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I have no idea how much it cost them to make Prigozhin turn back, but he had a real chance. That's beside the point, though.
While Putin was saved by the bell today (or more probably lots and lots of money that the ordinary Russians and their descendants will be repaying ad infinitum), just think what the Ukrainians have witnessed.
A small military unit with very limited hardware has managed to cross from the borders of Russia to the "borders" of Moscow in 24 hours without meeting any resistance.
With dozens or hundreds of fighters joining them voluntarily as they were marching on Moscow -- the city universally hated by everyone who doesn't live there.
24 hours, for fuck's sake!
And aside from the AFU, this astonishing March was witnessed by dozens of repressed, Moscow-hating ethnic minorities.
Oh my!
No upcoming March 2024 Presidential Elections in Ukraine after total mobilization in 3 regions. Who could have thought, eh?
Maybe advance them to 15th and call the Praetorians?
DramaFree11
06-25-23, 03:51
I have no idea how much it cost them to make Prigozhin turn back, but he had a real chance. That's beside the point, though.
While Putin was saved by the bell today (or more probably lots and lots of money that the ordinary Russians and their descendants will be repaying ad infinitum), just think what the Ukrainians have witnessed.
A small military unit with very limited hardware has managed to cross from the borders of Russia to the "borders" of Moscow in 24 hours without meeting any resistance.
With dozens or hundreds of fighters joining them voluntarily as they were marching on Moscow -- the city universally hated by everyone who doesn't live there.
24 hours, for fuck's sake!
And aside from the AFU, this astonishing March was witnessed by dozens of repressed, Moscow-hating ethnic minorities.
Oh my!Will you ever stop watching fake news! Do you maybe think this was a huge set-up?
No upcoming March 2024 Presidential Elections in Ukraine after total mobilization in 3 regions. Who could have thought, eh?
Maybe advance them to 15th and call the Praetorians?If you hate ukraine so much, just post your political opinions elsewhere. But you coming over to a forum to shit on the country it is about is garbage-ass behavior. You can voice your arguments in the appropriate sub-forum, but incessant ad-hominem is not an argument. Go play in the russia forum, its been too quiet over there and I'm sure they would appreciate your input more. Man, I've totally lost any respect I might have had for you.
Orc noisesWho is the bunker boi fuckhead? Can you remind me? And given you live in a kleptocratic dictatorship, why the fuck are you concerned about elections fuckface?
Look at comrade fuckwit, pretty accurate picture of him.
No astonishment in viewing Western MM reaction through a hostile narrow tunnel vision from talking points to conclusions. Wake up, dumb heads, you don't have a clue!
Anyway, expect some changes starting this Monday. As we like to say, 'same working girls but beds in new order'.
Something went wrong here, mates.
https://t.me/RVvoenkor/48145
Meanwhile Zed has consoled himself by signing a decree forbidding him to shoot himself. It would have been a luxury. The people of Rome are in need to be entertained.
John Clayton
06-26-23, 02:51
Meanwhile Zed has consoled himself by signing a decree forbidding him to shoot himself. It would have been a luxury. The people of Rome are in need to be entertained.How much do you earn per month for posting here?
1. The failed state with over 6 K+ nuclear warheads allowed a group of about 4,000 armed men AKA the Wagner Group to move from the borders of Ukraine to Moscow Oblast in less than 24 hours after having captured 2 major Russian cities. Putin and his henchmen fled Moscow.
2. To placate the Wagner chief Prigozhin, Putin sent general Dyumin (currently the governor of Tula oblast and Prigozhin ally) to talk some sense into him. All lies about (Belarussian dictator) Lukashenko's participation in the negotiations is bullshit. The results:
- Kremlin agreed to remove the Defense Minister Shoigu and Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff Gerasimov.
- Kremlin agreed to appoint Dyumin the new Minister of Defense and Surovikin (another Prigozhin ally) as the new Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff.
- Prigozhin agreed to lift the siege and return to Wagner's field camps.
3. Dyumin's appointment means Prigozhin gets to control the $143 billion DoD budget. That's not even counting the newly classified parts of the state budget allotted to the war chest.
4. Wagner's military commander Utkin who had an order to take Moscow is not happy and openly calls his boss a prison * (which is how Prigozhin survived during his incarceration). Utkin is currently busy creating his own PMC.
5. Putin is allowed to live and return to Kremlin -- for now.
1. Bogged down in Ukraine.
2. Expansion of NATO.
3. Continued economic contraction with ruble the value of rubble.
4. Armed mutiny marches on Muscovy facing virtually no resistance.
5. Having to rely upon the illegitimate vassal Lukashenko to save the day.
6. And last but not least, it's not over yet, and it's not looking good!
What an incredible cluster fuck Putinism has wrought upon mother Russia! Yes indeed "this too shall pass". Just like the stinky turd that it is!
How much do you earn per month for posting here?He gets to suck off all Muscovite conscripts before they are deployed to Ukraine. No one gets to the front before Qbot drains their balls.
How come, within a day a slew of recycled specialists on Russia has evaporated from TV screens, all former generals, former anchors, former chiefs of stations, what a shame indeed!
How come, within a day a slew of recycled specialists on Russia has evaporated from TV screens, all former generals, former anchors, former chiefs of stations, what a shame indeed!The shithead returns and just as retarded as usual.
One president -- against all pleas from foreign emissaries and his own advisors -- refuses to flee and stays in his capital to face and eventually crush the full-blown onslaught of a 200,000-strong army that was reputed to be the second strongest military in the world.
And then we have another (so-called) president who flees THE VERY MOMENT 8,000 thugs armed with nothing more than a couple of tanks and a few infantry vehicles start moving toward his capital.
I repeat my question I once asked here: have there ever in history been aggressors as cowardly and pathetic as the current tsar of Russia?
Anyone?
DramaFree11
06-28-23, 16:16
One president -- against all pleas from foreign emissaries and his own advisors -- refuses to flee and stays in his capital to face and eventually crush the full-blown onslaught of a 200,000-strong army that was reputed to be the second strongest military in the world.
And then we have another (so-called) president who flees THE VERY MOMENT 8,000 thugs armed with nothing more than a couple of tanks and a few infantry vehicles start moving toward his capital.
I repeat my question I once asked here: have there ever in history been aggressors as cowardly and pathetic as the current tsar of Russia?
Anyone?Xman instead of joining the Ukraine military, I think there is a better job for you. You really should take your crazy thoughts and apply for a job at CNN or one of the other wacko networks you get your news from.
1. The failed state with over 6 K+ nuclear warheads allowed a group of about 4,000 armed men AKA the Wagner Group to move from the borders of Ukraine to Moscow Oblast in less than 24 hours after having captured 2 major Russian cities. Putin and his henchmen fled Moscow.
2. To placate the Wagner chief Prigozhin, Putin sent general Dyumin (currently the governor of Tula oblast and Prigozhin ally) to talk some sense into him. All lies about (Belarussian dictator) Lukashenko's participation in the negotiations is bullshit. The results:
- Kremlin agreed to remove the Defense Minister Shoigu and Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff Gerasimov.
- Kremlin agreed to appoint Dyumin the new Minister of Defense and Surovikin (another Prigozhin ally) as the new Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff.
- Prigozhin agreed to lift the siege and return to Wagner's field camps.
3. Dyumin's appointment means Prigozhin gets to control the $143 billion DoD budget. That's not even counting the newly classified parts of the state budget allotted to the war chest.
4. Wagner's military commander Utkin who had an order to take Moscow is not happy and openly calls his boss a prison * (which is how Prigozhin survived during his incarceration). Utkin is currently busy creating his own PMC.
5. Putin is allowed to live and return to Kremlin -- for now.Hmm, I may have been premature labeling you as a genius in the American Politics thread. Time will tell. But you definitely get an A+ for creative writing. While I wouldn't trust you as head of the NSA, you'd make a darn good Hollywood screenwriter.
Hmm, I may have been premature labeling you as a genius in the American Politics thread. Time will tell. But you definitely get an A+ for creative writing. While I wouldn't trust you as head of the NSA, you'd make a darn good Hollywood screenwriter.I'm neither a genius nor a creative writer. I do, however, have basic research and analytical skills that help me get some clarity.
1. The 21st century isn't kind to empires.
2. And the Russian Empire is the last empire on planet Earth.
3. And it's run by an ignorant coward.
4. And it's rotten to its core.
When you do realize these simple, unimpeachable facts and have some reasonably decent knowledge of the bloody and bloodthirsty Russia's history, you don't need to be a genius to know what's coming next. The Russian Empire will go down hard and it will take hundreds of thousands if not millions of lives with it.
There is no way around it. Eltsyn's controlled dissolution of the Soviet Union will not repeat itself. The upcoming catastrophe will be a bloody, bloody mess. The civil war in Yugoslavia will look like a walk in the park compared to this.
I totally understand why Biden and the West are terrified by this prospect, and why they consistently and stubbornly decline Kyiv's request for F16 and more advanced artillery. Not that they aren't trying to help Ukraine -- it's just that they don't want Putin to lose his grip on power no matter what.
Because what can go wrong with 6 K+ nukes during the most horrific civil war in the history of mankind, right?
The problem is, this is futile. You can't stop history or help a madman. Instead of trying to control the Ukrainians and keep Putin in Kremlin, Biden and the Nato need to be working with other actors inside Russia who're likely to participate in future festivities.
NB. I can be wrong, of course. LOL, I hope I am.
I totally understand why Biden and the West are terrified by this prospect, and why they consistently and stubbornly decline Kyiv's request for F16 and more advanced artillery. Not that they aren't trying to help Ukraine -- it's just that they don't want Putin to lose his grip on power no matter what.You simply don't know what you are talking about and aren't following the news at all. This while you continue to exude your doom and gloom cowardice. Thanks to very bad decisions by Russia the world is in a tough spot but cowering to Putin, his nuclear saber rattling, and whoever may follow him is the exact wrong way to go. Had we supported Ukraine back in 2014 there's a good chance we wouldn't be where we are today. Obama was a wuss in that regard. Biden has been better but still well short of the mark. Ukraine needs to be given what they need to push Russia out of their territory. As to your nuclear panics, I couldn't care less about your fear while wimps like you play right into Putin's hand. We need to remain strong while locked and loaded. If Russia plays that hand the consequences must be catastrophic.
https://www.economist.com/europe/2023/06/01/ukraine-gets-its-f-16s
DramaFree11
07-01-23, 02:54
You simply don't know what you are talking about and aren't following the news at all. This while you continue to exude your doom and gloom cowardice. Thanks to very bad decisions by Russia the world is in a tough spot but cowering to Putin, his nuclear saber rattling, and whoever may follow him is the exact wrong way to go. Had we supported Ukraine back in 2014 there's a good chance we wouldn't be where we are today. Obama was a wuss in that regard. Biden has been better but still well short of the mark. Ukraine needs to be given what they need to push Russia out of their territory. As to your nuclear panics, I couldn't care less about your fear while wimps like you play right into Putin's hand. We need to remain strong while locked and loaded. If Russia plays that hand the consequences must be catastrophic.
https://www.economist.com/europe/2023/06/01/ukraine-gets-its-f-16sGreat advice. You guys are truly delusional. Ukraine doesn't need any more weapons, they need to find a solution to end this, but you wackos want this war, now you are getting Ukraine destroyed in the process. Great job!
You simply don't know what you are talking about and aren't following the news at all. This while you continue to exude your doom and gloom cowardice. Thanks to very bad decisions by Russia the world is in a tough spot but cowering to Putin, his nuclear saber rattling, and whoever may follow him is the exact wrong way to go. Had we supported Ukraine back in 2014 there's a good chance we wouldn't be where we are today. Obama was a wuss in that regard. Biden has been better but still well short of the mark. Ukraine needs to be given what they need to push Russia out of their territory. As to your nuclear panics, I couldn't care less about your fear while wimps like you play right into Putin's hand. We need to remain strong while locked and loaded. If Russia plays that hand the consequences must be catastrophic.
https://www.economist.com/europe/2023/06/01/ukraine-gets-its-f-16sDear Paulie,
What Xpartan wrote below sounded pretty sensible to me, except, being an optimist, I don't think Russia will go through a "bloody, bloody mess." Or at least nothing as severe as the Bolshevik Revolution and the civil war that followed. It would be great if we could somehow return to the relationship we had with Russia under Yeltsin, although that won't happen with Putin in power.
Ironically, the Economist, which you linked to, published an article recently that pretty much repeated what Xpartan said. He appears to be on your side by the way, at least in his other posts, in wanting to arm Ukraine to the teeth and fight the war to the last Ukrainian. If you want to pin this on cowardly, stingy gloom and doomers, you should look to people like me instead. IMHO, Biden and the USA should be pushing the sides to end this war, in a way that would insure the security of those on Ukrainian soil who don't support Russia.
Peace and Love,
Tiny
There is no way around it. Eltsyn's (sic) controlled dissolution of the Soviet Union will not repeat itself. The upcoming catastrophe will be a bloody, bloody mess. The civil war in Yugoslavia will look like a walk in the park compared to this.
I totally understand why Biden and the West are terrified by this prospect, and why they consistently and stubbornly decline Kyiv's request for F16 and more advanced artillery. Not that they aren't trying to help Ukraine -- it's just that they don't want Putin to lose his grip on power no matter what.
Because what can go wrong with 6 K+ nukes during the most horrific civil war in the history of mankind, right?
Great advice. You guys are truly delusional. Ukraine doesn't need any more weapons, they need to find a solution to end this, but you wackos want this war, now you are getting Ukraine destroyed in the process. Great job!They're not wackos DramaFree. They probably are Lockheed and Raytheon shareholders though.
DramaFree11
07-02-23, 06:57
They're not wackos DramaFree. They probably are Lockheed and Raytheon shareholders though.You might be on to something, but yes they are both crazy as Hell.
Great advice. You guys are truly delusional. Ukraine doesn't need any more weapons, they need to find a solution to end this, but you wackos want this war, now you are getting Ukraine destroyed in the process. Great job!There is a solution fuckwit, RuZZians leave the territory of Ukraine and respect the 1991 borders and treaties they signed. Ask them to stop invading and attacking, not Ukraine to stop defending.
You simply don't know what you are talking about and aren't following the news at all. This while you continue to exude your doom and gloom cowardice. Thanks to very bad decisions by Russia the world is in a tough spot but cowering to Putin, his nuclear saber rattling, and whoever may follow him is the exact wrong way to go.
By now you should've had a perfect clarity about my views on this war -- in addition to our PM exchanges I've been posting about it for more than a year. But no, somehow, I'm advocating "cowering to Putin"! How about reading my posts (it's fucking short enough!) in their ENTIRETY before lounging your deranged attacks?
Had we supported Ukraine back in 2014 there's a good chance we wouldn't be where we are today. Obama was a wuss in that regard. Biden has been better but still well short of the mark. Ukraine needs to be given what they need to push Russia out of their territory. When in the holy name of fuck did I say otherwise?
As to your nuclear panics, I couldn't care less about your fear while wimps like you play right into Putin's hand. We need to remain strong while locked and loaded. If Russia plays that hand the consequences must be catastrophic.
https://www.economist.com/europe/2023/06/01/ukraine-gets-its-f-16sWell, there is only one problem, my valiant knight. The only reason why Putin is allowed to live and this war is still raging. Call it "nuclear panics" but this is exactly the state our officials are in.
"We need to remain strong" is a wishful fucking thinking when the White House is busy of keeping Putin in charge of his nukes.
Because god forbid they fall in the wrong hands.
OK, maybe all the above is TL; DR for you, so let me try and make it even easier.
1. As far as I'm concerned, Russia's nukes are already in the wrong hands. We need to work on removing Putin, rather than on keeping him in charge.
2. That said, Putin is a complete and utter coward; he's very unlikely to unleash nuclear weapons, whatever his rhetoric is.
3. We must stop dragging our feet and give the Ukrainians everything they need including F16, long-range HIMARS and ATACMS (and we should've been doing it for a year now).
4. But I'm not optimistic.
Better?
DramaFree11
07-03-23, 03:18
There is a solution fuckwit, RuZZians leave the territory of Ukraine and respect the 1991 borders and treaties they signed. Ask them to stop invading and attacking, not Ukraine to stop defending.Good luck with this. You guys are so out of touch with reality.
Good luck with this. You guys are so out of touch with reality.Says the RuZZbot without any irony.
Xpartan, this isn't the most entertaining thing I've read in the New Yorker, but you'd probably find it a worthwhile read anyway based on some of your posts.
https://www.newyorker.com/news/the-weekend-essay/could-putin-lose-power
It provides the views of some experts on Russia and regime change about what may be in store for Putin. My takeaway is that there's a 50% or greater chance that we're stuck dealing with Putin until he voluntarily "retires" or, more likely, dies of natural causes. So the realpolitik favored by DramaFree and me makes more sense than blind, idealistic support for Ukraine. I'm not saying the latter is necessarily what you favor BTW.
Xpartan, this isn't the most entertaining thing I've read in the New Yorker, but you'd probably find it a worthwhile read anyway based on some of your posts.
https://www.newyorker.com/news/the-weekend-essay/could-putin-lose-power
It provides the views of some experts on Russia and regime change about what may be in store for Putin. My takeaway is that there's a 50% or greater chance that we're stuck dealing with Putin until he voluntarily "retires" or, more likely, dies of natural causes. So the realpolitik favored by DramaFree and me makes more sense than blind, idealistic support for Ukraine. I'm not saying the latter is necessarily what you favor BTW.Why bring Drama into this? He's a paid Russian bot, you aren't. You're just wrong, LOL.
Look, I understand why you and the New Yorker are skeptical (by the way, the author of this piece is a brother of Masha Gessen who wrote a solid book about Putin). But Russia is not a normal country. It's a country of sudden changes, where things seem the most monolith right before the implosion. Just re-read the passages about the Bolshevik revolution and the "smuta".
I give them a year.
And that's generous.
Fuck realpolitic!
It provides the views of some experts on Russia and regime change about what may be in store for Putin. My takeaway is that there's a 50% or greater chance that we're stuck dealing with Putin until he voluntarily "retires" or, more likely, dies of natural causes. So the realpolitik favored by DramaFree and me makes more sense than blind, idealistic support for Ukraine. I'm not saying the latter is necessarily what you favor BTW.Firstly, don't lump yourself in the same bucket as that Muscovite shill Dramafree, read his post history to see what a complete disingenuous fuckwit he is.
Russia will lose the war, and may even lose Crimea (this is still uncertain). After they lose, Putin's hold will be untenable and I would predict the collapse of the Federation, if Crimea is lost, then the collapse is pretty much certain. All the vassal states will have lost both their economic future and their men to a pointless war.
My last visit to Ukraine just over a year ago, oh how I miss my Ukraine. A brief report from my last visit, visited three massage salons Dream (2 occasions), Relax (2 occasions) and Topless. One salon was fair, one salon was good, one salon was absolutely incredible. Spent 10 hours with one girl from Gia, below average experience, my two favorite girls from Gia, Liza who's still on the site and Nina who left maybe a year ago. Called an apartment from the Minuet site, a 19 yr old from Dnipro came for 4 hours, real sweet girl.
Change of subject, the first time I visited Russia (4 trips in total) was May of '92, wonderful time. From what I understand currently, 35 percent of mortgages, 20 percent car loans and 15 percent personal loans are in default in Russia. I believe Russia will collapse (I hope soon), and when it does real estate in Russia may be a good investment; of course, there needs to be some stability in a new government. The reason I mentioned this is because I think the next time I travel to Russia, it will be similar to my '92 visit.
DramaFree11
07-05-23, 00:01
Firstly, don't lump yourself in the same bucket as that Muscovite shill Dramafree, read his post history to see what a complete disingenuous fuckwit he is.
Russia will lose the war, and may even lose Crimea (this is still uncertain). After they lose, Putin's hold will be untenable and I would predict the collapse of the Federation, if Crimea is lost, then the collapse is pretty much certain. All the vassal states will have lost both their economic future and their men to a pointless war.You guys can are in total denial, Ukraine is getting its ass kicked. In you liberal world, this is a win. Ukraine will probably lose Odessa in the next couple of months.
Look, I understand why you and the New Yorker are skeptical (by the way, the author of this piece is a brother of Masha Gessen who wrote a solid book about Putin). But Russia is not a normal country. It's a country of sudden changes, where things seem the most monolith right before the implosion. Just re-read the passages about the Bolshevik revolution and the "smuta".
I give them a year.
And that's generous.
Russia will lose the war, and may even lose Crimea (this is still uncertain). After they lose, Putin's hold will be untenable and I would predict the collapse of the Federation, if Crimea is lost, then the collapse is pretty much certain. All the vassal states will have lost both their economic future and their men to a pointless war.
You guys can are in total denial, Ukraine is getting its ass kicked. In you liberal world, this is a win. Ukraine will probably lose Odessa in the next couple of months.My guess is that this will drag on for years, like Afghanistan (versus the USSR or USA, take your pick) or Vietnam. That's unless the USA and Europe are willing to step up to the plate and put an end to this, by providing Putin a face saving way to exit this mess. That might involve some combination of providing a security guarantee to Ukraine, Ukraine formally ceding Crimea and part of the Donbass to Russia, a guarantee of Ukrainian neutrality, and substantial foreign aid to Ukraine to rebuild.
As DramaFree said, many Ukrainians have been and will be killed and displaced. The only winners will be the western defense contractors and the Iranians and others who supply weapons to Russia.
Having read the New Yorker article, I am now an expert and believe there's a 50/50 chance Putin or his surrogate will rule Russia until Putin dies. Which could be a long time. And what happens after he dies? Well, maybe the same thing that happened in Cuba and Venezuela. Nothing, no change in the behavior of the regime. Patrushev (former head of FSB) and Medvedev (see below) are perhaps his likeliest successors and they're just as or more extreme than Putin.
Russia has massive resources and manpower compared to Ukraine. Right now it's only spending 4. 4% of its GDP on defense. That's less than we did from World War II to 1990. A lot less than we were spending in the 1950's and 1960's. And Putin knows if he just ups and leaves Ukraine, it will weaken his position in Russia. Remember there was an unsuccessful revolution in 1905 when Russia was defeated by Japan. Arguably the Russian withdrawal from Afghanistan was tied to the end of the USSR. And the premature withdrawal of Russia from World War I coincided with the abdication of the Tsar and the Bolshevik Revolution. There's little chance that Putin's going to withdraw from Ukraine unless he's somehow allowed to save face.
And yes, there is the potential for World War III. Russia's former prime minister and president, Dmitry Medvedev, one of Putin's closest cronies, said Russia is ready to use nuclear weapons, more than once. Putin's kind of said the same thing. And they're not just referring to tactical weapons, but also ICBM's.
Presumably though Putin has learned his lesson. This will be repetitious for Xpartan, but I believe Putin is rational, nationalistic and paranoid. I don't think he's bat shit crazy like Hitler, and I don't think he's going to do something like try to take over the Baltic states. He got a lot more than he bargained for when he invaded Ukraine, and won't want to repeat the same mistake.
https://www.newsweek.com/russia-spending-over-85-billion-military-this-year-report-1810181
There is a solution fuckwit, RuZZians leave the territory of Ukraine and respect the 1991 borders and treaties they signed. Ask them to stop invading and attacking, not Ukraine to stop defending.I'd argue that based on the assurances of Baker, Bush, Kohl, Gates and others, the Russians never dreamed NATO would have expanded eastward as far as it did. The Russians felt betrayed. Xpartan disagrees. Please see the Xpartan / Tiny dialogs for more detail.
http://www.internationalsexguide.nl/forum/showthread.php?2467-American-Politics&p=2829022&viewfull=1#post2829022.
http://www.internationalsexguide.nl/forum/showthread.php?2467-American-Politics&p=2829138&viewfull=1#post2829138.
http://www.internationalsexguide.nl/forum/showthread.php?2467-American-Politics&p=2831160&viewfull=1#post2831160.
Russia has massive resources and manpower compared to Ukraine. Right now it's only spending 4. 5% of its GDP on defense. Isolated numbers paint a distorted picture. First, your 4. 5 % has zero credibility because Russians know how to cook the books. When, occasionally, they're not lying, you might see numbers that make some sense.
The government's priorities in 2023 from the draft budget read with crystal clarity. "The head of state has instructed us to take measures to meet the needs of our Armed Forces and military formations," Prime Minister Mikhail Mishustin said. Spending on the military and on security services will grow from 24 percent of budget spending projected for 2022 to almost 33 percent in 2023 (9.5 trillion rubles). Spending on the economy will decrease compared to that in 2022, and the small increase in social spending will be eaten up by inflation.
Financing of the military and security services has never before reached such a large share of the federal budget. Spending on homeland security has almost doubled since 2021. Payments to mobilized forces alone may require about 2 trillion rubles. They are made through the Pension Fund, the costs of which will therefore increase by 19 percent. The share of "secret" budget spending (to make it more difficult to estimate the cost of the war) has increased from 16 percent to 22.4 percent. The financing of patriotic programs in schools has increased sixfold. The elections of 2024 will surely require direct unscheduled payments to the population, which will increase the deficit. https://www.wilsoncenter.org/blog-post/putins-war-costs-shifting-burden-population
But mostly they lie.
Russia is keeping an unprecedented one-third of its budget spending out of the public eye, a stark measure of how a year of war against Ukraine has redrawn government finances and economic priorities.
Classified or unspecified expenditure through March 24 has surged to 2.4 trillion rubles ($31 billion), Finance Ministry data show, more than double the level in the same period a year ago, according to Bloomberg Economicss estimates. Plans set out for 2023 envisaged the budgets secret share at almost a quarter, Bloomberg calculations show. https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2023-03-28/war-and-secretive-spending-is-eating-away-at-russia-s-budget
Look at the diagram in the article while you're at it. 3 trillion rubles are classified, while only 0. 5 and 0. 3 are spent on defense and security respectively. Yeah, right!
To conclude, your official 4. 5 % GDP means exactly dick, as they say in Men in Black, but even that puny number is over 10 times more than they spent in Afghanistan (0. 4 % and please keep in mind that back then they weren't as "creative" with numbers as they are today.
Here are a few more things that make their 4. 5 % miracle number even less impressive.
1. Wholesale thievery. You would presume that outright theft and corruption in the Army are dealt with now that there is a war raging. Well, you'd presume wrong, LOL.
2. 340,000 of armed people along with heavy military equipment are stationed far away from the front lines (National Guards). Guess who get better pay and way better benefits than the cannon fodder they throw at the enemy. Putin will need them to crush mass dissent on the Day X, which he know is coming.
3. $300 billion frozen Russia's Central Bank assets.
4. Sanctions! Yes they sell energy bars to China and India (at a huge discount), but spending rupees and yuan is not exactly straightforward.
5. From January to April 2023 Russia already spent it yearly budget (Russia stopped publishing data on budget spending in June).
And yes, there is the potential for World War III. Russia's former prime minister and president, Dmitry Medvedev, one of Putin's closest cronies, said Russia is ready to use nuclear weapons, more than once. Putin's kind of said the same thing. And they're not just referring to tactical weapons, but also ICBM's.
Yes, there is the potential, but not because of that useless alky. Medvedev might've been a puppet president at one point, but today, he's reduced to a role of an official Kremlin jester. The recent death of Vladimir Zhirinovsky left too much void in the arena of political provocations, so Medvedev was only too eager to apply.
I believe Putin is rational, nationalistic and paranoid. I don't think he's bat shit crazy like Hitler.
Believe what you want, but Hitler wasn't always bat shit crazy. And Putin's days of rational thinking are well behind him. I mean when a dude gets his anus licked incessantly for 20 years -- of course his shit will get to his brain! Come on, that's pure science.
I'd argue that based on the assurances of Baker, Bush, Kohl, Gates and others, the Russians never dreamed NATO would have expanded eastward as far as it did. The Russians felt betrayed. Xpartan disagrees. Please see the Xpartan / Tiny dialogs for more detail.
http://www.internationalsexguide.nl/forum/showthread.php?2467-American-Politics&p=2829022&viewfull=1#post2829022.
http://www.internationalsexguide.nl/forum/showthread.php?2467-American-Politics&p=2829138&viewfull=1#post2829138.
http://www.internationalsexguide.nl/forum/showthread.php?2467-American-Politics&p=2831160&viewfull=1#post2831160.First of all, even if this "Nato Promise" fairytale weren't a Russian propaganda piece, it wouldn't justify Putin's war. So I'm not sure why you had to bring it to this thread.
Secondly, beating a dead horse over and over is cruel. Let the poor animal rest in peace already.
But seriously, what does any lawyer tell you about "verbal contracts"? If it's not in writing, it doesn't exist.
Do you suggest that state leaders are unaware of what's known to any law school graduate?
There is no evidence that Russians were ever OFFICIALLY promised that Nato wouldn't expand to the East. If there had been, you would've linked it already.
Was the question mentioned? Sure. Many times. By serious people in suites and ties.
It doesn't matter.
The Russians aren't idiots. They're cold-blooded and calculated liars and war mongers. You're trying to tell me that Putin believed in some mythical "promises" and "assurances" from Nato while he himself was toying with an idea of joining the Alliance?
Putin Says 'Why Not?' to Russia Joining NATO.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/politics/2000/03/06/putin-says-why-not-to-russia-joining-nato/c1973032-c10f-4bff-9174-8cae673790cd
Gee, man, if you really, truly believe all this nonsense, do I have the only authentic bridge in London to sell for your enjoyment!
Gorbachev said he had never received or asked for that guarantee.
RBTH: One of the key issues that has arisen in connection with the events in Ukraine is NATO expansion into the East. Do you get the feeling that your Western partners lied to you when they were developing their future plans in Eastern Europe? Why didnt you insist that the promises made to you particularly U.S. Secretary of State James Bakers promise that NATO would not expand into the East be legally encoded? I will quote Baker: NATO will not move one inch further east.
