemies?
Giotto
(PS: we better move the discussion to the politics thread, before somebody kicks our arses ! )
....If it were really about 40 Million THB - don't you think that Thaksin would immediately offer a bit more?
We can still discuss this.
We can still discuss this.TT,
Not really necessary:
Thaksin in problems:
http://www.nationmultimedia.com/2008/12/26/politics/politics_30091929.php
http://www.nationmultimedia.com/topstory/30091926/Is-this-the-end-of-the-road-for-Thaksin?
It's not that bad news (except for himself). That might open the way for a deal between the government and him: unfreeze some assets here in Thailand for his support to ease the political tensions in the country. Would be typically Thai if such a thing would happen.
Giotto
I would suggest its all part of a misinformation campaign, to try to tear down his influence in Thailand.
If the media can be made to create enough stories about him the hope will be it feeds down to all and sundry and this will help to turn the people who love him into people who will jump into bed with the others.
...
They know now that any party associated with Thaksin will win the next election, so they should, and likely are, now on to a beefed up misinformation campaign to try to discredit him further.
And the "party associated with Thaksin" also did not win the "next election", the by-election 2 weeks ago was a desaster for PTP. I don't know whether that is already the impact of missing money flow from Thaksin, but the issue was discussed in the papers/internet.
Giotto
The Departed
01-25-09, 18:26
http://www.bangkokpost.com/news/sports/10386/thai-hospitality-was-abused-by-lebanon Very strange this. I admit i don't keep up with Thai football.
As regards insulting HM The King, it seems some academics are out to cause trouble:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jan/23/giles-ji-ungpakorn-arrest-thailand
However, the UN knows his worth: http://www.ptinews.com/pti%5Cptisite.nsf/0/AC947330519D1AA9652575440013EFB5?OpenDocument
Football apart, and given why most of us reside here, we should respect the few taboos the Thais impose. Those who will not do this should f-k off back home as they destroy paradise for the rest of us. HM The King is universally revered, the Thais are a very accommodating people and thye ask so little of us. Just my 2 cents, but that of very many Thais as well.
Traveler1234
01-25-09, 21:32
At the moment, I'm experiencing a major, hostile (not to mention, illegal) squeeze from the Thai elite, that will result in the loss of my current job.
Gee OTH, this is old news, isn't it?
Way off topic but I was lucky enough to be among peaceful millions that celebrated the inauguration of the first African-American president this past week. As bad as it get's here sometimes, lucky we don't have to suffer the indignities of those who live in LOS ;)
My son and I drove down (without tickets) to be among the masses. Back in 1969 I was fortunate enough to make history at Woodstock, 40 yrs later, fortunate enough to see history being made again.
Here's an awesome photo that someone created of the event, along with site for both the author of the picture and the technology he used. Enjoy:
http://gigapan.org/viewGigapanFullscreen.php?auth=033ef14483ee899496648c2b4b06233c - use the zoom function to see you know anyone attending.
http://gigapan.org/viewProfile.php?userid=9286&window_height=579&window_width=1137
http://www.gigapansystems.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=GS&Product_Code=I-B1&Category_Code=GPI
Terry Terrier
01-25-09, 23:24
T1234,
Sorry to be so blunt, but I would've thought that somebody of SE Asian heritage could've come up with something better than a spam post about God Bless America on the ISG Thailand Politics thread?
Terry Terrier
01-25-09, 23:39
And the "party associated with Thaksin" also did not win the "next election", the by-election 2 weeks ago was a desaster for PTP. I don't know whether that is already the impact of missing money flow from Thaksin, but the issue was discussed in the papers/internet.
Giotto
Abhisit is the cleanest major player in Thai politics. Time will tell whether or not he can walk the talk. Thaksin used to say the same sort of things as him. He currently has the broad support of the masses, and he deserves his chance. But he needs to distance himself from his powerful backers very quickly if he wants popular support, and I suspect that, for a variety of reasons, his failure to do so will be his downfall.
abhisit is the cleanest major player in thai politics. time will tell whether or not he can walk the talk. thaksin used to say the same sort of things as him. he currently has the broad support of the masses, and he deserves his chance. but he needs to distance himself from his powerful backers very quickly if he wants popular support, and i suspect that, for a variety of reasons, his failure to do so will be his downfall.agreed, partially :) ...
i think he cannot really distance himself [comepletely] from the people who brought him to power. he will stay in power for some time, but the economic downturn (just starting here in thailand) will then initiate his downfall. he does not have a real chance under this circumstances.
i am also not too impressed about how things developed after he took over power. 3000+ websites blocked by the interior ministry (lese majeste) - is that really the most important problem thailaind has to deal with at the moment? for sure not. and the selection of the fm and other top pad supporters for jobs in the government or as government consultants is a huge political mistake and shows a lack of instinct - he needed to keep distance to that group who is responsible for speeding up the economic downturn of this country and caused huge damage to the international reputation of thailand. and then - the democrats start the discussion about the land reform again, that land reform which brought the chuan lek-pai government down in 1995 - don't they have more important things to do at the moment?
some positive observations: abhisit stays quite neutral and straight in all discussions about legal issues such as the thaksin cases and the issue of filing charges against the pad. he brings that issue up at least once a week - that's not bad. he also doesn't seam to have a too strong liking of power as some of his predecessors (thaksin, samak) had, he is basically a technocrat.
abhisit is a good man, good intentions and targets, well educated, good impression for others on the political stage. but i am not sure that he is strong enough to stay on a way going for technocratic solutions for the actual problems, which might be unpopular sometimes. if he gets too much under the influence of the clique of old thai politicians (from all parties) and starts using their means his downfall will come sooner.
giotto
Point taken. Good post. I will admit that lately, I've lost my sense of humour or the ability to see it in others. That's probably why I missed the 'tongue in cheek' nature of your remarks. At the moment, I'm experiencing a major, hostile (not to mention, illegal) squeeze from the Thai elite, that will result in the loss of my current job. Fortunately, it looks like it will be a temporary set-back. Still, I'm not in the best mood about anything to do with this wretched country or its "guiding light(s)".I guess we'll see you soon in Canada, or the Dubai forum. OTOH, thank god for incompetent government. LOS will remain a premier sex toy destination for years to cum.
Terry Terrier
01-26-09, 12:04
.....And then - the democrats start the discussion about the land reform again, that land reform which brought the Chuan Lek-Pai government down in 1995 - don't they have more important things to do at the moment?
Some think that this is the second instalment of the new regime's payoff to Newin, the first instalment being the public buses contract of course. There is a lot of good quality public land in Buriram and it's surrounds, and it's hard to imagine him having difficulty finding proxies as nominees for that land.
The key to Abhisit's credibility is whether or not he can keep this side of Thai politics to the bare bones of necessity.
Some think that this is the second instalment of the new regime's payoff to Newin, the first instalment being the public buses contract of course. There is a lot of good quality public land in Buriram and it's surrounds, and it's hard to imagine him having difficulty finding proxies as nominees for that land.
...
That would be it. I would laugh my arse off if that happened: It was Newin who brought the Lek-Pai government down in 1995 - he presented cases of the land reform to the parliament, in which people close to the Democratic Party had benefitted from it :) .
Giotto
Man the new PM is getting hammered on the BBC for whipping and towing those refugees out to sea. Reports make Thailand look draconian. All they show are jail houses, young girls getting locked up, over crowding, many died, etc.
The Navy Chief has denied it and the Govt said they are investigating it but here is one of the stories as reported by CNN.
http://edition.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/asiapcf/01/16/thailand.myanmar/index.html
Man the new PM is getting hammered on the BBC for whipping and towing those refugees out to sea. Reports make Thailand look draconian. All they show are jail houses, young girls getting locked up, over crowding, many died, etc.
Stiffoak 571
03-18-09, 20:00
Reds going back on the streets next week. Promising firther action ahead of the "no confidence" vote in parliament. Just in time for my arrival!
Presume they have to get in all the action they can before Songkran. Like December when the Yellows had to find a way to stop before the King's birthday.
Interested in hearing comments and opinions from anyone who's in Thailand right now.
Old Thai Hand
04-13-09, 02:48
The Red Shirts were down here in Pattaya last few days to put an end to the ASEAN conference.
They were pretty damn organized, numerous, and effective. They put the security forces to shame, and could have done anything they wanted. It was their own self-restraint that stopped them from taking over the whole Royal Cliff complex. They wanted to perform a mass protest on site, and they did.
I hear the majority are heading back to Bangkok to carry on with their mission.
To be taken seriously, IMHO
These people are destroying the country. As bad as the PAD were, they were never as big a threat and certainly were never as out of control as these thugs. However, I firmly believe, if the money stopped flowing in to support these guys, their numbers would dwindle dramatically.
Therefore, one immediate solution, (and I mean this seriously) would be for Taksin (and possibly key members of his family) to suffer a terrible "accident".
That would be the end of the Redshirts.
Then, the government should resign over their mishandling of the debacle in Pattaya. There should be an election and everyone - PAD and UDD - accept the results and abide by the decision of the electorate.
Taksin (and possibly key members of his family) to suffer a terrible "accident".
You think that would end it? Wouldn't it just create the need for revenge and recrimination?
These people are destroying the country.
What now? They're doing less than the previous band of thugs paid by the elite - I mean the airport is still open. For now. (I'm terrified as I'm currently in the Bad Place).
Then, the government should resign over their mishandling of the debacle in Pattaya. There should be an election and everyone - PAD and UDD - accept the results and abide by the decision of the electorate.
Practical, but it’s highly unlikely to happen given Thailand’s history of fractious politics. In a country where coups are a way of life, it will take more than practical solution to end what has become the norm in Thailand. Thailand needs an empowering ruler to clean this mess up.
NicFrenchy
04-13-09, 05:08
Practical, but it’s highly unlikely to happen given Thailand’s history of fractious politics. In a country where coups are a way of life, it will take more than practical solution to end what has become the norm in Thailand. Thailand needs an empowering ruler to clean this mess up.
Thailand could have really been Asia's Florida. A great, stress free R&R destination. Instead, look at what they are doing.
Thailand could have really been Asia's Florida. A great, stress free R&R destination. Instead, look at what they are doing.
Well thank god. I'd hate to see a great country reduced to that. Ugh, Florida!
Thailand could have really been Asia's Florida. A great, stress free R&R destination. Instead, look at what they are doing.
Despite all this, it still is the adult male's Disney Land, at least for now.
Old Thai Hand
04-13-09, 05:29
Practical, but it’s highly unlikely to happen given Thailand’s history of fractious politics. In a country where coups are a way of life, it will take more than practical solution to end what has become the norm in Thailand. Thailand needs an empowering ruler to clean this mess up.
Emotionally, the notion of a "Revolution of the Poor" as the reds are now calling it resonates against old-money, power-elite money politics and rampant corruption, that has for far too long placed all the wealth in the hands of a few in Bangkok, and shored up an anachronistic, self-serving monarchist institution, while the vast majority of the populace has lived in Third World poverty and debt.
However, what probably would happen if the revolution actually succeeded would be an intellectual vacuum dominated by skill-less poor attempting to run the business of the country, led by some meglomaniacal leader, with disastrous results for the country's development. Thailand could easily turn into another Zimbabwe.
However something has to give. The country is on the verge of ruin. I was up early this morning and from my balcony, I could see plumes of black smoke rising off in the direction of Dusit. There was also a raucous demonstration at the Klong Toey Market across from intersection of Rachada and Rama IV, near my condo, early this morning. While this is unrelated to the redshirt protest - it has to do with attempts by the Port Authority and property owners to close down the market and evict the long-time vendors, which has turned violent and murderous on several occasions - it is symptomatic of the large amount of discord in this country. While Bangkok us not exactly a war-zone, YET, all of this is quite disturbing, nevertheless.
The PAD built the coffin and The UDD are driving in the nails and sealing it shut. Add in the the global economic crisis and this country is well and truly fucked.
Emotionally, the notion of a "Revolution of the Poor" as the reds are now calling it resonates against old-money, power-elite money politics and rampant corruption, that has for far too long placed all the wealth in the hands of a few in Bangkok, and shored up an anachronistic, self-serving monarchist institution, while the vast majority of the populace has lived in Third World poverty and debt.
Thailand could easily turn into another Zimbabwe.
However something has to give. The country is on the verge of ruin.
Add in the the global economic crisis and this country is well and truly fucked.
Yes, but overall they are not stupid people, they know that people with agendas are ruining their country. The regular people just don’t have the fiat to stop the madness. Thailand needs a real trustworthy leader to step up and take command and control. However, no one seems to trust anyone here, so in the end your two last statements above may turn out to be the most poignant of all.
The classes are wise not to trust one another, of course, as their interests are diametrically opposed, but Prem was such a 'leader'. However to get to the stability of the exploitative eighties it required the slaughters of the seventies.
If I had to predict I'd say some poors are about to get slaughtered. Anyway it seems a lot more likely than a 'revolution'.
These people are destroying the country. As bad as the PAD were, they were never as big a threat and certainly were never as out of control as these thugs. However, I firmly believe, if the money stopped flowing in to support these guys, their numbers would dwindle dramatically.
Therefore, one immediate solution, (and I mean this seriously) would be for Taksin (and possibly key members of his family) to suffer a terrible "accident".
That would be the end of the Redshirts.
Then, the government should resign over their mishandling of the debacle in Pattaya. There should be an election and everyone - PAD and UDD - accept the results and abide by the decision of the electorate.Taksin has been a lying dog forever, his classmates growing up HATED him for being a pathological 16 faced lying hydra of deceit. HIs co-workers in the USA hated him for being a multi-faceted liar that could not control his ambitions.
Ten years ago, Taksin (supposedly a good friend, ) set up Prime Minister Chuan Leekpai, regarding corrupt land deals in Phuket, then fed outrageous lies about him to the Thai people, not just hundreds of times, thousands of times, all over the country. The fact is, it was Taksin HIMSELF that was involved with the corrupt land deals, NOT Leekpai at all! This all came out during the PM'ship of Taksin and the building of the "Graceland Resort" in Phuket where Taksin was a major investor, this was immediatley buried in paperwork in court, with all of the same lawyers and judges involved in the bribery scandals of 2008. Therefore, Taksin should be tried for all the things he did even BEFORE he became Prime Minister, much less what he is facing now.
After denigrating and shaming PM Chuan Leepai for things Chuan never did, (and were never proven, ) lo and behold, Taksin then became PM himself, and his kinglike activities smacked of an surrealism unyet known in Thailand.
The "I am richer than God, and I can do whatever I want, whenever I want" ethic was working. But then, he started to go too far, far beyond what anyone wanted or thought of as being the powers of a Prime Minister.
* Forcing public land to be released for sale then having his wife secretly buy it.
* Allowing the gunning down of paid drug informants because they had information that the police were behind most of the smuggling operations in Chiang Rai (Taksin is a policeman.)
* Avoiding paying taxes by selling his share of company he built on outrageously corrupt activities in the first place, he took the profits and secreted them outside of the country where even if questioned could not be retrieved.
* Mandating a new airport to be built, then generating black corrupt contracts that went to his friends and cohorts in the money madness schemes that had ALREADY gone way too far and were openly and visibly corrupt.
This is just the stuff you see on top of the water now, the surface observable. The real shit is still down below.
OK, sure, now, he is simply trying to get his 76 BILLION Baht, trapped in Thailand, back, but you know what? Same as always, he doesn't care who takes the fall, and in this case it really is the entire Kingdom of Thailand.
The red shirts are essentially the bottom dwelling morons that love the 500 Baht in cash and 60 Baht bottles of Lao Khao that Taksin keeps plying them with. Unlike the PAD, they are generally very poor (and for the most part very ugly looking) guys. Rumors going around about Ya-Ba (methamphetamine+) and serial alcoholism making the rounds in their groups as well. They are simply paid thugs, stupid butt ugly paid thugs.
Taksin will not be sanctioned, if it was going to happen, it already would have. A foreign mercenary should be paid to kidnap and return him to Thailand. He should then be stripped of everything, with no access to his Internationally co-opted corrupt funds, then he should be imprisoned for life, (or simply shoved in front of a firing squad for being the murdering thieving lying dog he is.)
Taksin will not be remembered as a martyr, not in any way shape of form. He will only be remembered as a monster interested in propagating his own self worth, and not caring at all how he did it, then destroying a beautiful little country as a result.
The Taksin family in Chiang Mai; His brother in law, his cousins, et al. They are all two faced corrupted lying thieves from the same fabric as Shinawatra. Initiating and corrupting totally unnecessary construction contracts that involved hundreds of millions of Baht, with the entire city at their mercy, then suffering the consequences. (Completely unneeded but officially mandated streets and roads costing hundreds of millions that were constructed so badly they were basically unusable, then have to be continually repaired at great expense. US mafia type behaviors at their finest. Gosh, can anyone say "Suvarnabhumi" ten times real fast? )
It is time to have done with ALL of them, the entire clan. They have destroyed Thailand, top to bottom. It's time for them to face the music. Get the red shirts out forcibly then get to the Shinawatras, (all of them), have them face trial, then put them all in prison, and get it over with!
Yeah riiight, like that's going to happen. TIT.
Old Thai Hand
04-13-09, 06:58
The classes are wise not to trust one another, of course, as their interests are diametrically opposed, but Prem was such a 'leader'. However to get to the stability of the exploitative eighties it required the slaughters of the seventies.
If I had to predict I'd say some poors are about to get slaughtered. Anyway it seems a lot more likely than a 'revolution'.
You can't have a revolution unless you topple the monarchy. That's never going to happen as long as the current king is alive.
The core group of a few thousand redshirts, who seem to be causing most of the mayhem are akin to football hooligans and lager louts. They aren't interested in anything, certainly not political ideology, but only destruction and busting heads. Therefore, they will be bloodied, more anger will arise, outrages will result and chaos will continue to reign.
I'm just daydreaming here on Soi Phiphat...don't want to go out and get soaked with khlong water.
Reds, yellows, blues...etc. They all claim to love the King.
What if the King -- today -- made an informal decree, "Stop the violence, have an election ASAP, and all parties abide by the results..."
Furthermore, bring in outside observers (from the UN, or ASEAN) to monitor the election. And the King says "live with it."
Plausible, yes. Unlikely, yes. Way too many strings pulling both sides (as OTH has explained in detail during the PAD siege).
But...then everyone could get back to enjoying Songkran BBQs and whiskey sodas.
thailand could have really been asia's florida. a great, stress free r&r destination. instead, look at what they are doing.wait, when i think of fla, i think of six million near-death-experience geriatrics wearing "depends adult [CodeWord131] (http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord131)", an unbearably hot disney world with fading paint, lots of seriously pissed off adult alligators, and even lots more super pissed off clouds of (state bird) 'drop-delta' monster swamp mosquitoes.
then, just as you are getting used to it (!), the evening beckons another swarm: thousands of skin and bone cocaine addled disco floozies sporting cuban accents and a basic requirement of six hours to tell you about their freaking jimmy choo high heels.
fort lauderdale and west palm beach are over-mortgaged to the hilt (a bad attorney's heaven, a good dentist's hell, and about as uplifting as an evening discussing old times with my second ex-wife.)
jacksonville is a cesspool. pensacola is hiv paradise on steroids. and, miami is as dangerous as a quentin tarantino movie, even in the middle of the day (listed #3 city with most violent crimes in the usa. thanks ever so much for the job you did governor jeb bush.)
gosh. did i miss something in the dozen times i've been there?
hell, all in all, reds, yellows, blues inclusive: i'd rather be in thailand. screw those damn [CodeWord131] (http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord131) anyway!
seriously though nic, i catch your drift: thailand blew it when they started believing taksin's über lies about pm chuan leekpai ten years ago. truly the end of the dream as we knew it.
