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Uneducated people casting votes; people who have a vested interest to support one party, . Isn't that so in all democracies?Wolvenvacht,
Correct, I agree. And this is why it is so difficult to argue for Suthep's position, and this is why he has not much support amongst academics and intellectuals. Who wants to argue against one basic principal of our western style democracies: one person one vote!
But (and this is where the Thai component comes into play) :) :
- another basic democratic rule is the protection of minorities, do not rule AGAINST nearly 40 % of the people (PT does)
- the middle class, the entrepreneurs, the industry is needed, the elite, they generate the tax income.
- programs like the rice scheme a major vote buying programs and should be cancelled. Furthermore that program is highly unethical (trying to increase the world rice price will cost the poorest of the poor more money to buy their daily portion of rice) and educates anyway quite lazy people to be even more lazy.
The problem is that using the one person one vote system there is NO WAY to get rid of this extremely corrupt gang of PT politicians that are filling their pockets right now. A change in government every 4 to 8 years would be way better, to keep the corruption levels from both sides down. But right now there is NO CHANCE that a political change will take place by voting.
Giotto
.
Even if the red shirts stay out of the game, there could be violence from a "third party".
As you said, Suthep is an idiot. Maybe he could even hire some "third party" to let the violence escalate.Trashcanman77,
If the redshirts DO NOT SHOW UP it will be very difficult to blame them for possible violence of a "third party". If they make clear from the beginning that they will NOT BE IN BANGKOK to avoid violence Suthep will have problems to blame others. This game is expected and too obvious. He will commit political suicide with this game.
.
If there will be a coup due to violence, do you really think it will be over fast?
Don't you think the reds will fight back this time?The initial coup it will last 3 days, and it will be quiet. All demonstrators will be home by then. Nobody will get hurt, as usual. The army provides buses to go home.
Then there will potentially be an uprising coming from the North / North-East. The redshirts will not take another coup without resistance.
The army knows that, and that's why they will try to avoid a coup under all circumstances. Only if the situation really escalates the army will take over, and most likely the generals will immediately try get the redshirt leadership, PT and the DP on a round table to keep them informed and get them involved in all necessary political decisions to stabilize the situation.
Power will be returned to the people very fast, to avoid the uprising to develop. The army will FORCE the politicians to somehow agree on reforms and implement those reforms under massive time pressure. Most likely there will be major flaws in this reforms, and afterwards the next political deadlock will pop up.
But who knows, may be Thailand is lucky and gets out of this mess :) .
Giotto
PS:
I know, now all the political hardliners from the red side will pop up and state, that the Amart (old elite) wants the military to take over, and that nobody of them has real interest to return to a democratic system. The country can be controlled much better if an army general is leading.
That's bullshit! The Amart is not that stupid. They know that the time of military dictatorship is over. They need a stable democratic system to keep dollars flowing into the country, generated by exports of agricultural goods and electronic parts, cars, tourists spending money and the domestic spending of the Thai people. If there is a coup the coup will be different than all coups before, and the target of the coup will definitely be solely to avoid further violence, resolve the demonstration and let the Thai economy and and tourism return to normal.
Interesting write up on the ongoing boycott of Singha products.
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/01/11/world/asia/thai-beer-loses-esteem-after-heiresss-remarks.html
I had a read through most of the Zenjournalist account of recent Thai history up to almost the present. While it's chock full of detail, I have to say it shows a bias toward Thaksin mainly by omitting or else avoiding any description of significant detail of his own sins. Some of those (for instance the land deal to his wife) get mentioned so briefly that it's easy to imagine they're unimportant or trumped up. The drug war and the last minute law change to allow the Singapore telecom deal are omitted entirely. It's hard to seem balanced while ignoring the most serious charges against one side. Toward the very end he seems to become finally critical of Thaksin, but maybe too little too late by then.
Wolvenvacht
01-11-14, 09:25
Look at the last 2 Presidential elections in the USA. Almost 50% of Americans don't pay any federal taxes and they can vote.Sure, and among those 50% who don't pay taxes are the super-rich.
Paul Kausch
01-11-14, 09:42
Look at the last 2 Presidential elections in the USA. Almost 50% of Americans don't pay any federal taxes and they can vote. They got what the deserve though, Ha! Ha! For the stupid voters who have no skin in the game. As was noted that's the democratic way. Once the pendulum swings far enough to the right or left it will come back the other way. Like the weather – it's a giant cycle.
Sure, and among those 50% who don't pay taxes are the super-rich.In 2010 the wealthiest 10% of the US population paid 70.6% of all federal income taxes. The wealthiest 1% paid 37.4% of all federal income taxes.
In 2010 the wealthiest 10% of the US population paid 70.6% of all federal income taxes. The wealthiest 1% paid 37.4% of all federal income taxes.I think this whole thread of conversation belongs in the USA section of the internationalpartisanpoliticsguide.info
Can we please get back to talking about things that are important, such as ping pong balls?
Franciscass
01-11-14, 11:06
In 2010 the wealthiest 10% of the US population paid 70.6% of all federal income taxes. The wealthiest 1% paid 37.4% of all federal income taxes.Hi Paul,
Enjoy your posts. The reason why top earners in the US pay such a large percentage of total taxes is twofold.
Many Americans live hand to mouth thus not earning enough to pay much in federal income taxes (although they pay a lot of what little they earn in local and indirect taxes).
The highest paid receive such a disproportionally large portion of the national pie the figures you mention result but not because they pay a higher portion of their income. In fact people like Warren Buffett and Mitt Romney availing of classification of income anomalies (e. G. Earned interest) along with other deductions pay less than 20% tax.
Fatboy 1980
01-11-14, 12:03
Hello people,
I was planning on going to BKK Feb 4, but the current situation is making it appear less likely. I understand the election will be Feb 2nd, so I am just wondering what BKK will be like 2 days after. I was really looking forward to this trip.
Paul Kausch
01-11-14, 19:08
Hi Paul,
Enjoy your posts. The reason why top earners in the US pay such a large percentage of total taxes is twofold.
Many Americans live hand to mouth thus not earning enough to pay much in federal income taxes (although they pay a lot of what little they earn in local and indirect taxes).
The highest paid receive such a disproportionally large portion of the national pie the figures you mention result but not because they pay a higher portion of their income. In fact people like Warren Buffett and Mitt Romney availing of classification of income anomalies (e. G. Earned interest) along with other deductions pay less than 20% tax.As this has nothing to do with the forum, I'll keep it brief and say no more. Your point about sales taxes, etcetera being a more severe burden for the poor is true. As to the tax rate for the wealthy: in 2010 the average tax rate for the top 1% was 23.39%, for the top 10% it was 18.46%, for the top 50% it was 13.06% and for the bottom 50% it was 2.37%.
Look at the last 2 Presidential elections in the USA. Almost 50% of Americans don't pay any federal taxes and they can vote.Yes, but to keep this in perspective, those that don't pay are categorized as either not earning enough money, or due to special provisions in the tax code that benefit certain taxpayers, notably the elderly and working families with children.
In summary, one can say these people don't make enough money to pay taxes, but the reality is nobody can really buy anything and avoid the everyday sales tax. So I would say people pay at least the nominal 6-10 percent.
All these people should be allowed to vote, else the country turns more into a Cuban type government.
Coincidence!
Suthep and 200 of his whistle blowers on bicycles just drove through my Soi. A minute ago!
LOL.
Giotto
Did ya run out and hand him suitcase full of cash ? !
Sure, and among those 50% who don't pay taxes are the super-rich.
Not really true. Instead of paying the max 39 percent federal tax, they are able to weasel their tax bracket to the under 20% range. Bottom line though, even though they do boast that they pay more taxes than anyone else, from a percentage perspective, it is not even close to being fair.
Paul Kausch
01-11-14, 20:44
Instead of paying the max 39 percent federal tax, they are able to weasel their tax bracket to the 10% range. Bottom line though, even though they do boast that they pay more taxes than anyone else, from a percentage perspective, it is not even close to being fair.See my previous post. The actual average tax rate paid by the top 1% is ten times the actual tax rate paid by the bottom 50%.
Fair is a subjective word. What you think is fair I may not think is fair and vise verse.
To be fair, everyone should pay the same percentage wise.So should the top 1% have there taxes reduced to one-tenth the amount they currently pay? Should the bottom 50% have their taxes increased ten-fold? Should it be something in between? A flat tax means either the rich get a big tax reduction or the poor get a big tax increase.
Of course an alternative strategy would be to get rid of all the crooks in USA politics, put an end to the billions upon billions of dollars in pork wasted every year and reduce everyone's taxes. Thailand is not the only country with corrupt politicians who steal from the taxpayers. It happens in the USA, only on a much grander scale.
See my previous post. The actual average tax rate paid by the top 1% is ten times the actual tax rate paid by the bottom 50.
Fair is a subjective word. What you think is fair I may not think is fair and vise verse.
So should the top 1% have there taxes reduced to one-tenth the amount they currently pay? Should the bottom 50% have their taxes increased ten-fold? Should it be something in between? A flat tax means either the rich get a big tax reduction or the poor get a big tax increase.
Of course an alternative strategy would be to get rid of all the crooks in USA politics, put an end to the billions upon billions of dollars in pork wasted every year and reduce everyone's taxes. Thailand is not the only country with corrupt politicians who steal from the taxpayers. It happens in the USA, only on a much grander scale.It is true that if our garden produces 10 tomatoes I should get 5 and you the other 5. That is fair. I acknowledge though that when politics and money are involved, the word fair can get twisted by surrounding rhetoric from others and their differing situations, so your point is well taken.
The answer about the 1% and reducing, the answer is yes, though I don't think flat tax can ever be realized. There are too many designed loop holes in USA society which would immediately re-classify the inequity all over again. All we would be doing by changing would be playing the whack-a-mole game to make things fair until kingdom come. Thai society, it seems, is suffering from the same left versus right politics as the USA, though I admit I know very little of what is going on in Thailand.
As one selfish bastard though, I would like to see the exchange rate tank to about 60Bht to 1 dollar after all this is over. Even though, we will still have a few clods here that will continue to complain about the prices.
Anybody have an update how the renovations at SOL are coming along?
I asked this a few pages back and nobody chimed back.Check this with the US IRS, here guys are busy discussing US tax issues. No time for sex issues.
Franciscass
01-12-14, 03:34
As this has nothing to do with the forum, I'll keep it brief and say no more. Your point about sales taxes, etcetera being a more severe burden for the poor is true. As to the tax rate for the wealthy: in 2010 the average tax rate for the top 1% was 23.39%, for the top 10% it was 18.46%, for the top 50% it was 13.06% and for the bottom 50% it was 2.37%.No offence but the old adage of lies damn lies and statistics comes to mind. As in Thailand, in the USA money decides who gets elected. The rich through their lobbyists rig the tax code to their benefit resulting in an ever increasing inequality in income distribution, I. E. Profit versus wages. If you take out military spending the portion of GDP that the government takes in taxes is one of the lowest among developed economies. I'm aware it borrows the shortfall but if the suggestion is that rich Americans are paying too much in taxes sorry don't buy it.
Franciscass
01-12-14, 03:50
Damn, elections being held Sunday 2nd February? My flight lands BKK that morning. I'm guessing all bars will be closed, no alcohol to be sold for 3 days? Massage shops closed?
What's the real deal; what is shut down during general elections?Cannot imagine elections will be held on Feb. 2nd. My take. This will in retrospect be seen as a landmark in Thai history, a battle between a peasant majority and privileged minority who feel intellectually and socially superior. However it plays out in the short term and my guess is a coup eventually democratic rule will be restored but not before Thaksin and his family are neutralized. Politics in Thailand is local and regional and once the Chidchops, Silpa Archs and the other noses in the trough realize who's calling the shots they will fall into line. That said, times they are a changing, the north has awoken and will be no longer settle for the crumbs from the rich man's table.
SirWilliam4
01-12-14, 04:09
So, when did this become the USA Tax Forum? How about we get back on track?
SW4
Thanks for your unbiased and informative posts on the current polictal crisis in BKK. Just helps to know whats going on.
Cheers
So, when did this become the USA Tax Forum? How about we get back on track? SW4Not enough people on the ground giving mongering reports. That's why these other discussions are here. You will get over it I am sure. Heck, I cant even get an answer on my SOL question. Just not enough people mongering at this time so relax.
The rich through their lobbyists rig the tax code to their benefit resulting in an ever increasing inequality in income distribution, I. E. Profit versus wages. If you take out military spending the portion of GDP that the government takes in taxes is one of the lowest among developed economies. I'm aware it borrows the shortfall but if the suggestion is that rich Americans are paying too much in taxes sorry don't buy it.Both the rich "and" non-rich parties rig the tax code. It is not just the rich. 200 hundred years of squabbling between the rich and poor brought us to the current balancing point. If the poor had the tax advantage, you would lean more socialistic. Leaning the other way weeds out the middle class and suppresses the poor even more.
I think every country evolves through this process, and Thailand is no exception.
Interesting comments regarding the military.
No offence but the old adage of lies damn lies and statistics comes to mind. As in Thailand, in the USA money decides who gets elected. The rich through their lobbyists rig the tax code to their benefit resulting in an ever increasing inequality in income distribution, I. E. Profit versus wages. If you take out military spending the portion of GDP that the government takes in taxes is one of the lowest among developed economies. I'm aware it borrows the shortfall but if the suggestion is that rich Americans are paying too much in taxes sorry don't buy it.How much is too much? How much is enough? For most leftist governments, there is never enough.
Now let me point out that the USA taxes income, NOT wealth. The two are not synonymous. A great many wealthy people have very small incomes because they can hide it through various and sundry accounting techniques. Everybody shouts "tax the rich" and then go about screwing an ever-decreasing pool of "high income" people. California comes to mind. The fact of the matter is that the top 1% of taxpayers in the US, based on AGI, pay roughly 40% of the total federal tax and that's been true for several years.
Now when you reach the point, as many of us have already, where some gov't agency or another takes 50% - 60% of everything you make, come back and tell us that you don't pay enough taxes.
Phordphan, Agreed, 100%, excellent post. Francisass is totally lost. He apparently believes that military spending is a tax. And he has absolutely "0" idea of what's going on in Thailand. However, since in his simplistic world there's only good and bad, the Democrats are the evil capitalists and Pheu Thai are the only ones looking out for the poor and the working man. I'm not going to defend the Democrats and the very undemocratic instincts of many of their members. However Pheu Thai was created for the purpose of doing the bidding of a billionaire businessman who achieved success through dubioius means. And their rice purchase program, which appears to be benefiting wealthy traders, large producers and politicians more than poor farmers, is a disaster for the country.
Pheu Thai, like its predecessors, has done at least one thing right though. Marginal tax rates on business are much lower in Thailand than the USA, and the tax code is much simpler. That's one of the reasons that Thailand perennially does reasonably well, with decent economic growth and low unemployment, despite the always volatile politics.
We might want to move this conversation to the Thai Politics thread:
http://www.internationalsexguide.info/forum/showthread.php?2526-Thailand-Politics
IamJohnGalt
01-13-14, 04:07
How much is too much? How much is enough? For most leftist governments, there is never enough.
Now let me point out that the USA taxes income, NOT wealth. The two are not synonymous. (Political Rant below, if you want a monger report don't read. I promise monger reports if I get to Thailand next month.)
Absolutely.
Warren Buffett (and others with lots of wealth) recently supported higher taxes on high incomes. Hell, he just wants to eliminate future competition. He already has his billions, and wants to make it impossible for younger entrepreneurs to get as much wealth and power. This is what all the sociopathic wealthy / elite / aristocratic do and have been doing for centuries. Bankers produce nothing and don't even use their own money to make loans. They just used political power to create a monopoly on creation of credit from nothing, and they use it to impoverish everyone else.
Obamacare isn't about better health for the poor, its about more profits for insurance industry, pharmaceutical industry, and more consistent profits for hospital industry.
The US gov major job has been handing out mostly corporate welfare since Lincoln destroyed the constitution and eliminated free individual sovereign people with his High Tarriff / Corporate Welfare War in 1860-1865.
I will give you an example and let others go into more detail.
You mention the "land deal".
Did you know. Nobody was ever convicted of wrong doing in this "land deal"- no even Thaksins former wife. No convictions. No charges. Nothing.
Did you know Thaksin was "guilty" as his former wife did this land deal while Thaksin was PM. Nothing to do with Thaksin. Just associated as his wife did it.
So. Nobody (except Thaksin) was convicted of anything, his former wife not convicted of anything for this alleged illegal land deal she did.
So yes, when you mention trumped up in the same breath as "former wife's land deal" then yes. Its about right.
An analogy would be 3 people A, B and C standing together. A shoots C. B is arrested because they were with A when A shot C. A walks away free with no charges for the shooting, but B is locked up because they were there.
Pretty much everything the coup appointed AEC and courts alleged in the period 2006-2008 was trumped up. Most of it was verbal testimony only. People made to make allegations against the man the coup kicked out.
This is normal practise. Whenever there is a military coup someone has to be the bad guy, someone has to be guilty of many bad things, and so the coup generals will make up all sorts of allegations and put them into history to justify what they did. Fiction becomes fact with the passage of time.
Look at what has happened to Moursi in Egypt and the Muslim Brotherhood. Military propaganda always does the same thing.
Thaksin and Moursi alleged to be corrupt and bad people by the Military who kicked them out.
Muslim Brotherhood and Red Shirts alleged to be terrorists by the Military backed people.
There is pretty much a set agenda for how the military pull off coups, spread their propaganda, grant themselves amnesty and then appoint their own judges and constitution court to protect them for years into the future after the coup.
I had a read through most of the Zenjournalist account of recent Thai history up to almost the present. While it's chock full of detail, I have to say it shows a bias toward Thaksin mainly by omitting or else avoiding any description of significant detail of his own sins. Some of those (for instance the land deal to his wife) get mentioned so briefly that it's easy to imagine they're unimportant or trumped up. The drug war and the last minute law change to allow the Singapore telecom deal are omitted entirely. It's hard to seem balanced while ignoring the most serious charges against one side. Toward the very end he seems to become finally critical of Thaksin, but maybe too little too late by then.
(Political Rant below, if you want a monger report don't read. I promise monger reports if I get to Thailand next month.)
Absolutely.
Warren Buffett (and others with lots of wealth) recently supported higher taxes on high incomes. Hell, he just wants to eliminate future competition. He already has his billions, and wants to make it impossible for younger entrepreneurs to get as much wealth and power. This is what all the sociopathic wealthy / elite / aristocratic do and have been doing for centuries. Bankers produce nothing and don't even use their own money to make loans. They just used political power to create a monopoly on creation of credit from nothing, and they use it to impoverish everyone else.
Obamacare isn't about better health for the poor, its about more profits for insurance industry, pharmaceutical industry, and more consistent profits for hospital industry.
The US gov major job has been handing out mostly corporate welfare since Lincoln destroyed the constitution and eliminated free individual sovereign people with his High Tarriff / Corporate Welfare War in 1860-1865.This ignorant rant should be moved / removed.
I suggest the OP move to N Korea where is preferred life style will be adequately satisfied (until he learns about bribes being required for every thing).
IamJohnGalt
01-13-14, 23:56
Indeed it does as it appears the modern day equivalent to American kids wearing Beatles haircuts in the 1960's.Have to agree that this is the case, even politicians 'grow their hair' in an attempt to get support from 'longhairs. '
I have been using this 'nom de plume' for more than a decade. The reactions to it have certainly varied over that period.
Member #4698
01-14-14, 00:07
I have been using this 'nom de plume' for more than a decade. The reactions to it have certainly varied over that period.John Galt is a great 20th century figure, but he is no Straight-Tongue, Hawkeye, Deerslayer, Letherstocking. 555.
Natty Bumpo
Paul Kausch
01-14-14, 00:15
Have to agree that this is the case, even politicians 'grow their hair' in an attempt to get support from 'longhairs. '
I have been using this 'nom de plume' for more than a decade. The reactions to it have certainly varied over that period.
John Galt is a great 20th century figure, but he is no Straight-Tongue, Hawkeye, Deerslayer, Letherstocking. 555.
Natty BumpoI thought John Galt was an early 19th Century Scottish novelist, political and social commentator.
Pictures from yesterday, texts in German, but the pictures are self-explainig:
http://www.wochenblitz.com/nachrichten/47371-wochenblitz-newsticker.html?utm_source=Wochenblitz+Clean+All&utm_campaign=a18f5d23b5-Aktuelle+Nachrichten+aus+Thailand&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_34a48916ce-a18f5d23b5-309115153#contenttxt
I was at Asoke last night. 11 pm, around 10, 000 protesters, whistle blowing, somebody on the stage stirring the crowd up. Tends were built up, people preparing to sleep on the streets.
I thought about a new mongering strategy, offering shelter and a nice soft for the night to some beautiful girls. Dirty old bastard (bestard?) , me :) !!!
Giotto
.
You mention the "land deal".
Did you know. Nobody was ever convicted of wrong doing in this "land deal"- no even Thaksins former wife. No convictions. No charges. Nothing.
Did you know Thaksin was "guilty" as his former wife did this land deal while Thaksin was PM. Nothing to do with Thaksin. Just associated as his wife did it.The Pro,
You better shouldn't write about issues that you haven't fully understood. Dumb talking.
Thaksins wife placed a bid for that land, and it was strangely the highest bit, only slightly higher than the bid of the next bidder. The conviction was NOT about bidding, it was about information flow to the prime minister's office about the existing bids of other bidders.
Correct is that the military/"yellow" colored police tried for some years after the coup to construct cases against Thaksin. But the way he filled his pockets via orders to his firms was very clever. This is why the insider here are talking about the "Perfectionism of Corruption".
Giotto
Member #4698
01-14-14, 02:05
I thought John Galt was an early 19th Century Scottish novelist, political and social commentator.It's true. He Was and Elvis is an English singer-songwriter whose break out album was titled 'My Aim is True"
Beer Monger
01-14-14, 02:25
It's true. He Was and Elvis is an English singer-songwriter whose break out album was titled 'My Aim is True"Was just listening to Armed Forces when I read this post.
I thought John Galt was an early 19th Century Scottish novelist, political and social commentator.You are absolutely correct. However, I think the member took his nom-de-boink from the protagonist in Ayn Rand's Atlas Shrugged.
Parts of it are tough sledding, but overall it's been very prophetic, at least in the USA in the past several years. But overall it does an excellent job of illustrating the pernicious effects of socialism.
During free time outside the bars I can also recommend The Road to Serfdom by Hayek (not Salma) and 1984 by Orwell.
You are absolutely correct. However, I think the member took his nom-de-boink from the protagonist in Ayn Rand's Atlas Shrugged.
Parts of it are tough sledding, but overall it's been very prophetic, at least in the USA in the past several years. But overall it does an excellent job of illustrating the pernicious effects of socialism.
During free time outside the bars I can also recommend The Road to Serfdom by Hayek (not Salma) and 1984 by Orwell.Since this is a board about P4P I hesitated to respond, but just could not help myself. This will be my one and only post on this subject.
Urgh, I find Rand to be a bore and way off base. Great Rah Rah material for high school boys, but really not practical in the real world. We are seeing the effects of that in the US today. Funny thing Rand ended her life on public assistance.
Northern Europe has the highest standards of living in the world, also the happiest people. The US could learn a lot from their systems.
Hayek? Really? The Austrian school is a farce as is specie currency.
Read some Modern Monetary Theory. Warren Mosler is a good place to start. University of Missouri KC is where the think tank is centered. The only thing that really matters is having close to full employment (WWII is the perfect example. Pulled us out of the Great Depression. Would not have mattered if we dropped those tanks in the ocean. What mattered is that people were working, making money, and spending. Demand). Hence we see places that have instituted austerity recovering slower than those that have spent spent spent and created jobs. Nice thing about MMT is that righties like it to, because MMT does not view taxes as a source of revenue, but as a mechanism to control demand and cool off an overheated economy. During times of recession reduce payroll taxes to 0. But But But! Take a look at fiat currency. The only entity that can create and destroy "money" is the gov. Therefore gov debt is really a non-issue. This is a very difficult concept for most folks to get their head around, but it makes sense once you take a close look. When the economy heats up taxes are levied in order to cool things off and to curtail demand. The economy is and is acknowledged to be demand driven.
And MMT theory does not spout taking from those who have to give to those that don't have. Far from it. The pie is infinite, just not in the way the right thinks it to be.
MMT makes a lot of sense when you look at population growth and the effects of automation. There will be far fewer workers needed as we go along. Just a fact folks. So we are faced with a dilemma. What type of society do we want? Star Trek or Blade Runner? Sorry for the entertainment analogy, but I think it gets my point across.
IamJohnGalt
01-14-14, 03:04
You are absolutely correct. However, I think the member took his nom-de-boink from the protagonist in Ayn Rand's Atlas Shrugged.
I can also recommend The Road to Serfdom by Hayek (not Salma) and 1984 by Orwell.So, I did, and your other book recommendations are excellent, albeit hard to locate in hand in Bangkok. Given that, if interested, one can likely find a torrent to the / l on google. There is a Readers Digest condensed version of Road to Serfdom for free download:
http://www.iea.org.uk/sites/default/files/publications/files/upldbook351pdf.pdf
IMO, John Galt and Atlas Shrugged have been co-opted for propaganda purposes by both left and right, and it does take persistence to get through the long novel in order to make a fair judgement of them.