M.G.: The topic of NATO expansion was not discussed at all, and it wasnt brought up in those years. I say this with full responsibility. Not a singe Eastern European country raised the issue, not even after the Warsaw Pact ceased to exist in 1991. Western leaders didnt bring it up, either. Another issue we brought up was discussed: making sure that NATOs military structures would not advance and that additional armed forces from the alliance would not be deployed on the territory of the then-GDR after German reunification. Bakers statement, mentioned in your question, was made in that context. Kohl and German Vice Chancellor Hans-Dietrich Genscher talked about it.https://www.rbth.com/international/2014/10/16/mikhail_gorbachev_i_am_against_all_walls_40673.html
And yes, I know that Gorbachev sometimes said other things. Well, he and his foundation didn't live in vacuum. He lived under Vladimir Putin, so I'm not surprised he couldn't always deviate from the party line. However the interview I linked here is from 2014. Crimea's already annexed, and Donbass is aflame.
I think it was very brave of him to tell the truth when the truth was badly needed.
My guess is that this will drag on for years, like Afghanistan (versus the USSR or USA, take your pick) or Vietnam. That's unless the USA and Europe are willing to step up to the plate and put an end to this, by providing Putin a face saving way to exit this mess. That might involve some combination of providing a security guarantee to Ukraine, Ukraine formally ceding Crimea and part of the Donbass to Russia, a guarantee of Ukrainian neutrality, and substantial foreign aid to Ukraine to rebuild.
As DramaFree said, many Ukrainians have been and will be killed and displaced. The only winners will be the western defense contractors and the Iranians and others who supply weapons to Russia.
Having read the New Yorker article, I am now an expert and believe there's a 50/50 chance Putin or his surrogate will rule Russia until Putin dies. Which could be a long time. And what happens after he dies? Well, maybe the same thing that happened in Cuba and Venezuela. Nothing, no change in the behavior of the regime. Patrushev (former head of FSB) and Medvedev (see below) are perhaps his likeliest successors and they're just as or more extreme than Putin.
Russia has massive resources and manpower compared to Ukraine. Right now it's only spending 4. 4% of its GDP on defense. That's less than we did from World War II to 1990. A lot less than we were spending in the 1950's and 1960's. And Putin knows if he just ups and leaves Ukraine, it will weaken his position in Russia. Remember there was an unsuccessful revolution in 1905 when Russia was defeated by Japan. Arguably the Russian withdrawal from Afghanistan was tied to the end of the USSR. And the premature withdrawal of Russia from World War I coincided with the abdication of the Tsar and the Bolshevik Revolution. There's little chance that Putin's going to withdraw from Ukraine unless he's somehow allowed to save face.
And yes, there is the potential for World War III. Russia's former prime minister and president, Dmitry Medvedev, one of Putin's closest cronies, said Russia is ready to use nuclear weapons, more than once. Putin's kind of said the same thing. And they're not just referring to tactical weapons, but also ICBM's.
Presumably though Putin has learned his lesson. This will be repetitious for Xpartan, but I believe Putin is rational, nationalistic and paranoid. I don't think he's bat shit crazy like Hitler, and I don't think he's going to do something like try to take over the Baltic states. He got a lot more than he bargained for when he invaded Ukraine, and won't want to repeat the same mistake.
https://www.newsweek.com/russia-spending-over-85-billion-military-this-year-report-1810181I don't know how many of you here are infact on the ground and in Ukriane.
But I am.
I'm several times a Month close to where the Action is and see alot of things with my own eyes.
Someone here think Russia will win, that's so way of from the real truth as it can be.
You should see the russians POW, they look like shit, bad maintance, bad weapons etc.
The Ukrain army are every month getting more and more well equipped, yes it can be better, but the hard troops get what they need and if you prove yourself you will also get.
Yes there are looses on ukrain side, but in my opinion its still in favor of the Ukrain side we maybe talk 1 to 10 or more.
Russia Used in Jan-Feb 40% of the money the allocated for defence for all 2023, and that's 33.5% of the total national budget in those 2 month).
In 2022 the total use on defence was 17.5% of the National budget.
This cannot go one forever, you already see it in Russia where they can't spend what they need on hospitals, HIV medicin, Etc. Etc.
Its one big Snowball just waiting for social unrest.
To everyone who doubt all this, come and Visit ukrain and feel and speak with people and you will understand that they will not give up.
But Russia at one point will need give up or break in pieces.
You guys can are in total denial, Ukraine is getting its ass kicked. In you liberal world, this is a win. Ukraine will probably lose Odessa in the next couple of months.I'll remember this dumbass, and in September we will remind you about your retarded prediction, that is if you haven't been made into a cube of meat by then.
I'll remember this dumbass, and in September we will remind you about your retarded prediction, that is if you haven't been made into a cube of meat by then.A cube of meat LOLOLOL! SPAM which precisely describes his posts LMAO!
DramaFree11
07-05-23, 15:20
I'll remember this dumbass, and in September we will remind you about your retarded prediction, that is if you haven't been made into a cube of meat by then.Yes, and I said I was wrong. Again at what cost, Ukraine is slowly being destroyed.
-woman / children are leaving the country.
-the men are being killed.
-no one is having babies.
-Europe and other parts of the world are in Recessions.
-NATO is mess and falling apart.
-Putin is as strong as ever, in certain parts of the world even stronger.
-Russia is much stronger then before.
-Ukraine infrastructure is being destroyed.
-China is stronger.
I can go on. Ukraine and there Allie's are getting destroyed and humiliated.
First of all, even if this "Nato Promise" fairytale weren't a Russian propaganda piece, it wouldn't justify Putin's war. So I'm not sure why you had to bring it to this thread.
Secondly, beating a dead horse over and over is cruel. Let the poor animal rest in peace already.
I may have misinterpreted VinDici's post, "RuZZians leave the territory of Ukraine and respect the 1991 borders and treaties they signed. " I thought he was referring to the negotiations and treaty between the west and Russia in 1990 and 1991 that resulted in the unification of Germany. And was part of the reason the Soviet republics disbanded their union and also allowed for the disbandment of the Warsaw Pact. Russia believed it was duped by the west IMHO. You ably presented the other side of the argument. The links were just for VinDici's edification. And yes, maybe he didn't need edifying, because he may have been thinking about something completely different.
I don't know how many of you here are infact on the ground and in Ukriane.
But I am.
Isolated numbers paint a distorted picture. First, your 4. 5 % has zero credibility because Russians know how to cook the books. When, occasionally, they're not lying, you might see numbers that make some sense.Good posts gentlemen. Hestendk, thanks for your "on the ground perspective. " Very interesting, I hope you'll tell us more.
You've made a good case that Russia's military expenditures are actually higher than what they claim. From the Wilson and Bloomberg links though, it looks to me like they're still spending substantially less, both as a % of GDP and the total Russian federal expenditures, than we were in the 1960's. And perhaps around the same or not much more than we were as a % of GDP in the 1970's and 1980's. Furthermore, the numbers in Xpartan's links point towards an actual Russian federal budget deficit of less than 4% of GDP in 2023. Ours was 12% of GDP in 2021 and 5. 4% in 2022.
If you want to verify, please note that Russia's federal government expenditures were typically about 18% of GDP. And these charts show USA Defense expenditures as a % of GDP, and total USA Federal expenditures as a % of GDP.
https://www.macrotrends.net/countries/USA/united-states/military-spending-defense-budget
https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/FYONGDA188S
Russia's Achilles heal may be that it's very dependent on revenues from taxation from oil and gas. I suspect they have a bigger underground economy than we do, so it will be more difficult to raise money from increasing the income tax.
As to sanctions, they didn't work very well for Cuba, Iran or North Korea. I don't think they'll work well on Russia either. As to the $300 billion in reserves, Russia's effectively confiscating western assets as well.
One caveat, if Hestendk's correct that Russia spent 40% of annual budgeted military expenditures in January and February, and Xpartan's right about spending the annual military budget by April, and if they continue spending at that rate, then that's going to be big burden on the country. And possibly DramaFree's right, the Russians may unfortunately make headway in months to come, and many more Ukrainian and Russian lives will be lost, because they're pumping more resources into the war. Where did you get that info? I'm not seeing it in Xpartan's links.
Yes, and I said I was wrong.What about RuZZia dumbfuck, start there before you begin with lies about Ukraine?
-woman / children are leaving the country in droves, running to Argentina to have babies with another nationality, because everyone is disgusted with Orc blood.
-the men are being killed and turned into cubes of meat.
-no one is having babies, because Muscovite cunts are stealing them and taking them back to Mordor to indoctrinate them.
-RuZZia and it's companies are in their worst economic recession and crisis.
-NATO is stronger than ever before with Finland joining and Sweden on the pathway.
-Putin is fucked.
-Russia is fucked.
-Ukraine infrastructure is being destroyed by RuZZians that cannot stop committing war crimes, because they are cowardly pieces of shit.
-China is stronger than Ruzzia which has become its vassal state. RuZZia is to China, what Belarus is to RuZZia, what an own goal.
Yes, and I said I was wrong. Again at what cost, Ukraine is slowly being destroyed.
-woman / children are leaving the country.
-the men are being killed.
-no one is having babies.
-Europe and other parts of the world are in Recessions.
-NATO is mess and falling apart.
-Putin is as strong as ever, in certain parts of the world even stronger.
-Russia is much stronger then before.
-Ukraine infrastructure is being destroyed.
-China is stronger.
I can go on. Ukraine and there Allie's are getting destroyed and humiliated.Lets Debunk most of your shit.
-woman / children are leaving the country.
12 Millions ukrain left in 2022, of those 12 more the 6 Millions are already returned.
Even Woman And Kids come back because most of the 12 Milliosn was infact Woman And Kids.
-the men are being killed.
Its a war this is right, but I still don't know anyone that's been killed OR injuried here, and I Know +100 people.
So the rate is not as big as you wish it is.
-no one is having babies.
Hmmm in 2023 there is expected to be born 2. 2% less Ukrain Children then the year before.
Yes Ukrainians need to make more babies to withhold the population long term, but everyone are aware of this and the government have programs that are encouring more and more to get 2-3 children.
-Europe and other parts of the world are in Recessions.
Europe is in a Technical Recession, that is not the same as an fullblown recession like Russia is in.
Europe have much more to stand with in a recsseion so this is not a problem at the moment.
-NATO is mess and falling apart.
Everyone in Nato are stronglty connected, Everyone use more on military spending and aim for the 2%.
Yes Hungary make some issues, but they not vital for Nato.
And then Turkey which are trying to get something Either F35 or something else from the USA.
-Putin is as strong as ever, in certain parts of the world even stronger.
Maybe in underdeveloped countries like in Africa he is this, but one thing is a Rating, another is real power.
To think Putin have more power now then before, that just insanity.
-Russia is much stronger then before.
Sorry what?
The national budget is in like 60% defict, the Army is poor, they can't even protect their own inland.
They shooting missiles and drones that in 95% of the cases are getting shot down.
-Ukraine infrastructure is being destroyed.
Yes some is getting destroyed, but I can tell you that the infrastructure in general are getting better and better everywhere.
Ukrain even drilling new gass wells every month to prepare to be 100% self suffiant and in longer term cut Russia away from Europe.
-China is stronger.
I think China is same strengt as before, their army is build to maintain the defence in asia, and to try and capture Taiwan, they are not ready for a long war with ex. USA that can maintain armyes half way around the world.
You really need to research on your things before typying nonsense like you just did, or maybe just Come to Ukrain and we can show you what's going on here and why they will win.
DramaFree11
07-06-23, 09:01
Lets Debunk most of your shit.
-woman / children are leaving the country.
12 Millions ukrain left in 2022, of those 12 more the 6 Millions are already returned.
Even Woman And Kids come back because most of the 12 Milliosn was infact Woman And Kids.
-the men are being killed.
Its a war this is right, but I still don't know anyone that's been killed OR injuried here, and I Know +100 people.
So the rate is not as big as you wish it is.
-no one is having babies.
Hmmm in 2023 there is expected to be born 2. 2% less Ukrain Children then the year before.
Yes Ukrainians need to make more babies to withhold the population long term, but everyone are aware of this and the government have programs that are encouring more and more to get 2-3 children.
-Europe and other parts of the world are in Recessions.
Europe is in a Technical Recession, that is not the same as an fullblown recession like Russia is in.
Europe have much more to stand with in a recsseion so this is not a problem at the moment.
-NATO is mess and falling apart.
Everyone in Nato are stronglty connected, Everyone use more on military spending and aim for the 2%.
Yes Hungary make some issues, but they not vital for Nato.
And then Turkey which are trying to get something Either F35 or something else from the USA.
-Putin is as strong as ever, in certain parts of the world even stronger.
Maybe in underdeveloped countries like in Africa he is this, but one thing is a Rating, another is real power.
To think Putin have more power now then before, that just insanity.
-Russia is much stronger then before.
Sorry what?
The national budget is in like 60% defict, the Army is poor, they can't even protect their own inland.
They shooting missiles and drones that in 95% of the cases are getting shot down.
-Ukraine infrastructure is being destroyed.
Yes some is getting destroyed, but I can tell you that the infrastructure in general are getting better and better everywhere.
Ukrain even drilling new gass wells every month to prepare to be 100% self suffiant and in longer term cut Russia away from Europe.
-China is stronger.
I think China is same strengt as before, their army is build to maintain the defence in asia, and to try and capture Taiwan, they are not ready for a long war with ex. USA that can maintain armyes half way around the world.
You really need to research on your things before typying nonsense like you just did, or maybe just Come to Ukrain and we can show you what's going on here and why they will win.You actually have some common sense, unlike the other clowns. Good report. We can agree to differ. We will have all are answers by the end of the summer.
DramaFree11
07-06-23, 09:04
What about RuZZia dumbfuck, start there before you begin with lies about Ukraine?
-woman / children are leaving the country in droves, running to Argentina to have babies with another nationality, because everyone is disgusted with Orc blood.
-the men are being killed and turned into cubes of meat.
-no one is having babies, because Muscovite cunts are stealing them and taking them back to Mordor to indoctrinate them.
-RuZZia and it's companies are in their worst economic recession and crisis.
-NATO is stronger than ever before with Finland joining and Sweden on the pathway.
-Putin is fucked.
-Russia is fucked.
-Ukraine infrastructure is being destroyed by RuZZians that cannot stop committing war crimes, because they are cowardly pieces of shit.
-China is stronger than Ruzzia which has become its vassal state. RuZZia is to China, what Belarus is to RuZZia, what an own goal.This one of the dumbest / ridiculous reports ever. You make Xman and Pauline look conservative and sane. . Well done.
Good report. We can agree to differ. Yeah, it's good to get Hestendk's perspective. He could be a little more civil. He hasn't learned yet what I know from my Ministry, converting progressives to free market capitalism. You can attract more flies with honey than a shotgun. His posts have moderated some of my views.
He's got some good points about NATO becoming stronger and more unified and Russia weaker than before. He's wrong about the 60% deficit though. Russia's numbers like its budget deficit and current account surplus, if you believe them (and Hestendk and Xpartan don't), do not look that bad. Russia's experience in Ukraine may make China think twice about taking over Taiwan. His statement that he doesn't know anyone who died is interesting. USA government estimates are that 42,000 Ukrainian civilians and 20,000 of its armed forces have died. The BBC estimates 69,600+ Russians have died. Anyway, out of a population of 43.8 million, 62,000 deaths are 0. 14% of the population. That's only one out of every 7,000 people.
That said, a net loss of 6 million citizens to emigration out of a population of 43.8 million is huge. I'm reading estimates that the birth rate if nothing changes has gone down to 0. 53 per woman. You need a rate of 2 to avoid population loss. And while Russia may have not wiped out a lot of the infrastructure, it has the capacity to do so. It has the ability to snuff out the whole country and start World War III.
On the news today, they're reporting that State Department personnel are in backchannel communications with Russia, hopefully about putting an end to this. If so, bully for Biden and Blinken.
This one of the dumbest / ridiculous reports ever. You make Xman and Pauline look conservative and sane. . Well done.It's intentional dumbass.
Why expending mental energy against a Z propagandist idiot? There is no debate to be had with with the brain dead. You aren't deserving of actual intellectual effort.
The intention behind all your posts is a continuous stream of lies, parroting of kremlin narratives, whilst not once acknowledging the much worse and egregious behaviour of the Muscovites.
So go fuck yourself.
Yeah, it's good to get Hestendk's perspective. He could be a little more civil. He hasn't learned yet what I know from my Ministry, converting progressives to free market capitalism. You can attract more flies with honey than a shotgun. His posts have moderated some of my views.
He's got some good points about NATO becoming stronger and more unified and Russia weaker than before. He's wrong about the 60% deficit though. Russia's numbers like its budget deficit and current account surplus, if you believe them (and Hestendk and Xpartan don't), do not look that bad. Russia's experience in Ukraine may make China think twice about taking over Taiwan. His statement that he doesn't know anyone who died is interesting. USA government estimates are that 42,000 Ukrainian civilians and 20,000 of its armed forces have died. The BBC estimates 69,600+ Russians have died. Anyway, out of a population of 43.8 million, 62,000 deaths are 0. 14% of the population. That's only one out of every 7,000 people.
That said, a net loss of 6 million citizens to emigration out of a population of 43.8 million is huge. I'm reading estimates that the birth rate if nothing changes has gone down to 0. 53 per woman. You need a rate of 2 to avoid population loss. And while Russia may have not wiped out a lot of the infrastructure, it has the capacity to do so. It has the ability to snuff out the whole country and start World War III.
On the news today, they're reporting that State Department personnel are in backchannel communications with Russia, hopefully about putting an end to this. If so, bully for Biden and Blinken.Birthrate pro Woman is around 1,18 ATM. And its to low, it have to be around 2. If we are thinking the western way.
Ukrain have traditional have had a high unemployment rate, so if ukrain got it up to lets say 1. 8 I think that would be a good target rate, also remember more and more woman in ukrain take less free after a childbirth then before so their AR eincreasing the work capicity.
In Jan-April Russia burned 45 Billions USD mor then they made, they had a budget for 2023 in the Minus of 43 Billions.
Also they are printing money without the market knowing it is the roumor so the budget deficit is bigger then we can calculate.
I had the 60% from other sources that looked everything in.
The total Income Budget for Russia 2023 is 345 Billions, so lets divide that by 12 so every month they should get 28,75 billions in.
The first 4 months they then got 115 Billions in but used 160 Billions So okay that's an overspending of 40% in pure numbers.
Also remember that russia was expecting and calculating with and Gas / Oil price more then 50% higher then what they are getting now.
Thats just plain stupidity and planing was done without looking at the facts.
And yes it is interesting that I don't know anyone that died yet.
I know at least 20 people that are in the armed forces and 4 of them at least are in SOF teams.
I belive the russian dead numbers are much higher then 300.000, what I hear from the front is that they just meat and russia not care about their soldiers.
Russia again today been spotted 300 KM from ukrain sending more T55 in.
On the news today, they're reporting that State Department personnel are in backchannel communications with Russia, hopefully about putting an end to this. If so, bully for Biden and Blinken.After the WWII, Ukrainian partisans kept fighting Stalin's army and security forces for 8 years (in some areas until 1958). They fought a hopeless war in a complete isolation against the vastly superior enemy for 10 years, and they didn't even have their own country, their own armed forces, as well as any military, financial and spiritual help from the rest of the world.
Expecting the Ukrainians to give up now when they have all this (and when Russia's led by a coward who's certainly NOT Stalin) is unrealistic, to put it mildly. Then again, one would need to know at least some bits of Russia's history to understand what the Ukrainians are capable of.
Russia, on the other hand, remembers those days only too well, spewing megatons of hateful propaganda against the Ukrainian nationalists and their leaders of the past. The leaders they murdered or attempted to murder back in the 50's including Russia's #1 enemy to this day -- Stepan Bandera.
Unlike you, I'm not trying to convert anyone, but here is a report (warning: a little technical) about the raise and fall of the insurgency in Ukraine in 1940-1950's. You may want to read at least the post-war part.
https://apps.dtic.mil/sti/pdfs/ADA562947.pdf
That said, I believe that the full withdrawal of Russians from Ukraine will only occur when some kind of a domestic struggle brings Kremlin to its knees.
Birthrate pro Woman is around 1,18 ATM. And its to low, it have to be around 2. If we are thinking the western way.
Ukrain have traditional have had a high unemployment rate, so if ukrain got it up to lets say 1. 8 I think that would be a good target rate, also remember more and more woman in ukrain take less free after a childbirth then before so their AR eincreasing the work capicity.That's thinking out of the box. And it makes sense.
In Jan-April Russia burned 45 Billions USD mor then they made, they had a budget for 2023 in the Minus of 43 Billions.
Also they are printing money without the market knowing it is the roumor so the budget deficit is bigger then we can calculate.
I had the 60% from other sources that looked everything in.
The total Income Budget for Russia 2023 is 345 Billions, so lets divide that by 12 so every month they should get 28,75 billions in.
The first 4 months they then got 115 Billions in but used 160 Billions So okay that's an overspending of 40% in pure numbers.Fair enough, that is about 40%, and it's overspending of 45 billion. Say that goes on for a year at the same rate. Then you have 12/4 x 45 = 135 billion in overspending for the year. Russia's annual GDP on 3/31/2023 was 2.35 trillion USD. So the 135 billion is 5.7% of GDP. That's not a large amount considering they're in a war. For comparison, the USA budget deficit was 10.6% of GDP in 2021, 5.4% in 2022, and the consensus forecast for 2023 to 2025 is 5.4% to 5.7%.
Also remember that russia was expecting and calculating with and Gas / Oil price more then 50% higher then what they are getting now.Good point. Russia is very dependent on oil and gas for tax revenue.
just plain stupidity and planing was done without looking at the facts.
And yes it is interesting that I don't know anyone that died yet.
I know at least 20 people that are in the armed forces and 4 of them at least are in SOF teams.
I belive the russian dead numbers are much higher then 300.000, what I hear from the front is that they just meat and russia not care about their soldiers.
Russia again today been spotted 300 KM from ukrain sending more T55 in.I read somewhere that Russia had lost a large percentage of its tanks and other armaments in the war, and would be hard pressed to make up the shortfall.
I hope this war ends soon.
Again, thanks for sharing your on-the-ground observations.
Unlike you, I'm not trying to convert anyone, but here is a report (warning: a little technical) about the raise and fall of the insurgency in Ukraine in 1940-1950's. You may want to read at least the post-war part.
https://apps.dtic.mil/sti/pdfs/ADA562947.pdf
That said, I believe that the full withdrawal of Russians from Ukraine will only occur when some kind of a domestic struggle brings Kremlin to its knees.It's getting late here Xpartan, I'll try to read it at lunch tomorrow. I'm not sure a domestic struggle will bring the Kremlin to its knees during our lifetimes, so that sounds like a gloomy prognosis.
My Ministry is only for Progressives who haven't seen the truth and the light of Classical Liberalism. Since this thread has little to do with economics, I'm not trying to convert anyone.
Russia's annual GDP on 3/31/2023 was 2.35 trillion USD. So the 135 billion is 5.7% of GDP. That's not a large amount considering they're in a war. For comparison, the USA budget deficit was 10.6% of GDP in 2021, 5.4% in 2022, and the consensus forecast for 2023 to 2025 is 5.4% to 5.7%.What consensus? One third of Russia's budget is classified, LOL. What do you think they're hiding? Are you trying to convince yourself that Russia is a normal country? It's not.
Russia Spending an Estimated $900 Million a Day on Ukraine War.
https://www.newsweek.com/russia-spending-estimated-900-million-day-ukraine-war-1704383
Putin's War in Ukraine Has a Trillion-Dollar Price Tag.
https://www.newsweek.com/russia-spending-trillions-rubles-ukraine-war-1783463
How Putin Cannibalizes Russian Economy to Survive Personally.
https://time.com/6291642/putin-cannibalizes-russian-economy
What consensus? One third of Russia's budget is classified, LOL. What do you think they're hiding? Are you trying to convince yourself that Russia is a normal country? It's not.
Russia Spending an Estimated $900 Million a Day on Ukraine War.
https://www.newsweek.com/russia-spending-estimated-900-million-day-ukraine-war-1704383
Putin's War in Ukraine Has a Trillion-Dollar Price Tag.
https://www.newsweek.com/russia-spending-trillions-rubles-ukraine-war-1783463
How Putin Cannibalizes Russian Economy to Survive Personally.
https://time.com/6291642/putin-cannibalizes-russian-economyGrasping at straws? One of those straws is yours, your Bloomberg link. Another is Hestendk's number. A third is an article from Newsweek, the same source you're quoting. To review, your Bloomberg link estimates the Russian budget deficit will be 3% to 4% of GDP. Hestendk's numbers point towards a budget deficit of 5.7% of GDP. And my Newsweek article says total Russian military spending is 4.4% of GDP.
The consensus is the average analyst's estimate for the USA budget deficit as tracked by Bloomberg. It has nothing to do with Russia.
The $9 trillion estimate for the cost to Russia in one of your links is laughable. The $900 million per day figure may be reasonable, especially if you're including the replacement value of Russia's weapons stockpiles. As I mentioned, I read an article that said Russia was running out of certain munitions and doesn't have the industrial capacity to maintain the pace of its war effort. And 900 million a day, if that's true, will be hard to maintain. It's about 14% of Russian GDP.
So what does that mean, again, if it's true? Russia turns tail and heads home? It starts using tactical nuclear weapons? Hell if I know. The best solution is a cease fire followed by an end to the war.
From what I'm reading, combined military spending by the USA, Europe and Ukraine on the war, including military aid, may be around $120 billion per year. That's $40 billion every 4 months, very close to Hestendk's number for the Russian deficit, the straw you referred to when you quoted my post. If Russia matches the $120 billion in Ukrainian spending and western military aid, it's about 5% of their GDP. Russia can sustain that indefinitely.
Grasping at straws? One of those straws is yours, your Bloomberg link. Another is Hestendk's number. A third is an article from Newsweek, the same source you're quoting. To review, your Bloomberg link estimates the Russian budget deficit will be 3% to 4% of GDP. Hestendk's numbers point towards a budget deficit of 5.7% of GDP. And my Newsweek article says total Russian military spending is 4.4% of GDP.
The consensus is the average analyst's estimate for the USA budget deficit as tracked by Bloomberg. It has nothing to do with Russia.
The $9 trillion estimate for the cost to Russia in one of your links is laughable. The $900 million per day figure may be reasonable, especially if you're including the replacement value of Russia's weapons stockpiles. As I mentioned, I read an article that said Russia was running out of certain munitions and doesn't have the industrial capacity to maintain the pace of its war effort. And 900 million a day, if that's true, will be hard to maintain. It's about 14% of Russian GDP.
So what does that mean, again, if it's true? Russia turns tail and heads home? It starts using tactical nuclear weapons? Hell if I know. The best solution is a cease fire followed by an end to the war.
From what I'm reading, combined military spending by the USA, Europe and Ukraine on the war, including military aid, may be around $120 billion per year. That's $40 billion every 4 months, very close to Hestendk's number for the Russian deficit, the straw you referred to when you quoted my post. If Russia matches the $120 billion in Ukrainian spending and western military aid, it's about 5% of their GDP. Russia can sustain that indefinitely.1. No, Russia can't sustain that indefinitely. You're referring to GDP as if it's a sacred cow. What is GDP? Tanks are GDP. Aircraft are GDP. Mines, bombs, missiles, big arms, small arms, it's all there, in GDP. If the government spends 30 or 50 percent of their budget on war, heightened security, and hysterical propaganda (all TV stations and periodicals in Russia are owned and financed by the government), the numbers don't matter. GDP can be sky-high just because the economy has shifted from making tractors to making tanks (or, more likely in this case, refitting the old ones that had already been written off on the paper), and with 30 percent of the budget classified -- YOU JUST DON'T KNOW how much exactly the government spends on war. But what anyone in Russia who's not an idiot knows, it's a lot and it's unsustainable.
The quality of the Russian military hardware is also dubious. There are no more legit ways of getting western components, and Russian economy depends on everything. Russian hardware is not just inferior to the West, it's light years behind. They can't build modern tanks or aircraft any longer. They started bringing to front lines T55 -- that's from 1940's! Their bombers and fighters are still superior to Ukraine's, but vastly inferior to even outdated F16 if -- BIG IF -- Ukraine finally gets them. Then it's the reckoning time.
2. The 9 trillion quote was in rubles. At the time of the publication it was $126 billions.
3. "Followed by peace" is not an option. There are two realistic options. To keep supporting Ukraine until they win and to stop supporting them with full understanding that they won't stop fighting. The second option would be a disaster. For us (see #4).
4. I don't know what it is, your stubbornness, some kind of deep-seated Russophilia, or crypto-admiration of Putin, but you're fundamentally wrong. Betraying Ukraine now when they're winning and helping war criminal Putin survive this calamity he started, would be, first and foremost, our own defeat, and not Ukraine's. Am I happy that Roosevelt wasn't as "fiscally responsible" as you guys.
I don't know what it is, your stubbornness, some kind of deep-seated Russophilia, or crypto-admiration of Putin, but you're fundamentally wrong. Betraying Ukraine now when they're winning and helping war criminal Putin survive this calamity he started, would be, first and foremost, our own defeat, and not Ukraine's. Am I happy that Roosevelt wasn't as "fiscally responsible" as you guys.https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12277393/Democrats-horrified-Biden-sending-cluster-bombs-Ukraine.html
https://youtu.be/C3_0GqPvr4U
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12277393/Democrats-horrified-Biden-sending-cluster-bombs-Ukraine.html
https://youtu.be/C3_0GqPvr4UIt's a bit interesting that you suddenly started posting here after Q stopped and are hugely Pro-Russian.
