View Full Version : Stupid Shit in Kyiv
Pages :
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
[
12]
13
14
15
16
17
18
Ukraine has to hold presidential elections and free elections to a new Rada following a suspension of the martial law. It has to agree to the RF's terms to start the true negotiations as opposed to the spring of 2022 farce. The agreement should be verifiable, enforceable and should not be humiliating as the Treaty of Versailles. The RF is not interested in freezing the conflict.
At the moment, as the locals say, there are three types of Ukrainians (said using a derogatory word):
Those living in the left bank (lower bank of Dnieper, to the east) who would agree to surrender Donbass.
Those living in Kiev, who would agree to surrender the left bank.
And those living in the Western Ukraine, who would agree to surrender everything east of the river Zbruch (along the Polish. Russian border of 1921).
However, the Western Ukraine is Russian historic land as well up to the WWI.It's time to take a well-deserved vacation in one of your historic lands already. I hear Vovchansk is beautiful this time of year.
Reiner Otto
06-30-24, 07:27
However, the Western Ukraine is Russian historic land as well up to the WWI.You should better say, Western Ukraine historically is Polish and Austrian / German land. Better, to stay with the simple facts.
BTW, high time for NATO and Germany to grab Kaliningrad, a ka Koenigsberg, historically very German, back from Russia.
You can't make deals with a nation of liars.Yeah, let's keep the carnage going. Until the last Ukrainian, eh keyboard warrior?
They ain't sent to sure death in meat assaults.How many Ukrainians have died?
Yeah, let's keep the carnage going. Until the last Ukrainian, eh keyboard warrior?Not sure what you mean by keyboard warrior. You are on a mongering site trying your hardest to push Russian propaganda in the Ukraine forums. I think some introspection is needed.
Yeah, let's keep the carnage going. Until the last Ukrainian, eh keyboard warrior?He only cares about the pussy. Dead dick means nothing.
Not sure what you mean by keyboard warrior. You are on a mongering site trying your hardest to push Russian propaganda in the Ukraine forums. I think some introspection is needed.As I have said many times, I do not have a horse in this race. I have my view on this whole war and conflict. I just know very well how this all started, when this all started and most of all WHY it started.
How many Ukrainians have died?I noticed a disturbing trend. You're now limiting your participation in this forum to posting one-sentence questions. Late Prigozhin would've hit you with a hammer for your lack of enthusiasm.
Reiner Otto
07-01-24, 07:12
I just know very well how this all started, when this all started and most of all WHY it started.Yep. Putler wanted land, and industry, and minerals. Like Adolf. Although, Putler had to be smarter. In the very beginning, he had to trick the UA to dismantle its atomic weapons, by giving guarantees he never wanted to keep. Concerning the Red Lines, Putler was talking about so often, using as alibi for his imperialistic aggression: Any Red Lines of NATO for Russia, to put nuclear missiles into Kaliningrad? Missiles, capable to reach Berlin or Warsaw or Stockholm in very few minutes?
I noticed a disturbing trend. You're now limiting your participation in this forum to posting one-sentence questions. Late Prigozhin would've hit you with a hammer for your lack of enthusiasm.Well, you seem to be avoiding answering it so I have to keep asking. Or do you not care how many Ukrainians are dying to keep track?
Yep. Putler wanted land, and industry, and minerals. Like Adolf. Although, Putler had to be smarter. In the very beginning, he had to trick the UA to dismantle its atomic weapons, by giving guarantees he never wanted to keep. Concerning the Red Lines, Putler was talking about so often, using as alibi for his imperialistic aggression: Any Red Lines of NATO for Russia, to put nuclear missiles into Kaliningrad? Missiles, capable to reach Berlin or Warsaw or Stockholm in very few minutes?Those atomic weapons did not belong to Ukraine, they belonged to Russia. Russia had the codes. Ukraine just returned them to the rightful owner, you don't even know that.
Reiner Otto
07-01-24, 20:55
Those atomic weapons did not belong to Ukraine, they belonged to Russia. Russia had the codes. Ukraine just returned them to the rightful owner, you don't even know that.The atomic weapons belonged to UA, because they were kept on their territory from the times of the USSR. Russia had the activation codes, yes. But that is / was not a mayor technical problem, in case of having good engineers, to remove the warheads from the SS18's, for example, and to remove the fission material for a new bomb. And later on, all the warheads were the bargain for the Budapest Memorandum, which was broken by Putler. Proof, that negotations and any agreements with him are not even worth intensively used toilet paper. Obviously, you are not good at facts.
Seems like Blackrock and others are calling time on Zelensky's scam. Time to pay back his Himalayan loans. He can always go back to his day job as a cross dressing male stripper.
Does it make sense to challenge a cannibal on fact finding with respect to keto diet? No, absolutely not.
As if an omen, all three major traitors of 1991 agreement with an exception of one croaked in 2022. As a witness at zero distance to 1987 agreement I can only repeat what is inconvenient to say officially, that two thieves and traitors contributed to the territorial disintegration of the country: a fingerless alcoholic Yeltsin and a marked mediocre tractor operator Gorbachev. Ukraine was created as an unallied country in 1991 or nine years before the first term of the current Russian president.
Nowadays, Ukraine socially is called country 404 - a non-existing mistake: financially, militarily and morally bankrupt.
Everything that Ukraine pledges today as a guarantee to its debts to foreign nations or corporations will be nationalized and returned to its owner. The people.
Well, you seem to be avoiding answering it so I have to keep asking. Or do you not care how many Ukrainians are dying to keep track?Every Ukrainian life is priceless but there will be infinitely more Ukrainian deaths if they give a snake named Putin a chance to rest, recharge, regroup and relaunch. Like I've said before, they don't have a choice.
Those atomic weapons did not belong to Ukraine, they belonged to Russia. Russia had the codes. Ukraine just returned them to the rightful owner, you don't even know that.They belonged to the Soviet Union, not Russia. Russia was just one of 15 nuke owners, you dummy.
The atomic weapons belonged to UA, because they were kept on their territory from the times of the USSR. Russia had the activation codes, yes. But that is / was not a mayor technical problem, in case of having good engineers, to remove the warheads from the SS18's, for example, and to remove the fission material for a new bomb. And later on, all the warheads were the bargain for the Budapest Memorandum, which was broken by Putler. Proof, that negotations and any agreements with him are not even worth intensively used toilet paper. Obviously, you are not good at facts.They belonged to the Soviet Union and were legally the property of its successor state Russia. That's why Ukraine, Belarus and Kazakhstan returned them to Russia. I don't know why that is so difficult to understand.
Every Ukrainian life is priceless but there will be infinitely more Ukrainian deaths if they give a snake named Putin a chance to rest, recharge, regroup and relaunch. Like I've said before, they don't have a choice.
So you cannot answer. LOL.
They belonged to the Soviet Union and were legally the property of its successor state Russia. That's why Ukraine, Belarus and Kazakhstan returned them to Russia. I don't know why that is so difficult to understand.There's no reason to pull that out of your arse, the situation around the UA nukes is very well documented. No reason to make stuff up to get a bonus from the FSB.
"After the breakup of the Soviet Union in 1991, Ukraine inherited a significant portion of the Soviet Union's nuclear arsenal. At the time, Ukraine possessed the third-largest stockpile of nuclear weapons in the world, including intercontinental ballistic missiles (ICBMs) and strategic bombers.
However, these nuclear weapons were not under Ukrainian control in the operational sense. The launch codes and technical control remained with the Russian Federation. The Ukrainian government did not have full operational control over the nuclear arsenal on its territory.
In 1994, Ukraine agreed to relinquish its nuclear weapons and joined the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons (NPT) as a non-nuclear-weapon state. This decision was part of the Budapest Memorandum, in which Ukraine agreed to transfer its nuclear warheads to Russia for dismantling in exchange for security assurances from the United States, the United Kingdom, and Russia. By 1996, Ukraine had successfully transferred all its nuclear weapons to Russia. ".
Reiner Otto
07-02-24, 15:22
They belonged to the Soviet Union and were legally the property of its successor state Russia. That's why Ukraine, Belarus and Kazakhstan returned them to Russia. I don't know why that is so difficult to understand.You can not stop to distribute misinformation. Is this your job, payed for by putler? Or did you just get it from rtdotcom?
Excerpt:
The Massandra Accords set the stage for the ultimately successful trilateral talks. As the United States mediated between Russia and Ukraine, the three countries signed the Trilateral Statement on January 14,1994. Ukraine committed to full disarmament, including strategic weapons, in exchange for economic support and security assurances from the United States and Russia. Ukraine agreed to transfer its nuclear warheads to Russia and accepted USA Assistance in dismantling missiles, bombers, and nuclear infrastructure. Ukraine's warheads would be dismantled in Russia, and Ukraine would receive compensation for the commercial value of the highly enriched uranium. Ukraine ratified START on February 3, 1994, repealing its earlier preconditions, but it would not accede to the NPT without further security assurances. .
Again, security assurances also from Russia here. One more proof of Putlers peeing on international agreements.
Ukraine agreed to transfere its nuclear warheads.
In case, you can still learn, and you are allowed to, just get the full story here:
https://www.armscontrol.org/factsheets/Ukraine-Nuclear-Weapons#text=By%201996%2 C%20 Ukraine%20 had%20 returned, nuclear%20 Nonproliferation%20 Treaty%20 (NPT).
However, these nuclear weapons were not under Ukrainian control in the operational sense. The launch codes and technical control remained with the Russian Federation. The Ukrainian government did not have full operational control over the nuclear arsenal on its territory.Thank you.
The nuclear weapons were not under Ukrainian control because they didn't belong to Ukraine and were just stationed there. The nuclear codes were with Russia because they belonged to Russia.
Just like America has nukes in Turkey. They don't belong to Turkey, they belong to the you. S, they have the nuclear codes. Similar to the nukes that were stationed in Kazakhstan and Belarus. They belonged to Russia and were returned to Russia by those 2 countries.
Russia has or is going to place nukes in Belarus. They will be Russian nukes that will just be stationed in Belarus. Amazing that is hard to understand for some here.
They belonged to the Soviet Union and were legally the property of its successor state Russia. That's why Ukraine, Belarus and Kazakhstan returned them to Russia. I don't know why that is so difficult to understand.They were not legally "the property of its successor state Russia. " Ukraine returned the nukes to Russia due to the intense US and Nato pressure -- mostly because Nato was and still is willing to sell their firstborn to limit the number of nuclear states. Furthermore, the nukes were returned only under the explicit Russian assurance of Ukraine's territorial integrity.
Gee, what a bargain!
Thank you.
The nuclear weapons were not under Ukrainian control because they didn't belong to Ukraine and were just stationed there. The nuclear codes were with Russia because they belonged to Russia.
Just like America has nukes in Turkey. They don't belong to Turkey, they belong to the you. S, they have the nuclear codes. Similar to the nukes that were stationed in Kazakhstan and Belarus. They belonged to Russia and were returned to Russia by those 2 countries.
Russia has or is going to place nukes in Belarus. They will be Russian nukes that will just be stationed in Belarus. Amazing that is hard to understand for some here.The US and Turkey are two different countries. Russia and Belarus today are also different countries (on paper at least). In the Soviet times, however, Russia and Ukraine weren't different countries. They were two republics that belonged to one country, the USSR. Again: The Russian Soviet Federal Socialist Republic did NOT controlled the nuclear codes in the Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic. It was the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics that controlled the codes everywhere inside the state.
Then the USSR went Kaput. All former Soviet republics became independent states.
The 1991 treaty between Russia, Ukraine and Belarus in Belovezhskaya Pushcha didn't discuss the ownership of Ukraine's nukes. In 1994, Ukrainian President Kravchuk was vehemently against transferring nuclear weapons to Russia. Interestingly, it was Bill Clinton who threatened and pushed him into submission. Hope he's proud of himself today.
But Clinton never tried to argue that Russia was somehow a legal nukes owner. Hell, Russia itself didn't try to claim it was a legal owner at the time. So again, who am I to tell you not to be an idiot? Go for it.
Not sure what you mean by keyboard warrior. You are on a mongering site trying your hardest to push Russian propaganda in the Ukraine forums. I think some introspection is needed.I fully agree. All those war promoters shall be kicked out from the forum. Most likely Trump aficionados.
Where is the mod to stop that bullshit?
Reiner Otto
07-03-24, 10:29
Ukraine agreed to transfer its nuclear warheads to Russia and accepted USA Assistance in dismantling missiles, bombers, and nuclear infrastructure. Ukraine's warheads would be dismantled in Russia, .
UAs warheads explicitly mentioned. Why such a deal, when the warheads were Russian, anyway?
You can not understand, obviously. Why do you just repeat your wrong claim?
From another serious source: A more attainable option is to modify warheads, kept in storage sites and designated for ballistic and cruise missiles, for use as gravity bombs. Potentially, the warheads could be mounted on Tu-160 and Tu-95 MC 16 heavy bombers; the pilots of these bombers took an allegiance to the Ukrainian people as early as the spring of 1992.
Ref. To POST-SOVIET RUSSIA AND UKRAINE:
WHO CAN PUSH THE BUTTON?
Dr. Alexander A. Pikayev is Senior Researcher at the Institute of World Economy and International Relations.
(IMEMO). He is also Research Director of the newly-formed Center for Critical Technologies and Nonproliferation.
In Moscow
By Alexander A. Pikayev.
Published in The Nonproliferation Review / Spring-Summer 1994.
From same source: Since 1992, custodial protection of warheads designated for heavy bombers, as well as those removed from strategic missiles, is performed by troops under Ukrainian control.
In early 1993, Russian experts were even denied access to the storage sites.