Reds, yellows, blues...etc. They all claim to love the King.
What if the King -- today -- made an informal decree, "Stop the violence, have an election ASAP, and all parties abide by the results..."
Plausible, yes. Unlikely, yes.The King of Thailand is a very well educated, eclectically traveled, highly experienced, upper stratosphere IQ type guy. He knows the difference between what farangs think of an election, and what Thais think of an election.
Ergo, ain't gonna happen.
Starchild2012
04-13-09, 11:11
You can't have a revolution unless you topple the monarchy. That's never going to happen as long as the current king is alive.
The core group of a few thousand redshirts, who seem to be causing most of the mayhem are akin to football hooligans and lager louts. They aren't interested in anything, certainly not political ideology, but only destruction and busting heads. Therefore, they will be bloodied, more anger will arise, outrages will result and chaos will continue to reign.
Well said OTH....as long as king is alive its hard for a revolution....but with wishfull thinking it could have been done if indeed we had Che Gueverra in Thailand :)
Che was an argentine and fought for Cubans.....i think we have amoung us a Brit or an American or German....who will fight for the right of Thai's and become Thailand's Che Gueverra.....anyone :D
NicFrenchy
04-13-09, 11:12
Well thank god. I'd hate to see a great country reduced to that. Ugh, Florida!
1. Either you misunderstood my point or you were sarcastic towards the US
2. A great country? are you kidding? maybe your are too partial to the 200thb bareback pussy available which is far from being representative of LOS
NicFrenchy
04-13-09, 11:25
Che was an argentine and fought for Cubans.....i think we have amoung us a Brit or an American or German....who will fight for the right of Thai's and become Thailand's Che Gueverra.....anyone :D
I wonder which Foreigner would be stupid enough to put his neck on the line for a bunch of people whi in the end won't even be grateful.
Forget it, the best thing to do is to not get involved, that way, these idiots can't blame us for it
I wonder which Foreigner would be stupid enough to put his neck on the line for a bunch of people whi in the end won't even be grateful.
The same foreigner who sponsors and is willing to get married to the first BG he meets.
Or the same foreigner laboring his life away while caring for his new Issan wife and her nuclear and extended family.
Or the same foreigner who wants to abandon his wife and young kid for a BG who had unprotected sex with him.
Or the foreigner who gives 5000B to a BG who essentially told him she was a runner and did run.
Or an English Teacher.
M P Lurker
04-13-09, 14:08
Or an English Teacher.
What's wrong with English teachers. At least some of them are at a superior school teaching mainly Japanese and Korean students that can pay more.
BBC News [UK]
“Thailand’s army has begun an operation to remove anti-government protesters blocking the centre of the capital Bangkok, sparking violent clashes. Forty-nine people were injured as hundreds of soldiers advanced against the crowd at a major road junction close to the landmark Victory Monument. … Thai Prime Minister Abhisit Vejjajiva earlier declared a state of emergency after the protesters, who mostly back ousted PM Thaksin Shinawatra, stopped a major Asian summit in Pattaya. Mr Thaksin has called for a ‘revolution’ against the government. ” (04/12/09)
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/7996241.stm
Shit! I just hope they stay away from the airport for at least another week. I don't want to be stranded here in hell.
Just saw the interview with Thaksin on CNN. He obviously had a really bad day. He really left a lousy impression to the viewers.
Talking about the peaceful protesters demonstrating without any weapons, and the army was shooting and killing them (not a single hospital confirmed any deads up to now!) - and CNN showed in another window how the red shirts attacked a line-up of soldiers with a bus ... Thaksin then spread rumours that the army removed many killed protesters with trucks - an act of desparation, in my POV.
What a disgusting man Thaksin has become now, obviously desperate in his attempt to get his frozen Thai assets back. A revolution? Che? Don't make me laugh. A few thousand red shirted thugs on the roads, completely out of control, that's all.
Giotto
PS: To all the Thaksin supporters:
I am well aware that the press conferences from the hospitals can be government controlled. Nevertheless we would have heard from various sources here in Bangkok if there were real incidents with sharp ammunition - and up to now there is no such info.
The latest: Bangkok residents / vendors clash with red shirts, now we have 2 people dead.
http://www.nationmultimedia.com/breakingnews/30100476/Death-toll-at-Nang-Lerng-Market-clash-rises-to-2
Traveler1234
04-13-09, 18:48
Just saw the interview with Thaksin on CNN. He obviously had a really bad day. He really left a lousy impression to the viewers.
- an act of desparation, in my POV.
What a disgusting man Thaksin has become now, obviously desperate in his attempt to get his frozen Thai assets back.
This is his 'last hurrah'....although I am disappointed the King hasn't somehow intervened or at least "send a signal".
Our CFO just cancelled his visit due to the 'unrest'...silly man. Unfortunately I am still unable to travel for the time being or else would have stopped in long ago!
Old Thai Hand
04-13-09, 18:53
This is his 'last hurrah'....although I am disappointed the King hasn't somehow intervened or at least "send a signal".
I don't believe HM is well enough, mentally or physically to say anything. This is actually part of the problem, IMO.
I don't believe HM is well enough, mentally or physically to say anything. This is actually part of the problem, IMO.Correct.
I heard this question today from my staff: Why is the King not doing anything? I heard it at least 10 times.
That is a big part of the problem.
Giotto
Traveler1234
04-13-09, 19:44
Correct.
I heard this question today from my staff: Why is the King not doing anything? I heard it at least 10 times.
That is a big part of the problem.
Giotto
Just had a telcon with some connected folks in LOS - they say Thaksin's supporters (half of country) are also anti-monarchy now -- which I find hard to believe?
In any case, that is why HM can't 'take a stand' because if Thaksin somehow does make a comeback, HM has to protect the monarchy......
Correct.
I heard this question today from my staff: Why is the King not doing anything? I heard it at least 10 times.
That is a big part of the problem.
GiottoBe carefull Mr Giotto there is majesti. LE; in Thailand they can block website. Do not critize his Mr HM. Who kn. Ows.
NicFrenchy
04-14-09, 00:28
Just had a telcon with some connected folks in LOS - they say Thaksin's supporters (half of country) are also anti-monarchy now -- which I find hard to believe?
In any case, that is why HM can't 'take a stand' because if Thaksin somehow does make a comeback, HM has to protect the monarchy......
No way, that is nonsense. As OTH said below, HM is too ill to be able to speak.
Old Thai Hand
04-14-09, 03:30
Just had a telcon with some connected folks in LOS - they say Thaksin's supporters (half of country) are also anti-monarchy now -- which I find hard to believe?
In any case, that is why HM can't 'take a stand' because if Thaksin somehow does make a comeback, HM has to protect the monarchy......
This is rubbish.
I would also question whether half the country supports him anymore after the outrages of the last few days. People are incredibly angry at the redshirts and I doubt now that Taksin can accomplish anything in his agenda. Many Thais are accusing him of treason for orchestrating this. While I doubt that it could be called treason, I'm sure that as the instigator, he's broken the law and this should be added to his slate.
The question on my mind is...why don't they simply revoke his passport to force him back and then throw him in jail? The man's a convicted felon.
...I would also question whether half the country supports him anymore after the outrages of the last few days...
What 'outrages'? You mean the government's? You exhibit a double standard when we think back to the actions of the other side's mobs a year or so ago.
In any case I don't find it in the least hard to believe that a majority of the country fails to love their patriarch as required by law. Privately at least they will admit the truth, but of course publicly they still pretend.
Old Thai Hand
04-14-09, 04:19
What 'outrages'? You mean the government's? You exhibit a double standard when we think back to the actions of the other side's mobs a year or so ago.
In any case I don't find it in the least hard to believe that a majority of the country fails to love their patriarch as required by law. Privately at least they will admit the truth, but of course publicly they still pretend.
I was referring to half the country supporting Taksin. This was his last throw of the dice and he's lost. But, he's still incredibly dangerous.
re: outrages
Are you serious? Have you read the Thai newspapers or watched the news, at all?
No double standard. The PAD (who I believe should have been charged, btw) never killed anyone. They didn't loot, burn and destroy. They broke the law and caused a lot of disruption to the country. I don't support their actions. But, their actions were largely peaceful.
This lot beat up several residents in and around their own property, and murdered 2 people trying to protect their homes. They have looted shops on Phetchaburi Road near the Ratchawithi intersection. They fired on a mosque. They have threatened to blow up gas tankers. I saw these guys on the street with large green propane tanks which they used to burn the buses.
As far as I'm concerned, the troops have shown incredible restraint, probably too much restraint in dealing with these thugs.
The UDD or DAAD or whatever they're calling themselves today have lost any shred of credibility.
Don't even attempt your socialist, power-to-the-people rant here, Opebo. It simply doesn't apply to these criminals.
...
re: outrages
Are you serious? Have you read the Thai newspapers or watched the news, at all?
No double standard. The PAD (who I believe should have been charged, btw) never killed anyone. They didn't loot, burn and destroy. They broke the law and caused a lot of disruption to the country. I don't support their actions. But, their actions were largely peaceful.
This lot beat up several residents in and around their own property, and murdered 2 people trying to protect their homes. They have looted shops on Phetchaburi Road near the Ratchawithi intersection. They fired on a mosque. They have threatened to blow up gas tankers. I saw these guys on the street with large green propane tanks which they used to burn the buses.
As far as I'm concerned, the troops have shown incredible restraint, probably too much restraint in dealing with these thugs.
...
Old Thai Hand,
Seconded, that's exactly what I think, based on the info I have at the moment.
I want to outline this part of your report:
As far as I'm concerned, the troops have shown incredible restraint, probably too much restraint in dealing with these thugs.
I hope it stays like this - but I have my doubts, based on previous events. Once one side gets the impression that it is in control of the situation misuse of power is more likely.
Giotto
LittleBigMan
04-14-09, 04:56
Not taking any side! As many have express that we are just visitors but nevertheless we think in silents here.
As OTH, expressed the Man is too sick! You could see it a year or so ago less and less appearances! His son and family has been making all the stops and personally haven't seen a recent photo's of him since the beginning of the year. Last time I saw photo's was him leaving the hospital in a wheelchair.
Not knowing the history of this country like many of you I will just make a uneducated guess and that is what leaders in the past in Thailand hasn't been somewhat corrupt. In Thaksin case he just didn't show enough respect for the Man that was his biggest mistake in my opinion. His head got too big for him! so they are after him and his family! If the U.S. was Thailand, Bush and his family along with Cheney would be in a big pile of shit in trouble now. Another mistake is they went after Thaksin in Hong Kong, a place he feels nearly right at home, trying to get the govenment to draw up a treaty to extradict him back to Thailand. This not only brought him out but also his money to make a last stand maybe? Prior to that he seem to be content with the situation.
I can't back this shit up it's just a opinion I have!
LBM
It's over, at least for now.
http://www.bangkokpost.com/news/politics/140512/demonstrators-will-disperse-leader
It's over, at least for now.
http://www.bangkokpost.com/news/politics/140512/demonstrators-will-disperse-leaderhttp://www.newsnow.co.uk/h/World+News/Asia/Thailand
Like to AD THIS WEBSITE here you can follow minute by minute the latest development of the so called revolution. There is also a report on france tv24 that from taksin. They have now arms from Cambodia to fight back or so called revolution. To follow.
Traveler1234
04-18-09, 14:14
This is rubbish.
I would also question whether half the country supports him anymore after the outrages of the last few days. People are incredibly angry at the redshirts and I doubt now that Taksin can accomplish anything in his agenda. Many Thais are accusing him of treason for orchestrating this. While I doubt that it could be called treason, I'm sure that as the instigator, he's broken the law and this should be added to his slate.
The question on my mind is...why don't they simply revoke his passport to force him back and then throw him in jail? The man's a convicted felon.
There's an interesting update in The Economist re the health of the king, the attitude of the countryside masses, etc. etc.....I lost the link but one can easily find it.
As far as Thaksin is concerned, I share your sentiments but getting him back in town, throwing him in jail would cause a bigger problem at this time. Look at Taiwan and the former President Chen debacle going on now!
There's an interesting update in The Economist re the health of the king, the attitude of the countryside masses, etc. etc.....I lost the link but one can easily find it...
After last week's street fighting, the world is watching Thailand, but does Thailand care?
The Economist has decided not to distribute its hard copy magazine in Thailand this week -- (it's a free country, right?) -- but the links to the online articles on Thailand are here:
http://www.economist.com/world/asia/displaystory.cfm?story_id=13496330
http://www.economist.com/world/asia/displaystory.cfm?story_id=13496103&CFID=51270184&CFTOKEN=83239104
Also:
Thitinan Pongsudhirak is a professor of political science at Chulalongkorn University has an opinion/editorial piece in today's New York Times:
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/18/opinion/18thitinan.html?th&emc=th
And, a summary of international headlines is found in the Bangkok Bugle:
http://www.bangkokbugle.com/2009/04/bangkoks-bruised-and-battered-image.html
Old Thai Hand
04-19-09, 03:42
After last week's street fighting, the world is watching Thailand, but does Thailand care?
In a word, 'NO'.
The Thais have always been inward-looking and guilty of an over-bearing and unwarranted arrogance and belief in their superiority to everyone else, that most are likely not to care what the world thinks.
The article in the Times by the Chula professor, while good, still bears the tell-tail Thai sychophant's obsequious reverence for HM, a person as much to blame for the current mess, as Taksin. The point the professor failed to make was the reverence is for the man, not the institution, and when the man goes, in the not-to-distant future, so will go the reverence. Then, all hell will break loose making Monday's demonstrations and violence seem like a mild disagreement, by comparison.
The Thais have always been inward-looking and guilty of an over-bearing and unwarranted arrogance and belief in their superiority to everyone else...
Well I certainly think that Thais and Thailand are superior to all else, but I doubt whether their arrogance is based upon the same criteria of evaluation that I use...
Old Thai Hand
04-19-09, 08:56
Well I certainly think that Thais and Thailand are superior to all else, but I doubt whether their arrogance is based upon the same criteria of evaluation that I use...
I suspect your criteria concerns readily available, cheap pussy. However, the superior aspects of this not withstanding, in all seriousness, the Thai arrogance to which I refer is based on institutionalized brain-washing and xenophobia which masks a major lack of intellect, knowledge, skill and ability in just about everything (save your area of interest), not to mention a universal bankruptcy in honesty, ethics and morality.
I suspect your criteria concerns readily available, cheap pussy. However, the superior aspects of this not withstanding, in all seriousness, the Thai arrogance to which I refer is based on institutionalized brain-washing and xenophobia which masks a major lack of intellect, knowledge, skill and ability in just about everything (save your area of interest), not to mention a universal bankruptcy in honesty, ethics and morality.
Sounds just like Indonesia !!!
OTH, your mailbox is full. thanks for the info.
Cunning Linguist
04-19-09, 16:53
The PAD built the coffin and The UDD are driving in the nails and sealing it shut. Add in the the global economic crisis and this country is well and truly fucked.
I really appreciate the comments by Old Thai Hand and others. I cannot understand why the baht is not crashing like it did in 1997 given the fact that there is a serious world-wide economic crisis coupled by the insane upheavals in the land. I have heard that some governments are advising against even visiting Thailand for the time being. In view of this, why, oh why, is the exchange rate 46.217 baht for a euro (35 for a dollar) and not 60 baht for a euro?
Old Thai Hand
04-19-09, 18:32
I really appreciate the comments by Old Thai Hand and others. I cannot understand why the baht is not crashing like it did in 1997 given the fact that there is a serious world-wide economic crisis coupled by the insane upheavals in the land. I have heard that some governments are advising against even visiting Thailand for the time being. In view of this, why, oh why, is the exchange rate 46.217 baht for a euro (35 for a dollar) and not 60 baht for a euro?
because the central bank is shoring it up...some say with Taksin's frozen assets.
because the central bank is shoring it up...some say with Taksin's frozen assets.Hmmm...not really.
1) The THB was undervalued before the crisis, and it is more or less normalizing now.
2) The Imports dropped much more than the Export, and that stabilizes the THB.
3) The currency markets know about this crisis [of confidence] already a bit longer - it is not really news which could move the prices dramatically.
Giotto
Old Thai Hand
04-20-09, 02:53
Hmmm...not really.
1) The THB was undervalued before the crisis, and it is more or less normalizing now.
2) The Imports dropped much more than the Export, and that stabilizes the THB.
3) The currency markets know about this crisis [of confidence] already a bit longer - it is not really news which could move the prices dramatically.
Giotto
I defer to your much superior knowledge on such matters. The anecdote about using Taksin's assets has been all over the net for a couple of weeks. I thought it was funny that people would believe this.
LittleBigMan
04-20-09, 04:41
I have heard and read what many econmic experts have been predicting for some time even before Obama came to office when it comes to the dollar versus the baht. The U.S. is printing too much money and once it is circulated it will de-value the dollar not only in Thailand but throughout the world. If Thailand wasn't having problems like the rest of the world the dollar versus the baht might be 25/1 so at 35/1 and being on a budget I'm just happy it's not even 31/1 as it was last year!
Aside from the above I will do as OTH, and defer back to Giotto for his comments if any.
LBM
When the man goes, in the not-to-distant future, so will go the reverence. Then, all hell will break loose making Monday's demonstrations and violence seem like a mild disagreement, by comparison.
I wonder about that. I mean, it is indubitable that the reverence is for the person and not the institution, but the said person has been notoriously very frail and for all practical purposes out of the loop for quite some time now. As for the reverence, it is probably much less now than it was 10 years ago, or even 5 years ago.
It is obvious that we all have a lot to fear as this reign is coming to an end, but IMHO the worst case scenario is not the most probable. Or at least that is what I want to believe…
Old Thai Hand
04-21-09, 06:34
I wonder about that. I mean, it is indubitable that the reverence is for the person and not the institution, but the said person has been notoriously very frail and for all practical purposes out of the loop for quite some time now. As for the reverence, it is probably much less now than it was 10 years ago, or even 5 years ago.
It is obvious that we all have a lot to fear as this reign is coming to an end, but IMHO the worst case scenario is not the most probable. Or at least that is what I want to believe…
I don't have a crystal ball. So, I don't know, either what will happen. But, at the moment, at least, like the reds and the yellows, there are two antatogistic factions within the family, with corresponding and competing loyalties within the armed forces and the police. If, this isn't resolved internally, it could spill out into the general populace with disastrous results.
Terry Terrier
04-22-09, 01:53
I don't have a crystal ball. So, I don't know, either what will happen. But, at the moment, at least, like the reds and the yellows, there are two antatogistic factions within the family, with corresponding and competing loyalties within the armed forces and the police. If, this isn't resolved internally, it could spill out into the general populace with disastrous results.
IMO it will require considerably more than an internal resolution to sort this one out. There will have to be some major PR drives very quickly after the major event. And no amount of intimidation by the 'security forces' will have much effect. As for controlling that damned modern media, it's like trying to package mist in a box!