Since you are pointing out the DPCIMs that the US will provide to Ukraine, I would love to hear your opinion on the extensive and continued use of cluster munitions and more recently chemical weapons by the Russian armies? Also would be very good to know your stance on the kidnapped children, which is reported to be more than 500,000, who have been taken from Ukraine to be "educated" in Russia.
Please enlighten us?
Xpartan is correct, any result other than Ukraine winning back its land back to the 2014 borders at a minimum would be a catastrophic loss for the Western nations and call into question the efficacy of NATO. Russia can withdraw wherever it likes, there is no sword of damocles on the Nation, Putin on the other hand.
It's a bit interesting that you suddenly started posting here after Q stopped and are hugely Pro-Russian.
Since you are pointing out the DPCIMs that the US will provide to Ukraine, I would love to hear your opinion on the extensive and continued use of cluster munitions and more recently chemical weapons by the Russian armies? Also would be very good to know your stance on the kidnapped children, which is reported to be more than 500,000, who have been taken from Ukraine to be "educated" in Russia.
Please enlighten us?
Xpartan is correct, any result other than Ukraine winning back its land back to the 2014 borders at a minimum would be a catastrophic loss for the Western nations and call into question the efficacy of NATO. Russia can withdraw wherever it likes, there is no sword of damocles on the Nation, Putin on the other hand.Hugely pro-Russian? You completely mischaracterize what I wrote.
Of course I don't approve of the use of cluster munitions, chemical weapons or kidnapping. Yes, you have righteousness on your side. And yes, Russia and the Ukraine have already used cluster bombs on each other, so this is nothing new. As a USA Citizen I don't approve of my country using cluster bombs or providing them to other countries. I also don't approve of capital punishment, although I imagine that analogy is lost on you.
According to the press, one of the reasons the USA is providing cluster bombs is because the USA's supplies of certain other munitions is running low, as a result of military aid to Ukraine. The USA no longer manufactures cluster bombs, and I believe the last time it used them was 20 years ago. We're unlikely to use them in the future, on humanitarian grounds. But apparently it's OK to give them away.
Your, Zelensky's and others position that this cannot end until Russia withdraws to pre-2014 borders is a recipe for an endless war. And it's not fair to the people of Crimea, and probably some parts of the Donbass, where the majority want to be part of Russia. And, while they may not recognize it yet, it's not in the best interest of other Ukrainians, as it prevents a peace agreement that assures the country's security.
A peace agreement need not call into question the efficacy of NATO. It could involve a side deal with Ukraine where NATO guarantees its security.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C3_0GqPvr4U
Your, Zelensky's and others position that this cannot end until Russia withdraws to pre-2014 borders is a recipe for an endless war. And it's not fair to the people of Crimea, and probably some parts of the Donbass, where the majority want to be part of Russia. And, while they may not recognize it yet, it's not in the best interest of other Ukrainians, as it prevents a peace agreement that assures the country's security.
A peace agreement need not call into question the efficacy of NATO. It could involve a side deal with Ukraine where NATO guarantees its security.I do not think it is possible for you to conclude that there are parts of Donbass where the majority want to be part of Russia. Where are you getting this information? Was it from the "election" results, what is your opinion on the "referenda" conducted in Donetsk and Luhansk?
Allowing Russia to leave this conflict with something more than what they had previously will destroy any credibility for NATO as guarantors of peace. How would this even be possible, when the US and the UK did not step in when Russian broke the Budapest memoranda? Ukraine would be dependent on the whims of whoever was in charge and if Trump wins the next election, he has already stated he will try to force Ukraine to cede territory.
It is certainly not up to the likes of you (or me for that matter) to tell Ukrainians what is in their best interests, they have made it clear they want self determination, and the majority of Ukrainians are strongly opposed to ceding territory to Russia.
Given that the Russians continually lie and also break each and every accord they sign, I would say it is not possible to make any deals with them at all. If they are not completely exterminated from Ukrainian land, they will most likely regroup, and try again as soon as they can, and if they cannot do it via military means, they will employ all their soft power and troll factory resources to destablize Ukraine, and continue trying to sow discord in Europe and the US. This is not an outcome I want to see.
We have seen time and again that appeasement does not work. It will not work here. This conflict may span more years, however during that time, Russia will become more and more of a pariah, and during that time each Western power is doing all they can to remove any dependencies on their resources, which means that income for Russia will only shrink, not matter what the oil and gas price.
Russia as it is now is a dangerous and belligerent state, and I have had my eyes opened and fully agree with my friends in the Baltics and Poland, that they are not to be trusted in any way.
Should the Federation break up, only then will there be a chance for long term peaceful relations with Russia, but until then we need to give Ukraine everything it needs to defeat the invaders / occupiers / war criminals.
I do not think it is possible for you to conclude that there are parts of Donbass where the majority want to be part of Russia. Where are you getting this information? Was it from the "election" results, what is your opinion on the "referenda" conducted in Donetsk and Luhansk?Please see this article from 2019.
https://www.kyivpost.com/post/7557
"Only 5.1 percent of people living in the Russia-controlled parts of Donetsk and Luhansk regions want Ukraine to regain control over the territories. Half (50.9 percent) want a union with Russia and another 13.4 percent said the region should accede to Russia with a "special status." For the whole of Donbas, including its Ukraine-controlled areas, 49.6 percent want it to become part of Russia, with another 13.3 percent choosing such a scenario with a "special status" for Donbas. A fifth (19.2 percent) see Donbas as part of Ukraine."
So apparently 50.9% wanted to live in a Russian oblast, and another 13.4% in something like a Russian territory (e.g. like Puerto Rico in the USA). Only 5.1% wanted to live in a Ukrainian controlled oblast.
I don't know much about the referenda.
Allowing Russia to leave this conflict with something more than what they had previously will destroy any credibility for NATO as guarantors of peace. How would this even be possible, when the US and the UK did not step in when Russian broke the Budapest memoranda? Russia's gotten a lot more than what it bargained for when it decided to invade Ukraine. NATO, the west and Ukraine must have much more credibility in Russia's eyes. Putin is rational. Seeing the cohesiveness of the west and the expansion of NATO to include Finland, he must be less enthusiastic about his adventures outside the Russian republic, or at least those that he believes will attract the west's attention.
I don't know the history of the Budapest memoranda, but suspect they were intended to protect Ukraine from the West more so than from Russia. Russia believes it was betrayed by NATO and the USA, when NATO expanded eastward after 1990, and Putin who's nationalistic and somewhat paranoid has unfortunately looked to correct this. If the USA and UK had committed troops to Ukraine as you apparently suggest we could be dead by now. Probably not, but it's possible.
Ukraine would be dependent on the whims of whoever was in charge and if Trump wins the next election, he has already stated he will try to force Ukraine to cede territory.Agreed.
It is certainly not up to the likes of you (or me for that matter) to tell Ukrainians what is in their best interests, they have made it clear they want self determination, and the majority of Ukrainians are strongly opposed to ceding territory to Russia.If the USA and Europeans are mostly funding the war effort they should have a say. And should IMHO push for an end to the war in a way that provides security for Ukrainians.
Given that the Russians continually lie and also break each and every accord they sign, I would say it is not possible to make any deals with them at all. If they are not completely exterminated from Ukrainian land, they will most likely regroup, and try again as soon as they can, and if they cannot do it via military means, they will employ all their soft power and troll factory resources to destablize Ukraine, and continue trying to sow discord in Europe and the US. This is not an outcome I want to see.Yes, Russia has and probably will continue to employ soft power and troll factories to destabilize Ukraine and sow discord in the Europe and the USA. It didn't have to be this way. If the west had pursued friendlier relations with Russia after the breakup of the USSR, maybe even making Russia a part of NATO as proposed by Putin in 2000, the world would be in a lot better shape. Perhaps Russia would look a lot like Hungary today, semi-autocratic but inside the tent instead of outside.
We have seen time and again that appeasement does not work. It will not work here. This conflict may span more years, however during that time, Russia will become more and more of a pariah, and during that time each Western power is doing all they can to remove any dependencies on their resources, which means that income for Russia will only shrink, not matter what the oil and gas price.
Russia as it is now is a dangerous and belligerent state, and I have had my eyes opened and fully agree with my friends in the Baltics and Poland, that they are not to be trusted in any way.
Should the Federation break up, only then will there be a chance for long term peaceful relations with Russia, but until then we need to give Ukraine everything it needs to defeat the invaders / occupiers / war criminals.OK, you're much more realistic than I thought you were about how long this may last. And maybe I'm an optimist about what the future holds after this war is over. I hope not.
https://youtu.be/C3_0GqPvr4U
Given that the Russians continually lie and also break each and every accord they sign, I would say it is not possible to make any deals with them at all. If they are not completely exterminated from Ukrainian land, they will most likely regroup, and try again as soon as they can, and if they cannot do it via military means, they will employ all their soft power and troll factory resources to destablize Ukraine, and continue trying to sow discord in Europe and the US. This is not an outcome I want to see.
We have seen time and again that appeasement does not work. It will not work here. This conflict may span more years, however during that time, Russia will become more and more of a pariah, and during that time each Western power is doing all they can to remove any dependencies on their resources, which means that income for Russia will only shrink, not matter what the oil and gas price.
Russia as it is now is a dangerous and belligerent state, and I have had my eyes opened and fully agree with my friends in the Baltics and Poland, that they are not to be trusted in any way.Any peace agreement with Russia other than "please-don't-shoot-at-us-while-we're-getting-out" (like the one that ended the war in Afghanistan) is pointless.
Please see this article from 2019.
https://www.kyivpost.com/post/7557
"Only 5.1 percent of people living in the Russia-controlled parts of Donetsk and Luhansk regions want Ukraine to regain control over the territories. Half (50.9 percent) want a union with Russia and another 13.4 percent said the region should accede to Russia with a "special status." For the whole of Donbas, including its Ukraine-controlled areas, 49.6 percent want it to become part of Russia, with another 13.3 percent choosing such a scenario with a "special status" for Donbas. A fifth (19.2 percent) see Donbas as part of Ukraine."
So apparently 50.9% wanted to live in a Russian oblast, and another 13.4% in something like a Russian territory (e.g. like Puerto Rico in the USA). Only 5.1% wanted to live in a Ukrainian controlled oblast.
I don't know much about the referenda.You bring up a poll 3 years before the start of the war? Facepalm! No further comment needed.
Russia's gotten a lot more than what it bargained for when it decided to invade Ukraine. NATO, the west and Ukraine must have much more credibility in Russia's eyes. Putin is rational. Seeing the cohesiveness of the west and the expansion of NATO to include Finland, he must be less enthusiastic about his adventures outside the Russian republic, or at least those that he believes will attract the west's attention.
I don't know the history of the Budapest memoranda, but suspect they were intended to protect Ukraine from the West more so than from Russia. Russia believes it was betrayed by NATO and the USA, when NATO expanded eastward after 1990, and Putin who's nationalistic and somewhat paranoid has unfortunately looked to correct this. If the USA and UK had committed troops to Ukraine as you apparently suggest we could be dead by now. Probably not, but it's possible.The expansion of NATO argument has been debunked hard, I can't believe you're bring this up now. Facepalm!
"We could be dead by now" "It's possible".
Given the evidence before our eyes of the Russian army performance versus deprecated NATO arms, if there had been a kinetic war, Russia would have been fucked hard. So yes it's "possible", but in the sense that an asteroid could hit our heads tomorrow.
If the west had pursued friendlier relations with Russia after the breakup of the USSR, maybe even making Russia a part of NATO as proposed by Putin in 2000, the world would be in a lot better shape. Perhaps Russia would look a lot like Hungary today, semi-autocratic but inside the tent instead of outside.Wow a lot of parroting of Kremlin narratives. In line with the Kremlin narrative you also have neglected to explain why Russia didn't just trade and become an equal partner instead of secretly fucking with everyone and invading it's neighbours. As Kasparov predicted, putting a former KGB agent in charge is not going to work out well.
NATO is setup to counter the "chimpanzee with a machine gun" that is the Russian state. Please explain how admitting Putin into NATO and sharing all of our weapons technologies and strategies would have been a good idea?
OK, you're much more realistic than I thought you were about how long this may last. And maybe I'm an optimist about what the future holds after this war is over. I hope not.You have a lot of disingenuous arguments, but at least try to engage in debate, unlike the other pair of absolute fuckheads. You'll find people here are not completely blind to the realities of what is happening, however it is not constructive to engage in debate with Z propagandists.
You bring up a poll 3 years before the start of the war? Facepalm! No further comment needed.Would you trust a poll after the start of the war in "Russian controlled parts of Donetsk and Luhansk," even if conducted by respected Ukrainian institutions like Dzerkalo Tyzhnia?
The expansion of NATO argument has been debunked hard, I can't believe you're bring this up now. Facepalm!Yes, the Slavic Studies Council at the National Securities Archive at George Washington University did debunk your side of the argument hard.
https://nsarchive.gwu.edu/briefing-book/russia-programs/2017-12-12/nato-expansion-what-gorbachev-heard-western-leaders-early
Wikipedia presents both sides of the argument. Mine's more compelling.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Controversy_in_Russia_regarding_the_legitimacy_of_eastward_NATO_expansion
Wow a lot of parroting of Kremlin narratives. In line with the Kremlin narrative you also have neglected to explain why Russia didn't just trade and become an equal partner instead of secretly fucking with everyone and invading it's neighbours. As Kasparov predicted, putting a former KGB agent in charge is not going to work out well.
NATO is setup to counter the "chimpanzee with a machine gun" that is the Russian state. Please explain how admitting Putin into NATO and sharing all of our weapons technologies and strategies would have been a good idea?Firstly if Russia had been on a path to NATO not long after the USSR disintegrated and Yeltsin became president, Putin might never have been elected, or at least his views might be very different today. Yes, it would have been a long process, but well worth it if it had succeeded.
I'm no expert on this. Yuriy Davydov, NATO Research Fellow, was. Perhaps you could debunk what he said. For example, that "voluntary mutual co-operation (with NATO) in the field of security would be a key to assertion of democratic values" in Russia. Or that "the final outcome of Russia joining NATO would be the establishment of an integrated, structurally formed security system of free and democratic states on the vast territories from Vancouver to Vladivostok. It could contain dozens of states that never fight against each other, thus establishing an extensive peace zone and exerting restraining influence on the surrounding areas. This system could to a certain extent become a model of comprehensive international security system. ".
https://www.nato.int/acad/fellow/98-00/davydov.pdf
You have a lot of disingenuous arguments, but at least try to engage in debate, unlike the other pair of absolute fuckheads. You'll find people here are not completely blind to the realities of what is happening, however it is not constructive to engage in debate with Z propagandists.Treat them with respect and they most likely will engage respectfully.
https://youtu.be/C3_0GqPvr4U
Yes, the Slavic Studies Council at the National Securities Archive at George Washington University did debunk your side of the argument hard.
https://nsarchive.gwu.edu/briefing-book/russia-programs/2017-12-12/nato-expansion-what-gorbachev-heard-western-leaders-earlyAnd Gorbachev debunked your Council.
The topic of NATO expansion was not discussed at all, and it wasnt brought up in those years. I say this with full responsibility. Not a singe Eastern European country raised the issue, not even after the Warsaw Pact ceased to exist in 1991. Western leaders didnt bring it up, either. Another issue we brought up was discussed: making sure that NATOs military structures would not advance and that additional armed forces from the alliance would not be deployed on the territory of the then-GDR after German reunification. Bakers statement, mentioned in your question, was made in that context. Kohl and German Vice Chancellor Hans-Dietrich Genscher talked about it.
Firstly if Russia had been on a path to NATO not long after the USSR disintegrated and Yeltsin became president, Putin might never have been elected, or at least his views might be very different today. Yes, it would have been a long process, but well worth it if it had succeeded.Sure, why not flip a bird to all East European nations by bringing in the same crazy bear they are seeking protection from? I mean, do these people think they matter? Huh!
I might have an even better idea for you. Let's start hiring abusive husbands and boyfriends for Domestic Violence shelters. I'm sure that would work out just fine.
I'm no expert on this. Yuriy Davydov, NATO Research Fellow, was. Perhaps you could debunk what he said. For example, that "voluntary mutual co-operation (with NATO) in the field of security would be a key to assertion of democratic values" in Russia. So that's what realpolitic is -- pipe dreams galore.
Treat them with respect and they most likely will engage respectfully.Propagandists are the lowest form of life on this planet. Not happening.
Wow a lot of parroting of Kremlin narratives.That's what he's been doing daily for many months now on the American Politics thread in the ISG "Opinions" forum while calling himself a centrist. He's been debunked from here to Sunday then recently came to this thread to restart even though he's never been to Ukraine. Likely he discovered this discussion by searching the post histories of people he's been going back in forth with on the other thread.
For example he has ignored all that facts that clearly debunk the notion that Russia was given an oral promise regarding no NATO expansion into Eastern Europe. It's plainly false, but even if true only a complete fool wouldn't insist on getting something so important in writing.
https://hls.harvard.edu/today/there-was-no-promise-not-to-enlarge-nato/
https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2022/feb/28/candace-owens/fact-checking-claims-nato-us-broke-agreement-again/
https://theconversation.com/ukraine-the-history-behind-russias-claim-that-nato-promised-not-to-expand-to-the-east-177085
So what can you do with someone who digs in online, ignores all corrections and keeps repeating the same fallacious arguments over and over? Ultimately all you can do is ignore them.
https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_nauseam
That's what he's been doing daily for many months now on the American Politics thread in the ISG "Opinions" forum while calling himself a centrist. He's been debunked from here to Sunday then recently came to this thread to restart even though he's never been to Ukraine. Likely he discovered this discussion by searching the post histories of people he's been going back in forth with on the other thread.
For example he has ignored all that facts that clearly debunk the notion that Russia was given an oral promise regarding no NATO expansion into Eastern Europe. It's plainly false, but even if true only a complete fool wouldn't insist on getting something so important in writing.
https://hls.harvard.edu/today/there-was-no-promise-not-to-enlarge-nato/
https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2022/feb/28/candace-owens/fact-checking-claims-nato-us-broke-agreement-again/
https://theconversation.com/ukraine-the-history-behind-russias-claim-that-nato-promised-not-to-expand-to-the-east-177085
So what can you do with someone who digs in online, ignores all corrections and keeps repeating the same fallacious arguments over and over? Ultimately all you can do is ignore them.
https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_nauseamFair enough. I don't want to intrude upon your private war fest.
Just one last thing for Xpartan first though.
And Gorbachev debunked your Council.As communicated to you earlier.
Gorbachev in 2008:
"The Americans promised that Nato wouldn't move beyond the boundaries of Germany after the Cold War but now half of central and eastern Europe are members, so what happened to their promises? It shows they cannot be trusted."
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/russia/1933223/Gorbachev-US-could-start-new-Cold-War.html
Gorbachev, from 2009:
"Kohl, US Secretary of State James Baker and others assured me that NATO would not move an inch east. The Americans didn't stick to that, and the Germans didn't care. Maybe they even rubbed their hands at how well the Russians were ripped off. What did it bring? It's just that the Russians no longer trust Western promises."
https://www.bild.de/politik/2009/bild-medienpreis/die-deutschen-waren-nicht-aufzuhalten-7864098.bild.html
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C3_0GqPvr4U
Treat them with respect and they most likely will engage respectfully.They are a pair of cunts. The interactions with them are the same as with the Russian State, respectful engagement made no difference, both of those fuckheads ignored any debate, lied over and over again, and spread falsehoods and propaganda. Next time read the history of the thread before telling us to show respect.
Just one last thing for Xpartan first though.
As communicated to you earlier.
Gorbachev in 2008:
"The Americans promised that Nato wouldn't move beyond the boundaries of Germany after the Cold War but now half of central and eastern Europe are members, so what happened to their promises? It shows they cannot be trusted."
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/russia/1933223/Gorbachev-US-could-start-new-Cold-War.html
Gorbachev, from 2009:
"Kohl, US Secretary of State James Baker and others assured me that NATO would not move an inch east. The Americans didn't stick to that, and the Germans didn't care. Maybe they even rubbed their hands at how well the Russians were ripped off. What did it bring? It's just that the Russians no longer trust Western promises."
https://www.bild.de/politik/2009/bild-medienpreis/die-deutschen-waren-nicht-aufzuhalten-7864098.bild.html
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C3_0GqPvr4UAnd as communicated to you, Tiny, I'm well aware that Gorby gave different accounts on different occasions, but his earlier accounts can be dismissed with prejudice for a simple reason: he and his foundation had to coexist in the same country with Putin right after Putin's 2007 Munich speech launched Russia's most rancid anti-Nato campaign since the Cold War. Thus, Gorbachev's 2008 and 2009 interviews should be considered strictly a way to appease his increasingly volatile and totalitarian chieftain.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007_Munich_speech_of_Vladimir_Putin
In 2011 when Putin's intent to usurp power indefinitely became abundantly clear, Gorbachev publicly denounced Putin and repeated his accusations the following years.
So it only stands to reason that Gorbachev in 2008 and 2009 doesn't hold a candle to Gorbachev in 2015.
And even beyond Gorby's own words, you've been offered enough evidence that there have never been any agreements and / or promises not to extend Nato beyond the borders of Germany. If you can't except the facts, I don't think there is anything else that can be done about it.
Kremlin propaganda / false information has fueled an unprovoked invasion of a sovereign land while directly targeting and murdering civilians with precision weapons. This has also involved the deportation and indoctrination of about 200 K Ukrainian children. Their false narratives are no more worthy of respect than Holocaust deniers. Plus respect wouldn't do any good anyway as you can't reason with such people while they'd never honor any agreements. But we are covering ground that was covered long ago, and in greater detail. Anyone interested can go back to the start of the war and forward, chronologically in this thread.
P.S. Regarding the Russian speakers in the Donbass that prefer Russia, it's a good thing that they have a short journey, whether by car or foot. Get out of Ukraine and don't let the door hit you in the ass. It's easy. Go be Russian. A lot of Russian speakers were planted in that area since the Stalinist era famine that killed off millions of Ukrainians.
And even beyond Gorby's own words, you've been offered enough evidence that there have never been any agreements and / or promises not to extend Nato beyond the borders of Germany. If you can't except the facts, I don't think there is anything else that can be done about it.That gwu website is, as even if some one term wonder Herbert Walker Bush administration official made some no eastward expansion statement over a cup of coffee it's as useless as tits on a boar hog. Little Vlad and everyone else knows that. There's no US official including the president that can make unilateral policies for NATO. Of course nothing is in writing plus the Warsaw Pact was still in place at that time, setting context. Viewed in the best possible light Russia still has no leg to stand on plus no right to any sphere of influence with an economy about the size of Texas.
It's ironic that Russia complains about an agreement that was never made while clearly breaking one themselves with their invasion.
https://www.nytimes.com/2022/01/09/us/politics/russia-ukraine-james-baker.html
A couple days ago, Mr. Pu had a meeting with Irkutsk Governor Mr. Kobzev. In the course of sucking up to the boss, Mr. Kobzev gave him a photograph depicting a group of fallen soldiers and said: "We have 192 citizens of Irkutsk awarded with state awards. Orders, medals. Of these, the youngest, Hero of Russia, is Private Eduard Dyakonov, who died in Mariupol in March last year. He covered a grenade with his body, thereby saving his fellow soldiers. This is very valuable for us, for us they are all heroes, they are in our memory, in our hearts. ".
Mr. Pu responds under his breath: "Tell them I said Hello. ".
Not a joke!
https://twitter.com/i/status/1681328245885530113
The hardest part to me was to believe that the transcript of this meeting is still on Putin's official website -- after every Twitter and Youtube pandit has had their fun with that. But here it is.
The primary source:
http://kremlin.ru/events/president/news/71688
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DAJ5vjHEvtI&t=107s
I watched this guys video for one minute and had to click out. Although too cowardly to fight on the front line, he's waging a propaganda war against Russia while no doubt safely nailing toots in Kiev. A real hero of Ukraine.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DAJ5vjHEvtI&t=107s
I watched this guys video for one minute and had to click out. But of course you did. You're a Putin fanboy, why would you have a different reaction?
I watched this guys video...Why not just post in the Russia forum and tell your good buddies how awesome it is to kill Ukrainians. Fuck off out of here you prick.
Why not just post in the Russia forum and tell your good buddies how awesome it is to kill Ukrainians. Fuck off out of here you prick.I can tell you're a vile American VinDick and I can tell the youtuber I posted about is the same vile POS.
I can tell...Everyone can tell you're a Rii-tard, and wipe your dirty mouth, you still have cum dripping from the corners from sucking all those RuZZian dicks.
Everyone can tell you're a Rii-tard, and wipe your dirty mouth, you still have cum dripping from the corners from sucking all those RuZZian dicks.Now that we know who you are, how much do you pay for a girl?
Now that we know who you are, how much do you pay for a girl?Happy to explain it to you Rii-tard. They pay me. I just show them the dumb shit you post here, and they laugh so hard at the entertainment, they suck my dick and give me a little extra for printing out a screenshot.
I got a rush when I heard the news about Prigo. The Russian way.
Viva La Putin
I got a rush when I heard the news about Prigo. The Russian way.You poor guy. May I suggest Hydrocortisone?
But in seriousness, you're 100% right.
First, she flees the capital the moment her former chef announces a March on Moscow with a HUGE, HUGE army of 5,000 scoundrels.
No, I'm sorry. First, she shits her pants, then flees the capital.
Next, after she's out of danger, she sends the chef a dinner invite and blows him out of sky. And 10 more people with him, just for being around. Wrong place, wrong time, nothing personal.
No seriously, you're right. That's very Russian way.
Totally.
I do have a question, though.
Why did you turn Putin into a woman? Is she really?
I got a rush when I heard the news about Prigo. The Russian way.And the Rii-Tard is back again. Why post this on the Ukrainian board and not the Russian one?
John Clayton
08-24-23, 16:10
And the Rii-Tard is back again. Why post this on the Ukrainian board and not the Russian one?I was just thinking about the respite we have recently from the pro Russian bots. Now that Prizgoshin is gone who will be paying them?
I was just thinking about the respite we have recently from the pro Russian bots. Now that Prizgoshin is gone who will be paying them?For some reason they see it as their patriotic duty to post in the UA forum of a mongering site. They should stick to their Telegram groups and fuck off. Rii-Tard must be sucking down that copium dick real deep about now.
For some reason they see it as their patriotic duty to post in the UA forum of a mongering site. They should stick to their Telegram groups and fuck off. Rii-Tard must be sucking down that copium dick real deep about now.It's hardly about patriotism. Trolling maybe.
It's hardly about patriotism. Trolling maybe.I think it is about Patriotism, since they are trolling on behalf of their Mafia state in the sub for Ukraine. They could discuss the war in the Russian sub just as easily, but none of them has ever said a word there about it. We are however in agreement, RuZZians posting here is pure trolling and nothing constructive.
No, not Trump, not DeSantis.
Host Evgeny Popov noted, We should take a closer look at this Mr. Ramaswamy. The last time, we had installed President Trump for Americans, but our bet didnt quite work out. Why not try again? Lets give it another try and see how Ramaswamy will perform, in case Trump doesnt manage to win the post of the president. Perhaps recalling that Russian TV programs can also be viewed abroad, he quickly added, "Just kidding. "
Yep, kidding.
https://www.thedailybeast.com/trump-remains-russias-favorite-but-goper-vivek-ramaswami-is-new-no2
DramaFree11
09-02-23, 01:19
No, not Trump, not DeSantis.
Perhaps recalling that Russian TV programs can also be viewed abroad, he quickly added, "Just kidding. "
Yep, kidding.
https://www.thedailybeast.com/trump-remains-russias-favorite-but-goper-vivek-ramaswami-is-new-no2XMan what do you think this war accomplishing? Ukraine is getting there ass kicked and there country is being destroyed. Russian economy is doing much better then most of the world. Sanctions have failed miserably.
They In your crazy liberal world Ukraine is winning.
XMan what do you think this war accomplishing? Ukraine is getting there ass kicked and there country is being destroyed. Russian economy is doing much better then most of the world. Sanctions have failed miserably.
They In your crazy liberal world Ukraine is winning.Putin will have you arrested and put in jail for 10 years for calling it a war. Its a special military retreat.
Russias economy is in the toilet. They can't use any of the rupees India pay for oil so they only have China as a friend that is just as likely to invade siberia and sieze their oilfields as support their special miltary defeat.
If Russia was winning why are they constantly in retreat? If Russia had a modicum of capability they would be in Kiev in control. The fact is that soon the Sea of Azov will be in fire control of Ukrainian forces and all the south including crimea will be isolated and once the ammo runs out that's the end. Putin will be taking flying lessons from a tall building while Ukraine mops up the north east.
Of course Neocons are constantly on the wrong side of reality.
DramaFree11
09-02-23, 14:25
Putin will have you arrested and put in jail for 10 years for calling it a war. Its a special military retreat.
Russias economy is in the toilet. They can't use any of the rupees India pay for oil so they only have China as a friend that is just as likely to invade siberia and sieze their oilfields as support their special miltary defeat.
If Russia was winning why are they constantly in retreat? If Russia had a modicum of capability they would be in Kiev in control. The fact is that soon the Sea of Azov will be in fire control of Ukrainian forces and all the south including crimea will be isolated and once the ammo runs out that's the end. Putin will be taking flying lessons from a tall building while Ukraine mops up the north east.
Of course Neocons are constantly on the wrong side of reality.Wow, you are smoking the same crap Xman is. You are in total denial. Keep watching CNN and the BBC. Unlike you clowns I want a peace and settlement.
John Clayton
09-02-23, 16:46
...Russian economy is doing much better then most of the world. Sanctions have failed miserably...There is a ceiling on truth, but disinformation and lies expand without limit.