Feel free to post some sources for your false information. Russian text welcome.
They were not legally "the property of its successor state Russia. " Ukraine returned the nukes to Russia due to the intense US and Nato pressure -- mostly because Nato was and still is willing to sell their firstborn to limit the number of nuclear states. Furthermore, the nukes were returned only under the explicit Russian assurance of Ukraine's territorial integrity.
Gee, what a bargain!If they belonged to Ukraine, why didn't Ukraine have the codes to operate them?
Why did Kazakhstan and Belarus return 'their' nukes to Russia?
Reiner Otto
07-03-24, 20:30
If they belonged to Ukraine, why didn't Ukraine have the codes to operate them?
Because RF did not provide them.
Only available from highest (Russian) command, of course. On doomsday.
Here you find the (possible ?) scenario: https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/missileers/firs_nf.html
Not absolutely precise, I have to admit. As there were 2 officers required, to initiate launch simultaneously.
How do I know ? 2 times I was in the cmd-centre in Perwomajsk, after being dismanteled.
... Why did Kazakhstan and Belarus return 'their' nukes to Russia? ...
Although an answer is relatively easy to goggle, I certainly can educate you in this respect:
https://www.armscontrol.org/node/3289
You will notice the broken security assurance for UA, thanks to Putler.
To demonstrate, that he does not honor every international agreement.
Because RF did not provide them.
.Yeah, because the owner had the codes and kept them.
Yeah, because the owner had the codes and kept them.We've already established that RF was not the owner of the nukes in Ukraine after the break up of the Soviet Union. We already discussed what would happen if Ukraine kept the Nukes and didn't have the codes.
John Clayton
07-05-24, 02:14
Because RF did not provide them.
Only available from highest (Russian) command, of course. On doomsday...This is not some super advanced, incomprehensible, alien technology. Any well trained, knowlegeable engineer / physicist could, pretty easily, take an existing nuclear bomb with no codes and put new ones on it. The point of all the interlocks, codes and whatever is to prevent some lunatic, or group of lunatics, from setting one off, but they do nothing to prevent competent people (in a comfortable lab) from reprogramming it or removing the electronics and putting on their own.
History of the issue of Ukraine's non-nuclear status:
https://tass.ru/info/13985001
(run Translate to English in Chrome).
This is a message I got today from a western business associate who worked in the FSU for a couple of decades. It's about one of his business partners who was originally from the Donbas. I've omitted places and names so I don't "out" myself or him.
*****s extended family, Aunts and Uncles and cousins live in (Name of city and area in Donbas) under the jack-boot of the Ukrainian Army and last time I heard feed-back about six months ago, they were fearing for their lives daily. Skin-heads patrol the streets and pistol whip any dissenters. They are afraid to speak Russian as they have a mixed Russian and Cossack heritage. *****s aunt and uncles and cousins have been living in their respective basements for a few years now, one cousin died of a heart attack last year (only 30 years old). ***** was devastated, it's all very sad for Ukrainians to be thrust into a major war with one of the most effective yet brutal armies historically and the west pouring weapons in, to 'save Ukraine just increases the misery of the people who can't do much as they don't live in a democracy as we understand it.
History of the issue of Ukraine's non-nuclear status:
https://tass.ru/info/13985001
(run Translate to English in Chrome).Here is an equally fascinating essay.
The So-Called Russian Soul.
By Joseph Goebbels.
https://research.calvin.edu/german-propaganda-archive/goeb11.htm
No need to run anything.
This is a message I got today from a western business associate who worked in the FSU for a couple of decades. It's about one of his business partners who was originally from the Donbas. I've omitted places and names so I don't "out" myself or him.
*****s extended family, Aunts and Uncles and cousins live in (Name of city and area in Donbas) under the jack-boot of the Ukrainian Army and last time I heard feed-back about six months ago, they were fearing for their lives daily. Skin-heads patrol the streets and pistol whip any dissenters. They are afraid to speak Russian as they have a mixed Russian and Cossack heritage. *****s aunt and uncles and cousins have been living in their respective basements for a few years now, one cousin died of a heart attack last year (only 30 years old). ***** was devastated, it's all very sad for Ukrainians to be thrust into a major war with one of the most effective yet brutal armies historically and the west pouring weapons in, to 'save Ukraine just increases the misery of the people who can't do much as they don't live in a democracy as we understand it.Shame on you for throwing a line to Putin's thugs on this forum.
No one was afraid to speak Russian in Ukraine. Not in Donbas, not in Kyiv, not even in Lviv. The so-called language problem is a complete Russian fabrication. There are Russian-speaking fighters in AFU (who don't speak Ukrainian or speak poorly), and they do just fine with their comrades.
Donbas wasn't going anywhere until Russian green little boys poured in. Read Girkin / Strelkov who doesn't mince words about how he and his thugs brought parts of Donbas back under Russian control.
We've already established that RF was not the owner of the nukes in Ukraine after the break up of the Soviet Union. We already discussed what would happen if Ukraine kept the Nukes and didn't have the codes.Russia was the successor of the Soviet Union, that's why the nukes were returned to them. End of discussion, move on.
Reiner Otto
07-05-24, 07:22
History of the issue of Ukraine's non-nuclear status:
https://tass.ru/info/13985001
(run Translate to English in Chrome).Great summary. Thank you.
Interesting is the excuse of Russia, to break the Budapest Memorandum, containing security guarantees to UA.
Usually, nations make agreements with other nations. Russia is very special in (officially not) keeping them.
Who believes, that Putler will honor new agreements?
Reiner Otto
07-05-24, 07:29
Russia was the successor of the Soviet Union, that's why the nukes were returned to them. End of discussion, move on.This guy obviously does not understand serious arguments, or is too lazy to read, still keeping his simple claims without any base.
Putler should cut his salary.
Shame on you for throwing a line to Putin's thugs on this forum.
No one was afraid to speak Russian in Ukraine. Not in Donbas, not in Kyiv, not even in Lviv. The so-called language problem is a complete Russian fabrication. There are Russian-speaking fighters in AFU (who don't speak Ukrainian or speak poorly), and they do just fine with their comrades.
Donbas wasn't going anywhere until Russian green little boys poured in. Read Girkin / Strelkov who doesn't mince words about how he and his thugs brought parts of Donbas back under Russian control.Shame on me? Hey, I didn't lift that from social media. I lifted it from my email, from a message from an individual who's highly respected in his field. And who's been very honest in his dealings with me. Was his friend and business partner outright lying to him? I doubt it. Was he exaggerating? Maybe.
There are two sides to any story. Your sympathy for neoconservatives and Democratic Politicians causes you to believe their side. (Please note I've backed off from calling you a neoconservative or Democrat.) I just think the two sides should stop fighting and come to a solution like Korea. Some of the posters here have historically believed it was in Ukraine's best interest to avoid pursuing peace until it controls all Russian occupied territory including Crimea. They've been proven dead wrong. A lot of people died. And they're still dying.
Shame on me? Hey, I didn't lift that from social media. I lifted it from my email, from a message from an individual who's highly respected in his field. And who's been very honest in his dealings with me. Was his friend and business partner outright lying to him? I doubt it. Was he exaggerating? Maybe.
There are two sides to any story. Your sympathy for neoconservatives and Democratic Politicians causes you to believe their side. (Please note I've backed off from calling you a neoconservative or Democrat.) I just think the two sides should stop fighting and come to a solution like Korea. Some of the posters here have historically believed it was in Ukraine's best interest to avoid pursuing peace until it controls all Russian occupied territory including Crimea. They've been proven dead wrong. A lot of people died. And they're still dying.Sorry, but "trust me bro" is not going to cut it. You're an anon on a mongering site, not a well respected journo.
Shame on me? Hey, I didn't lift that from social media. I lifted it from my email, from a message from an individual who's highly respected in his field. And who's been very honest in his dealings with me. Was his friend and business partner outright lying to him? I doubt it. Was he exaggerating? Maybe.
There are two sides to any story. Your sympathy for neoconservatives and Democratic Politicians causes you to believe their side. (Please note I've backed off from calling you a neoconservative or Democrat.) I just think the two sides should stop fighting and come to a solution like Korea. Some of the posters here have historically believed it was in Ukraine's best interest to avoid pursuing peace until it controls all Russian occupied territory including Crimea. They've been proven dead wrong. A lot of people died. And they're still dying.Not to any story.
There aren't two sides to a story of a serial killer and his victims. Well, let me rephrase: I'm sure serial killers can tell you all kinds of stories, but I'm not interested in them. The only stories worth listening are the stories of their victims.
Putin is much worse than a serial killer. He's a mass murderer who started a horrific, criminal war without any credible grievances. You can believe anything you want, but this supposed email you've received is pure BS. And yes, I know the history and nuances of this conflict better than you do. Much better.
There is only one side to a story where one country is attempting to destroy the other because it doesn't like their government.
Politics has nothing to do here. If you're playing at bothsidedness in this atrocious war, then your politics is the last of your problems.
Not to any story.
There aren't two sides to a story of a serial killer and his victims. Well, let me rephrase: I'm sure serial killers can tell you all kinds of stories, but I'm not interested in them. The only stories worth listening are the stories of their victims.
Putin is much worse than a serial killer. He's a mass murderer who started a horrific, criminal war without any credible grievances. You can believe anything you want, but this supposed email you've received is pure BS.
There is only one side to a story where one country is attempting to destroy the other because it doesn't like their government.Under the leadership of George W. Bush (Iraq), LBJ (Vietnam), Truman (Hiroshima and Nagasaki), FDR (carpet bombing civilians) and a lot of other presidents, the USA invaded countries, purposely killed civilians, and overthrew regimes to promote what our government thought was in the best interests of the USA. I guess many USA Presidents were mass murderers. Certainly a few "started horrific, criminal wars without any credible grievances. ".
Politics has nothing to do here. If you're playing at bothsidedness in this atrocious war, then your politics is the last of your problems.Well, some of you gentlemen are playing at wrongheadedness. That's neither here nor there, but unfortunately many in the western political and military establishment play the same game. They've been encouraging Ukraine to fight the war to the last Ukrainian. This war has been stalemated since November of 2022, and, contrary to your and VinDici's posts for the last year or two, victory is not just around the corner. Instead hundreds of thousands have been killed and maimed.
Returning to your previous post.
Shame on you for throwing a line to Putin's thugs on this forum.
No one was afraid to speak Russian in Ukraine. Not in Donbas, not in Kyiv, not even in Lviv. The so-called language problem is a complete Russian fabrication. There are Russian-speaking fighters in AFU (who don't speak Ukrainian or speak poorly), and they do just fine with their comrades.
Donbas wasn't going anywhere until Russian green little boys poured in. Read Girkin / Strelkov who doesn't mince words about how he and his thugs brought parts of Donbas back under Russian control.From the Kyiv Post in 2019.
Poll: Half of people in occupied Donbas want to join Russia
Only 5.1 percent of people living in the Russia-controlled parts of Donetsk and Luhansk regions want Ukraine to regain control over the territories under the old terms, according to the findings of a joint survey conducted by the Ukrainian Institute of the Future and the Dzerkalo Tyzhnia.Ukraine weekly newspaper with the assistance of New Image Marketing Group, which were unveiled on Nov. 9.
A special status for the region as part of Ukraine is desired by 13.4 percent while 16.2 percent insist on independence.
Half (50.9 percent) want a union with Russia and another 13.4 percent said the region should accede to Russia with a special status. For the whole of Donbas, including its Ukraine-controlled areas, 49.6 percent want it to become part of Russia, with another 13.3 percent choosing such a scenario with a special status for Donbas. A fifth (19.2 percent) see Donbas as part of Ukraine.
https://www.kyivpost.com/post/7557
You have people living side by side in the Donbas, some of whom support Ukraine and some of who support Russia. The two sides are slaughtering each other. It begs belief that Russian supporters in Ukrainian occupied areas have nothing to fear. People on both sides are going to get fucked. That's the way it was in the Thousand Days War in Colombia, border states during the USA Civil War, and Northern Ireland. Neighbors killed each other.
I'm not sure why you're compelled to lecture me on my moral compass. Poor Blood Red's really gotten beat up. You gentlemen should realize we are, as VinDici says, anons on a mongering site, not politicians or Russian operatives. This web site doesn't have the traffic to merit the attention of propagandists or even bots.
And yes, I know the history and nuances of this conflict better than you do. Much better.Sure you do.
unfortunately many in the western political and military establishment play the same game. They've been encouraging Ukraine to fight the war to the last Ukrainian. This war has been stalemated since November of 2022Not true.
From the Kyiv Post in 2019How is a poll conducted before the start of the war and forced conscription into the meat grinder of the Ruzzian army even relevant?
Ukrainians want Russia gone from their land, if there are 5th columnists, they are welcome to leave and live in Russia at any time.
https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cl4y1pjk2dzo
If they can't kidnap Ukrainian children, they just kill them outright instead.
This is what the Z crew is cheering on.
Under the leadership of George W. Bush (Iraq), LBJ (Vietnam), Truman (Hiroshima and Nagasaki), FDR (carpet bombing civilians) and a lot of other presidents, the USA invaded countries, purposely killed civilians, and overthrew regimes to promote what our government thought was in the best interests of the USA. I guess many USA Presidents were mass murderers. Certainly a few "started horrific, criminal wars without any credible grievances. "Oh yeah? Which one.
The Iraq War was definitely a mistake, but it wasn't criminal like Putin's war.
The Vietnam War had disastrous consequences, but it wasn't criminal (although some US actions during the war could be construed as illegal). Still one way or another, the US never invaded North Vietnam. A far cry from Putin's war.