I went for a walk in the Silom neighborhood early this morning and I was amazed at the number of soldiers and police guarding the Dusit Thani Hotel where an ASEAN health summit is underway. Didn't see very many lethal weapons, though.
The Abhisit government is obviously taking no chances after the ASEAN debacle in Pattaya last month.
It looked like a potential war zone out there, but funny thing, there was not a protester in sight.
I went for a walk in the Silom neighborhood early this morning and I was amazed at the number of soldiers and police guarding the Dusit Thani Hotel where an ASEAN health summit is underway. Didn't see very many lethal weapons, though.
The Abhisit government is obviously taking no chances after the ASEAN debacle in Pattaya last month.
It looked like a potential war zone out there, but funny thing, there was not a protester in sight.http://www.reuters.com/news/video?videoId=103311&videoChannel=1
Old Thai Hand
05-09-09, 04:32
Just as the Thai govt. is failing in its attempt to muzzle the Internet, and in particular any site deemed "a threat to national security" (i.e. sites critical of the monarchy, critical of the govt., or which show Thai women in an unfavourable light), this "open letter", which has been making the rounds is at best an unconvincing critique aimed not just at The Economist, but the international media, in general in a feeble attempt at shoring up a disintegrating status quo.
http://www.nationmultimedia.com/2009/05/09/opinion/opinion_30102294.php
The Thai press falls lock-step into place behind the establsiment's attempt to maintain the now very thin veneer of respect for the monarchy. While the Thai elite, the Thai govt. and the Thai press continue to try to convince everyone that the much-loved King and the monarchy are one-in-the-same, the truth is quite different.
As the now, much-less-visible King becomes increasingly frail, and stares into the rapidly approaching abyss of his own mortality, the appologists for the monarchy, (which has been, since the 1960s nothing more than a symbolic umbrella to protect the vested interest of the few) are becoming increasingly strident and unconvincing in their arguments. With the recent unrest, major cracks are forming in the shell of blind obedience that has protected the powerful for far too long. For the first time, the royal family, and especially the queen are being criticized by large segments of the disenfranchised populace, something that would have been unthinkable even a couple of years ago.
The more visible street battles of the yellows and the reds are merely the tip of the iceberg. Many other, unreported protests and disturbances occur on a weekly basis that, while not directly related to the main battles are more significantly an indication of an ongoing, wide-spread malaise and dissatisfaction with the lot in life of the vast majority of Thais.
The band-aid still largely holding the pieces all together, however precariously is the image and myth of the King, and to a much lesser extent, the institutional, feudalistic brainwashing to which most Thais still obediently subscribe.
When the King dies, it will all come crashing down, despite the lame attempts of people like the author of the above "open letter" to maintain the self-serving and false illusions needed by those in power to justify their continual plundering and oppression of the country.
Terry Terrier
05-09-09, 07:47
Just as the Thai govt. is failing in its attempt to muzzle the Internet, and in particular any site deemed "a threat to national security" (i.e. sites critical of the monarchy, critical of the govt., or which show Thai women in an unfavourable light), this "open letter", which has been making the rounds is at best an unconvincing critique aimed not just at The Economist, but the international media, in general in a feeble attempt at shoring up a disintegrating status quo.
http://www.nationmultimedia.com/2009/05/09/opinion/opinion_30102294.php
The Thai press falls lock-step into place behind the establsiment's attempt to maintain the now very thin veneer of respect for the monarchy. While the Thai elite, the Thai govt. and the Thai press continue to try to convince everyone that the much-loved King and the monarchy are one-in-the-same, the truth is quite different.
As the now, much-less-visible King becomes increasingly frail, and stares into the rapidly approaching abyss of his own mortality, the appologists for the monarchy, (which has been, since the 1960s nothing more than a symbolic umbrella to protect the vested interest of the few) are becoming increasingly strident and unconvincing in their arguments. With the recent unrest, major cracks are forming in the shell of blind obedience that has protected the powerful for far too long. For the first time, the royal family, and especially the queen are being criticized by large segments of the disenfranchised populace, something that would have been unthinkable even a couple of years ago.
The more visible street battles of the yellows and the reds are merely the tip of the iceberg. Many other, unreported protests and disturbances occur on a weekly basis that, while not directly related to the main battles are more significantly an indication of an ongoing, wide-spread malaise and dissatisfaction with the lot in life of the vast majority of Thais.
The band-aid still largely holding the pieces all together, however precariously is the image and myth of the King, and to a much lesser extent, the institutional, feudalistic brainwashing to which most Thais still obediently subscribe.
When the King dies, it will all come crashing down, despite the lame attempts of people like the author of the above "open letter" to maintain the self-serving and false illusions needed by those in power to justify their continual plundering and oppression of the country.
The biggest problem is that there is no "shining light" unifying figure on the near horizon. Abhisit is quite clean, but he stepped up to the plate too soon and in extremely dodgy circumstances. He blew his chance.
We can only hope and pray that things don't descent into civil war.
Terry Terrier
05-17-09, 23:34
Man the new PM is getting hammered on the BBC for whipping and towing those refugees out to sea. Reports make Thailand look draconian. All they show are jail houses, young girls getting locked up, over crowding, many died, etc.
We laughed at his exposure when caught lying to Jonathan Head about his party's connections to the PAD, but it is so sad to see him being so squirmingly, uncomfortably dishonest covering for his Army controllers over a major human rights abuse issue:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?gl=GB&v=FF3zqBK_gNU
Times are clearly so desperate nowadays that one of the very few politicians who was capable of navigating Thailand away from it's impending abyss has been trashed by the latest mob of unsavoury incumbents :(.
It is obvious that we all have a lot to fear as this reign is coming to an end, but IMHO the worst case scenario is not the most probable. Or at least that is what I want to believe…
I agree. Personally I don't give much credence to the idea that 'reverence' for any one person is really going to control masses who are deeply angry about their own condition, treatment, and interests. I think that in general systems of oppression have deep roots - look at my own sad land: the US has no revered person, and yet everyone accepts their exploitation. Fear always lies behind the hubris and delusion that keeps the serfs in line.
If you look at what happened with the red-shirts - just a brief display of opposition and then rapid caving in to the man with the gun - I think we can see that Thais simply fear power. It is ingrained in them, and probably all the successor(s) will have to do is a few weeks show of brutality to get things in line. Of course I could be wrong - one always has the shining example of 1917 to remind us that the ruling class does not win every time. (A more apt comparison than Iran 1979 I think - what do you gents think?).
...one always has the shining example of 1917 to remind us that the ruling class does not win every time. (A more apt comparison than Iran 1979 I think - what do you gents think?).
I think that one ruling class was exchanged for another, tens of millions of human beings met their deaths, and nothing changed for the better.
Ruling classes ... they are all the same, regardless of political persuasion.
We have but one major concern with the coming transition: How will the Farang be treated?
New Video on Thai PM Vejjajiva on CNN, he's smooth.
http://edition.cnn.com/video/#/video/world/2009/05/17/coren.intv.abhist.thai.cnn
Old Thai Hand
05-18-09, 14:06
We have but one major concern with the coming transition: How will the Farang be treated?
I don't know that this particular transition will have any impact on how Farang are treated, despite the fact that HRH despises Farang. He won't be the one setting policy.
But, it is interesting that regardless of the current govt.'s hatred of Taksin, they have reversed none of his draconian policies regarding visa regulations and in fact, successive govt.s since he was deposed have made staying here even tougher for us than he ever did.
It really doesn't matter who's in charge, we'll always be at best, merely tolerated, and largely remain victims of various double-standards and prejudices. All Thais are brainwashed xenophobes, institutionally conditioned by the ruling Thai Nazis to be protectionist, suspicious, ultra-right-wing nationalists.
...It really doesn't matter who's in charge, we'll always be at best, merely tolerated, and largely remain victims of various double-standards and prejudices. All Thais are brainwashed xenophobes, institutionally conditioned by the ruling Thai Nazis to be protectionist, suspicious, ultra-right-wing nationalists.
While not an ideal situation, I'm happy enough with the status quo.
My concern is the possibility of being treated like the Jews in Nazi Germany after 1933. You know ... a knock at the door in the middle of the night. I can abide a few double standards and prejudices, but not the loss of my life or property.
Actually, from my persepctive, I'm treated pretty well right now as a Farang.
It really doesn't matter who's in charge, we'll always be at best, merely tolerated, and largely remain victims of various double-standards and prejudices. All Thais are brainwashed xenophobes, institutionally conditioned by the ruling Thai Nazis to be protectionist, suspicious, ultra-right-wing nationalists.
And in return most Farangs look down on the Thais as being unable to properly run their own country, which incidentally is not too far from the mark, even by their standards.
Regrettably, we have to adjust to the sad fact that we will never be able to run it for them (and for us…). Mind you, we do not really need to run the entire country. A few international concessions like in the China of the ‘30s in the areas we hold dearest (Pattaya, Phuket, Samui, Hua Hin perhaps) would be more than enough, I guess.
Professor 1
05-19-09, 03:08
I don't know that this particular transition will have any impact on how Farang are treated, despite the fact that HRH despises Farang. He won't be the one setting policy.
I find this interesting. Was not HRH born in Cambridge, MA? Of course, I concede that this means nothing. The U.S. machine financially supported his kingdom for some years.
Old Thai Hand
05-19-09, 03:18
While not an ideal situation, I'm happy enough with the status quo.
My concern is the possibility of being treated like the Jews in Nazi Germany after 1933. You know ... a knock at the door in the middle of the night. I can abide a few double standards and prejudices, but not the loss of my life or property.
"Herr Daddy. Ve saw you mit ein 18 jahr alt shpinner, nicht wahr?"
Actually, from my persepctive, I'm treated pretty well right now as a Farang.
That's because you live in a Farang Ghetto, where your every movement can be watched ....hehehe ;)
"You, You Farang. Where you go? Where you come from? Why you come Thailand. You hansum man. You like Thai lady? You can eat sa-picy? I like you. I luf you. I want go with you. I have some prombem. Can you hep me?
And in return most Farangs look down on the Thais as being unable to properly run their own country, which incidentally is not too far from the mark, even by their standards.
That's because they lack the capacity to think, reason and plan.
They're actually incapable of doing much of anything correctly, except copying things, cooking and eating, and in particular, drinking and fucking, both to excess.
Regrettably, we have to adjust to the sad fact that we will never be able to run it for them (and for us…). Mind you, we do not really need to run the entire country. A few international concessions like in the China of the ‘30s in the areas we hold dearest (Pattaya, Phuket, Samui, Hua Hin perhaps) would be more than enough, I guess.
Good idea. Spheres of influence. I think it would be even better, though if it was like China in the 19th century with various foreign legations and colonies with foreign control of trade and various illicit activities.
Old Thai Hand
05-19-09, 03:25
I find this interesting. Was not HRH born in Cambridge, MA? Of course, I concede that this means nothing. The U.S. machine financially supported his kingdom for some years.
No, that's HM. He largely likes Farang and is somewhat of an internationalist. HRH is the son, who is a simple-minded, ultra-reactionary xenophobe (like his dragon-lady mother). I can say from personal, direct and intimate experience that he hates Farang.
LittleBigMan
05-19-09, 06:28
Politics I guess is like sex..
They want us and they need us and when they get bigger and stronger so do their heads! and then they 3F us!
LBM
Good idea. Spheres of influence. I think it would be even better, though if it was like China in the 19th century with various foreign legations and colonies with foreign control of trade and various illicit activities.
That would be easiest for Phuket and Samui, they are already islands. A few gunboats stationed offshore to ensure the protection of foreigners and the rule of law (our law, that is), extraterritorial privileges, tax-free heavens, Thai citizen submitted to a strict residency permit regulation… This sounds promising :).
They want us and they need us and when they get bigger and stronger so do their heads! and then they 3F us!
Absolutely. Previous generations of mongers knew Japan and Korea as good P4P destinations - not really all that long ago for Korea. But now there is nothing for the foriegner in either place (and probably a lot less for locals than there used to be). Point is, the world only gets worse. It never gets better.
It really doesn't matter who's in charge, we'll always be at best, merely tolerated, and largely remain victims of various double-standards and prejudices. All Thais are brainwashed xenophobes, institutionally conditioned by the ruling Thai Nazis to be protectionist, suspicious, ultra-right-wing nationalists.
I love this statement! Pure genius!
That would be easiest for Phuket and Samui, they are already islands. A few gunboats stationed offshore to ensure the protection of foreigners and the rule of law (our law, that is), extraterritorial privileges, tax-free heavens, Thai citizen submitted to a strict residency permit regulation… This sounds promising :).
Yeah, very interesting ... but there would be no pussy. :(
NicFrenchy
05-20-09, 02:03
They're actually incapable of doing much of anything correctly, except copying things, cooking and eating, and in particular, drinking and fucking, both to excess.
Sadly, this is exactly the case.
Many Thais see us Farangs as a Virus, a desease spreading in their country.
Sadly, this is exactly the case.
Many Thais see us Farangs as a Virus, a desease spreading in their country.
I suppose that is why they copy everything we do.
They hate us (but they love us).
Old Thai Hand
05-20-09, 07:36
I suppose that is why they copy everything we do.
They hate us (but they love us).
They covet the superficial trappings of our culture: our material goods, our popular culture, our ideas, our status in the world, our expertise, (so they can exploit it and take credit for the results, without putting in any effort), and above all our money.
But, they don't want us around. In my last two jobs, it was made abundantly clear that Farang are a necessary evil and quite unwelcome.
LittleBigMan
05-20-09, 13:41
Some Thai's seem to make a case it's Thailand against United States. Once I join into a friendly conversation that the U.S. has this or that too but you're not sure if Thailand services are the same as the U.S. some get offended that you make the comparision.
I wanted to respond that who do you think invented the lightbulb, who do you think invented the car, who do you think invented the motorbike, who do you think invented the bicycle, who do you think invented purify water, who do you think invented cable t.V., who do you think invented the telephone, who do you think invented the computer and Internet, who do you think invented the airplane, the list go on and on...
OTH, I seen it and I get it! Thai's are proud people but also sometimes stupid too but don't even try to point it out cause it just opens another can of worms.
LBM
Old Thai Hand
05-20-09, 15:28
Some Thai's seem to make a case it's Thailand against United States. Once I join into a friendly conversation that the U.S. has this or that too but you're not sure if Thailand services are the same as the U.S. some get offended that you make the comparision.
I wanted to respond that who do you think invented the lightbulb, who do you think invented the car, who do you think invented the motorbike, who do you think invented the bicycle, who do you think invented purify water, who do you think invented cable t.V., who do you think invented the telephone, who do you think invented the computer and Internet, who do you think invented the airplane, the list go on and on...
OTH, I seen it and I get it! Thai's are proud people but also sometimes stupid too but don't even try to point it out cause it just opens another can of worms.
LBM
If you really want to wind up Thais, go after their culture. They are inherently ignorant of their own culture, largely due to the systematic, inaccuracies fed them in their crappy education system.
Tell them that:
Thai dance is actually Khmer
Their religion, language, traditional costumes, and music come from India (that really makes them angry)
Chillies come from Mexico (Thai food was actually quite bland until the Portuguese spiced it up in the 16th century)
Mor Lam music in Isaan came from Brazil in the 1920s
Phad Thai, the quintessential Thai dish is Chinese in origin and was invented in 1936 for King Rama VII
The Tuk Tuk is Japanese
The list goes on and on...
Personally, I love bursting their bubbles because they are so absolute about the "Thainess" of their culture.
The list goes on and on...The one I laugh at the most is where they think they invented the spoon.
The only two things that I can think of that Thais have invented are "Red Bull" and walking ATMs. For crap's sake, they didn't even invent their own prized Hom Mali rice! (USA wet hybrid, 1956)
Let's talk EI, historically diminutive IQs, the number of Thais with Alexithymia, and the cross relationships of emotional maturity quantification to inherently low work related performances. Thai culture?
Thais are in very serious trouble for the near future. My advice to them would be to start making a lot more girl babies. Pronto.
LittleBigMan
05-20-09, 16:52
OTH,
What you pointed out is very interesting. Like yourself although I'm living here I consider myself a guest and try to just fit in. I'm ask about lots of things and I just try to be point blank and not be too long winded to my wife friends. Overall they are good people and hard working and have always been kind to be. But there are a few that I don't know well after a few glasses of Sansome whiskey mixed with soda they seem to get out of line but I just sit back and listen personally that's only for my wife sake because I don't want her to have to loose face. Although it wouldn't take much to bust their bubbles. When it comes to drinking the ones I have met which leads me to generalize that Thai's can't hold their liquor. Not being a big drinker I grew up drinking Remy Martin straight up and yet to be outdone by any of her friends. I personally don't see how anyone can get drunk on Sansome mixed with soda.
As for education, you make me worry cause my son goes to a private school not the best and not the worse. I had him at 5 years old at a top private school in Pattaya but after he came home one day gave his cousin the finger and once I found he learn that at school I pull him out. But oh well it's too late now cause he a mommy boy.
LBM
Professor 1
05-20-09, 23:38
If you really want to wind up Thais, go after their culture. They are inherently ignorant of their own culture, largely due to the systematic, inaccuracies fed them in their crappy education system.
Tell them that:
Thai dance is actually Khmer
Their religion, language, traditional costumes, and music come from India (that really makes them angry)
Chillies come from Mexico (Thai food was actually quite bland until the Portuguese spiced it up in the 16th century)
Mor Lam music in Isaan came from Brazil in the 1920s
Phad Thai, the quintessential Thai dish is Chinese in origin and was invented in 1936 for King Rama VII
The Tuk Tuk is Japanese
The list goes on and on...
Personally, I love bursting their bubbles because they are so absolute about the "Thainess" of their culture.
Perhaps, Brother, you should write a book entitled "The Miseducation of the Thai." Of course, as you probably know, the title comes from another U.S. classic penned by Professor Carter Godwin Woodson. (I could not resist.) I only ask for an autographed copy.
NicFrenchy
05-21-09, 02:26
Perhaps, Brother, you should write a book entitled "The Miseducation of the Thai."
That book has every chance of being banned in thailand
Old Thai Hand
05-21-09, 04:05
Perhaps, Brother, you should write a book entitled "The Miseducation of the Thai." Of course, as you probably know, the title comes from another U.S. classic penned by Professor Carter Godwin Woodson. (I could not resist.) I only ask for an autographed copy.
Good idea. But, with a central theme, that would focus on the fact that the Thai education system is meant to subjugate, not educate, I'd probably be deported, as a result.
The central premise of the PAD and the Thai elite: that the Thai masses are too ignorant and uneducated to make an informed decision with regards to electing governments is perhaps true, but more to the point, if it is true, it's because the very people who claim this are the architects of said ignorance and lack of education.
That book has every chance of being banned in thailand
That goes without saying. Thais of any stripe are incapable of withstanding any sort of criticism.
Old Thai Hand
05-21-09, 04:49
OTH,
What you pointed out is very interesting. Like yourself although I'm living here I consider myself a guest and try to just fit in. I'm ask about lots of things and I just try to be point blank and not be too long winded to my wife friends. Overall they are good people and hard working and have always been kind to be. But there are a few that I don't know well after a few glasses of Sansome whiskey mixed with soda they seem to get out of line but I just sit back and listen personally that's only for my wife sake because I don't want her to have to loose face. Although it wouldn't take much to bust their bubbles. When it comes to drinking the ones I have met which leads me to generalize that Thai's can't hold their liquor. Not being a big drinker I grew up drinking Remy Martin straight up and yet to be outdone by any of her friends. I personally don't see how anyone can get drunk on Sansome mixed with soda.