There are a couple of good audio books of Atlas (one full, one abridged) that make good companions on long drives or flights, too.
IamJohnGalt
01-14-14, 03:10
Since this is a board about P4P I hesitated to respond, but just could not help myself. This will be my one and only post on this subject.
MMT makes a lot of sense when you look at population growth and the effects of automation. There will be far fewer workers needed as we go along. Just a fact folks. So we are faced with a dilemma. What type of society do we want? Star Trek or Blade Runner? Sorry for the entertainment analogy, but I think it gets my point across.Sorry, didn't mean to branch this to off topic stuff. You make some interesting points though, and if you want to discuss further send a PM.
Paul Kausch
01-14-14, 07:14
Obviously best not to wear a yellow or red shirt, but now UDD members are being told to wear white shirts to show their opposition to a coup. I guess multi-color shirts are the safest to wear.
Since this is a board about P4P I hesitated to respond, but just could not help myself. This will be my one and only post on this subject.
Urgh, I find Rand to be a bore and way off base. Great Rah Rah material for high school boys, but really not practical in the real world. We are seeing the effects of that in the US today. Funny thing Rand ended her life on public assistance.
Northern Europe has the highest standards of living in the world, also the happiest people. The US could learn a lot from their systems.
Hayek? Really? The Austrian school is a farce as is specie currency.
Read some Modern Monetary Theory. Warren Mosler is a good place to start. University of Missouri KC is where the think tank is centered. The only thing that really matters is having close to full employment (WWII is the perfect example. Pulled us out of the Great Depression. Would not have mattered if we dropped those tanks in the ocean. What mattered is that people were working, making money, and spending. Demand). Hence we see places that have instituted austerity recovering slower than those that have spent spent spent and created jobs. Nice thing about MMT is that righties like it to, because MMT does not view taxes as a source of revenue, but as a mechanism to control demand and cool off an overheated economy. During times of recession reduce payroll taxes to 0. But But But! Take a look at fiat currency. The only entity that can create and destroy "money" is the gov. Therefore gov debt is really a non-issue. This is a very difficult concept for most folks to get their head around, but it makes sense once you take a close look. When the economy heats up taxes are levied in order to cool things off and to curtail demand. The economy is and is acknowledged to be demand driven.
And MMT theory does not spout taking from those who have to give to those that don't have. Far from it. The pie is infinite, just not in the way the right thinks it to be.
MMT makes a lot of sense when you look at population growth and the effects of automation. There will be far fewer workers needed as we go along. Just a fact folks. So we are faced with a dilemma. What type of society do we want? Star Trek or Blade Runner? Sorry for the entertainment analogy, but I think it gets my point across.Mr. Goat, this is one of the few times that I would disagree vehemently with one of your posts. I'll be there in April and we should discuss this over some beers at our mutual watering hole.
Government spending has never "created" a private sector job without destroying another. Unemployment benefits do not create jobs, despite Mr. Obama's claims to the contrary last week. You may have fallen victim to Bastiat's "Broken Window Fallacy."
No cabal of government flunkies and "private sector" fellow travelers can manage something as dynamic as a country's economy, despite MMT theory. This is a consistent thread in Rand's work. We've also witnessed the failed 5-year Soviet plans. And we in the US are still living with the pernicious after-effects of Dick Nixon's foray into Keynesian economics. No, no bureaucrat is qualified to decide whether a multi-trillion dollar economy is "too hot" or "too cold."
As an added bonus, here's a link to Reason. Com showing how WW II did not pull the USA out of the Great Depression.
http://reason.com/archives/2013/01/27/world-war-ii-spending-did-not-end-the-gr
Sorry. I'll bow to public pressure and refrain from non-Thailand-related posts.
Now when you reach the point, as many of us have already, where some gov't agency or another takes 50% - 60% of everything you make, come back and tell us that you don't pay enough taxes.
People are politely suggesting that this tax talk stop because this isn't a place for discussing taxes in the US. This is Bangkok reports. I think the requests are about to stop being polite. Seriously, enough with the tax talk already.
Jackson,
May I suggest a new dedicated thread for discussing current political / protest news in Bangkok and Thailand, as its happening quite frequently and this would allow the dedicated Bangkok thread for example to be monger related only.
Just a thought. Cheers.I think any member can create a new thread, no? That could be a good idea, to have a thread dedicated to the Bangkok protests. That and the tax stuff have pretty much killed off talk about girls here in the last 2 weeks or so.
But at least the protests are about Bangkok, and this thread is supposed to be about Bangkok, so talking about that here doesn't bother me too much. Someone coming to BKK right now obviously needs to know what's really happening there with this, especially when Soi Cowboy is pretty much surrounded by one of the major protest sites. It happens here somteimes that issues other than girl get on a roll. Condoms is one that often comes up, pharmacies, ATM's, etc.
IamJohnGalt
01-15-14, 23:55
Here is an explanation about the Bangkok protest from CNN World.
http://globalpublicsquare.blogs.cnn.com/2014/01/14/whats-behind-thai-protests/
This sounds closer to the truth than usual for CNN, but I'm no expert. Anyone here care to critique and elaborate?
This article's discussion also reminded me of the US in the way that the northeast (NY, DC, et al) and west coast urban minorities seek to control the fly-over majority.
Here is an explanation about the Bangkok protest from CNN World.
http://globalpublicsquare.blogs.cnn.com/2014/01/14/whats-behind-thai-protests/
This sounds closer to the truth than usual for CNN, but I'm no expert. Anyone here care to critique and elaborate?John,
Good piece. The article basically hits the nail on the head.
Giotto
Member #4698
01-16-14, 03:25
Alexis de Tocqueville was a strong believer in the new American Democracy, yet he still warned about the dangers of democracy with its inherit tendency to degenerate into "soft despotism" as well as the risk of developing a tyranny of the majority. This is what the Yellow Shirts are most worried about in Thailand today. What single act ignited the current wave of demonstrations in BKK? It was the amnesty bill and the attempt to bring back Thaksin. The Democrats have not won an election since '92 and they know they probably won't win another one for a long time. So what are they supposed to do? Go away and just submit to this "soft despotism" as they see it or fight it with all they have. I think a long range politically stable solution would be to constitutionally guarantee the Democrats a certain percentage of seats in the Senate and also require a super majority in order to pass any legislation. But what are the odds of that compromise happening anytime soon? I already know what the Pheu Thai Party will say: that's not democratic!
Alexis de Tocqueville was a strong believer in the new American Democracy, yet he still warned about the dangers of democracy with its inherit tendency to degenerate into "soft despotism" as well as the risk of developing a tyranny of the majority. This is what the Yellow Shirts are most worried about in Thailand today. What single act ignited the current wave of demonstrations in BKK? It was the amnesty bill and the attempt to bring back Thaksin. The Democrats have not won an election since '92 and they know they probably won't win another one for a long time. So what are they supposed to do? Go away and just submit to this "soft despotism" as they see it or fight it with all they have. I think a long range politically stable solution would be to constitutionally guarantee the Democrats a certain percentage in the Senate large enough to require a super majority in order to pass legislation. But what are the odds of that compromise happening anytime soon?Umm. When I hear the term "tyranny of the majority" it is normally the "haves" spouting it. They just don't want the poor folks to have a real say as it is a threat to their money and power. There are plenty of folks on both sides that are fed up with the corrupt practices of all concerned. I believe many in the streets feel that way. Sadly, the movement has been hijacked by Suthep and the Dems who are firmly rooted in the system as it is and probably don't want true reform, only power.
The Dems can't win because they don't hit a nerve with people in the N and NE. Can't win without 'them. And they refuse to be put back in the box. So you have to change you stance on some things. Dems think they should be able to win in their current incarnation. That just isn't going to happen. Like a spoiled child in many aspects.
Why should they be guaranteed anything? Then they would have the same BS that we have in the US, with a minority party of the wealthy having the ability to block legislation. That is not the way parliaments work, and thankfully so.
Thaksin is not an admirable human, the Dems are not a good choice. With a parliamentary system as opposed to a republic they actually have a chance to form a real reformist party. I do think that will eventually happen.
Heard a great quote yesterday."When the old are on their way out and the young are taking over, monsters emerge." I am afraid we are seeing that now.
Here is an explanation about the Bangkok protest from CNN World.
http://globalpublicsquare.blogs.cnn.com/2014/01/14/whats-behind-thai-protests/
This sounds closer to the truth than usual for CNN, but I'm no expert. Anyone here care to critique and elaborate?
This article's discussion also reminded me of the US in the way that the northeast (NY, DC, et al) and west coast urban minorities seek to control the fly-over majority.I think it is an accurate assessment of what is going on in Thailand.
This article's discussion also reminded me of the US in the way that the northeast (NY, DC, et al) and west coast urban minorities seek to control the fly-over majority.Actually if you go by popular vote, the US would probably still elect a Dem president. And with TX becoming majority hispanic soon it will be impossible for the Repubs to win without massive redistricting and disqualifying voter, which are the desperate moves they are making now. They are as out of touch with the majority in the US as the Dems are with the majority here. Both will continue to lose ground if they don't become more progressive.
This article's discussion also reminded me of the US in the way that the northeast (NY, DC, et al) and west coast urban minorities seek to control the fly-over majority.Your choice of words makes you sound paranoid that there is an organized effort to purposely suppress the US rural population. Bet you look under the bed every night before retiring for the evening. Goatscrot corrected you just fine so I will leave it at that.
I see since the tax discussions have stopped so there must be a flood of new sex reports to read. I better get busy. Not!
Why should they be guaranteed anything? Then they would have the same BS that we have in the US, with a minority party of the wealthy having the ability to block legislation. That is not the way parliaments work, and thankfully so.
Thaksin is not an admirable human, the Dems are not a good choice. With a parliamentary system as opposed to a republic they actually have a chance to form a real reformist party. I do think that will eventually happen.If you want "the people" to run a country rather than a select few, then set up a secure online voting system, or the equivalent via referundums, whereby people can vote on major legal propositions, or proposed changes in the law or constitution.
For example votes re the recently amnesty propositions.
No need for a separate category. It's dwindling down. It'll probably flare up around Nov 2nd and than disapear.As it is (hopefully) a temporary matter, just like the flood was or the bar closures for election or for some event, makes sense to have a separate thread for these events ("Bangkok disruptures", seems Bangkok is the only town on ISG world to have these kind of problems.) so that the main thread is not polluted by tens of posts that have a limited time value and information that are old and useless in a matter of days.
Will also be easier to RTFF (for those who care) , and those searching for the info will not put a question that has the answer two pages before.
Why from the US tax issues now we entered a debate on US rural representation at the Congress? In a pinch I can understand a bit somebody explaining the differences between the yellow and the red, the protests going on in BKK, but if anybody here is to elaborate similarities or not with other countries, it is going to be endless. There are over 180 nations represented at the UN and they do not cover the entire world. Go imagine if each one will explain the situation about his own country. And WTF is the US a model for these discussions?
Can we get back to track and put an end to this?
Member #4698
01-16-14, 05:33
Why should they be guaranteed anything? With a parliamentary system as opposed to a republic they actually have a chance to form a real reformist party. I do think that will eventually happen.I am not as optimistic as you. A reformist party? I don't know what that is. How do you define reformist and how long does any political party stay true to its original lofty goals? A republic is tediously slow. I grant you that. Nothing ever seems to get done because to do anything requires a large consensus not a simple majority, but only with certain guarantees will the minority stay in the game as the loyal opposition. Without checks on the majority rule there is the risk of the minority going underground and resorting to acts of terrorism. Of course a Leader can arise out of the majority party and impose dictatorship on the minority. That was the fear about Thaksin. And dictatorship works, for a while, anyway.
So which way does Thailand go? I don't know. I am not even sure if February 2 elections will take place and the votes allowed.
I am not as optimistic as you. A reformist party? I don't know what that is. How do you define reformist and how long does any political party stay true to its original lofty goals? A republic is tediously slow. I grant you that. Nothing ever seems to get done, but with certain guarantees the minority will stay in the game as the loyal opposition. Without checks on the majority rule there is the risk of the minority going underground and resorting to acts of terrorism. Of course a Leader can arise out of the majority party and impose dictatorship on the minority. That works for a while too.
So which way does Thailand go? I don't know.Tough to say. A parliament methinks gives more of a guarantee to minority and less monied interests as more often than naught major parties have to form coalitions. And of course when the gov is deadlocked an election is called which is essentially a referendum on the issue that deadlocked them. Republics rarely have more than two parties, and in most cases (as is with the US) , there is not a lot of difference between the two. Republics support the needs of the wealthy.
Unfortunately in the case of Thailand, corruption runs throughout the system and no one seems wanting or willing to make wholesale changes.
Why from the US tax issues now we entered a debate on US rural representation at the Congress? In a pinch I can understand a bit somebody explaining the differences between the yellow and the red, the protests going on in BKK, but if anybody here is to elaborate similarities or not with other countries, it is going to be endless. There are over 180 nations represented at the UN and they do not cover the entire world. Go imagine if each one will explain the situation about his own country. And WTF is the US a model for these discussions?
Can we get back to track and put an end to this?Actually with the current situation in BKK there is a bit of a lull in the P4P scene. About 30 people total in Thermae at 11 last night and several gogos in Cowboy closed before 10pm.
And I don't think the US is a model for much of anything these days, except for fair play in sports and great music!
IamJohnGalt
01-16-14, 06:59
Actually if you go by popular vote, the US would probably still elect a Dem president. And with TX becoming majority hispanic soon it will be impossible for the Repubs to win without massive redistricting and disqualifying voter, which are the desperate moves they are making now. They are as out of touch with the majority in the US as the Dems are with the majority here. Both will continue to lose ground if they don't become more progressive.Sorry if my comments appeared to support one US party over the other. IMO, both parties represent the urban minority, and both pretend that they don't. Both are out of touch with the majority. Yes, there is an organized effort to suppress the will of the people in the US, using legislative rule-making, legislation, control of the US Supreme Court, propaganda and media distractions to prevent reform that could change the power structure.
Sorry if my comments appeared to support one US party over the other. IMO, both parties represent the urban minority, and both pretend that they don't. Both are out of touch with the majority. Yes, there is an organized effort to suppress the will of the people in the US, using legislative rule-making, legislation, control of the US Supreme Court, propaganda and media distractions to prevent reform that could change the power structure.Sadly just like in Thailand the majority are quite uninformed and in the US it is worse, many are Fundy Christians. One of the best things about living over here is being away from those crackpots.
Paul Kausch
01-22-14, 01:36
I just read a series of articles about the emergency decree. Here's what I've pieced together.
As I understand it, it was declared by the caretaker government, well technically a body it created. It gives the caretaker government broad power to impose curfews, close down news outlets, detain people they don't like, etc. The business community is furious, thinks it was unnecessary, will severely harm local business and significantly impact tourism. It is the government not the opposition the business community appears to be upset with. The opposition says it could give a damn about the emergency decree. Some admiral says the violence is being caused by the Thaksin supporters; the Bangkok police are supporting the perpetrators if not actively, through inaction; and if the government orders the military to intervene the military will not carry out the order, as given, if it thinks it is uncalled for. Does this mean the military may take actions not against the opposition but against those whom they think are causing the problem? Hmmm.
On a related topic, I'm also reading it's not clear when the rice farmers will get paid, how much they'll get paid and whether it will be soon enough. They are getting very angry and are turning on the Thaksin regime. The EC is warning Yingluck that the way the caretaker government is going about raising the money to pay the farmers is illegal and will have serious ramifications after a new government is formed, the action are investigated and indictments are handed down. Yingluck is already under investigation for why she allegedly looked the other way while her ministers allegedly stole money through the rice scheme. All this may be political, but she could end up being barred from holding office; and the opposition has stated one of its goals is to drive the entire Shinawatra family out of Thailand. Boy oh boy!
Most of this comes from the Bangkok Post. I get the sense it's tries to look balanced but is more sympathetic to the opposition.
These are interesting times. I have much sympathy for the people living through this whose lives are being affected.
I just read a series of articles about the emergency decree. Here's what I've pieced together.
As I understand it, it was declared by the caretaker government, well technically a body it created. It gives the caretaker government broad power to impose curfews, close down news outlets, detain people they don't like, etc. The business community is furious, thinks it was unnecessary, will severely harm local business and significantly impact tourism. It is the government not the opposition the business community appears to be upset with. The opposition says it could give a damn about the emergency decree. Some admiral says the violence is being caused by the Thaksin supporters; the Bangkok police are supporting the perpetrators if not actively, through inaction; and if the government orders the military to intervene the military will not carry out the order, as given, if it thinks it is uncalled for. Does this mean the military may take actions not against the opposition but against those whom they think are causing the problem? Hmmm.
On a related topic, I'm also reading it's not clear when the rice farmers will get paid, how much they'll get paid and whether it will be soon enough. They are getting very angry and are turning on the Thaksin regime. The EC is warning Yingluck that the way the caretaker government is going about raising the money to pay the farmers is illegal and will have serious ramifications after a new government is formed, the action are investigated and indictments are handed down. Yingluck is already under investigation for why she allegedly looked the other way while her ministers allegedly stole money through the rice scheme. All this may be political, but she could end up being barred from holding office; and the opposition has stated one of its goals is to drive the entire Shinawatra family out of Thailand. Boy oh boy!
Most of this comes from the Bangkok Post. I get the sense it's tries to look balanced but is more sympathetic to the opposition.
These are interesting times. I have much sympathy for the people living through this whose lives are being affected.Old Chinese curse."May you live in interesting times."
GoodEnough
01-22-14, 04:43
Sorry if my comments appeared to support one US party over the other. IMO, both parties represent the urban minority, and both pretend that they don't. Both are out of touch with the majority. Yes, there is an organized effort to suppress the will of the people in the US, using legislative rule-making, legislation, control of the US Supreme Court, propaganda and media distractions to prevent reform that could change the power structure.I'm fairly sure that the "urban minority" is, in fact, a majority. The problem for me in the US now is not rural vs. Urban, or even rich vs. Poor; it's the disappearance of any pragmatic middle ground based on honest concerns for the progress and welfare of the country as a whole. There's zero willingness to compromise and a commitment to narrow, poorly articulated ideologies that's virtually obliterated any moderate thinking on either side of the aisle. Of course the fact that representatives are owned by corporate and other special interests and pander shamelessly to them doesn't help either.
GE
IamJohnGalt
01-22-14, 04:51
the fact that representatives are owned by corporate and other special interests and pander shamelessly to them doesn't help either.
GEThis hits the nail on its head.
Ralph Kramden
01-22-14, 12:55
Any predictions about the political situation and safety of BKK in mid March. If things get rough in February do you think airlines will lower their fares?
Traveler1234
01-22-14, 13:54
Any predictions about the political situation and safety of BKK in mid March. If things get rough in February do you think airlines will lower their fares?Our office got business class from NYC to BKK via Dubai on Emirate Air for $5, 500, including car service. Normal fare is closer to 10k. My boss leaving Friday and I'll be flying over for short biz visit in early March.
Member #4698
01-22-14, 14:56
I don't know where to put this. In the Politics thread or the BKK General thread? Ok here it is in the Politics Forum.
Today's headline: A pro-government Red Shirt leader was shot Wednesday in northeastern Thailand. At least two assailants opened fire at the home of Kwanchai Praipana, a prominent leader of the Red Shirts, a mostly grass-root support group that helped Ms. Yingluck get elected in 2011. Mr. Kwanchai was shot in the shoulder and thigh, police said.
This escalation on top of yesterday's declaration of a state of emergency is beginning to make me wonder where the situation will be by mid-March when I am due to arrive.
'It is increasingly uncertain whether the vote will go ahead, too. Thailand's Election Commission on Wednesday asked the country's Constitutional Court to rule on whether it or the government can postpone the election until a later date. ' I think a vote may take place, but it will not be recognized as legitimate.
'Suthep and the opposition Democrat Party are opposing the ballot, insisting that a reform program should be pursued first. ' This "reform program" will require a military intervention to be installed, there is no way Yingluck will resign voluntarily so that an interim caretaker government consisting of mostly moderate yellow shirts can take over. Anybody feeling the Déjŕ vu?
My concern is the time frame under which all this plays out and how bad the situation has to get before the military either feels compelled to intervene or decides they can't intervene. So at this stage, nobody knows who is going to end up on top when this is all over. I am going to be in Phnom Penh the week before my scheduled arrival in BKK in mid-March. As I see it, I have three main options.
The 1st option is to keep to the original plan, fly into BKK, and spend 3 amazing weeks here. This is what I would really like to do, but it all depends on what's going on in BKK in mid-March and at this point, like I said above, nobody knows the answer to that question. I will go ahead and fly into BKK if the situation is basically the same as it has been this last week before the State of Emergency announcement.
The 2nd option which is a little less desirable from my point of view is to travel overland to Pattaya if the airport is closed or things escalate in BKK. Based on past political confrontations, Pat has always remained open and free wheeling. My only concern would be getting out of LOS in case the Airport is closed while I am partying it up in Pat. Overland would probably be my only option. If Swampy is closed prior to my arrival and stays shut, I will not visit Thailand this year.
Which leads me to the 3rd option or the nuclear option I. E. To forget LOS this time around and put into effect a backup plan? My backup plan will be to fly from Phom Penh to KL, party in KL for a few days and then fly to either MNL or Cebu City. I am planning to travel to the PI anyway after my Thai visit, so the nuclear option will extend my PI trip by 3 additional weeks and will give me plenty of time to take my favorite Pinay to Palawan or to take her on a road trip up to the beaches in Northern Luzon.
My tip to everyone who has planned a trip to LOS in February to March is stay tuned into the news and begin to think about a backup plan just in case.
Paul Kausch
01-22-14, 18:54
I don't know where to put this. In the Politics thread or the BKK General thread? Ok here it is in the Politics Forum.
My tip to everyone who has planned a trip to LOS in February to March is stay tuned into the news and begin to think about a backup plan just in case.As I mention in my earlier post on this thread, I'm reading the Bangkok Post. The coverage in the western media is terrible. I get travel bulletins from the US State Department. They are advising USA citizens to avoid Bangkok until February 14. Interesting that they sent out the notification I received the day before the government announced the Emergency Decree. Natty, I recommend you go to the US State Dept website, enroll in the STEP program and request travel updates for Thailand. I've found these recommendations to be very reliable. For example, until this last email they recommended caution, but did not recommend people change their travel plans. Now they are say to avoid Thailand until after February 14.
Wolvenvacht
01-22-14, 20:24
Any predictions about the political situation and safety of BKK in mid March. If things get rough in February do you think airlines will lower their fares?Even in "normal" times, airfares may change daily depending on supply and demand. Nobody can predict what will happen when things get rough and there is no demand for airtickets anymore. It is very likely one can then pick up some cheap "last minute" tickets. On the other hand, when the situation stabilizes, the cheap seats will have been gone already and you will have to pay a premium price for your ticket.
Any predictions about the political situation and safety of BKK in mid March. If things get rough in February do you think airlines will lower their fares?The last time during the quake in Japan the airlines lowered capacity drastically and airfares skyrocketed. Airlines are already lowering capacity mostly from Hong Kong and Singapore.
Paul Kausch
01-23-14, 06:45
One day I get an email from the US State Department recommend US citizens cancel their plans to visit Thailand until after February 14th. The next day Thailand issues an Emergency Decree. Then the next day a spokesperson for the government declares the Emergency Decree will be good for tourism because visitors will feel safer coming to Thailand.
One day I read there is an assassination attempt on a red-shirt leader in Isan. The next day I read the police have identified a red-shirt political activist as the perpetrator of the grenade attacks on the demonstrators.
On a happier note, a recent survey shows that 4 out of 5 Thai economists believe without economic reform, particularly the suppression of corruption and fair and transparent competition the country is headed for serious problems. Within ten years the consequences could be prolonged recession, chronic high unemployment and escalating public debt leading to bankruptcy.
One day I get an email from the US State Department recommend US citizens cancel their plans to visit Thailand until after February 14th. The next day Thailand issues an Emergency Decree. Then the next day a spokesperson for the government declares the Emergency Decree will be good for tourism because visitors will feel safer coming to Thailand.
One day I read there is an assassination attempt on a red-shirt leader in Isan. The next day I read the police have identified a red-shirt political activist as the perpetrator of the grenade attacks on the demonstrators.
On a happier note, a recent survey shows that 4 out of 5 Thai economists believe without economic reform, particularly the suppression of corruption and fair and transparent competition the country is headed for serious problems. Within ten years the consequences could be prolonged recession, chronic high unemployment and escalating public debt leading to bankruptcy.Comedy the 1st paragraph and tragedy the last paragraph. Its the last paragraph that needs to be taken very seriously. Election reform is needed to have fair elections. Economic reform is needed to stop the borrowing to spend money on useless projects that line the pockets of some but no benefit to the nation. Wiping out corruption is impossible, but reining it in a bit, is desperately needed.
I am stating the trivially simple, but tourists may not be aware of the immense difficultly of even holding a fair election.
My GF has never voted in an election but says that somehow her name is shown as voting and also a percentage of other fictitious / absent persons too. Village heads mysteriously receive big money to hand out to the villagers in return for their support in elections. The city folks have no confidence that villagers have the brains to know any better than just take the handouts and do as they are told. Is a fair election possible in Thailand with most village heads corrupt? Fake identification documents are rife in Thailand too.