Nuclear bombardments of Japan, as well as the destruction of Dresden (which you're probably alluding to) took place during the wars that had been waged AGAINST the US by Japan and Germany respectively. It was the US that had been attacked by foreign powers! You're seriously comparing these completely justifiable actions to Putin's war?
If this list is the best you can do, then we didn't start any of the wars you mentioned except Iraq. And that one was NOT criminal.
I don't know what you're trying to prove. At first I thought you're just an isolationist who doesn't want his country and his money to get involved in another European mess. But seeing how desperately you're trying to find a justification for the unjustifiable, I honestly don't know what to think.
Are you a Russophile grasping at straws? Would explain it.
Well, some of you gentlemen are playing at wrongheadedness. That's neither here nor there, but unfortunately many in the western political and military establishment play the same game. They've been encouraging Ukraine to fight the war to the last Ukrainian. This war has been stalemated since November of 2022, and, contrary to your and VinDici's posts for the last year or two, victory is not just around the corner. Instead hundreds of thousands have been killed and maimed.Do you even realize that you're parroting Putin's propaganda? That's their post-Orwelian "newspeak". "War to the last Ukrainian". That's how all these "propacondoms" talk, from low-life forms on this forum to disinformation moguls like Solovyev and Skabeyeva.
From the Kyiv Post in 2019.
Poll: Half of people in occupied Donbas want to join Russia
Only 5.1 percent of people living in the Russia-controlled parts of Donetsk and Luhansk regions want Ukraine to regain control over the territories under the old terms, according to the findings of a joint survey conducted by the Ukrainian Institute of the Future and the Dzerkalo Tyzhnia.Ukraine weekly newspaper with the assistance of New Image Marketing Group, which were unveiled on Nov. 9.
A special status for the region as part of Ukraine is desired by 13.4 percent while 16.2 percent insist on independence.
Half (50.9 percent) want a union with Russia and another 13.4 percent said the region should accede to Russia with a special status. For the whole of Donbas, including its Ukraine-controlled areas, 49.6 percent want it to become part of Russia, with another 13.3 percent choosing such a scenario with a special status for Donbas. A fifth (19.2 percent) see Donbas as part of Ukraine.
https://www.kyivpost.com/post/7557So what? Borders don't mean shit anymore?
Does any community in the world have the right to secede because that's how they feel? Are you even listening to yourself?
You have people living side by side in the Donbas, some of whom support Ukraine and some of who support Russia. The two sides are slaughtering each other. No one was slaughtering anyone until Russian "speznaz" led by FSB operatives arrived in Donbass in 2014.
Russia's Igor Strelkov: I Am Responsible for War in Eastern Ukraine
https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2014/11/21/russias-igor-strelkov-i-am-responsible-for-war-in-eastern-ukraine-a41598
Of course, he's full of shit too because nothing gets done in Russia without an order from one man, but this is a good read. Seeing how you get your facts from emails, you might find it useful.
It begs belief that Russian supporters in Ukrainian occupied areas have nothing to fear. I'm sure each of them had something to fear, but it wasn't the language. Look, there are villages and whole cities in Eastern and Central Ukraine where thousands of people don't even speak Ukrainian, period! Which is why I know that your colleague's email is bullshit. On the other hand, all Ukrainians including ethnic Ukrainians speak Russian.
And now that the Russians are there, they detain and torture people simply for speaking Ukrainian. We don't know what happened to the girl who refused to speak to the Z-bloggers in Russian, but I'm sure we will one day. Use the auto-translate function.
https://youtu.be/o-KtrZ5TAN8
I'm not sure why you're compelled to lecture me on my moral compass. Poor Blood Red's really gotten beat up. You gentlemen should realize we are, as VinDici says, anons on a mongering site, not politicians or Russian operatives. This web site doesn't have the traffic to merit the attention of propagandists or even bots.Not on your moral compass but your gullibility. You're helping Russian trolls by quoting obvious lies from your business partner. Whether or not your partner is lying or being lied to is irrelevant, but you must know better, IMHO.
https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cl4y1pjk2dzo
If they can't kidnap Ukrainian children, they just kill them outright instead.
This is what the Z crew is cheering on.Oxfam estimates about 10,600 Ukrainian civilians died during the first 2 years of the war.
https://www.oxfam.org/en/press-releases/ukraine-42-civilian-causalities-every-day-two-years-war#text=As%20 of%2022%20 February%202024,the%20 conflict%2 C%20 including%20587%20 children.
In the smaller Gaza war, estimates of Palestinian deaths, mostly civilians, range from 35,000 to 138,000, and presumably Israel isn't targeting civilians.
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2024/7/8/gaza-toll-could-exceed-186000-lancet-study-says
I don't believe Russia is intentionally targeting children. If it were waging a war on civilians, hundreds of thousands would have died.
That's not to say that there aren't many civilian casualties, or that this war shouldn't stop now. It should.
Not true.
Not on your moral compass but your gullibility. I'd again encourage you to take the Tiny challenge, posed seven months ago. Open two browser windows with the link below. Leave one map at the present date, and take the other back to late November of 2022. The lines of control have changed imperceptibly. This is shaping up like World War I, endless warfare. Pursuing peace would make a lot of sense.
This is an interactive map of areas held by Russia and the Ukraine:
https://www.nzz.ch/english/ukraine-war-interactive-map-of-the-current-front-line-ld.1688087
Open the web page in two browser windows, using the link below. Go the the first map. In one window, leave one at the current date. In the second window, take the date back to 17 November, 2022.
You'll see the two sides have been stalemated for over a year. Any change in the area occupied by Russia is imperceptible.
And how many combatants and civilians have been killed or injured during that period? Hundreds of thousands?
This will go on indefinitely, as long as the two sides have the will, the arms and the young men to continue. The West needs to put pressure on both countries to end the war. Ukraine should give up the idea it can return to pre-2014 borders. It won't happen, and in any event based on polling data the majority in the occupied areas (Crimea and Russian occupied Donbas) preferred to be affiliated with Russia instead of Ukraine before the recent hostilities broke out. Russia should accept the territorial integrity and independence of the rest of the Ukraine, and stop meddling in Ukrainian politics.
I'm not saying the West should pull the plug on aid to Ukraine. It should however push Ukraine to the negotiating table. Russia has been willing to talk for a while, although admittedly who knows if the Kremlin is sincere.
Something like what exists in Korea, a permanent cease fire along the current lines of control, would be much, much preferable to the current situation.
Oh yeah? Which one.
The Iraq War was definitely a mistake, but it wasn't criminal like Putin's war..You are truly a dumb fuck. The Iraq war, which was based on a complete lie (Iraqi WMDs that never existed) resulted in almost a million people dying and the destruction of Iraq, and made the whole middle east even more unstable and gave rise to terrorism all over Iraq. But that isn't criminal in your eyes?
I don't believe Russia is intentionally targeting children. If it were waging a war on civilians, hundreds of thousands would have died..Exactly. These NATO morons believe whatever the pathetic western MSM tells them. What is the military value in killing children or attacking a children's hospital? None. But these people don't get it and believe the lies put forward by the pathetic media they jerk off to daily.
Reiner Otto
07-10-24, 07:56
What is the military value in killing children or attacking a children's hospital? To break the moral of the population. Like Putlers tactics to kidnap Ukrainian children.
To break the moral of the population. Like Putlers tactics to kidnap Ukrainian children.Are you really this stupid? If Putin wanted to do that, he can flatten all of Kiev and the rest of Ukraine in a day to break their morale as you claim is his objective. You make no sense.
https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cl4y1pjk2dzo
If they can't kidnap Ukrainian children, they just kill them outright instead.
This is what the Z crew is cheering on.First of all, before I get into the forensics, I have to clearly point out as someone with a military background, from a military perspective, there is no value in Russia attacking a children's hospital.
Now I have seen the video, so let's start with the facts: Russia fired 38 missiles and Ukraine 'claims' they shot down 30 of them.
Now with regards to the video, you can see 5 Russian Iskender missiles coming in. The profile of the Iskender is that it has a certain wing configuration. Those 5 Iskender missiles targeted military infrastructure.
Then there's a video of the missile that hit the hospital. It does not fit the Iskender profile at all. In fact, it fits the profile of a NASAM. A NATO supplied surface to air missile that is designed to be an air defense missile. And it missed the Iskender, and when it came down, it hit the children's hospital.
If it had been an Iskender that hit the hospital as the pathetic western MSM is claiming, there would be nothing of the hospital left.
So there you go, more lies from the west and NATO exposed. This is a horrific tragedy and all the more reason to reach a negotiated settlement to end this needless war.
If it had been an Iskender that hit the hospital as the pathetic western MSM is claiming, there would be nothing of the hospital left.
So there you go, more lies from the west and NATO exposed. This is a horrific tragedy and all the more reason to reach a negotiated settlement to end this needless war.Not true, analysis has already concluded that it was a russian missile.
The reach you desperately go to justify this kind of evil attack, it just exposes the morality of the Z team.
Not true, analysis has already concluded that it was a russian missile.
The reach you desperately go to justify this kind of evil attack, it just exposes the morality of the Z team.I already posted the analysis. It was not an Iskender. The 5 Iskender's before that hit their target as the videos prove. The hospital was hit by a NATO missile. Another case of Ukrainian AD not working as intended which is tragic.
John Clayton
07-10-24, 16:28
I already posted the analysis. It was not an Iskender. The 5 Iskender's before that hit their target as the videos prove. The hospital was hit by a NATO missile. Another case of Ukrainian AD not working as intended which is tragic.Disinformation is an easy source of money for this poster. It's amazing really how effective Russian propaganda has been on geopolitics and how ubiquitous it is, appearing even on a forum like this, which is dedicated to sex tourism. I suggest that the moderator should block this poster as a fully controlled agent of Russian disinformation.
Disinformation is an easy source of money for this poster. It's amazing really how effective Russian propaganda has been on geopolitics and how ubiquitous it is, appearing even on a forum like this, which is dedicated to sex tourism. I suggest that the moderator should block this poster as a fully controlled agent of Russian disinformation.You are incapable of debating me. Run along now.
DramaFree11
07-10-24, 20:08
You are incapable of debating me. Run along now.Blood Red, these guys are idiots. I am not sure what they are going to do when Ukraine surrenders. They are in complete denial and delusional. Hell half of the still believe the Russian Hoax.
Hopefully Ukraine will surrender soon, but I have my doubts as long as the money keeps coming to Pres. Z. , he will keep going until nothing is left.
Russia continues to get stronger and build Allie's, while the west and it Allies getting weaker.
None of this makes any sense, but nothing about Ukraine ever made sense. A totally corrupt place, with no end in site. This time Russia called there bluff, if Ukraine is not careful there will be nothing left. Over 1/2 million dead, probably 750,000 disabled for what.
Exactly. These NATO morons believe whatever the pathetic western MSM tells them. "These NATO morons. " How nice to find yet another confirmation that you have nothing to do with Putin's Russia, LOL.
To break the moral of the population. Like Putlers tactics to kidnap Ukrainian children.Precisely!
Are you really this stupid? If Putin wanted to do that, he can flatten all of Kiev and the rest of Ukraine in a day to break their morale as you claim is his objective. You make no sense.Oh, that wishful Kyiv-in-3-days thinking again. No, my shrimpy friend, Putin can't "flatten all of Kiev and the rest of Ukraine in a day. " If he could've he would've a long time ago. And then he would've done it again and again and again. He doesn't want Ukraine for Russians, he doesn't want Ukraine, period! Hence the genocide.
I already posted the analysis. It was not an Iskender.Who says anything about an Iskander? The hospital was hit with a KH-101 missile. That has already been proved by real military experts -- not some Putin stooges.
Russian Missile Identified in Kyiv Childrens Hospital Attack
https://www.bellingcat.com/news/2024/07/09/russian-missile-identified-in-kyiv-childrens-hospital-attack
Type of Russian missile that struck Kyiv childrens hospital uses western components
https://www.ft.com/content/ef463ac9-4804-4ad7-b9a2-c113590f2f96
Hospitals: Where Russia Kills Children
https://cepa.org/article/hospitals-where-russia-kills-children
Although I must say, I honestly don't know why I bother. You're obviously getting paid simply for decimation of lies, not making them sound plausible, so why would you care?
The hospital was hit by a NATO missile. Oh, aren't you adorable!
You are truly a dumb fuck. The Iraq war, which was based on a complete lie (Iraqi WMDs that never existed) resulted in almost a million people dying and the destruction of Iraq, and made the whole middle east even more unstable and gave rise to terrorism all over Iraq. But that isn't criminal in your eyes? Easy big fella. Just because you get paid for this exchange while I don't doesn't make me dumb. Or does it? Hmm, well OK, moving on.
No, the Iraq war wasn't criminal. It was conducted in wrong ways, yes, but Saddam brought it on himself by refusing to comply with one UN disarmament resolution after another.
Did Bush's administration fuck up that war? Absolutely!
Did it have the legal right to go to war faced with the real possibility that Saddam had been stockpiling and developing WMD? Absolutely!
Was it the only reason Bush started that war? Absolutely not!
But that has nothing to do with legalities.
Before you start yapping again, may I remind you that even your current employer claimed at the time that Saddam had been stockpiling WMD? And so did France, GB, Germany, Egypt, and Israel, among others.
So no. The Iraq war wasn't criminal. Your war on Ukraine, on the other hand, totally is.
Why the War Wasnt Illegal
https://www.brookings.edu/articles/why-the-war-wasnt-illegal
United Nations Secretary General Kofi Annan was wrong in recently terming the U.S.-led invasion of Iraq illegal.