As for education, you make me worry cause my son goes to a private school not the best and not the worse. I had him at 5 years old at a top private school in Pattaya but after he came home one day gave his cousin the finger and once I found he learn that at school I pull him out. But oh well it's too late now cause he a mommy boy.
LBM
There are only about 5 or 6 good international schools in Thailand, with true egalitarian curriculum. Regents in Pattaya is one of them. So, chances are slim that any Thai child will get an international-standard education, even thoses fortunate enough to go to some sort of international school. That being said, however, at least all the international schools give their students a fighting chance by using proper, internationally-vetted textbooks and employing Farang teachers.
Thai schools have curriculum that is designed primarily to instill jingoistic, xenophobic, reactionary fervour in the minds and hearts of students. A good deal of this is dangerous. For example, Thai textbooks actively promote hatred of the Burmese and Khmer by grossly distorting Thai history.
Lest anyone think that I'm saying that Thais have a monopoly on ignorance, I hasten to add that institutionally sanctioned ignorance is common even in Western education. The education system in the US is rife with it, and there's no shortage of jingoism and ignorance in American schools, particularly these days.
I was teaching in Chicago in the late 80s at a first-tier college, where only the 'creme de la creme' managed to get accepted. Towards the end of the semester, one "bright" lad raised his hand and asked me what kind of government Canada had. "Do you have a king? Can the king cut off people's heads, if they don't agree with him?"
After facetiously explaining to him that Canada had "recently done away with the lopping off of heads", I then went on to explain that Canada was in fact, officially a constituional monarchy, but was every bit as democratic (perhaps, more so) than the US. Unfortunately, his ignorance of a country, a mere 1 hour away by plane was far from unique and extended even to my colleagues, who would ask so many silly and bizarre questions about Canada, that, at times, I felt somewhat like an exhibit in a freak show.
I just go on about the ignorance of the Thais, because this is where I am at the moment. But, ignorance is unfortunately an international affliction.
...Lest anyone think that I'm saying that Thais have a monopoly on ignorance, I hasten to add that institutionally sanctioned ignorance is common even in Western education. The education system in the US is rife with it, and there's no shortage of jingoism and ignorance in American schools, particularly these days...
This situation unfortunately exists because the primary mission of school systems in the US and elsewhere is to teach their captive audiences WHAT to think instead of HOW to think.
LittleBigMan
05-21-09, 06:43
OTH,
Until you mention this subject I never really thought much about the education system except that the school I was sending him now seem on the surface to be doing a pretty good job. Ever since he has gone to this school he has grown and is now more open. I see this around his Thai friends who go to Thai public school.
The Regent in Pattaya was the school I once sent him to and them removed him. One, I think about it I really didn't want him growing up in that environment of seeing every car dropping off their kids in benz, bmw, now from time to time I see the Van for Regent and I see how rude,loud, and spoil these kids are,so right now I think I made the right decision. I never wanted to hear from my son that Nike is all he can wear.
LBM
Redfield10
05-21-09, 07:17
The only "top tier" University in Chicago is the U. Chicago....
As an American, I'd have to take issue with your inference that American kids ..especially those at the University of Chicago, are inferior to the neighbors to the north.
I know Canadians tend to think they are a whole lot better and smarter than Americans, but it's mostly because they are very jealous of the country to their south..in fact, could they even survive without a stable country such as the U.S.A to the south? I doubt it....
Seems you've taught in about a million places, but tenured in none..is that about right?
There are only about 5 or 6 good international schools in Thailand, with true egalitarian curriculum. Regents in Pattaya is one of them. So, chances are slim that any Thai child will get an international-standard education, even thoses fortunate enough to go to some sort of international school. That being said, however, at least all the international schools give their students a fighting chance by using proper, internationally-vetted textbooks and employing Farang teachers.
Thai schools have curriculum that is designed primarily to instill jingoistic, xenophobic, reactionary fervour in the minds and hearts of students. A good deal of this is dangerous. For example, Thai textbooks actively promote hatred of the Burmese and Khmer by grossly distorting Thai history.
Lest anyone think that I'm saying that Thais have a monopoly on ignorance, I hasten to add that institutionally sanctioned ignorance is common even in Western education. The education system in the US is rife with it, and there's no shortage of jingoism and ignorance in American schools, particularly these days.
I was teaching in Chicago in the late 80s at a first-tier college, where only the 'creme de la creme' managed to get accepted. Towards the end of the semester, one "bright" lad raised his hand and asked me what kind of government Canada had. "Do you have a king? Can the king cut off people's heads, if they don't agree with him?"
After facetiously explaining to him that Canada had "recently done away with the lopping off of heads", I then went on to explain that Canada was in fact, officially a constituional monarchy, but was every bit as democratic (perhaps, more so) than the US. Unfortunately, his ignorance of a country, a mere 1 hour away by plane was far from unique and extended even to my colleagues, who would ask so many silly and bizarre questions about Canada, that, at times, I felt somewhat like an exhibit in a freak show.
I just go on about the ignorance of the Thais, because this is where I am at the moment. But, ignorance is unfortunately an international affliction.
Old Thai Hand
05-21-09, 14:20
OTH,
Until you mention this subject I never really thought much about the education system except that the school I was sending him now seem on the surface to be doing a pretty good job. Ever since he has gone to this school he has grown and is now more open. I see this around his Thai friends who go to Thai public school.
The Regent in Pattaya was the school I once sent him to and them removed him. One, I think about it I really didn't want him growing up in that environment of seeing every car dropping off their kids in benz, bmw, now from time to time I see the Van for Regent and I see how rude,loud, and spoil these kids are,so right now I think I made the right decision. I never wanted to hear from my son that Nike is all he can wear.
LBM
I only meant that Regent's was academically more sound than most others. But, I also understand what you're talking about because I teach the snotty graduates of such schools at the university level, and I know that they are often rude, spoiled and preoccupied with conspicuous wealth. These are the same kids who more often than not go on to run the country's top companies and the government itself.
NicFrenchy
05-22-09, 08:28
Thais don't read books anyway
Ha! now you're being harsh... they do read books... comic books :D
Old Thai Hand
05-22-09, 08:50
The only "top tier" University in Chicago is the U. Chicago....
As an American, I'd have to take issue with your inference that American kids ..especially those at the University of Chicago, are inferior to the neighbors to the north.
I know Canadians tend to think they are a whole lot better and smarter than Americans, but it's mostly because they are very jealous of the country to their south..in fact, could they even survive without a stable country such as the U.S.A to the south? I doubt it....
Seems you've taught in about a million places, but tenured in none..is that about right?
A little sensitive, aren't we?
I said 'college', not 'university'. The School of the Art Institute of Chicago is in the top 5 art colleges in the US, and that's where I was.
I don't think anywhere in my post I inferred that my students in Chicago were inferior to Canadians, just more ignorant, as were my colleagues. That's simply true. But, still, it is a fact that the Canadian education system is far more broad, than its American counterpart. Even American educators acknowledge that our education system is better than yours right through to the end of undergraduate school. It's only at the graduate level that America outstrips everyone in the world. In our elementary and high schools, we are taught everything about your history, geography, political system, society etc. etc., not to mention a good deal about the rest of the world, as well. Every Canadian kid can name the first president of the US by 7th grade. I doubt if any American kid could name the first Prime Minister of Canada. We study the American Revolution, the Civil War, we memorize the Gettyburg Address, all this as well as learning our own history and that of Europe, Asia and Africa. Perhaps all that's justified, given the size of the US and its importance to Canada. However, there's no excuse for the ignorance of most Americans vis-a-vis their immediate neighbours both to the south and the north, not to mention ignorance of the rest of the world. The education system in the US is so US-centric that it tends to exclude or at least dismiss knowledge of the rest of the world as somewhat less important. Afterall, isn't it true that most Americans don't even have a passport and never go anywhere outside their own country? (except when they go abroad to 'enforce' their foreign policy).
...Ah, the old "Canadians are jealous of us" myth...hardly. We have a better standard of living as a whole, clean cities, nothing that could even remotely compare to a slum, such as one finds in most American cities, universal health care, a social safety net, and generally higher salaries, to name a few things. Could we survive without the US? Of course not. But, neither could the US survive without us, or the rest of the world. I'm sure the Canadian troops in Afghanistan would be quite happy to leave the under-manned and under-equipped US forces to their own fate, if for no other reason than to avoid any more of those pesky friendly fire "accidents" by trigger happy American fighter pilots.
Don't get me wrong. I really like most Americans. But, when you all get jingoistic (and defensive) and trot out old clinkers like Canadians are jealous of Americans, (or, America vs. the world), it does get my back up, a bit. A lot of Americans take themselves way too seriously. Maybe it's because you spent 8 years listening to strident bitches like Ann Coulter and the rest of the nefarious crew at Fox News, during their daily George Bush pep-rallies. Canadians, in general don't take themselves that seriously. Perhaps that's why Canada has been the source for a lot of "American" humour (Saturday Night Live, for example) because we like taking the [CodeWord140] (http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord140) out of ourselves and everyone else (much like the Brits).
As for your cheap shot about tenure...I'm not an academic, nor have I ever claimed to be. I have never pursued an academic career. I have taught college and university as a sidebar to my main career and interests, as have many in my profession, because of my technical expertise. Even in Thailand, where I teach more than I ever did in the west, it's not all that I do. It's merely a means to an end. It pays my rent and for my lifestyle. Other than that, I could care less about it. Also, FYI, there is no tenure in Thailand, anyway, even for Thai academics. I have never held a job longer than 5 years, by choice. I like to travel, I like diversity and I could never do the ass-kissing and work necessary to get tenure. Employment in the same job for life??? Somebody shoot me.
What's so great about tenure and being stuck in the same job forever, anyway? - (a practice, by the way that is increasingly going out of style in the US, through economic necessity). I've met many tenured professors who were, so to speak, "Good at school, but bad at life", who couldn't survive outside of academia. And even within academia, a lot of them are so narrow in their knowledge, producing reams of meaningless drivel, because they have to, that for the most part, they come across as quite brain-dead in normal conversation. This is particularly true of Thai academics, whose arrogance is proportional to their complete incompetence in most things.
In contrast, I cultivate myself as somewhat of a Renaissance man, or more accurately, a jack of all trades, but a master of none, and I like it that way.
Terry Terrier
05-23-09, 22:32
Interesting on-the-ground report of Black Songkran:
http://rspas.anu.edu.au/rmap/newmandala/2009/04/20/the-crushing-of-the-red-shirts/
Very well said OTH. I believe that almost the whole world believes that the majority of the Americans is way too self-congratulatory. America is the true Zhong Guo.
There is a disturbing story that is making the news about containers full of human remains that have been found near the Sattahip naval base. Reports suggest that there could be many containers dumped into the sea after the violent crackdown of the 1992 unrest against General Suchinda’s junta.
http://www.pattayaone.net/news/2009/may/news_08_05_52_2.shtml
Thailand has lots of secrets and there is a massive power play going on at the moment, multiple parties are all grappling for power.
Its obvious that the Black May 1992 disappeared were dumped in containers in the sea. It may not be the ones being investigated now, but that is not the point.
The point is that a certain power clique is extering pressure over another power clique with the "threat" of finding the actual containers with bodies in. Quite likely deals are being done and then the one they are presently looking at will be empty and the rumours will go away until next time someone needs to apply pressure.
Its like the recent "attempted" assaisnation of Sondthi. If you believe that trained marksmen could fire 100 rounds into a car and "miss" then you have to be pretty stupid. Give me a gun and I could easily fire 100 rounds into the car and gets lots of hits. Opinion says this was just a media play by certain parties. Probably someone did pay for the hit, but then a higher counter offer came in and so those doing the hit decided to take both payments, and probably took Sondthi out of the car and said to him let us just hit you on the head and fire lots of rounds into the empty car and that will be enough for the media.
Its done Sondthi no harm as he has more "sympathy" votes for his new political party when it runs.
Thailand is full of secrets and lots of power plays happen all the time, this is why its so corrupt and so problematic. Why do you think there has been so many coups in Thailand.
So at a guess if a deal is pulled off then the container will be empty. If no deal then they will likely be guided to find a container that has some remains in it.
Enjoy the media show.
All the above is pure speculation and opinion and no claims to anything in the above being true is made.
There is a disturbing story that is making the news about containers full of human remains that have been found near the Sattahip naval base. Reports suggest that there could be many containers dumped into the sea after the violent crackdown of the 1992 unrest against General Suchinda’s junta.
http://www.pattayaone.net/news/2009/may/news_08_05_52_2.shtml
The political system here is design in such a way that the PM has no respect from the ARMY generals. The commander in chief of the Army is the King of Thailand, which is completely different than in the state.
This has lead to coup after coup. Every coup in Thailand in the past 50 years has been led or support by the army because of this.
To make matter worse you have four completely different regions in a country the size of the state of Texas. You have the northeast Issan, which consists of darker sign Thais who speak a completely different language then the central Thais. Also there's the Chiang Mai area and the southern type who are Muslim.
Unlike developed countries where the wealth is spread around evenly, Thailand's wealth is concentrated in Bangkok, while leaving other regions with relatively little wealth.
To make matter worse, most of the people in power use it for personal gains. Even Taksin, who had over a billion dollars, used his position to add more personal wealth. The current PM is no better, the only difference is that Taksin support programs to help the northern and northeastern regions. As a result, his loyal supports ( red shirts) are mostly from the north of Thailand and speak a different language. (this is the same group that makes up the working class in bangkok)
As middle class Bangkok residents' properties and businesses are negatively affected they blame these "foreign Thais". These same people are the managers and owners of the companies that the Issan and Chaing mai people work in.
So without the workers, the companies have nothing, but without the the companies the workers have nothing.
Tourists are frighten and current occupancy way down because of recent events. On my last trip to Pattaya, the situation looks very bad. Some of the bars where close and had "for rent" signs up on Walking St. ( the busiest section of Pattaya). Shop vendors and bar girls alike are complaining about the lack of tourists.
The exact amount lost because of political tensions will never be calculated, but I can stay that Thailand need to work together.
FYI: The red shirt leaders have promise to return to Bangkok at the end of June. I know it will not be very pretty,so plan your trips accordingly.
Terry Terrier
06-03-09, 02:58
Some think that this is the second instalment of the new regime's payoff to Newin, the first instalment being the public buses contract of course. There is a lot of good quality public land in Buriram and it's surrounds, and it's hard to imagine him having difficulty finding proxies as nominees for that land.
The key to Abhisit's credibility is whether or not he can keep this side of Thai politics to the bare bones of necessity.
http://www.nationmultimedia.com/2009/06/01/politics/politics_30104036.php
If you really want to wind up Thais, go after their culture. They are inherently ignorant of their own culture, largely due to the systematic, inaccuracies fed them in their crappy education system.
Tell them that:
Thai dance is actually Khmer
Their religion, language, traditional costumes, and music come from India (that really makes them angry)
Chillies come from Mexico (Thai food was actually quite bland until the Portuguese spiced it up in the 16th century)
Mor Lam music in Isaan came from Brazil in the 1920s
Phad Thai, the quintessential Thai dish is Chinese in origin and was invented in 1936 for King Rama VII
The Tuk Tuk is Japanese
The list goes on and on...
Personally, I love bursting their bubbles because they are so absolute about the "Thainess" of their culture.
Ever wonder why you have "problems" with your Thai employers,
coworkers and colleagues ?
Tourists are frighten and current occupancy way down because of recent events. On my last trip to Pattaya, the situation looks very bad. Some of the bars where close and had "for rent" signs up on Walking St. ( the busiest section of Pattaya). Shop vendors and bar girls alike are complaining about the lack of tourists.
The exact amount lost because of political tensions will never be calculated, but I can stay that Thailand need to work together.
FYI: The red shirt leaders have promise to return to Bangkok at the end of June. I know it will not be very pretty,so plan your trips accordingly.As a result P4P service should be even more improved this time of year
than it was back in January.
That's the beauty of incompetent government.
"Thais ok with corrupted government"
By: BangkokPost.com
Published: 28/06/2009 at 12:02 PM
A latest survey reveals that many Thai people would accept a crooked government if it can make the country prosper and raise their standard of living.
The Abac Poll Research Centre conducted a survey on people's well-being, involving 1,228 households in 17 provinces nationwide.
84.5 per cent viewed that corruption in businesses would not be unusual and 51.2 per cent said they would tolerate a corrupted government if it can improve the country and their well-being.
73.9 per cent agreed that living self-sufficiently can help ease the economic crisis.
On the continuing border dispute between Thailand and Cambodia, 84.6 per cent wanted both sides to negotiate peacefully and jointly improve the regional economy. 4.8 per cent wanted either side to use force to solve the problem.
52.9 per cent supported the United Front for Democracy against Dictatorship's anti-government rallies under the condition that they must be held peacefully.
16.3 per cent said they would support the UDD unconditionally. 21.1 per cent opposed the group.
http://www.bangkokpost.com/breakingnews/147332/thais-ok-with-corrupted-government
Terry Terrier
06-30-09, 01:53
This is again a very "clever" comment. It is so "clever" that there is no necessity to comment on it. Your knowledge about the currency market is obviously as significant as your knowledge of political FACTS in Thailand.
Wait 3 months, allow the Democrats to be in control of the Finance Ministry and then watch the baht from early Spring onwards.
The stupid guy was right and the know-it-all expert was wrong. Fanboys at the ready.
The stupid guy was right and the know-it-all expert was wrong. Fanboys at the ready.Why. What happened?
The stupid guy was right and the know-it-all expert was wrong. Fanboys at the ready.TT,
Pavlov is calling :) ... ok, let's fight a bit ...
Nonsense!
As I remember that discussion took place end of December 2008. Easy expected a strong devaluation of the THB because the wealthy would move money out of Thailand into the Euro / Yen.
Fact is that the THB/USD movement is correlating to the EUR/USD and the USD rates of other currencies. The USD clearly made the market, strong until March 2009, when the Financial Markets bottomed (safe haven phenomenon), and weakness afterwards when the markets started to recover and the discussion about the USD as the worlds reserve currency came up.
USD/THB : http://ca.finance.yahoo.com/q/bc?s=USDTHB=X
USD/EURO : http://finance.yahoo.com/echarts?s=USDEUR=X#chart1:symbol=usdeur=x;range=1y;indicator=volume;charttype=line;crosshair=on;ohlcvalues=0;logscale=on;source=undefined
I would not call a movement in the THB from 34.75 end of December 2009 to 36 in the beginning of March 2009 a severe devaluation of the THB (especially not in times of an international financial crisis), neither would I explain the movement of the THB after March with money of the wealthy flowing back into the THB.
As for the EUR/THB exchange rate, there was no devaluation of the THB at all - the opposite was the case, the THB strengthened from 49 to 45 until mid of February. The Euro recovered then, but a significant move after spring 2009 is also not visible, its more a sidewards movement between 46 and 48 THB for the Euro. Up to now I don't see any of Easy's predictions becoming reality.