The city folks want to know (not me) , why should villagers get a vote? They don't have any brains, follow the corrupt village leaders, and don't pay much in taxes. Little care for the future of the nation.
Corruption is so endemic. What can be done to discourage it? Starts with education of the young. Old people cannot be changed only punished. The police and law system is also totally corrupt so improvement probably needs to start from politicians, judges, and the police, and high government officials. The rest comes later I guess.
Paul Kausch
01-23-14, 08:12
Comedy the 1st paragraph and tragedy the last paragraph. Its the last paragraph that needs to be taken very seriously. Election reform is needed to have fair elections. Economic reform is needed to stop the borrowing to spend money on useless projects that line the pockets of some but no benefit to the nation. Wiping out corruption is impossible, but reining it in a bit, is desperately needed.
Corruption is so endemic. What can be done to discourage it? Starts with education of the young. Old people cannot be changed only punished. The police and law system is also totally corrupt so improvement probably needs to start from politicians, judges, and the police, and high government officials. The rest comes later I guess.I get the sense there are educated, middle class Thais, a few of whom I've corresponded with, who believe the only hope is if an unelected council of wise, honest people can be assembled to govern and plan Thailand's future. Unfortunately, I don't think the Bangkok Elite are envisioning the assembly of that kind of a council.
I live in a country that represents itself as the political model for the world. Most USA voters are poorly informed. Our public education system is terrible. Many of the charter schools and the fundamentalist parochial schools are worse. The voters agree on two things, that congress is abysmal and that their districts representative is one of the few exceptions. An objective observer with half a brain would conclude that the correct term for USA campaign financing is bribery. An honest political system would not allow it and would prosecute politicians who conducted themselves as USA politicians do.
I hope it is obvious I was being factitious the way I opened the last paragraph of my previous post. I could have added that the economists think that regardless, the government's recent fiscal plan is unsustainable and among other things eventually infrastructure development will grind to a halt and existing infrastructure will no longer be maintained.
Some mongers might think all of this is good. The baht will fall; my currency will stretch farther; more young ladies will be forced into the sex industry. Unfortunately, unrest and violence is also possible. Many Thais have tasted economic development and seeing it vanish will prompt an angry backlash. It's dangerous to raise people's expectations and then disappoint them.
Ironically earlier today I read Bill and Melinda Gates have authored a paper in which they argue poverty will virtually disappear from the planet by the middle of the 21st Century and every nation in the world will be "lower middle class" or wealthier. I guess they have some special insight into the future of North Korea.
Member #4698
01-23-14, 13:55
I think this is a pretty good summary of a few possible scenarios. As the report states, nobody knows how this will turn out.
Thai Protest Leader Defies State of Emergency.
Several Scenarios in Play as Country's Political Tensions Continue to Swirl.
WSJ 1/23/20104.
"There are several scenarios suggesting where Thailand might be headed next.
One is that the military will stage a coup to remove Ms. Yingluck, just as it removed Mr. Thaksin. Army commander-in-chief Gen. Prayuth Chan-ocha has made clear he doesn't want to do this. The Thai military's reputation was badly bruised overseas after the 2006 coup. Gen. Prayuth and his top commanders also sense that a coup would do little to resolve Thailand's problems in the long term and that, one way or another, its people will have to figure out the way forward.
That said, Paul Chambers, a professor and military analyst at Chiang Mai University, notes that Gen. Prayuth is becoming gradually more hostile toward Ms. Yingluck's government and the "Red Shirt" faction that supports it; the army isn't likely to play much of a role in enforcing the emergency powers Ms. Yingluck invoked this week.
On Wednesday, Gen. Prayuth again warned that if the level of political violence in the country rises to an uncontrollable level, then the military would have to step in. And the longer the impasse drags on, the more the pressure will build on Gen. Prayuth to make his move. Pavin Chachavalpongpun at the Center for Southeast Asian Studies at Kyoto University anticipates protesters will up the ante if they can to force the military's hand.
Another possibility is that national elections will take place on Feb. 2 as planned. Ms. Yingluck called an early election to help disperse some of the tension in the country, but opposition protesters led by Mr. Suthep are aiming to derail the vote.
Already, they have blocked the registration of candidates in many areas, meaning that winning candidates can be returned in only 94% of electoral districts—fewer than the 95% required to form a new parliament. This means the Election Commission won't be able to ensure the end of the election and set another vote, either nationally or in selected areas.
The most likely outcome in the eyes of many analysts is some kind of judicial intervention, either before or after the election. Thailand's Election Commission on Wednesday asked the Constitutional Court to rule on whether the Feb. 2 vote can be postponed. That might provide the opposition Democrat Party time to organize and contest a vote a few months from now after boycotting the vote, but the delay could extend the political tension in the country and increase the risk of tit-for-tat violence reaching a level that would compel the army to intervene.
Thailand's National Anti-Corruption Commission and Constitutional Court could also play a direct role in removing Ms. Yingluck and her ministers, who are under investigation for alleged corruption relating to a multibillion-dollar rice subsidy. If she is removed, and she denies any wrongdoing, that could allow a royally appointed interim government to be named.
Which of these scenarios comes closest to reflect what actually plays out is anyone's guess, however. But many Thailand-watchers—including some of the main protest leaders—view a failed election as the most probable outcome. And that means that Thailand's crisis could drag on for months yet, further pressuring its already weakened economy."
On a personal note, I spoke to my favorite Go Go girl yesterday. She says she can't go to work. Uhm. I don't know what to think about that. Plenty of other girls are making their way to Soi Cowboy and reporting for duty. In any case she says she misses me and is looking forward to seeing me. It was great to hear her sweet voice and Thai accent. I just hope things in BKK can either remain as they are now with little or no escalation (unlikely IMHO) or are resolved. I want so bad to return to LOS, but as I was saying to Paul, if a curfew is in force or the demonstrators close or surround the airport, I will bail. I have the PI as my back up plan just in case.
I think this is a pretty good summary of a few possible scenarios. As the report states, nobody knows how this will turn out.
Thai Protest Leader Defies State of Emergency.
Several Scenarios in Play as Country's Political Tensions Continue to Swirl.
WSJ 1/23/20104.
"There are several scenarios suggesting where Thailand might be headed next.
One is that the military will stage a coup to remove Ms. Yingluck, just as it removed Mr. Thaksin. Army commander-in-chief Gen. Prayuth Chan-ocha has made clear he doesn't want to do this. The Thai military's reputation was badly bruised overseas after the 2006 coup. Gen. Prayuth and his top commanders also sense that a coup would do little to resolve Thailand's problems in the long term and that, one way or another, its people will have to figure out the way forward...I'm here, staying at Doubletree on sukhumvit 26, walked through soi cowboy and protest at Asoke last night. I'd characterize it as business as usuall with a few barricades made of tires thrown up and a lot of "Shutdown Bangkok" t'shirts for sale.
RCA Knight
01-23-14, 15:48
This dog fight will drag on many years to come. On the elite level, it is more and more obvious that the whole monarchy net work is trying to avoid Vajiralongkorn from taking the throne, and they are willing to do the extremes to achieve it. Suthep is just a thug for hire to set up the stage, and all these institutions such as military, all types of courts, election commission, are playing a part in the whole grand scheme. Thaksin is the little scapegoat, because of his ties to hated Vajiralongkorn, Thaksin's goal is to put him on the throne when the time comes. The whole monarchy net work is fearful of that happens, it means the end of the huge umbrella, that is why they want to be in power in government when the transition comes in the very near future. So they will be the king maker to put Sirindorn on the throne or as a regent.
Andrew Marshall of ex-Reuter who can not enter Thailand for his open and true reporting which violated Thai's feudal shield "lese majeste", has a great essay on the struggle for succession called Thailand's Era of Insanity.
http://www.academia.edu/4962508/_-_Thailands_Era_of_Insanity
see: http://www.stickmanbangkok.com/bangkok-protests-2013/bangkok-protests-2013-18.htm
interestingly, the second to the last photo of the article is quite disturbing. stickman states,"one guard was peering through a mini telescope scanning the rooftops of surrounding buildings, looking for bad guys." well that "mini telescope" is a riflescope. what that indicates is that the "guards" are getting more prepared for serious action that may result in swift and violent retaliation.
to a rational person, the quiet time now looks like the prelude to violent options being exercised by both sides. much like the "phony war" that preceded the german blitzkrieg that shocked french and british troops that resulted in the dunkirk evacuation.
stickman's observations of the "security guards" that appear to be young men with some paramilitary training or experience are also of concern. the escalation of these "guards" in searching bags and individuals is a precursor of a full fledged security program anticipated by the anti-government movement. an outbreak of civil war will only result in a military coup to put the country on a stable course.
see:
http://www.stickmanbangkok.com/bangkok-protests-2013/bangkok-protests-2013-18.htm
interestingly, the second to the last photo of the article is quite disturbing. stickman states,"one guard was peering through a mini telescope scanning the rooftops of surrounding buildings, looking for bad guys." well that "mini telescope" is a riflescope. what that indicates is that the "guards" are getting more prepared for serious action that may result in swift and violent retaliation.
snip.your overall arguments may be totally correct, but i doubt very much, that the guard is using a riflescope.
as far as i can judge, he is holding scope close to his eye.
if i am right, then it is not a riflescope, because in that position, he would see nothing through it.
riflescopes are quite clever optical devices, designed to be used about 10 cm from the eye.
at a shorter distance you won't see anything. that is by intention, in order to protect the shooter from the recoil and rebound.
i once saw a stupid newbie guy pulling the trigger, while holding the rifle close to his eye, even though he could not possibly see a thing through the scope.
he ended up in hospital with a shattered eye socket and is blind on that one eye ever since.
you can of course use a riflescope in lieu of an ordinary telescope, as long as you hold it away from you eye.
Your overall arguments may be totally correct, but I doubt very much, that the guard is using a RIFLEscope.
As far as I can judge, he is holding scope close to his eye.
IF I am right, then it is NOT a RIFLEscope, because in that position, he would see nothing through it.
Riflescopes are quite clever optical devices, designed to be used about 10 cm from the eye.
At a shorter distance you won't see anything. That is by intention, in order to protect the shooter from the recoil and rebound.
I once saw a stupid newbie guy pulling the trigger, while holding the rifle close to his eye, even though he could not possibly see a thing through the scope.
He ended up in hospital with a shattered eye socket and is blind on that one eye ever since.
You can of course use a riflescope in lieu of an ordinary telescope, as long as you hold it away from you eye.Take a good look at the photo. The man is holding the riflescope properly for eye relief of about 3 to 4 inches because he appears to be holding it in front of the bill of his baseball cap. He is taking great pains to keep the scope steady with two hands to assure there is no blurring at higher magnifications. This guy knows what he is doing with the riflescope, meaning he is no novice using it in place of a binocular. Additionally, Stickman shot this photo with a long telephoto lens, which often creates a compression appearance that may give the appearance that the rifle scope is closer to his face than it really is. As a professional photographer and long range shooter, I think I know what I am talking about.
Take a good look at the photo. The man is holding the riflescope properly for eye relief of about 3 to 4 inches because he appears to be holding it in front of the bill of his baseball cap. He is taking great pains to keep the scope steady with two hands to assure there is no blurring at higher magnifications. This guy knows what he is doing with the riflescope, meaning he is no novice using it in place of a binocular. Additionally, Stickman shot this photo with a long telephoto lens, which often creates a compression appearance that may give the appearance that the rifle scope is closer to his face than it really is. As a professional photographer and long range shooter, I think I know what I am talking about.But there is no rifle, so all this nice and correct theory is useless. Whatever the guys is handling, properly or not, will not harm him.
But there is no rifle, so all this nice and correct theory is useless. Whatever the guys is handling, properly or not, will not harm him.Just because there is no rifle attached to the scope doesn't mean that this sniper / counter sniper is not preparing his killing field. To operate openly with just a scope is great because it does not alarm the public, nor tip off the potential opposition to their presence. However, if you read Stickman's story, the "guards" went to great lengths to have the photos of the man with the scope deleted. Even though the face of the sniper can't be seen easily, this guy is now on the radar of his potential opposition and they will scour the photo to be able to identify the sniper or, maybe, even go to find Stickman to get the rest of the photos of him. Just remember this, in war, especially a civil war, there are no real "rules", anything goes.
Paul Kausch
01-25-14, 02:01
Today, in an article in Bloomberg Business Week titled "Time Is Running Out for Thailand's Embattled Government" Bruce Einhorn writes:
Regardless of whether the election takes place in February or later, chances are Yingluck's days as prime minister are numbered. "The current political deadlock should eventually lead to the fall of this government," Pimpaka Nichgaroon, head of research in Bangkok for Thanachart Securities, wrote in a report published Wednesday. While the crisis may drag on for a few more weeks, Pimpaka expects a resolution by the end of March. "We assign the highest probability to military intervention followed by court cases in bringing down the government and a slim chance of the caretaker administration returning as a functional government in the next election."
Th articles goes on to talk about the Shinawatra's losing support in the north and northeast, growing problems with the rice scheme and corruption investigations of Yingluck and hundreds of her MPs, all of whom may end up being barred from holding office.
I'm trying to get my hands on the complete report.
ConquerorVal
01-25-14, 02:40
Andrew Marshall of ex-Reuter who can not enter Thailand for his open and true reporting which violated Thai's feudal shield "lese majeste", has a great essay on the struggle for succession called Thailand's Era of Insanity.
http://www.academia.edu/4962508/_-_Thailands_Era_of_InsanityReally long but very informative and well written essay. Thanks for the link. I am much better informed now.
Today, in an article in Bloomberg Business Week titled "Time Is Running Out for Thailand's Embattled Government" Bruce Einhorn writes:
Regardless of whether the election takes place in February or later, chances are Yingluck's days as prime minister are numbered."The current political deadlock should eventually lead to the fall of this government," Pimpaka Nichgaroon, head of research in Bangkok for Thanachart Securities, wrote in a report published Wednesday. While the crisis may drag on for a few more weeks, Pimpaka expects a resolution by the end of March."We assign the highest probability to military intervention followed by court cases in bringing down the government and a slim chance of the caretaker administration returning as a functional government in the next election."
Th articles goes on to talk about the Shinawatra's losing support in the north and northeast, growing problems with the rice scheme and corruption investigations of Yingluck and hundreds of her MPs, all of whom may end up being barred from holding office.
I'm trying to get my hands on the complete report.Article is at: http://www.businessweek.com/articles/2014-01-24/time-is-running-out-for-thailands-embattled-government
Paul Kausch
01-25-14, 06:33
Article is at:
http://www.businessweek.com/articles/2014-01-24/time-is-running-out-for-thailands-embattled-governmentThank you. This is the link to the article I read. What I'm trying to find is Pimpaka Nichgaroon's report. Probably have to contact firm. Couldn't find link to report on company website. May have to pay for it. If so, I probably won't bother.
GoodEnough
01-25-14, 07:33
This dog fight will drag on many years to come. On the elite level, it is more and more obvious that the whole monarchy net work is trying to avoid Vajiralongkorn from taking the throne, and they are willing to do the extremes to achieve it. Suthep is just a thug for hire to set up the stage, and all these institutions such as military, all types of courts, election commission, are playing a part in the whole grand scheme. Thaksin is the little scapegoat, because of his ties to hated Vajiralongkorn, Thaksin's goal is to put him on the throne when the time comes. The whole monarchy net work is fearful of that happens, it means the end of the huge umbrella, that is why they want to be in power in government when the transition comes in the very near future. So they will be the king maker to put Sirindorn on the throne or as a regent.
Andrew Marshall of ex-Reuter who can not enter Thailand for his open and true reporting which violated Thai's feudal shield "lese majeste", has a great essay on the struggle for succession called Thailand's Era of Insanity.
http://www.academia.edu/4962508/_-_Thailands_Era_of_InsanityThanks very much for posting the link. The article is long and somewhat convoluted, but well worth reading. It presents an excellent explanations of the complex strands that have coalesced to foment the current crisis.
GE
Thank you. This is the link to the article I read. What I'm trying to find is Pimpaka Nichgaroon's report. Probably have to contact firm. Couldn't find link to report on company website. May have to pay for it. If so, I probably won't bother.This is another recent story on the Thai rice situation by CNBC: http://www.cnbc.com/id/101360692
It also quotes Pimpaka Nichgaroon, but no link to any reports by her and none found on searching Google.
This is another recent story on the Thai rice situation by CNBC:
http://www.cnbc.com/id/101360692
I searched google for that name Pimpaka Nichgaroon (Thanachart Securities) and plenty of hits, maybe not including the particular report you look for.
Paul Kausch
01-25-14, 15:26
I searched google for that name Pimpaka Nichgaroon (Thanachart Securities) and plenty of hits, maybe not including the particular report you look for.Thanks for the suggestion. Already did a Google search on the name. Didn't find anything about the report I'm interested in. Also took a quick look at the corporate website. I suspect this is one of those reports you have to purchase. No problem, not a high priority, I'm going to do it the easy way and just send an email to the firm.
Member #4698
01-25-14, 22:47
Thai Court Rules Feb. 2 Elections Vote Can Be Delayed.
BANGKOK—Thailand's Constitutional Court ruled on Friday that contentious elections set for February 2 can be postponed, adding further pressure on Prime Minister Yingluck Shinawatra's government to delay the vote, as antigovernment protests continue.
The government's original plan to hold an election Feb. 2 had appeared to be foundering. So far. 28 electoral districts in the south of the country have failed to register candidates after antigovernment protesters blockaded candidate-registration centers. That means the election wouldn't fill the 95% of the 500-seat parliament required by law to reopen the legislature, the Election Commission has said. Ms. Yingluck dissolved the lower house of parliament in December due to the protests.
The Election Commission earlier suggested May 4 as an alternative election date.
Paul Kausch
01-25-14, 23:51
thai court rules feb. 2 elections vote can be delayed.
bangkok—thailand's constitutional court ruled on friday that contentious elections set for february 2 can be postponed, adding further pressure on prime minister yingluck shinawatra's government to delay the vote, as antigovernment protests continue.
the government's original plan to hold an election feb. 2 had appeared to be foundering. so far. 28 electoral districts in the south of the country have failed to register candidates after antigovernment protesters blockaded candidate-registration centers. that means the election wouldn't fill the 95% of the 500-seat parliament required by law to reopen the legislature, the election commission has said. ms. yingluck dissolved the lower house of parliament in december due to the protests.
the election commission earlier suggested may 4 as an alternative election date.what do you think the odds are the current situation will drag on another three and one-half months? something is going to happen between now and then.
what about this: the election is postponed; the opposition is emboldened by what they see as a victory; the government strikes back by ordering the police to vigorously enforce the emergency decree; they storm a rally and try to arrest suthep and some of the other leaders; the protest site security is expecting this (this is true) ; violence erupts; the military steps in; the militant red shirts strike back and civil war breaks out. the finance guy i mention in my previous post thinks a military takeover this spring is the likely near term outcome. a militant group of red shirts who claims to be beyond the control of the party (ya right, and i also believe in the easter bunny) has said if the army deposes the government it will fight the army to reinstate their party. or will the two sides push things to the edge of the precipice, peer over, think twice and work out a compromise? as i said, i don't believe in the easter bunny.
oh, and the rice farmers are blocking roads out in the hinterland because they're furious. payments due under the rice scheme are delinquent because there is no money, but who knows because the government says it cannot divulge financial details about the rice program :rolleyes: ; and the government in spite of being warned by the courts that a bond sale to raise part of the money to pay the farmers is unconstitutional is proceeding with the sale. but guess what! word on the street is they're having difficulty selling the bonds.
but what do i know?
interesting times.
Member #4698
01-26-14, 01:07
What do you think the odds are the current situation will drag on another three and one-half months? Something is going to happen between now and then. But what do I know?Well we are all just speculating. Anything can happen. I think Yingluck is almost certainly out. I can't see her holding on to power, but I don't think she is going to step down and hand the keys of the country over to the Yellow Shirts. So the odds are the demonstrations will continue until things boil over and the Army takes over and installs an interim caretaker government. I have no idea when that will take place. That is the problem as far as I am concerned: how bad things get before the Army intervenes and how long before they intervene.
I just don't see a civil war. I hope not anyway. That would be insane, but crazier things have happened like World War I. All those kings, dukes and czars were related, they were all filthy rich and powerful and yet they allowed their respective countries to go to war against each other. After 4 years of the most savage warfare mankind had ever seen, all of them were gone, swept from power. So who knows?
That is why I think the odds are the Army will take over sooner or later and install a caretaker government and the Reds will accept it. The new government will lean towards the Yellows, but the new Prime Minister will announce new elections to mollify the Reds and a year or two later the Reds will win the election again and it is deja vu all over again, except maybe Thaksin and his family are gone from the stage forever. I don't know, but I think that is the most likely scenario. I just can't see civil war. I will bet you 32 baht on that.
Paul Kausch
01-26-14, 01:51
Well we are all just speculating. Anything can happen.
That is why I think the odds are the Army will take over sooner or later and install a caretaker government and the Reds will accept it. The new government will lean towards the Yellows, but the new Prime Minister will announce new elections to mollify the Reds and a year or two later the Reds will win the election again and it is deja vu all over again, except maybe Thaksin and his family are gone from the stage forever. I don't know, but I think that is the most likely scenario. I just can't see civil war. I will bet you 32 baht on that.Yep, I can see that happening. And I do see the Shinawatra clan's days as numbered. As for the Bangkok elite running the country again, never, the genie is out of the bottle. Of course, that which cannot be publicly discussed is another story line in this play.
Having said that, I'll bet you 32 baht Thaksin comes back in triumph, an arch is erected in his honor and he becomes the world's first dollar trillionaire. Of course, as I believe I am certain to lose this bet, we will have to hook up in Bangkok when all this stuff sorts out to settle. ;)
I'm thinking about taking a trip to Bangkok, but the press here in the US makes it seem like the city is a war zone. What's happening on the ground? Can you monger freely around town safely? Is there a curfew?
Thai Court Rules Feb. 2 Elections Vote Can Be Delayed.
BANGKOK—Thailand's Constitutional Court ruled on Friday that contentious elections set for February 2 can be postponed, adding further pressure on Prime Minister Yingluck Shinawatra's government to delay the vote, as antigovernment protests continue.
The government's original plan to hold an election Feb. 2 had appeared to be foundering. So far. 28 electoral districts in the south of the country have failed to register candidates after antigovernment protesters blockaded candidate-registration centers. That means the election wouldn't fill the 95% of the 500-seat parliament required by law to reopen the legislature, the Election Commission has said. Ms. Yingluck dissolved the lower house of parliament in December due to the protests.
The Election Commission earlier suggested May 4 as an alternative election date.But that is the "Yellow Spin" version.
Actually the CC only advised that an election could be delayed in the event of a national disaster or situation, like for example a natural disaster (earthquake etc.).
That was the only ruling, it "could be" but only in "certain circumstances" and then they failed to state what all the circumstances are.
Which means for PTP and Yingluck if they delay the election then a petition will be filed with the CC and the CC would then rule that the reason given by PTP and YL was not correct.
This is why PTP will continue with the election on 2nd Feb, as by the Thai Constitution they are not allowed to delay it unless there is a National Emergency (war, natural disaster etc.).
The Bangkok Post is ultra anti-government, anti Thaksin, anti PTP.
The Nation is also bias against Thaksin, PTP.
If you want real, true commentary on the political situation you should read http://asiancorrespondent.com/
That site tells it as it is, without bias.
I'm thinking about taking a trip to Bangkok, but the press here in the US makes it seem like the city is a war zone. What's happening on the ground? Can you monger freely around town safely? Is there a curfew?The Soi Asoke protest area does not bother me. I pass through several times. If there will be undesirable areas, you just stay away. Same as when the red shirts were burning the city and black snipers will killing people a few years back. Its nothing like as bad as back then. I will still be here on election day if it actually happens. I may spend the night previous to departure closer to the airport, if anything should deteriorate badly next weekend.
I'm thinking about taking a trip to Bangkok, but the press here in the US makes it seem like the city is a war zone. What's happening on the ground? Can you monger freely around town safely? Is there a curfew?No curfew & none planned as that wasn't the purpose of the 60 day state of emergency.
You can monger safely except you might want to avoid being anywhere within a half mile of protest areas where grenades have exploded & people shot with real bullets from real guns.
So the NEP area is presently koshur, but I'd stay the hell away from Soi Cowboy, MBK, Siam Paragon, etc.
Some people have gone to Pattaya, Phuket, Chiang Mai, or other well known poon spots in LOS instead until BKK cools down a bit. Others headed to nearby Vietnam, Singapore, Malaysia, Hong Kong, etc.
Just read that he was killed in a shooting. http://www.cnn.com/2014/01/26/world/asia/thailand-protests/index.html?hpt=hp_t2
The Election Commission earlier suggested May 4 as an alternative election date.
My trips planned for May 5th. If the election doesn't go thru on feb 2nd i'll probably cancel my bangkok leg and stay in Germany.
Paul Kausch
01-27-14, 07:57
At 13:21 on 27 January the Bangkok post reported (I used the article's title as the title for this post) that in 72 hours the CMPO with assistance from the police will start rounding up protesters and shutting down demonstration sites. The article mentions the possibility of violence. As one of the larger protest sites is at Asoke, this may be something worth following.