The war admittedly occurred on legally ambiguous grounds. It is also fair to acknowledge, even among those of us who accepted the logic of risking war to ensure Iraqs verifiable disarmament, that its basic desirability and benefits can be debated. Indeed, while not my view, it can reasonably be argued the war was a strategic mistake, as it may foster more anti-U.S. terrorism and risk leaving Iraq in chaos.
But it was not illegal. U.N. Security Council Resolution 1441, passed by unanimous vote in November 2002, made it clear the then status quo in Iraq was what was illegal. Saddam had already violated some 17 previous resolutions demanding his verifiable disarmament. He was put on notice by Resolution 1441 that continuing this was emphatically unacceptable.
And while inspectors did make progress in Iraq in the ensuing weeks of late 2002 and early 2003, they hardly resolved all questions. Iraqs compliance then remained imperfect at best, as chief U.N. weapons inspector Hans Blix has noted.
Even someone who would have preferred to see the inspections continueand again, there was a case to be made for that approachshould not term the war illegal.
In the longstanding Russian tradition that tacitly celebrates their crimes while denying them publicly, the Russian UN ambassador Vassily Nebenzia published the menu of the reception at a UN Security Council.
Ukraine has criticised Russia for serving chicken Kiev at a UN Security Council dinner.
Sergiy Kyslytsya, the Ukrainian ambassador to the UN, shared an image of the menu which highlighted chicken Kiev served with potato paille.
The moral decay of Russian diplomacy is glaring, he said.
He criticised diplomats for attending the dinner, which he described as being funded with blood money.
The Ukrainian capital was known as Kiev under Soviet rule but Ukrainians call it Kyiv.https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2024/07/10/russia-ukraine-zelensky-putin-war-latest-news51
If you see a "buffalo" sign on an elephant's cage, do not trust your eyes, as once written by Kozma Prutkov.
The following facility was hit this Monday: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luch_Design_Bureau by X-101 (Kh-101).
The hospital nearby was hit by a modified AIM-120. Video of a hit and fragments were posted by the Ukrainian side.
X-101 has wings, a different length to width ratio, leaves usually a distinctive air trail behind, and with a payload of 400 to 800 kg would have obliterated the building.
The Ukrainian side puts its air defense systems, like NASAMS within the city to avoid them being targeted and for technical reasons of Russian missiles trajectories.
This is not the first case, and it is tragic. Civilians die daily on each side, which is actually the one. I don't distinguish between them.
DramaFree11
07-11-24, 02:11
In the longstanding Russian tradition that tacitly celebrates their crimes while denying them publicly, the Russian UN ambassador Vassily Nebenzia published the menu of the reception at a UN Security Council.
Ukraine has criticised Russia for serving chicken Kiev at a UN Security Council dinner.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2024/07/10/russia-ukraine-zelensky-putin-war-latest-news51Xman, just a simple question have you ever been to Ukraine or Russia? I asked before, but you never bothered to answer, but you know everything.
You are one super liberal idiot. This war is not helping anyone including Russia. The war is keeping countries economies down, but you do not care about any of this, just keep the war going and Russia will go home. This will never happen. You guys are destroying Ukraine, with the hopes that Russia will collapse. The opposite is happening, Russia is getting stronger.
If you liberals were serious about defeating Russia, you might want to start producing oil and drive the prices down, but that is too easy. Just keep sending more outdated equipment to Ukraine. There is no training and soon there will be nobody left to operate them. In your fantasy world these problems do not exist, but in the real world they do.
Disinformation is an easy source of money for this poster. It's amazing really how effective Russian propaganda has been on geopolitics and how ubiquitous it is, appearing even on a forum like this, which is dedicated to sex tourism. I suggest that the moderator should block this poster as a fully controlled agent of Russian disinformation.Blood Red is a strong contributor to the UAE / Dubai threads. There's no way he's a paid propagandist. Could he be SVR, bouncing around the Gulf States doing the work of the Fatherland? Well, I guess so. If so, far from wanting to ban him, that would make me super interested in what he has to say. Who knows, maybe Xpartan is CIA and VinDici is MI6. Wouldn't that be a gas! Our own little virtual Casablanca here!
Incrociatore
07-11-24, 05:32
In the longstanding Russian tradition that tacitly celebrates their crimes while denying them publicly, the Russian UN ambassador Vassily Nebenzia published the menu of the reception at a UN Security Council.Just came here to say you are an idiot if you think people get paid by the Russians to troll on this forum. The soon you realise that, the better.
What benefit Russia would gain targeting a children hospital? None. In 2 years Russia has been very careful not to involve or kill civilians. On the contrary Ukraine targeted Russian civilians in the Donbass for year. Not to mention the attack on the Crimea beach. Russian missile strikes have been absolutely precise, and on military targets or infrastructures. Only an idiot could think that Russia deliberately decided to destroy a children hospital. You are out of your mind.
Who says anything about an Iskander? The hospital was hit with a KH-101 missile. That has already been proved by real military experts -- not some Putin stooges.
Iskendar or KH-101 - The missile in the video also lacks the distinctive wings of the Russian Kh-101. It looks like a NATO supplied NASAM. I suggest you consult some pics before making yourself look foolish again.
No, the Iraq war wasn't criminal. It was conducted in wrong ways, yes, but Saddam brought it on himself by refusing to comply with one UN disarmament resolution after another.
Did Bush's administration fuck up that war? Absolutely!
Did it have the legal right to go to war faced with the real possibility that Saddam had been stockpiling and developing WMD? Absolutely!NO WMD were found in Iraq, which was the justification for the invasion. It was an illegal, criminal invasion that resulted in millions of innocent people dying. You don't know shit about shit, you don't know dick.
Blood Red is a strong contributor to the UAE / Dubai threads. There's no way he's a paid propagandist. Could he be SVR, bouncing around the Gulf States doing the work of the Fatherland? Well, I guess so. If so, far from wanting to ban him, that would make me super interested in what he has to say. Who knows, maybe Xpartan is CIA and VinDici is MI6. Wouldn't that be a gas! Our own little virtual Casablanca here!LOL. I'm not Russian. I don't have a horse in this race. I have nothing but the utmost respect for the brave Ukrainian people stuck in the needless war that should have never happened. I have met some very good, kind, decent Ukrainian people. My GP in Australia was a Ukrainian, an amazing man.
I am just telling it like it is, because I know the history and the origin of this conflict or war, whatever you want to call it. The collective west (USA, UK, NATO, etc) used Ukraine as cannon fodder just to make Russia bleed, weaker. Fuck these people.
Blood Red, these guys are idiots. I am not sure what they are going to do when Ukraine surrenders. They are in complete denial and delusional. Hell half of the still believe the Russian Hoax.
Hopefully Ukraine will surrender soon, but I have my doubts as long as the money keeps coming to Pres. Z. , he will keep going until nothing is left.
Russia continues to get stronger and build Allie's, while the west and it Allies getting weaker.
None of this makes any sense, but nothing about Ukraine ever made sense. A totally corrupt place, with no end in site. This time Russia called there bluff, if Ukraine is not careful there will be nothing left. Over 1/2 million dead, probably 750,000 disabled for what.These people are completely delusional. Reality will sink in though. Then what will be their excuse? I think I have an idea.
Notice the crap Biden is spewing these days? He is now saying that 'victory for Ukraine' will be Ukraine continuing to exist as an independent, free country. No mention of borders or territory, notice that. That's the narrative these bastards will take now, after destroying Ukraine. Fuck them.
Reiner Otto
07-11-24, 08:08
Are you really this stupid? If Putin wanted to do that, he can flatten all of Kiev and the rest of Ukraine in a day to break their morale as you claim is his objective. You make no sense.He tried, but failed miserably. Because he expected, the Ukrainians to greet the red invaders with flowers. In this respect Putler is worse than Adolf.
You are missing some good education, obviously.
He tried, but failed miserably. Because he expected, the Ukrainians to greet the red invaders with flowers. In this respect Putler is worse than Adolf.
You are missing some good education, obviously.Looks like you are failing at reading comprehension. I said if Putin wanted to FLATTEN Kiev (NOT capture, the two are different), he could do it within a day or two. He doesn't. Instead, he has been very patient and hitting military targets only.
I already posted the analysis. It was not an Iskender. The 5 Iskender's before that hit their target as the videos prove. The hospital was hit by a NATO missile. Another case of Ukrainian AD not working as intended which is tragic.Just going with out and out lies now.
Just going with out and out lies now.Facts based on what I saw in the videos. Prove me wrong.
Just came here to say you are an idiot if you think people get paid by the Russians to troll on this forum. The soon you realise that, the better.
What benefit Russia would gain targeting a children hospital? None. In 2 years Russia has been very careful not to involve or kill civilians. On the contrary Ukraine targeted Russian civilians in the Donbass for year. Not to mention the attack on the Crimea beach. Russian missile strikes have been absolutely precise, and on military targets or infrastructures. Only an idiot could think that Russia deliberately decided to destroy a children hospital. You are out of your mind.Thank you. Any person with any common sense would know that Russia gains absolutely nothing by attacking a children's hospital. But these morons swallow all the lies from the pathetic western MSM.
Thank you. Any person with any common sense would know that Russia gains absolutely nothing by attacking a children's hospital.I agree. The children in the hospital are a great source for Russia's effort to reseed its population.
Just came here to say you are an idiot if you think people get paid by the Russians to troll on this forum. The soon you realise that, the better.
What benefit Russia would gain targeting a children hospital? None. In 2 years Russia has been very careful not to involve or kill civilians. On the contrary Ukraine targeted Russian civilians in the Donbass for year. Not to mention the attack on the Crimea beach. Russian missile strikes have been absolutely precise, and on military targets or infrastructures. Only an idiot could think that Russia deliberately decided to destroy a children hospital. You are out of your mind.Complete lies, the lot of this.
Facts based on what I saw in the videos. Prove me wrong.Based on the facts that I saw in videos, you are wrong. Proved.
Looks like you are failing at reading comprehension. I said if Putin wanted to FLATTEN Kiev (NOT capture, the two are different), he could do it within a day or two. He doesn't. Instead, he has been very patient and hitting military targets only.Your adversaries here have little or no education and no understanding of advanced warfare. Threads like this are used as a dumping gorund to contain them. No form of advanced discussion is possible because these bots wil just crap in the middle of it. They are the type of folk one avoids.
Blood Red is a strong contributor to the UAE / Dubai threads. There's no way he's a paid propagandist. Take a good look at all the reinforcements that have arrived here literally overnight, old and new, including the trolls you've never seen here before. Still believe BR just happens to be a selfless, passionate madman who just must defend Russia and Putin against all odds on a mongering forum?
I haven't seen a single serious military expert who would subscribe to Russian lies about Ukraine hitting its own hospital in Kyiv. It's not like Russia doesn't have any number of "experts" in their employ, but this is so implausible that no one wants to back it and lose the remnants of their credibility.
Proof #1. Yes, contrary to the nonsense Questner and RB are spewing, the missile does have the wings. See the photo.
https://twitter.com/FRHoffmann1/status/1810686983506735555/photo/1
Proof #2. Turbofan motors only belong to cruise missiles like Kh-101, not NASAMS, which are rocket-powered. See the photo.
https://twitter.com/Justin_Br0nk/status/1810756595329974588/photo/1
Proof #3. Bellingcat analysis has conducted a detailed investigation of the attack and proves that it couldn't have been anything but Kh-110 with a plethora of datapoints. See multiple photos.
https://www.bellingcat.com/news/2024/07/09/russian-missile-identified-in-kyiv-childrens-hospital-attack
I like what this guy says: "Russia's goal not to convince someone in something, their goal is to make so many versions, people will not believe ANYTHING. ".
https://twitter.com/adnashmyash/status/1810787212440785011
Those of you who want to position themselves as Putin's crooks or useful idiots -- who am I to stop you? Keep crying how it doesn't make sense to Putin to kill children, as if he hasn't already killed thousands of them.
Ukraine man no longer approaches stranger Ukrainian man in America. Must be introduced by common friend now like mafia. He doesn't want to hear your thoughts or share his. He wants to live in peace with his family and forget horror story in his country.
Osbourne Cox: And you're my wife's lover?
Ted Treffon: shaking his head No.
Osbourne Cox: Then what are you doing here?
Pause.
Osbourne Cox: I know you. You're the guy from the gym.
Ted Treffon: I'm not here representing HardBodies.
Osbourne Cox: Oh, yes. I know very well what you represent.
Pause.
Osbourne Cox: You represent the idiocy of today.
Ted Treffon: No, I don't represent that either.
Osbourne Cox: Yeah. You're the guy at the gym when I asked about that moronic woman.
Ted Treffon: She's not a moron.
Osbourne Cox: You're in league with that moronic woman. You are part of a league of morons.
Ted Treffon: No. No.
Osbourne Cox: Oh, yes. You see, you're one of the morons I've been fighting my whole life. My whole fucking life. But guess what. Today, I win.
Gun shot.
Russia does not deliberately target civilians in large cities. Hundreds of cases against Ukrainian officers are in prosecution, and other are targeted through reconnaissance or other efforts as information can be bought or supplied. On the other hand ombudsmen on both sides work with Qatar's assistance on separated families. Russian even has a two percent income tax surcharge on higher incomes to pay for rare orphan diseases for children and has very tough laws related to minors and follows international obligations. The suggestion that Russia hit the kids hospital on purpose is preposterous, evil and yes, moronic.
Your adversaries here have little or no education and no understanding of advanced warfare. Threads like this are used as a dumping gorund to contain them. No form of advanced discussion is possible because these bots wil just crap in the middle of it. They are the type of folk one avoids.They have a very low IQ as well.