EUR/THB: http://finance.yahoo.com/echarts?s=EURTHB=X#symbol=EURTHB=X;range=1y
I have written about the general factors which determine the THB trend at the moment here:
http://www.internationalsexguide.info/forum/showthread.php?p=871988&highlight=THB#post871988
If you need more infos read Mr. Doom/Gloom's (Marc Faber) analysis of the Asian currencies.
Giotto
Why. What happened?PinkPearl,
Don't worry, TT is one of my biggest fans :).
Giotto
PinkPearl,
Don't worry, TT is one of my biggest fans :)
Ok, I can sleep better now :)
I know lots of office girls and sales personal of shopping centers who will try approach any farang coming to their office/shop for a date...> dinner...> dancing...> sex.
What shopping centres would these be? I want to discuss Thai Politics with a very cute TG. Are TGs into that. When she approaches me will she start the convo with "Let's go for dinner and boom boom" or should I look for another cum on line/signal? Maybe the fist moving up and down to indicate a HJ? Or the thumb in her mouth?
Terry Terrier
08-08-09, 02:29
TT,
Pavlov is calling :) ... ok, let's fight a bit ...
Nonsense!
As I remember that discussion took place end of December 2008. Easy expected a strong devaluation of the THB because the wealthy would move money out of Thailand into the Euro / Yen.
Fact is that the THB/USD movement is correlating to the EUR/USD and the USD rates of other currencies. The USD clearly made the market, strong until March 2009, when the Financial Markets bottomed (safe haven phenomenon), and weakness afterwards when the markets started to recover and the discussion about the USD as the worlds reserve currency came up.
USD/THB : http://ca.finance.yahoo.com/q/bc?s=USDTHB=X
USD/EURO : http://finance.yahoo.com/echarts?s=USDEUR=X#chart1:symbol=usdeur=x;range=1y;indicator=volume;charttype=line;crosshair=on;ohlcvalues=0;logscale=on;source=undefined
I would not call a movement in the THB from 34.75 end of December 2009 to 36 in the beginning of March 2009 a severe devaluation of the THB (especially not in times of an international financial crisis), neither would I explain the movement of the THB after March with money of the wealthy flowing back into the THB.
As for the EUR/THB exchange rate, there was no devaluation of the THB at all - the opposite was the case, the THB strengthened from 49 to 45 until mid of February. The Euro recovered then, but a significant move after spring 2009 is also not visible, its more a sidewards movement between 46 and 48 THB for the Euro. Up to now I don't see any of Easy's predictions becoming reality.
EUR/THB: http://finance.yahoo.com/echarts?s=EURTHB=X#symbol=EURTHB=X;range=1y
I have written about the general factors which determine the THB trend at the moment here:
http://www.internationalsexguide.info/forum/showthread.php?p=871988&highlight=THB#post871988
If you need more infos read Mr. Doom/Gloom's (Marc Faber) analysis of the Asian currencies.
Giotto
Baht still falling, smartypants. And Minister Korn wants more. Time for more windy prevarication?
Baht still falling, smartypants. And Minister Korn wants more. Time for more windy prevarication?Hmmm..., falling?
I see the USD/THB at 33.91 yesterday - looks to me that the THB is slowly rising against the USD...
But may be I need new glasses :) .
Giotto
SE Asia Joe
08-08-09, 06:04
To give his views and opinions.
Really miss that old codger and his ascerbic remarks and point of view!
SEAJ
Terry Terrier
08-09-09, 19:34
Hmmm..., falling?
I see the USD/THB at 33.91 yesterday - looks to me that the THB is slowly rising against the USD...
But may be I need new glasses :) .
Giotto
How's the Baht been doing against Sterling this year, G?
How's the Baht been doing against Sterling this year, G?TT,
To be honest - I don't watch the Sterling. But I expect the Sterling to have strengthened against the THB parallel to the strenthening against the USD.
Let me check:
http://finance.yahoo.com/q/bc?s=GBPTHB=X
http://finance.yahoo.com/q/bc?s=GBPUSD=X&t=1y
The charts look quite similar to me ...
Still possible that rich Thais have sold the THB and bought Sterling after Thaksin's England visa was revoked ... may be not :) .
Giotto
PS: "Time for more windy prevarication? :)"
... "Time for more windy prevarication? :)"
Giotto,
When it comes to advice on the relative quality of massage parlors in Thailand, and BKK in particular, I would defer to you every time – you’re the expert -- but not so when the question involves when to exchange US dollars for Thai baht.
Last February, I called a top of the US dollar @36 against the baht and recommended that the time was ripe to buy some baht with dollars. You cautioned against my advice:
http://www.internationalsexguide.info/forum/showpost.php?p=852568&postcount=2534
Since then, the baht has slowly strengthened against the dollar, which has dropped under 34 recently on its way back to 31 IMHO.
I don’t think we’ll be seeing the $/baht rate at 36 again anytime soon.
...
When it comes to advice on the relative quality of massage parlors in Thailand, and BKK in particular, I would defer to you every time – you’re the expert -- but not so when the question involves when to exchange US dollars for Thai baht.
...
Baht still falling, smartypants. And Minister Korn wants more. Time for more windy prevarication?Daddy07,
I also would not trust my expertise about massage parlours any more, it's quite outdated ... :)
Giotto
Member #3200
09-20-09, 20:45
I see the sad news that he was admitted to hospital sometime yesterday with a fever & needed an intravenous drip.
The future of the kingdom would be in shabbles for awhile after his sad, but eventual demise & the vultures of the past (Thaksin) would re-emerge.
The question I am asking is "What would happen in the immediate (1-3 weeks) after his passing & the days just after it? Everything (food & entertainment) would shut down? Mongering? Airport? Tourist areas?
I see the sad news that he was admitted to hospital sometime yesterday with a fever & needed an intravenous drip.
The future of the kingdom would be in shabbles for awhile after his sad, but eventual demise & the vultures of the past (Thaksin) would re-emerge.
The question I am asking is "What would happen in the immediate (1-3 weeks) after his passing & the days just after it? Everything (food & entertainment) would shut down? Mongering? Airport? Tourist areas?Good question. By the death of his sister Nana and other not close. For him. May the problems in Thailand start realy.
And by the way I would suggest to stop here talking about him who knows they could close the website magesty lease or something like this be carefull talking about King in Thailand.
EDITOR's NOTE: This report was originally written in ALL CAPITAL LETTERING and thus it was edited it to normal case lettering. In the future, please do not write reports in ALL CAPITAL LETTERING. Thanks!
======================================
Hi Jeff46,
I sincerely appreciate your contributions to the forum, but...
Would you please refrain from WRITING IN ALL CAPITAL LETTERS!
It's difficult to read and it's time consuming to fix.
On behalf of myself and your fellow Forum Members: Thank You!
Jackson
I see the sad news that he was admitted to hospital sometime yesterday with a fever & needed an intravenous drip.
The future of the kingdom would be in shabbles for awhile after his sad, but eventual demise & the vultures of the past (Thaksin) would re-emerge.I'm sure we each have our opinion of the relative merits of the red and yellow shirts, but at least Thaksin was democratically elected (with the highest turn-out in Thailand history) before being deposed in a military coup. Otherwise I suggest you keep your inane political views to yourself.
The question I am asking is "What would happen in the immediate (1-3 weeks) after his passing & the days just after it? Everything (food & entertainment) would shut down? Mongering? Airport? Tourist areas?My guess is a period of mourning in which many entertainment venues are closed, and a prohibition on the sale of alcohol. The same for a period around his funeral. How long those might last I don't know.
The airport is essential for international business and will not be shut down. Similarly the tourist industry will go on pretty much unaffected.
The long term effect will be 'interesting' though, and probably not good news.
Incidentally, I was quite shocked by the recent riots on the Cambodian border over the disputed territory. Deflecting attention away from local interests whilst engendering a united nationalism in the face of a common enemy...?
... but at least Thaksin was democratically elected ...
Without any vote-buying? 555! Think again, man! Sorry, but you can't say that he was democratically elected in 2001 nor democratically re-elected in 2005 as vote-buying (http://www.nationmultimedia.com/Election2005/news/news.php?news=01/31010501.htm) (by all the major political parties) was still prevalent in the Land of Smiles, especially in Northeastern Thailand (which population is Thaksin's strongest support).
Sure, a military coup is even less democratic! But democracy is still a dream that has not yet come true in Thailand.
By the way, I'm not pro-red nor pro-yellow shirts, I'm just pro-legalisation of prostitution (http://www.nationmultimedia.com/2009/09/15/national/national_30112220.php)! ;)
Without any vote-buying? 555! Think again, man! Sorry, but you can't say that he was democratically elected in 2001 nor democratically re-elected in 2005 as vote-buying (http://www.nationmultimedia.com/Election2005/news/news.php?news=01/31010501.htm) (by all the major political parties) was still prevalent in the Land of Smiles, especially in Northeastern Thailand (which population is Thaksin's strongest support). Sorry, vote buying doesn't stop it being democracy. Democracy is (pretty much) where everyone is allowed to freely cast their vote. Vote-buying is a more formalised process of what every political party does each year. But nobody forces those people to accept the cash for their votes, and when they are standing in the polling booth they have a free choice of who to vote for.
Sure, a military coup is even less democratic! But democracy is still a dream that has not yet come true in Thailand.Well, there was a democracy, albeit the resulting government was inefficient and corrupt (how different from everywhere else, eh?), and now there is not.
But let's leave the politics out of this, right?
Sorry, vote buying doesn't stop it being democracy. ...
You have a very poor conception of what a real democracy is! Vote-buying is the way to a ploutocracy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plutocracy), not a real democracy! Thaksin, one of the wealthiest men not ony in Thailand (and even whealthier after his first term as Prime Minister), was not democratically elected nor reelected democratically, period.
But let's leave the politics out of this, right?
Agree on this point... from now on.
Thaksin was not democratically elected nor reelected democratically, period.... because everyone had a free vote in the voting booth, and the vote was not rigged. Period.
... because everyone had a free vote in the voting booth, and the vote was not rigged. Period.
Actually, the vote was rigged! Vote-buying is a form of election fraud.You might have missed this link (http://www.nationmultimedia.com/Election2005/news/news.php?news=01/31010501.htm) in one of my recent replies to you, but it explains (partly) how vote-buying is organized in Thailand.
[...] Candidates engaged in vote-buying would try to win the support of major canvassers, who in turn would try to win the support of smaller canvassers, who then would be dispatched to find even lower-tier canvassers in the pyramidal structure common to direct-sales campaigns. A major canvasser is required to recruit 10 smaller canvassers and each of the smaller canvassers in turn has to recruit another 10 canvassers and so on. [...]
Votes are checked and analyzed at every level of this pyramidal structure, and in most cases, a greater part of the vote-buying money is given only after the preferred candidate had triumphed in the election. Apparently, it's efficient enough because if it weren't, vote-buying would have stopped long ago (but it has not)!
Moreover, you seem to completely ignore the power and great influence of the head of the family in Thailand, especially in its rural parts. Believe it or not, but when the head of a Thai family gives voting instructions, the rest of the family will follow them in the great majority of cases. And it's only one level in the vote-buying pyramidal structure.
So much for freedom of voting and democracy!
If you believe that vote-buying is acceptable in a democracy, then, we should better agree to disagree: in my book, it is not! In my country of origin, nobody never ever tried to buy my vote and I don't know anyone there whose vote was bought in an election, but it's quite the opposite in Thailand: most of the Thais that I know in I-San have been instructed by the head of their family or paid for their vote by a candidate's canvasser in each election.
Hopefully, that's my last reply on this boring topic. Other matters are way more interresting.
LittleBigMan
09-22-09, 09:39
This is LBM, take on the matter! again! Vote buying comes in many forms, we as Westerners like to believe since we take so much pride in ourselves being educated and everything we live in a true Democracy therefore when we cast our ballots we want to think we came upon the decision all on our own! Wrong! if that was the case we wouldn't get hit up with millions and billions of dollars of advertisement in the mail or T.V. or now the Web! Political groups or Corporations wouldn't be spending millions and billions to Lobby our corrupt politicians. Right now in America the debate on health care is raging and just this last Quarter the Insurance companies have already spent over 200 million to lobby against any changes and the Lawyers are lining up now too! So vote buying comes in many forms.
In Thailand, it's just pure cash that's what local Thai's think and know and don't forget the Thai mafia has their hands into everything! I was told by many Thai's that they couldn't care less who wins it's the same old shit. I've even heard from some that the problem with Thailand is that although they have democracy here the people don't know it. When it comes to voting, it's who giving the most baht that is going to win.
In the end, it's simple vote buying came way before Thaksin, the difference is he learn the game and perfected it and beat the old school guys at their own game. He went to the masses which are in the country and brought their vote with cash, he gave more than the otherside and entrenced his people in the government and when he won and got into office he rewarded them. The yellow shirts got beat at their own game no matter who they kicked and decided to do something drastic and closed the airport.
Vote buying is common and everywhere and in every different form in Thailand just like the pussy you see everywhere we go but of course it's suppose to be illegal.
One would assume politics is like pussy? as least the first letter are the same!
Politics 101 in Thailand by LBM
RonnieMonger
11-16-09, 16:53
Goyave,
Come on. Thaksin just played the game better than the rest of them - and shocked the Thai elites (e.g the old-family-rich Democrats, etc) by empowering the poor majority - a vast, vast majority - which sidetracked the REAL plutocracy.
And as for who's the richest guy in Thailand? You're really not that naive I'll bet..you know who it is.
NicFrenchy
11-17-09, 01:08
Goyave,
I think you should stop trying to analyse that shit too much, won't do you any good.
Why not accept that it isn't a democracy, people are given the illusion as long as they don't elect the wrong candidates...
Wait... didn't that happen in the states a couple mandates ago? was governor Bush really democratically elected the first time?
Politics are anything but straight and fair.
Wait... didn't that happen in the states a couple mandates ago? was governor Bush really democratically elected the first time?
There goes the French meddling in our politics again.
We did do better last year.
Slim
NicFrenchy
11-17-09, 16:02
There goes the French meddling in our politics again.
We did do better last year.
Slim
Yes, you did
ManonsanBoy
11-17-09, 18:07
What is wrong with vote buying? Look at all tyhe pork that flies around in US elections, all the useless Japanese bridges and roads to nowhere..........at least with straight cash, it does not go through middle men (or at least fewer). Thaksin was an elected leader who got thrown out by the Bangkok elite, the self arrogated rulers of Thailand.
Goyave,
...
Why not accept that it isn't a democracy, people are given the illusion as long as they don't elect the wrong candidates...
...
Read again my previous posts on this topic, NicFrenchy. I'm perfectly aware that Thailand is not a democracy. I wrote earlier: "But democracy is still a dream that has not yet come true in Thailand."
I can live with it, as long as it doesn't affect other way more important matters (such as our favorite hobby, for instance). It just makes me laugh when certain persons state that Thaksin was democratically elected, that's all. Nobody has never been democratically elected so far in Thailand, and I seriously doubt that it could happen any day soon.
No political system is perfect, but some forms of democracy are fairer than others. And most readers would admit that democracy is also more or less perfectible in various countries in the world. My conception of democracy is probably not much different than yours, NicFrenchy, and you certainly understand my point of view here.
Goyave,
Come on. Thaksin just played the game better than the rest of them - and shocked the Thai elites (e.g the old-family-rich Democrats, etc) by empowering the poor majority - a vast, vast majority - which sidetracked the REAL plutocracy.
And as for who's the richest guy in Thailand? You're really not that naive I'll bet..you know who it is.
My point is that nobody has been democratically elected so far in Thailand, that's all, folks!
I am not pro nor anti red or yellow shirts. I'm not giving good or bad marks to any side of the local political chessboard... I value some great principles, and just can't agree with someone who states that a polical leader was democratically elected in Thailand. As far as I know, this marvel has not happened yet in the Land of Smiles, considering what democracy means in my book...
For this the red are fighting start Nov 28.
My Simese cats are full of black and blue bruses
By this blog sprcial contributor G
For those interested in the thai politics. I found those comments on wordpress. Com. You can sign up and get intelligent news from Thailand. Different views from journalist may be pro taksin. But this kind of news you never find in nation or bangkokpost
As a comment to this blog report, let's have a look and see whether Thailand is a failing state, or even if it has already failed but just not fallen over yet.
According to wikipedia, the conditions which might lead one to describe a country as a failed state are disputed and I am sure there are many who would argue with any description of Thailand as being such. Never-the-less, let's have a look and C.
Social indicators
1. Demographic pressures: including the pressures deriving from high population density relative to food supply and other life-sustaining resources. The pressure from a population's settlement patterns and physical settings, including border disputes, ownership or occupancy of land, access to transportation outlets, control of religious or historical sites, and proximity to environmental hazards.
Comment: There is no doubt whatever that Thailand is a polarized society – the rich and the poor are poles apart, so yes there are plenty of demographic pressures. Many people in Thailand are wealthy on a global scale, especially the guy in the bg house, whereas many many more really do not know where the next meal might come from apart from the local ant nest or field (rats, insects, lizards and snakes are often staple fare in parts of Thailand). I would say if the demographic pressures are not yet at failed state level then they will be within 1 year. But it is a personal opinion.
1. Massive movement of refugees and internally displaced peoples: forced uprooting of large communities as a result of random or targeted violence and/or repression, causing food shortages, disease, lack of clean water, land competition, and turmoil that can spiral into larger humanitarian and security problems, both within and between countries. [6]
Comment: The fact that a huge percentage of the population of Isaan have moved to Bangkok or to other provinces where there is paid work (usual manual or domestic) must make Thailand qualify for failed state status in this respect. The pronouncement sat year by a Democrat minister who stated that the welfare of all Isaan people was a concern because if they had problems, where would Bangkok people get their servants and petrol-pump assistants was a very telling if not very educated sentiment. And of course we should not forget the thousands and thousands of Thai women now serving in the sex industry with the full knowledge and concurrence of the elites and police who run or otherwise feed off many of the entertainment venues.
1. Legacy of vengeance-seeking group grievance: based on recent or past injustices, which could date back centuries. Including atrocities committed with impunity against communal groups and/or specific groups singled out by state authorities, or by dominant groups, for persecution or repression. Institutionalized political exclusion. Public scapegoating of groups believed to have acquired wealth, status or power as evidenced in the emergence of "hate" radio, pamphleteering and stereotypical or nationalistic political rhetoric. [7]
Comment: In this respect, the actions of the big house, the judiciary, the army and the government qualify admirably and effortlessly for the failed state label. Look at their vengeance against all things Thaksin then all things Cambodian all things Hmong, all things Rohingyan, all things southern Islam etc etc. The police, army, yellow shirts, blue shirts etc act with impunity and atrocities are both commonplace and unpunished.
1. Chronic and sustained human flight: both the "brain drain" of professionals, intellectuals and political dissidents and voluntary emigration of "the middle class. " Growth of exile/expat communities are also used as part of this indicator.
Comment: Well, it is frankly hard to make much of a case for this, Ji Ungkaporn is the only intellectual who has fled into exile. Thaksin hardly fits that bill, though perhaps a political dissident. But then Thailand doesn't have any intellectuals worthy of the term to start with. So who would notice of they don; t have any now. SNAFU.
Economic indicators
5. Uneven economic development along group lines: determined by group-based inequality, or perceived inequality, in education, jobs, and economic status. Also measured by group-based poverty levels, infant mortality rates, education levels.