According to Stickman's reports, Kamnan Suthep is the "leader" of the protest. According to CNN a leader named Suthin Thararin was killed at a polling station. Is this the same person they are talking about and just got the names mixed up, or are they two different people?
According to Stickman's reports, Kamnan Suthep is the "leader" of the protest. According to CNN a leader named Suthin Thararin was killed at a polling station. Is this the same person they are talking about and just got the names mixed up, or are they two different people?Suthep is the leader of the opposition. The guy who was killed was a lower level organizer of the protests. Suthep is the overall leader, Thararin was a foot soldier.
According to Stickman's reports, Kamnan Suthep is the "leader" of the protest. According to CNN a leader named Suthin Thararin was killed at a polling station. Is this the same person they are talking about and just got the names mixed up, or are they two different people?Rodwint2,
Suthin was a leader of a group of demonstrators blocking a voting station in Bang-Na on Sunday.
The overall leader of this brain-dead demonstration is Suthep Thaugsuban. Still alive (I refrained from adding a "sadly").
Slogan is: Thaug or Thak - all Thugs!
Giotto
The Bangkok Post is ultra anti-government, anti Thaksin, anti PTP.
The Nation is also bias against Thaksin, PTP.
If you want real, true commentary on the political situation you should read.
http://asiancorrespondent.com/
That site tells it as it is, without bias.Bullshit!
Giotto
At 13:21 on 27 January the Bangkok post reported (I used the article's title as the title for this post) that in 72 hours the CMPO with assistance from the police will start rounding up protesters and shutting down demonstration sites. The article mentions the possibility of violence. As one of the larger protest sites is at Asoke, this may be something worth following.A bit caution is now necessary and recommended for everybody not involved into the demonstrations (Thais and farangs).
With Chalerm and Suthep there are the biggest pigs playing around now. Unscrupulous bastards. They don't care about live getting lost or people getting hurt if they can reach their individual egoistic targets.
It's unpredictable what happens in the next few days. Things can easily escalate, because both sides have reasons to believe that violent actions are necessary and will turn out positively for their specific political target.
Careful out there!
Giotto
Rodwint2,
Suthin was a leader of a group of demonstrators blocking a voting station in Bang-Na on Sunday.
The overall leader of this brain-dead demonstration is Suthep Thaugsuban. Still alive (I refrained from adding a "sadly").
Slogan is: Thaug or Thak. All Thugs!
GiottoThank you for the clarification. Keep your head down!
Just read that he was killed in a shooting.
http://www.cnn.com/2014/01/26/world/asia/thailand-protests/index.html?hpt=hp_t2
My trips planned for May 5th. If the election doesn't go thru on feb 2nd I'll probably cancel my Bangkok leg and stay in Germany.I would have 2 trips to Thailand before your trip. It's too far away to be making decisions just yet I think. People that live here haven't planned to leave just yet either.
Member #4698
01-28-14, 15:55
This report pretty much sums up the current political situation. Elections will take place along with continued demonstrations. The fact that this meeting between Yingluck and the Election Commission had to take place in a secured building protected by the Army and surrounded by angry volatile protesters sums up everything so far.
"BANGKOK—Thailand's government Tuesday said it would go ahead with plans to hold national elections on Feb. 2, despite protests against the balloting and the opposition of the country's independent Election Commission.
The country's election commissioners met with Prime Minister Yingluck Shinawatra Tuesday in an effort to persuade her to postpone the vote.
The five-member agency has warned that the political climate in the country is too volatile for the election to go ahead peacefully, and urged Ms. Yingluck to consider delaying the polls. Thailand's Constitutional Court, which rules on political matters, last week added to the pressure on Ms. Yingluck to delay the vote, saying there was no legal impediment to a delay.
But after the meeting between the Election Commission and Ms. Yingluck, Phongthep Thepkanjana, a deputy prime minister, told reporters that elections would proceed as planned.
"Delaying the elections won't solve the problems facing our country right now," Mr. Phongthep said at an army facility where the meeting took place."The government's assessment is that if it is delayed, the problems might not stop. There might be opportunities for fresh problems to arise."
Mr. Phongthep said the possible hurdles to holding elections appear to be manageable and added that any damage to the country could worsen if the vote is delayed.
The scene outside the meeting venue was a vivid reminder of the difficulties Thailand, Southeast Asia's linchpin economy, is now facing.
About 500 demonstrators campaigning to scrap the elections besieged the army building in Bangkok in a bid to cancel the meeting. At one point, a gunshot was fired into the crowd and a protester was hit in the abdomen. Protesters quickly overpowered the alleged gunman, who was later identified as an undercover police officer assigned to take photos of the demonstration, according to police. The undercover officer fired the gun in self-defense, police said, because he believed protesters were about to attack him.
The demonstrators, led by former deputy prime minister Suthep Thaugsuban, say they are fighting to suspend Thailand's democracy in an effort to push a series of reforms designed to curb the power of Ms. Yingluck and her elder brother, former leader Thaksin Shinawatra, who was ousted in a 2006 military coup. For months now, they have staged a series of protests in Bangkok, most recently launching a campaign to shut down some of the Thai capital's busiest shopping streets.
Ms. Yingluck and her government, though, insist that reforms should only take place after elections are held. She is almost assured of winning the vote if it takes place; she was elected in a landslide in 2011 and is still popular in vote-rich regions of north and northeast Thailand. The opposition Democrat Party also is boycotting the Feb. 2 election, and many of its key members have joined their former colleague, Mr. Suthep, in marching on the streets of Bangkok.
The election isn't likely to solve Thailand's political crisis on its own. About 28 constituencies have failed to register candidates because of protester blockades, meaning that the elections will produce fewer than the 95% of seats required to open parliament.
Corrections & Amplifications
Phongthep Thepkanjana is a Thai deputy prime minister. A previous version of this story misstated his title and misspelled his name."
Paul Kausch
01-28-14, 17:20
This report pretty much sums up the current political situation.
snip
Corrections & AmplificationsThe only thing I'd add is the National Anti-corruption Commission (NACC) has begun investigating Yingluck on corruption charges stemming from her management of the rice scheme. The commission is seeking grounds to file formal charges and initiate impeachment proceedings against her. They think they can wrap this matter up in about 30 days. Formal corruption charges have already been filed against fifteen of her ministers. Yingluck will be served next week, after the election. The NACC has already determined that the previous rice sales where a sham. The Chinese company that allegedly made the purchase in fact did not and the rice never left the country. What remains to be determined is who will be found guilty.
Paul Kausch
01-28-14, 23:06
The Bangkok Post writes the following:
The decision by the government and the Election Commission (EC) yesterday to proceed with this Sunday's election means the process will not be completed for several months.
The process of calling new elections in problematic constituencies primarily in Bangkok and in the South means an extended election process which could last up to six months, a senior government source said after the meeting.
The prospect of the election proceeding amid rising tension and difficulties arose yesterday after the EC failed to convince the caretaker government to defer the poll.
They go on to write:
The government source believes it would come as no surprise if a petition to nullify Sunday's election is filed with the Constitution Court.
And.
The government also believes that if Sunday's polls are postponed there is greater potential for violence as supporters of the United Front for Democracy against Dictatorship or red shirts would mobilise raising the possibility of confrontation with anti-government protesters.
People's Democratic Reform Committee (PDRC) leader Suthep Thaugsuban told demonstrators at the Pathumwan rally site last night that the PDRC would escalate its protest to block Sunday's election.
Best to stay away from polling stations.
El Frances
01-30-14, 08:49
How is today's protest (Dec 30th). Has been Suthep able to gather a mass protest, or is it just like a few days ago? Of course, nothing about the real number of protesters in Bangkok post or Nation.
If you have a minute for one more article:
http://www.counterpunch.org/2014/01/29/down-and-out-in-thailand/
Paul Kausch
01-30-14, 16:15
How is today's protest (Dec 30th). Has been Suthep able to gather a mass protest, or is it just like a few days ago? Of course, nothing about the real number of protesters in Bangkok post or Nation.Here's what the Bangkok Post writes about it.
http://www.bangkokpost.com/news/politics/392308/suthep-leads-pdrc-protest-march-up-sukhumvit-road
The Landmark's webcam shows traffic on Sukhumvit is as it has been for the last couple of weeks.
If you have a minute for one more article:
http://www.counterpunch.org/2014/01/29/down-and-out-in-thailand/Golfinho,
The piece reads nicely, but its a very one-sided description of what's really going on in teh background. Basically all arguments from those people come up, who always live in the past, and do not see the world changing.
Thaksin did NOT want to convert Thailand into a modern country. Thaksin had his own agenda to create a new elite to drain the "rice bowl" of government tax income as efficient as possible. The THB 30 health care scheme was not refinanced, and basically a huge bubble without substance, fraud on the people. And many hospitals went close to bankrupt because they could not deliver the requested service. For free. The refinancing was then later secured by a YELLOW government.
Still. Thaksin's propaganda machine worked / works that well that the people in the North / North-East still love him today. Only pretending to do something for the people of this region was more than the DP government before ever did. That's why I cannot feel sorry for what happens to the old elite (partially represented by the DP). They get what they deserve. They had it in their hands to play a game similar to Thaksin's bigmouth promises and his populist politics - but they did not. Now they suffer the consequences.
Sadly, things are not as easy as the author describes it in his piece. It's not simple class struggle. Besides many other factors the author especially does not reflect the major elephant in the room of all Thai politics right now: the succession problem.
Giotto
Sadly, things are not as easy as the author describes it in his piece.
GiottoIt is very hard to hold any optimism for the future of Thailand at all. Its a very long hard road back to any normalcy from massive debt financing many useless projects and lining of pockets. Is reduction of corruption even possible?
Paul Kausch
01-31-14, 06:49
It is very hard to hold any optimism for the future of Thailand at all. Its a very long hard road back to any normalcy from massive debt financing many useless projects and lining of pockets. Is reduction of corruption even possible?Other than Norway, it's national oil fund is up to close to US$800 billion, are you optimistic for the future of any country?
A few hours ago I read that a group of close to 80 private sector organizations, businesses, leading academics, NGOs and the media have announced they are setting the stage for the beginning of long-term national reforms. This is just a hunch, but I'm wondering if the events unfolding are the results of plans that were put in motion long before the foolish amnesty bill was introduced. Was that bill just the catalyst that set everything in motion?
This looks like a chess match to me; and with each move the opposition's position grows stronger.
The government promised partial payments to the rice farmers to get them to end the road blockades. Then the banks refuse to loan the government money to make the partial payment. Now how much faith do the rice farmers have in Pheu Thai? Recall that the government was warned that it did not have the authority to borrow money. Who do you think that warning was really being directed to? Guess what was a major reason the banks gave to justify not extending the loans.
The government issued an Emergency Decree and used the Decree as grounds to issue arrest warrants for the opposition leaders. The opposition petitioned the court to declare the Emergency Decree invalid. The court's decision is expected before the end of today. What do you think it will decide? If the Decree is declared invalid, will the government have legal grounds to try to stop the election protests? Today Suthep announced they will only engage in peaceful protests against the elections and not prevent anyone from voting. If this is the case and there is violence, who will appear to be at fault?
The EC announced it will take months to finalize the elections. The court announced Yingluck's guilt or innocence in the rice scheme, and whether she will be barred from holding office, will be decided by the end of February. Along with her, fourteen of her ministers and about three hundred former Pheu Thai MPs are also facing being barred from politics.
If the election drags on and hundreds of Pheu Thai Party members have been disqualified from holding office will the red shirts growing frustration cause them to miscalculate and strike out? Is this what the opposition and the military have been planning and waiting for? Will the red shirts be crushed, the Pheu Thai implicated in the violence and banned, and its leaders flee the country to avoid prosecution? The opposition says one of its goals is to banish the Shinawatra family from the country. Will a civil war break out? If it does, how long will it last? In 1989, 1968 and 1956 the world saw what tanks can do to protesters.
Will the long-term reforms result in all corruption being rooted out of the system, the fiscal house put in order, pork barrel projects ending once and for all and every child in Thailand getting a pony on his or her next birthday? I doubt it. Could this be a stage in the evolution of Thai politics? Beats me. What do I know?
Finally getting some real reporting in the media about things.
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Southeast_Asia/SEA-02-300114.html
Other than Norway, it's national oil fund is up to close to US$800 billion, are you optimistic for the future of any country?I wrote a rhetorical question or two that wasn't meant to be answered. Just to express pessimism. Are all your questions rhetorical too? I am sure they cannot be answered by anyone.
Paul Kausch
01-31-14, 21:10
I wrote a rhetorical question or two that wasn't meant to be answered. Just to express pessimism. Are all your questions rhetorical too? I am sure they cannot be answered by anyone.Could have used a few smilies to make the tongue-and-cheek clearer. Anyone who knows the answers to my questions should keep that crystal ball very secure, start an investment advisory service and make several tons of money. Some of the moves I am starting to anticipate. For example, I figured all the warnings about the government lacking the authority to take on debt was directed towards the banks. It worked. All but a couple backed out and the ones that bid demanded very high interest. A week or so ago I heard that was going to be the outcome, which is another reason why I think this whole affair is being orchestrated and people who know who to listen to know what's coming.
El Frances
01-31-14, 23:50
Finally getting some real reporting in the media about things.
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Southeast_Asia/SEA-02-300114.htmlReally excellent article!
And for the lighter side of Thai politics.
Read this : http://notthenation.com/2014/01/suthep-leaves-protests-for-emergency-whitening-treatment/
And then have a watch of this : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mI4Pu0olT34
Some fighting ongoing in Laksi (close to Don Muang). Gunshots, people wounded.
Giotto
Some fighting ongoing in Laksi (close to Don Muang). Gunshots, people wounded.
GiottoPDRC started shooting red shirts and all chaos broke loose.
Lots of photos and videos of PDRC guards with handguns and also rifles.
This report shows it clearly. PDRC non-violent? LOL.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-25998717
After looking at the BBC sight I can't find any videos of PDRC guards with guns. Yes there are people with guns in one picture but I didin't see any affiliation markings. The article doesn't say who did what. Just that there was shooting going on in that area. Give us web sight to see the videos and determine who is red or yellow. Other than pictures of the protesters who we know are yellow shirt backers
Paul Kausch
02-01-14, 18:29
After looking at the BBC sight I can't find any videos of PDRC guards with guns.I've watched video on the BBC and the Bangkok Post. You don't see the beginning of the shooting. It's impossible to tell who started it.
The protest security guards wear green arm bands. I've read in various places that they are former and current Thai military special forces. The level of intelligence of the media covering the protests is evident by their choice of almost identical green armbands.
As to who started it, up until now the fatalities have been protesters and every reasonably objective article I've read makes statements like, "It's common knowledge people backing the government are responsible for the violence." Seems the protesters' strategy is to provoke the government supporters into attacking first, but being ready to quickly respond. The government is in a bad situation that is getting worse. Its attempt to borrow money to make a partial payment to the rice growers failed when banks refused to loan the government money. Now the rice farmers have resumed blocking roads and are urging people not to vote. I also recently read many of the hospitals and clinics that have been providing low cost health care have not received government payments for the services they provided. Now many are experiencing severe financial problems. Is there a pattern here?
After looking at the BBC sight I can't find any videos of PDRC guards with guns. Yes there are people with guns in one picture but I didin't see any affiliation markings. The article doesn't say who did what. Just that there was shooting going on in that area. Give us web sight to see the videos and determine who is red or yellow. Other than pictures of the protesters who we know are yellow shirt backersPerhaps this video showing PDRC guards moving ahead of the main mob and firing a rifle which is hidden inside a bag.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BjSMZhQHmzM&feature=youtu.be
Or perhaps anyone of the many photo's below. :
PDRC started shooting red shirts and all chaos broke loose.
Lots of photos and videos of PDRC guards with handguns and also rifles.
This report shows it clearly. PDRC non-violent? LOL.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-25998717This is how it goes. Early judgements of those living of yesterday, politically one sided and blind on the other eye. That contributes to the polarization and does not help at all.
I have no clue how somebody can support this corrupt and incompetent Yingluck (PT) government after the attempt to push trough the amnesty law, after realizing the disastrous effects of the rice scheme and after the fault-pas in accepting constitutional institutions and verdicts. I also have no understanding that anybody really wants Thaksin back to create more chaos than he has already done. But there are idiots out there, obviously.
I also have no understanding how people can support the ongoing demonstration, block roads and traffic, damage the economy seriously, hinder others to vote, support the creation of a complete undemocratic government as the PDRC suggests. How dumb! And all that under the leadership of a know criminal corrupt asshole as Suthep is, as we all know.
But. There are too many small brained people out there who do not want to learn, who do not want to change, who do not want to listen.
Giotto
Der Tourist
02-02-14, 05:05
What this whole situation does show is that democracy as such is not exactly a great system for emerging (or developing) nations despite the propaganda by US and some of its Western allies. If you look at countries / territories like Taiwan, South Korea, Japan, Singapore or Hong Kong you'll see that all of them had their economic take-offs and transformation from developing into developed countries while being non-democracies. South Korea and Taiwan were, in fact, military dictatorships. Even Western nations while undergoing industrialisation in the 19th century we hardly any democratic by today's standards. The reality is that Western style electoral system doesn't work for developing / emerging countries. Especially in Asia. This is a fact.
The point is that the longer Thailand will pretend to be 'democratic' and 'negotiate' between opposing factions the longer this political limbo will continue.
Politics is a very negative thing. They are all against something. They call for reform.
However there is no reform plan. When will some faction come up with a positive approach to getting Thailand out of the mess? Right now its all negative and destructive.
This is how it goes. Early judgements of those living of yesterday, politically one sided and blind on the other eye. That contributes to the polarization and does not help at all.
I have no clue how somebody can support this corrupt and incompetent Yingluck (PT) government after the attempt to push trough the amnesty law, after realizing the disastrous effects of the rice scheme and after the fault-pas in accepting constitutional institutions and verdicts. I also have no understanding that anybody really wants Thaksin back to create more chaos than he has already done. But there are idiots like The Pro out there, obviously.
I also have no understanding how people can support the ongoing demonstration, block roads and traffic, damage the economy seriously, hinder others to vote, support the creation of a complete undemocratic government as the PDRC suggests. How dumb! And all that under the leadership of a know criminal corrupt asshole as Suthep is, as we all know.
But. There are too many small brained people out there who do not want to learn, who do not want to change, who do not want to listen. The Pro is the best example for this species of idiots. But he is obviously not alone.
GiottoJust look at the irony here. A person who believes he is so intelligent has to resort to name calling and personal attacks towards someone who dared to disagree with his position.
Just look at the irony here. A person who believes he is so intelligent has to resort to name calling and personal attacks towards someone who dared to disagree with his position.Nahh.
Let's call idiots "idiots".
I don't really have a position somebody can disagree with... and I attack wrong facts and not political opinions.
Giotto
Nahh.
Let's call idiots "idiots".
I don't really have a position somebody can disagree with. And I attack wrong facts and not political opinions.
GiottoThere's no such thing as "wrong facts." Any idiot could tell you that smart guy and name calling is personal attacks. Carry on.
There's no such thing as "wrong facts." Any idiot could tell you that smart guy and name calling is personal attacks. Carry on.Ouch,
Entering philosophical levels now. Are there moral facts?
You are correct, there is no such thing as "wrong facts", I should have said "lies"? That sounds much harder in my ears.
And - of course name calling can be a personal attack. But who is "The Pro"? A handle? A real character? Somebody who acts / writes in a specific way to provoke idiots like me to call him an "idiot"?
Who takes all this so seriously? ISG = New Mandala? It's simply Sunday morning sitting on a computer, reading and writing, some more, some less nonsense.
Giotto
There's no such thing as "wrong facts."I would have thought the news media was full of "wrong facts" also known as bullshit and lies. Still there are people who believe easily. Its hard for me to believe anything I did not see, and even then have to allow for various possibilities. A gunman is a gunman. Doesn't make any difference what colour he is wearing or not. You cannot blame any group for the actions of the gunman. He did not ask permission from the entire group he has been labelled as belonging to. Have to blame the actual perpetrators and who they take orders from. Seems Thailand is not great at capturing perpetrators.
If guys want to put up preposterous things, not based on their own experiences, they can. However they should not be too sensitive about disagreement. This is no polite forum. We all get called names from time to time, but don't have to own them (if they don't fit). Anyone very sensitive should have left by now.
Paul Kausch
02-02-14, 06:13
i seem to recall years ago listening to a colloquium in which a political scientist talked about the necessary preconditions for a functional democratic political system. the most important are an advanced level of industrial development and a large, educated middle class. i can think of some examples that confirm this premise. i can't think of any examples that disconfirm it.
the bangkok post just published an editorial in which it likened yinluck's fate to death by a thousand cuts, slow, painful and inevitable. she's trapped. the election will not yield a parliament. it will likely be declared invalid. a new election will take months to organize. there is no mechanism for her to resign as head of the caretaker government, which has no real power, and most importantly no authority to borrow money to pay the rice farmers who have already resumed their highway blockades. she will continue on as the irrelevant head of a powerless government. in the mean time, she, fourteen ministers and about 300 former pheu thai mps await verdicts on corruption and various malfeasance charges, which would bar them from holding elected office. prominent thaksin supporters are being threatened with investigations into the means by which they have accumulated personal wealth and face the prospect of having it confirep001ed. yesterday i read close to 80 organizations are setting the stage for government reform meetings to take place. i suspect these events have been planned for some time. i see suthip as the public face of the opposition, but the real opposition leaders are operating in backrooms out of sight. it seems with each move and counter-move the shinawatra's position grows weaker. i can't see them surviving much longer, maybe a couple more months. the sixty-four thousand dollar question is, "what will happen then?"
Ouch,
Entering philosophical levels now. Are there moral facts?
You are correct, there is no such thing as "wrong facts", I should have said "lies"? That sounds much harder in my ears.
And. Of course name calling can be a personal attack. But who is "The Pro"? A handle? A real character? Somebody who acts / writes in a specific way to provoke idiots like me to call him an "idiot"?
Who takes all this so seriously? GiottoYou do, you take it seriously! Reading your retort to "the pro," I though you were coming un-glued and would do damage to him if he was in front of you. You've made no secret of your disdain for him over the years. Not saying he's not deserving of a good bashing but poor attempt on your part to try to play the don't take this board seriously now card after your very serious reply to him below. But nice of you to drop the temperature level down.
You do, you take it seriously! Reading your retort to "the pro," I though you were coming un-glued and would do damage to him if he was in front of you. You've made no secret of your disdain for him over the years. Not saying he's not deserving of a good bashing but poor attempt on your part to try to play the don't take this board seriously now card after your very serious reply to him below. But nice of you to drop the temperature level down.LOL, Mr. ISG Police,
You are dead wrong. I do not care at all.
Whenever The Pro (whoever he might be) comes up with his simplifications, lies ("wrong" facts) or the preconceptions of the past (the opinions of yesterday) I will call him what he is - an idiot. BTW, I even remember me supporting him whenever wrote something reasonable, while his brain was switched on. Sadly this happens only once a year or so.
The Pro is an idiot (most of the time) , and NicFrenchy is a prick (all of the time)!
The word "idiot" was worth 3 or your replies ? Wow ! May be you write something about Thai politics, for a change?
Giotto
i seem to recall years ago listening to a colloquium in which a political scientist talked about the necessary preconditions for a functional democratic political system. the most important are an advanced level of industrial development and a large, educated middle class. i can think of some examples that confirm this premise. i can't think of any examples that disconfirm it.
the bangkok post just published an editorial in which it likened yinluck's fate to death by a thousand cuts, slow, painful and inevitable. she's trapped. the election will not yield a parliament. it will likely be declared invalid. a new election will take months to organize. there is no mechanism for her to resign as head of the caretaker government, which has no real power, and most importantly no authority to borrow money to pay the rice farmers who have already resumed their highway blockades. she will continue on as the irrelevant head of a powerless government. in the mean time, she, fourteen ministers and about 300 former pheu thai mps await verdicts on corruption and various malfeasance charges, which would bar them from holding elected office. prominent thaksin supporters are being threatened with investigations into the means by which they have accumulated personal wealth and face the prospect of having it confirep001ed. yesterday i read close to 80 organizations are setting the stage for government reform meetings to take place. i suspect these events have been planned for some time. i see suthip as the public face of the opposition, but the real opposition leaders are operating in backrooms out of sight. it seems with each move and counter-move the shinawatra's position grows weaker. i can't see them surviving much longer, maybe a couple more months. the sixty-four thousand dollar question is,"what will happen then?"if you've been following giotto's educated posts & the excellent articles from the pro, they give a rather complete picture of the political situation with both sides presented, not just the yellow.
what the reds have on their side is the real "people power", not the imaginary make belief suthep kind. that is the ultimate trump card, if you are familiar with the game of bridge. so why would the shins be going anywhere. many people feel they have been playing this chess game very intelligently since yl became caretaker, & ts has outmaneuvered his opponents every step of the way.
it is no secret & well known ts opponents have the judiciary & other elements in their pocket. ts on the other has the numbers of people and the vote, with all the power behind that, such as for example, the ability to siege bangkok, set up government in the north, or separate from the rest of thailand into a new country. so i'd say he still has a few cards yet to play. in fact many have opined that it is his enemies, the old school elites, whose days are numbered.
evidently poster old thai hand was correct in his prediction of a few years ago, that los was headed for tough times, as he was contemplating greener pastures.