I was just thinking about the respite we have recently from the pro Russian bots. Now that Prizgoshin is gone who will be paying them?It seems the respite is over. They probably reorganized, put another guy in charge of the Internet Research Agency or whatever they call it nowadays and figured out how to resume payroll. I swear, though, they must've never had another employee as dumb and lazy as Drama. Even if they pay him 100 rubles an hour, that's already too much.
Putin will have you arrested and put in jail for 10 years for calling it a war. Its a special military retreat.
Russias economy is in the toilet. They can't use any of the rupees India pay for oil so they only have China as a friend that is just as likely to invade siberia and sieze their oilfields as support their special miltary defeat.
If Russia was winning why are they constantly in retreat? If Russia had a modicum of capability they would be in Kiev in control. The fact is that soon the Sea of Azov will be in fire control of Ukrainian forces and all the south including crimea will be isolated and once the ammo runs out that's the end. Putin will be taking flying lessons from a tall building while Ukraine mops up the north east.
Of course Neocons are constantly on the wrong side of reality.The President of RF is not in charge of prosecution, in the same way like the POTUS is not in charge. The information about balances in Indian rupees is fake news. The Russian Armed Forces are not in retreat at the moment. The RF won't run out ammo as we produce now 3 times more than every Western nation combined and also get certain supplies from friendly nations. We try to save lives, achieve the goals of the military operation without an escalation with NATO all following political and military decisions at the top with a lot of resolve and responsibility.
https://youtu.be/WF2oIHoEU6s?si=Vmps3kxRCrAHe7f-
It seems the respite is over. They probably reorganized, put another guy in charge of the Internet Research Agency or whatever they call it nowadays and figured out how to resume payroll. I swear, though, they must've never had another employee as dumb and lazy as Drama. Even if they pay him 100 rubles an hour, that's already too much.Agreed seems like Tweedledumbfuck and TweedleRee are back again.
Just my opinion that the hard right throwing a pipe wrench into the system is a conspiracy of the left and right to stop the money and end the shit show.
Elvis 2008
10-19-23, 02:00
Just my opinion that the hard right throwing a pipe wrench into the system is a conspiracy of the left and right to stop the money and end the shit show.Well, there has not been any financial responsibility with any pols lately.
https://www.pgpf.org/blog/2023/02/interest-costs-on-the-national-debt-are-on-track-to-reach-a-record-high#text=Interest%20 costs%20 represented%20 about%208,spends%20 on%20 income%20 security%20 programs.
Net interest payments on the national debt rose from $352 billion in 2021 to $475 billion in 2022. As of August 2023 it costs $808 billion to maintain the debt, which is 15% of the total federal spending.
Riina, I agree with you on limiting the spending but what you call a conspiracy, I call an empty wallet.
Riina, I agree with you on limiting the spending but what you call a conspiracy, I call an empty wallet.If anyone is nearing currency collapse and bankruptcy, it's Vlad and chums.
Elvis 2008
10-20-23, 14:42
If anyone is nearing currency collapse and bankruptcy, it's Vlad and chums.Hardly.
Debt to GDP in Russia is 16%. In the USA, it is 121%.
Russian data reached an all-time high of 384.2 USD billion in Jun 2022. Russia National Government Debt reached 267.3 USD billion in Aug 2023, compared with 281.9 USD bn in the previous month.
I think being Democrat means you do not know the value of numbers. Putin is failing. He is going down anytime now. We have to stay the course.
When Putin is paying $120 billion in debt down, does that look like he is failing?
Compare that to the USA and Biden.
You Dems want to compare Biden to Trump on anything. You compare Biden to Putin and Putin wins in a landslide.
The Biden strategy in Ukriane is we get poorer while Russia gets richer.
Now call me a Putin bootlicker to compensate for your horrible lack of knowledge. What else you got?
Hardly.
Debt to GDP in Russia is 16%...You're right, you nailed it. You have sold all your dollars, euros, pounds etc and purchased Rubles right?
You put your money where your mouth is of course.
The Biden's 'strategy' on Ukraine can be only allegorically compared to The Blind Leading the Blind, or The Parable of the Blind by the Dutch artist Pieter Bruegel the Elder, completed in 1568.
The Biden's 'strategy' on Ukraine can be only allegorically compared to The Blind Leading the Blind, or The Parable of the Blind by the Dutch artist Pieter Bruegel the Elder, completed in 1568.It's not only the Biden strategy but the strategy the majority of Republican lawmakers have agreed with and still do. We are the leaders of the free world and have a role to play in Europe. The views of isolationists not only give us a small view of America, but are impractical in a world so interconnected.
Elvis 2008
10-21-23, 19:30
You're right, you nailed it. You have sold all your dollars, euros, pounds etc and purchased Rubles right?
You put your money where your mouth is of course.LOL. Currency is a good investment? Russian inflation is running 6%. USA is running 4%. Both currencies are shit investments. With one, you lose 6% a year, and the other is 4%.
Obviously, Democrats like you are happy losing 4% a year. Take that Putin! USA! USA!
Given a $140,000,000 a day war tab for the AFU the reported banking check would have sustained the effort for about 2 minutes.
https://oversight.house.gov/release/comer-releases-evidence-of-direct-payment-to-joe-biden/
DramaFree11
10-22-23, 07:05
The Biden's 'strategy' on Ukraine can be only allegorically compared to The Blind Leading the Blind, or The Parable of the Blind by the Dutch artist Pieter Bruegel the Elder, completed in 1568.Bidden and the clowns he had around him have done so much damage to Ukraine, almost as much a Putin. The war should have never started and they should came up with a peace agreement a year, but they pushed there luck. Now Ukraine will be lucky to keep Odessa.
Great job Bidden, Pres. Z. , and the other Euros that endorsed this war. What an absolute mess. As I said many times Ukraine always loses, now they have taken it to whole different level, what a joke!
The Biden's 'strategy' on Ukraine can be only allegorically compared to The Blind Leading the Blind, or The Parable of the Blind by the Dutch artist Pieter Bruegel the Elder, completed in 1568.The strategy seems to be working, the recent ATACMs delivery has been a sensation. I can't wait to see how the situation develops once the F-16's are unleashed.
Bidden and the clowns he had around him have done so much damage to Ukraine, almost as much a Putin.I agree. They really messed it up. Ukrainians in the states don't want to hear about this war anymore. Time to accept reality and pick up the pieces.
DramaFree11
10-22-23, 22:34
The strategy seems to be working, the recent ATACMs delivery has been a sensation. I can't wait to see how the situation develops once the F-16's are unleashed.Delusional, keep watching fake news!!
Written in 1831 the poet 'tells the French to leave Slavs alone because the eventual outcome of all quarrels between Slavs must be decided between Slavs themselves'.
The original https://www.culture.ru/poems/4966/klevetnikam-rossii.
19th century translation: https://www.poetrynook.com/poem/slanderers-russia.
Whenever the chance presents itself and you have a folly to discuss the conflict with your Russian speaking lady, don't forget the above.
Delusional, keep watching fake news!!What is fake here?
Delusional, keep watching fake news!!Exactly. Looks like America only handed over about 10 Atacms, most of which if not all have been used up. And they had limited range. The F16's won't show up until some time next year, and when they do, they won't make any difference, they will be quickly shot down by the S400.
I told everyone on this forum that Russia would win and to write that down. To all the folks that believed the western lies and the fake news, now you know I was right. What a horrible tragedy for Ukraine, I honestly feel so bad for Ukraine. All this could've been avoided had Ukraine accepted neutrality and autonomy for the Donbas (Minsk accords). But the west and the NATO warmongers took Ukraine down the primrose path. May they rot in eternal hell. And no, I am not defending Putin. But you have to understand that Russia, like China and the United States is a great power. Great powers have their red lines and national security concerns. Ukraine and NATO expansion was Russia's. Ukraine was ready to accept neutrality and autonomy for the Donbas in 2022 March in Istanbul. Then that pathetic Boris Johson came to Kiev and told that corrupt actor Zelensky to ditch the peace talks. Imagine if those peace talks had been allowed to succeed. Like I said, may those NATO warmongers rot in hell.
What is fake here?The war for all intents and purposes is over mate. Time to wake up.
Bidden and the clowns he had around him have done so much damage to Ukraine, almost as much a Putin. The war should have never started and they should came up with a peace agreement a year, but they pushed there luck. Now Ukraine will be lucky to keep Odessa.
Great job Bidden, Pres. Z. , and the other Euros that endorsed this war. What an absolute mess. As I said many times Ukraine always loses, now they have taken it to whole different level, what a joke!I'm quite certain the Russians will try to take Odessa and Kharkov, both historically Russian cities with a lot of Russian speakers. After that I honestly don't know what he has in mind. Some are saying he will annex a further 2 Oblasts after that.
DramaFree11
12-06-23, 23:28
I'm quite certain the Russians will try to take Odessa and Kharkov, both historically Russian cities with a lot of Russian speakers. After that I honestly don't know what he has in mind. Some are saying he will annex a further 2 Oblasts after that.Yep, and Pres. Z. Will be lucky if he makes it to Christmas. What a joke!
I'm quite certain the Russians will try to take Odessa and Kharkov, both historically Russian cities with a lot of Russian speakers. After that I honestly don't know what he has in mind. Some are saying he will annex a further 2 Oblasts after that.Russian speaker does not mean anything. My ex wife and her family spoke Russian and are all fighting them.
Drama's finally gotten reinforcements, I see. Good! I can only imagine how lonely it's been for him lately.
I wonder how things are at the Internet Research Agency nowadays -- After Putin blew up their former boss out of the air.
Elvis 2008
12-07-23, 07:03
I told everyone on this forum that Russia would win and to write that down. To all the folks that believed the western lies and the fake news, now you know I was right. What a horrible tragedy for Ukraine, I honestly feel so bad for Ukraine. All this could've been avoided had Ukraine accepted neutrality and autonomy for the Donbas (Minsk accords). But the west and the NATO warmongers took Ukraine down the primrose path. May they rot in eternal hell. And no, I am not defending Putin. But you have to understand that Russia, like China and the United States is a great power. Great powers have their red lines and national security concerns. Ukraine and NATO expansion was Russia's. Ukraine was ready to accept neutrality and autonomy for the Donbas in 2022 March in Istanbul. Then that pathetic Boris Johson came to Kiev and told that corrupt actor Zelensky to ditch the peace talks. Imagine if those peace talks had been allowed to succeed. Like I said, may those NATO warmongers rot in hell.Yeah, it looks like the narrative has finally failed to work. https://www.zerohedge.com/geopolitical/biden-raises-possibility-american-troops-fighting-russian-troops.
On Wednesday President Joe Biden suggested that if Congress doesn't send Ukraine more money, now, it may 'embolden' Russian President Vladimir Putin to invade a NATO ally, which would precipitate "American troops fighting Russian troops. ".
The threat was not persuasive. Senate Republicans Block Biden Ukraine Aid Despite Warning. Senate Republicans channeled Elon Musk (G. F. why.), blocking Biden's $111 emergency supplemental package that would also include aid for Israel, humanitarian aid for Gaza, and a smattering of border funding.
End of quote.
I heard on Joe Rogan's show that $6 billion would have rebuilt every home in Maui lost to the fire there, and the government balked at spending the money there. We learned when President Xi came to San Francisco that the city could be cleaned up and cleaned up fast. We know the Mexican border is fucked up, but hey, we got all this money for Ukraine.
I think the part that Biden's spiel is missing is how the Europeans in NATO have checked out and also how the war has been popular in Russia. Those neocons were completely ignorant of Russian feelings and how NATO creeping up into Ukraine was perceived as threatening. Now the Russia has the territory it wants for its defense, my understanding is they are okay with Ukraine joining NATO now. LOL.
How fucking stupid is it that there was all this money for Ukraine and so little for San Francisco, Maui, and the border? And BTW, these are historically Democratic regions.
It would be nice if our defense department really was for defense. Apparently, the neocon / war mongers switched from the Republican to Democratic party.
I hope I can go back to Russia someday and apologize to them for all this money spent and tell them, "Hey, I voted for Trump. ".
This is and was such a fucking stupid war. You are right, BR. It should have been over in March 2022.
DramaFree11
12-08-23, 00:47
Drama's finally gotten reinforcements, I see. Good! I can only imagine how lonely it's been for him lately.
I wonder how things are at the Internet Research Agency nowadays -- After Putin blew up their former boss out of the air.Finally, the truth is coming out. Now maybe you will go away, or go hang out with Paulina and your other whacked out friends. I guess the job with CNN did not work out.
This is one of the dumbest wars of all time, and yes, I was correct and with a few others. Now maybe the liberals will learn a lesson from the massive debacle, but I doubt it.
It's funny how they're grasping at straws hoping to deliver the victory to the Russian dictator and Trump's buddy -- now by denying assistance to the nation fighting against the bloodthirsty tyrant. It's all futile. Helping Ukraine defeat this pure fascist regime is crucial to our own and European security. So much so that this fuckfest too will pass, Ukraine will get the money and the weapons, the Third Rome will choke in the pool of its own blood, and new states (including new Russia) will emerge from this bloody mess. Won't be long, either.
Each time the orcs suffer a major setback, the activity in here and other forums by the Kremlin Troll factory goes into overdrive. The more they post hateful posts in Ukrainian forums, the worse it tends to be going for the occupiers.
I'll remind everyone again, that no one is posting trolls in the Russian forum, but here as in the geographical location, Ukraine support is constantly under attack.
It's funny how they're grasping at straws hoping to deliver the victory to the Russian dictator and Trump's buddy -- now by denying assistance to the nation fighting against the bloodthirsty tyrant. It's all futile. Helping Ukraine defeat this pure fascist regime is crucial to our own and European security. So much so that this fuckfest too will pass, Ukraine will get the money and the weapons, the Third Rome will choke in the pool of its own blood, and new states (including new Russia) will emerge from this bloody mess. Won't be long, either.
Yeah, it looks like the narrative has finally failed to work. https://www.zerohedge.com/geopolitical/biden-raises-possibility-american-troops-fighting-russian-troops.
On Wednesday President Joe Biden suggested that if Congress doesn't send Ukraine more money, now, it may 'embolden' Russian President Vladimir Putin to invade a NATO ally, which would precipitate "American troops fighting Russian troops. ".
The threat was not persuasive. Senate Republicans Block Biden Ukraine Aid Despite Warning. Senate Republicans channeled Elon Musk (G. F. why.), blocking Biden's $111 emergency supplemental package that would also include aid for Israel, humanitarian aid for Gaza, and a smattering of border funding.So your lesson out of this is Americans should not buy insurance because the government will rebuild everything for you?
I hope I can visit Ukraine for the victory of Russia day.
Elvis 2008
12-09-23, 05:30
Each time the orcs suffer a major setback, the activity in here and other forums by the Kremlin Troll factory goes into overdrive. The more they post hateful posts in Ukrainian forums, the worse it tends to be going for the occupiers.
I'll remind everyone again, that no one is posting trolls in the Russian forum, but here as in the geographical location, Ukraine support is constantly under attack.Sigh. Orcs huh?
Here is one of the last honest reporters left commenting on the Ukraine war, Matt Taibbi.
According to one measure we spent over $75 billion between January 2022 and July 2023, just a shade under Russia's $81 billion military budget for 2022. In other words, just to keep this one storyline in Ukraine growing, we've had to basically match Russia's entire military budget.
That was never going to continue forever, and everyone knew it, except the handful of insane monsters in politics and media who pretended that the war in Ukraine was not a pure proxy conflict. It was obvious this moment of truth was coming even before the Hamas-Gaza situation changed the political dynamic at home. We knew it from the Vatican-style smoke signals that occasionally emanated from talking heads in the news, like NATO official Stian Jenssen, who sent heads reeling in September by admitting the alliance was no longer imagining a "complete Russian defeat," adding that Ukraine should instead contemplate a deal in which they "give up territory and get NATO membership in return."
Jenssen is chief of staff to NATO Secretary General Jens Stoltenberg, to whom he had to apologize publicly for suggesting this territory-for-peace trade every sane person knows is the likely ending of this awful bloody farce. Stoltenberg nonetheless was still talking about "winning" even last week, but nobody is going to "win" in this war. There's only bloodshed and a big and fat, but ultimately temporary, feeding frenzy for Lockheed, General Dynamics, Raytheon and the rest of Lloyd Austin's buddies. If our leaders were straight with us at the start of this thing, that's what they'the have asked: "Hey, can we risk nuclear war for a couple of years so taxpayers can fork over a couple hundred extra billion bucks worth of arms dealer bonuses?
The country of course would have said no, like they're saying no now, which is exactly why Biden and company didn't ask. Instead, they lied and lied, but now that the lying doesn't work anymore, they're trying the truth, not realizing it's a little late for that, and insulting as hell to boot. Is there a clue anywhere in the skulls of these people?
AntonySun1996
12-09-23, 23:41
I told everyone on this forum that Russia would win and to write that down. They both lose. The only difference is the degree of loss.
To add some content (mostly omissions with some MIC sales pitch):
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/12/04/ukraine-counteroffensive-stalled-russia-war-defenses/
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/12/04/ukraine-counteroffensive-us-planning-russia-war/
By the way, do you know the difference between a Russian Roulette and an Ukrainian Roulette? (pun intended: in Russian 'roulette' also means any type of ground food product).
The players of the Ukrainian Roulette charge 5 rounds into the cylinder.
DramaFree11
12-10-23, 04:48
They both lose. The only difference is the degree of loss.Correct, I will add everyone in the world has lost from this disaster. What a Mess and yet some want the killing to continue. Throwing money towards Ukraine will only prolong them getting their ass kicked and losing more lives / territory. Great job liberals.
Given the size, strength and budget of the Orc army vs Ukraine, the orcs are by no means kicking ass, in terms of lives lost, economic destruction and equipment losses, Russia is the one getting pummeled.
Correct, I will add everyone in the world has lost from this disaster. What a Mess and yet some want the killing to continue. Throwing money towards Ukraine will only prolong them getting their ass kicked and losing more lives / territory. Great job liberals.
DramaFree11
12-11-23, 00:46
Given the size, strength and budget of the Orc army vs Ukraine, the orcs are by no means kicking ass, in terms of lives lost, economic destruction and equipment losses, Russia is the one getting pummeled.You are so wrong, but when does the truth matter to a liberal.
Given the size, strength and budget of the Orc army vs Ukraine, the orcs are by no means kicking ass, in terms of lives lost, economic destruction and equipment losses, Russia is the one getting pummeled.You are like one of them University presidents, blind and dumb.
You are like one of them University presidents, blind and dumb.One of what "University presidents" bullshit boy?
What exactly is he wrong about?
Your mighty, invincible, peerless army was supposed to have taken Kyiv by Feb 27,2022. Remember that?
Instead, the only country you have managed to defeat is your own.
The only people you have managed to enslave is your own.
Good job!
I've made a pretty solid claim, where is your evidence to the contrary?
You are so wrong, but when does the truth matter to a liberal.
They both lose. The only difference is the degree of loss.Russia will be able to survive this. Ukraine on the other hand will get totally wrecked and will become a dysfunctional rump state that will never join NATO or the EU. So what was the point of all this from Ukraine's perspective? Those are the questions that Zelensky will have to answer one day, why did he walk away from the peace talks in Istanbul in 2022 March. So many lives would not be lost today.
Correct, I will add everyone in the world has lost from this disaster. What a Mess and yet some want the killing to continue. Throwing money towards Ukraine will only prolong them getting their ass kicked and losing more lives / territory. Great job liberals.Exactly. More money or weapons won't change the outcome (a Russian victory). Just like the Himars, or the Atacms, or the F16's, or the Leopards, or the Storm Shadow didn't and won't (in case some fool is counting on the F16s to make a difference, whenever they arrive, they will quickly burn like those Leopards are burning). Etc etc. Etc. Time to make peace and end this senseless killing.
If you want peace, just ask the Occupiers to leave Ukraine and there will be peace, it's not rocket science.
Exactly. More money or weapons won't change the outcome (a Russian victory). Just like the Himars, or the Atacms, or the F16's, or the Leopards, or the Storm Shadow didn't and won't (in case some fool is counting on the F16s to make a difference, whenever they arrive, they will quickly burn like those Leopards are burning). Etc etc. Etc. Time to make peace and end this senseless killing.
DramaFree11
12-12-23, 00:37
One of what "University presidents" bullshit boy?
What exactly is he wrong about?
Your mighty, invincible, peerless army was supposed to have taken Kyiv by Feb 27,2022. Remember that?
Instead, the only country you have managed to defeat is your own.
The only people you have managed to enslave is your own.
Good job!Xman when does the truth matter to you. This is what happens when you guys play with fire, this time you helped to ruin a country. Still no negotiation, what do you guys hope to accomplish.
If you want peace, just ask the Occupiers to leave Ukraine and there will be peace, it's not rocket science.What you are suggesting is Utopian and not realistic.
While you're at it, why don't you ask the Turks to leave Cyprus, or for the Israeli's to uproot all the settlers from the west bank, I could give you many more examples.
Ukraine will have to cede territory, they are not getting the 4 new territories or Crimea back. Everyone knows that. Time to accept reality and make peace. The longer this goes on, the more difficult it will get for Ukraine. That's the reality.
This is an interactive map of areas held by Russia and the Ukraine:
https://www.nzz.ch/english/ukraine-war-interactive-map-of-the-current-front-line-ld.1688087
Open the web page in two browser windows. Leave one at the current date, 6-11 December, 2023. In the second window, take the date back to 17 November, 2022.
You'll see the two sides have been stalemated for over a year. Any change in the area occupied by Russia is imperceptible.
And how many combatants and civilians have been killed or injured during that period? Hundreds of thousands?
This will go on indefinitely, as long as the two sides have the will, the arms and the young men to continue. The West needs to put pressure on both countries to end the war. Ukraine should give up the idea it can return to pre-2014 borders. It won't happen, and in any event based on polling data the majority in the occupied areas (Crimea and Russian occupied Donbas) preferred to be affiliated with Russia instead of Ukraine before the recent hostilities broke out. Russia should accept the territorial integrity and independence of the rest of the Ukraine, and stop meddling in Ukrainian politics.
I'm not saying the West should pull the plug on aid to Ukraine. It should however push Ukraine to the negotiating table. Russia has been willing to talk for a while, although admittedly who knows if the Kremlin is sincere.
Something like what exists in Korea, a permanent cease fire along the current lines of control, would be much, much preferable to the current situation.
and in any event based on polling data the majority in the occupied areas (Crimea and Russian occupied Donbas) preferred to be affiliated with Russia instead of Ukraine before the recent hostilities broke out. Russia should accept the territorial integrity and independence of the rest of the Ukraine, and stop meddling in Ukrainian politics.Polling data from the occupiers can be discarded.
Russian as it is now, will never stop meddling in UA politics, they can't even stop meddling in US and EU politics.
And how many combatants and civilians have been killed or injured during that period? Hundreds of thousands?
Until the last Ukrainian? I know that's sick, but it sounds like that's what the neocons, the NATO warmongers and Zelensky wants.
This will go on indefinitely, as long as the two sides have the will, the arms and the young men to continue.Sooner rather than later, Ukraine will run out of men to put on the front line. Then what? They are already sending teenagers and old men. What's next? Women? Horrific.
The West needs to put pressure on both countries to end the war. Ukraine should give up the idea it can return to pre-2014 borders. It won't happen, and in any event based on polling data the majority in the occupied areas (Crimea and Russian occupied Donbas) preferred to be affiliated with Russia instead of Ukraine before the recent hostilities broke out. Russia should accept the territorial integrity and independence of the rest of the Ukraine, and stop meddling in Ukrainian politics. I agree with all that. I don't think Putin wants anything more than the 4 new territories + Crimea as part of Russia. I really don't know what he has planned for Kharkov and Odessa. But Ukraine must be neutral also, that's what started this whole thing. And for the you. S to stop meddling in Ukrainian politics as well. I mean that's how this whole thing started in 2014 when the you. S removed the democratically elected leader.
I'm not saying the West should pull the plug on aid to Ukraine. It should however push Ukraine to the negotiating table. Russia has been willing to talk for a while, although admittedly who knows if the Kremlin is sincere.
Something like what exists in Korea, a permanent cease fire along the current lines of control, would be much, much preferable to the current situation.That's how this will end, a ceasefire without a peace agreement, a frozen conflict, much like the Koreas.
Polling data from the occupiers can be discarded.
Russian as it is now, will never stop meddling in UA politics, they can't even stop meddling in US and EU politics.These are the facts. While Putin has been clear from the beginning that he believes Ukraine has no right to exist and should be absorbed into Russia. He wants it all. This is based on spurious historical analysis that I refuted on this thread back in the Spring of 2022. Though there's one big problem with internet discussions and debates, as there's a perceived need for a complete redo every time a new person enters the thread. LOL I'm not willing to invest my limited time that way, though here's some decent sources for those interested, while many more can be found in Google.
https://www.rochester.edu/newscenter/ukraine-history-fact-checking-putin-513812/
This is a podcast you can access at the top right of the page.
https://globalaffairs.org/commentary-and-analysis/podcasts/debunking-putins-false-history-ukraine
Elvis 2008
12-12-23, 22:54
Given the size, strength and budget of the Orc army vs Ukraine, the orcs are by no means kicking ass, in terms of lives lost, economic destruction and equipment losses, Russia is the one getting pummeled.And the most convincing part of that if anyone in government shares document showing that line is bullshit not only will they be put in jail but their boss will be put in jail.
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/dec/11/air-force-commander-removed-pentagon-leak-jack-teixeira
He is accused of sharing classified military documents on Discord about Russia's invasion of Ukraine and other national security topics.
Authorities allege he began sharing classified documents in a Discord chat group, including typing out documents and sharing photographs, and continued to do so even after being warned by superiors about his activities in accessing intelligence information.
Teixeira allegedly bragged about the scope of information to which he had access, writing that what he had presented was "less than half of what's available".
"All of the shit I've told you guys I'm not supposed to," federal prosecutors have alleged he said.
https://www.zerohedge.com/military/alleged-discord-leakers-commanding-officer-removed-post
One of the documents released by Teixeira was an intelligence assessment that predicted that Ukraine would fall "well short" of its goals in the counteroffensive. American officials attempted to downplay those findings in May before Kiev launched a counteroffensive the following month.
End of link.
It is amazing how much government shit is classified and why it is. In this case, it is pretty obvious documents were classified to keep the American people in the dark about how throwing money into the pit that is Ukraine is a complete waste.
Russia is the one getting pummeled? Yeah, sure.
Until the last Ukrainian? I know that's sick, but it sounds like that's what the neocons, the NATO warmongers and Zelensky wants. No NATO just wants Putin to stop prosecuting a genocidal war on Ukraine, murdering civilians with precision weapons, deporting their children to re-indoctrination camps, that kind of stuff. As to the Ukrainians, they want to fight to preserve their identity.
Sooner rather than later, Ukraine will run out of men to put on the front line. Then what? Sooner rather than later Putin will run out of ethnic canon fodder from the poorer regions while having fewer and fewer from other regions willing to fight. Then what? We've already seen one exodus of 200,000 young Russian men as they fled for the border, and there's a rebellion among Russian mothers and wives.
https://www.chathamhouse.org/2023/12/putin-faces-growing-threat-wives-and-mothers-mobilized-soldiers
They are already sending teenagers and old men. What's next? Women? Horrific. This is propaganda and easy to say in a monger forum. Prove it with a reliable source, and go ahead include Russian state media. You are either in the camp directly or a far right isolationist. There's actually not much difference between the two though. Teenage adults yes, "old men" no outside of volunteers. Ukraine currently has 688,000 active troops, 650,000 in reserve and a larger pool to tap into. But yea, it's easy to talk. Link us to your sources.
https://www.businessinsider.com/ukraines-military-balances-uneven-training-levels-after-year-of-war-2023-4
I don't think Putin wants anything more than the 4 new territories + Crimea as part of Russia. Your opinion and two dollars will buy you a cup of coffee. Putin has been very clear that he believes the Ukraine belongs to Russia, while he doesn't have any "new" territories. The occupations are illegal, while he ran from both Kyiv and Kharkiv with his tail between his legs and is on his heels in Kherson.
But Ukraine must be neutral also, that's what started this whole thing. What "started this whole thing" is Putin's imperialistic designs and decades long belly aching over the loss of the USSR, along with Ukraine's commitment to democracy which of course he sees as a threat. Also, before you go there, no promise against NATO expansion was ever made. That's another point here that has been covered at least a dozen times.
https://hls.harvard.edu/today/there-was-no-promise-not-to-enlarge-nato/
And for the you. S to stop meddling in Ukrainian politics as well. I mean that's how this whole thing started in 2014 when the you. S removed the democratically elected leader. Hogwash, while this has been refuted at least a dozen times on this thread over the last 18 months. The democratically elected national legislature removed a corrupt Russian puppet leader, and all within the provisions of the Ukrainian constitution. NEXT.
That's how this will end, a ceasefire without a peace agreement, a frozen conflict, much like the Koreas.You know what they say about opinions, while that's all your prediction is. But the two situations are different on many grounds, primarily because we are talking about Russia, a country that habitually breaks agreements while they have expansionist ambitions. Ukraine is fighting against genocide and to preserve their identity, and as long as they are willing to do so the west should support them.
Great job liberals.And how many times have you been presented with the fact that the majority of American conservative Republicans support aid to Ukraine? A dozen? That applies to both voters and lawmakers. But yea, turn it into a conservative versus liberal thing when you don't get your way. That's easy enough I suppose, though that false dichotomy has gotten pretty dated.
Polling data from the occupiers can be discarded.The polls actually weren't conducted by the occupiers, but did occur in occupied territory. Some were conducted by respected organizations like Gallup and Pew Research.