Comment: Another no-brainer. Isaan, Northern Thailand, Sourhern Thailand. Education disparity, wealth disparity, health disparity, infant mortality. Another tick in the box here.
5. Sharp and/or severe economic decline: measured by a progressive economic decline of the society as a whole (using: per capita income, GNP, debt, child mortality rates, poverty levels, business failures.) A sudden drop in commodity prices, trade revenue, foreign investment or debt payments. Collapse or devaluation of the national currency and a growth of hidden economies, including the drug trade, smuggling, and capital flight. Failure of the state to pay salaries of government employees and armed forces or to meet other financial obligations to its citizens, such as pension payments.
Comment: Well, the whole world has been a bit crazy, but yes, Thailand has been in economic decline, especially since the PAD trick-or-treat at the airport. The signs are not good despite the increasingly bizarre and desperate utterances of the government.
Political indicators
7. Criminalization and/or delegitimisation of the state: endemic corruption or profiteering by ruling elites and resistance to transparency, accountability and political representation. Includes any widespread loss of popular confidence in state institutions and processes.
Comment: Another no-brainer. Where is the investigation of MP's and Senators whose salary is about 60, 000THB per month? Or the police generals who own 50, 000, 000+ condos? Or the army generals who have huge estates and little holiday shacks neatly carved out of forestry or national park land? Thailand started off being ridiculously corrupt at all echelons of society and is becoming steadily worse under this ridiculous military puppet government. Where is the investigation about the number of former soldiers serving on the boards of state run enterprises? Why? What does digging a latrine qualify you for? Digging bigger and better latrines? Why are there about the same number of General staff in the Thai armed forces as there are in the USA? Where is the investigation? Where is et concern from the big house? What is the opinion of the police force, the judiciary and the bureaucracy among the public? Nobody in the government cares as long as the tea money circulates upwards.
7. Progressive deterioration of public services: a disappearance of basic state functions that serve the people, including failure to protect citizens from terrorism and violence and to provide essential services, such as health, education, sanitation, public transportation. Also using the state apparatus for agencies that serve the ruling elites, such as the security forces, presidential staff, central bank, diplomatic service, customs and collection agencies.
Comment: Another no-brainer. Drive along any Thai road. Investigate the crash of 1997 and see how many government people made a fortune. Unpunished atrocities by the army, fraud, theft and racketeering by the police force, political leaders facing assassination attempts with alleged links to the Armed forces and the big house. It just goes on and on.
7. Widespread violation of human rights: an emergence of authoritarian, dictatorial or military rule in which constitutional and democratic institutions and processes are suspended or manipulated. Outbreaks of politically inspired (as opposed to criminal) violence against innocent civilians. A rising number of political prisoners or dissidents who are denied due process consistent with international norms and practices. Any widespread abuse of legal, political and social rights, including those of individuals, groups or cultural institutions (e. G., harassment of the press, politicization of the judiciary, internal use of military for political ends, public repression of political opponents, religious or cultural persecution.)
Comment: Another no-brainer. Where is the rule of law in Thailand? The law is just another instrument of persecution, discrimination and repression. For those with money, the law is what you want it to B. 3 years ago, a poor lorry driver was sentenced to death for being drunk and killing some bystanders. LAst year a rich man's son got 10 years (which he hasn't yet seen) for getting pissed off and driving his birthday present Mercedes into a crowd. Where is the consistent application of law in Thailand, it isnlt even a judicial system which values precedent.
Rule of law? Lese majesty, computer crimes act, endlessly flexible definitions of 'National security' governments labeling dissenters as 'traitors'. And don; t forget what happens to human rights lawyers who get arrested by the police. So much for Abhisit's promise to solve cases. How about the Saudi gem thefts and murders?
7. Security apparatus as 'state within a state': an emergence of elite or praetorian guards that operate with impunity. Emergence of state-sponsored or state-supported private militias that terrorize political opponents, suspected "enemies, " or civilians seen to be sympathetic to the opposition. An "army within an army" that serves the interests of the dominant military or political clique. Emergence of rival militias, guerilla forces or private armies in an armed struggle or protracted violent campaigns against state security forces.
Comment: Another no-brainer. Blue shirts, rent-a-mobs, alleged use of intelligence agencies to plan assassinations of deposed duly-elected prime ministers manipulation of the armed forces command structure to prevent the rise of schisms and factions within the military.
7. Rise of factionalised elites: a fragmentation of ruling elites and state institutions along group lines. Use of aggressive nationalistic rhetoric by ruling elites, especially destructive forms of communal irredentism (e. G., "Greater Serbia") or communal solidarity.
Comment: Not such a clear case this one, most of the bureaucracies are not fragmented, they are for sale to whatever the government of the day is. Though it was once the case that the police were emasculated for being a hot-bed of Thaksinistas mayB.
7. Intervention of other states or external factors: military or Para-military engagement in the internal affairs of the state at risk by outside armies, states, identity groups or entities that affect the internal balance of power or resolution of the conflict. Intervention by donors, especially if there is a tendency towards over-dependence on foreign aid or peacekeeping missions.
Comment: PAD, blue-shirts, rent-a-mobs for hire, secret army units etc, though no overt reliance of state aid, except in respect of overseas scholarships for the sons and daughters of the already filthy-rich.
Comment: On balance. I don't thnk there is any doubt. Thailand may not be a Somalia or a Zimbabwe or a Burma, but it is trying very hard to get there. Thailand is, in my opinion already a failed state and I fear for Thais in the next few years.
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WordPress.com
For those interested in the thai politics. I found those comments on wordpress. Com...
To be more precise, the website URL is the following: http://thaiintelligentnews.wordpress.com/ (and the full article can be found here: http://thaiintelligentnews.wordpress.com/2009/11/25/a-technical-look-thailands-fail-state-condition/).
Some points are interesting, but the whole thing is very melodramatic (too much in my humble opinion). I don't buy this for instance (and among many other exaggerations): "I would say if the demographic pressures are not yet at failed state level then they will be within 1 year."
Regarding the 'failed state' exaggeration - I'm from the Bad Place, and I can tell you that the economic prospects, inequality, and social problems seem worse there than here.
Just put in this article. Its from overseas thai.
TAT has already stopped to advertise Thailand. Land of smile.
Thailand is a wild place with weapons of violence readily available all over the place. The Thais, are also people who are prone to violence, as a nature. Political violence, has been increasing common in recent times. The equation spell violent underground movement against the oppressor.
But the Red Shirt remain positive at this point, expressing themselves through acceptable means, going real funny and hilarious at times.
But if not cautious, and justifications is given to them to turn negative, the ingredients are there for more than fire crackers in a northern city, and we are talking about real bang for the bucks in Bangkok.
As one intelligence analyst said, "Elevating the car bomb situation is the right wing objective, to which I suspect, is related to the Red Shirt climactic protest in Bangkok. If a bomb goes off at that time, the right wing can very much convince the Thais that a coup is needed against the Red Shirt. "
Like we say, when positive energy is met with negative energy, watch out, it could get really bad in Thailand.
Regarding the 'failed state' exaggeration - I'm from the Bad Place, and I can tell you that the economic prospects, inequality, and social problems seem worse there than here.Probably easier right now to find a job in the LOS than the US, as well! Ironic, isn't it.
NicFrenchy
11-27-09, 09:56
Probably easier right now to find a job in the LOS than the US, as well! Ironic, isn't it.
You mean for a farang?
You mean for a farang? Yes, but of course, the type of job opportunities available to farang (already living here) are extremely limited.
Right now, there are very few jobs in the US, especially for people involved in a number of sectors requiring advanced education and experience.
The real unemployment rate is estimated to be over 17 percent.
Just found this report online
http://news.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=1014222
sounds like next week could be interesting time in bkk.
Videos of the events yesterday:
Democracy Monument, this video is really important, there are speculations circulating right now that a third party was somehow involved when the violence started. The Thai Army had installed a music truck playing music to calm the crowd down, and suddenly violation erupts:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ztF6hUryt88&feature=player_embedded
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z8X1rRxHjtE&feature=player_embedded
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AATZQeLIUCY
Events at Democracy Monument (seams to me that the sequence of the videos is not correct):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RGADFlswXGM&feature=channel
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=czeGy8E-01s&feature=channel
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-WxJcO2b6k0&feature=channel
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GKbYPu05flo&feature=channel
More videos:
http://www.facebook.com/video/video.php?v=1458781068947&ref=nf
http://www.facebook.com/video/video.php?v=1458799829416&ref=nf
Giotto
Another video, the events at Democracy Monument behind the lines of the army:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NnLf0GgYTu4&feature=player_embedded#
Some more videos/pictures listed here.
http://www.oknation.net/blog/canthai/2010/04/11/entry-5
Very strange.
Giotto
Redfield10
04-12-10, 23:28
Give me a break. It can be difficult in the US if you don't have a college degree. I think the unemployment for those that don't have a college degree is about 5%. Maybe less. That's not to say at times it can't be diffcult for educated people, also. But the educated eventually will adapt and go into a different career or whatever. I don't have much sympathy for those that don't' further their education or skills, but just expect the "unions" (aka the taxapayers. Aka. The rest of us) to take care of them.
I will tell you this. With the current administration wanting to raise taxes to the roof to cover all the costs associated with the expanding social programs, it's not going to get easier for potential workers in the US to find jobs.
With the expanded socialism, the standard of living for all will go down. Just look at history. And don't use the homogeneous Sandanavian countries as an example of how socialism can work. They are comprised of small populations of homogeneous ethnic groups.
The "only" ticket to insulate oneself against poverty anymore is education. And sometimes that isn't enough. Particulary in countries that get away from wealth creation and free market economies.
There's a reason the former communist countries are going back to more free market, capitalistic economies. They provide the best chance for both individuals and for the country as a whole.
The truth is that many expats in Thailand (outside of those who have been sent there by their companies, or those who are already retired and independently wealthy or receive a decent pension) who have difficulty making it in Thailand would also have difficulty making much of a decent to good standard of living in the West, also.
THERE, I SAID IT.;
Probably easier right now to find a job in the LOS than the US, as well! Ironic, isn't it.
One wonders if the loss of our good Abhisit government means we will inevitably return to the bad days of 2003-2008 when Udon Thani, Beach Road, and some other options were essentially closed down most of the time. I'm afraid it seems likely - oh how I hate democracy.
A very good collection of important pictures and videos about the events from last Saturday:
http://thailand.media140.org/bangkok/
Giotto
Here we go:
http://thainews.prd.go.th/en/news.php?id=255304100026
Giotto
PS:
OK, friends from the censorship office,
I found something:
http://asiapacific.anu.edu.au/newmandala/2010/04/13/kasit-role-of-the-monarchy-may-be-revamped/
Comment No. 7, R. N. England, from today. One of the clearest background analysis of the roots of the actual problem that I have found up to now.
Giotto
Give me a break. It can be difficult in the US if you don't have a college degree. I think the unemployment for those that don't have a college degree is about 5%. Maybe less...The truth is that many expats in Thailand...who have difficulty making it in Thailand would also have difficulty making much of a decent to good standard of living in the West, also. THERE, I SAID IT.;From the US Bureau of Labor Statistics: THE EMPLOYMENT SITUATION -- MARCH 2010
http://www.bls.gov/news.release/empsit.nr0.htm
"Nonfarm payroll employment increased by 162,000 in March, and the unemployment rate held at 9.7 percent, the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics reported today. Temporary help services and health care continued to add jobs over the month. Employment in federal government also rose, reflecting the hiring of temporary workers for Census 2010. Employment continued to decline in financial activities and in information.
Among the major worker groups, the unemployment rates for adult men (10.0 percent), adult women (8.0 percent), teenagers (26.1 percent), whites (8.8 percent), blacks (16.5 percent), and Hispanics (12.6 percent) showed little or no change in March. The jobless rate for Asians was 7.5 percent, not seasonally adjusted."
Currently, in America, jobs for educated Americans in a number of fields are few and far between.
In Thailand, any English speaking person with a college degree, a TOEFL qualification, and half a wit can find a job teaching English.
Btw, according to the CIA World Factbook, Thailand's unemployment rate is 1.9%.
http://www.indexmundi.com/thailand/unemployment_rate.html
Now go back to your Tea Party and drool over Sarah P. for awhile longer!
Here we go: http://thainews.prd.go.th/en/news.php?id=255304100026 Giotto...
I liked the part that says, "Also, all popular websites and social networks such as facebook, twitter, hi5 and my space will be under thorough watch."
Redfield10
04-16-10, 04:49
Actually, I'm going back to my well paying, high in demand job. Mainly because I got myself highly educated and even if I was laid off it wouldn't be that difficult finding a decent, equivalent paying job.
The current unemployment rate for college graduates (lower for those with advanced degrees such as myself) is 4. 0% and that rate is probably high. Lok it up.
Personally, as I don't know one single person I consider a friend or even acquaintance that is unemployed. Of course, I tend to hang out with college graduates. Most make good money like myself. And not the uneducated types.
So, yes, I have sympathy for those that get laid off. No, I don't have a lot for those who refused to better themselves to take advantage of opportunites that do exist.
Teaching in Thailand. LOL. Hey, if it's what you want to do. Fine. I prefer to make good money based on demand for my services. And go to Thailand to spend it. No way to I want to get "stuck" there. Likek a lot of folks. And a few on this board.
From the US Bureau of Labor Statistics: THE EMPLOYMENT SITUATION -- MARCH 2010
http://www.bls.gov/news.release/empsit.nr0.htm
"Nonfarm payroll employment increased by 162,000 in March, and the unemployment rate held at 9.7 percent, the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics reported today. Temporary help services and health care continued to add jobs over the month. Employment in federal government also rose, reflecting the hiring of temporary workers for Census 2010. Employment continued to decline in financial activities and in information.
Among the major worker groups, the unemployment rates for adult men (10.0 percent), adult women (8.0 percent), teenagers (26.1 percent), whites (8.8 percent), blacks (16.5 percent), and Hispanics (12.6 percent) showed little or no change in March. The jobless rate for Asians was 7.5 percent, not seasonally adjusted."
Currently, in America, jobs for educated Americans in a number of fields are few and far between.
In Thailand, any English speaking person with a college degree, a TOEFL qualification, and half a wit can find a job teaching English.
Btw, according to the CIA World Factbook, Thailand's unemployment rate is 1.9%.
http://www.indexmundi.com/thailand/unemployment_rate.html
Now go back to your Tea Party and drool over Sarah P. for awhile longer!
Redfield10
04-16-10, 04:56
Well, I make triple figures because of my education and experience here in the hated country. And pay taxes up the ass because of it.
However, my takehome pay is multiples of what most teachers make in Thailand. And you are right, if you can fog a mirror there, you can get a teaching job.
So, you can have your 1. 9% unemployment rate no social safety nets. And be one paycheck away from poverty.
I'll take my nice salary, big pension coming up in a few years. Huge savings, and come over and screw the women a few times a year. And never have to worry financially when I am old like many farang in the LOS will have to do.
"In Thailand, any English speaking person with a college degree, a TOEFL qualification, and half a with can find a job teaching English.
Btw, according to the CIA World Factbook, Thailand's unemployment rate is 1.9%.
http://www.indexmundi.com/thailand/...yment_rate.html "
Actually, I'm going back to my well paying, high in demand job. Mainly because I got myself highly educated and even if I was laid off it wouldn't be that difficult finding a decent, equivalent paying job...Personally, as I don't know one single person I consider a friend or even acquaintance that is unemployed. Of course, I tend to hang out with college graduates. Most make good money like myself. And not the uneducated types.Yes, that's great, it sounds like you have a good job. It's a good thing that President Obama & Co. put the brakes on the economic tailspin when they did. Let me know when the good times start to roll again. Too bad the dollar's value has been steadily slipping against the baht since early last year. At least salaries are going up for educated Americans, right?
Out of curiosity, how would you set up, and/or manage, a program (in any country) that delivers a highly educated workforce matched with job demand? Do you think this is possible today in 21st Century America?
What about Thailand? The picture is much less than clear right now for young Thai people. New university graduates are probably wondering about their future job prospects right about now. Those moonlighting as bar girls, coyotes, and go-go dancers included!
Redfield10
04-17-10, 23:05
You seem to be contradicting yoursself. I thought you were talking about how m ch better it was in Thailand as opposed to the US.
I'm not sure how taxing folks more and creating artificial jobs with that tax money is "putting the brakes on the economic tailspin. " That didn't seem to work in the old Soviet Union. Centralized government doesn't seem to work well.
I'm not concerned with setting up or managing an educated workforce matched with job demand. Supply and demand takes care of all of that. It's a moot point.
What is happenning in the US and what will continue to happen is that the standard of living will continue to decline for a lot of folks. Probably not those that are highly educated, though, but that generally doesn't happen. Those folks just move into parallel fields because they can transfer their skills.
Regarding Thailand. When has there ever been great jobs for university graduates? It's supposed to be worse now? And is that someone's fault?
I know, I know. It's GEORGE BUSH'S FAULT!
I actually cheer on the Obama socialism. I benefit from it. I have a public sector job. Will get a huge pension from the taxpayers who foot my pension. And can still moonlight in the private sector (the "real" sector that creates wealth). So I am a bit of a hypocrite, I admit.
If I were not on the government dole and if the democrats/socialists were not for the high taxes that pay for my huge pension, I would be very angry as I would certainly campaign for lower taxes to stimulate the economy and create more jobs and wealth for all including myself.
But I am on "the taxpayer" dole. That's the problem with growing govrnment too big. Pretty soon everyone is on the "dole" until it becomes so big that it implodes. Which always happens. I just hope that doesn't happen in the USA for another 30 years or so. LOL.
Yes, that's great, it sounds like you have a good job. It's a good thing that President Obama & Co. Put the brakes on the economic tailspin when they did. Let me know when the good times start to roll again. Too bad the dollar's value has been steadily slipping against the baht since early last year. At least salaries are going up for educated Americans, right?
Out of curiosity, how would you set up, and/or manage, a program (in any country) that delivers a highly educated workforce matched with job demand? Do you think this is possible today in 21st Century America?
What about Thailand? The picture is much less than clear right now for young Thai people. New university graduates are probably wondering about their future job prospects right about now. Those moonlighting as bar girls, coyotes, and go-go dancers included!
You seem to be contradicting yoursself. I thought you were talking about how m ch better it was in Thailand as opposed to the US.Better in Thailand? Depends on what you are talking about. It's better for old men who like to screw young women cheaply, that's for sure. Overall, it costs less to live here, but for people with an American mindset, the quality of life is probably not as good.
Six or 7 months ago it might have been easier here for an unemployed American farang to find a low end teaching job, but now that America's economic situation is improving there appears to be more jobs in the US. Unless one really wants to live in TH, who cares, right?
Regarding Thailand. When has there ever been great jobs for university graduates? It's supposed to be worse now? And is that someone's fault?Yes, Thailand's economy was very strong up until recently. Even today, the amount of property and infrastructure development in Bangkok alone probably exceeds all American cities combined. Bankers, planners, architects, engineers, construction managers, etc., are necessary to make this happen. Despite this, many segments of Thailand's economy are currently in decline. Who's fault? Greedy Thais, (mostly wealthy families, politicians, and government bureaucrats), who cannot work together and have soiled the country's reputation.