LOL, Mr. ISG Police,
You are dead wrong. I do not care at all.
Whenever The Pro (whoever he might be) comes up with his simplifications, lies ("wrong" facts) or the preconceptions of the past (the opinions of yesterday) I will call him what he is. An idiot. BTW, I even remember me supporting him whenever wrote something reasonable, while his brain was switched on. Sadly this happens only once a year or so.
The Pro is an idiot (most of the time) , and NicFrenchy is a prick (all of the time). !
-
The word "idiot" was worth 3 or your replies? Wow! May be you write something about Thai politics, for a change?
GiottoISG Police? You should look in the mirror but It was worth it to expose you and I will write what I want not what you want.
ISG Police? You should look in the mirror but It was worth it to expose you and I will write what I want not what you want.Mr. Exposer,
Mirror? You obviously also live in the past. I don't write much in this forum any more, I leave the ISG police job to people like you. Now that you have exposed what I already thought I had exposed by myself (the idiocy of some reports and posters) everything should be fine for you, ok? And - thanks for your help!
If you want to write what you want to write. That's absolutely ok. Can I have the same right to do so :) ?
Coming back to the facts, the reports I sometimes only commented with "bullshit". That's obviously causes some problems for you, and other posters (there are more idiots on the forum) call them "excellent" reports. Let's pick one of those "excellent" reports:
The Bangkok Post is ultra anti-government, anti Thaksin, anti PTP.
The Nation is also bias against Thaksin, PTP.
...Run Mann,
You are also quite informed about the political situation and the press here in Thailand. YOU KNOW THAT THIS IS BULLSHIT! You could have clarified this, too!
This statement is approximately 8 years old, that time it might have had some points. Today you find lots of anti-PDRC and anti-Suthep pieces especially in the Bangkok Post. You find political comments that are not too government unfriendly. Let's pick some (fast selected from Voranai Vanijaka's comments, there are others):
http://www.bangkokpost.com/opinion/opinion/392302/you-don-t-have-to-respect-my-vote-but-you-do-have-to-respect-my-democratic-rights-one-of-them-being-the-right-to-vote-says-voranai-vanijaka
http://www.bangkokpost.com/opinion/opinion/390300/with-all-sides-wrong-there-can-be-no-right
The the latter you find statements like:
"...
It is not what Thaksin did wrong. It is what we all have done wrong and continue to do so. Without first recognising this, there is no solution and there can be no reform."
http://www.bangkokpost.com/opinion/opinion/392893/only-compromise-can-end-the-crisis
In 'The Nation' I have read a piece about the political process and Constitutional Court verdict regarding the amendment of the constitution to elect ALL senators. The piece was clearly supporting the governments / parliaments right to amend the constitution, raising the question what kind of constitution Thailand had installed if all attempts to modify it could be reversed with the reason that it was an attempt to overthrow the monarchy.
The Nation still has Thanong Khanthong as managing editor, with an ultra yellow mindset.
That means: If you want to describe the political orientation and bias of the English-language daily newspapers in Thailand you can classify The Nation as anti-government and quite yellow, but you cannot classify The Bangkok Post as "ultra anti-government, anti Thaksin, anti PTP." That's simply bullshit! There are clear orange colors popping up in between in the Bangkok Post!
And whenever statements like those in the report above pop up I will flag them as bullshit, and after a while, if bullshit like this continues to pop up out of one source with the clear intention to cause disinformation of the readers here I will expose the writer as the idiot he is.
Giotto
I considered for a while whether I should comment on "this", or whether I should return to my retirement. I decided to do both. Set this "piece" straight and then retire.
Most likely there will be more low-life north-eastern nonsense popping up soon, and I don't really need that. I have discussions with those morons every day. Farangs being more Thai than Thais. Farangs, living their lives with their ex-bargirl wives / girlfriends up in the North / North-East, in a village or small town, believing they have found paradise. Nothing wrong with that, but when they start to impose there "paradise" on others discussions get easily out of control. I am so sick and tired of those idiots.
If you've been following Giotto's educated posts & the excellent articles from the Pro, they give a rather complete picture of the political situation with both sides presented, not just the yellow.The real yellow position was not at all presented, and there are no excellent articles from The Pro. Just bullshit. As for me: politically I neither support the yellow nor the red side due to their proven political stupidity of the second half of 2013 / first month of 2014. The color of my political opinion would be a dark orange, closer to red than to yellow.
What the reds have on their side is the real "people power", not the imaginary make belief Suthep kind. That is the ultimate trump card, if you are familiar with the game of bridge. So why would the Shins be going anywhere. Many people feel they have been playing this chess game very intelligently since YL became caretaker, & TS has outmaneuvered his opponents every step of the way.Oh yeah! Outmaneuvered! LOL. You refer to the amnesty bill the PTP wanted to push through to get Thaksin back into Thailand? So the Shins outmaneuvered themselves?
Correct is that the first 2 years of the PTP government were quiet and reasonable, some good programs were started (some not so good either) , and peace between yellow and red was kept. There was no reason to change this with the stupid government actions of late 2013. This peace was clearly terminated by actions from the red side.
It is no secret & well known TS opponents have the judiciary & other elements in their pocket. TS on the other has the numbers of people and the vote, with all the power behind that, such as for example, the ability to siege Bangkok, set up government in the North, or separate from the rest of Thailand into a new country. So I'd say he still has a few cards yet to play. In fact many have opined that it is his enemies, the old school elites, whose days are numbered.Do you really believe what you write here?
First of all, the idea to separate the North of Thailand into a new country is High Treason. This only as a side note. But then - do you really believe such a county could survive? To pay for rent for an embassy in the US will eat up the complete yearly tax income of that country! Do you really believe that Thaksin is that DUMB to even consider that? No. He is not that dumb! This is the typical red shirt village nonsense talk!
And then - the "old school elites" are popping up, as always when Reds have no more arguments. Who is that? Prem and the Privy Council (average age 87)? And do you really believe that those people are not already in the PTP? Who is Chalerm then? Foreign Minister Bunnag (Somchai goverment)? The Finance Minister Kittirat na Ranong? Do you really believe the old power structures have not already anchors in all new political movements? You don't believe that this people are strategically thinking, planning and acting?
My oh my ...
Giotto
If you want to write what you want to write. That's absolutely ok. Can I have the same right to do so :) ?You're all over the place contradicting yourself but I never questioned or suggested what you should or could not write as you tried to do to me. I questioned the manner in which you choose to convey your points but I will not take the time to explain this to you anymore. As a moderator and long time member I know you know Jackson don't approve of your personal attacks but if that's all you got then so be it. The cheap way out is to accuse people who rightly call you out to be policing the board, its a long over-use and ineffective tactic by people who have no merit to support their POV. Back to regular programming.
What this whole situation does show is that democracy as such is not exactly a great system for emerging (or developing) nations despite the propaganda by US and some of its Western allies.
The point is that the longer Thailand will pretend to be 'democratic' and 'negotiate' between opposing factions the longer this political limbo will continue.So a democracy will only work if both sides have a 'reasonable' (or even remote chance sometimes) of winning. Once that is gone then it's a 'nondemocracy' freeing them to employ other 'non democratic' means.
And then its just open season.
Paul Kausch
02-03-14, 06:24
Here's a sobering article to read about the disastrous rice scheme and the harm it is doing to Thailand's rice industry and financial health. As one rice industry expert puts it, "If this rice pledging scheme continues, the country will be broke." So far Thailand has had to borrow 700 billion baht to finance the program. The interest alone that the tax payers have to carry is 21 billion baht a year, and that is at 3%. As Thailand's finances deteriorate this interest rate will skyrocket.
http://www.bangkokpost.com/business/news/392896/a-rotten-harvest
This article makes it pretty clear why Thaksin, his clan and cronies are a disaster for Thailand. Some politicians skim the cream off the top for themselves. It seems Thaksin is skimming the cream, taking the milk and stealing the cows!
Here's a sobering article to read about the disastrous rice scheme and the harm it is doing to Thailand's rice industry and financial health. As one rice industry expert puts it,"If this rice pledging scheme continues, the country will be broke." So far Thailand has had to borrow 700 billion baht to finance the program. The interest alone that the tax payers have to carry is 21 billion baht a year, and that is at 3. As Thailand's finances deteriorate this interest rate will skyrocket.
http://www.bangkokpost.com/business/news/392896/a-rotten-harvest
This article makes it pretty clear why Thaksin, his clan and cronies are a disaster for Thailand. Some politicians skim the cream off the top for themselves. It seems Thaksin is skimming the cream, taking the milk and stealing the cows!Any article in the Bangkok Post (apart from perhaps Vorani) is totally biased against PTP, Thaksin / Yingluck.
The Bangkok Post is pretty much totally biased.
Let me ask you this.
The country with the biggest deficit in the world is the USA. The budget deficit rises every second of every minute as its spending more than it makes. Running a deficit is quite normal for most governments in the world. The money is not "lost" as the money is distributed.
PTP is running the rice scheme as a deficit, its a subsidy, and it will drain cash yes, but its not lost.
Its purely running, just like the USA, a budget deficit.
Its just most people do not understand economics that certain elements try to portray the scheme as pure loss making, as opposed to it actually just being a subsidy and part of running a budget deficit in order to redistribute wealth to the lower paid.
If you look at the image attached, the North and the North East put more into GDP than they get out of it.
Only Bangkok puts less money in and takes most of the money out for their benefit, with new roads, expressways, BTS, MRT, projects where the Elite skim all the money etc. So are you really surprised that PDRC Bangkokians are upset with the rice scheme, its going to mean that they get less money and rightly so, and the North and North East might actually for the first time get more out than they put in to the pot.
The stories of Isaan farmers stealing all the tax money is total nonsense. In fact Bangkok has skimmed the majority of the countries money for decades upon decades. Thaksin started to correct this and soon became very unpopular.
The rest as they say, is history.
Wolvenvacht
02-03-14, 08:16
Some politicians skim the cream off the top for themselves. It seems Thaksin is skimming the cream, taking the milk and stealing the cows!If Thaksin also steals the water buffaloes, then the bargirls will have another argument to get money from us poor ignorant farangs.
This article makes it pretty clear why Thaksin, his clan and cronies are a disaster for Thailand. Some politicians skim the cream off the top for themselves. It seems Thaksin is skimming the cream, taking the milk and stealing the cows!And maybe selling milk and meat back to the population at premium price.
Here's a sobering article to read about the disastrous rice scheme and the harm it is doing to Thailand's rice industry and financial health. As one rice industry expert puts it,"If this rice pledging scheme continues, the country will be broke." So far Thailand has had to borrow 700 billion baht to finance the program. The interest alone that the tax payers have to carry is 21 billion baht a year, and that is at 3. As Thailand's finances deteriorate this interest rate will skyrocket.
http://www.bangkokpost.com/business/news/392896/a-rotten-harvest
This article makes it pretty clear why Thaksin, his clan and cronies are a disaster for Thailand. Some politicians skim the cream off the top for themselves. It seems Thaksin is skimming the cream, taking the milk and stealing the cows!The EU spends 1600 billion baht on direct subsidies (the lower 2010 figure)
And that's direct, taking into account purchase and sale.
The 800 billion baht figure in the Bangkok Post super anti government write up effectively values all the rice at zero. Only looking at purchase price and not the value of selling it. Whereas the EU figure takes into account buy and sell.
If you were to use the Bangkok Post method on EU subsidies for agriculture then it would move to perhaps 4000 billion baht to 6000 billion baht.
As ever, the media is deliberately putting out misleading propaganda to support the PDRC / Elite.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agricultural_subsidy
You refer to the amnesty bill the PTP wanted to push through to get Thaksin back into Thailand? So the Shins outmaneuvered themselves?
This peace was clearly terminated by actions from the red side.
Do you really believe such a county could survive? To pay for rent for an embassy in the US will eat up the complete yearly tax income of that country!
Who is Chalerm then?Chalerm is the bloke who "vows to have Thaksin back or cut off head, to stop violence in the south within 90 days, arrest Suthep within 72 hours and countless other things."
The pushing of the amnesty bill was before YL became caretaker, so not during the period I spoke of. This attempt to thereby whitewash TS is widely considered to have been a mistake, in retrospect, since it was not well recieved and followed up with the madness of the past 3 months. It was a gamble that did not achieve YL's expressed results of her brother's return and national reconciliation.
BTW if TS is still desirous of living in LOS, having his own country in areas North of Bangkok would have the advantage of making his come back & immunity relatively easy. Likewise if he were interested in being the undisputed hassle free dictator of his own domain. While the only thing on my mind is the next sperm donation, TS may be contemplating the future for his children's children, his legacy & generations ahead.
The nation of Thaksinland in what is now part of Thailand would not only survive but thrive as it watched Bangkok slowly sink under water in the coming decades. Not only is the city headed towards Hades, but the red North has the potential to flood it, cut off its power & cheap labour, steal its tourism and starve it to death at will. Sounds to me like a win win situation for the north, which as it so happens also won in the American civil war & in Vietnam.
Moreover a business genius like TS, with the backing of his wealthy partner investors & the international community, especially China, would have the ability to transform his country into a mix of places such as Singapore & Macau. He could permit foreigners to purchase land & property, make easy retirement rules, allow 90 day visa free visits like Malaysia does, set up gogos & casinos galore, etc. With any luck he might even lure OTH back from the Middle East.
That being said I pray to the gods it will not come to this & the opposing elites can reach a happy agreement that will keep Thailand as the one smiling sex tourist nation it is.
But don't let any of this concern you. Enjoy your retirement. Hopefully it will be more fun than beating your little head (the one you use the most) against a brick wall.
Paul Kausch
02-03-14, 16:28
And maybe selling milk and meat back to the population at premium price.The government would have to borrow money to pay the farmers under any circumstance. It is buying rice at 40% above market. Oddly, the government is hoarding the rice, evening though each year it is stored it loses 10% in value. Some of the rice has been stored for over two years. The government is not telling anyone how much it has sold and how much it is holding. My first reaction is they are up to something. Then I pause to think. They may be more than the biggest crooks. They may be the biggest, dumbest crooks.
Paul Kausch
02-03-14, 19:09
Just listened to a webcast about the short term outlook for the SET. Naturally the election and it's aftermath were discussed. One of the interesting things I heard was many of the protesters at the election sites were rice farmers from the north. The analysts said the rice farmers are turning on Yingluck and Pheu Thai.
See video coverage: http://www.cnn.com/video/data/2.0/video/bestoftv/2014/02/02/pkg-mohsin-thai-election.cnn.html
A good write up on the current situation, avoiding some big issues but still, fairly decent.
http://www.globalpost.com/dispatch/news/regions/asia-pacific/thailand/140203/coup-watch-bloody-days-ahead-bangkok
Excellent article by the WSJ.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702303442704579360272255058790.html?dsk=y
Excellent article by the WSJ.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702303442704579360272255058790.html?dsk=yWSJ is a tremendous font of Neo-Liberal Western ethnocentrism. Right up there with the Economist.
.Thaksin. could permit foreigners to purchase land & property, make easy retirement rules, allow 90 day visa free visits like Malaysia does, set up gogos & casinos galore, etc.Um. You weren't in Thailand during his regime, were you? His was a socially conservative agenda (as is normal in democracies, particularly those with female suffrage) , and he was trying to gradually remove foreigners, make long-stays and retirement more difficult, and close sex-related business and reduce sex tourism. All the things the sex tourist likes about Thailand are related to the happy feudalism, not these neo-liberal democratizers.
Crocodilexp
02-04-14, 19:22
Um. You weren't in Thailand during his regime, were you? His was a socially conservative agenda (as is normal in democracies, particularly those with female suffrage) , and he was trying to gradually remove foreigners, make long-stays and retirement more difficult, and close sex-related business and reduce sex tourism. All the things the sex tourist likes about Thailand are related to the happy feudalism, not these neo-liberal democratizers.Spot on when it comes to the sex tourist perspective. It's worth adding that income inequality along with the lack of basic social services helps too. Thaksin also introduced basic healthcare for everyone, removing some of the motivation for entering the business (not all those sob stories were false).
However good the feutal-military junta could be for the hobby, I can't sincerely cheer for them out of empathy for the majority of the Thais who do deserve better.
Paul Kausch
02-04-14, 20:45
Excellent article by the WSJ.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702303442704579360272255058790.html?dsk=y
Spot on when it comes to the sex tourist perspective. It's worth adding that income inequality along with the lack of basic social services helps too. Thaksin also introduced basic healthcare for everyone, removing some of the motivation for entering the business (not all those sob stories were false).
However good the feutal-military junta could be for the hobby, I can't sincerely cheer for them out of empathy for the majority of the Thais who do deserve better.While paying the rice farmers inflated prices for their rice and offering almost free health care sounds noble to some, Thaksin never paid for these programs. Hospitals and clinics who have been providing low cost health care have not been reimbursed by the government and are experiencing financial difficulties. The government so far borrowed 700 billion baht to finance the rice scheme, is in default in payments to the rice farmers and is holding vast quantities of rice which if sold would result in huge loses. It paid 40% above market price for the rice. The consensus opinion of Thai economists is that unless there is major reform, the country will be bankrupt in a few years.
BBC interview with leader of the opposition Democrat Party who boycotted this election and who are regarded by the majority of people in Thailand as scum bags who feed from the trough of the scraps of the Elite.
You'll see from the interview what an arrogant spin man this guy is, and you'll see why most people hate him and why he and his party ALWAYS lose elections. As they cannot win elections its why they want to stop elections and reform the system to make sure in future only they can win, or if anyone does win they have to be in a mass coalition government with them, meaning they will always in future run the country, either directly or by making it impossible to anyone else to run it without their help.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ua1i6Csx1KE
Paul Kausch
02-05-14, 01:41
Interesting article in the Bangkok Post. Here are a few juicy quotes from the article.
"Chookiat Ophaswongse, honorary president of the Thai Rice Exporters Association, said the rice-trading community has suspected for long that the deal to sell 1. 2 million tonnes of rice (to the Chinese) was fake from the outset."
"When the National Anti-Corruption Commission (NACC) started investigations into the transparency of rice deals between Thailand and China, the government declared it was scrapping the deal to cut off any more investigations, he said."
Nipon Puapongsakorn, a distinguished fellow at the Thailand Development Research Institute, said, "The government has been playing a game for two years to mislead the people that it can sell its rice stocks on a G2G basis, ' he said. 'But that's a lie."
To paraphrase The Bard, something is rotten in Thailand.
LoverboyJerico
02-05-14, 03:07
Hi guys, I am planning to travel to Bangkok on 10th Feb for 5 nights. I want to know how safe it is right now to travel to Bangkok and Pattaya for an Indian travelling there first time. Also please let me know if the club's alcohol and women all will be open
Member #4698
02-05-14, 04:03
Since the 1930's Thailand has always had corrupt politicians running the country and it was business as usual because no corrupt family ever tried to steal the whole pie before. But Thaksin Shinawatra is a new breed of politician. Ever since he strode upon the Thai political scene the country has had this intractable catastrophic disaster looming. If you want to know more about it and why Thaksin generates such fervent support and vehement opposition, I suggest you read this excellent background piece by Jeffrey Race in the Asia Times.
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Southeast_Asia/SEA-01-130114.html
I guess I give my hand away when I say democracies can be bought and sold and ask is a bought and sold democracy really democratic? Look at Chavez and Venezuela which is a perfect example of the tyranny of the majority controlled by a powerful group of elites. The bottom line is I don't think a fair deal can be worked out until Thaksin and his family are gone from the picture. And I am not saying I think Yingluck will be forced from power. Like everybody else I don't know what's going to happen. But what I am saying is I hope she is gone soon. By the way, if you think Thaksin really cares about the poor downtrodden, I have some beachfront property in Belize I would like to sell you for ONLY 5% down.
Paul Kausch
02-05-14, 05:25
The 800 billion baht figure in the Bangkok Post super anti government write up effectively values all the rice at zero. Only looking at purchase price and not the value of selling it.
As ever, the media is deliberately putting out misleading propaganda to support the PDRC / Elite.The Bangkok Post frequently runs editorials critical of the PDRC, the most recent of these is in today's online edition. Browse the archives of recent editorials and you will find many more that are critical of Suthep and his actions. I believe it is clear the Post thinks the Shinawatras and their cronies are a bunch of crooks, but it is also clear the Post does not support the actions of Suthep and his protesters.
The 700 billion baht figure is not a number the Bangkok Post invented. It is the amount of money the government has actually borrowed, at 3% interest, to pay for the rice program to date. The taxpayers are currently paying 21 billion baht a year in interest servicing this debt. The government paid 40% above the market for the rice. Stored rice deteriorates over time and lose 10% in value every year it is in storage. Some of the rice has been held for over two years. The government will be hard pressed to sell it at 50% of what it paid for the rice; and if they dump it on the market, which is what the rice farmers are pressuring them to do, it will drive prices down further, which will add to the loses. Under any scenario the taxpayers will be stuck with most of that 700 billion baht of debt; and if the rice scheme continues this debt will increase not decrease; and it is certain future debt will be at more than 3%, perhaps substantially more. Thailand's economy is a small fraction the size of the EU. Project these numbers out a few years and the debt service becomes enormous, eventually taking up so much of the budget there will be little money for infra-structure, education, health care and other critical government services.
The government has sold little if any of the rice to date; and it will not disclose how much has been sold, the amounts of the proceeds from rice sales and the current rice inventories. It is widely believed by people in the rice trade community and others trade groups that the Shinawatras and their cronies took large kickbacks from what little rice has been sold, which is why they refuse to disclose details on sales and inventories. The rice trade community has long believed the imminent G2G rice sales the government claimed to have been working on were fake. Yesterday the Thai and Chinese regional government announced the rice deal they were working on will not be consummated. The trade community believes the government had to announce this because it is scared of the corruption investigations and is scrambling to cover up the evidence. Also, it is curious that the Chinese province that allegedly was going to buy the rice only buys short grain rice as that is what the locals consume, yet the rice they supposedly were buying in this deal was to be long grain rice, which is one of several reasons why the rice trade community never believed the deal was real.
The rice scheme was conceived as a way to "buy" votes, win elections, steal huge sums of money and saddle the taxpayers with ruinous amounts of debt. The consensus opinion of Thai economists is that if these policies continue the country will be bankrupt in a few years.
It is beyond me how any sane person can defend the Shinawatras and Pheu Thai. This does not mean I support Suthep and the PDRC. My sympathies are with the segment of the population that is sick of the corruption, genuinely scared about the country's future and wants the country to be rid of the Shinawatras and Pheu Thai.
Paul Kausch
02-05-14, 05:38
And now the rice farmers are saying if they are not paid by 12 February thy will descend on Bangkok and begin demonstrations.
Hi guys, I am planning to travel to Bangkok on 10th Feb for 5 nights. I want to know how safe it is right now to travel to Bangkok and Pattaya for an Indian travelling there first time. Also please let me know if the club's alcohol and women all will be openRight now it is 100 percent safe, but according to wikiteenia only 99. 9 percent for first time Indian. I expect the same will hold true for Valentine's day.
And, yes, all women will be open. But between their legs only for you, lover boy.
And now the rice farmers are saying if they are not paid by 12 February thy will descend on Bangkok and begin demonstrations.But please note.
The demonstrations are to get payment.
They are not anti-government demonstrations.
The farmers blame the PDRC and their backers for stopping the government from being able to raise the money to pay them, so they are just demanding their money.
The Bangkok Post frequently runs editorials critical of the PDRC, the most recent of these is in today's online edition. Browse the archives of recent editorials and you will find many more that are critical of Suthep and his actions. I believe it is clear the Post thinks the Shinawatras and their cronies are a bunch of crooks, but it is also clear the Post does not support the actions of Suthep and his protesters.
The 700 billion baht figure is not a number the Bangkok Post invented. It is the amount of money the government has actually borrowed, at 3% interest, to pay for the rice program to date. The taxpayers are currently paying 21 billion baht a year in interest servicing this debt. The government paid 40% above the market for the rice. Stored rice deteriorates over time and lose 10% in value every year it is in storage. Some of the rice has been held for over two years. The government will be hard pressed to sell it at 50% of what it paid for the rice; and if they dump it on the market, which is what the rice farmers are pressuring them to do, it will drive prices down further, which will add to the loses. Under any scenario the taxpayers will be stuck with most of that 700 billion baht of debt; and if the rice scheme continues this debt will increase not decrease; and it is certain future debt will be at more than 3, perhaps substantially more. Thailand's economy is a small fraction the size of the EU...The Bangkok Post occasionally runs stories against the PDRC if they do something really stupid, they have to, would be suicide if they did not criticise the really stupid stuff.
If they dump the rice at 50% of what they paid then the scheme will have made a 350 billion baht loss. 350 billion baht spread across the millions of farmers who have benefited from it is very little.
Abhisit ""lost" 117 billion baht with his "vote buying" in 2009.
http://news.asiaone.com/News/Latest%2BNews / Asia / Story / A1Story20090208-120350. Html.
Just handed cash out to people and called it "economic stimulus". This was blatentvote buying.
So Abhisit spent 117 billion on his vote buying for a few hundred thousand peoples benefit.
YingLuck has spent 350 billion baht (worst case) on her vote buying as you call it for millions of people.
Seems about right.
The difference is of course the Abhisit vote buying went to Bangkok people mostly. YL vote buying has gone to many many in the North and North East.