We've discussed Donbas before:
Please see this article from 2019.
https://www.kyivpost.com/post/7557
"Only 5.1 percent of people living in the Russia-controlled parts of Donetsk and Luhansk regions want Ukraine to regain control over the territories. Half (50.9 percent) want a union with Russia and another 13.4 percent said the region should accede to Russia with a "special status." For the whole of Donbas, including its Ukraine-controlled areas, 49.6 percent want it to become part of Russia, with another 13.3 percent choosing such a scenario with a "special status" for Donbas. A fifth (19.2 percent) see Donbas as part of Ukraine."
So apparently 50.9% wanted to live in a Russian oblast, and another 13.4% in something like a Russian territory (e.g. like Puerto Rico in the USA). Only 5.1% wanted to live in a Ukrainian controlled oblast. See here for info about polls in Crimea.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Crimean_status_referendum
The pre-2014 polls are a mixed bag, but post referendum polls indicate a preference for being a part of Russia.
Russian as it is now, will never stop meddling in UA politics, they can't even stop meddling in US and EU politics.Good point. I believe you're probably right.
The polls actually weren't conducted by the occupiers, but did occur in occupied territory. Some were conducted by respected organizations like Gallup and Pew Research.Please say you are kidding us. LOL Who cares who the "respected organizations" are, as the polls were still conducted under occupation and under a cloud of intimidation.
See here for info about polls in Crimea.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Crimean_status_referendum
The pre-2014 polls are a mixed bag, but post referendum polls indicate a preference for being a part of Russia.Wikipedia isn't a source but a bathroom wall. Anyone can post content there, and though moderated, this can be sketchy and slow to come. The Tartar question is often ignored. These favor Ukraine, and have often been intimidated since Stalin purged them from Crimea in the early 1940's. But regardless, anyone in Crimea or the Donbass that wants to be part of Russia doesn't have far to travel. Irrespective of specious polls and votes at gunpoint, the annexations remain illegal.
https://www.eeas.europa.eu/node/112989_fr
Arm wrestling matches do not end in a draw or tie. Same here: all the goals of the SMO are going to be accomplished. Crimea is a wonderful region, highly recommended to visit June to September.
No NATO just wants Putin to stop prosecuting a genocidal war on Ukraine, murdering civilians with precision weapons, deporting their children to re-indoctrination camps, that kind of stuff. As to the Ukrainians, they want to fight to preserve their identity.NATO already threw Ukraine under the bus. Ukraine will never join NATO. The goal of NATO is to make Russia weak and to bleed. Lyold Austin said this over a year ago. He didn't say anything about Ukraine winning because he and the rest of NATO know that is not possible. May those NATO monsters rot in eternal hell for taking Ukraine down the primrose path.
Sooner rather than later Putin will run out of ethnic canon fodder from the poorer regions while having fewer and fewer from other regions willing to fight. Then what? We've already seen one exodus of 200,000 young Russian men as they fled for the border, and there's a rebellion among Russian mothers and wives.
https://www.chathamhouse.org/2023/12/putin-faces-growing-threat-wives-and-mothers-mobilized-soldiers
This is a war of attrition. Don't you know how that works? Russia has over 3 x the population of Ukraine, probably more. Ukraine will run out of men and ammo much quicker than the Russians. That's reason enough to say the Russians will win.
This is propaganda and easy to say in a monger forum. Prove it with a reliable source, and go ahead include Russian state media. You are either in the camp directly or a far right isolationist. There's actually not much difference between the two though. Teenage adults yes, "old men" no outside of volunteers. Ukraine currently has 688,000 active troops, 650,000 in reserve and a larger pool to tap into. But yea, it's easy to talk. Link us to your sources.
https://www.businessinsider.com/ukraines-military-balances-uneven-training-levels-after-year-of-war-2023-4
Alright man, believe what you want.
Your opinion and two dollars will buy you a cup of coffee. Putin has been very clear that he believes the Ukraine belongs to Russia, while he doesn't have any "new" territories. The occupations are illegal, while he ran from both Kyiv and Kharkiv with his tail between his legs and is on his heels in Kherson.
What "started this whole thing" is Putin's imperialistic designs and decades long belly aching over the loss of the USSR, along with Ukraine's commitment to democracy which of course he sees as a threat. Also, before you go there, no promise against NATO expansion was ever made. That's another point here that has been covered at least a dozen times.
https://hls.harvard.edu/today/there-was-no-promise-not-to-enlarge-nato/
When did Putin say he beleives Ukraine belongs to Russia? If he wanted to take over Ukraine, 2014 would've been a much better time, when Ukraine military was weak. Instead he tried 2 Minsk accords. There's no evidence to support what you just said. You live in a fantasy world if you're not willing to accept that this is all about NATO expansion (root cause). Even the PM of Georgia said the same thing a while back.
Hogwash, while this has been refuted at least a dozen times on this thread over the last 18 months. The democratically elected national legislature removed a corrupt Russian puppet leader, and all within the provisions of the Ukrainian constitution. NEXT.
You know what they say about opinions, while that's all your prediction is. But the two situations are different on many grounds, primarily because we are talking about Russia, a country that habitually breaks agreements while they have expansionist ambitions. Ukraine is fighting against genocide and to preserve their identity, and as long as they are willing to do so the west should support them.Yeah, support them until the last Ukrainian. Or you could call for a ceasefire. You want the former. What a horrific tragedy that could've easily been avoided. God bless the Ukrainian people.
Reiner Otto
12-13-23, 15:10
Russia has over 3 x the population of Ukraine, probably more. Ukraine will run out of men and ammo much quicker than the Russians. That's reason enough to say the Russians will win.
Unfortunately, you are wright. Look, what's actually going on in the USA right now. Will the USA still "help"next year? And look at all the help from Germany. Allthough a German citizen, I have to
be ashamed regarding the amount of "help"the German government provided. Already last year I outed my opinion, that Germany (and the West?)
want to bleed out the Ukraine, being so fast in providing "support'. Germany started with a few thousand helmets. Wow! At least, not from the Wehrmacht. And then the old, half (or completely?) rotten
?) rotten old anti-tank weapons from the former East German Army, thus antique Russian stuff. The USA, although, kept face. Until now.
The West had a lot of sweet talks, mainly. And a few weapons. Until now. How could the West expect a successful offensive of the UA, without air superiotity? Without modern fighter aircrafts?
And now, even in case F16 will be sent, finally. Still good UA-pilots available? Or did they shed their blood already flying old MIG-29 and SU-27 ?
This writes somebody, who lived, worked and hunted 5 years in the RF. And 5 years in Nikolaev, Odessa and Cherson. And was partying multiple times in Kazantip, Crimea.
Only chance for the UA to win: 5 Billion Dollar bounty for Putler.
Sooner rather than later, Ukraine will run out of men to put on the front line. Then what? They are already sending teenagers and old men. What's next? Women? Horrific."The average Ukrainian soldier is 43-years-old, according to Time Magazine.
When the war began in February 2022, the average Ukrainian soldier was between 30 and 35 years old.
Ukraine is battling mounting manpower problems more than 20 months into the war. ".
https://www.businessinsider.com/average-age-ukrainian-soldier-43-amid-personnel-problems-2023-11#text=The%20 average%20 age%20 of%20 Ukrainian, country%20 grapples%20 with%20 personnel%20 problems&text=The%20 average%20 Ukrainian%20 soldier%20 is,30%20 and%2035%20 years%20 old.
Elvis 2008
12-19-23, 18:54
Here is the latest piece from Taibbi:
In a bold piece of agitprop, "USA Officials" blame Ukraine's bleak battlefield situation on. Pentagon leaker Jack Teixeira?
If Teixeira hadn't let slip that officials were freaking out in private about Ukraine's prospects, members of Congress might not have been emboldened to filibuster Biden's spending bill as they did last week. Therefore, learning the truth was bad, and we can blame the leaks, not the factory-produced river of hogwash dumped on the world for the last 22 months, for the dilemma now facing Biden and Ukraine. How's that for Beltway bull-slinging?
Now that the contracting orgy has stopped, however, pucker season is on. Volodymyr Zelensky was in DC Tuesday night and looked like he was doing a take for John Wick 9 when he walked out of Congress empty-handed. If that face is any indication, phones will start ringing all over soon, as unnamed "officials" give seething insider takes on how things got so FUBAR.
If the White House is already sending up trial balloons like this Post story, that means the real blame game is about to start. Zelensky came here for $61 billion, got sent home with a handshake and $175 million from Biden's Presidential Drawdown Authority, and left with gritted teeth and the look of a man planning an as told to Kitty Kelley memoir. Unless this thing gets turned around, and it still could, we're about to learn some things. Was there ever a plan? What promises were made? From our side, how much of this was a pork party, really? If a little leak was intolerable, imagine how the whole truth would go over.
End of that link.
Then you have this story, https://www.racket.news/p/lying-was-the-only-plan-biden-us?utm_source=substack&utm_medium=email.
What gets me is how many people, especially Democrats, fall for this bullshit like this below.
These "savior weapons" pieces were cranked out like clockwork, usually just ahead of Ukraine-related appropriations decisions so "the legislator's already hearing about it, the narrative's already created," as one PR exec put it to me. Not dozens, but hundreds of sunny predictions were rolled out about how Ukraine would be steaming toward Moscow if they could just get more Patriot or Javelin or Stinger missiles or Leopard tanks (They "instill great fear," said Radio Free Europe!) or 155 mm artillery shells or Fortem F700 drones or whatever else.
Advertorials of this type came mostly in two formats: in-field soldier endorsements ("The more of them we get the better!" an unnamed Ukrainian gushed to CBS, about cluster munitions).
In the mean time, Texiera was attacked because he let the truth slip about what the experts were saying in private that went against the official narrative. We saw the EXACT same thing with Covid. The experts had one set narrative in public where they were all knowing and in private were up in arms, scared shitless, and really knew nothing.
I joked that we should all be thankful for Putin as he cured the world of Covid and apparently I was not the only one. We are in the repeat phase of wash, rinse, repeat. And for that, we go back to Taibbi talking to a colleague.
Walter Kirn: Right. I mean, because to use the current thing term, what tends to happen at the end of some big initiative that isn't working is that a new frightening foe presents itself and we all shift our attention. I mean, the joke was Ukraine ended Covid and it did. So what's going to-.
Matt Taibbi: Yeah, Hamas ended Ukraine.
Walter Kirn: Yeah, Hamas ended Ukraine. Exactly. And so that seems to be the new strategy, or just let's not call it a conscious strategy, the new reality. Our attention is turned intensely toward new challenges when old disappointments evolve. And rather than let us sit around and be disappointed and have blame and be in this big muddle of bad feeling, I have a feeling, at least at the media level, if not the real one, we're going to be pointed towards something else. The coming dictatorship of Donald Trump.
You would think the smugness of Democrats and always being wrong when listening to the "experts" who are just paid hacks with degrees or experience would end now but is has not. The smugness on Covid and Ukraine will now be replaced with smugness with regards to Trump and Hamas. To be a Democrat these days requires you to have a memory the length of your average gnat.
DramaFree11
12-20-23, 02:01
Here is the latest piece from Taibbi:
In a bold piece of agitprop, "USA Officials" blame Ukraine's bleak battlefield situation on. Pentagon leaker Jack Teixeira?
If Teixeira hadn't let slip that officials were freaking out in private about Ukraine's prospects, members of Congress might not have been emboldened to filibuster Biden's spending bill as they did last week. Therefore, learning the truth was bad, and we can blame the leaks, not the factory-produced river of hogwash dumped on the world for the last 22 months, for the dilemma now facing Biden and Ukraine. How's that for Beltway bull-slinging?.Great post! I Hope Pres. Z days are numbered, you want to talk about war crimes, he should be on the top of the list. Hopefully they charge him with War Crimes. What joke. There will be nothing left. Biden, Pres. Z. And some Euros have no clue and have ruined Ukraine. It is time to wave the White Flag and save what they can, but I am afraid they are going keep going and Russia will have to take Pres. Z and his government out.
DramaFree11
12-20-23, 02:03
"The average Ukrainian soldier is 43-years-old, according to Time Magazine.
When the war began in February 2022, the average Ukrainian soldier was between 30 and 35 years old.
Ukraine is battling mounting manpower problems more than 20 months into the war. ".
https://www.businessinsider.com/average-age-ukrainian-soldier-43-amid-personnel-problems-2023-11#text=The%20 average%20 age%20 of%20 Ukrainian, country%20 grapples%20 with%20 personnel%20 problems&text=The%20 average%20 Ukrainian%20 soldier%20 is,30%20 and%2035%20 years%20 old.You forgot to mention they are sending Females to the front now, that is how bad it is for Ukraine, yet some continue to want the war to continue.
You forgot to mention they are sending Females to the front now, that is how bad it is for Ukraine, yet some continue to want the war to continue.I see lots of young Ukrainian men in my home city and they are quality dudes certain to be successful. It's hard to believe governments want to destroy them.
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/23/world/europe/putin-russia-ukraine-war-cease-fire.html?smid=nytcore-ios-share&referringSource=articleShare
I pray this goes somewhere. There’s got to be a way to stop the killing and insure the security of Ukraine.
John Clayton
12-23-23, 17:53
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/23/world/europe/putin-russia-ukraine-war-cease-fire.html?smid=nytcore-ios-share&referringSource=articleShare
I pray this goes somewhere. Theres got to be a way to stop the killing and insure the security of Ukraine.How would a ceasefire ensure the security of Ukraine?
How would a ceasefire ensure the security of Ukraine?In my humble opinion I think that is the viable option at this juncture. The only way Ukraine can ensure its security is to commit to no EU and no NATO membership and remove the current government. That is just the Red pill they need to take. When you live next to a superpower it is a hard reality that you have to succumb to the wishes of your bigger Brother. Look at Cuba, look at Mexico. Do you think Mexico will survive a day if it becomes a Russian Satellite state with Nukes planted in its territory? No.
https://tass.com/politics/1724847
Russia's Chief of General Staff reports on Ukrainian failure, Russian rearmament.
According to the report, this year, the Russian military focused on repelling the Ukrainian counteroffensive, which planned to deprive Russia of the land corridor to Crimea.
MOSCOW, December 21. / TASS /. The Russian forces in the zone of the special military operation are engaged in active defense and constantly expand the zones of control in all directions, Chief of the General Staff Valery Gerasimov told a briefing for foreign military attaches.
Kiev has failed the much-hyped counteroffensive despite a huge western support, he added.
Standoff with US, NATO:
The hegemony of the United States and its allies is going to the past, but Washington wants to keep the "western-centric world order" at any price. NATO annually holds close to 40 exercises at Russian borders and all of them focus on the fight against Russia.
"Accelerated integration of Sweden and Finland into the alliance, the growing presence of NATO troops in Eastern Europe, Baltic and Black Sea regions, as well as the Arctic negatively affect the situation in Europe with prospects of increased confrontation. ".
Western support to Kiev:
The developments in Ukraine are a hybrid proxy war of the United States and its allies against the Russian Federation. Since February 2022, Kiev has received over 5. 2 thousand tanks and armored vehicles, close to 1. 5 thousand artillery guns and multiple launch rocket systems, 1. 3 thousand antiaircraft missile complexes, over 23 thousand antitank missile complexes, over a hundred airplanes and helicopters, and 23 thousand drones.
Close to 100,000 Ukrainian military were trained in the West. Besides, Ukraine received over 200 long-range cruise missiles.
Failed counteroffensive:
This year, the Russian military focused on repelling the Ukrainian counteroffensive, which planned to deprive Russia of the land corridor to Crimea.
"By early June, the enemy accumulated in the Zaporozhye direction an offensive force numbering up to 50 battalions, over 230 tanks and over a thousand armored vehicles. A half of them were modern foreign-made vehicles. The force was later increased to 80 battalions. ".
"The enemy planned to block Melitopol in 15 days and advance to the Sea of Azov, Mariupol and the border with Crimea. ".
Ukraine sustained huge losses, but could advance insignificantly and failed to break through the Russian tactical defense. In half a year, Ukraine lost in all directions close to 160 thousand men, over 3,000 tanks and armored vehicles, nearly 150 airplanes and helicopters.
"The widely advertised counteroffensive by Ukraine and NATO allies has failed. ".
Current situation:
"The Russian forces are successfully engaged in active defense, hold the positions along the whole contact line, and constantly expand the areas of control in all directions. The enemy is constantly subject to strikes that deny it a chance to move forward. ".
The Russian air defense has destroyed over 6,300 aerial targets, including over 4,600 drones since the beginning of the year.
The Russian military delivered strikes with long-range precision weapons at 1,500 objects, including defense enterprises and critically important facilities. "One of the results of the strikes was a considerable decrease in the output of the Ukrainian military-industrial complex. ".
Ukrainian terrorism:
As Ukraine fails to achieve success on the battlefield, it resorts to terrorist methods. In the DPR, over 4,700 civilians, including 140 children, have been killed since February 2022. Over 16 thousand residential houses and nearly 3,500 civilian infrastructure objects have been damaged or destroyed.
"Ukraine does not abandon attempts of nuclear terrorism and systematically launches unmanned aerial vehicles with explosives to the Zaporozhye NPP and the town of Energodar. ".
Military development:
The Ground Forces have formed two combined arms armies and 14 formations. The Aerospace Forces formed three formations.
The military received over 1,500 new and upgraded tanks, close to 3,000 armored vehicles, over 230 airplanes and helicopters and over 20,000 drones. Four submarines and eight warships joined the Navy.
Partnerships:
The Defense Ministry continues to develop military and military-technical cooperation with foreign military agencies. Over 600 important events have been implemented this year.
In particular, all-round strategic partnership is developed with China and India and all-round interaction is maintained with North Korea.
TAGS.
Military operation in Ukraine.
Theres got to be a way to stop the killing and insure the security of Ukraine.There was a way, but that ship sailed.
I guess the imminent arrival of F-16's prompted this influx of Z propaganda.
Just out of interest how are the planes from the invading army doing now that the new Ukrainian air defense has been deployed?
I guess the imminent arrival of F-16's prompted this influx of Z propaganda.
Just out of interest how are the planes from the invading army doing now that the new Ukrainian air defense has been deployed?From what I've gathered, they've lost 3 today. At least one, though, was downed by a friendly.
How would a ceasefire ensure the security of Ukraine?I said "insure", not "ensure. " That was poor word choice on my part. I should have written something like "provides reasonable security to Ukraine.
The best ending would be like what Zenduka suggests. Ukraine ends up like Switzerland or Austria, peaceful and prosperous. But as Rina said, that ship has most likely sailed. Absent a change in Russian leadership, Ukraine would indeed have to swallow Zenduka's Red Pill, and that's very unlikely.
An ending like Korea is more likely, only without the presence of NATO troops in Ukraine -- both countries armed to the teeth, but not killing each others young men (and old men and women and children) any longer. This is the best realistic solution. The sooner there's a ceasefire the better -- take my challenge with the interactive map in post #2387 -- neither side has made any progress in over a year.
There's going to have to be a radical change in political will in Russia or the West for either side to win. And that change is more likely to come from the west, by reducing aid to Ukraine. As to Russia, yes, a change of leadership there could result in a Ukrainian victory. But on the other hand, Russia has 6,000 nukes and can end this anytime it wants.
I said "insure", not "ensure. " That was poor word choice on my part. I should have written something like "provides reasonable security to Ukraine.
The best ending would be like what Zenduka suggests. Ukraine ends up like Switzerland or Austria, peaceful and prosperous. But as Rina said, that ship has most likely sailed. Absent a change in Russian leadership, Ukraine would indeed have to swallow Zenduka's Red Pill, and that's very unlikely.
An ending like Korea is more likely, only without the presence of NATO troops in Ukraine -- both countries armed to the teeth, but not killing each others young men (and old men and women and children) any longer. This is the best realistic solution. The sooner there's a ceasefire the better -- take my challenge with the interactive map in post #2387 -- neither side has made any progress in over a year..Two of my replies to you have been lost somewhere in the forum abyss, and I'm not feeling like wasting another 20 minutes replicating them. But here are the reasons why you're wrong on almost all counts.
1. Ukraine would be crazy to trust Russia about anything. I don't expect you to agree with me. I actually understand why you wouldn't -- it really boggles the mind to grasp Russia's historic disregard for any treaties and agreements it deems "unfair" and "inconvenient". Hint: it didn't start with Putin or Stalin or even Lenin. That's how Russia has rolled for centuries.
2. Ending like Korea is completely unrealistic. That ceasefire is based upon the might of the United States. There is no way in hell a similar arrangement is even remotely possible in Ukraine.
4. Are these people fanatics who are prepared to launch the nuclear apocalypses (that will end Russia too)? No, these people are not fanatics. They're corrupt, wealthier than god, swindlers; they love their yachts, jets and mansions; and they have no desire to commit a murder-suicide of the world. That's not even mentioning their families and their hoars who're all living here, in the West. Who exactly are they going to bomb? I'm more scared of a drunken accident or misunderstanding in this high-pitched environment.
5. Russia is a giant with feet of clay. Its war effort has already cannibalized the economy, and all Putin's posturing and saber-rattling is just smoke and mirrors. Which are the only two products Russia truly excels in.
In my humble opinion I think that is the viable option at this juncture. The only way Ukraine can ensure its security is to commit to no EU and no NATO membership and remove the current government. That is just the Red pill they need to take. When you live next to a superpower it is a hard reality that you have to succumb to the wishes of your bigger Brother. Look at Cuba, look at Mexico. Do you think Mexico will survive a day if it becomes a Russian Satellite state with Nukes planted in its territory? No.This is a brilliant post and spot on. I am shocked that people do not understand this very simple thing. Russia, whether you like it or not, is a great power. Great powers have their red lines. Ukraine joining NATO was Russia's red line and they acted. I'm not justifying it. But look at what the American's did when the Soviets placed missiles in Cuba. What would the Americans do if China placed missiles in Mexico. Looking back at it, was neutrality so bad for Ukraine? They will never ever join NATO. And look at Ukraine now. A destroyed nation that will forever be a dysfunctional rump state thanks to NATO and the warmongers, may the rot in hell.
I guess the imminent arrival of F-16's prompted this influx of Z propaganda.
Just out of interest how are the planes from the invading army doing now that the new Ukrainian air defense has been deployed?I can't believe people are this gullible. The F16's will make no difference whatsoever, just like they Leopards didn't, just like the storm shadows didn't, just like the ATACMS didn't. I could go on and on. The F16's when they arrive will be quickly shot down and they will burn.
Two of my replies to you have been lost somewhere in the forum abyss, and I'm not feeling like wasting another 20 minutes replicating them. But here are the reasons why you're wrong on almost all counts.
1. Ukraine would be crazy to trust Russia about anything. I don't expect you to agree with me. I actually understand why you wouldn't -- it really boggles the mind to grasp Russia's historic disregard for any treaties and agreements it deems "unfair" and "inconvenient". Hint: it didn't start with Putin or Stalin or even Lenin. That's how Russia has rolled for centuries.
2. Ending like Korea is completely unrealistic. That ceasefire is based upon the might of the United States. There is no way in hell a similar arrangement is even remotely possible in Ukraine.
4. Are these people fanatics who are prepared to launch the nuclear apocalypses (that will end Russia too)? No, these people are not fanatics. They're corrupt, wealthier than god, swindlers; they love their yachts, jets and mansions; and they have no desire to commit a murder-suicide of the world. That's not even mentioning their families and their hoars who're all living here, in the West. Who exactly are they going to bomb? I'm more scared of a drunken accident or misunderstanding in this high-pitched environment.
5. Russia is a giant with feet of clay. Its war effort has already cannibalized the economy, and all Putin's posturing and saber-rattling is just smoke and mirrors. Which are the only two products Russia truly excels in.Do a search on username Xpartan for Tiny12 and you'll find them all. We were arguing about this 7 months ago, before Paulie ran me off, and neither Ukraine nor Russia had gained any territory in the 6 months prior to that. The battle lines are still stuck where they were over a year ago. And maybe a couple of hundred thousand more people have been killed or maimed.
You gentlemen perennially believe Ukraine is on the cusp of a victory. Prigozhin is going to overthrow Putin. Ukraine's counteroffensive is pushing out the Russians. The Ukrainians will kick ass with the F16's. Russia's economy is about to fall apart. Well it ain't happening. The two sides will just keep on slugging it out, killing each other and making life a lot more difficult for the Ukrainians.
If you believe the Russians are rational, not fanatics, why wouldn't they be content to sit on Crimea and the area they currently occupy in Donbas after a ceasefire? The invasion of Ukraine is Russia's biggest military misadventure in over 100 years, Afghanistan included. The Ukrainians have shown they have the will and the ability to resist, and Putin apparently is looking for a face saving way out. Europe and the USA should encourage the Ukrainians to put an end to this, instead of contributing to their fantasy that they can regain all territory lost since 2014. The majority of people in the area occupied by Russia would prefer to be affiliated with Russia instead of Ukraine anyway.
Elvis 2008
12-29-23, 01:20
In my humble opinion I think that is the viable option at this juncture. The only way Ukraine can ensure its security is to commit to no EU and no NATO membership and remove the current government. That is just the Red pill they need to take. When you live next to a superpower it is a hard reality that you have to succumb to the wishes of your bigger Brother. Look at Cuba, look at Mexico. Do you think Mexico will survive a day if it becomes a Russian Satellite state with Nukes planted in its territory? No.I need to start giving compliments as often as I tell people they are wrong. Like Blood Red said, this is a great realistic post, and I totally agree with everything you wrote.
John Clayton
12-29-23, 05:31
In my humble opinion I think that is the viable option at this juncture. The only way Ukraine can ensure its security is to commit to no EU and no NATO membership and remove the current government. That is just the Red pill they need to take. When you live next to a superpower it is a hard reality that you have to succumb to the wishes of your bigger Brother. Look at Cuba, look at Mexico. Do you think Mexico will survive a day if it becomes a Russian Satellite state with Nukes planted in its territory? No.I don't know who you work for or how you are being paid but, frankly, you are disseminating Kremlin propaganda. Let me remind you that in 1994 Russia signed a treaty with Ukraine to:
1 Respect the signatory's independence and sovereignty in the existing borders (in accordance with the principles of the...
2 Refrain from the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of the signatories to the memorandum, and undertake that none of their weapons will ever be used against these countries, except in cases of self-defense or otherwise in accordance with the Charter of the United Nations...
3 Refrain from economic coercion designed to subordinate to their own interest the exercise by Ukraine, the Republic of Belarus and Kazakhstan of the rights inherent in its sovereignty and thus to secure advantages of any kind.
et cetera
Do a search on username Xpartan for Tiny12 and you'll find them all. Nope, not there.
You gentlemen perennially believe Ukraine is on the cusp of a victory. Prigozhin is going to overthrow Putin. Ukraine's counteroffensive is pushing out the Russians. The Ukrainians will kick ass with the F16's. Russia's economy is about to fall apart. Well it ain't happening. The two sides will just keep on slugging it out, killing each other and making life a lot more difficult for the Ukrainians. Well, aside from Russia's economy falling apart, which I do insist is true, I don't know what "gentlemen" you're referring to. But your kind concern for Ukrainians is noted. Not that you're in good company, though, as every Kremlin troll in this thread is hurting for the wellbeing of Ukrainians. With friends like you fellas, who needs enemies?
If you believe the Russians are rationalIf they were rational, they wouldn't a) attack; b) attack a 40-million strong country with 100,000 troops; c) attack expecting that the populace that hates their guts would greet them with flowers.
why wouldn't they be content to sit on Crimea and the area they currently occupy in Donbas after a ceasefire? Why weren't they?
Putin apparently is looking for a face saving way out. For now. The moment he gains strength, however, he'll use the currently occupied territories as a springboard to attack again. And it'll be 100 times worse.
Europe and the USA should encourage the Ukrainians to put an end to this, instead of contributing to their fantasy that they can regain all territory lost since 2014. Again, I understand this notion coming from someone who doesn't know Russia and its turbulent history. Those of us who do know how "Russia rolls" can confidently predict that it will disintegrate. This war will be an empire killer, much worse than Afghanistan and 1992. When that happens, Ukraine will get its lands back and sooner than you can imagine.
The majority of people in the area occupied by Russia would prefer to be affiliated with Russia instead of Ukraine anyway. See, when you mindlessly repeat Kremlin propaganda like this, that just chips away at your credibility big time. Seriously.
I don't know who you work for or how you are being paidI do.
https://www.propublica.org/article/infamous-russian-troll-farm-appears-to-be-source-of-anti-ukraine-propaganda
Reiner Otto
12-29-23, 13:10
Let me remind you that in 1994 Russia signed a treaty with Ukraine to:
1 Respect the signatory's independence and sovereignty in the existing borders (in accordance with the principles of the...
You are quoting the "Memorandum of Budapest". Problem is, that aggressive dictators, like Hitler or his pupil, Putler, do not care about contracts.
Polling data from the occupiers can be discarded.
See, when you mindlessly repeat Kremlin propaganda like this, that just chips away at your credibility big time. Seriously.So Dzerkalo Tyzhnia, the Ukrainian Institute of the Future, Gallup, Pew Research, and Germany's GfK Group (the largest German market research company) are arms of the Kremlin?
OK, I'll spell it out for you. I've added info from links in the quotes below.
Please see this article from 2019.
https://www.kyivpost.com/post/7557
Only 5.1 percent of people living in the Russia-controlled parts of Donetsk and Luhansk regions want Ukraine to regain control over the territories under the old terms, according to the findings of a joint survey conducted by the Ukrainian Institute of the Future and the Dzerkalo Tyzhnia. Ukraine weekly newspaper with the assistance of New Image Marketing Group, which were unveiled on Nov. 9, 2019....Half (50.9 percent) want a union with Russia and another 13.4 percent said the region should accede to Russia with a "special status." For the whole of Donbas, including its Ukraine-controlled areas, 49.6 percent want it to become part of Russia, with another 13.3 percent choosing such a scenario with a "special status" for Donbas. A fifth (19.2 percent) see Donbas as part of Ukraine."