Reiner Otto
07-12-24, 11:31
I said if Putin wanted to FLATTEN Kiev (NOT capture, the two are different), he could do it within a day or two. Yes, sorry, I did not catch that correctly. Did not assume, your understanding of ". Breaking the morale of the population. " includes to FLATTEN Kiev. Typical Nazi philosophy.
Yes, sorry, I did not catch that correctly. Did not assume, your understanding of ". Breaking the morale of the population. " includes to FLATTEN Kiev. Typical Nazi philosophy.I was just applying your logic. You seem to think that Russia would bomb a children's hospital to break the morale of the Ukrainian people. I don't think that is the case as Russia is not targeting civilians. I just said that going by your skewed logic, if that were the case, then Russia could just carpet bomb Kiev and reduce a big chunk of it to rubble to break their morale. But Russia has no interest in doing that, despite Ukraine hitting a beach in Crimea with families and killing children. But that's okay in your book I guess.
I don't think that is the case as Russia is not targeting civilians.... But Russia has no interest in doing that, despite Ukraine hitting a beach in Crimea with families and killing children.Russia is targeting civilians, it has been proven time and again. They have a keen interest in doing it, why? Because they are Russian and have no morals. Ukraine didn't cause the carnage on that beach, it was the crappy air defence and deployment of. Also even the Z team told people not to go to that beach, but Orcs can't help themselves. Whatever risks I might take, I would not take any family to an active war zone for a beach vacation. Just shows the imperialist mentality of the Orcs.
Russia is targeting civilians, it has been proven time and again. They have a keen interest in doing it, why? Because they are Russian and have no morals. Ukraine didn't cause the carnage on that beach, it was the crappy air defence and deployment of. Also even the Z team told people not to go to that beach, but Orcs can't help themselves. Whatever risks I might take, I would not take any family to an active war zone for a beach vacation. Just shows the imperialist mentality of the Orcs.Your racist crap is disgusting.
Look, I understand why the latest bombing of the Kyiv Children Hospital is seen as an extraordinary event. The pure evil of this premeditated act makes it harder for those Russophiles and useful idiots in the West to look away and come up with their regular bothsider excuses.
But in reality, killing Ukrainian civilians -- including children, women and elderly -- is no big deal for Putin's Russia. They've been doing it for over two years, and they're completely comfortable with their methods. Seriously, what happened on July 8 is nothing extraordinary for those -- hmm, biological entities.
Just look at this war timeline (the sources are below). And keep in mind, it does NOT include any killings in the areas the Russians are currently occupying. That's more than likely going to add thousands upon thousands of victims when Ukraine has liberated its territory.
28 Feb. 2022 - 16 May 2022.
Russian siege of Mariupol: at least 8,034 deaths; likely up to 75,000.
3 Mar. 2022.
Invading Russian forces fire grenade launchers on a column of evacuating civilians between Motyzhyn and Yasnohorodka, killing 37 people.
9 Mar. 2022.
Russian airstrikes on a Mariupol maternity ward and children's hospital kill five people.
11 Mar. 2022.
A Russian tank kills 56 people at a nursing home in Kreminna.
16 Mar. 2022.
Donetsk.
A Russian airstrike on a Mariupol theater kills 300 sheltering civilians.
29 Mar. 2022.
A Russian airstrike on a regional administration building in Mykolaiv city kills 36 civilians.
1 Apr. 2022.
Since Russian forces were pushed back from Kyiv at the end of March, the bodies of more than 1,000 civilians have been discovered in the Bucha region - many hastily buried in shallow graves. The BBC has learned that around 650 people were shot in what a senior police official has described as executions.
On 8 August 2022, officials released a count of civilian deaths in the town of Bucha alone: 458 bodies419 with signs of shooting, torture, or violent traumaand 39 of apparently natural causes but being scrutinized for their relationship to the Russian occupation. 366 were male, 86 female, and five of indiscernible gender due to their condition. Nine were children. 50 bodies remained unidentified, along with body parts and ash.The revelation of massacres of civilians in Bucha, Borodyanka, and Irpin suburbs of Kyiv city ends peace talks.
8 Apr. 2022.
A Russian missile carrying cluster munitions kills 57 people boarding an evacuation train in Kramatorsk.
7 May 2022.
A Russian airstrike kills 60 civilians sheltering at a school in Bilohorivka.
16 May 2022.
Russian forces capture Mariupol.
27 Jun. 2022.
A Russian missile strike on a shopping mall in Kremenchuk kills 20 civilians.
1 Jul. 2022.
A Russian airstrike on residential areas of Serhiivka kills 21 civilians.
9 Jul. 2022.
A Russian artillery strike on Chasiv Yar kills 48 civilians.
14 Jul. 2022.
A Russian missile strike on a concert hall in Vinnytsia city kills 25 civilians.
Unidentified explosion kills over 50 Ukrainian prisoners of war in Russian-held Olenivka.
25 Sep. 2022.
Russian forces kill 50 civilians attempting to evacuate from Kupiansk.
14 Jan. 2023.
A Russian missile strike on an apartment building in Dnipro city kills 46 civilians.
28 Apr. 2023.
A Russian missile hits an apartment building in Uman, killing 24 civilians.
3 May 2023.
Russian shelling of Kherson city kills 24 civilians.
13 Jun. 2023.
A Russian missile strike hits an apartment building in Kryvyi Rih, killing 13 civilians.
27 Jun. 2023.
A Russian missile strike on a restaurant in Kramatorsk kills 13 civilians.
6 Jul. 2023.
A Russian missile strike on a residential building in Lviv kills 10 civilians.
7 Aug. 2023.
Russian shelling of residential areas in Pokrovsk kills 10 civilians and wounds 82 others.
19 Aug. 2023.
A Russian missile strike on a drone exhibition kills seven civilians and wounds 150 others.
5 Oct. 2023.
Russian missile strike kills 59 civilians at a wake luncheon in Hroza.
29 Dec. 2023.
Russian missile and drone strikes kill 32 civilians in Kyiv city and two dozen others across the country.
6 Jan. 2024.
A Russian missile strike on Pokrovsk kills 11 civilians.
7 Feb. 2024.
Russian missile and drone strikes kill four and wound 40 others in Kyiv city.
2 Mar. 2024.
Odesa.
A Russian drone strike on a residential building in Odesa city kills 12 civilians.
15 Mar. 2024.
A Russian ballistic missile strike kills 21 people in central Odesa city.
17 Apr. 2024.
A Russian ballistic missile strike on Chernihiv city kills 18 civilians.
According to the UN Human Rights Monitoring Mission in Ukraine (HRMMU), 703 civilians were killed or injured in April 2024, rising to 864 casualties in May a 31 per cent month-over-month increase in fatalities and the highest level since June 2023.8 Jul. 2024.
Kyiv, Kryvyi Rih, Dnipro, Pokrovsk, Kropyvnytskyi Massive attack against several Ukrainian cities including a Kyiv children hospital leaves at least 36 dead, 140 wounded, and the wounded keep dying.
Sources:
https://www.hrw.org/feature/russia-ukraine-war-mariupol/counting-the-dead
https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/frontline/article/20-days-in-mariupol-filmmaker-q-and-a
https://acleddata.com/ukraine-conflict-monitor/#timeline.
https://reliefweb.int/report/ukraine/ukraine-situation-report-12-july-2024-enuk#.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-61442387
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bucha_massacre#cite_note-NYT-Gall-94.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bucha_massacre#cite_note-WaPo-Sly-95.
Russia is targeting civilians, it has been proven time and again. They have a keen interest in doing it, why? Because they are Russian and have no morals. You're correct that Russian servicemen aren't exactly paragons of virtue. Most come from tough backgrounds and grow up in poverty, far away from big cities. They keep their heads down, follow orders and suck up to their local bosses, so a power trip like this one is intoxicating.
But there's a big difference between killings on the ground and deliberately targeting civilians en masse, like on July 8th. Here, Russia's using a tactic straight out of a terrorist playbook: scare the living shit out of everyone in hope that Ukrainians crack and pressure Kyiv to just give in. A strike on a children's hospital is simply another tool in their arsenal. As I mentioned before, this war's been a nightmare for children from the get-go. The Mariupol theater bombing killed hundreds. So the message they're sending is crystal clear: surrender or keep digging your kids out of the rubble.
Will it work? Probably not. Hitler's Blitz didn't break the Brits, and the Allies bombing Dresden to oblivion didn't make the Germans fold either. If Russia were capable of learning from history, they would know that their extreme brutality will only make Ukraine fight harder.
On the other hand, had they been capable of learning, they wouldn't have started this disastrous war.
Dmitry Medvedev, Russia's former president and prime minister, said on Wednesday that Russia will seek to occupy "remaining Ukrainian lands" even if Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky agrees to the Kremlin's most recent conditions for peace.
Medvedev, now deputy chairman of the Security Council of Russia, "reaffirmed that Russia would not accept or uphold any negotiated peace settlements with Kyiv short of Ukrainian capitulation, the destruction of the entire Ukrainian state, and the full occupation of Ukraine," the Institute for the Study of War, a U.S.-based think tank, said in its latest analysis of the conflict in Ukraine.
In a post on his Telegram channel, Medvedev said Zelensky agreeing to Putin's most recent conditions for peace will not constitute the "end of the Russian military operation" in Ukraine.
"Even after signing the papers and accepting defeat, the remaining radicals, after regrouping their forces, will sooner or later return to power, inspired by Russia's Western enemies. And then the time will come to finally crush the reptile. To drive a long steel nail into the coffin lid of Bandera's quasi-state," he said.
Russia will eventually return "remaining Ukrainian lands to the bosom of the Russian land," Medvedev wrote.https://www.newsweek.com/russia-ukraine-peace-talks-medvedev-war-1923713
https://www.newsweek.com/russia-ukraine-peace-talks-medvedev-war-1923713Dumbass, you don't even realize that Medvedev plays the good cop / bad cop thing.
Reiner Otto
07-15-24, 16:09
despite Ukraine hitting a beach in Crimea with families and killing children. But that's okay in your book I guess.You guess wright. Sevastopol was and is military target, because of the Russian navy there and the close by military airport. Everybody going there on vacation at the beaches close by is rather stupid. Many better areas on Crimea, in this respect. Ask me, happy to give advice. I. e. Stormovoye. According to the news info, missile fragments hit the beach visitors. Either from attacking UA missiles, or Russian defense missiles. Not to be compared to a direct hit, like in Kiev.
You guess wright. Sevastopol was and is military target, because of the Russian navy there and the close by military airport. Everybody going there on vacation at the beaches close by is rather stupid. Many better areas on Crimea, in this respect. Ask me, happy to give advice. I. e. Stormovoye. According to the news info, missile fragments hit the beach visitors. Either from attacking UA missiles, or Russian defense missiles. Not to be compared to a direct hit, like in Kiev.Ukraine has been deliberately targeting Russian CIVILIANS in Crimea (And these people have lived there for centuries) and in the Donbas for years and years. But that's okay in your book because you are racist towards Russians and think Russian lives don't matter. And a beach with innocent civilians is not a military target, grow a brain.
Video of June 23rd attack in the middle of the article:
https://www.fontanka.ru/2024/06/25/73751654/
To add faces to use of American cluster munitions against civilians: (run Google translate).
https://aif.ru/society/people/dvoe-detey-ostalis-sirotami-na-plyazhe-v-krymu-rakety-vsu-ubili-dvuh-mam
99% of information on Ukraine in Western media is a mix of omissions and lies, mockery and debilitating paternalism.
The hardest facts are censored both in Ukrainian and Russian official media. I guess the sum of the above leaves the absolute majority of people in the West absolutely clueless on purpose.
Reiner Otto
07-16-24, 15:11
Ukraine has been deliberately targeting Russian CIVILIANS in Crimea Obvious lie.
Quotation from fontanka. Ru:
Air defense forces shot down four missiles, and another one deviated from its flight path as a result of air defense impact. Its warhead exploded in the air above the city. .
No direct attack. Opposed to Russian barbaric attack on childrens hospital in Kiev.
Interestingly enough, even Russian politicians ask to close public beaches close to important military installations in Crimea.
Of course, after the accident, not too far from military airport Belbek, Sevastopol.
https://semnasem.org/news/2024/06/26/deputy-calls-for-closing-beaches-near-military-sites-in-krasnodar-and-sevastopol
Elvis 2008
07-17-24, 00:32
https://www.newsweek.com/russia-ukraine-peace-talks-medvedev-war-1923713And why in the hell is Russia going to give up those lands? The only way it would not is if NATO goes to full war with Russia, but we do not have to wait for that. The guys here who are realistic about this was will chip in and buy all your gear myself included if you get off your ass from behind the keyboard and go fight the Russians yourself. WTF are you waiting for? Quit your griping and get to it soldier. You are asking the Ukrainians to put their lives on the line as opposed to trusting Putin. You should be willing to do the same you hypocrite.
Reiner Otto
07-17-24, 09:18
You are asking the Ukrainians to put their lives on the line as opposed to trusting Putin. Nobody is asking the Ukrainians. However, they are simply asking (begging?) for ammunition and weapons, not in small drops, like now, but in steady streams.
The (in-) famous Americans, who put their boots to fight onto Vietnams soil, or Afghanistans, are not even able or willing now to give such support.
But they can fight for economic interests, of course. Like in Iraq.
Similar for the Europeans, of course.
Both offering plenty of good words, though.
To trust Putler? Who broke the Budapest Agreement, after cheating the UA to drop their atomic weapons?
One more similarity of Wladimir to Adolf, BTW, who broke the agreement to the SU, not to attack.
Obvious lie.