But then its not really vote buying is it, its simply government policy. All governments around the world run similar schemes to give free money and free benefits to people. Its called winning voters around the world, in Thailand its called stimulus if you are Abhisit and its going to Bangkok people, and if you are YL and its not going to Bangkok people its called vote buying.
Reading the bottom of that article, the PAD shutting the airport in 2008 cost Thailand 290 billion baht, around the same as the rice scheme will cost the country after all the rice is sold. However the rice scheme has benefitted millions, the airport shut down benefited just a few people to get Abhisit into power.
Ralph Kramden
02-05-14, 14:15
And now the rice farmers are saying if they are not paid by 12 February thy will descend on Bangkok and begin demonstrations.That is good news because I didn't book an airline ticket from Japan for March because I was unsure of the situation. After the election went fairly smoothly Thai Airways doubled the prices. This might cause a lowering of prices back to sensible numbers.
Paul Kausch
02-06-14, 08:14
According to the Thai Rice Exporters Association the government is now trying to sell 5% broken white rice at US$370 a metric ton in a desperate effort to generate cash to make a partial payment to rice farmers. That is the price this grade of rice was selling for at the end of 2007! The current market price for 5% broken white rice is US$456. The government would have to sell at over US$675 to cover the cost of the rice scheme. This is what industry observers feared. The government will hold a fire sale and dump the rice on the market, increasing the already staggering costs of the program to taxpayers. The only way the government can get attractive prices for its stockpiles is to drastically cut current and future production and gradually sell rice over about a five-year period. Of course cutting current and future production means the rice farmers will grow less rice and make less money while they wait for payment on monies past due. The current crop will soon be harvested and the farmers need money to plant the next crop. Money they don't have. The rice scheme has been a financial disaster for the rice farmers, the country and the taxpayers, though it is widely believed by people in the various rice trade groups that the Shinawatras and their cronies have profited handsomely from the program.
Franciscass
02-06-14, 10:04
That is good news because I didn't book an airline ticket from Japan for March because I was unsure of the situation. After the election went fairly smoothly Thai Airways doubled the prices. This might cause a lowering of prices back to sensible numbers.An enjoyable consequence of the "shut down" is the amount of music one gets to hear. Listened to a great folk ensemble at the Asoke stage on Tuesday and some great bands at the ad hoc weekend stage at Chit Lom.
Um. You weren't in Thailand during his regime, were you? His was a socially conservative agenda (as is normal in democracies, particularly those with female suffrage) , and he was trying to gradually remove foreigners, make long-stays and retirement more difficult, and close sex-related business and reduce sex tourism. All the things the sex tourist likes about Thailand are related to the happy feudalism, not these neo-liberal democratizers.Apart from easy cheap abundant pussy, what are these "things the sex tourist likes about Thailand"?
I've been in Thailand much of the time during Thaksin's puppet regimes, including but not limited to the past 2 and a half years via his sister Yingluck. Is there one iota of evidence that in the past 30 months the TS "regime" has in even a single case "closed sex-related business" in Siam? How many new ones opened? Any johns been busted, or is it business as usual.
TS regimes have been in power most of the time since 2001. If he was trying to "gradually remove foreigners" & "reduce sex tourism", he did a [CodeWord140] (http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord140) poor job of it, as the numbers have continually skyrocketed over that period. If there were X number of sex tourists in 2001, it was probably more like 3X by 2013.
Do you consider LOS being flooded with foreigners or sex tourists a good thing for you, personally? I find the low seasons to be way better than the high. Less foreigners means less competition so more of my regular girls are free & begging to see me.
As to making "long-stays and retirement more difficult", perhaps you refer to doubling the amount required to obtain the retirement visa. The aim & result may be to weed out "lower quality" types & increase the capital that the rest bring in, in much the same way that Singapore has been operating. I'd say they have the right idea for Thailand as it is now. A new country ruled by TS in the North might call for a different gameplan, at least in the short run until they steal BKK's tourism & got the ball rolling. People with power or money rather than morals as their primary motive are willing to adapt their "agendas" to suit the situation as it changes in order to meet their goal. What category do you think TS falls into?
Is Thailand what you'ld call a democracy. So-called democracies come in many flavors, from the USA to Singapore to Laos & the DPRK. The latter 2 are actually communist & SG has been called a police state. Do you think the poontang environment is better in Thailand or communist countries like Vietnam & the People's Republic of China? How would it be under Suthep's non elected "People's Reform Council"? Suthep BTW has stated he has no respect for foreigners.
Is TS living offshore with his wife he divored in 2008. Restricting himself to Playboy magazine & cold showers? Or enjoying some Thai & foreign dishes in Dubai. Recently his mug was shot in Northern Europe sandwiched inbetween two babes.
According to the Thai Rice Exporters Association the government is now trying to sell 5% broken white rice at US$370 a metric ton in a desperate effort to generate cash to make a partial payment to rice farmers. That is the price this grade of rice was selling for at the end of 2007! The current market price for 5% broken white rice is US$456. The government would have to sell at over US$675 to cover the cost of the rice scheme. This is what industry observers feared. The government will hold a fire sale and dump the rice on the market, increasing the already staggering costs of the program to taxpayers. The only way the government can get attractive prices for its stockpiles is to drastically cut current and future production and gradually sell rice over about a five-year period. Of course cutting current and future production means the rice farmers will grow less rice and make less money while they wait for payment on monies past due. The current crop will soon be harvested and the farmers need money to plant the next crop. Money they don't have. The rice scheme has been a financial disaster for the rice farmers, the country and the taxpayers, though it is widely believed by people in the various rice trade groups that the Shinawatras and their cronies have profited handsomely from the program.How can you increase the cost?
You have already said that its cost 700 Billion Baht and all the rice is in storage.
So if the rice is never sold the scheme cost the headline 700 Billion you are talking about.
If they sell the rice the headline 700 Billion now falls. To 350 Billion or 300 Billion. It cannot increase, everyone is already using worst case rice is worthless figures, so anything its sold for now, even half the price they paid for it, will reduce the budget deficit of this project.
It is a rice subsidy, just like in the rest of the world where governments put in direct agricultural subsidies (free money to farmers / traders by buying at higher than market price, or paying a large amount of the costs).
You seem to think this is the first harvest?
Did you know the rice farmers have already had multiple harvests under the scheme and made loads of money. That this harvest is for some only, not all, not yet paid for is an annoyance for them, but they have made tonnes of money out of the previous harvests in the past years.
You seem to avoid the issue that every government in the world, including the USA and EU,"lose money" (better know as running a budget deficit) by pumping cash into agriculture by way of direct subsidies. Are you saying every government in the world is vote buying?
Member #4698
02-06-14, 15:17
There is an interesting report in the Wall Street Journal about the Thai government's failed attempt to corner the rice market and "Payment Delays by Government Leave Farmers Deep in Debt"
http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424052702304428004579352590377530118?mod=
%3C%25mst. Param%28LINKMODPREFIX%29.
In the report the writer explains how this attempt was implemented, it's short term success, and the reason why it ultimately failed. The bottom line now is that the rice farmers are not getting paid for their crops, they are getting desperate, and Thailand has lost billions of dollars [up to 12 billion] on this foolish price fixing scheme. Anybody remember the Hunt Brothers?
Still "Ms. Yingluck has defended the rice subsidy, saying that it has helped increase rural incomes, while her government blames protesters for causing the delays in payments to farmers."
But "Thailand's anticorruption agency, which has broad powers to probe mismanagement as well as corruption, is now fast-tracking an investigation that could lead to Ms. Yingluck being impeached for allegedly ignoring the scale of the losses caused by the rice program. If that occurs, she could be sent for trial in the Senate, a process that could lead to her dismissal."
This issue is not going away.
Member #4698
02-06-14, 15:34
The rice scheme has been a financial disaster for the rice farmers, the country and the taxpayers, though it is widely believed by people in the various rice trade groups that the Shinawatras and their cronies have profited handsomely from the program.Prime Minister Yingluck Shinawatra launched her market cornering scheme to ostensibly shift more cash into the rural economy by buying up rice from farmers at about 18, 000 baht, or $550, a ton, around 50% higher than the then prevailing market rate. If Thaksan knew a head of time [and of course he knew] what the government was going to do and he bought Rice Futures, he would have made a fortune. The question is was he smart enough to get out and take his profits before the bubble burst or did he think the scheme would actually work and Thailand could corner the world market. Global prices soared from $300 a ton to a peak above $900 a ton, but have subsequently crashed to around the $450 a ton level as more world wide supply became available. It is a question of Hubris. Crash and burn is a favorite saying in the commodity trading pits.
In any case, if Thaksin and his pals bought large quantities of Rice Futures before the Thai Government announced it's subsidy program, there are financial records to substantiate this and this becomes a classic case of insider trading and price manipulation. If this is true then Thaksin is in a whole lot of new trouble that he can't run away from. This is getting very interesting. Stay tuned in for more goodies as the situation develops.
Paul Kausch
02-06-14, 17:10
How can you increase the cost?The government purchases rice at 40-50% above market price. When it sells the rice it loses money. As long as this policy of buying rice at more than its market value continues the loses will grow. The government will borrow more money in the future to finance these loses.
Did you know the rice farmers have already had multiple harvests under the scheme and made loads of money.The money the rice farmers have received was not generated by rice sales. The government borrowed the money. Buying high and selling low, which is what happens with the rice scheme, results in loses. Money must be borrowed to cover the loses. As long as the loses continue, the borrowing will continue.
You seem to avoid the issue that every government in the world, including the USA and EU,"lose money" (better know as running a budget deficit) by pumping cash into agriculture by way of direct subsidies.Habitual budget deficits is a growing problem among developed nations. The growing budget deficit and run away government spending have been major political issues in the USA for sometime. It lead to the creation of the Wacko Bird Tea Party in the USA.
Are you saying every government in the world is vote buying?Yes, social welfare programs, special subsidies and tax credits for certain industries, pork barrel projects, they are ways governments buy votes or pay back campaign contributions.
My attitudes are very ecumenical. I think Yingluck is a crook, as is Suthep, Obama (a Democrat), John Boehner (he's the Speaker of the House in the USA, a Republican and second in the presidential line of succession). There are a few relatively corruption free government in the world - Singapore, New Zealand and Norway to name a few, but generally politics and corruption go hand in hand.
Policics and corruption go hand and hand. Most politicans that I am aware of are lawyers. You know the old joke about " how can you tell when a lawyer is lying? He is moving his lips". You are very correct in your assessment. Wacko tea party, correct again. Vote buying is known as subsidies or exceptions in the law making process.
Who was it that said ' power corrupts and absolute power corrupts, absolutely.
Paul Kausch
02-06-14, 19:34
Who was it that said ' power corrupts and absolute power corrupts, absolutely.The complete statement was: "Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Great men are almost always bad men."
It is attributed to John Emerich Edward Dalberg, 1st Baron Acton (1834–1902), in a letter written on 3 April 1887 to Bishop Mandell Creighton.
Wolvenvacht
02-06-14, 22:01
There are a few relatively corruption free government in the world - Singapore, New Zealand and Norway to name a few, but generally politics and corruption go hand in hand.Dream on about S'Pore being corruption free. Monetary corruption, sure. But to get things done, it helps to have a good access to the ruling families. Network is everything. The ruling families will not ask for money outright, but they remember favors given and will call in any "moral" debt as they feel like it. This may be in the form of a profitable business deal or anything else they fancy.
Paul Kausch
02-06-14, 22:14
Dream on about S'Pore being corruption free. I didn't write Singapore is corruption free. According to Transparency International, out of 177 countries the ten least corrupt nations are: tied for #1 Denmark and New Zealand, tied for #3 Finland and Sweden, tied for #5 Norway and Singapore, #7 Switzerland, #8 Netherlands and tied for #9 Australia and Canada. The USA is #19; Thailand ranks #102; and Belgium is #15. ;)
Apart from easy cheap abundant pussy, what are these "things the sex tourist likes about Thailand"?
Tolerance, privacy, honesty, realism, etc. You'll never see genuine freedom under democracy - a million little dictators right next door. What you want is a remote disinterested potentate.
I've been in Thailand much of the time during Thaksin's puppet regimes,
I was of course referring to when the man was prime minister in his own right, from 1999-2006. That is when you saw his true agenda. Since his ouster by the wonderful coup d'etat of 2006, any succeeding 'puppet' governments have been very tame compared to those prior to that happy chastening.
Is Thailand what you'ld call a democracy. So-called democracies come in many flavors, from the USA to Singapore to Laos & the DPRK. The latter 2 are actually communist & SG has been called a police state.
It would be absurd to call any of those democracies other than the USA. Of course I fled that Bad Place years ago and wish to avoid ever returning. Liberal Western democracy is what I want to avoid.
Suthep BTW has stated he has no respect for foreigners.
Smart man.
Take a read of this. Nail on the head stuff?
http://asiapacific.anu.edu.au/newmandala/2014/02/07/the-weakness-of-the-thai-royalists/
Take a read of this. Nail on the head stuff?
http://asiapacific.anu.edu.au/newmandala/2014/02/07/the-weakness-of-the-thai-royalists/
Terribly discouraging, Pro. But I have to admit the pessimist in me finds it easy to believe that gloom-and-doom take. In fact I marvel that the wonderful old Ancien Régime lasted long enough for me to have the privilege of witnessing it first hand.
However - who knows. The writer of that sad epitaph you linked is of course a mere foreigner, and thus may not (one may hope) truly understand.
FruitNinja
02-07-14, 18:26
But has there been much disruption of the mongering scene in BKK. Nobody seems to be talking about this on either forum. I'm scheduled to fly out of BKK in early April and was hoping to stay a week in town and make all the usual runs. If things look bad I will just fly to Pattaya, stay there, and then get a drop of at the airport.
Thanks,
Take a read of this. Nail on the head stuff?
http://asiapacific.anu.edu.au/newmandala/2014/02/07/the-weakness-of-the-thai-royalists/Yep, bullseye!
IamJohnGalt
02-08-14, 05:36
. Are you saying every government in the world is vote buying?Based upon objective observation of the evidence, yes. (Somewhere there may be an exception, but I'm not aware of one.)
Some also control media to 'win' votes via propaganda.
Some kill their own people to instill fear and assure complacency in the populace, especially when wanting to impose unpopular programs or wage war.
(The coverup of the causes behind dustification of the WTC comes immediately to mind.)
IamJohnGalt
02-08-14, 05:43
I didn't write Singapore is corruption free. According to Transparency International, out of 177 countries the ten least corrupt nations are: tied for #1 Denmark and New Zealand, tied for #3 Finland and Sweden, tied for #5 Norway and Singapore, #7 Switzerland, #8 Netherlands and tied for #9 Australia and Canada. The USA is #19; Thailand ranks #102; and Belgium is #15. ;)It may be a relative measure of corruption, or it may be manipulated, too.
Having spent lots of time in NZ and Oz, and having freinds who have been the victims of corruption in NZ in particular, my opinion is that the studies are manipulated or are naive in their methods of analysis.
Just personal observation though.
IamJohnGalt
02-08-14, 05:46
Tolerance, privacy, honesty, realism, etc. You'll never see genuine freedom under democracy - a million little dictators right next door. What you want is a remote disinterested potentate.Pure Democracy is two wolves and a sheep deciding what is for dinner.
The US system of government is elected hyenas dividing the production of honest people on orders from the fractional reserve vultures.
Yep, bullseye!It was even right about China coming out to support PTP / Thaksin and no coup.
The official regime mouthpiece todays says China must discourage any coup in Thailand.
http://english.people.com.cn/90883/8529203.html
What the Peoples Daily prints is the official policy of the government.
Pointy Stick
02-08-14, 15:43
It may be a relative measure of corruption, or it may be manipulated, too.
Having spent lots of time in NZ and Oz, and having freinds who have been the victims of corruption in NZ in particular, my opinion is that the studies are manipulated or are naive in their methods of analysis.
Just personal observation though.I too have spend much time in both countries and no one I have meet nor my friends have been victims of any kind or corruption.
I looked at TI website and everyone contributor has their name published as well as declaring their pecuniary interest, affiliations and previous employments. Anyway, given this level of organisational transparency I don't think you could sensibly claim that their data has been manipulated unless actual proof have been provided. They are also very open about the metrics used. I was very surprised of the breadth of the topics they covered and the comprehensiveness of their publications.
Based upon objective observation of the evidence, yes. (Somewhere there may be an exception, but I'm not aware of one.)
Some also control media to 'win' votes via propaganda.
Some kill their own people to instill fear and assure complacency in the populace, especially when wanting to impose unpopular programs or wage war.
(The coverup of the causes behind dustification of the WTC comes immediately to mind.) 'Dustification': I had to look this one up. I loved the final comment on wikipedia: The whole theory is so absurd that another truther debunked it; ie even the mad men think it's mad. But hey, what do I know?
'Dustification': I had to look this one up. I loved the final comment on wikipedia: The whole theory is so absurd that another truther debunked it; ie even the mad men think it's mad. But hey, what do I know?
Mouse1 - little internet clue: poster has a name from Ayn Rand novel = don't read the post. Or at least don't respond to him. ;)
It was even right about China coming out to support PTP / Thaksin and no coup.
The official regime mouthpiece todays says China must discourage any coup in Thailand.
http://english.people.com.cn/90883/8529203.html
What the Peoples Daily prints is the official policy of the government.
Well of course China wishes to prevent a coup - with Thaksin they get control of Thailand. What boggles the mind is the American public line opposing the coup, given the general idea of containing China in Asia. Thailand is a pretty big domino to lose to Beijing. Unless they actually 'believe in democracy' :v
Paul Kausch
02-08-14, 18:19
Well of course China wishes to prevent a coup - with Thaksin they get control of Thailand. What boggles the mind is the American public line opposing the coup, given the general idea of containing China in Asia. Thailand is a pretty big domino to lose to Beijing. Unless they actually 'believe in democracy' :vChina may have some influence in Thailand with the Shinawatras in power, considering they are ethnic Chinese-Thais from Chiang Mai. However, pretty much across the board China opposes overthrowing governments. The idea of a popular revolution or challenges from another power center within the country is a scary notion for the party leadership. The brutal response to the protesters in Tiananmen Square in 1989 and the suppression and persecution of followers of Falun Gong are examples. Also, obedience to superiors is a central theme in Confucianism.
As for the USA, it seems to have a wacky foreign policy crafted by a bunch of inexperienced kids working for a man who was totally unprepared to assume the "highest office in the land." Old timers who have left the administration are starting to talk about this (e.g. William Gates recent book). An example is the USA's pushed for quick elections in Egypt even though it was obvious the Muslim Brotherhood would win; and once they won would do everything in their power to transform Egypt into a Sunni version of an Iranian style Islamic "Republic."
Also, I've also heard Thaksin has retained a Washington DC PR firm to lobby the politicians and media over here.
It's also possible Thaksin gives some of the Chicago commodity traders inside tips on when he will withhold and dump rice on the market. Remember the USA's commodities exchange is in Chicago, which is Barry O's home town. ;)
China may have some influence in Thailand with the Shinawatras in power, considering they are ethnic Chinese-Thais from Chiang Mai. However, pretty much across the board China opposes overthrowing governments. The idea of a popular revolution or challenges from another power center within the country is a scary notion for the party leadership. The brutal response to the protesters in Tiananmen Square in 1989 and the suppression and persecution of followers of Falun Gong are examples. Also, obedience to superiors is a central theme in Confucianism. If one were prioritizing continuity and Confucian hierarchy, the rightful rulers of Thailand are the ones who have been ruling it for hundreds of years, not the upstarts. If China were interested in supporting 'obedience to superiors' it would be advocating a coup. No, their stance is pure power grab.
As for the USA, it seems to have a wacky foreign policy crafted by a bunch of inexperienced kids working for a man who was totally unprepared to assume the "highest office in the land." Old timers who have left the administration are starting to talk about this (e.g. William Gates recent book). An example is the USA's pushed for quick elections in Egypt even though it was obvious the Muslim Brotherhood would win; and once they won would do everything in their power to transform Egypt into a Sunni version of an Iranian style Islamic "Republic."That said, they've done better than the disaster that preceded them, simply through relative inaction.
Mouse1. Little internet clue: poster has a name from Ayn Rand novel = don't read the post. Or at least don't respond to him. .
Well of course China wishes to prevent a coup. With Thaksin they get control of Thailand. What boggles the mind is the American public line opposing the coup, given the general idea of containing China in Asia. Thailand is a pretty big domino to lose to Beijing. Unless they actually 'believe in democracy' :vI assume you've read her novels? I'm not sure how Rand, and her doctrine of enlightened self-interest, has any bearing on wacky conspiracy theories. Please explain.
'Dustification': I had to look this one up. I loved the final comment on wikipedia: The whole theory is so absurd that another truther debunked it; ie even the mad men think it's mad. But hey, what do I know?I can't find anything in Wikipedia about this. Can you post a link? Maybe it's not in the English section.
I assume you've read her novels? I'm not sure how Rand, and her doctrine of enlightened self-interest, has any bearing on wacky conspiracy theories. Please explain.Perhaps its merely correlation, not causation. No offense meant.
Paul Kausch
02-08-14, 22:41
If one were prioritizing continuity and Confucian hierarchy, the rightful rulers of Thailand are the ones who have been ruling it for hundreds of years, not the upstarts. If China were interested in supporting 'obedience to superiors' it would be advocating a coup. No, their stance is pure power grab.
That said, they've done better than the disaster that preceded them, simply through relative inaction.I don't wish to start an argument. For all I know, you may be right about China's primary motivation. I'm not privy to Chinese foreign policy meetings. And Confucianism was created in the context of a dynastic monarchy and strict hierarchical social order. Modern democratic political systems don't fit into the Confucian socio-political order. But while in specific cases China may support an opposition movement if that movement serves its national interests, anyone who observes Chinese foreign policy can see in general China supports whomever rules any particular country and is absolutely opposed to any popular movement intending to reform or overthrow an existing government. Obviously, the Chinese Communist Party doesn't want its vassals to get any ideas about reforming China and rooting out the rampant corruption.
W was (is) brain damaged from years of alcohol and cocaine abuse, and his VP and first Sec of Defense should have been charged with high treason. That is probably worse than general incompetence.
Paul Kausch
02-08-14, 22:49
I assume you've read her novels? I'm not sure how Rand, and her doctrine of enlightened self-interest, has any bearing on wacky conspiracy theories. Please explain.
Perhaps its merely correlation, not causation. No offense meant.I don't mind foolishly wading into this one. I'd characterize Rand's writings as fodder for juveniles that has inspired a lot of wacky people in the USA.
Paul Kausch
02-08-14, 23:19
An unnamed rice farmers' leader has given the government an ultimatum: bring 18 million tonnes of rice out of its stockpiles; separate the good rice from the rotted rice and sell it. This would generate about 100 billion baht in revenue, all of which is to be given to the rice farmers. That is enough to cover a little over 80% of the monies the government owes the rice farmers. Of course this will mean the citizens of Thailand will incur massive loses. Surprise, surprise!
More interestingly, the spokes person goes on to say that if the government isn't prepared to do this immediately, it should resign and get out of town. He then added that rice farmers from across the country will be descending on Bangkok over the next few days to make their demands to the government clear.
No wonder Yingluck has asked the military for additional security. It's not the opposition she's afraid of. A nice penthouse in Dubai may be looking very attractive to her. ;)
IamJohnGalt
02-09-14, 08:45
Perhaps its merely correlation, not causation. No offense meant.I'd love to see the data for that correlation. I suspect it's an opinion instead.
IamJohnGalt
02-09-14, 09:09
I can't find anything in Wikipedia about this. Can you post a link? Maybe it's not in the English section.It isn't in wikipedia. Its in rational wiki, which claims to exist to refute pseudoscience but makes no attempt at analysis of dustification whatsoever. Instead they cite a rebuttal from James Gourley, an IP lawyer who bases his critique on the lack of definitive seismic data. Rationalwiki just believes the government's conspiracy theory about 9-11 and doesn't apparently care to actually investigate anything. They don't even proof read the spelling on their site. As for Gourley's rebuttal, he has no training in the area of his critique, but in his defense the dustification theory is pretty extreme.
IamJohnGalt
02-09-14, 09:27
I don't mind foolishly wading into this one. I'd characterize Rand's writings as fodder for juveniles that has inspired a lot of wacky people in the USA.Anytime you have millions of people reading a book there will be some wacky ones in the readership.
At least there aren't many in costume on Halloween; )
I don't mind foolishly wading into this one. I'd characterize Rand's writings as fodder for juveniles that has inspired a lot of wacky people in the USA.I suppose you prefer the writings of committed statist's such as Immanuel Kant and Karl Marks then?
Wolvenvacht
02-09-14, 10:29
An unnamed rice farmers' leader has given the government an ultimatum: bring 18 million tonnes of rice out of its stockpiles; separate the good rice from the rotted rice and sell it. This would generate about 100 billion baht in revenue, all of which is to be given to the rice farmers. That is enough to cover a little over 80% of the monies the government owes the rice farmers. Of course this will mean the citizens of Thailand will incur massive loses. Surprise, surprise!In that the Thai Government is following the strategy of the major banks of this world who still carry billions of USD of "toxic" or devalued paper on their books, but cannot sell any of them as this would immediately bankrupt them.