So apparently 50.9% wanted to live in a Russian oblast, and another 13.4% in something like a Russian territory (e.g. like Puerto Rico in the USA). Only 5.1% wanted to live in a Ukrainian controlled oblast.
To be clear, the preceding is from the Kyiv Post, not Wikipedia. However, according to Wikipedia, Dzerkalo Tyzhnia, a Ukrainian newspaper, "is nonpartisan, while strongly liberal-leaning by Ukrainian Standards. Dzerkalo Tyzhnia is partially funded by Western non-governmental organizations. The paper is widely read and highly regarded among Ukrainian business and political elites which largely explains its political influence."
The web site is here. It's clearly pro-Ukrainian.
https://zn.ua/
The Ukrainian Institute for the Future also clearly is pro-Ukrainian. Here's a link to their web site.
https://uifuture.org/
See here for info about polls in Crimea.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Crimean_status_referendum
The pre-2014 polls are a mixed bag, but post referendum polls indicate a preference for being a part of Russia:
"The results of a survey by the U.S. government Broadcasting Board of Governors agency, conducted April 2129, 2014, showed that 83% of Crimeans felt that the results of the March 16 referendum on Crimea's status likely reflected the views of most people there, whereas this view is shared only by 30% in the rest of Ukraine.
Gallup conducted an immediate post-referendum survey of Ukraine and Crimea and published their results in April 2014. Gallup reported that, among the population of Crimea, 93.6% of ethnic Russians and 68.4% of ethnic Ukrainians believed the referendum result accurately represents the will of the Crimean people. Only 1.7% of ethnic Russians and 14.5% of ethnic Ukrainians living in Crimea thought that the referendum results didn't accurately reflect the views of the Crimean people. According to the Gallup's survey performed on April 2127, 82.8% of Crimean people consider the referendum results reflecting most Crimeans' views, and 73.9% of Crimeans say Crimea's becoming part of Russia will make life better for themselves and their families, while 5.5% disagree.
In May 2014, Washington, D.C., pollster Pew Research published results of a survey that encompassed Crimea, Ukraine, and Russia, in which it was reported that 88% of Crimeans believed the government of Kyiv should officially recognize the result of Crimea's referendum. According to survey carried out by Pew Research Center in April 2014, the majority of Crimean residents say they believed the referendum was free and fair (91%) and that the government in Kyiv ought to recognize the results of the vote (88%).
From January 16 22, 2015, Germany's GfK Group, with support from the Canada Fund for Local Initiatives, followed-up their pre-referendum survey of Crimeans' voting intention with a post-referendum survey about how satisfied Crimeans are with the outcome of their referendum. GfK's post-referendum survey found that 82% of Crimeans "Fully endorse" Crimea's referendum and return to Russia, while another 11% "Mostly endorse" it. According to a poll of the Crimeans by the Ukrainian branch of Germany's biggest market research organization, GfK, on January 1622, 2015: "Eighty-two percent of those polled said they fully supported Crimea's inclusion in Russia, and another 11 percent expressed partial support. Only 4 percent spoke out against it. ... Fifty-one percent reported their well-being had improved in the past year." Bloomberg's Leonid Bershidsky noted that "The calls were made on Jan. 1622 to people living in towns with a population of 20,000 or more, which probably led to the peninsula's native population, the Tatars, being underrepresented because many of them live in small villages. On the other hand, no calls were placed in Sevastopol, the most pro-Russian city in Crimea. Even with these limitations, it was the most representative independent poll taken on the peninsula since its annexation."
And if you come back with Paulie's refrain, that you can't trust anything in Wikipedia, it's going to be hard to take that seriously unless you go back to their references and show they're B.S.
I have seen some dumb post, but this is dumbest of all time. Why anyone would even consider playing around In country at war is bizarre and potentially a death sentence, but this is Ukraine, nothing surprises me.Other than occasionally lying about visiting certain Latin American cities, ones you demonstrated you know nothing about, you are here to bash Ukraine. And though it's true that vacationing in a city under threat of bombardment isn't wise while better choices exist, the Ukrainian people are doing exactly as they should when they go on with their lives as best as possible. While you are at it, mock the British who did the same during World War II. These are examples of courage that you certainly know nothing about.
I don't know who you work for or how you are being paid but, frankly, you are disseminating Kremlin propaganda.
I do.
https://www.propublica.org/article/infamous-russian-troll-farm-appears-to-be-source-of-anti-ukraine-propagandaGentlemen, Zenduka is not employed by the Russian government. He's a Tijuana monger.
....I don't know what "gentlemen" you're referring to.... In this case Xpartan, I'm referring to you and Clayton. It's EXTREMELY unlikely you're executives of Lockheed Martin, Ukrainian intelligence operatives, neoconservative policy makers, or Dick Cheney. Rather you're gentlemen posting on ISG.
And if you come back with Paulie's refrain, that you can't trust anything in Wikipedia, it's going to be hard to take that seriously unless you go back to their references and show they're B.S.When you source Wikipedia you show yourself as someone who isn't serious. If you believe their references are good, then follow them, post those links and tell us why you think they are valid. You obviously have enough time on your hands. But it's all irrelevant anyway, as this was all hashed out long before you found this thread. Here's an excerpt from an earlier post from Jmsuttr. I'm personally not going in circles here, have better things to do, like retirement and travel. As to you, I recommend that you stop trying to defend the indefensible here and go back to your Libertarian thing in the Opinions Politics forum.
"As the USSR was in the process of dissolution, Ukraine's legislature declared independence TWICE, once in July of 1990 and then again in August of 1991.
https://www.npr.org/2022/02/12/10802...ukraine-russia
And Russia OFFICIALLY recognized Ukrainian independence in August 1991.
https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/...ime-story.html
Ukraine followed up the declaration by holding a referendum vote that encompassed EVERY part of the territory that was universally recognized as the (now former) Ukraine Soviet Socialist Republic.
Here are the voting percentages, and you'll notice the first area on the list is Crimea, and further down you'll see the Donbas regions of Luhansk and Donetsk (both over 80 percent).
https://soviethistory.msu.edu/1991-2...e-declaration/
If Russia had any territorial claims to make, or any objection to the referendum being held in Crimea, or the Donbas, that was the time to raise the issue. All the events of 1991 detailed above are conclusive evidence that Crimea, Donbas, and ALL the territory of the Ukraine SSR, were considered part of the newly independent Ukraine. And that fact was officially recognized by Russia, Ukraine itself, and the world at large.
But wait, there's more!
In 1997 two treaties were signed between Ukraine and Russia. One was the "Partition Treaty on the Status and Conditions of the Black Sea Fleet," and the other was the "Russian-Ukrainian Friendship Treaty" In neither of those treaties did Russia seek to exert a claim on Crimea or any other area.
Two additional points re 1997:
1. As part of the Friendship Treaty, BOTH nations recognized the inviolability of EXISTING borders. And those borders included Crimea + Donbas as part of Ukraine (see 1991).
2. As part of the Black Sea Fleet Status Treaty, by agreeing to pay Ukraine for the lease of the naval base at Sevastopol, Russia explicitly recognized it as sovereign Ukrainian territory. They, Russia, were leasing from the owner, Ukraine.
I could go on, but there's no need. From 1991 the world has recognized that Crimea is part of the territory of Ukraine, and the Donbas as well. Russia itself also recognized this fact from 1991 to 2014, when they decided to invade. But, aside from maybe a couple of rogue states, NO country in the world accepts Russia's annexation of Crimea OR the Donbas. Not China and, IIRC, not even Iran. " Jmsuttr.
After 9 years of war Russia still only controls 17% of Ukrainian territory. That's pretty sad for a super power, isn't it? While they are dealing with a neighbor, right next door.
Gentlemen, Zenduka is not employed by the Russian government. He's a Tijuana monger.With all his posts having appeared within the last week? I'd say "based" is a presumption, not fact.
Besides, why would it matter? Some members posting blatant Kremlin propaganda here play in OAE, others in South America. Those people aren't just voicing their opinions; they repeat and repost Russian lies.
Quite honestly, when someone posts pure BS bits of propaganda from a hostile government on a mongering forum, I just can't help wondering why.
So Dzerkalo Tyzhnia, the Ukrainian Institute of the Future, Gallup, Pew Research, and Germany's GfK Group (the largest German market research company) are arms of the Kremlin?
OK, I'll spell it out for you. I've added info from links in the quotes below.
To be clear, the preceding is from the Kyiv Post, not Wikipedia. However, according to Wikipedia, Dzerkalo Tyzhnia, a Ukrainian newspaper, "is nonpartisan, while strongly liberal-leaning by Ukrainian Standards. Dzerkalo Tyzhnia is partially funded by Western non-governmental organizations. The paper is widely read and highly regarded among Ukrainian business and political elites which largely explains its political influence."
The web site is here. It's clearly pro-Ukrainian.
https://zn.ua/
The Ukrainian Institute for the Future also clearly is pro-Ukrainian. Here's a link to their web site.
https://uifuture.org/
And if you come back with Paulie's refrain, that you can't trust anything in Wikipedia, it's going to be hard to take that seriously unless you go back to their references and show they're B.S.Every good lie has bits of truth mixed in. It is true that many ethnic Russians in Crimea and Donbas cheered on the occupiers when they orchestrated the coups in 2014. Being as it is, you're not dumb. You simply can't not understand that any polls and / or referendums that took place under the threat of violence from an occupying army can't be taken seriously. You'd have to be completely detached from reality to believe that any honest polling is possible under these circumstances.
In addition, today the Russians are occupying much more than Crimea and Donbas. How do you like the "referendums" in Kherson and Zaporozhia? Genuine, you think?
That's not even mentioning that even if there is a local majority anywhere in the world, they can't just decide to secede from the state because they feel like it. Ask the Kurds, the Catalans, the Basques, the Flemish, the Cypriots, the people of Nagorno-Karabakh and probably dozens of more separatist movements around the world or simply go back to Abe Lincoln, if you don't believe me.
Fortunately, I know you ain't dumb. You're just stubborn.
When you source Wikipedia you show yourself as someone who isn't serious. If you believe their references are good, then follow them, post those links and tell us why you think they are valid. You obviously have enough time on your hands. But it's all irrelevant anyway, as this was all hashed out long before you found this thread. Here's an excerpt from an earlier post from Jmsuttr. I'm personally not going in circles here, have better things to do, like retirement and travel. As to you, I recommend that you stop trying to defend the indefensible here and go back to your Libertarian thing in the Opinions Politics forum.
"As the USSR was in the process of dissolution, Ukraine's legislature declared independence TWICE, once in July of 1990 and then again in August of 1991.
https://www.npr.org/2022/02/12/10802...ukraine-russia
And Russia OFFICIALLY recognized Ukrainian independence in August 1991.
https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/...ime-story.html
Ukraine followed up the declaration by holding a referendum vote that encompassed EVERY part of the territory that was universally recognized as the (now former) Ukraine Soviet Socialist Republic.
Here are the voting percentages, and you'll notice the first area on the list is Crimea, and further down you'll see the Donbas regions of Luhansk and Donetsk (both over 80 percent).
https://soviethistory.msu.edu/1991-2...e-declaration/
If Russia had any territorial claims to make, or any objection to the referendum being held in Crimea, or the Donbas, that was the time to raise the issue. All the events of 1991 detailed above are conclusive evidence that Crimea, Donbas, and ALL the territory of the Ukraine SSR, were considered part of the newly independent Ukraine. And that fact was officially recognized by Russia, Ukraine itself, and the world at large.
But wait, there's more!
In 1997 two treaties were signed between Ukraine and Russia. One was the "Partition Treaty on the Status and Conditions of the Black Sea Fleet," and the other was the "Russian-Ukrainian Friendship Treaty" In neither of those treaties did Russia seek to exert a claim on Crimea or any other area.
Two additional points re 1997:
1. As part of the Friendship Treaty, BOTH nations recognized the inviolability of EXISTING borders. And those borders included Crimea + Donbas as part of Ukraine (see 1991).
2. As part of the Black Sea Fleet Status Treaty, by agreeing to pay Ukraine for the lease of the naval base at Sevastopol, Russia explicitly recognized it as sovereign Ukrainian territory. They, Russia, were leasing from the owner, Ukraine.
I could go on, but there's no need. From 1991 the world has recognized that Crimea is part of the territory of Ukraine, and the Donbas as well. Russia itself also recognized this fact from 1991 to 2014, when they decided to invade. But, aside from maybe a couple of rogue states, NO country in the world accepts Russia's annexation of Crimea OR the Donbas. Not China and, IIRC, not even Iran. " Jmsuttr.
Every good lie has bits of truth mixed in. It is true that many ethnic Russians in Crimea and Donbas cheered on the occupiers when they orchestrated the coups in 2014. Being as it is, you're not dumb. You simply can't not understand that any polls and / or referendums that took place under the threat of violence from an occupying army can't be taken seriously. You'd have to be completely detached from reality to believe that any honest polling is possible under these circumstances.
In addition, today the Russians are occupying much more than Crimea and Donbas. How do you like the "referendums" in Kherson and Zaporozhia? Genuine, you think?
That's not even mentioning that even if there is a local majority anywhere in the world, they can't just decide to secede from the state because they feel like it. Ask the Kurds, the Catalans, the Basques, the Flemish, the Cypriots, the people of Nagorno-Karabakh and probably dozens of more separatist movements around the world or simply go back to Abe Lincoln, if you don't believe me.I never said and don't believe that Russia's takeover of Ukrainian territory was legal or justified or right. I believe the opposite. And yes, in the 1990's, and before Russian occupation, a smaller percentage of residents of Crimea and Donbas would have preferred to be part of Russia compared to the percentage in, say, 2019.
That doesn't change the reality of the here and now.
Hundreds of thousands of people are being killed or maimed while the two countries slug it out. Neither side will win. They'll both end up losers. So why not just stop fighting? The point is that the majority of the people who live in the occupied areas didn't even want to be part of Ukraine just prior to when hostilities broke out in 2022. If there's a ceasefire that becomes permanent, along existing battle lines, you're not creating a new Kurdistan or whatever.
You're not stupid either Xpartan. The Dzerkalo Tyzhnia / Ukrainian Institute of the Future poll was conducted in person, and there's no reason why telephone interviews conducted by Gallup, Pew Research, or GfK would reflect Russian government views instead of reality either.
You realize there's a big difference between a poll conducted by a Ukrainian or Western organization and a staged referendum. The fact that the voting percentages for the referendums in Kherson or Zaporozhia don't accurately reflect reality doesn't mean the same is true of polls.
Given that you're retired now Paulie, you should have plenty of time to try to debunk the poll results described in Wikipedia. Just go to the references. Don't expect me to do your work for you. Google translate is your friend. And your link purportedly showing that 80% of Donetsk and Luhansk wanted to be part of Ukraine in 1991 doesn't work. Nor do your NPR and Chicago Tribune links. It must be those Russian trolls, up to no good.
After 9 years of war Russia still only controls 17% of Ukrainian territory. That's pretty sad for a super power, isn't it? While they are dealing with a neighbor, right next door.So why do you think the rest of Ukraine, Moldova, the Baltic Republics and Eastern Europe will be the next to fall if there's a ceasefire along the current lines of control?
So why do you think the rest of Ukraine, Moldova, the Baltic Republics and Eastern Europe will be the next to fall if there's a ceasefire along the current lines of control?LOL. Exactly. On one hand the collective west says Putin and Russia have already lost the war because they didn't take Kiev, that the Russian army is incompetent, they are running out of ammo, morale is low, blah blah blah. But then they say Putin won't stop with Ukraine and will go for Poland and the Baltic states. Make up your mind please.
Elvis 2008
01-02-24, 00:11
With all his posts having appeared within the last week? I'd say "based" is a presumption, not fact.
Besides, why would it matter? Some members posting blatant Kremlin propaganda here play in OAE, others in South America. Those people aren't just voicing their opinions; they repeat and repost Russian lies.The reason I call you guys Democratic douches is because of posts like this.
Do you understand the POV that our tax dollars could be better spent on health care, education, rebuilding Maui after the fires, on our infrastructure, securing the border, or keeping that money in our fucking pockets ETC versus this war in Ukraine where millions are dying and now is in a stalemate?
Do you understand that the domino theory, the rationale for fighting in Ukraine (first it is Ukraine, then Poland, then the rest of Europe) is the SAME fucking rationale that was used in Vietnam?
Do you get that when a person says that they think money could be better spent elsewhere or kept in their pocket, that does not mean they are spewing Russian propaganda or want to suck Putin's dick or want Ukraine over run?
Do you understand that President Obama said that the USA had no vital interests in Ukraine and was not going to defend it versus Russian aggression?
Because I do not think you understand any of it. I understand Democratic positions. I do not agree with most of them, but I understand them. I have no issue with people who vote Democrats whether it is based on feeling or fact.
What I DO have a problem with is the arrogant Democratic douche who swears up and down whenever anyone disagrees with them that person is stupid, ill informed, wants to suck Putin's dick and could give a fuck about dead Ukrainians and Democracy.
I saw this arrogance on display with Covid, with the vaccine, and now with Ukraine. What amazes me so much right now is you Democratic douches have literally picked out a guy who cannot walk right, who tried to shake the hand of a person who was not there, who cannot even remember what day of the week it is and say, "This guy knows what he is doing, and you are stupid if you do not trust him. ".
Do you think maybe, just maybe others have a point or are you 100% sure you are right about everything?
I never said and don't believe that Russia's takeover of Ukrainian territory was legal or justified or right. I believe the opposite. And yes, in the 1990's, and before Russian occupation, a smaller percentage of residents of Crimea and Donbas would have preferred to be part of Russia compared to the percentage in, say, 2019.
That doesn't change the reality of the here and now.
Hundreds of thousands of people are being killed or maimed while the two countries slug it out. Neither side will win. They'll both end up losers. So why not just stop fighting? The point is that the majority of the people who live in the occupied areas didn't even want to be part of Ukraine just prior to when hostilities broke out in 2022. If there's a ceasefire that becomes permanent, along existing battle lines, you're not creating a new Kurdistan or whatever.1. For one thing it's their country. Who do you think you are to tell them to stop fighting for their homeland?
Oh, but you'll say, fine, let them fight on their own dime.
Well, no. Ukraine fighting is the best possible bargain for the West. Russia is already crippled both economically and militarily and as long as they're stuck in Ukraine, Europe and the world in whole are safER. Weakening Russia, making sure that it's not capable of launching new attacks against its neighbors is the smartest policy we should stick to.
Unfortunately, there are always tens of Chamberlains for every Churchill, so as long as cowards and isolationists are ruling the world, the future of this existential fight is unclear.
2. Then there is your favorite argument about how Russia is rational and only wants to end this war.
Well, if you stopped ignoring what people familiar with Putin's biography and 23-year history of "Putinism" in Russia have told you many times over, you would have to drop this nonsense about making peace.
Or I don't know, maybe you too have this crazy, mind-blowing infatuation with Putin like most right-wingers. I mean, Trump did call him a genius, didn't he?
No, Putin is not rational. No, he's not pragmatic. For 20+ years he has been pillaging a huge country with impunity and almost no dissent from the obedient population. He's the richest man in the world. He had it so fucking good! So what does he do? He starts rebuilding the empire. He wages a full-scale war sending 100,000 troops to defeat a 40-million strong nation.
Now all his wealth will never matter. He will never be able to travel to any civilized country. He'll never be able to use his yachts, his jets and all his mansions in the West. In addition, he will very likely lose his country, presidency and his own head.
How rational is all that again?
You're not stupid either Xpartan. The Dzerkalo Tyzhnia / Ukrainian Institute of the Future poll was conducted in person, and there's no reason why telephone interviews conducted by Gallup, Pew Research, or GfK would reflect Russian government views instead of reality either.
You realize there's a big difference between a poll conducted by a Ukrainian or Western organization and a staged referendum. The fact that the voting percentages for the referendums in Kherson or Zaporozhia don't accurately reflect reality doesn't mean the same is true of polls. 3. Polls? In person? You have no idea what totalitarian regime means, do you? I don't care if they conducted their polls whispering -- people DO NOT tell what they think when it goes against the official occupiers policy.
And they sure as hell won't tell you the truth over the phone (ESPECIALLY over the phone).
Again, are there ethnic Russians who want to remain under Russia's control? Yes, absolutely!
Does the majority of people in Donbas and Crimea want to remain under Russia's control? We simply don't know. But we must assume that all the polls and surveys conducted after 2014 are complete and utter BS. Their referendums even more so.
And now, after they've been grabbing men off the streets of Donbas and Crimea cities, sending them to their deaths without any training and sufficient weapons -- you can be sure as hell that this support has evaporated.
So why do you think the rest of Ukraine, Moldova, the Baltic Republics and Eastern Europe will be the next to fall if there's a ceasefire along the current lines of control?I don't know what Paulie thinks, but here is my take. Moldova will definitely, fall. 100%. It's very weak and would be an easy prey for Russia.
The "rest of Ukraine" will very likely be attacked when Russia gets stronger. Of course, if Ukraine also gets stronger, Russia might not dare, just like they decided not to finish off Finland in 1940's. Finland, however, paid a heavy price for their independence, and I find it highly unlikely that Ukraine will be willing to pay it too.
The Baltics maybe. In the very least, the Russians will be poking and provoking until the NATO has to get involved. What happens then is everyone's guess.
Poland -- probably not. It has a relatively strong army even without the NATO umbrella.
Then there is Georgia that might also be attacked if their Parliament loses its pro-Russian majority.
In any case, undefeated Russia will be a major source of instability for Europe for decades to come, and tens of thousands more (at least) will have to die, just because you and Elvis would rather save a few rubles.
1. For one thing it's their country. Who do you think you are to tell them to stop fighting for their homeland?
Oh, but you'll say, fine, let them fight on their own dime.I think they should fight on YOUR dime. If you want to contribute to Ukrainian defenses, out of your own pocket, or go to Ukraine and fight, you should be allowed to. I do not agree with the Biden administration and neoconservatives from both USA parties, and many European leaders, that we must provide Zelensky with a blank check to push Russia out of Ukraine, no matter how long it takes, how many lives will be lost, or how much money it costs. And to the Biden Administration's credit, maybe it is finally starting to come around.
https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2023/12/27/biden-endgame-ukraine-00133211
Well, no. Ukraine fighting is the best possible bargain for the West. Russia is already crippled both economically and militarily and as long as they're stuck in Ukraine, Europe and the world in whole are safER. Weakening Russia, making sure that it's not capable of launching new attacks against its neighbors is the smartest policy we should stick to.The last thing we need is another cold war. This is the way USA Foreign and defense policy has operated for many, many years, and it comes back to bite us. Look at Vietnam, Iraq, Iran, Zaire, Nicaragua -- there's a long list.
And Russia is not crippled economically or militarily. Its GDP, adjusted for inflation, is higher than it was before the invasion. They're ramping up production of armaments and have a much larger pool of young men than the Ukrainians that they can send to slaughter.
Unfortunately, there are always tens of Chamberlains for every Churchill, so as long as cowards and isolationists are ruling the world, the future of this existential fight is unclear.Well, it's a damn good thing that the "cowards and isolationists" as you put it (I'd use very different words) now rule the world. There hasn't been a World War III. Since 1980, very, very little territory has been forcibly annexed through warfare compared to past periods. And as to existential fights, I hope the politicians you admire don't get us into one. Nobody wins a nuclear war.
2. Then there is your favorite argument about how Russia is rational and only wants to end this war.
Well, if you stopped ignoring what people familiar with Putin's biography and 23-year history of "Putinism" in Russia have told you many times over, you would have to drop this nonsense about making peace.
Or I don't know, maybe you too have this crazy, mind-blowing infatuation with Putin like most right-wingers. I mean, Trump did call him a genius, didn't he?
No, Putin is not rational. No, he's not pragmatic. For 20+ years he has been pillaging a huge country with impunity and almost no dissent from the obedient population. He's the richest man in the world. He had it so fucking good! So what does he do? He starts rebuilding the empire. He wages a full-scale war sending 100,000 troops to defeat a 40-million strong nation.
Now all his wealth will never matter. He will never be able to travel to any civilized country. He'll never be able to use his yachts, his jets and all his mansions in the West. In addition, he will very likely lose his country, presidency and his own head.
How rational is all that again?Please make up your mind. I thought you were arguing that Putin would not use nuclear weapons because he prefers to stay alive and wealthy and powerful, that is, because he is rational.
Trump intuitively knew how to handle Putin, kiss his ass while being firm when it counts. The Nord Stream 2 pipeline wasn't going to go on stream while Trump was in power, and NATO countries upped their defense expenditures substantially.
3. Polls? In person? You have no idea what totalitarian regime means, do you? I don't care if they conducted their polls whispering -- people DO NOT tell what they think when it goes against the official occupiers policy.
And they sure as hell won't tell you the truth over the phone (ESPECIALLY over the phone).
Again, are there ethnic Russians who want to remain under Russia's control? Yes, absolutely!
Does the majority of people in Donbas and Crimea want to remain under Russia's control? We simply don't know. But we must assume that all the polls and surveys conducted after 2014 are complete and utter BS. Their referendums even more so.
And now, after they've been grabbing men off the streets of Donbas and Crimea cities, sending them to their deaths without any training and sufficient weapons -- you can be sure as hell that this support has evaporated.Actually in addition to the Donbas poll, the Gallup and Pew polls in Crimea were also person-to-person. I'm not sure about the others. Putin doesn't control unbiased pollsters in Russia, or Crimea or Donbas. If he did, we wouldn't be reading about very low Russian support for the war right now, around 12%. Or that 50% of Russians want the war to end in 2024. I imagine many young men in both countries who are being conscripted just want the war to end.
BTW, on the subject of polls, support for territorial concessions to Russia in Ukraine is way up from past levels, although still only around 20%. And will go up a lot more in years to come if this senseless carnage continues.
I don't know what Paulie thinks, but here is my take. Moldova will definitely, fall. 100%. It's very weak and would be an easy prey for Russia.
The "rest of Ukraine" will very likely be attacked when Russia gets stronger. Of course, if Ukraine also gets stronger, Russia might not dare, just like they decided not to finish off Finland in 1940's. Finland, however, paid a heavy price for their independence, and I find it highly unlikely that Ukraine will be willing to pay it too.
The Baltics maybe. In the very least, the Russians will be poking and provoking until the NATO has to get involved. What happens then is everyone's guess.
Poland -- probably not. It has a relatively strong army even without the NATO umbrella.
Then there is Georgia that might also be attacked if their Parliament loses its pro-Russian majority.Putin and Russia have most likely learned their lesson. They will continue to try to promote pro-Russian governments in Georgia, Moldova, and for that matter the USA. Any military incursion in a non-FSU country is very unlikely.
In any case, undefeated Russia will be a major source of instability for Europe for decades to come, and tens of thousands more (at least) will have to die, just because you and Elvis would rather save a few rubles.Come on Xpartan. You think Elvis and I have anything to do with USA Support or lack thereof for Ukraine? Blame the politicians, not us.
John Clayton
01-03-24, 21:50
I think they should fight on ... USA Support or lack thereof for Ukraine? Blame the politicians, not us.So, what is the outcome you desire for the current war? Mine is that the 1991, internationally recognized and guaranteed, borders should be restored.
Very sad what happened to the American journalist in Ukraine and very disappointing the American response to his imprisonment (Nothing). Fighting for democracy, what a joke.
Very sad what happened to the American journalist in Ukraine and very disappointing the American response to his imprisonment (Nothing). Fighting for democracy, what a joke.I assume you mean youtuber Gonzalo Lira. Better to name the person so people can look up the whole story, rather than this misleading propaganda style phrasing.
I hear that the Russian Duma is passing a new law allowing the state to steal the property of anyone who has been critical of Russia's invasion and war on Ukraine. What do you think about this Riina?
Hi fellow Mongers.
I'm not new but I was out fot five years due to car accident and time after wasn't time for mongering but right now I'm backing at the scene.
Iv read forum threads but didn't find what I'm looking for. And I'm looking for Ukrainian sites where you can meet WG's. I'm planing to visit Love and Kiev in next two week on business trip (yews need do business with Ukraina to maintain cash flow in Ukraina) so I plan to meet some cute girls but rather visit clubs I prefer meet with some WG's or some independent WG's.
If you can help I will be grateful for tips.
Regards.
Jacher.
Very sad what happened to the American journalist in Ukraine and very disappointing the American response to his imprisonment (Nothing). Fighting for democracy, what a joke.Journalist, LOL! Next you claim Soloviev and Skabeeva are journalists too.
Here is a balanced report on Lira's misadventures.
https://plus.thebulwark.com/p/anti-ukraine-chorus-exploit-gonzalo-lira-death
Hi fellow Mongers.
I'm not new but I was out fot five years due to car accident and time after wasn't time for mongering but right now I'm backing at the scene.
Iv read forum threads but didn't find what I'm looking for. And I'm looking for Ukrainian sites where you can meet WG's. I'm planing to visit Love and Kiev in next two week on business trip (yews need do business with Ukraina to maintain cash flow in Ukraina) so I plan to meet some cute girls but rather visit clubs I prefer meet with some WG's or some independent WG's.
If you can help I will be grateful for tips.
Regards.
Jacher.This is the wrong forum for mongering inquires. Try the Kiev forum instead.
http://www.internationalsexguide.nl/forum/showthread.php?816-Kyiv
DramaFree11
01-22-24, 02:41
Hi fellow Mongers.
I'm not new but I was out fot five years due to car accident and time after wasn't time for mongering but right now I'm backing at the scene.
Iv read forum threads but didn't find what I'm looking for. And I'm looking for Ukrainian sites where you can meet WG's. I'm planing to visit Love and Kiev in next two week on business trip (yews need do business with Ukraina to maintain cash flow in Ukraina) so I plan to meet some cute girls but rather visit clubs I prefer meet with some WG's or some independent WG's.