Quotation from fontanka. Ru:
Air defense forces shot down four missiles, and another one deviated from its flight path as a result of air defense impact. Its warhead exploded in the air above the city. .
No direct attack. Opposed to Russian barbaric attack on childrens hospital in Kiev.
Interestingly enough, even Russian politicians ask to close public beaches close to important military installations in Crimea.
Of course, after the accident, not too far from military airport Belbek, Sevastopol.
https://semnasem.org/news/2024/06/26/deputy-calls-for-closing-beaches-near-military-sites-in-krasnodar-and-sevastopolSelective quoting. It's common knowledge that Ukraine has targeted Russian civilians deliberately, whether in Belgorod, the Donbas and Crimea.
Nobody is asking the Ukrainians. However, they are simply asking (begging?) for ammunition and weapons, not in small drops, like now, but in steady streams.
What you do not understand (Because you do not have a military background and believe the lies from the pathetic mainstream western media) is this:
The problem that Ukraine faces is 2-fold.
Lack of weapons.
Manpower.
The collective west cannot give Ukraine the weapons in the quantity that Ukraine needs, and I'm talking mainly about artillery here.
The most critical problem for Ukraine is manpower. The collective west cannot create soldiers for Ukraine. Sure, they can give it a lot of cash by printing money, but they can't print soldiers.
The 2 reasons highlighted above are the main reasons why Ukraine will lose this war.
Reiner Otto
07-17-24, 17:27
The problem that Ukraine faces is 2-fold.
1) Lack of weapons.
2)Manpower.
3)The collective west cannot give Ukraine the weapons in the quantity that Ukraine needs, and I'm talking mainly about artillery here.
1) is Correct. 2) is correct.
3) The West DOES NOT WANT to give Ukraine the weapons in quantity that Ukraine needs.
Producing artillery shells in huge quantity is no rocket science. Only question of money and WILL.
Reiner Otto
07-17-24, 17:36
It's common knowledge that Ukraine has targeted Russian civilians deliberately, whether in Belgorod, the Donbas and Crimea.Since when are Russian civilians in Belgorod, Donbas or Crimea?
Occupied territories, so called "Russian civilians" there are simply occupiers or invaders.
Sent there to replace kidnapped Ukrainian children, or deported inhabitants. Good old Russian tradition, I. E. On Crimea.
1) is Correct. 2) is correct.
3) The West DOES NOT WANT to give Ukraine the weapons in quantity that Ukraine needs.
Producing artillery shells in huge quantity is no rocket science. Only question of money and WILL.I agree with you that the west does not want to give Ukraine the weapons in the quantity that Ukraine needs even if they had them. That's because they are cunts and want to USE Ukraine to make Russia weaker. And still you folks are cheering for this war to go on, think about it.
And if you read my post carefully, I said artillery, in particular the 155 mm shells. The west does not have the capacity right now to produce them in the numbers that Ukraine needs to match Russia.
Since when are Russian civilians in Belgorod, Donbas or Crimea?
Occupied territories, so called "Russian civilians" there are simply occupiers or invaders.
Sent there to replace kidnapped Ukrainian children, or deported inhabitants. Good old Russian tradition, I. E. On Crimea.Ummm, you do know that Belgorod is a part of Russia, or don't you?
There are ethnic Russians in Donbas and Crimea and Ukraine has been deliberately targeting them since 2014, especially the Donbas.
Remember Peter's denial and repentance? The West three times reneged on the agreements: in February 2014, the Minsk Agreements in Autumn of 2021 and the Istanbul agreements in Spring of 2022.
Three times Russia was fooled, and we won't repeat the same mistakes again.
In Autumn of 2021 Ukraine with the support of the US opted for Plan be which meant military action and breakdown of the Minsk Agreements. The negotiations stopped only close to February 8, 2022.
In fact, two UAF brigades crossed into Donbass at dawn of 24th before the start of the SMO.
As for munitions: no, Ukraine does not ask for them, it's a sales force within the belt and MIC and the sales people in Kiev who were hired for this war, they ask for more and more. It's a racket with 2% of GDP target and the rest of nations are stupid enough to pay up. We have a great proverb, 'If you don't pay for your own army, you are going to pay to a foreign one'. We produce 152 mm shells at 8 cents to the dollar compared to NATO, and will start with artillery production and purchase of 155 mm soon.
Reiner Otto
07-18-24, 10:00
I said artillery, in particular the 155 mm shells. The west does not have the capacity right now to produce them in the numbers that Ukraine needs to match Russia.In February: Czech President Petr Pavel said at the Munich Security Conference on Saturday. The president said the potential purchase concerned half a million rounds of 155-millimeter caliber ammunition and 300,000 rounds of 122-millimeter caliber ammunition.
The USA Is currently producing approximately 28,000 155 mm rounds per month, with a ramp-up plan to produce 70,000-80,000 rounds per month by the end of 2024.
Already sufficient for quite a while. Not counting European production, and South African.
Not only the numbers of shells count, but also the precision to deliver them. And here Western gear should have an advantage.
But, unfortunately, Western will is lacking. See the new American delays regarding F16.
In February: Czech President Petr Pavel said at the Munich Security Conference on Saturday. The president said the potential purchase concerned half a million rounds of 155-millimeter caliber ammunition and 300,000 rounds of 122-millimeter caliber ammunition.
The USA Is currently producing approximately 28,000 155 mm rounds per month, with a ramp-up plan to produce 70,000-80,000 rounds per month by the end of 2024.
Already sufficient for quite a while. Not counting European production, and South African.
Not only the numbers of shells count, but also the precision to deliver them. And here Western gear should have an advantage.
But, unfortunately, Western will is lacking. See the new American delays regarding F16.You didn't post the Russian production numbers.
The F16's won't change anything, just like the Leopards or the Bradleys or the Challengers or the Abrams didn't. The F16's will just BURN.
The corporate sponsored bonus for the first shot down F-16 has been set at 15 million rubles (or $150,000 plus).
The latest on the conflict from the official RF's POV:
https://mid.ru/en/foreign_policy/news/1962610/
https://mid.ru/en/foreign_policy/news/1962428/
And why in the hell is Russia going to give up those lands? The only way it would not is if NATO goes to full war with Russia, but we do not have to wait for that. The guys here who are realistic about this was will chip in and buy all your gear myself included if you get off your ass from behind the keyboard and go fight the Russians yourself. WTF are you waiting for? Quit your griping and get to it soldier. You are asking the Ukrainians to put their lives on the line as opposed to trusting Putin. You should be willing to do the same you hypocrite.LOL, dude, "the guys here who are realistic about this" are Putin's trolls. They're lying here for money. If I weren't watching your posts for a long time and didn't know that you're just a crazy fool who's willing to believe in anything -- you could've fooled me. Good job -- doing the work of fascists and war criminals for them.
'Useful Idiots'—Stalin's Then and Putin's Now
https://prospect.org/blogs-and-newsletters/tap/2024-02-20-useful-idiots-stalins-then-putins-now
These fools come up with a new wonder weapon every 3 months and tout it like it will make a difference and change the final outcome. It won't.
We heard this same non sense with the Leopards, how it would help the Ukrainian counter offensive in 2023. How did that work out? It was a suicide mission.
Like I already said, the F16's will be shot down and burn.
John Clayton
07-21-24, 15:56
... Like I already said, the F16's will be shot down and burn.Put your money where your mouth is -- how about betting your monthly FSB stipend? I'll guess I could cover it. How much do you get?
These fools come up with a new wonder weapon every 3 months and tout it like it will make a difference and change the final outcome. It won't.
We heard this same non sense with the Leopards, how it would help the Ukrainian counter offensive in 2023. How did that work out? It was a suicide mission.
Like I already said, the F16's will be shot down and burn.You're hilarious. Your commanders are throwing their serfs in meat assaults 24/7. That's two years of uninterrupted suicide missions. You're burning through thousands of Russian bodies EVERY FUCKING DAY!
Just wait. The meat will run out soon enough.
You're hilarious. Your commanders are throwing their serfs in meat assaults 24/7. That's two years of uninterrupted suicide missions. You're burning through thousands of Russian bodies EVERY FUCKING DAY!
Just wait. The meat will run out soon enough.You still won't talk about the Ukrainian casualties. It's obvious why.
Until the last Ukrainian? Sickening.
Put your money where your mouth is -- how about betting your monthly FSB stipend? I'll guess I could cover it. How much do you get?You are a dumbass.
Reiner Otto
07-22-24, 15:02
You didn't post the Russian production numbers.
Why should I?
Everybody knows, Putler is buying shells in North Korea. Which means, he is not producing enough himself.
May be, even more than the West is willing to donate to UA. Actually.
But the West is able to increase production much faster than Putler.
John Clayton
07-22-24, 16:23
You are a dumbass.Just tell us how much you make and I'll stop asking.
But the West is able to increase production much faster than Putler.Keep believing the lies being fed to you.
You still won't talk about the Ukrainian casualties. It's obvious why.
Until the last Ukrainian? Sickening.Talk about what? Ukrainian casualties are not anywhere on the same level. If you had favorable numbers from reputable sources, you wouldn't ask me. You'd already scream them from the top of the roof.
Talk about what? Ukrainian casualties are not anywhere on the same level. If you had favorable numbers from reputable sources, you wouldn't ask me. You'd already scream them from the top of the roof.Why are you afraid to answer a simple question? You quoted the Russian casualties (as per your sources that you believe), so it's only fair that you share what is the number of Ukranian casualties from your sources that you're willing to believe.
Why are you afraid to answer a simple question? You quoted the Russian casualties (as per your sources that you believe), so it's only fair that you share what is the number of Ukranian casualties from your sources that you're willing to believe.Because I don't make things up? How about that?
I don't know the Ukrainian casualties. The Russian casualties are well established. They're published by Ukraine daily and turned out to be quite conservative according to the latest Western intelligence estimates.
The Ukrainian casualties estimates, however, aren't available from reputable sources. So, be a good boy and fuck off.
Better tell us again how much Putin loves Ukrainian children.
Find it much more illuminating:
https://t.me/s/TrackAMerc
DramaFree11
07-24-24, 14:41
Because I don't make things up? How about that?
I don't know the Ukrainian casualties. The Russian casualties are well established. They're published by Ukraine daily and turned out to be quite conservative according to the latest Western intelligence estimates.
The Ukrainian casualties estimates, however, aren't available from reputable sources. So, be a good boy and fuck off.
Better tell us again how much Putin loves Ukrainian children.Dude, you make everything up. Ukraine has and will always lie about everything, why would they be honest about war or casualties. It amazes me how little you know about Ukraine people, that is probably because you have never visited either Ukraine or Russia. I visited both frequently, Russia was amazing, highly functioning and people were living a nice life. Ukraine had become a dump and was being over run by corruption, it was terrible. I am one of the few people that ever wrote about this. Why stop lying and making crap up.
The rate is 5-1 dead Ukraine's to every dead Russian, probably closer to 7-1 or even higher. You truly live in a fantasy world. This also does not count the critically wounded, guys and girls that lost limbs or worse. They will never have normal life.
Because I don't make things up? How about that?
I don't know the Ukrainian casualties. The Russian casualties are well established. They're published by Ukraine daily and turned out to be quite conservative according to the latest Western intelligence estimates.
The Ukrainian casualties estimates, however, aren't available from reputable sources. So, be a good boy and fuck off.
Better tell us again how much Putin loves Ukrainian children.Zelensky quoted some figures a while back. Are you saying they are not credible? Are you saying the very honest Ukrainian President is not a reputable source?
Reiner Otto
07-24-24, 16:09
Ukraine had become a dump and was being over run by corruption, it was terrible. You know, that Russias ranking in the list of most corrupt countries is even worse than Ukraines.
And you are not the only one, who knows both RF and UA. I worked and lived 5 yrs in the RF, and also about 5 yrs in UA. Corrupt were / are both.
In the previous Millenium, even possible to bribe judges in the RF for a few hundred bucks.
Zelensky quoted some figures a while back. Are you saying they are not credible? Are you saying the very honest Ukrainian President is not a reputable source?Is this what your employer is paying you for -- childish bickering?
If you have this information, why ask me? What's wrong with you?
In the meantime, Putin introduced a mind-blowing $22,000 signing bonus for Moscovites. Because, you know, the Third Rome is doing so great and there's no shortage of canon fodder, right?
The average monthly salary in Russia is about $1 K.
Per Wikipedia (considered to reflect Western POV. Always read the same article in as many languages as possible as content usually differs):
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_Russo-Ukrainian_War
As of February 2024 Russian source (run Google translate, don't read BM comments below):
https://topwar.ru/237277-ot-31-do-444-tysjach-ocenki-ukrainskih-poter.html
As we follow obituaries and verify them, the UAF death toll excluding MIA, POW, deserters etc closes on a half of a million.
Again, I wish no one even get a scratch on a hand.
Zed of course lies. There are daily visual technical control measures to prove it.
Is this what your employer is paying you for -- childish bickering?
If you have this information, why ask me? What's wrong with you?
In the meantime, Putin introduced a mind-blowing $22,000 signing bonus for Moscovites. Because, you know, the Third Rome is doing so great and there's no shortage of canon fodder, right?
The average monthly salary in Russia is about $1 K.I just find it odd that you are quick to quote the Russian casualty figures but don't have the balls to speak about those for AFU.
The rate is 5-1 dead Ukraine's to every dead Russian, probably closer to 7-1 or even higher. You truly live in a fantasy world. This also does not count the critically wounded, guys and girls that lost limbs or worse. They will never have normal life.Anyone that believes the Ukrainian propaganda is either stupid or delusional. The ratio of casualties you have posted is correct. Anyone that understands warfare, artillery, manpower, etc, or anyone with any common sense would agree with that ratio. To claim the Russians are suffering far more casualties than the Ukrainians makes no sense and defies logic. But then again, a lot of people are happy to go along with the propaganda and lies. That is, until reality catches up. And it will catch up soon.