Paul Kausch
02-09-14, 10:39
I suppose you prefer the writings of committed statist's such as Immanuel Kant and Karl Marks then?These are just my opinions.
Karl Marx was a lousy economists who wrote about a silly utopia. Immanuel Kant was brilliant. His Critique of Pure Reason is one of the most important philosophical works ever written. I haven't read his second and third critiques.
Statism can range from minarchism to totalitarianism. I'd say something along that continue, much closer the former than the later, seems like a good way to organize and run a society.
Reiner Otto
02-09-14, 10:52
Karl Marx was a lousy economistsObviously, his prognosis of the concentration of money in the hands of fewer and fewer individuals proofes to be correct.
In the USA, and in Germany as well.
Paul Kausch
02-09-14, 10:55
In that the Thai Government is following the strategy of the major banks of this world who still carry billions of USD of "toxic" or devalued paper on their books, but cannot sell any of them as this would immediately bankrupt them.Funny you should bring that up. I've wondered why people in the USA get upset about all the paper China and other countries hold. As you point out they, and not the USA, are the ones who are fucked. What are they going to do? Sell it? And China in particular has no alternative but to continue to buy it. Though they are carefully trying to wean themselves from it. And while we're on the topic, do you remember what happened when the credit worthiness of the USA was downgraded? The interest rates on treasuries dropped! It's a mad, mad world.
Paul Kausch
02-09-14, 10:59
Obviously, his prognosis of the concentration of money in the hands of fewer and fewer individuals proofes to be correct.
In the USA, and in Germany as well.And religion is a drug. But isn't that obvious. Is money as concentrated today as it was 100 or 200 years ago?
Wolvenvacht
02-09-14, 11:05
Funny you should bring that up. I've wondered why people in the USA get upset about all the paper China and other countries hold. As you point out they, and not the USA, are the ones who are fucked. What are they going to do? Sell it? And China in particular has no alternative but to continue to buy it. Though they are carefully trying to wean themselves from it. And while we're on the topic, do you remember what happened when the credit worthiness of the USA was downgraded? The interest rates on treasuries dropped! It's a mad, mad world.I have long stopped believing in or even listening to financial experts and economy consultants. They are no better than self-styled prophets of some of the more wacky theologies that abound (actually all theologies are wacky). None of the rating bureaus predicted the financial meltdown. Companies like AIG had a triple A rating when they had to be rescued by the government.
These are just my opinions.
Karl Marx was a lousy economists who wrote about a silly utopia. Immanuel Kant was brilliant. His Critique of Pure Reason Is one of the most important philosophical works ever written. I haven't read his second and third critiques.
Statism can range from minarchism to totalitarianism. I'd say something along that continue, much closer the former than the later, seems like a good way to organize and run a society.Speaking for myself, I'd much rather that human beings be left alone to run themselves rather than having statist authorities attempt to "organize and run society." Kant would not agree with that, and I suspect neither would you.
I think Ann Rand got it right. Don't understand exactly what you find "juvenile" about her philosophy.
Wolvenvacht
02-09-14, 12:59
Speaking for myself, I'd much rather that human beings be left alone to run themselves rather than having statist authorities attempt to "organize and run society." Kant would not agree with that, and I suspect neither would you.
I think Ann Rand got it right. Don't understand exactly what you find "juvenile" about her philosophy.Just my 0. 02 USD: Ayn Rand's "Objectivism" sounds good but only because it has never been put into practice. Marxism, Kantism liberalism and whatever other.isms that exist sounds equally good on paper (I make exceptions for Leninism, Catholicism and other fundamental-isms: those sound bad on paper already). It is a pity no philosophy survives contact with reality. Even my beloved Buddhism can turn ugly when abused for political reasons.
What about monger-ism? That hurts nobody, does it? And provides happiness for all involved.
IamJohnGalt
02-09-14, 13:56
I have long stopped believing in or even listening to financial experts and economy consultants. They are no better than self-styled prophets of some of the more wacky theologies that abound (actually all theologies are wacky). None of the rating bureaus predicted the financial meltdown. Companies like AIG had a triple A rating when they had to be rescued by the government.The rating bureaus had a vested interest in keeping it a secret, as they were making a fortune helping promote the worst investments offered by the banksters.
An unnamed rice farmers' leader has given the government an ultimatum: bring 18 million tonnes of rice out of its stockpiles; separate the good rice from the rotted rice and sell it. This would generate about 100 billion baht in revenue, all of which is to be given to the rice farmers. That is enough to cover a little over 80% of the monies the government owes the rice farmers. Of course this will mean the citizens of Thailand will incur massive loses. Surprise, surprise!
More interestingly, the spokes person goes on to say that if the government isn't prepared to do this immediately, it should resign and get out of town. He then added that rice farmers from across the country will be descending on Bangkok over the next few days to make their demands to the government clear.
No wonder Yingluck has asked the military for additional security. It's not the opposition she's afraid of. A nice penthouse in Dubai may be looking very attractive to her..I am still lost as to why you talk about citizens losses.
As I have said, the USA deficit rises every second, every minute, every hour. The USA citizens losses rise as that deficit rises. And yet you make no mention of things like this, or that most countries in the world run a budget deficit.
Why is it such a big issue if Thailand, due to its rice subsidy, runs a loss on the rice scheme?
You have not explained why its acceptable for the USA and many other countries to run "losses" as you say, as they are spending too much on their own subsidies, welfare systems, military etc. And here you are bemoaning Thailand for running a loss on one scheme.
Paul Kausch
02-10-14, 04:30
Speaking for myself, I'd much rather that human beings be left alone to run themselves rather than having statist authorities attempt to "organize and run society." Kant would not agree with that, and I suspect neither would you.
I think Ann Rand got it right. Don't understand exactly what you find "juvenile" about her philosophy.On matters such as these my opinions aren't even worth 2 cents, but here goes. I think her vision of the perfect world is an adolescent's dream. I think in practice it would result in a dystopia that is orders of magnitudes worse than the world the book's actors lived in. And either world can only be found in a work of fiction. The right wing of the Republican Party in the USA, which is where you're most likely to find fans of Atlas Shrugged, is the resurrection of the old Dixiecrat Party. States that rant against intervention into their affairs by the Federal Government are the ones who are trying to limit a woman's reproductive rights, replace science with religion in the schools and disenfranchise people. I believe wealthy people and private institutions who want less government are motivated by the desire to undermine the only institutions powerful enough to thwart the exercise of their immense power to lie, cheat, steal and exploit people. I don't mean to ruffle anyone's feathers. If anyone can name a place that is even a near perfect version of Rand's perfect world, let me know, I'm on my way! I think there are many wonderful works of fiction that illustrate important points about society and the human condition. I think anyone who seriously believes he or she has the intellect to create a world that could really be that is better than the world we have is either an egomaniac or a complete fool, and should never be trusted.
IamJohnGalt
02-10-14, 05:24
I think anyone who seriously believes he or she has the intellect to create a world that could really be that is better than the world we have is either an egomaniac or a complete fool, and should never be trusted.Lots of these in the Dark Center.
I think Rand was affected by her experience living under the soviets, and had a naive trust for business leaders as a result. However in defense of some of her ideas, the worst offenders in business always seem to be the ones who have arranged to receive some government awarded advantage, e.g., the banking 'industry' which produces nothing except wealth and power for themselves and misery for others. Centralization of power is the biggest problem whether in government or business. The world appears to be uncontrollably cartwheeling toward more centralization and a single currency with people like those you described in control.
We are witnessing a protest, these days, led and funded by the Royal Elite Network in Bangkok. It is nothing, but a conflict over royal succession. The regent has only a limited number of days to go. Yet, the next heir is not appointed to the throne. This is a very strange and bizarre situation in a modern monarchy.
Three institutions need to approve the next king. The Royal Privy Council, The Military and The Parliament. This according to the constitution.
The protesters want reform before election, so that they can get control over the parliament at the next crossroad.
It is of utmost importance for the protesting Royal Elite Network, that the Thaksins do not remain in power at the moment of succession. It is not a big secret, that one of the heirs in line, – a Royal Highness and close friend is funded by Thaksin. And this, will probably be the safest way back to Thailand, for the now ousted ex prime minister. If that would be the case, we could experience a governing alliance in the foreseeable future, with another royal network in place, where the present yellow shades are replaced by the future's deep red, and with Thaksin Shinawatra at the helm.
No surprise there is such a desperate need for a non democratic reform process. The entire Royal Elite Network can say goodbye to their present social and economic positions, if that alliance is brought to power.
Paul Kausch
02-10-14, 07:50
I think Rand was affected by her experience living under the soviets, and had a naive trust for business leaders as a result.Well, that clarifies which she was.
Generally governments and the politicians are owned by and works for the rich and powerful. The solution is not to give them more latitude to operate. The fascination some ordinary people have with libertarianism is amusing. The people behind it are using you to achieve their ends.
I think her vision of the perfect world is an adolescent's dream. I think in practice it would result in a dystopia that is orders of magnitudes worse than the world the book's actors lived in. And either world can only be found in a work of fiction.You must also believe then that Thomas Jefferson's Declaration of Independence was "an adolescent's dream." But, of course, that is not a work of fiction, is it? There is something about the concept of individual liberty that irritates statists who want the government to control individuals for the ostensible "greater good" of society. That is what Rand's philosophy debunks.
The right wing of the Republican Party in the USA, which is where you're most likely to find fans of Atlas Shrugged, is the resurrection of the old Dixiecrat Party. States that rant against intervention into their affairs by the Federal Government are the ones who are trying to limit a woman's reproductive rights, replace science with religion in the schools and disenfranchise people.Nothing could be further from the truth. It's the Libertarian party which comes closest to embracing Rand's philosophy. Right wing Republicans are statist bastards who want government religion and control of politics and morality. The Libertarians simply desire liberty. What is disenfranchising about liberty?
I believe wealthy people and private institutions who want less government are motivated by the desire to undermine the only institutions powerful enough to thwart the exercise of their immense power to lie, cheat, steal and exploit people.You are talking about dishonest business people here and that includes those in collusion with the statists in government. No disagreement from me on this point.
If anyone can name a place that is even a near perfect version of Rand's perfect world, let me know, I'm on my way!The original concept of the United States of America, as set forth in the aforementioned Declaration of Independence, Constitution and Bill of Rights, while no where near perfect, comes closest to Rand's ideas.
I think there are many wonderful works of fiction that illustrate important points about society and the human condition. I think anyone who seriously believes he or she has the intellect to create a world that could really be that is better than the world we have is either an egomaniac or a complete fool, and should never be trusted.I'm not trying to create anything, and neither was Ann Rand. I'm just a peaceful honest person in this world who simply wants the governments to leave me alone except to protect, preserve and uphold mine and other's individual rights, which is the only legitimate purpose of governments.
Paul Kausch
02-10-14, 08:18
You must also believe then that Thomas Jefferson's Declaration of Independence was "an adolescent's dream."
Snip.
I'm just a peaceful honest person in this world who simply wants the governments to leave me alone except to protect, preserve and uphold mine and other's individual rights, which is the only legitimate purpose of governments.Daddy, I think if we were to meet we might argue for a long time until we realized we are in total agreement.
I think the U.S. Constitution is a darn good political document. At the time it was written there were a couple of problems with it, for example slavery. These were fixed with various amendments. Don't forget, the Bill of Rights are the first ten amendments to the Constitution. They were not in the original document. The U.S. Constitution was largely based on John Locke's writings. Locke was brilliant!
I don't see the U.S. Constitution as utopian. I think it is an attempt to create a republican government based on some very noble human rights principles. It is a very pragmatic document. Unfortunately, it didn't take long for smart, ambitious men who had and wanted more wealth and power to use it to their advantage. How do you thwart these people? By allowing them to strip away the rules and regulations that limit their power? This is what they want; but they do not have your best interests at heart. The Koch brothers and others who are the power and money behind the Tea Party and today's conservative movement are not friends of the common people.
I admit this is a bit of a stretch, but in a effort to get the thread back onto Thailand Politics, I can see some similarities between Pheu Thai and the Democratic Party in the USA and the PDRC and the Republican Party.
Daddy, I think if we were to meet we might argue for a long time until we realized we are in total agreement.Perhaps we can agree on this one simple point: To all the dishonest, grasping, anal retentive, statist left and right wing bastards out there: Get your fucking hand out of my pocket and your miserable religion out of my face.
Peace, Daddy
Daddy, I think if we were to meet we might argue for a long time until we realized we are in total agreement.
I think the USA Constitution is a darn good political document. At the time it was written there were a couple of problems with it, for example slavery. These were fixed with various amendments. Don't forget, the Bill of Rights are the first ten amendments to the Constitution. They were not in the original document. The USA Constitution was largely based on John Locke's writings. Locke was brilliant!
I don't see the USA Constitution as utopian. I think it is an attempt to create a republican government based on some very noble human rights principles. It is a very pragmatic document. Unfortunately, it didn't take long for smart, ambitious men who had and wanted more wealth and power to use it to their advantage. How do you thwart these people? By allowing them to strip away the rules and regulations that limit their power? This is what they want; but they do not have your best interests at heart. The Koch brothers and others who are the power and money behind the Tea Party and today's conservative movement are not friends of the common people.
I admit this is a bit of a stretch, but in a effort to get the thread back onto Thailand Politics, I can see some similarities between Pheu Thai and the Democratic Party in the USA and the PDRC and the Republican Party.But may I remind you that the majority of the "founding fathers" were rich landowners. Their goal was to keep everything they had, not share, and ensure their way of life. They also allowed humans to own other humans at a time when Europe had pretty much done away with slavery. You also had to own land to vote.
The US was controlled by this Southern block until after the civil war. From then till the mid-70s the industrial north called the shots and the US made real progress in the way of human and labor rights. If Roosevelt would lived we would have seen the US propelled into a far better place to live for all. Sadly in the mid-70s the Southerners got hold of things again and it has been a backwards walk ever since.
Paul Kausch
02-10-14, 10:15
Peace, DaddyPeace to you.
Paul Kausch
02-10-14, 10:25
But may I remind you that the majority of the "founding fathers" were rich landowners.The Constitution with its amendments is quite a departure and a significant improvement on the original document: the additions of the Bill of Rights, the abolition of slavery, universal suffrage, etc.
Sadly in the mid-70s the Southerners got hold of things again and it has been a backwards walk ever since.I think I deleted a few sentences from an earlier post in which I compared the conservative wing of today's Republican Party to the Dixiecrats. I think the resurgence of the South's influence in national politics started in the late Sixties with George Wallace's Presidential Campaigns and Richard Nixon's courting of the Southern politicians. If you look at the demographic profile of people who voted for Wallace in 1968 and today's Tea Party they are very similar.
Paul Kausch
02-10-14, 10:46
As over a thousand people waited outside, thirty rice farmers quickly ended a meeting with government officials say no progress was being made. Then Kittisak Ratanawarahal, president of the Network for Northern Farmers announced the rice farmers are going to seize rice in government warehouses. He went on to say,"The government can't swindle us anymore." You can't fool all the people all the time. Now the rice farmers see what crooks the Shinawatras and Pheu Thai are.
IamJohnGalt
02-11-14, 02:47
Generally governments and the politicians are owned by and works for the rich and powerful.Agreed.
The solution is not to give them more latitude to operate.The problem is implementation of the solution.
The fascination some ordinary people have with libertarianism is amusing. The people behind it are using you to achieve their ends.The ones trying to use me, and everyone else, are the powerful, not the libertarians who have no power. (The libertarians are nothing like the Tea Party, which started with libertarian principles, but were co-opted by powerful statist interests to prevent any adoption of libertarian principles.) The powerful succeed too often, by creating fear and hatred where little exists. I don't find any of it amusing. I find the libertarian approach much more rational than anything offered by the Republicrats. Again those rational (and often idealistic) approaches are difficult to implement, just like your suggested solution.
The US Constitution with its amendments were actually the second attempt after the Articles of Confederation. The Articles protected the people to a much greateer degree from federal concentrations of power, and that is a primary reason that they had to be replaced by Alexander Hamiltonian and his artistocratic followers. The Jeffersonians (those evil Southerners) insisted that the Bill of Rights be added. American schools used to study the Federalist Papers as the background behind the Constitution. Of course they never studied the Anti-federalist Papers that were the driving force of minds behind the Bill of Rights. Highly recommended reading for the idealist that still lives in all cynics.
As for the current gang of politicians in the south, they are federalists who love power, and manipulate the residents with almost as great a talent as their equally odious northern counterparts do in the north. Arguing over north vs south is just what those looting pirates want us to do.
Paul Kausch
02-11-14, 05:22
(The libertarians are nothing like the Tea Party, which started with libertarian principles, but were co-opted by powerful statist interests to prevent any adoption of libertarian principles.)I agree. I am very familiar with the libertarian movement. My father and other members of my family supported it as far back as the 1970's. My father voted libertarian in the 1980 US Presidential election.
The US Constitution with its amendments were actually the second attempt after the Articles of Confederation.We should just agree to disagree on this point as it's impossible to prove or refute, but my opinion is had the Articles of Confederation been allowed to stay in effect, the colonies would have been reintegrated into the British Empire by the end of the 18th Century.
I'm curious, does anyone else see some parallels between Thai politics and USA politics? Seems to me Pheu Thai and the US Democratic Party have something in common. Both promote expensive, ill-advised programs to buy the votes of large blocks of relatively poor and politically unsophisticated people. Of course the Democrats are also supported by a liberal elite. Right now the USA Republican Party is locked in a fight for control of the party. The elite old guard is trying to wrestle back control from a pseudo-populist movement. Of course there are more differences than similarities. The Republicans have been every bit as bad, if not worse, than the Democrats at running up massive deficits. And the Republican Party's struggle is intra-party.
The previous paragraph is just a feeble attempt to drive the discussion back towards Thai Politics. I suspect the non-Yanks in the audience could give a shit about these posts about USA politics. I would guess Thai politics has a broader appeal.
But may I remind you that the majority of the "founding fathers" were rich landowners. Their goal was to keep everything they had, not share, and ensure their way of life. They also allowed humans to own other humans at a time when Europe had pretty much done away with slavery. You also had to own land to vote.
The US was controlled by this Southern block until after the civil war. From then till the mid-70s the industrial north called the shots and the US made real progress in the way of human and labor rights. If Roosevelt would lived we would have seen the US propelled into a far better place to live for all. Sadly in the mid-70s the Southerners got hold of things again and it has been a backwards walk ever since.That appears to be a fundamental misunderstanding of the framers. Yes, many were wealthy land owners. They had no interest in "sharing," I. E."spreading the wealth," to coin a phrase. They had come up with a meritocracy. You had to have skin in the game if you wanted to vote to spend other people's money. Few people tend to consistently vote against their own best interests. Land ownership was the best method at the time to ensure a person had a vested interest in society. Look what has happened in the US, Thailand, Venezuela, just to name a few. With no skin in the game, a majority of ignorant poor can be led around by the nose by a corrupt politician, will vote for anything as long as they receive their handouts, and the overall financial well-being of the country be damned. Until the haves decide to stop supporting the have-nots.
It's incorrect to judge 18th century slavery by 21st century mores. By the time the founders were in a position to foment a revolution against England slavery had existed in The Colonies for almost 150 years. Few of the framers liked it, but nobody had any good ideas on how to get rid of it. Had the framers forced the issue, the southern states would never have participated and there would have been no republic.
Complete abolition was seen as lunacy because people of the day were very frightened of a race war. Slaves outnumbered whites in the south. That would have been disastrous, had it happened. Maybe it wouldn't have, but it was a real fear.
George Washington inherited slaves, grew up with them and owned them. He had a change of heart at least sometime around the American Revolution. He tended not to speak about it publicly for fear of causing problems and perhaps splitting the country apart. He emancipated his slaves in his will, not earlier, primarily to avoid the breakup of families, as his slaves had intermarried with his wife's.
Thomas Jefferson inherited his estate from his father. At the time, there was a "mortgage" on the property. Then, as today, it was illegal to "devalue" an asset against which there was a lien. Slaves were a very expensive asset. Until the lien was paid, Jefferson could not free his slaves. Yes, he could have freed more. He did firmly believe that emancipation couldn't be done properly without expatriating the slaves back to Africa. As such he probably believed that slavery was preferable to being set free in a strange country. It sounds illogical now, but not then.
This is certainly an oversimplification of a complex problem. But it's just as oversimplified to write off the founders as white, money-grubbing, uncaring slave owners. Times were very different.
The south may have been very vocal, but it hardly "controlled" the country. The north, due to having no slavery, industrialized much quicker than the south and was far more prosperous. Slavery was an extremely bad economic model. Many southerners realized this, and wanted to industrialize. But the North's tariffs on imported machinery, and their own high prices (due to the protectionist tariffs) resulted in a system where (in the South's mind) they north profited unduly from southern industrialization. This played no small part in the South's secession.
I will point out that today, many "backwards" Southern states are far more financially solvent than their "progressive" leftist counterparts in the north. Florida, Texas, Alabama, Louisiana all have unemployment rates in the 6's. Contrast that with the socialist Utopias of California, New York, Michigan, where 6% would cause public orgasms.
Sorry for the bloviating. I'll move on.
I'm curious, does anyone else see some parallels between Thai politics and USA politics? Seems to me Pheu Thai and the US Democratic Party have something in common. Both promote expensive, ill-advised programs to buy the votes of large blocks of relatively poor and politically unsophisticated people. Of course the Democrats are also supported by a liberal elite. Right now the USA Republican Party is locked in a fight for control of the party. The elite old guard is trying to wrestle back control from a pseudo-populist movement. Of course there are more differences than similarities. The Republicans have been every bit as bad, if not worse, than the Democrats at running up massive deficits. And the Republican Party's struggle is intra-party.Well put. It's the same MO everywhere, whether Thailand, Venezuela, Cuba, various banana republics (like the Obama administration). Promise them equality and other peoples' money and then you and your cronies can cash in.
As bad as the Republicans have been, I must point out that this administration has racked up more debt than all other administrations combined. That's a very scary thought.
I'm curious, does anyone else see some parallels between Thai politics and USA politics? Seems to me Pheu Thai and the US Democratic Party have something in common. Both promote expensive, ill-advised programs to buy the votes of large blocks of relatively poor and politically unsophisticated people.
The US Democratic Party and Republican Party are nearly identical neo-liberal capitalist parties, Kausch - both back absolute control of workers lives by the bourgeoisie or owners (the capitalist system). The difference between the parties is just window-dressing, based on minor emotional issues such as racial and sexual intolerance - the GOP appeals to the haters, the Democrats absorb the non-hateful, making them feel they're doing 'some good' while avoiding their questioning the actual problem: capitalism.
Thai politics is far more interesting because only the Taksin party is a neo-liberal 'servant of Wall Street' party in the international standard. Here we actually still have an Ancien Régime - a political power still existing in the 21st century that is essentially feudal and rejects democracy. Its a marvelous thing to behold. Its as if all the ugly forces of modernity were being held at bay by one last remaining Faberge egg...
Maybe I should point out that before G Bush there was surplus. Two wars and his approval on spending (veto power not used) big debt. The administration only approves the money, they don't write the laws. Lax laws and enforcement create a bubble. Bang, you are in trouble. Govt only one big enough to spend moiney to save some businesses Auto companies as an example. To do that must spend money. Imagine if those companies wern't in business and people had no jobs. Not good. So accuse people who now spend to save those jobs and accused of creating debt. Even if you do what needs to be done it is wrong. Republicans want you to take care of yourself and no help from unless someone wants to volunteer the money. Upper incomes can afford it but if you can't. Tough luck. Other side wants to help out so they are socialists. Willing to bet most against this can't define what it is unless. Russia and Nazi's were socialist as well as the Chinese so that is bed. We can't be like them. Like there is a chance of that, hahahaha.
Enough about this crap. We are on the Thailand sight so lets confine it to what is going on in Thailand. It might be more important to how this ties into how it effects us and the pussy.
Lots of posts while I was writing my PhD paper.
Paul Kausch
02-12-14, 01:52
Well put. It's the same MO everywhere, whether Thailand, Venezuela, Cuba, various banana republics (like the Obama administration). Promise them equality and other peoples' money and then you and your cronies can cash in.
As bad as the Republicans have been, I must point out that this administration has racked up more debt than all other administrations combined. That's a very scary thought.I have a hard time blaming one party versus the other for the sad state of the USA national debt. Obama inherited the mess W created, which is the reason for much of his contribution to the deficit. He merely allowed programs created at the end of the Bush administration to continue; and largely as a result of increased tax revenues and sequestration the annual deficits are being reduced, although there are still annual deficits so the total deficit is increasing. Historically, Republican Presidents have a worse record when it comes to deficits than Democratic Presidents. Republic argue this is because the Democrats would not allow them to take the deficit reducing steps they wanted to implement. Frankly, I think they're all full of shit and are equally to blame. The Democrats fuck the taxpayers one way. The Republicans fuck them a different way. Either way, they're both motherfuckers!
Paul Kausch
02-12-14, 01:56
The US Democratic Party and Republican Party are nearly identical neo-liberal capitalist parties, KauschI suppose the USA needs a Papa Joe to fix all its problems. ;)
Thai politics is far more interesting because only the Taksin party is a neo-liberal 'servant of Wall Street' party in the international standard. Here we actually still have an Ancien Régime - a political power still existing in the 21st century that is essentially feudal and rejects democracy. Its a marvelous thing to behold. Its as if all the ugly forces of modernity were being held at bay by one last remaining Faberge egg.I agree. Thai politics are beginning to fascinate me. It's as though the country is struggling with whether it wants to remain feudal or evolve into a rice republic.