If you can help I will be grateful for tips.
Regards.
Jacher.This is so dumb, the post does not deserve a comment. Why would you believe anything on-line in Ukraine, especially now.
Journalist, LOL! Next you claim Soloviev and Skabeeva are journalists too.
Here is a balanced report on Lira's misadventures.
https://plus.thebulwark.com/p/anti-ukraine-chorus-exploit-gonzalo-lira-deathI don't need an article to know an insignificant youtuber was put in jail to die.
This is so dumb, the post does not deserve a comment. Why would you believe anything on-line in Ukraine, especially now.And yet you commented. Iv read your content. And I know to respond to a troll is bad idea but is such a fun to point one!!
To a those which gave me this what Iv need BIG THANKS. I'm always know that I will find here answers. When I find on those sites what I'm looking for I will post my report.
Regards.
Jacher.
So, what is the outcome you desire for the current war? Mine is that the 1991, internationally recognized and guaranteed, borders should be restored.Yeah. And Israel should return to the 1967 borders too. Turkey should give back Northern Cyprus too. Kosovo should be a part of Serbia again.
You live in lala land. Ukraine is never getting the 4 new territories or Crimea back.
Yeah. And Israel should return to the 1967 borders too. Turkey should give back Northern Cyprus too. Kosovo should be a part of Serbia again.
You live in lala land. Ukraine is never getting the 4 new territories or Crimea back.The old trusty whataboutism which involves lazy comparisons, especially when it comes to Kosovo whose independence came in the aftermath of decades of ethnic cleansing, while Israel is mostly on the defensive. Most Arabs despise them and want them completely out of the region. Much of the rest comes down to priorities. Russia, far from a small island has demonstrated time and again that they won't honor agreements. They've been clear in their desire to restore empire and threaten mainland Europe. They are the lowest of the low, while targeting civilians with precision weapons and exporting Ukrainian children to indoctrination camps. Therefore given whom they are dealing with Ukraine needs to fight on. While all the Nostradamuses like you have all been wrong.
It's possible the west will tire at some point. That's your only hope, though there will be always be underground resistance movements, no peace for the wicked. That's your la la land, and it will continue to be unpleasant.
The old trusty whataboutism which involves lazy comparisons, especially when it comes to Kosovo whose independence came in the aftermath of decades of ethnic cleansing, while Israel is mostly on the defensive. Most Arabs despise them and want them completely out of the region. Much of the rest comes down to priorities. Russia, far from a small island has demonstrated time and again that they won't honor agreements. They've been clear in their desire to restore empire and threaten mainland Europe. They are the lowest of the low, while targeting civilians with precision weapons and exporting Ukrainian children to indoctrination camps. Therefore given whom they are dealing with Ukraine needs to fight on. While all the Nostradamuses like you have all been wrong.
It's possible the west will tire at some point. That's your only hope, though there will be always be underground resistance movements, no peace for the wicked. That's your la la land, and it will continue to be unpleasant.LOL, as a true 'nostradamus' (unlike the fella you're replying to, who, almost undoubtedly, is a Russia state employee) I'll say this.
While the West seems to be tired and in disarray right now, the last quarter of 2024 will break this pattern. Trump and the Reps (the last Putin's hope) will lose miserably, the military aid to Ukraine will resume in spades, and not only will the Third Rome (or Fourth Reich, as some would call it more accurately) eventually return to the borders of 1991 -- it'll start devouring itself from the inside until it finally shrinks into a much smaller (and hopefully more peaceful) normally-sized country.
Till then, Ukraine must hold on, since you're absolutely right -- they don't have another choice.
DramaFree11
02-07-24, 06:33
LOL, as a true 'nostradamus' (unlike the fella you're replying to, who, almost undoubtedly, is a Russia state employee) I'll say this.
While the West seems to be tired and in disarray right now, the last quarter of 2024 will break this pattern. Trump and the Reps (the last Putin's hope) will lose miserably, the military aid to Ukraine will resume in spades, and not only will the Third Rome (or Fourth Reich, as some would call it more accurately) eventually return to the borders of 1991 -- it'll start devouring itself from the inside until it finally shrinks into a much smaller (and hopefully more peaceful) normally-sized country.
Till then, Ukraine must hold on, since you're absolutely right -- they don't have another choice.You need to stop taking drugs and watching CNN. You are truly Delusional. Hopefully soon Pres. Z. will be locked up and the war will end, but you, Biden and your wacko friends want this Ass Kicking to continue.
You need to stop taking drugs and watching CNN. You are truly Delusional. Hopefully soon Pres. Z. will be locked up and the war will end, but you, Biden and your wacko friends want this Ass Kicking to continue.The ones getting their asses kicked are the Russians, just ask Gerasimov he will be happy to explain the situation in detail for you.
You need to stop taking drugs and watching CNN. You are truly Delusional. Hopefully soon Pres. Z. will be locked up and the war will end, but you, Biden and your wacko friends want this Ass Kicking to continue.Drama Queen that is. Russia has lost over 50% of the territory they gained at the beginning of the invasion while they've buried in excess of 300,000 soldiers. That isn't kicking ass, while it's a sad testimony for a so called superpower.
Elvis 2008
02-09-24, 07:29
You need to stop taking drugs and watching CNN. You are truly Delusional. Hopefully soon Pres. Z. will be locked up and the war will end, but you, Biden and your wacko friends want this Ass Kicking to continue.Exactly. Xman's prediction was deranged. I just watched Tucker Carlson's interview with Putin, and Putin knocked it out of the park.
The comments on Zero Hedge were overwhelmingly the same. Man, do we wish we had a leader this intelligent and rational.
He pretty much took apart the whole neocon globalist argument piece by piece.
I can expect the same you want to suck Putin's dick comments again here.
Thing is what I would like to see is someone take down Putin's case instead of the stupid insults, but that is never going to happen.
Thing is what I would like to see is someone take down Putin's case instead of the stupid insults, but that is never going to happen.We've been taking down Kremlin propaganda / talking points here since the start of the war. It's all over this thread. JmSuttr was the best at it. I've been pretty good, as have been some others. The entire historical and philosophical basis for the invasion has been undercut, and with good source material. But you can't ask us all to do it over again from scratch when all anyone has to do is scroll back through the discussions. In my past worklife (retired now) I got paid for that sort of thing, and am not doing again for free here what I've already done about eight times. I've been generous enough Wink. But if you are really interested in our side of it there's content here, and plenty more in Google. I'll say this though, Ronald Reagan, a true conservative is turning in his grave at this sad state of affairs, the kowtowing to our historic enemy that has never more wanted to see us fail.
Elvis, according to my source (Washington Post) Carlson prodded out of Putes that he feels Russia has historic rights to parts of Ukraine, notably the Donbass and Crimea if not more, and that in fact was the reason for the invasion, not some fear of NATO as the hard right in the States wants to think. Carlson reportedly stated that he was "shocked" by that. But it makes perfect sense as prior to the invasion Putes gave a rambling history lesson going back hundreds of years that relatively few professional historians agree with. But it's neither here nor there as the Russian-Ukrainian Friendship Treaty was ratified in 1999 which confirmed the recognition of the inviolability of existing borders, ie. Donbass and Crimea are Ukraine. Did you pick that up in the interview? Here's the source but it's behind a paywall for most of you.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2024/02/11/tucker-carlson-vladimir-putin-interview/
But in any case it's ironic, as Putin is a war criminal and belongs at The Hague getting interrogated, not doing a sit-down with Carlson.
Exactly. Xman's prediction was deranged. I just watched Tucker Carlson's interview with Putin, and Putin knocked it out of the park.
The comments on Zero Hedge were overwhelmingly the same. Man, do we wish we had a leader this intelligent and rational.
He pretty much took apart the whole neocon globalist argument piece by piece.
I can expect the same you want to suck Putin's dick comments again here.What for? You've just confirmed what I've been saying all along with your own post. Case closed.
We've been taking down Kremlin propaganda / talking points here since the start of the war. It's all over this thread. JmSuttr was the best at it. I've been pretty good, as have been some others. The entire historical and philosophical basis for the invasion has been undercut, and with good source material. But you can't ask us all to do it over again from scratch when all anyone has to do is scroll back through the discussions. In my past worklife (retired now) I got paid for that sort of thing, and am not doing again for free here what I've already done about eight times. I've been generous enough Wink. But if you are really interested in our side of it there's content here, and plenty more in Google. I'll say this though, Ronald Reagan, a true conservative is turning in his grave at this sad state of affairs, the kowtowing to our historic enemy that has never more wanted to see us fail.If he'd had any interest in seeing "someone take down Putin's case", he would've found multiple honest analyses in a New York minute.
Tucker Carlson interview: Fact-checking Putin's 'nonsense'.
Putin, in rambling interview, barely lets Tucker Carlson get a word in.
Putin's Myths About Ukraine, Debunked.
Putin Used Tucker Carlson to Wipe the Kremlin's Floor.
Instead he went to the old and tested Zero Hedge, the source he knew wouldn't upset him or challenge his deranged viewpoints.
I don't know. If people like Elvis represent tens of millions of MAGAns (and I think he does represent them perfectly), then our future prospects are bleak. Ideology is one thing, but their admiration, their willingness to embrace the sworn enemy of this country who's threatening to annihilate us in nuclear holocaust is something else entirely. Reagan isn't turning in his grave -- he's spinning.
Elvis 2008
02-11-24, 20:23
We've been taking down Kremlin propaganda / talking points here since the start of the war. It's all over this thread.But Paulie, it was not just Russian propaganda. Putin reiterated that Ukraine and Russia had a peace deal and Boris Johnson destroyed it.
In her book The Plot, former Tory MP Nadine Dorries, a hardcore Boris partisan, proudly wrote that Boris was responsible for killing a peace deal with Russia over Ukraine as it was "the right thing to do," in Boris's apparent words.
https://www.zerohedge.com/geopolitical/boris-johnson-has-meltdown-after-being-exposed-sabotaging-ukraine-peace-deal
Then you look at the Bojo video and all he does is the same thing everyone on the left is saying: Don't listen to Tucker Carlson and Putin! That practically confirmed for me what the truth was.
All Putin did was confirm an already known fact. He even has the documentation to back up what he said.
But the key point for Americans is this:
Tucker: Do you think NATO is worried about this becoming a global war or a nuclear conflict?
Putin: At least that's what they are talking about. And they are trying to intimidate their own population with an imaginary Russian threat. This is an obvious fact. And thinking people, not philistines, those who are engaged in real politics, just smart people, understand perfectly well that this is a fake. They are trying to fuel the Russian threat.
Tucker: The threat I think you are referring to is a Russian invasion of Poland, Latvia, expansion.
Putin: We have no interest in Poland, Latvia or anywhere else. Why would we do that? Invade Poland? We simply don't have any interest. It's just threat mongering.
Tucker: Well, the argument, and I know you know this, is, well he invaded Ukraine, he has territorial aims across the continent, and you are saying unequivocally you don't.
Putin: It is absolutely out of the question. You don't have to be any kind of analyst, it goes against common sense to get involved in some kind of global war. And a global war would bring all of humanity to the brink of destruction. It's obvious. They have been scaring everyone with us, all along. Tomorrow Russia will use tactical nuclear weapons, tomorrow Russia will use that. No, the day after tomorrow. So what? In order to extort additional money from US taxpayers and European taxpayers in the confrontation with Russia.
Tucker: Chuck Schumer, said yesterday, that we have to continue funding the Ukrainian effort or US soldiers could wind up fighting there. How do you assess that?
Putin: This is a provocation, and a cheap provocation at that. I do not understand why American soldiers should fight in Ukraine. There are mercenaries from the United States there. The bigger number of mercenaries comes from Poland. Does the United States need this? What for? Thousands of miles away from your national territory. Don't you have anything better to do? You have issues on the border, issues on migration, issues with the national debt, more than $33 trillion dollars. You have nothing better to do so you fight in Ukraine. Realizing Russia will fight for its interests until the end.
End Transcript.
Thing I do not think Democrats get is that after Russiagate, all those millions of people who voted for Trump are going to be incredibly skeptical of Democrats and the intelligence agencies.
Is there anything outside of speculation that Putin is going to invade Europe after Ukraine? I do not see a compelling case that Putin goes into Europe. I am not even sure he could if the wanted to.
Elvis 2008
02-12-24, 07:47
Elvis, according to my source (Washington Post) Carlson prodded out of Putes that he feels Russia has historic rights to parts of Ukraine, notably the Donbass and Crimea if not more, and that in fact was the reason for the invasion, not some fear of NATO as the hard right in the States wants to think. Carlson reportedly stated that he was "shocked" by that. But it makes perfect sense as prior to the invasion Putes gave a rambling history lesson going back hundreds of years that relatively few professional historians agree with.Nah, Putin's history talk was going on for like the first full half hour of the interview. Carlson tried to push Putin to the more modern topic, but Putin kept going back to history. I am not sure why he did it. I think he wanted people to understand the fluidity of what a Ukrainian is and how its history is very complex. He made the point that Ukraine was filled not just with Russians but Hungarians as well, and there have always been disputes with Ukraine.
As for why there was an invasion, Putin said Russia and Ukraine had disputes since 2008, the Minsk accords were signed to stop the fighting but he said they were being violated by Ukraine (probably his biggest reason for the invasion). He also pointed to the rise of neonazism in Ukraine with the associated aggression towards Russia, and Ukraine bombing the Donbas region, and the rise of Western mercenaries and training of Ukrainian soldiers. He gave the impression he launched a pre-emptive strike and attacked Ukraine before Ukraine attached Russia.
Now you can say that is all nonsense which is fine, but that was his explanation not the notion that Ukraine belonged to Russia.
And you may say that fear of invading Russia is poppycock. No one would invade Russia but there is this guy Peter Zeihan who seems to be very well plugged into the CIA and the neocon way of thinking. And in this video he openly speculates about Poland launching an aggressive and expansive war against Russia. It was shocking to me to say the least: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RRoDjUcVOPY.
Were you trying to install imbedded links? If so they didn't take, and may not be possible on this site.
You missed my question. Let me repost. Read everything up to the question: "Did you pick that up in the interview?" Do you believe that Russia has rights to current Ukrainian territory, certain regions and perhaps the whole country based on distance history going back many centuries? This is Putin's angle that he's been quite clear about. Also what do you think of the Russian-Ukraine Friendship Treaty of 1999 that confirms the present borders?
Elvis, according to my source (Washington Post) Carlson prodded out of Putes that he feels Russia has historic rights to parts of Ukraine, notably the Donbass and Crimea if not more, and that in fact was the reason for the invasion, not some fear of NATO as the hard right in the States wants to think. Carlson reportedly stated that he was "shocked" by that. But it makes perfect sense as prior to the invasion Putes gave a rambling history lesson going back hundreds of years that relatively few professional historians agree with. But it's neither here nor there as the Russian-Ukrainian Friendship Treaty was ratified in 1999 which confirmed the recognition of the inviolability of existing borders, ie. Donbass and Crimea are Ukraine. Did you pick that up in the interview? Here's the source but it's behind a paywall for most of you.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world...tin-interview/
We've been taking down Kremlin propaganda / talking points here since the start of the war. It's all over this thread. JmSuttr was the best at it. I've been pretty good, as have been some others. The entire historical and philosophical basis for the invasion has been undercut, and with good source material. But you can't ask us all to do it over again from scratch when all anyone has to do is scroll back through the discussions.It might be worth collecting the links in one post to stop the constant sealioning from the Z propaganda team. The current tactic is to constantly regurgitate refuted points every couple of months to exhaust people. Would be much easier to just copy and paste one post they can refer to since they refuse to read the thread, or more likely deliberately ignoring the information, and hoping to skirt by with their lies and false interpretations.
Enter The V
02-12-24, 13:36
Why is this stupid war still going? Shouldn't Russia have won long time ago.
Elvis 2008
02-12-24, 14:18
Instead he went to the old and tested Zero Hedge, the source he knew wouldn't upset him or challenge his deranged viewpoints.
I was referring to the comments section. Your POV was well represented there Xpartan. That POV got down voted to shit but it was there. Unlike you Dems, zero hedge does not censor everything.
Elvis 2008
02-12-24, 14:28
It might be worth collecting the links in one post to stop the constant sealioning from the Z propaganda team. The current tactic is to constantly regurgitate refuted points every couple of months to exhaust people. Would be much easier to just copy and paste one post they can refer to since they refuse to read the thread, or more likely deliberately ignoring the information, and hoping to skirt by with their lies and false interpretations.Xpartan's link to Putin's lies referred to Putin's verbal history of the region. It was not exactly titillating stuff.
What lies are you talking about? Did Ukraine violate the Minsk agreement? Do neonazis not exist in Ukraine? Was the Dombas bombed by Ukraine? Didn't Boris Johnson scuttle peace talks?
The best I have seen is that Russia was violating the Minsk agreement as well, but tThis is the EXACT same attitude you lefties took with Russiagate and now you still do not fess up that it was all bullshit. So you Dems and your intelligence agencies need to do one helluva lot better with explaining yourselves than the same old cocky we know best attitude because we have seen that movie before, and whether you like it or not, on Russiagate, Putin was the one telling the truth, and you lefties were the ones lying.
Do neonazis not exist in Ukraine?That's quite a weak standard there man. Yes they do, and in the US, the UK, Germany, and many other Euro countries.
DramaFree11
02-12-24, 15:52
Xpartan's link to Putin's lies referred to Putin's verbal history of the region. It was not exactly titillating stuff.
What lies are you talking about? Did Ukraine violate the Minsk agreement? Do neonazis not exist in Ukraine? Was the Dombas bombed by Ukraine? Didn't Boris Johnson scuttle peace talks?
The best I have seen is that Russia was violating the Minsk agreement as well, but tThis is the EXACT same attitude you lefties took with Russiagate and now you still do not fess up that it was all bullshit. So you Dems and your intelligence agencies need to do one helluva lot better with explaining yourselves than the same old cocky we know best attitude because we have seen that movie before, and whether you like it or not, on Russiagate, Putin was the one telling the truth, and you lefties were the ones lying.Elvis these guys are idiots: they leave out the following information:
-440,000-500, Ukraine soldiers are dead, probably more. There is another 500-1 million so injured they will never be able to work again, or severe in the military.
-Millions were feeing the before the war.
-no new births of children.
-corruption is still rampant.
-I can go on.
For whatever reasons they want this crazy war to continue. The funny part is they all claim Trump / Putin will go to jail, but Pres Z. , will probably be the one that ends up in jail or killed. The sooner this happens the better off we will be. What a disaster and all the blame goes the Democratic's / the Euros.
The Minsk agreements related to cease fires. Russian backed separatists agreed to the first but not the second, obviously because it involved Ukrainian control of their land, the Donbass, and with elections to follow. That's all neither here nor there though to the Russia-Ukraine Friendship agreement of 1999 of which solidified Ukrainian territory, and that of course includes the Donbass and Crimea. You've yet to comment on this 1999 agreement, but did answer my other question.
https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/what-are-minsk-agreements-ukraine-conflict-2022-02-21/
Regarding Putins historic claims to Ukraine for Russia, here's a concise rebuttal.
https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/lseih/2020/07/01/there-is-no-ukraine-fact-checking-the-kremlins-version-of-ukrainian-history/
Even if Putin were correct this doesn't remove Ukraine's right to the territory that was guaranteed in the Russia-Ukraine Friendship agreement of 1999. And like it or not, Ukrainians are a separate people, with their own language, traditional dress, national heros, myths, historic national songs, art, literature, etc. That make up a distinct people. P.S. I'll add that any in the Donbass or Crimea that want to be Russian don't have far to travel as Russia is very close. They haven't any right to steal land. While only a handful of countries recognize Russia's annexation of Crimea. It's hardly an impressive list and includes Cuba, Venezuela, and Nicaragua.
But you know we get it, to you the Dems and Neo-cons are the bad guys while Putin and the "America First" right wing crowd in the states along with similar groups in Europe are good and honorable.
I personally consider Putin a war criminal that has murdered civilians with precision weapons while exporting Ukrainian children to indoctrination camps. I'm also convinced that the likelihood of him honoring any ceasefire agreements are practically zero. I consider myself an independent and a moderate.
DiVinci feel free to archive these links and any others you find. I'm way behind on work around the house, so may not be around for at least a few days.
Elvis 2008
02-13-24, 00:10
But you know we get it, to you the Dems and Neo-cons are the bad guys while Putin and the "America First" right wing crowd in the states along with similar groups in Europe are good and honorable.There were tens of millions of people who voted for Trump. Russiagate was a made up bullshit attempt to get those votes tossed in the trash and have Trump ousted. The media was flooded with Russia, Russia, Russia for years.
Then came Covid with the most arrogant antivaxxer shit attached to it. Children were lined up to get vaccinated or shamed for not doing so. Why? For them? Or because some in the deep state profited off of the vaccine? There was no explanation for why children needed to be vaccinated, just sheer arrogance.
Then Covid is flung off the front page and it is Ukraine all day every day. Zelensky is not a comedian playing a piano with his dick. He is now a modern day Jesus. Yellow and blue ribbons are everywhere. Money flows to Zelensky just like it did with the vaccines and Covid. Anyone questioning that money is deemed a nut job.
Then the facts dribble out. The whole notion that Russia is going into Paris and beyond fizzles out. The questions about what victory means are raised and about why there is so much concern about the borders in Ukraine and not our own.
And why is so much fucking money going to Ukraine? What the fuck does it have to do with us? And it really comes down to one question: Is Putin going to invade Europe and start World War 3? Putin answered that Russia invading Europe is fucking crazy. He said the fear mongering going on is to extract money from American and European taxpayers.
The real tell for me with Putin though was when he was asked about the Nordstream pipeline and who blew it up. Putin could have laid out the same factual basis Seymour Hersh did in his reporting, but he does not. He says look at who said they were going to blow up the pipeline and look at who is capable of doing it. Here is a guy who could easily justify a war with Europe as the blowing up of the pipeline was an act of war, and he does not go there.
And then you have Peter Zeihan saying the Polish flag has flown over Moscow before and may again, and Poland is now buying up tons and tons of tanks and actually predicting that Poland might get together with other nations and invade Russia. It is getting more and more obvious which side in this conflict wants war.
And then there was the response from the Democrats and the media, and it was the same as with Covid and Russiagate. Putin is a liar. He is a war criminal. Tucker Carlson asked softball questions (even before the interview was aired). Tucker Carlson should be banned from Europe. He is not a journalist. It is arrogance with no basis in fact. There is just shouting down or banning anyone who disagrees with the now obviously flawed narrative.
We have seen this movie before. In fact, we already know the ending. When we ask what did we get for our money spent in Ukraine, or on the Covid vaccines, or on the Russiagate probe, we will be shushed away as if that huge waste of time and money never happened and lectured and shamed on this new great danger we have to spend billions on no questions asked.
Elvis 2008
02-13-24, 00:19
For whatever reasons they want this crazy war to continue. The funny part is they all claim Trump / Putin will go to jail, but Pres Z. , will probably be the one that ends up in jail or killed. The sooner this happens the better off we will be. What a disaster and all the blame goes the Democratic's / the Euros.Yeah, Tucker Carlson was asking this too. WTF was the purpose of this? With the Covid vaccines and children, it was bureaucrats pushing the vaccine so the drug companies could make billions while putting millions in the pockets of the bureaucrats. If anyone does not see that now, they are a sap.
After the Putin interview, it was obvious Putin wants the war to end, and the neocons and defense contractors want it to keep going. I suspect some day we will learn of the same billions / millions split here as well, and in both cases, these parties do not give a fuck about all the bodies they leave behind.
Were you trying to install imbedded links? If so they didn't take, and may not be possible on this site.Tucker Carlson interview: Fact-checking Putin's 'nonsense'.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-68255302
Putin, in rambling interview, barely lets Tucker Carlson get a word in.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2024/02/08/tucker-carlson-putin-interview-released/#text=Carlson%20 said%20 he%20 felt%20 that,%E2%80%9 Cdenazification%E2%80%9 the%20 of%20 the%20 country.
Putin's Myths About Ukraine, Debunked.
https://time.com/6693504/vladimir-putin-history-myths-russia-ukraine-debunked/
Putin Used Tucker Carlson to Wipe the Kremlin's Floor.
https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-news/tucker-carlson-vladimir-putin-interview-ukraine-1234965053/
Here is another one, especially for Elvis, who seems to believe every word that comes from the mouth of Putin. No, Johnson didn't kill a peace deal with Russia. There wasn't and couldn't have been any peace deal with Russia in the spring of 2022 and besides Johnson didn't have the power or a sway to have killed a peace deal even if there was one.
Putin repeats nonsense claim Boris Johnson scuppered efforts to end Ukraine invasion
Vladimir Putin has repeated a claim that Boris Johnson scuppered negotiations for a peace settlement between Russia and Ukraine, which the former UK prime minister has previously labelled nonsense.
During a highly anticipated sit-down interview with former Fox News commentator Tucker Carlson, the Russian president said, via a translator, that a huge document had been prepared and approved by the head of the Ukrainian delegation, before Mr Johnson had stepped in and dissuaded Ukraines president Volodymyr Zelensky.
Putin said of Zelensky: He put his signature and then he himself said, We were ready to sign it and the war would have been over long ago. However, Prime Minister Johnson came to talk us out of it, and weve missed that chance.
In an interview with The Times in January, Mr Johnson strongly denied the claims, which have been previously aired by Moscow, describing them as total nonsense and Russian propaganda.
Mr Johnson asserted that, during a conversation with Mr Zelensky following the peace talks in Istanbul, he had expressed concerns about the nature of the potential agreement, but assured him of the UKs unwavering support for Ukraine.
He said: No peace proposals or peace agreement were possible in February or March 2022. Russia entered Ukraine solely for the sake of seizing territories, killing citizens and overthrowing a democratic government.https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/putin-boris-johnson-tucker-carlson-ukraine-war-b2493341.html
It's sad that a grown-up man would believe anything coming from Putin or Trump, the two most prolific liars of our time.
That's quite a weak standard there man. Yes they do, and in the US, the UK, Germany, and many other Euro countries.In Russia, as well. In spades. And plenty of them are fighting in Ukraine.
Russian Neo-Nazis Participate in 'Denazifying' Ukraine.
https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2022/05/23/russian-neo-nazis-participate-in-denazifying-ukraine-der-spiegel-a77762
Meet the Russian neo-Nazis fighting for Ukraine.
https://www.codastory.com/episodes/meet-the-russian-neo-nazis-fighting-for-ukraine/
Who Are The Neo-Nazis Fighting For Russia In Ukraine?
https://www.rferl.org/a/russian-neo-nazis-fighting-ukraine/31871760.html
Time to denazify Russia, I guess.
Elvis 2008
02-13-24, 22:44
Here is another one, especially for Elvis, who seems to believe every word that comes from the mouth of Putin. No, Johnson didn't kill a peace deal with Russia. There wasn't and couldn't have been any peace deal with Russia in the spring of 2022 and besides Johnson didn't have the power or a sway to have killed a peace deal even if there was one.Uh, let us quote your source.
From Boris Johnson: Mr Johnson asserted that, during a conversation with Mr Zelensky following the peace talks in Istanbul, he had "expressed concerns" about the nature of the potential agreement.
From Ukraine: The former prime minister's rebuttal came following statements made by David Arakhamiya, head of the Ukrainian delegation in talks with Russia. Mr Arakhamiya cited a previous visit by Mr Johnson to Kyiv as forming part of the decision not to negotiate with Moscow in 2022. Mr Johnson had allegedly said that Ukraine "shouldn't sign anything with them at all and let's just fight".
From Putin: Speaking of the proposed negotiations, Mr Putin continued: "We have never refused. And the fact that they obeyed the demand or persuasion of Mr Johnson, the former prime minister of Great Britain, seems ridiculous and very sad to me.
No, Johnson didn't kill a peace deal with Russia. There wasn't and couldn't have been any peace deal with Russia in the spring of 2022 and besides Johnson didn't have the power or a sway to have killed a peace deal even if there was one.Uh, everyone involved said Johnson did exactly that.
What is sad is you, a supposedly grown man, reads the headlines without getting into the facts.
The headline reads: Putin repeats 'nonsense' claim Boris Johnson scuppered efforts to end Ukraine invasion.
Did you even bother to read who made the claim that Putin was repeating? That would be the head of the Ukrainian delegation.
It's sad that a grown-up man would believe anything coming from Putin or Trump, the two most prolific liars of our time.Putin was verifying facts already known, dummy, but you hate Putin so much if Putin said the moon is not made of green cheese, you would say, "It sure is."
I have been down this rabbit hole with you before. When Victoria Neuland, a POS warmongering necon, picked out Ukraine's leader and was asked about the EU's concern about that leader, she said, "Fuck the EU. " You challenged me on the fact. You did not look it up. You just bought it when I said I was making up that fact versus it really happening.
You are the most factually challenged and gullible guy on here. For the millionth time, if you care so damned much about Ukraine, why have you not volunteered to fight?
Uh, let us quote your source.
From Boris Johnson: Mr Johnson asserted that, during a conversation with Mr Zelensky following the peace talks in Istanbul, he had "expressed concerns" about the nature of the potential agreement.
From Ukraine: The former prime minister's rebuttal came following statements made by David Arakhamiya, head of the Ukrainian delegation in talks with Russia. Mr Arakhamiya cited a previous visit by Mr Johnson to Kyiv as forming part of the decision not to negotiate with Moscow in 2022. Mr Johnson had allegedly said that Ukraine "shouldn't sign anything with them at all and let's just fight".
From Putin: Speaking of the proposed negotiations, Mr Putin continued: "We have never refused. And the fact that they obeyed the demand or persuasion of Mr Johnson, the former prime minister of Great Britain, seems ridiculous and very sad to me.