I actually cheer on the Obama socialism. I benefit from it. I have a public sector job. Will get a huge pension from the taxpayers who foot my pension. And can still moonlight in the private sector (the "real" sector that creates wealth). So I am a bit of a hypocrite, I admit.That's OK. Greed is the American way. I've done a lot of contract work for gov't agencies in the US, and I've never saw so many people do nothing for a living, except whine and take paid holidays.
If I were not on the government dole and if the democrats/socialists were not for the high taxes that pay for my huge pension, I would be very angry as I would certainly campaign for lower taxes to stimulate the economy and create more jobs and wealth for all including myself.So, it's OK as long as your personal public teet does not run dry! Nice. Take your public sector salary and fly to TH to spend it on P4P.
Thanks for the interesting discussion. I do think we agree on a lot.
Chok dee!
:)
NicFrenchy
04-18-10, 10:34
Does anyone here really give a shit who between Fon Tok or Redfield has the bigger dick?
PM or Fight club would be more appropriate. Thank you.
http://thestar.com.my/news/story.asp?file=/2010/4/19/worldupdates/2010-04-19T153828Z_01_NOOTR_RTRMDNC_0_-478044-2&sec=Worldupdates
Does anyone here really give a shit who between Fon Tok or Redfield has the bigger dick?
PM or Fight club would be more appropriate. Thank you.You are right in this instance, NicFrenchy. Nevertheless I cannot resist interjecting that Redfield's protestations of high education are not bourne out in his prose (the only hard evidence we have of the gentleman).
Redfield10
04-21-10, 06:13
"Protestations" of higher educaton? I think a better word would be "contention. " Also, there should be a comma after "Nevertheless. " Maybe you Brits use "bourne. " In America, it is correctly spelled "born."
You are right in this instance, NicFrenchy. Nevertheless I cannot resist interjecting that Redfield's protestations of high education are not bourne out in his prose (the only hard evidence we have of the gentleman).
You can watch lots of the videos of the 10th April action on the UDD link.
Be warned, you will see blood and guts.
http://twitter.com/uddth/
Get your girl to translate the Thai commentary for you.
http://www.bangkokpost.com/breakingnews/175350/thai-army-rejects-japanese-journalist-death-probe
http://www.nationmultimedia.com/home/Silom-people-batle-red-shirts-with-bottle-missiles-30127672.html
(Yellow/PAD are now in effect Silom/Multicolored - shirt change only)
PAD/Yellow now "Multicolor" - see link below
http://www.nationmultimedia.com/home/2010/04/22/politics/The-political-battle-becoming-dirtier-by-the-day-30127632.html
I guess tonight things may come to a head. Time will tell.
I guess tonight things may come to a head. Time will tell.You called it. RPG attacks on the Sala Daeng BTS station. Bangkok Post is reporting at least 3 dead and 75 injured. Government claims rockets fired from the 'red shirt' side in Lumpini Park. Thing will get uglier...
check this out (wait through the commercial): http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xd1i3v_users-olivierrotrou-desktop-201004_news?start=0
Also, take a look at this analysis of what might come next in the battle:
http://2bangkok.com/10/100423BuildingConditionsforAction.shtml
Multi-Color Shirts attacking police.
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xd1loe_users-olivierrotrou-desktop-201004_news
Article on the problems :
http://search.japantimes.co.jp/cgi-bin/eo20100423a2.html
From the very Yellow "The Nation" newspaper today, quite shocking that someone working for them is now being a bit more neutral and real, thats my view.
http://www.nationmultimedia.com/home/
OVERDRIVE
A simple guide to anarchy and chaos
By Thanong Khanthong
Political upheaval is underway. Most people are confused as to what exactly is going on. Here are my observations:
1. The red shirts are rallying against the 2006 coup. They are staging a modern version of a people's revolution. They have all three elements necessary for a revolution: A party, mass support and an army. The April 10 clash between red shirts and troops represents the first round of an armed struggle against the government. They are applying pressure with the street rally, via parliamentary means and also through violence. At the same time, a third party is carrying out acts of sabotage almost on a daily basis outside the capital.
2. The red shirts want to amend the Constitution to weaken the monarchy. Dr weng Tojirakarn, one of the red-shirt leaders, admitted the other day that one of the political aspirations of the red shirts is to reduce the Thai monarchy to a similar status to that of Japan, the UK, the Netherlands and others.
3. The chief sponsors of the red shirts are Thaksin Shinawatra, the Pheu Thai Party, the elite, the military and an unnamed militia, the police, big businesses, NGOs and leftists. This movement also appeals to the masses both in Bangkok and upcountry.
4. In essence, the red-shirt phenomenon is a clash between new money and old money for power - which has little to do with the claims of the masses.
5. Apart from weakening the monarchy, the red shirts intend to give amnesty to banned ex-Thai Rak Thai politicians and also to core leaders of the red shirts now detained under the Internal Security Act.
6. I am surprised by the change of heart of many characters at this juncture. Rosana Tositrakul, a progressive senator, sprung a surprise by proposing amnesty for the red-shirt leaders so they can have a soft landing after the dispersal of the rally. Kasit Phirom, the foreign minister, recently spoke in Washington DC and called for reform of the Thai monarchy in a changing world. Anand Panyarachun, a former prime minister, views the red shirts as part of a social and political movement similar to the human rights movement in the US. He found nothing unusual in Gen Chavalit Yongchaiyudh and Somchai Wongsawat's request for His Majesty the King to mediate. Banharn Silapa-Archa was more straightforward, calling the move by Chavalit and Somchai as "inappropriate" because this crisis should not involve the monarchy.
7. The Democrat Party is at risk of being dissolved. The Election Commission has ruled that the party should be dissolved for financial irregularities. But the case will have to be vetted by the attorney general and it may or may not go to the Constitution Court. There have been attempts to accelerate this process to dissolve the party. If Abhisit dissolves Parliament, he would serve as acting PM. If the Democrats are dissolved while he is PM, there will be a political void. With a dissolution, there exists only the Senate. The Senate president will go through a process to pick a new PM. The Constitution could even be amended to allow a non-MP to serve as PM. Thus the motivation of some who call for a House dissolution.
8. PM Abhisit is indecisive. He is afraid that if troops move in to evict the red shirts, they might be met with armed resistance. If there are more deaths, he will be blamed. Deputy PM Suthep Thaugsuban and Army chief Gen Anupong Paochinda are also reluctant to use force. The indecisiveness and stalemate has raised security problems in the capital to boiling point.
9. Negotiations for a truce are difficult. Abhisit has called the armed red shirts "terrorists". If he were to hold talks with the red shirts now, it would amount to negotiating with terrorists. It is difficult to distinguish the terrorists from the innocent protesters.
10. The mechanisms for maintaining law and order are breaking down. The police are doing virtually nothing against repeated red-shirt violations of the law. Illegal weapons are brought into Bangkok in vast quantities.
11. People in multicoloured shirts, tired of the chaos, are coming out to air the message of peace. They have been partially infiltrated by the yellow shirts, who are waiting anxiously for the government to take decisive action against the reds.
12. We are on the threshold of anarchy and a possible change of regime. If no action is taken or solution found, a clash between the reds and the multi-coloured shirts could take place again to widen the conflict. By that time, a civil war might not be avoided and it will be almost impossible handle.
13. All parties are playing at brinkmanship, holding the entire country hostage. Abhisit himself is caught between a red-shirt revolution and an impending military coup, as the situation appears already to be out of control.
http://blogs.straitstimes.com/2010/4/22/flashpoint-silom
Flashpoint Silom
April 22, 2010 Thursday, 08:22 AM
Nirmal Ghosh witnesses a possible sign of things to come
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
1am, Thursday : I got to Sala Daeng yesterday (Wed) afternoon, and made my way to the Au Bon Pain cafe right next to the Dusit Thani hotel, at the corner of the intersection across from the Red Shirt barricades next to Lumpini Park.
A couple of hundred pro-government demonstrators were gathered on the sidewalk outside waving Thai flags and yelling at the Red Shirts. There were police making sure they stayed clear of the road to let traffic through. More police were lined up at the side gate to the Dusit. But passions seemed high on the part of the flag-waving pro-government crowd, and their numbers were steadily growing. Sensing the mood, I tweeted that Sala Daeng was an accident waiting to happen.
Later, I watched it unfold. There was little satisfaction in having been right.
I had made a round of the Red Shirt barricades by then. Behind the bristling bamboo and car tyre barricade some four to five metres high, the Red Shirts were roaming around with bamboo staves, some of them sharpened. One seemed to have arrows. Others seemed to be making slingshots.
I was told by journalist friends that they had chilli powder mixtures as well though I didn’t see any. I didn’t see any firearms. At one point a big BMW pulled up and reversed behind the barricade and a uniformed chauffeur got out, opened the boot and started unloading food. Another time, a pickup truck came by and Red Shirts on the truck hurled big plastic bags full of styrofoam-packed food high into the barricade where they were grabbed by eager hands and distributed. Many motorists wound down windows as they passed and cheered the Red Shirts.
I made my way back to the other side of the street and hunkered down in the Au Bon Pain and wrote my first report while the yelling outside grew more and more hysterical. Then the cafe finally decided to close early, and I shifted to the business centre at the Dusit and wrote my second report. When I was done, around 8.30pm, I went back out and joined other journalists watching the drama unfold.
The mood among the pro-government crowd became more and more ragged, with a couple of passing red-shirted taxi drivers having their cabs bashed. But around 10pm, the mood appeared to settle as many people left. I was on the point of heading home when some rowdy men began to get out of hand, running out into the intersection threateningly.
I saw the precise moment when the riot started. At around 11pm, some of the pro-government demonstrators were running out into the intersection taunting the Reds, and then one finally let fly with a large stone. That of course was the signal for a barrage of stones and bottles from the pro-government mob.
Only about 20 or so were involved, but it was enough to create tremendous chaos. Glass shattered on the street and rocks cracked and bounced as they went for the Reds – who retaliated with rocks and slingshots of their own but held their line and did not come charging out.
Meanwhile cross-traffic was still flowing, crunching over the rocks and broken glass. I wonder if some of the cars were hit as they crossed between the battling sides.
The Reds vastly outnumbered the pro-government protestors, but held their ground. The pro-government men periodically surged out into the intersection to throw missiles at the barricades. Some hung back, crouching in the shrubbery on the verge, aiming carefully and letting loose with slingshots – deadly when fired with small ball bearings or marbles.
All the while, police deployed on the ground, and soldiers on the pedestrian overpass above, did absolutely nothing to stop or separate the two sides. In fact the police even moved one of their trucks out of the way of the rampaging pro-government men.
A Thai man dressed in a white shirt spoke to me as we took cover behind a wall, with rocks flying around us. "What do you think Thais should do?" he asked me. It was a difficult question. I thought for a moment and said "Sit down and talk about the issues".
He looked sad and then told me that "Thais only learn when many people are killed".
Seconds later, a large Thai man in ordinary clothing translated a sign lying on the sidewalk which proclaimed that Red Shirts were goons in the pay of ex-premier Thaksin Shinawatra. Then he put his arm around me and led me away and whispered in my ear "I am Red Shirt".
He said he was a taxi drover, and the pro-government men were from the People's Alliance for Democracy (PAD), the formerly yellow-clad right-wing group that closed down three airports in 2008 to paralyse the pro-Thaksin government of the time, paving the way for its fall which eventually came through a court decision to disband it because one of its executives had cheated in the last election. That paved the way for the Democrat Party to take power.
It is obvious to independent observers that the so-called "no colour" or "multi-colour" crowds that have emerged lately, are largely the PAD in a different form. They have been urging the government to crack down on the Red Shirts of the United Front for Democracy against Dictatorship (UDD), and have even threatened to do it themselves if the government and army did not.
They certainly tried at Sala Daeng, though not in force. But the Reds were fairly disciplined and thankfully the riot did not escalate into a full-blown fight. At least twice, the Red Shirts fired firecrackers at the pro-government men who ran helter skelter, but returned to pelt them with stones. The men were banging paving stones on the hard concrete to break them into smaller pieces. One young man ran past me with a sack full of empty bottles, heading for the fight.
At one point a foreigner who appeared to be a tourist, wearing black clothes but with a red armband, was roughed up by the pro-government men, but some among them got him away. That was at around 1145pm and seemed to trigger the police into action.
They formed a double line at the top of the road facing the pro-government crowd, which included some women who were hurling rocks and bottles as much as the men. The arrival of the police seemed to embolden them and they started screaming abuses at the Reds – insulting Thai terms like "hia" – monitor lizard – and "khwai" – buffalo, a common insult used by a certain section of the Bangkokian middle classes against rural people from the north-east, where most of the Reds are from.
The police then turned around and faced towards the Reds, which came as a bit of a surprise. But two big police trucks finally showed up then and parked right in front of the police lines, and then the violence seemed to peter out a bit.
The interesting part of the evening was that the police and soldiers did nothing to stop the pro-government crowd, which incidentally was also, like the Reds, in violation of the Emergency Decree which prohibits assembly of more than five people. Yet they were allowed to assemble and yell at the Reds in a gradual escalation all afternoon, which finally exploded at night with the police and soldiers simply looking on.
Sala Daeng was and could be the flashpoint, which will see Thais battling Thais in this divided country that appears to many, to be sliding into a civil war. The right-wingers say they are fighting for the nation and the King. The Red Shirts – from the same nation – say they are fighting for their democratic right to have an election and have the results accepted and respected. The right-wingers despise and denigrate them as ignorant rabble seduced by Thaksin's money.
Someone tweeted me in the middle of all this, to say that "This is straight out of the 1976 playbook. Get goons to do the dirty work and wash your hands of it".
The year 1976 was a dreadful one in which mobs egged on by right-wing rabble-rousers launched into a horrible massacre at Thammasat University, in which leftist students were hanged and beaten and shot to death.
Thais say their nation has never been so divided as it today. The rage on either side is palpable. Families and friends and couples have been torn by it. Red Shirts kick and stamp on pictures of Privy Council president general Prem Tinsulanonda, Prime Minister Abhisit Vejjajiva, and army chief general Anupong Paochinda, and scrawl obscene and insulting graffiti against them. Pro-government right-wing elements heckle and attack Red Shirts and kick and smash their cars and shout "Ai! Khwai!" as they pass.
A people versus people bloodbath may be part of the playbook, forcing the army to wade in. But times are different now from 1976, and there is no telling what the consequences may be.
April 10 was a signal of just how bad things can become. And they could get a lot worse unless there is some political compromise at the top. The window for such a compromise, however, is closing fast.
In today’s The Nation, Supalak Ganjanakhundee wrote: "Thais appear to be keen on expanding the ongoing conflict instead of containing it, with many different colour-coded groups emerging to confront the Red-Shirt protesters. Such confrontation would only orchestrate violence, if not a civil war."
It is worth quoting Supalak further, because he explains the echo of 1976.
"On Tuesday" he wrote, "an unknown group of people put up stickers on Silom Road saying that the Red-Shirt group wanted a new Thailand with Thaksin as president. A move like this suggests that the right wing and elitist forces are employing old tactics to label the opponents as anti-monarchists."
‘’On October 6, 1976, student activists in Thammasat University were massacred just because they were accused of being anti-monarchists.
"The stickers on Silom Road prompted an immediate denial from Thaksin, with the Red-Shirt leaders declaring on Tuesday that it was a dirty political game. They know the power of anti-monarchy accusations.
"If Abhisit and his government are gentle and fair enough, they should be able to limit the conflict and stop a third hand from using this sensitive issue to make things worse.
"Calling the protesters terrorists and turning a normal political protest into a national security issue and a threat to the revered institution, is uncivilised and unfair. Besides, such tactics will only make the problem more complicated and difficult to resolve," concluded Supalak.
http://www.facebook.com/notes/prachatai/former-thai-senators-call-on-government-to-stop-blocking-and-manipulating-media/385692413892
Former Thai senators call on government to stop blocking and manipulating media
Statement from Former Thai Senators (2000-2006)*, “Demanding the government to stop blocking media channels and using the state-run media to present one-sided information on the crackdown of the demonstration on April 10, 2010”
The crackdown of the United Front for Democracy against Dictatorship (UDD) demonstration by the government security forces under the Emergency Decree on April 10, 2010 has resulted in 24 deaths of demonstrators and soldiers, more than 800 injured and many went missing. Not only have we yet to hear a straightforward and credible explanation of this tragic event from the Government, we have also seen unreasonable blockade of voices from the UDD side. Hundreds of community radios, TV stations, websites and SMS, which the government branded as “Red-shirted media” including the satellite-based People Channel television station (PTV) and Thairednews have been shut down by the Government.
Worse, the Government has used state-owned televisions as well as private channels (such as TNN) to provide one-sided information to deny its responsibility for the tragic violence and pass the blame onto the demonstrators who simply exercise their constitutional rights to demand a fresh election by Parliament dissolution.
Such media control by the Government and concerned agencies (especially the Centre for the Resolution of Emergency Situations (CRES), the Royal Thai Army, the Public Relations Department, TV channel 11 (NBT), TV channel 3, 5, 7, 9 and Thai PBS), is a serious violation of people’s basic rights under the Constitution, the Universal Declaration of Human Rights and the International Covenant of Civil and Political Rights.
In the name of members of the Senate 2000-2006 undersigned, we urge Prime Minister Abhisit Vejjajiva, the Democrat Party, the rest coalition parties as well as media professionals who appeared to have acceded and cooperated with the Government in providing biased information about the April 10, 2010 crackdown, to show responsibilities for the acts that led to the great loss of Thai people as follows;
1. To immediately cancel the State of Emergency and related legal instruments in the name of national security as the said declaration and the enforcement is an unlawful act under the Constitution and laws.
2. Stop all the obstruction of public information flows and news reports presented in print media, radio and TV stations, telecommunications, the Internet and all other kind of media, in order to return the constitutional rights to information and expression to the people.
3. We urge media institutions and media professionals to uphold highest professional ethics by providing fact and giving equal opportunities for all concerned parties to present their information and evidence. It should stop allowing one-sided information and evidence from the government.