Paul Kausch
02-12-14, 02:05
It seems to me mongers who venture to Bangkok are experiencing no more than minor inconveniences. Sounds like the women are more eager than ever and the supply-demand ratio is good for the mongers. I'm still looking forward to my next trip in June.
Seems the big events to watch are the arrests of opposition leaders (they are now starting) and how the corruption investigations play out. I noticed the new elections are slated for about a month after the anti-corruption people decide Yingluck's fate. I have also read the police are charging some soldiers with the attacks on the Pheu Thai politician in Isan who was behind the first attacks against the protesters. Prayuth, the army chief, and Adul, the police chief, are meeting to discuss this. I'd love to be a fly on the wall (fluent in Thai) in the room in which that meeting is held.
Paul Kausch
02-12-14, 04:38
It is now being reported there are widespread expectations Yingluck soon will be formally charged for her roll in the rice scam. The charges will be for violation of Section 157 of the Criminal Code. Once charged, she will be required by law to resign from all official roles. Forty-one other people are also expected to be charged. At least fourteen of these are other senior Pheu Thai ministers, which means none of these people can hold an office once they are charged. So the sixty four thousand dollar question is who will be left to form the new caretaker government? Oh, and the next round of elections won't be until April.
Forget Thaksin. Forget Rice Scheme. Forget Suthep.
Finally some main media outlets have the guts to publish the reasons behind the coups, the false allegations, the reason behind the protests.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/thai-princess-uses-social-media-to-declare-war-photos-posted-by-princess-chulabhorn-mahidol-widely-interpreted-as-a-sign-of-her-support-for-antigovernment-protesters-9122267.html
It is now being reported there are widespread expectations Yingluck soon will be formally charged for her roll in the rice scam. The charges will be for violation of Section 157 of the Criminal Code. Once charged, she will be required by law to resign from all official roles. Forty-one other people are also expected to be charged. At least fourteen of these are other senior Pheu Thai ministers, which means none of these people can hold an office once they are charged. So the sixty four thousand dollar question is who will be left to form the new caretaker government? Oh, and the next round of elections won't be until April.You should have said "Ďts now being reported by the anti-government, anti-Thaksin Bangkok Post which is biased and supports Suthep" that Yingluck might be indicted.
And I would love to know, when the NACC has not made any ruling, that the Bangkok Post can write such a stupid article which in itself says they have no idea, but the headline attempts to say she willbe indicted by virtue of saying they "expect" her to be indicted.
And, even if indicted it does not mean she is guilty, just charged.
And in the event she is charged the Constitution of Thailand then allows a PTP replacement to take over, widely expected to be number 2 on the Party List, former PM Somchai Wongsawat.
PTP are playing this well, you see if she resigns then its legal nightmare. If she is forced to step down due to charges, then someone else from PTP can take over, no problem.
The protestors side are really struggling now, all they are trying to do is get more bargaining chips to bring the to table, but PTP are playing by the law, no negotiation, follow the election and follow the constitution.
IamJohnGalt
02-12-14, 10:49
It is now being reported there are widespread expectations Yingluck soon will be formally charged for her roll in the rice scam. The charges will be for violation of Section 157 of the Criminal Code. Once charged, she will be required by law to resign from all official roles. Forty-one other people are also expected to be charged. At least fourteen of these are other senior Pheu Thai ministers, which means none of these people can hold an office once they are charged. So the sixty four thousand dollar question is who will be left to form the new caretaker government? Oh, and the next round of elections won't be until April.When the rice farmers arrive to protest, the ones charged (and therefore no longer in office) may be the lucky ones.
I have a hard time blaming one party versus the other for the sad state of the USA national debt. Obama inherited the mess W created, which is the reason for much of his contribution to the deficit. He merely allowed programs created at the end of the Bush administration to continue; and largely as a result of increased tax revenues and sequestration the annual deficits are being reduced, although there are still annual deficits so the total deficit is increasing. Historically, Republican Presidents have a worse record when it comes to deficits than Democratic Presidents. Republic argue this is because the Democrats would not allow them to take the deficit reducing steps they wanted to implement. Frankly, I think they're all full of shit and are equally to blame. The Democrats fuck the taxpayers one way. The Republicans fuck them a different way. Either way, they're both motherfuckers!After 6 or so years you are still beating the same drum and blaming W! It was the Dem's congress and guys like Barney Frank and the whole liberal gang who wanted everyone to own a home whether they could afford it or not. That's not what the USA should be about. That's some form of socialism or communism. That is what caused all the problems. You know these idiots who want equal pay for everyone (the same group) need to have their heads examined and the operated on by the doctor getting paid the same as the trash collector or bus driver. Everyone should have the same opportunity to earn the same money – BUT not earn the same.
After 6 or so years you are still beating the same drum and blaming W! It was the Dem's congress and guys like Barney Frank and the whole liberal gang who wanted everyone to own a home whether they could afford it or not. That's not what the USA should be about. That's some form of socialism or communism. That is what caused all the problems. You know these idiots who want equal pay for everyone (the same group) need to have their heads examined and the operated on by the doctor getting paid the same as the trash collector or bus driver. Everyone should have the same opportunity to earn the same money – BUT not earn the same.At least Obamas not racist. He wants shit for all, except himself of course. The world can thank guys like Paul K for the lowering of eveyones standard of living. Those Africans who make $1.50 a day can now count on $1. 48 a day.
Imagine if hot hookers had to share the spoils with the ugly ones. Where would that leave us?
Capitalism works people!
questioning the actual Problem: capitalism.
Thai politics is far more interesting because only the Taksin party is a neo-liberal 'servant of Wall Street' party in the international standard. Here we actually still have an Ancien Régime. A political power still existing in the 21st century that is essentially feudal and rejects democracy. Its a marvelous thing to behold. Its as if all the ugly forces of modernity were being held at bay by one last remaining Faberge egg.Welcome to yellow shirt membership & the Surayud Group:
"Surayud's Defense Minister later announced that the junta would refuse Thaksin's reconciliation offer, claiming that Thailand was being threatened by "ill-intentioned people" and capitalism. [182]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surayud_Chulanont
"Senator Karoon Sai-ngam of Buriram Province told women to pass photos of Thaksin between their legs and curse Thaksin three times to leave Thailand and flee to Singapore. [21]
After 6 or so years you are still beating the same drum and blaming W! It was the Dem's congress and guys like Barney Frank and the whole liberal gang who wanted everyone to own a home whether they could afford it or not. That's not what the USA should be about. That's some form of socialism or communism. That is what caused all the problems. You know these idiots who want equal pay for everyone (the same group) need to have their heads examined and the operated on by the doctor getting paid the same as the trash collector or bus driver. Everyone should have the same opportunity to earn the same money – BUT not earn the same.Huh? Obama is center right at best. What the US needs is a real labor party that stands up for workers and the middle class. Folks in the rest of the developed world have it much better. Except for the period between WWII and the late 70s (thanks to the Roosevelts) the US has truly been a plantation nation.
No one thinks trash collectors should be paid the same as Drs, but everyone should make a living wage. The economy does better when everyone does. It is consumer based.
The home loan thing was a scam concocted by the banks and the mortgage industry. The US refuses to enact proper regulation on banks. The repeal of Glass-Steg was the final nail.
Huh? Obama is center right at best. What the US needs is a real labor party that stands up for workers and the middle class. Folks in the rest of the developed world have it much better. Except for the period between WWII and the late 70s (thanks to the Roosevelts) the US has truly been a plantation nation.
No one thinks trash collectors should be paid the same as Drs, but everyone should make a living wage. The economy does better when everyone does. It is consumer based.
The home loan thing was a scam concocted by the banks and the mortgage industry. The US refuses to enact proper regulation on banks. The repeal of Glass-Steg was the final nail.And there it is. But, until this is revealed on fox news propagated as the conventional wisdom, we can rest assured the reality is just not going to penetrate.
After 6 or so years you are still beating the same drum and blaming W! It was the Dem's congress and guys like Barney Frank and the whole liberal gang who wanted everyone to own a home whether they could afford it or not. That's not what the USA should be about. That's some form of socialism or communism. That is what caused all the problems. You know these idiots who want equal pay for everyone (the same group) need to have their heads examined and the operated on by the doctor getting paid the same as the trash collector or bus driver. Everyone should have the same opportunity to earn the same money – BUT not earn the same.
The US Democratic Party and Republican Party are nearly identical neo-liberal capitalist parties, Kausch - both back absolute control of workers lives by the bourgeoisie or owners (the capitalist system). The difference between the parties is just window-dressing, based on minor emotional issues such as racial and sexual intolerance - the GOP appeals to the haters, the Democrats absorb the non-hateful, making them feel they're doing 'some good' while avoiding their questioning the actual problem: capitalism.
...
Ahhhh,
To read this thread really gets painful.
"If your not a Socialist before 30 you have no heart, if your still a Socialist after 30 you have no head" (I would say "have no brain") .
I assume you guys are 12.
Giotto
.
Thai politics is far more interesting because only the Taksin party is a neo-liberal 'servant of Wall Street' party in the international standard. Here we actually still have an Ancien Régime. A political power still existing in the 21st century that is essentially feudal and rejects democracy. Its a marvelous thing to behold. Its as if all the ugly forces of modernity were being held at bay by one last remaining Faberge egg.Oh yeah! Occupy Wall Street!
We come up with the old never ending stories. Feudal system ... "Ancien Regime" . What a bullshit!
The King is 86 and very sick. He for sure DOES NOT run such a regime. The Queen stays in bed with a stroke. The son is happy if nobody wants anything from him. He spends most of his time on a hospital compound close to Munich. The daughter is representing the Thai monarchy and has not political agenda.
The privy council! The average age should be around 86, too. This are old bastards, generals, some coup makers. But they are not running ANYTHING any more. Even Prem did not pop up for ages now.
The "amart", the imaginary yellow elite. Oh yes. They run the country! ... Sorry, who is that? Can somebody introduce me to this people?
The rich families, land owners, stock holders of the big Thai companies? Yes! But this capital is already in the hands of Western educated sons, having spent a lot of their life outside of Thailand, most of them educated on English or American elite universities. This guys do not run feudal systems, but of course they have implemented structures to have access to political power. They are in ALL parties, they have candidates everywhere. And they don't give a shit whether the PTP or the DP has the majority in the parliament. Those people are clever. And run the real big business in Thailand. They can deal with small political eruptions like Thaksin!
Most of what I read here is the bullshit Thai politics talking we get in newspapers and internet forums and village bars for some years now. And - of course - in Red Shirt Radio! 24 hours a day!
Can somebody please come up with something new? Something which is close or only closer to reality?
Do you dumbos really believe that these "ancient regime"s still work in the way of Louis 14th (France)? Or Kaiser Wilhelm in Germany? What do you people talk about? Can somebody please explain that to me?
I read New Mandala. Quoted from our house idiot below. An Australian "Doctor" grouping governments, the international press and the Thai groups / parties into 2 main contenders: the "reds" and the "blues" (BLUE?). Strangely - did he oversee that there might be 3 contenders, or even 4? No - not an option. It had to be 2. The Chinese Government and Obamsky had to be in one of those 2 groups, too. How dumb!
I read Crispin (quoted here) , who as always has his very special "secret background information". How comes that he always has that? It was discussed (who discussed that?) to give Thaksin "a year" to get is wealth and his family out of Thailand, as a kind of compromise. Who the fuck is Crispin that he gets this very specific info? And negotiating are army generals? Those guys who right now DEFINITELY DON'T WANT to stage a coup? ... But everybody believes that Crispin has eaten knowledge with spoons!
I read a post from this other brain-dead guy who writes about the "royalist elite" forces who want to avoid that a Thaksin controlled government is in power when the succession event occurs. Who the fuck is that? And - the succession problem is there, for years now. Thaksin controlled governments are in power, from time to time, and they are stripped off their power from time to time. It's the "PARLIAMENT" that has a word (though I doubt it) in case of a succession event, not the government.
Then he writes that Thaksin is associated with the the Crown Prince. Yeah, that was years ago. But things have changed! But this guy did not follow up on the news, and the trouble between the two in the past few years. No - we just oversee this and repeat the stories from Thaksins governance times. Why should we stay up-to-date?
Has anybody a realistic and simple approach to the ongoing political crisis besides all the bullshit I read here?
Giotto
Paul Kausch
02-12-14, 16:39
After 6 or so years you are still beating the same drum and blaming W! It was the Dem's congress and guys like Barney Frank and the whole liberal gang who wanted everyone to own a home whether they could afford it or not. That's not what the USA should be about. That's some form of socialism or communism. That is what caused all the problems. You know these idiots who want equal pay for everyone (the same group) need to have their heads examined and the operated on by the doctor getting paid the same as the trash collector or bus driver. Everyone should have the same opportunity to earn the same money – BUT not earn the same.I agree with every criticism you lodge against the democrats, and could add many more. I loath the Democrat. At the same time George W's Presidency was abysmal; and how anyone can't see the Republicans for what they are is, to put it kindly, puzzling.
Let's try to go into some details:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1924_Palace_Law_of_Succession
Wikipedia comes to the following conclusion:
"...
While the successions of all monarchs from the Royal House of Chakri involved a process of endorsement, in some form, involving either elder royals, the Privy Council or the national government, there is nothing uncertain about the next succession. As things stand in 2013, the cabinet will inform the president of the National Assembly who will invite Crown Prince Vajiralongkorn to become king."
Now - of course certain people disagree with this simplified approach, especially :):):) Andrew MacGregor Marshall, our Zenjournalist!!!
http://www.zenjournalist.com/2012/10/a-brief-guide-to-thailands-royal-succession/
He states:
"...
The 1924 Palace Law on Succession contains a provision explicitly aimed at preventing the accession of an undesirable monarch. Article 10 states:
The Heir who is to succeed to the Throne should be fully respected by the people and the people should be able to rely on him happily. If he is considered by the majority of the people as objectionable, he should be out of the line to the Throne.
The claim of the Thai monarchy to be somehow democratic rests heavily on this provision being applied when appropriate."
That's interesting, isn't it?
Coming back to the 1924 Palace Law:
Section 11 states: "Descendants of the royal family with any of the following characters shall be excluded from the line of succession:
- Insanity;
- Convicted of a serious crime under the law;
- Unable to serve as Upholder of Buddhism;
- Married to a foreign consort, I. E. A woman whose nationality is originally not Thai;
- Being removed from the position of heir to the throne regardless of during which reign such removal took place;
- Being proclaimed to be excluded from the line of succession.
The top 3 issues are relevant. Let's talk about Fufu. That's a poodle. It is not too difficult to have doubts in regards of "Sanity" if one watches a video about a certain dogs birthday party exposing the future Q uee and dressed in. Not too much. I also wear G-Strings and a hat today. But - historically women were dressed like this here decades / centuries ago. So this might not be a huge issue (me wearing G-Strings and a hat is one, of course). But. Lowering herself to the floor feeding a dog face to face. That has something very special (final seconds of the video). Thais love this one. Disrespect pure. Serving a dog. Wow.
Reminds me of the status of this dog. He (it) has the rank of an officer of the army (don't know the rank in details, but I think I remember this dog being a General)! Really! The problem was, that only officers were allowed in the officer's mess. And the dog could not go there. So - to get the dog was made an officer! Does somebody wants to know how the real officers think and feel about this? NOOOOO, you don't want to know !
..
Bored? Nahh, it still can get better. Let's think a bit more about all this one:
Section 8 and 9 lay out the processes by which a new king is determined when the king dies with no heir apparent designated. In such case, the chief state official is to invite the first in line of succession to be king. Section 9 was set out "to clear any doubt" as to "the order in the line of succession", delineated down to 13 levels. Below are the first six levels:
- The first-born son of the king and queen;
- The first-born son of the said prince and his royal consort;
- Younger sons, in order, of the said prince and his royal consort;
- The second-born son of the king and queen when the first-born son is deceased and has no male children;
- The first-born son of the second-born son of the king and queen if the second-born son is deceased;
- Younger sons, in order, of the second-born son [and so on].
That means: Kids of the first born son first. There is a heir now, but - there are some more:
"When Vajiralongkorn was introduced to Yuvadhida Polpraserth, she was an aspiring actress. She became his steady companion and gave birth to his first son, Prince Juthavachara Mahidol, on 29 August 1979. He later had three more sons and a daughter by her. They were married at a palace ceremony in February 1994, where they were blessed by the King and the Princess Mother, but not by the Queen. After the marriage, she was allowed to change her name to Mom Sujarinee Mahidol na Ayudhaya, signifying she was a commoner married to a royal. She was also commissioned as a major in the Royal Thai Army and took part in royal ceremonies with Vajiralongkorn. When she fled to Britain in 1996 with their children, Vajiralongkorn had posters placed around his palace accusing her of committing adultery with Anand Rotsamkhan, a 60-year-old air marshal. [22] The prince abducted their daughter and brought her back to Thailand to live with him. She was later elevated to the rank of princess, whilst Sujarinee and her sons were stripped of their diplomatic passports and titles. She and her sons later moved to the United States. As of 2007, Sujarinee is known as Sujarinee Vivacharawongse."
Nahhh - she was just a commoner, but the first born son holds the title of a Prince ... Mahidol (Name of the father of the King !!!).
The mother was only a "na Ayudhaya", thats a part of a name which can under certain circumstances be added to commoner names that are married into the royal family.
OK then. There is this huge elephant in the room - but let's talk about bullshit again.
Giotto
Now, shall we have a look into the CV's of some Thai politicians?
Oh yes, we should. Let's take. Chalerm Yubamrung. Nice guy. .
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CCcQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FChalerm_Yubamrung&ei=Trj7UpiXFMejlQWX-IDQBA&usg=AFQjCNHyva2IDyNDT3Skup6zqCIfCgfryw&sig2=WBfNE6F5YzRLB7d8MCs74w&bvm=bv.61190604,d.dGI
He is Deputy Prime Minister of Thailand! And Minister of Labour! Before he was Minister of Interior. Before he was Minister of Public Health. And 1992 he was Minister for Office of the Prime Minister! Yeah! He was. 1992! That time he was in the cabinet of PM Chatchai Choonhavan, who was democratically elected! Suprise! But then:
"...
In the wake of the coup Chalerm was among the politicians accused of "unusual wealth", and had 32 million baht in assets seized. [4] He fled Thailand to live in Sweden and Denmark until the political situation cooled down."
Chalerm is a prick!
He is now member of the PTP (Pheu Thai Party). That's Thaksins party. Supported by some of our special friends of this forum: PinkPearl and our house idiot The Prick (Pro).
But. Basically he does not care so much about the party, because he is always there where the power is. He was member of.
- the DP (1986)
- then he formed his own party (the Mass Party)
- then allied with The Nation Party (now Chart Thai, methinks, Banharn Silpa-Archa's playground)
- then he dissolved the Mass Party and merged into the New Aspiration Party of then-PM Chavalit Yongchaiyudh.
- since 2007 he is a member of People's Power Party (now Pheu Thai)
Wow. He was always there where the power was. One of the Dinosaurs.
Just check the Wikipedia piece with all the names there, which ended up in Pheu Thai:
- Samak Sundarevej (Bangkok Governor, Member of the DP, involved on the 1976 Massacre at the Thammasat University) , a big pig, but finally Prime Minister for Thaksins Pheu Thai.
- Chavalit Yongchaiyudh, member of several parties over the time, a very controverse figure that scares Thais up to today, but now member of Thaksins Pheu Thai.
- our friend Chalerm!
Banharn Silpa-Archa is not member of Pheu Thai, but his party cooperates with the government.
Shall I talk about Newin Chidchobs story? Shall I talk about Chalerms sons and certain killings with disappearing witnesses afterwards?
Nahh, it's late. But all that looks to me as if - the original accumulation of human waste is now in one political movement (PTP). Co-Players are then the members of the Shinawatra family. Sister, Brother in Law. They are all there.
Not that anybody misunderstands me - we can start with Suthep Thaugsuban - and analyze the DP (Democratic Party). Same shithole, no difference. Just - they are not "in" right now. The others are. They have lost more prominent politicians to --- LOL, the PTP, because they cannot win elections :) ! It's so easy!
Now - if the political power players can so easily undermine a party - how easy will it be for the intelligent and strategically planning business and financial leaders of the country to control such a shithole (PTP) ? . Very easy, if they really want to ...
Giotto
PS: Somebody realized that even Suthep is mentioned in the above Wikipedia Article? All the assholes were already active in the 90's!
Ahhhh,
To read this thread really gets painful.
"If your not a Socialist before 30 you have no heart, if your still a Socialist after 30 you have no head" (I would say "have no brain").
I assume you guys are 12.
GiottoToo bad most here are senoir citizen socialists!
Paul Kausch
02-13-14, 08:46
On or about 25th of February 2000 rice farmers from 5 northern provinces will hold a protest demanding payment of monies past due and insisting that Yingluck and her government resign. Prakasit Cheamchamras, a core leader of northern farmers, said, "Farmers will not block the road like in the past, but we will gather in a movement to pressure the government in Bangkok and to demand the payment due and the resignation of the government."
Crocodilexp
02-13-14, 19:46
Now, shall we have a look into the CV's of some Thai politicians?
Oh yes, we should. Let's take. Chalerm Yubamrung. Nice guy. .Did you just manage to talk about Chalerm without mentioning his most illustrious progeny and their superb marksmanship? Virtually all the other corruption put together is harmless fun compared to that one case.
Wolvenvacht
02-13-14, 20:15
On or about 25th of February 2000 rice farmers from 5 northern provinces will hold a protest demanding payment of monies past due and insisting that Yingluck and her government resign. Prakasit Cheamchamras, a core leader of northern farmers, said, "Farmers will not block the road like in the past, but we will gather in a movement to pressure the government in Bangkok and to demand the payment due and the resignation of the government."Fully 2000 farmers protesting? Asking their money and the resignation of the government? I"m sure the government is already trembling and booking tickets to far away countries.
Poor farmers, then don't understand the game. Now if they were just asking for their money, I could see their point of view. But asking for the resignation of the government? Do they really think that will help at all? Another government is likely to kill the whole rice subsidy scheme just to spite the farmer-supporters of the present government.
ManonsanBoy
02-13-14, 22:07
Thailand is basically a hypocrisy. It is friendly but very racist. Its culture is supposed to be gentle but it is a violent place. The current dispute is basically the Bangkok elite trying to hang on to its corruption and privileges with due democratic process. The Thai military has been complicit in this for decades but now, they are also split. Even if a coup is ordered, how many will the soldiers kill and who will they kill. YUCK. Go somewhere else for your fun.
Paul Kausch
02-14-14, 01:57
Fully 2000 farmers protesting? Asking their money and the resignation of the government? I"m sure the government is already trembling and booking tickets to far away countries.
Poor farmers, then don't understand the game. Now if they were just asking for their money, I could see their point of view. But asking for the resignation of the government? Do they really think that will help at all? Another government is likely to kill the whole rice subsidy scheme just to spite the farmer-supporters of the present government.Well, there's another group of farmers who have just filed suit against Yingluck and her cronies over failure to pay. The first group of rice farmers to wage protests was in the south; then another group in central Thailand started to protest. The rice farmers in the north are just the latest group; 2000 is the number or farmers expected in Bangkok; they represent a much larger group of farmers; and they are first asking for their money and then demanding the resignation of the current caretaker government. The seasons will not wait for the politicians and the farmers need money to get started on the new rice crop. They want to see a new government formed that can actually do something.
I think these rice farmers foresee that one way or another Yingluck's days are numbered. Either she resigns or the anti-corruption court will indict her, which will require her to resign. A few days ago the court signaled that the indictment is forthcoming before the end of the month. Within the last 24 hours Yingluck announced she is ready to talk to the opposition about how to end the crisis. In the past she has suggested meetings with the opposition to end the crisis, but on the precondition that she will not resign. This precondition is conspicuously absent in this latest announcement. She said she will not carry on direct talks. She proposes handling the talks through intermediaries. Sounds to me like she may be trying to open negotiates for a clean exit. The pending corruption indictment is for violations of Section 157 of the criminal code.
More and more people are recognizing that the rice scam needs to end, including more and more rice farmers.
I just read an interesting article. In 2011 Veerapong Ramangkul, a broadly and highly respected economist, wrote the following about the rice scam. "All agricultural produce-pledging programmes implemented since 1986 have met with abject failure, wasting a huge amount of public money, with most of the benefits going to a select group of millers and exporters, ministers and politicians while the farmers got only crumbs." Unfortunately, he was spot on.
Ahhhh,
To read this thread really gets painful.
"If your not a Socialist before 30 you have no heart, if your still a Socialist after 30 you have no head" (I would say "have no brain").
I assume you guys are 12.
GiottoSomeone who finally understands, and O is as racist as they come. America isn't or he wouldn't have been elected.
Western787
02-14-14, 02:20
YUCK. Go somewhere else for your fun.LOL, last I heard there was an LE crackdown in Dongguan where a lot of your posts seem to be focused on, same in Dominican Republic, and same in Angeles City, Phillipines. As for Bangkok, for those that love beautiful women, this period of time will be one for the record books.
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