Remember Afghanistan? Does anyone? The media doesn't talk about it anymore. NATO spent about 20 years there, and we were told the same lies, that they will stay until the very end, that the Taliban were being defeated, and does anyone remember what happened? Suddenly we saw NATO leaving with people falling off fleeing aircraft and we had the Afghan Zelensky, Ashraf Ghani, fleeing Afghanistan with suitcases full of money to the west. The same will happen in Ukraine. Wait for it. What a horrific, needless tragedy. NATO and the collective west are pure evil.
Reiner Otto
07-25-24, 20:44
The ratio of casualties you have posted is correct. Anyone that understands warfare, artillery, manpower, etc, or anyone with any common sense would agree with that ratio. Where do you get your special knowledge from? Good connection to the GRU?
You often clame some so called "facts", without any (serious) source. Your private speculations (or directed desinformation? Presented as "facts".
And when you talk about Afghanistan: Didn't the glorious Red Army (and some East-German paratroopers, helping the poor Russians) retreat without balls from Afghanistan?
According to your simple arithmetics, the Russians should have won ...
Beijing4987
07-25-24, 23:06
Hasn't this "special military operation" shown the experts here that land, sea & air war has been incrementally changing? And isn't it it premature to be making predictions. Asshole Colonel Douglas McGregor has been claiming for quite a while that Ukraine would capitulate in 10 days or less.
Where do you get your special knowledge from? Good connection to the GRU?
You often clame some so called "facts", without any (serious) source. Your private speculations (or directed desinformation? Presented as "facts".
And when you talk about Afghanistan: Didn't the glorious Red Army (and some East-German paratroopers, helping the poor Russians) retreat without balls from Afghanistan?
According to your simple arithmetics, the Russians should have won ...
You can believe the numbers that Ukraine is giving, that is your prerogative. Time will tell who is right and who is wrong.
I gave Afghanistan as an example of the treachery of NATO and the collective west. I guess that one went over your head, not surprising really. But do try to put 2 and 2 together. Of course the Red Army lost in Afghanistan. No one can defeat the Afghans. But once again I stress, I'm talking about NATO treachery here. Ukraine will see that very soon.
Hasn't this "special military operation" shown the experts here that land, sea & air war has been incrementally changing? And isn't it it premature to be making predictions. Asshole Colonel Douglas McGregor has been claiming for quite a while that Ukraine would capitulate in 10 days or less.So, McGregor is an asshole but Ben Hodges and David Petraeus, that claimed Ukraine will have a highly successful counter offensive in 2023 are right? You don't know what you're talking about.
Beijing4987
07-26-24, 09:50
My point is that Douglas McGregor's predictions are premature. His information is from insider sources he can't disclose. The nature of war is changing. That we do know. Now back to the speculation about body count ratios. McGregor just released an address advocating isolationism and abstinence to constant foreign wars. A noble gesture we could all hope for, but wishful thinking. It's not over until one side blinks. Russia has some momentum at the moment.
My point is that Douglas McGregor's predictions are premature. His information is from insider sources he can't disclose. The nature of war is changing. That we do know. Now back to the speculation about body count ratios. McGregor just released an address advocating isolationism and abstinence to constant foreign wars. A noble gesture we could all hope for, but wishful thinking. It's not over until one side blinks. Russia has some momentum at the moment.I actually agree with you about McGregor's predictions, they have been proven wrong quite often and are premature. But overall, the man is right. About the current state of affairs, and as to how this whole conflict began. I agree it's not over, but I stand by what I have said from day 1, that this conflict will end with a Russian victory.
Hasn't this "special military operation" shown the experts here that land, sea & air war has been incrementally changing? And isn't it it premature to be making predictions. Asshole Colonel Douglas McGregor has been claiming for quite a while that Ukraine would capitulate in 10 days or less.Land, sea and air warfare has changed even more radically than Hitler's blitzkrieg into France changed it, Drones are a major factor. The USA suffered their heaviest fatalities in Aprtil 1945 when the Wehrmacht was on its last legs. Even though the Wehrmacht were being battered, they could counter attack, albeit with less force than previously. Don; t take all your knoweldge from CNN and the pro Ukrainian ladyboys who hog this thread.
Have you ever experienced a Russian glider bomb? A thing of beauty. Whoosh. Everything is gone. Nothing remains. War is a beautiful thing.
Russian literature can work as a mirror to understanding the psyche behind the current events.
Here is https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dead_Souls by Gogol (not your caricature General Gogol from 007 franchise).
Quote 'Chichikov is revealed by the author to be a former mid-level government official fired for corruption and narrowly avoiding jail. His macabre mission to acquire "dead souls" is actually just another one of his "get rich quick" schemes. Once he acquires enough dead souls, he will take out an enormous loan against them and pocket the money. '.
Sounds familiar? The Ukrainian government collect money from the West to finance the number of the soldiers who are long gone. Dead souls. So comes your massive understating of losses at the battlefield. The men are long gone but they are still on a payroll on paper.
You can believe the numbers that Ukraine is giving, that is your prerogative. Time will tell who is right and who is wrong.
I gave Afghanistan as an example of the treachery of NATO and the collective west. I guess that one went over your head, not surprising really. But do try to put 2 and 2 together. Of course the Red Army lost in Afghanistan. No one can defeat the Afghans. But once again I stress, I'm talking about NATO treachery here. Ukraine will see that very soon.Another day -- another 1,200 Putin's liberators bite the dust.
Practically routine now.
https://www.reddit.com/r/RussianLosses/comments/1edzcgt/estimated_russian_losses_from_24022022_to
Another day -- another 1,200 Putin's liberators bite the dust.
Practically routine now.
https://www.reddit.com/r/RussianLosses/comments/1edzcgt/estimated_russian_losses_from_24022022_toAnd Russia is taking territory everyday and destroying AFU.
Ukraine is winning.
P. s you are a dumbass.
John Clayton
07-29-24, 16:44
And Russia is taking territory everyday and destroying AFU.
Ukraine is winning.
P. s you are a dumbass.Have you given any thought to your future source of income after the collapse of the Russian Federation?
And Russia is taking territory everyday and destroying AFU.
Ukraine is winning.
P. s you are a dumbass.Yeah, Russia's taking. Aha.
What Russia's taking is a few village streets per week while cheerfully destroying their so-called army in the process.
Anyone who might be thinking to themselves "gee, maybe those mighty Russians are really on a cusp of winning" can check this interactive map for their actual "progress". You can easily track their movement daily, weekly or monthly.
https://deepstatemap.live/en
Remember Kyiv in three days, LOL.
In other news: 1,200 dead and crippled Orks per day with almost nothing to show for it. In other words, business as usual. Routine.
Woops, just checked again, and it's been corrected. "Only" 1,180 today. Sorry for overstating your losses.
Have you given any thought to your future source of income after the collapse of the Russian Federation?He'll have more pressing issues, unfortunately. The RF collapse will be anything but peaceful, and finding a country to take him might prove difficult.
Remember Kyiv in three days, LOL.
.No Russian official ever said that, dumbass.
Do you know who actually said that? General Mark Milley. Google who he is if you don't know, and there's a lot you don't know.
He'll have more pressing issues, unfortunately. The RF collapse will be anything but peaceful, and finding a country to take him might prove difficult.Pure comedy.
Elvis 2008
07-31-24, 00:05
Pure comedy.Yeah, they are a joke but I am not laughing. This was literally something that scared the shit out of me today.
Go to around the 12 minute mark in this video. https://www.bitchute.com/video/9gHlVNJ1Pu9P/.
You got a former American colonel saying a Russian supersonic bomber was destroyed by drones and the drones were launched from Finland which is NATO country. This is an act of war by NATO if it was in fact NATO that launched the drones.
He hedges his bet by saying it probably was Finland and doubts Ukraine could do it.
Peter Zeihan, who may as well be the spokesperson for the CIA, then puts this piece out about how great Ukrainian drones have become. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JlRNLCq4HWE.
It seems like he is trying to convince the Russians, "Yeah, it could have been Ukraine. ".
NATO blowing up a Russian supersonic bomber on Russian soil? Are you fucking kidding me? I listen to the Colonel and he makes the point that it is not NATO and the USA we are relying on to be rational but Putin. How fucked up is that? And yes, I have more faith in Putin's rationality than I do NATO or the USA right now because right now no one knows who is calling the shots with NATO and the USA. If you think it is Biden, you are as demented as he is.
Yet, the idiotic Dems keep using these Hitler analogies. Could Hitler push a button and destroy the USA like Putin can? How much more shit is Putin supposed to take?
Now we just have to hear the dumb Dems come in here and say it is good we blew up a Russian bomber on Russian soil. Yeesh.
Out of commedia dell'arte characters. I've met many and many are long departed. So, to put money on the table, here are examples of bonuses promised and already paid by Russian businessmen and artists for destroyed NATO equipment in Ukraine:
TANKS: Abrams (USA) – 10 million rubles, Leopard (Germany) - 1 million rubles; Leclerc (France) wheeled tank IMX-10 - 500,000 rubles.
Air defense systems: Patriot air defense missile system, USA – 10 million rubles; Himars air defense missile system, USA – 5 million rubles, Gepard, Germany – 500,000 rubles.
ARTILLERY: Howitzer 155 mm 777, USA - 1 million rubles; AHS Krab self-propelled gun, Poland – 1 million rubles.
ARMORED VEHICLES: Bradley (USA) - 500,000 rubles; Marder (Germany) - 500,000 rubles, International MaxxPro, USA - 500,000 rubles; Kirpy Türkiye — 500,000 rubles.
Not shabby at all.
Satellite images of the Olenya airbase after the recent Ukrainian drone strike attempt.
As you can see, there is no visual confirmation of the Tu-22 M3 being hit or even traces of the drone flying in the vicinity of the airbase, despite the stories being spread by the Ukrainian Intelligence.
https://t.me/milinfolive/127108
Nothing came from Finland. Yes, drones can fly far. Hitting one such aircraft will be a major escalation, it's beyond the so called red lines. Yes, it's serious. When the previous time anyone here was at the nearest nuclear bunker?
Reiner Otto
07-31-24, 09:45
You got a former American colonel saying a Russian supersonic bomber was destroyed by drones and the drones were launched from Finland which is NATO country. Wrong.
You are spreading desinformation, because the guy used the words "probably launched from Finland" .
Only a question of money, to buy a former Speznaz guy to sneak close to a Russian airbase and launch a drone to attack.
All this stuff is interesting as a goiter!
What about the lone pussies to fuck in Kiew?
No one dares to go and check it out instead spreading fake news?
DramaFree11
07-31-24, 11:01
Yeah, they are a joke but I am not laughing. This was literally something that scared the shit out of me today.
Go to around the 12 minute mark in this video. https://www.bitchute.com/video/9gHlVNJ1Pu9P/.
You got a former American colonel saying a Russian supersonic bomber was destroyed by drones and the drones were launched from Finland which is NATO country. This is an act of war by NATO if it was in fact NATO that launched the drones.
He hedges his bet by saying it probably was Finland and doubts Ukraine could do it.
Peter Zeihan, who may as well be the spokesperson for the CIA, then puts this piece out about how great Ukrainian drones have become. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JlRNLCq4HWE.
It seems like he is trying to convince the Russians, "Yeah, it could have been Ukraine. ".
NATO blowing up a Russian supersonic bomber on Russian soil? Are you fucking kidding me? I listen to the Colonel and he makes the point that it is not NATO and the USA we are relying on to be rational but Putin. How fucked up is that? And yes, I have more faith in Putin's rationality than I do NATO or the USA right now because right now no one knows who is calling the shots with NATO and the USA. If you think it is Biden, you are as demented as he is.
Yet, the idiotic Dems keep using these Hitler analogies. Could Hitler push a button and destroy the USA like Putin can? How much more shit is Putin supposed to take?
Now we just have to hear the dumb Dems come in here and say it is good we blew up a Russian bomber on Russian soil. Yeesh.Yep, the Dem. Dumb Asses, do not realize that American and the Brits. Are running the sophisticated weapons. Letting them fight in Ukraine is one thing, but attacking Russia is insane. Putin needs to to turn the Generals lose and end this.
Elvis 2008
07-31-24, 17:39
Satellite images of the Olenya airbase after the recent Ukrainian drone strike attempt.
As you can see, there is no visual confirmation of the Tu-22 M3 being hit or even traces of the drone flying in the vicinity of the airbase, despite the stories being spread by the Ukrainian Intelligence.
https://t.me/milinfolive/127108
Nothing came from Finland. Yes, drones can fly far. Hitting one such aircraft will be a major escalation, it's beyond the so called red lines. Yes, it's serious. When the previous time anyone here was at the nearest nuclear bunker?Good. Nothing would make me happier if that story were not true.
Satellite images of the Olenya airbase after the recent Ukrainian drone strike attempt.
As you can see, there is no visual confirmation of the Tu-22 M3 being hit or even traces of the drone flying in the vicinity of the airbase, despite the stories being spread by the Ukrainian Intelligence.
https://t.me/milinfolive/127108"As you can see" says Questner and links to a pro-Putin Telegram channel, which is as "reliable" as Questner himself.
Yeah, they are a joke but I am not laughing. This was literally something that scared the shit out of me today.
Go to around the 12 minute mark in this video. https://www.bitchute.com/video/9gHlVNJ1Pu9P/.