Last but not least we, members of the Senate 2000-2006, express our political stance here that we consider the demonstrators demanding for the House Dissolution as an exercise of rights to demonstration in order to express their political views according to laws and democratic system under the constitutional monarchy as guaranteed in sections 3, 7, 26, 28-30,37, 39-41, 44 and 65 of the 1997 Constitution of the Kingdom of Thailand (Please note here that we do not recognize the present Constitution (2007) which is the legacy of coup d’etat). A deprivation and violation of these rights to freedom by unlawfully using the State of Emergency Decree, therefore, is a humiliation of human dignity. This violation against people’s rights to freedom is an abuse of the state power and hence justifies the people’s invocation of natural rights to uprise against the rulers who use injustice power to govern the country as President Abraham Lincoln states:
"Any people anywhere, being inclined and having the power, have the right to rise up, and shake off the existing government, and form a new one that suits them better. This is a most valuable - a most sacred right - a right, which we hope and believe, is to liberate the world.” By Abraham Lincoln
* Former Senators 2000-2006
Panat Tasneeyanond (Tak)
Napinthon Srisanpang (Ratchaburi)
Wiboon Shamsheun (Kalasin)
Montri Sinthawichai (Samut-songkram)
Sawai Phramanee (Nakhon Ratchasima)
Boontan Dokthaisong (NakhonRatchasima)
Prakiat Nasimma (Roi Et)
Surachai Danaitangtrakul (Roi Et)
Boonya Leelead (Songkhla)
Sompong Sakawee (Songkhla)
Khampan Pongpan (Udon Thani)
Somkiat Soralam (Nakhon Sawan)
Gen. Manas Aramsri (Suphanburi)
Prateep Ungsongtham Hata (Bangkok)
Sb-Lt. Amnuay Thaiyanont (Prachuapkhirikhan)
Porn Penpas (Buriram)
Pol.Gen. Wirun Fuensaeng. (Chiang Rai)
Adul Wanchaitanawong (Mae Hong Son)
Thaworn Kiatchaiyakorn (Chiang Mai)
Kamnuan Chalopathump (Sing Buri)
Pha Aksornsua (Khon Kaen)
Amorn Nilprem (Ubon Ratchathani)
Manu Vanitchanont (Surat Thani)
Nanthana Songpracha (Chainat)
Anuchart Banchongsupamitr (Uttaradit)
Paiboon Upatising (Phuket)
Sutat Chansaengsri (Petchabun)
Niwet Pancharoenvorakul (Ayutthaya)
Srimuang Charoensiri (Mahasarakham)
Multi-Color Shirts attacking police.
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xd1loe_users-olivierrotrou-desktop-201004_newsThanks for the link. This is a good video. The photographers and cameramen are completely fearless.
Unfortunately, this link and the one I posted yesterday from the dailymotion site, appear to be blocked.
Try this blog to see the Silom video video: http://thailand.media140.org/bangkok/
I've also noticed that there are very few Thailand photos on flickr for the past 12 or so hours. And the ones I've posted (from out of the country) are not showing up on keyword (tag) searches.
MICT censorship, maybe?
...
MICT censorship, maybe?Fon Tok,
LOL, is that a serious question?
Of course not! This is a free country. Nobody would never ever ever censor anything!
For more information about the issue:
http://facthai.wordpress.com/
Giotto
Fon Tok, since the 2006 coup censorship and charges under the LM law has become normal.
Its only possible to tell lies and convict people and parties if you control the news flow.
Since 2006 the news has been controlled totally by "Yellow" side, which in itself casts massive shadows of any alleged charges and convictions made.
As the world says "Coups and convictions of people based on evidence gathered under a coup appointed system basically means nothing can be believed as its all likely manufactured" - which is why Thaksin is allowed to travel the world, the worlds governments will not rubber stamp coup led convictions and coup instigated charges.
This is why you see the Senators below attempting to push the issue and get the government to stop being so one sided in their control of the media.
I think to this date that none of the Red Shirt deaths on April 19th has been shown on national TV, 19 people.
All they have shown is constant coverage of injured solidiers and constant streams of "it was the Reds who did everything".
Its disgusting how biased the coverage is, so had that even the Senators now have publically rebuked the Democrats/BJT coaliation.
The Democrats are a disgrace, the world knows it, however most people in Bangkok and the South are oblivious to what they are doing.
Thanks for the link. This is a good video. The photographers and cameramen are completely fearless.
Unfortunately, this link and the one I posted yesterday from the dailymotion site, appear to be blocked.
Try this blog to see the Silom video video: http://thailand.media140.org/bangkok/
I've also noticed that there are very few Thailand photos on flickr for the past 12 or so hours. And the ones I've posted (from out of the country) are not showing up on keyword (tag) searches.
MICT censorship, maybe?
AJ report which features a part on biased TV in Thailand.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pIqkTX_FKDU&feature=player_embedded#!
http://news.ph.msn.com/regional/article.aspx?cp-documentid=4050050
Thai crisis shows perils of military constitution: Suu Kyi
Thailand's political crisis shows that a constitution drawn up by the military can never deliver stability, Myanmar opposition leader Aung San Suu Kyi said Saturday, according to her party.
Myanmar's military junta, which has ruled for nearly half a century, produced a new constitution as part of a "road map to democracy" which includes elections due to be held later this year.
The election plans have been widely criticised and subject to a boycott by Suu Kyi's party, the National League for Democracy (NLD), which would have had to expel its leader if it wanted to take part.
NLD spokesman Nyan Win said that in a meeting Saturday with Suu Kyi, she discussed the situation in Thailand, which has been wracked by crises since a 2006 coup ejected Prime Minister Thaksin Shinawatra.
"A new government coming to power under a constitution drawn up by the military will never be stable," he cited her as saying.
"We do not need to see very far. We just see Thailand," she said. "Thaksin was an elected person. The military seized the power from an elected person. The constitution was drawn up by the military," she said.
"After that, what happened with the first (government)? It was not stable," she said of the short-lived administration that followed the coup.
"This was a result of the constitution being written by the military."
Nyan Win said Suu Kyi was not giving an opinion on the rights and wrongs of the conflict in Thailand, where red-shirted campaigners largely loyal to Thaksin are calling for the ouster of Prime Minister Abhisit Vejjajiva.
Abhisit's army-backed administration was appointed in a parliamentary vote after a court ruling ousted Thaksin's allies.
The Reds are also calling for the restoration of a 1997 pro-democracy constitution which preceded the rise to power of Thaksin, who is now living in exile to avoid a jail sentence for corruption.
Fon Tok,...LOL, is that a serious question?Serious Giotto? :D The flow of 'red shirt' pictures returned after awhile, so it probably wasn't the MICT, possibly just a server issue. Possibly, too, fewer folks are out there taking photos as the situation has become more dangerous. I mainly just wanted to give the new link to the Sala Daeng vids.
Fon Tok, since the 2006 coup censorship and charges under the LM law has become normal.I do think The Pro thought I was serious, though, because I got a good synopsis opinion on the reality of post coup Thai media. As I've been living in TH since before the 2006 Coup, I've seen and read a lot. Also, I know the media has been both used and oppressed throughout Thai history. Good thoughts there, Pro. Be careful they don't come looking for you! ;)
Attached pics of Thai gunslingers in Silom & Patpong last week. Them boys be packin' some serious heat!
Thanks for the link. This is a good video. The photographers and cameramen are completely fearless.
Unfortunately this often leads to death.
[/QUOTE]Attached pics of Thai gunslingers in Silom & Patpong last week. Them boys be packin' some serious heat![/QUOTE]What is interesting is the fact that most of the arms are 12 gauge shotgun for riot control and close quarters combat. Even the M-16 versions are the carbine versions with shorter barrels. Even saw a Steyer-Aug assault rife that a lot of the Europeans use.
thaipoliticalprisoners.wordpress.com - 24 APRIL 2010 -
High Tension In Bangkok - 3 up-dates -
Vejjajiva government has decided to crush the red shirts. Tension is very high and the red shirt leadership is urging supporters to be prepared.
Abhisit has personally rejected negotiations: “Thai TV says Prime Minister Abhisit Vejjajiva has rejected protesters’ demand he dissolve Parliament in 30 days to end a political crisis that has paralyzed the country.”
Update: “Thai Prime Minister Abhisit Vejjajiva on Saturday rejected scaled-back demands that he dissolve Parliament in 30 days, prompting anti-government protesters to pull out of negotiations to end the political crisis gripping the country. The breakdown dashed hopes for an imminent peaceful resolution to the deadlock, which has been punctuated by increasing hostility and bloody street violence.”
Al Jazeera reports: “Abhisit Vejjajiva, the Thai prime minister, has rejected an offer of compromise with so-called red shirt protesters who have rallied for the dissolution of government for the past six weeks.” It is added that: “Abhisit said that he could not accept the offer because the red shirts ‘use violence and intimidation’. He said: “The 30-day ultimatum is not an issue. The dissolution [of parliament] must be done for the benefit of the entire country, not just for the red shirts, and it must be done at the right time…”.
It looks like the hardliners have had a victory within the government and that the ever stubborn Abhisit has had his way.
Update 1: The Bangkok Post has Abhisit saying this of the red shirts’ proffered compromise: “No, I reject it.”
In The Nation, Thammasat University historian Thanet Aphornsuvan said that “the principles of non-violence may not be enough to prevent them from ‘being crushed by the Army’,” and added that “this was because the same method – an appeal for non-violence – had never worked in the past in Thailand.”
Reflecting his pessimism on negotiations, Gothom Arya of Mahidol University said in the same article of Prime Minister Abhisit: “Peace is in his hands. It’s up to him to make it, alive or dead…”. He seemed pessimistic however.
Update 2: The Bangkok Post reports on an important piece being put in place prior to a crackdown on the red shirts. Recall that army chief Anupong Paojinda has long said that he would reject an unlawful order to crackdown on the red shirts and that earlier in the week the Civil Court issued a ruling on the legality of a crackdown that was interpreted in different ways. Now the Post reports that to “erase public doubt, Thailand’s Civil Court on Saturday said the Centre for the Resolution of the Emergency Situation (CRES) can indeed disperse anti-government protesters now occupying Bangkok’s prime business district ‘if necessary’, but emphasised that it must be ‘carried out in line with international standards’.”
Now even when the state kills people it claims to have done so “in line with international standards.” Perhaps this provides Anupong with the legal basis for action against the red shirts.
Another part of the government’s actions against the red shirts and preparing for a crackdown likely involves unstated “evidence” against red shirts in alleged violent acts. This is a common action in previous military actions that have led to bloodshed. A member of the opponents’ camp is pushed forward, in custody, and is said to have spilled the beans. This time, it involves an actor and the Department of Special Investigation. PPT has pointed out previously that DSI has been highly politicized. Now DSI has taken to parading alleged criminals and holding news conferences and television spectacles making grand and unsupported accusations. The Nation has an account of the arrest and interrogation of Methi Amornwuthikul, who is claimed to be a “prominent red shirt.” Methi is a red shirt, but an odd character and was previously in the media for his semi-nud_e modeling and more recently for swinging punches at a Puea Thai Party campaign worker (see the video of the latter incident here).
With yellow shirts, now in multi-colors rallying each day in numbers as high as 10,000 to 15,000, most of the elements for a crackdown that can be “justified” are in place. The threat to crush the red shirts appears ever more likely to be put in train. PPT assumes that the okay from the palace is already in place.
Update 2: The Nation leads with the Methi story and red shirt denials. The critical point for PPT is, however, the use of the alleged confession, with Democrat Party spokesman Buranaj Smutharaks claiming that “Methee’s confession confirmed a belief that acts of sabotage on April 10 were committed by the red shirts, not a ‘third party’.” The government’s role in killings and injuries is now totally whitewashed for the Democrat Party and the public is expected to believe – and many yellow shirts will – that the red shirts killed their own.
Update 3: Like many others, PPT is hearing many rumors of what caused the proposed negotiations/compromise to fall apart. On story has to do with Sukhumbhand Paribatra talking and reaching something of an agreement with red shirts and, it is said, Thaksin Shinawatra in Brunei. That fell apart because of hardline resistance from the yellow-shirt wing of the Democrat Party including Korn Chatikavanij, some close to the palace – guess who – and some in the military who want to crush the red shirts. They see this as the final battle. Part of the agreement was said to involve a “national government” that was to quickly amend the constitution. Abhisit would not have been interim prime minister, and he is said to have opposed that.
Abhisit remains ensconced with the more militant of the commanders of the armed forces, while Anupong remains against the use of force, fearing a large body count and seeing Bangkok’s major shopping and hotel area burned to the ground. It is said that it is unlikely that he can hold out much longer against the hardliners.
The big kill is coming ?
http://redphanfa2day.wordpress.com/
April 25 – Daily news from the red-shirt rally at Ratchaprasong
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RATCHAPRASONG, APRIL 25, 2010: United Front for Democracy against Dictatorship (UDD) protesters in Bangkok today swapped their trademark red clothing for clothing of many colors ahead of a massive securty crackdown expected to commence in the early hours of Monday morning.
As tens of thousands of democracy supporters flocked to the Ratchaprasong rallying point dressed in normal street wear, large bundles of clothes were delivered to the stage by red-shirt sympathizers for distribution to those with only red clothes.
At the same time tens of thousands of police from all corners of the country were converging on Bangkok, reportedly armed with shotguns, in preparation for what protest leaders have been told will be a massive crackdown commencing around dawn tomorrow morning.
By early evening UDD leaders had received information that a huge force of almost 90,000 police and soldiers had been assembled for a massive final crackdown attempt.
At his evening media briefing core UDD leader Jatuporn Prompan said 214 units of soldiers had been positioned close to the Ratchaprasong intersection in preparation to dispersing the protesters.
Mr. Jatuporn said the government has assembled a massive force of “more than 40,ooo soldiers and 44,000 police” to crackdown on the red-shirts, with information indicating the police will be the first wave of security forces to move against the protesters, with the army bringing up the rear.
UDD co-leader Natthawut Saikua told protesters the decision to change out of their distinctive red clothing was based on information that more than 200 Thai soldiers were patrolling Bangkok on motorbikes mimicking the brutal tactics of the Iranian Basji, confronting red-shirt supporters traveling to or from the Ratchaprasong rally site and beating them.
http://thaipoliticalprisoners.wordpress.com/
April 25, 2010
Ji Ungpakorn on events in Bangkok
PPT posts the full text of Ji Ungpakorn’s latest update below. In particular, PPT notes with concern the report of the mistreatment of the latest lese majeste prisoner to be arrested, Tanyawut Taweerotemakul. If any PPT readers have further information that you are willing to share, please send it to us at thaipoliticalprisoners@gmail.com
Latest from Bangkok
Giles Ji Ungpakorn
After the military-backed Abhisit Government rejected a peace offering by pro-democracy Red Shirts, this unelected Government is preparing for a military crackdown against civilians. Rather than hold democratic elections, they are prepared to cling to power with violence and blanket censorship of all forms of media.
Mobile motorcycle troops carrying lethal weapons are driving around Bangkok intimidating people wearing red shirts on the streets.
30,000 troops are massing to use lethal force against civilian pro-democracy protesters in Bangkok.
NGOs and “peace” groups continue to support the Government stand and blame both sides for any violence. NGOs therefore believe that the people don’t have a right to demand democracy and that the Government has a right to mobilise troops against them.
Khon Kaen Red Shirts have stopped van loads of police and taken their weapons. Police seem to have cooperated.
Red motorcycle “cavalry” are setting up road blocks on outer ring road around Bangkok to stop troops.
In Sakon Nakorn, North-east, Red Shirts have block a paramilitary border patrol police barracks.
Red motorcycle “cavalry” have surround troops with weapons at Rungsit mint, just north of Bangkok.
Thousands of Red Shirts in Udon, in the north-east, seize a police station and all the arms! Fighting for Democracy!
Previously, the army and the Government shot dead 20 civilians on 10th April in Bangkok. Abhisit and his Government continue to lie about the events and claim that the Red Shirts are “terrorists”.
Agent provocateurs have fired M79 grenades on two occasions, while the army and the Government are openly backing fascist mobs who try to provoke the Red Shirts. These fascist mobs are PAD supporters wearing different coloured shirts and claiming to be “people of Bangkok”. They have used bottles and sling shots against the Red Shirts. One soldier put a gun to a policeman’s head to stop the police from arresting fascists throwing bottles. The PAD want a mainly appointed parliament. They took over the international airports with the help of the army in 2008.
..........Removed for the purpose of posting on here....... see original link for missing text.
Red eagle, Tanyawut Taweerotemakul, the latest lese majeste prisoner and manager of UDD USA’s site, has been beaten up in prison
For a look at just who the 'red shirts' are, take a look at the flickr photo group:
http://www.flickr.com/groups/thairedshirts/pool/
I really do enjoy your pictures and comments, so with a grain of salt I must say that I have been to Bkk 3 times in the last 3 years and really enjoy the city. So, I must say picture 6564 from below is amazing. I love the soldiers in black and white stripes, the person next to that one, and the one with the purple umbrella. It looks like one of the soldiers is enjoying them too.
Keep up the information as it is greatly appreciated.
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Its only possible to tell lies and convict people and parties if you control the news flow.
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This is why you see the Senators below attempting to push the issue and get the government to stop being so one sided in their control of the media.
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The Democrats are a disgrace, the world knows it, ...The Pro,
Obviously you know it all.
Question: Were those mentioned senators elected or appointed?
Guys, IT IS NOT THAT EASY as you can read it in the reports below. It is easy to sympathize with the Red Shirts - but you definitely have to look into some details.
But - this is the ISG - and I am NOT willing to get involved into stupid political discussions with polarized foreigners, who think they can judge about the political situation here and teach the Thais how democracy has to work.
Giotto
But - this is the ISG - and I am NOT willing to get involved into stupid political discussions with polarized foreigners, who think they can judge about the political situation here and teach the Thais how democracy has to work.
I agree though I'd love to hear your opinions. Guess I'll have to visit LL for that.
Many of us foreigners might want to learn that different democracies work differently. Just because the democracy doesn't work the way we THINK our democracy works, doesn't mean it isn't a legitimate democracy. And who said that democracy is the best way anyway? Indian democracy or Chinese communism? Which would you choose?
As to be expected the PAD popped up, press conference today:
http://www.nationmultimedia.com/home/PAD-to-submit-demands-to-PM-Thursday-30127975.html
The best comments I have found up to now in local internet discussions:
--> "I vote for a move of "Shut the F#uck up" and don't make a bad situation worse... "
--> "Go and occupy the airport and government house and refuse to move until the reds leave the shopping district. "
--> "Sondhi, the yellow shirt founder and leader, has a few tricks up his sleeve. He's going to get all his rich freinds to withdraw their billions from the banks to cripple the Thai economy. Then they are going to stop eating rice and give their mia nois to s*x tourists to cripple Isaan revenues. "
--> "Only one way to settle it once and for all . . . . a dance battle."
Giotto
Member #3428
04-26-10, 09:09
--> "Sondhi, the yellow shirt founder and leader, has a few tricks up his sleeve. He's going to get all his rich freinds to withdraw their billions from the banks to cripple the Thai economy. Then they are going to stop eating rice and give their mia nois to s*x tourists to cripple Isaan revenues. "
GiottoClassic. I love this one.
Very well worth a read :
http://asiapacific.anu.edu.au/newmandala/2010/04/27/the-deep-political-crisis-within-the-royal-thai-army-officer-corps/
.
Cunning Linguist
04-29-10, 23:20
I have been following the events in Thailand for the past few years and this seems to be getting serious. I am planning to come in August and am betting that things will work themselves out (sort of, kind of, in a round about way) by then (maybe even in a coup). Am I right or am I hopelessly misinformed (or overly optimistic)?
I am sure that it is in the interests of people like Giotto that it will end by then. In any case, I am still mystified at why the baht is so firm in spite of the political meltdown. Thailand defies all logic.
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Thailand defies all logic.Yes.
Nothing to add.
Giotto
Here's a good summary article on today's internet censorship situation in Thailand:
http://globalvoicesonline.org/2010/04/29/thailand-online-censorship-amid-protests/
I found a fun and quite good test that tries to determine if someone would support the Reds or the Yellows. It assumes that the person taking the test has no knowledge about the beliefs of the two groups.
http://www.helloquizzy.com/tests/red-or-yellow-in-modern-thailand
I took the test and predicted more or less what I was expecting. I am not an expert on Thai politics but maybe a member with more knowledge could say us if the questions in the test are relevant to the reality or nonsense.
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