Uh, everyone involved said Johnson did exactly that.
What is sad is you, a supposedly grown man, reads the headlines without getting into the facts.Again, Boris Johnson didn't and couldn't have broken the so-called "peace talks" with Moscow. He didn't have the power, he didn't have the sway.
"Expressing concerns" is not the same as giving orders. Every sane person would've and probably did express concerns about negotiating with Putin. It's been proven times and again that Putin doesn't give a fuck about any agreements or treaties he signs.
Zelensky is his own man. The whole presumption that the Ukrainian government would've just taken an order from Boris Johnson (or anyone else for that matter) is beyond preposterous. It's crazy and idiotic.
Of course for authoritarians like yourself, countries don't matter. Only strongmen do. Well, the whole world predicted that Kyiv would fall in three days. Where are these "analysts" now? Ukraine has proved that they're perfectly capable of kicking Putin's ass, we just need to help them a little.
I scanned over your post to me and didn't see where you answered my question about the Russia-Ukraine Friendship Treaty of 1999, long before Trump and Covid were ever on the scene. Both parties signed on for this, and it confirmed existing borders. It was in place, both during the Russian incursions into The Donbas in 2008, as well as the time of the annexation of Crimea.
"One of the key obligations set by the Treaty was Article 2, which observed that the parties 'shall honour each other's territorial integrity and shall acknowledge the inviolability of the borders existing between them'. Article 3 further clarified that the parties 'shall structure their relations. On the principles of. Sovereign equality, territorial integrity, inviolability of borders'."
https://opiniojuris.org/2019/05/01/termination-of-the-treaty-of-friendship-between-ukraine-and-russia-too-little-too-late-%EF%BB%BF/
I'm sincere. Hint: Russia of course has a spin on it. Who in this world is ever wrong? Wink They typically have justifications for their actions. Go to any prison and try to find a guilty person. Germany surely did with the invasions of both Czechoslovakia and Poland at the start of WW 2. They were the good guys so they claimed. Because all such actions have justifications behind them, no matter how spurious. But you should be familiar with these issues if you want to make the arguments you are making. You may have to step away from the current website you are sourcing. You might even have to go directly to Russian sources.
One other question, if Putin is such a good guy, why do all his serious political opponents end up dead or in jail? It's usually the former.
P.S. I did watch parts of the interview. Putin at points was extremely disrespectful to Tucker, mocking him at one point, for the latter was rejected in his bid to join the CIA. Carlson looked bewildered and stunned at the moment, and was clearly way out of his element. He delivers Putes a softball interview and for his trouble gets impaled. Carlson also lied when he said he was the first US journalist to go there during the hostilities. Two Americans, Evan Gershkovich, WSJ and Alsu Kurmasheva, Radio Free Europe have recently been detained in Russia, and the former is still there. CNN also claims to have repeatedly begged Putin for an interview. Of course you don't find them reliable, and I don't either at times, but it's tough to doubt them on that point. They never shy away from inviting controversial figures onto the shows.
Again, Boris Johnson didn't and couldn't have broken the so-called "peace talks" with Moscow. He didn't have the power, he didn't have the sway.
"Expressing concerns" is not the same as giving orders. Every sane person would've and probably did express concerns about negotiating with Putin. It's been proven times and again that Putin doesn't give a fuck about any agreements or treaties he signs.
Zelensky is his own man. The whole presumption that the Ukrainian government would've just taken an order from Boris Johnson (or anyone else for that matter) is beyond preposterous. It's crazy and idiotic.
Of course for authoritarians like yourself, countries don't matter. Only strongmen do. Well, the whole world predicted that Kyiv would fall in three days. Where are these "analysts" now? Ukraine has proved that they're perfectly capable of kicking Putin's ass, we just need to help them a little.It's like saying Biden should have guaranteed that Ukraine would be perpetually excluded from NATO. He didn't remotely have that power, while any such exclusion violates the charter. Putin already knew what the response to his demand would be. The plan to rapidly take Kyiv and install a puppet was already in play.
In Russia, as well. In spades. And plenty of them are fighting in Ukraine.
Russian Neo-Nazis Participate in 'Denazifying' Ukraine.
https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2022/05/23/russian-neo-nazis-participate-in-denazifying-ukraine-der-spiegel-a77762
Meet the Russian neo-Nazis fighting for Ukraine.
https://www.codastory.com/episodes/meet-the-russian-neo-nazis-fighting-for-ukraine/
Who Are The Neo-Nazis Fighting For Russia In Ukraine?
https://www.rferl.org/a/russian-neo-nazis-fighting-ukraine/31871760.html
Time to denazify Russia, I guess.The whole idea of de-Nazifying a country with a Jewish president who won 73% of the vote is about ludicrous. Add the fact that Neo-Nazi soldiers only represent a relatively small number of a single battalion (Azov, 10 to 20%) and it's fully ludicrous.
Elvis 2008
02-15-24, 01:58
I scanned over your post to me and didn't see where you answered my question about the Russia-Ukraine Friendship Treaty of 1999, long before Trump and Covid were ever on the scene. Both parties signed on for this, and it confirmed existing borders. It was in place, both during the Russian incursions into The Donbas in 2008, as well as the time of the annexation of Crimea.
"One of the key obligations set by the Treaty was Article 2, which observed that the parties 'shall honour each other's territorial integrity and shall acknowledge the inviolability of the borders existing between them'. Article 3 further clarified that the parties 'shall structure their relations. On the principles of. Sovereign equality, territorial integrity, inviolability of borders'."
https://opiniojuris.org/2019/05/01/termination-of-the-treaty-of-friendship-between-ukraine-and-russia-too-little-too-late-%EF%BB%BF/Paulie, there were all the fact checkers who disputed Putin's historical take on Ukraine. To me, it is irrelevant to the issue at hand.
I'm sincere. Hint: Russia of course has a spin on it. Who in this world is ever wrong? Wink They typically have justifications for their actions. Go to any prison and try to find a guilty person. Germany surely did with the invasions of both Czechoslovakia and Poland at the start of WW 2. They were the good guys so they claimed. Because all such actions have justifications behind them, no matter how spurious. But you should be familiar with these issues if you want to make the arguments you are making. You may have to step away from the current website you are sourcing. You might even have to go directly to Russian sources.I completely agree with you. We have had disputes about this before. You have called this attack on Ukraine unprovoked, and I have told you that I saw with my own eyes Biden's military buildup and his history. I cannot recall any war Biden has not supported. But whether it was provoked or not, the issue at hand is the American taxpayer continuing to pay for this war.
One other question, if Putin is such a good guy, why do all his serious political opponents end up dead or in jail? It's usually the former.I never said Putin was a good guy, but he was the one telling the truth on Russiagate. And we are in the same situation as we were then. I am not buying the good guy bad guy scenario with the USA intelligence agencies given their history.
But when you have the government agency response which is attacking Tucker Carlson and saying do not listen to him or Putin IMO you have lost the argument. This is the same tactic that you are accusing Putin of, censorship. And Democrats do not get the high ground on political opponents and jailing them given what is happening with Trump and not happening with Biden.
Still, what is the end game? Why do we care more about Ukraine's borders than our own? I look at weapons manufacturers just like vaccine manufacturers with Covid and everything is being done in their interests and IMO not the American public's. No one has made a compelling case as to why we care so much about Ukraine and are willing to send them so much money.
P.S. I did watch parts of the interview. Putin at points was extremely disrespectful to Tucker, mocking him at one point, for the latter was rejected in his bid to join the CIA. Carlson looked bewildered and stunned at the moment, and was clearly way out of his element.Here we go again. Here is an interview with Tucker right after he spoke to Putin: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qzlt1VVBcg8.
Look at the boxes on the side and how many views there were of the interview in India? Look at how many people are in the audience where he is speaking. Attacking Carlson and not his opinions and ideas means you have lost.
And Xpartan just lost. Zelensky is his own man. Boris Johnson did not have the power to scuttle the negotiations. Issuing declarations with nothing to back them up means you lose. That is why there is such a fight on this issue. It is the same tactics we saw with Covid and Russiagate. How do you know Putin is going to invade the rest of Europe? Because we say so, and you are an idiot if you do not go along with us means you just lost.
And guys like Xpartan keep attacking me as if I am the one who holds the key. Let us leave American politics. Putin says he wants negotiated peace, and the official response is Tucker Carlson is a hack and Putin is lying. Do you think that works with the thinking Indian people who watched this interview? Because I sure do not. We look like a bunch of foolish war mongers.
The whole idea of de-Nazifying a country with a Jewish president who won 73% of the vote is about ludicrous. Add the fact that Neo-Nazi soldiers only represent a relatively small number of a single battalion (Azov, 10 to 20%) and it's fully ludicrous.Even Azov can't be seen as Neo-Nazis today after the brigade purged the Nazi sympathizers in 2016-2017. What personal views Azov soldiers are harboring nowadays, who knows, but that's true about pretty much anybody.
But Putin claims are awfully rich considering that FSB tried to control Azov back in a day and at one point managed to install an FSB agent as Azov's leader. The Russian influence didn't take, though, and Azov became the most successful military regimen in the Ukrainian army.
https://news.yahoo.com/azov-regiment-called-neo-nazi-142500366.html
Putin says he wants negotiated peace...You keep smoothing over the most important factors:
1) If Putin wants peace, he can withdraw from Ukraine at any time and there will be immediate peace.
2) Putin does not uphold agreements, and has reneged each time.
Can you please reformulate your position and take that into account?
Elvis 2008
02-16-24, 05:16
2) Putin does not uphold agreements, and has reneged each time.
Can you please reformulate your position and take that into account?Yeah, the intelligence agencies lied their asses off about Russiagate, and Putin was telling the truth, so your whole narrative of Putin as dishonest and we are honest blows up in your face.
1) If Putin wants peace, he can withdraw from Ukraine at any time and there will be immediate peace.That is not going to happen. What do you propose besides peace with Putin? 400,000 dead Ukrainians is not enough for you? You know the average soldier in Ukraine is pushing 45 years old? That people in Ukraine are opposing and protesting the drafting of men to fight in this war? That the wealthy in Ukraine left town before the war started? That guys on here have seen those in the Ukrainian government living it up at the Globe Club in Switzerland and Zelensky is buying up properties in Europe? That the Ukrainian economy has been going down at a rate of 8% a year?
This war was supposed to hurt Russia. Well, Russia is now the biggest economy in Europe overtaking Germany. Germany has gotten killed economically because they are paying through the nose for expensive nonRussian natural gas, and other nations have had to bear the burden of Ukrainian refugees.
In the mean time, Tucker Carlson shot this video of the Russian subway system and compared it to those in the West. https://twitter.com/i/status/1757901280830505037.
You Democrats wanted to inflict on Russia and Putin. Any evidence that what you are doing worked? Because it sure as hell does not look like it to me.
In a media briefing ahead of the meeting, French diplomatic sources said VIGINUM, the French watchdog that monitors foreign digital interference, had identified some 193 websites that aimed to broadly spread information from pro-Russian sources as well as Russian news outlets and institutions.https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/european-powers-warn-spike-russian-propaganda-before-eu-elections-2024-02-12/
But at least people who disseminate Russian fake news are paid pretty well. Yet, they rely on an army of useful idiots who're more than willing to spread and amplify all kinds of Kremlin-produced lies gratis. Tucker Carlson will have probably monetized his Putin's "interview" to the tune of tens of millions of dollars, but who if not his followers are helping him to do all the heavy lifting. Just look at these 'postulates' from one of his disciples, LOL.
- The intelligence agencies lied their asses off about Russiagate, and Putin was telling the truth.
- 400,000 dead Ukrainians.
- Zelensky is buying up properties in Europe.
- Those in the Ukrainian government living it up at the Globe Club in Switzerland.
- The Ukrainian economy has been going down at a rate of 8% a year.
- Russia is now the biggest economy in Europe overtaking Germany.
- Germany has gotten killed economically.
- Moscow metro system is nice.If you wonder whether ANY of Elvis' musings here are truthful, the answer is yes. Yes, I admit it!
Moscow metro is pretty nice and efficient.
Probably not much nicer or more efficient than Montreal, Berlin, London, Paris, Tokyo, Washington, DC, and -- deep breath -- even Rio or SP, but it's really pretty good. Especially that no one today remembers that it was built on the bones of thousands of workers including GULAG prisoners sacrificed by Stalin so he could faster demonstrate his masterpiece to the world.
Everything else is a lie.
And I mean everything.
Of course, Elvis could prove me wrong by providing legitimate sources to back up his j'accuse's. But he won't 'cause he has none.
The end.
In the mean time, Tucker Carlson shot this video of the Russian subway system and compared it to those in the West. https://twitter.com/i/status/1757901280830505037.
Kind of hard to listen to TC. Moscow is not Russia.
DramaFree11
02-17-24, 02:49
Yeah, the intelligence agencies lied their asses off about Russiagate, and Putin was telling the truth, so your whole narrative of Putin as dishonest and we are honest blows up in your face.
That is not going to happen. What do you propose besides peace with Putin? 400,000 dead Ukrainians is not enough for you? You know the average soldier in Ukraine is pushing 45 years old? That people in Ukraine are opposing and protesting the drafting of men to fight in this war? That the wealthy in Ukraine left town before the war started? That guys on here have seen those in the Ukrainian government living it up at the Globe Club in Switzerland and Zelensky is buying up properties in Europe? That the Ukrainian economy has been going down at a rate of 8% a year?
This war was supposed to hurt Russia. Well, Russia is now the biggest economy in Europe overtaking Germany. Germany has gotten killed economically because they are paying through the nose for expensive nonRussian natural gas, and other nations have had to bear the burden of Ukrainian refugees..Great post, but I am afraid the number of dead Ukraine soldiers is pushing 500,000 or more, add in the the critically wounded you are looking at 1.2-1.5 million. Just horrible.
Russia is way stronger than before the war, including there economy. The Euro's and West economies are in shambles. Great job, Democrats.
LOL I come back 2 years later to this forum and the drama continues.
I said Russia will prevail and Ukraine will lose.
If you have any brains and common sense, you would know this to be true.
The usual suspects (the pro Ukraine nerds haha) claimed Ukraine would push Russia out by end of 2022 lmao.
And that the Russian economy would collapse.
Well well, none of that happened, did it nerds, you nerds know who you are.
The same dummies that kept saying Ukraine will win.
The reality is Russia will never lose any of the land it has taken control of.
For following reasons.
1. Russia is far more powerful.
2, the areas were formerly in history, Russian lands, so Russia would probably fight to nuclear war for its historic lands.
3, and DUH its full of majority of Russians, so DUH nerds, you have a populace friendly to the Russian army and government.
Its very difficult controlling lands when the populace hates you.
That's why Russia has no interest in the Baltics and Poland for example.
It doesn't strengthen them at all.
The reality is.
The Russian economy is stronger now, sorry nerds its true.
The Ukraine economy is destroyed, the world now pays its bills, total welfare state now.
All the young men have been slaughtered because of some fat heads that didn't want to negotiate (the nerds will have a heart attack on this one).
The world will quit funding this war probably as soon as 2025.
Ukraine will be a ghost town until a real peace deal is done, sorry no capital will come to Ukraine until a real solid peace deal is signed by all sides.
If the west persists in this slaughter, there will be no men left under age of 40 left in Ukraine in next 2 years, ruined for a generation.
Who you going to rebuild the country with? 60 yr old fogeys?
Every pretty girl over 18 will leave Ukraine as no young men to marry.
The end of mongering forever, they will flood the country with immigrants on the west side of Ukraine for cheap labour and young men.
This country will never be the same as the Ukraine I enjoyed from 2010 to 2017.
Russia is way stronger than before the war, including there economy.Have you tried buying eggs there?
Yeah, the intelligence agencies lied their asses off about Russiagate, and Putin was telling the truth, so your whole narrative of Putin as dishonest and we are honest blows up in your face.Putin and his cronies explicitly said they would not invade Ukraine only days before they did. Are you aware that Russian propaganda does not work outside of Russia?
That is not going to happen.Why not. Putin is commander in chief, he can withdraw any time he chooses.
Enter The V
02-17-24, 13:30
Have you tried buying eggs there?Yes tucker Carlson did and it was good he says.
Elvis 2008
02-17-24, 17:15
https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/european-powers-warn-spike-russian-propaganda-before-eu-elections-2024-02-12/
If you wonder whether ANY of Elvis' musings here are truthful, the answer is yes. Yes, I admit it!
Everything else is a lie.
And I mean everything.
Of course, Elvis could prove me wrong by providing legitimate sources to back up his j'accuse's. But he won't 'cause he has none.
The end.The end? What the fuck is your plan? Keep sending billions to Ukraine so millions can somehow be funneled back to Democrats and just ignore all the bodies piling up? Oh, yeah, you all care so much about Ukraine.
Guess the source on this, dummy:
After Russia invaded Ukraine in 2022, Western nations imposed the most extensive sanctions and trade restrictions in history on Moscow. Today, Russia appears to be doing OK.
Its economy is growing steadily. Russia can't buy much from the West but has found new providers for drones, surveillance gear, computer chips and other gear. Its oil and gas sales are still strong, despite attempts to stop them. Russian officials say they have plenty of money to pay for their war.
Moscow's continued strength is a humbling result for the USA And its allies. These nations make up more than half of the global economy, and they tried to weaponize their influence over trade and finance to weaken Russia. They hoped to make President Vladimir Putin a pariah and maybe even stop the war. Today, I'll explain why those efforts have fallen short and whether they can be made to work again.
The measures against Russia go far beyond traditional sanctions, which historically have targeted banks and elites. Those rules limit how much tech Russia can import, and they direct shipping companies and insurers to cap the price of Russia's oil at $60 per barrel well below market rate.
He sanctions took a toll. They raised the cost of many items for Russian civilians and forced the military to buy shoddier missiles and semiconductors. For Russian energy companies like Gazprom and Rosneft, exports to the West have plunged. But the Russian economy has proved surprisingly adaptable, thanks partly to its relationship with China.
It may seem surprising that Russia could so quickly replace so much of its trade with the USA, Japan and the E. You. But the rest of the global economy especially China's is large enough that the shift didn't take long. China already makes much of what Russia needs and can buy much of what it sells. Trade between China and Russia hit a record high last year as Russians turned to Chinese cars, electronics and weapons components. "China has to a large extent blunted the pain," said Eswar Prasad, a trade economist at Cornell University.
Another change has been the rise of a network of shipping companies, insurers and oil traders that does not answer to Western rules. This network, based in countries like China, India and the United Arab Emirates, has expanded since the war began to provide new channels for Russian oil. Thanks to this shadow fleet, Russia can get around the Western price cap on its oil by using shipping companies that don't comply with it. And Russians are still getting TVs, chips and cellphones through traders in Central Asia and the Middle East who buy them from the West and sell them at a markup.
The West chose not to put in place some tough measures, such as a full oil embargo, for fear they could disrupt the global economy. Unlike some nations the USA Has penalized before think of Cuba, Iran and Venezuela Russia is better integrated into world trade. It exports commodities other countries need, such as steel and fertilizer. And it still provides much of Europe's energy. Pain aimed at Russia would be felt well beyond its borders.
Finally, the newest sanctions the ones that try to constrain Russia's access to technology and its oil sales have not been as effective. The USA Wields much less influence over these sectors than it does over the banking sector, which is tethered to the dollar. The new measures, imposed in 2022, made it harder and more expensive for Russia to do business abroad. But they haven't wounded its economy enough to make most Russians question the war. "The mood in Russia is, the whole world is against us, but we are managing quite well," said Maria Snegovaya, a senior fellow at the Center for Strategic and International Studies.
USA Officials acknowledge all this. Still, they say they imposed costs that other nations will have to weigh before violating international law. Officials call that a win, even if the measures didn't send Russia into a recession or end the war.
Putin sees it differently. "The instruments and the policies of the United States are ineffective," Putin bragged during his interview last week with Tucker Carlson, according to a Russian government translator.
He is surely not the only leader to notice the USA Failure to cripple Russia. When China wants to menace Taiwan or India wants to assassinate perceived enemies on foreign soil, they will know that Washington couldn't turn Russia into a pariah when it broke the rules. In that way, sanctions in Russia have exposed the limits of USA Power.
QAnon? Epoch Times? Zero Hedge? He he.
Elvis 2008
02-17-24, 17:17
Why not. Putin is commander in chief, he can withdraw any time he chooses.Sure, why not? And for fairness sake, Biden can give California back to Mexico and the Midwest back to native Americans.
Elvis 2008
02-17-24, 19:23
Great post, but I am afraid the number of dead Ukraine soldiers is pushing 500,000 or more, add in the the critically wounded you are looking at 1.2-1.5 million. Just horrible.
Russia is way stronger than before the war, including there economy. The Euro's and West economies are in shambles. Great job, Democrats.And like six million people have left the country. You do not return from this. The real reason is why. With Ukrainegate, we were able to look into who was actually really running Ukraine, and it turns out it really was a bunch of Soros backed NGOs. Yeah, nongovernment organizations is practically code for saying they are government backed. What we are seeing is a lot of government capture. The "charitable" Gates foundation runs the World Health Organization or WHO. The CDC and FDA are being run by drug companies.
I went back and looked at the whole biolabs in Ukraine thing here: https://greenwald.substack.com/p/victoria-nuland-ukraine-has-biological.
The Russian Foreign Ministry asserted that "Russia obtained documents proving that Ukrainian biological laboratories located near Russian borders worked on development of components of biological weapons. ".
Basically, Mario Rubio, a Republican, asked about bioweapons in Ukraine, and he expected "fuck the EU" Victoria Nuland to say there were not any. Instead she said that the USA was funding biolabs in Ukraine but they were research facilities.
You know one of the funny things about bureaucrats in our government is how little respect they have for foreign lives. It took the Australian press to uncover a video clip where Fauci said you do not put biological research facilities in Hoboken, NJ. You put them in China. That whole gain of function denial is semantics. That is exactly what he was talking about.
I guess I wonder why the Democrats and intelligence agencies who control them care so much about Ukraine. They do not give a fuck about the Ukrainians at all. That was a joke. And Zelensky got rid of Democracy there so the "fight for Democracy line" is done. The Russians taking over Europe and Putin as Hitler is as off now as it ever has was. Every time the military industrial conflict wants war they go back to the domino theory.
Obama said if Russia invaded Ukraine we would not help Ukraine as we had no vital interests there. Well, what changed? It makes you wonder right. Tucker Carlson wondered too. Well, I think this may be the one country on earth that is so corrupt that USA intelligence agencies and bureaucrats can do whatever they want.
When Biden got that AG fired, I think his name was Shokin who was looking into Burisma, he showed all of Ukraine who was running things and it was not Ukrainian politicians. That country has been run by Democrats and American bureaucrats and NGOs, and that probably is why Putin had to invade. I do not buy at all the blanket denials on biological, chemical, and nuclear weapons. Not at all.
Are you aware that Russian propaganda does not work outside of Russia?Oh man, I wish it were true. Unfortunately, there are thousands if not millions of deranged trumpists, who are incredibly susceptible to Russian propaganda. Just look at our pal Elvis here. The term 'useful idiots' was coined by then Soviet KGB especially for ideological junkies like him.
Sure, why not? And for fairness sake, Biden can give California back to Mexico and the Midwest back to native Americans.Can you explain what you mean by fairness?
The point you have repeatedly chosen to ignore, is that Putin can leave Ukraine at any time he wishes, but does not. If he did that, the war would immediately end and talks could take place for some kind of settlement.
The end? What the fuck is your plan? That's it? I present you with a list of your lies and you reply with an article that lists western countermeasures against the aggression?
Well, that's an admission Elvis. No better way to say yes I lied, but here is an article you might find useful.
Thank you, thank you very much!
Oh man, I wish it were true. Unfortunately, there are thousands if not millions of deranged trumpists, who are incredibly susceptible to Russian propaganda. Just look at our pal Elvis here. The term 'useful idiots' was coined by then Soviet KGB especially for ideological junkies like him.Russian propaganda is plenty effective in the Western World. And that's one reason why we see next to no source citations from their defenders here, as we'd be led to fringe right websites, blogs, YouTubes, social media posts, or straight to Russian media itself. But it's truly the Wild Wild West in journalism, absent any responsible editorial policy that was common in the last century. People who boast that they "stopped listening to mainstream media" are typically drinking from a cistern of far right lies among varieties of unsubstantiated conspriacy theories. Where it all leads no one knows, but Fascism hasn't been so popular since the 1930's and leading up the WW II, though the bizarre underpinnings of today are unprecedented.
Enter The V
02-19-24, 14:00
Russian propaganda is plenty effective in the Western World. And that's one reason why we see next to no source citations from their defenders here, as we'd be led to fringe right websites, blogs, YouTubes, social media posts, or straight to Russian media itself. But it's truly the Wild Wild West in journalism, absent any responsible editorial policy that was common in the last century. People who boast that they "stopped listening to mainstream media" are typically drinking from a cistern of far right lies among varieties of unsubstantiated conspriacy theories. Where it all leads no one knows, but Fascism hasn't been so popular since the 1930's and leading up the WW II, though the bizarre underpinnings of today are unprecedented.Maybe if the USA weren't such a shithole for the past 20 years people wouldn't be listening to Russian propaganda.
Elvis 2008
02-19-24, 22:32
Maybe if the USA weren't such a shithole for the past 20 years people wouldn't be listening to Russian propaganda.These are the same people who totally were duped by American propaganda on Russiagate and Covid. Now they are claiming to be so, so smart on the Ukraine War and Russian propaganda. We now have been shown intelligence documents saying the Russians were perfectly comfortable with Hiliary Clinton and not slobbering all over Trump as we were led to believe. Still these same people claiming to be so smart with sniffing out propaganda STILL believe Russiagate was true.
Maybe if the USA weren't such a shithole for the past 20 years people wouldn't be listening to Russian propaganda.It seems that your main hobby here is bitching about the US in different threads. If America is not to your liking get out and live happily ever after. What's stopping you?
People are way too prone to get into a virtual political dick comparison contest here man. Can we get back to the actually important topic which is cheap Ukrainian pussy?
I went in 2017. Back then you could have some hot and young semi pros (really gorgeous students) for 1500-2000 for an hour but you had to search around quite a bit, it was very very inconvenient for a short trip.
Escort sites and full on hookers in some of the bigger clubs were more expensive and not as yummy.
How is the landscape in 2024?
Yes war and all but idgaf, I want cheap slavic pussy and coming from Germany (yes we have tons here but the quality is atrocious and its 50 euro for 15 min with no kissing, DATY, BBBJ, etc.) With extras and enough time you end up paying 200 euros nowadays for a hot girl and even then they tend to rush you alot and service is just not great.
So I am looking to Eastern Europe for a short 4-5 day trip before I do the big leap in May to Central / South America.
So to get back to original question. Still plenty of pussy in the 2000 UAH price range? And how best to find them?
So I am looking to Eastern Europe for a short 4-5 day trip before I do the big leap in May to Central / South America.
So to get back to original question. Still plenty of pussy in the 2000 UAH price range? And how best to find them?You need to look on Keksik, but I would say that the quality starts at 3000 UAH. There are plenty around, and you should be able to arrange many meets during a 4 day trip.
You need to look on Keksik, but I would say that the quality starts at 3000 UAH. There are plenty around, and you should be able to arrange many meets during a 4 day trip.Cheers for the tip. I did not know Keksik yet, used relax Kiev previously and alot of Mamba. Seems prices have gone up quite abit. There are some Telegram groups were girls advertise and the starting rate is 3000. Thats like the absolutely cheapest. Going aaaaalllll the way to 10 k UAH.
Now I am not sure what the logic is behind this pricing (price overcorrection as the war continues or is it because there is simply less pussy that remained in Ukraine and most other working girls got sponsored up and "saved from the war" by western europeans?
Now 3-4 k I would accept for 1 hour full service, anything beyond that and expenses including flight as well as hotel are no longer worth it as that already almost hits Western EU prices.
For reference in Germany one can still get some halfway decent girls for 150€ per hour (although alot of girls seem to be increasing to 200 nowadays as well) but for 6-7 k UAH why the fuck would I fly to Kiev then?
FilthyBeaver
03-27-24, 04:26
9-10 k for a girl from Harem, Dolls or Princess before Tues. War sounds about right for "all night" which is really 8 hours. I never bothered to ask for the prices for lesser amounts of time because I only took girls I have chemistry and good convo with but they are available you just need to ask. I think the min is 2 or 3 hrs.
You need to look on Keksik, but I would say that the quality starts at 3000 UAH. There are plenty around, and you should be able to arrange many meets during a 4 day trip.
For reference in Germany one can still get some halfway decent girls for 150 per hour (although alot of girls seem to be increasing to 200 nowadays as well) but for 6-7 k UAH why the fuck would I fly to Kiev then?I'd go even further and wonder why at all fly to a country at war for pussy. Aren't Slavic girls everywhere nowadays including Germany (with an added bonus of zero air raid sirens at night)?
DramaFree11
03-27-24, 18:05
I'd go even further and wonder why at all fly to a country at war for pussy. Aren't Slavic girls everywhere nowadays including Germany (with an added bonus of zero air raid sirens at night)?Yep, makes zero sense. I have never understood the delusion and fantasy world, that the Internet has created about Ukraine. It's been bad for over 10 years now. It was bad before the war, but the Internet portrays a different world.
The hot girls have been gone for years.
FilthyBeaver
03-27-24, 21:08
But buying from the source / where they're made is really appealing. I swear there's a supermodel on every corner in Kyiv. Too bad the putz to the east is denying us our God given right to seek it out.
I'd go even further and wonder why at all fly to a country at war for pussy. Aren't Slavic girls everywhere nowadays including Germany (with an added bonus of zero air raid sirens at night)?
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