You got a former American colonel saying a Russian supersonic bomber was destroyed by drones and the drones were launched from Finland which is NATO country.Is there any bullshit story in this world that you and your Trump cult brethren wouldn't believe, sigh.
The Ukrainian drones flew 1,100 miles and successfully hit the Olenya airfield having damaged at least one Russian TU-22 M3 strategic bomber.
The end.
https://www.understandingwar.org/backgrounder/russian-offensive-campaign-assessment-july-27-2024
No Russian official ever said that, dumbass.
Do you know who actually said that? General Mark Milley. Google who he is if you don't know, and there's a lot you don't know.Before running away from that discussion with your tail between your legs.
Before running away from that discussion with your tail between your legs.You have an IQ of 22 so it is very easy to own you.
Here you go. This is the man who said 'Kiev in 3 days'. The Chairman of the you. S Chief of General staff, Mark Milley.
https://www.foxnews.com/us/gen-milley-says-kyiv-could-fall-within-72-hours-if-russia-decides-to-invade-ukraine-sources
You have an IQ of 22 so it is very easy to own you.
Here you go. This is the man who said 'Kiev in 3 days'. The Chairman of the you. S Chief of General staff, Mark Milley.
https://www.foxnews.com/us/gen-milley-says-kyiv-could-fall-within-72-hours-if-russia-decides-to-invade-ukraine-sourcesThat's fine. If there existed a self-respect measuring score, you'd get a cool number of zero.
Alexander Lukashenko, dictator of Belarus.
This war will last 3-4 days, at the mostVladimir Soloviev, top Putin's propogandist.
We'll raise an eyebrow and Ukraine will understand everything.Artem Sheinin, Russian propagandist and executive of the state-controlled Channel One.
And Kyiv will be taken so quickly -- 1.5-3 days Olga Skabyeeva, lead TV propagandist, AKA "Iron Doll of Putin TV".
Two days, then the fall of the city. Margarita Simonyan, media executive and head of the Russian state-controlled RT and the state-owned Rossiya Segodnya.
In a hot war we will defeat Ukraine in 2 days; what's there to defeat, Jesus -- that's Ukraine!And of course, the cherry on top:
Vladimir Putin:
If I wanted to, I could take Kiev in two weeks.https://twitter.com/i/status/1649011513259175937
https://time.com/3259699/putin-boast-kiev-2-weeks
Then again, why let the facts stay on the way of your narrative. Carry on.
As Russia advances on the New York front, litte rat Zelensky is gwetting desperate. But how desperate are Ukraine's female "refugees"? How amenable are they to be buggered and do "things" to each other? Are their prices holding up?
Vladimir Putin: If I wanted to, I could take Kiev in two weeks.
https://time.com/3259699/putin-boast-kiev-2-weeks
At the risk of being repetitive, the Office of the United Nations High Commissioner for Human Rights estimated the number of Ukrainian civilian deaths during the first two years of the war, to February 24,2024, at 10,582. The number of civilians in Gaza killed by Israel in 10 months is over 30,000. And Ukraine has almost 20 X the population of the Gaza Strip.
Russia must be going out of its way to avoid civilian casualties. Putin could capture Kiev in a lot less than 2 weeks if he really set his mind to it. Your estimate of 3 days is closer to the mark. It took 4 days from the time the USA dropped the bomb on Hiroshima for the Japanese to propose surrender. Russia has the largest nuclear armory in the world.
Beijing4987
08-03-24, 18:26
Hamas does not have sophisticated weapons to.
Shoot down jets bombing Gaza into rubble. But yes, Putin is trying to.
Make a point, regardless of the toll of blood & Treasure on his own country.
Russia must be going out of its way to avoid civilian casualties. Putin could capture Kiev in a lot less than 2 weeks if he really set his mind to it. Your estimate of 3 days is closer to the mark. It took 4 days from the time the USA dropped the bomb on Hiroshima for the Japanese to propose surrender. Russia has the largest nuclear armory in the world.While disagreeing with you politically on a number of issues, I used to considered you an intelligent and independent thinker. Well, too bad. Parroting such unfathomable falsehood after thousands of rapes, tortures, and executions of civilians in Bucha and other formerly occupied regions of Ukraine; after murdering tens of thousands of civilians in Mariupol; after knowing Russians' MO (bombing whole cities to the ground) is dumb, unconscionable, or both.
Your "nuclear" argument is also dumbfounded. First, yes, Russia has plenty of nuclear warheads, but it's not the only country that does (unlike America in 1945, so your analogy is faulty). Second, China -- the country Russia can't afford to upset -- has no interest in nuclear escalation. Third, god only knows how many Russia's warheads are fully operational, considering they're losing regular payloads over their own territory like pigeon droppings.
"Going out of its way," yeah, aha!
2 years after the horrors at Bucha, some families struggle to come to terms with atrocities
https://www.pbs.org/newshour/world/2-years-after-the-horrors-at-bucha-some-families-struggle-to-come-to-terms-with-atrocities
Russia obliterates Ukraines front-line towns with hacked bombs and expanded air base network
https://www.pbs.org/newshour/world/russia-obliterates-ukraines-front-line-towns-with-hacked-bombs-and-expanded-air-base-network
Russia's devastating glide bombs keep falling on its own territory
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2024/07/01/russia-glide-bomb-belgorod-fab
That's fine. If there existed a self-respect measuring score, you'd get a cool number of zero.
Alexander Lukashenko, dictator of Belarus.
Vladimir Soloviev, top Putin's propogandist.
Artem Sheinin, Russian propagandist and executive of the state-controlled Channel One.
Olga Skabyeeva, lead TV propagandist, AKA "Iron Doll of Putin TV".
Margarita Simonyan, media executive and head of the Russian state-controlled RT and the state-owned Rossiya Segodnya.
And of course, the cherry on top:
Vladimir Putin:
https://twitter.com/i/status/1649011513259175937
https://time.com/3259699/putin-boast-kiev-2-weeks
Then again, why let the facts stay on the way of your narrative. Carry on.Pay attention, dumbass. I said no Russian official ever said that. Lukashenko is not a Russian official. The links you posted are not proof that Putin ever said that, because he never did. Neither did any Russian government official. It's a lie the pathetic western mainstream media came up with that dipshits like you ran with.
At the risk of being repetitive, the Office of the United Nations High Commissioner for Human Rights estimated the number of Ukrainian civilian deaths during the first two years of the war, to February 24,2024, at 10,582. The number of civilians in Gaza killed by Israel in 10 months is over 30,000. And Ukraine has almost 20 X the population of the Gaza Strip.
Russia must be going out of its way to avoid civilian casualties. Putin could capture Kiev in a lot less than 2 weeks if he really set his mind to it. Your estimate of 3 days is closer to the mark. It took 4 days from the time the USA dropped the bomb on Hiroshima for the Japanese to propose surrender. Russia has the largest nuclear armory in the world.Exactly, Russia has gone out of their way to avoid targeting civilians. Look at what the Zionists are doing and have done in Gaza, they have FLATTENED the place, the topography of Gaza is like a pancake now. Kiev still has bars, restaurants and clubs open and people that can afford to are enjoying themselves.
Beijing4987
08-04-24, 01:51
That's right. Putin only occasionally bombs a church, hospital or school full of white orthodox Christians or threatens to use nuclear weapons.
That's right. Putin only occasionally bombs a church, hospital or school full of white orthodox Christians or threatens to use nuclear weapons.Got it. It's OK though to bomb mosques and hospitals full of brown Muslims thousands of miles away from your borders.
https://edition.cnn.com/2017/04/18/middleeast/human-rights-watch-report-syria-mosque-bombing/index.html
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5930682/
Or to indirectly kill millions with sanctions and the like.
https://watson.brown.edu/costsofwar/papers/summary
https://www.tni.org/en/article/how-to-kill-an-entire-country
That said, you have an interesting point. White orthodox Christians, who can speak the same language, are killing each other. It would be like the USA going to war against Canada, or France against Belgium. You would lay the blame entirely on Putin, and absolve the West. That's just not right. If not for neoconservatives and the like, Russia might today be a member of NATO and the EU. Yeah, maybe it would have a president who thinks more like Viktor Orban than Emmanuel Macron, but maybe that's not so bad. This war never should have happened.
While disagreeing with you politically on a number of issues, I used to considered you an intelligent and independent thinker. Well, too bad. Parroting such unfathomable falsehood after thousands of rapes, tortures, and executions of civilians in Bucha and other formerly occupied regions of Ukraine; after murdering tens of thousands of civilians in Mariupol; after knowing Russians' MO (bombing whole cities to the ground) is dumb, unconscionable, or both.
Your "nuclear" argument is also dumbfounded. First, yes, Russia has plenty of nuclear warheads, but it's not the only country that does (unlike America in 1945, so your analogy is faulty). Second, China -- the country Russia can't afford to upset -- has no interest in nuclear escalation. Third, god only knows how many Russia's warheads are fully operational, considering they're losing regular payloads over their own territory like pigeon droppings.
"Going out of its way," yeah, aha!
2 years after the horrors at Bucha, some families struggle to come to terms with atrocities
https://www.pbs.org/newshour/world/2-years-after-the-horrors-at-bucha-some-families-struggle-to-come-to-terms-with-atrocities
Russia obliterates Ukraines front-line towns with hacked bombs and expanded air base network
https://www.pbs.org/newshour/world/russia-obliterates-ukraines-front-line-towns-with-hacked-bombs-and-expanded-air-base-network
Russia's devastating glide bombs keep falling on its own territory
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2024/07/01/russia-glide-bomb-belgorod-fabI've taken another look at civilian deaths in Ukraine, and the number I quoted doesn't include people who are missing. If you add in those and other excess deaths you may be able to get to 30,000 deaths or more. Still, the number of combatant deaths is multiples of civilian deaths. And, with a population that's almost 20 X larger and a war that's gone on for 20 months longer, Ukraine may very well have suffered fewer civilian casualties than Gaza. Israel presumably isn't targeting civilians.
The probability Russia will use nuclear weapons is very, very low. But, obviously, it does have them. And if Russia just started carpet bombing civilians, the death toll would be much higher than it is.
The takeaway from your first link, which focuses on the death of a Ukrainian civilian combatant near Kyiv, is that war is hell. All the more reason to bring this to an end, which will require Ukraine to give up territory it's already lost. Hopefully Ukraine will have some guarantee of independence and security going forward. That would have been a likely outcome if the West and Ukraine had come to the negotiating table 6 to 18 months ago, when the two sides were in a stalemate. Now that Russia's making gains, maybe not. Too bad the neoconservatives in the West and the Ukrainian leadership weren't inclined to negotiate back then.
The takeaway from your second link is that Russia is trying to make Kharkiv unliveable for civilians by bombing. But then the third link kind of negates that. Apparently a good number of the Russian bombs are landing in Russia. In many instances, the Russians don't appear to be targeting civilians. Rather, their weapons aren't accurate.
Sorry for calling you a neoconservative. You're not. That term should only apply to politicians and people who work in the defense and foreign policy establishment. I try to only criticize politicians and the like and not fellow board members, and fucked up on that score.
Pay attention, dumbass. I said no Russian official ever said that. Lukashenko is not a Russian official. The links you posted are not proof that Putin ever said that, because he never did. Neither did any Russian government official. It's a lie the pathetic western mainstream media came up with that dipshits like you ran with.Every individual in my links is a Putin's OFFICIAL mouthpiece. Just because he doesn't OFFICIALLY have a Ministry of Propaganda like his idol Adolf, doesn't mean that his propagandists are not Russian OFFICIALS. They all are.
The final link I provided is for Putin's own words. Even his so-called "press-secretary" Peskov admitted he said that. Denying something that obvious and verifiable is just silly.
Finally, trying to cover your lack of reasoning skills with rudeness and personal insults never works. It only makes you look bad. If I were your supervisor, I'd fire you on the spot.
I've taken another look at civilian deaths in Ukraine, and the number I quoted doesn't include people who are missing. If you add in those and other excess deaths you may be able to get to 30,000 deaths or more. 30,000? Did you count Mariupol deaths in your estimate? Just add tens of thousands more.
We'll probably never know the exact number of Mariupol deaths because Russians are callously and feverishly building upon the bombed-out sites where thousands of bodies and body fragments are still lying entangled with the debris.
The takeaway from your first link, which focuses on the death of a Ukrainian civilian combatant near Kyiv, is that war is hell. No, not the "death". Call it what it was: cold-blooded KILLINGS of Ukrainian civilians, often whole families. They were NOT combatants. Let's be more precise in our definitions, shell we?
And no! "Hell" is awfully non-specific. What Russia is doing in Ukraine is one special hell, a never-ending string of war crimes and crimes against humanity.
The takeaway from your second link is that Russia is trying to make Kharkiv unliveable for civilians by bombing. But then the third link kind of negates that. Apparently a good number of the Russian bombs are landing in Russia. In many instances, the Russians don't appear to be targeting civilians. Rather, their weapons aren't accurate.First, it's not just Kharkiv. Every village, town or city that stands in their way is obliterated.
Second, while some of their weapons aren't accurate, others are plenty accurate. Gliding bombs are accurate. The KH-101 cruise missiles that they hit the children's hospital with is very accurate. You still can't get it into your head that that bombing was intentional, can you? Trying to find excuses where excuses simply don't exist.
That's right. Putin only occasionally bombs a church, hospital or school full of white orthodox Christians or threatens to use nuclear weapons.Gaza is not linked to Ukraine other than that monstrous and bloodthirsty Palestinian raid on Oct 7 (along with Israel's retaliation that followed) became a god's gift to Putin by taking some attention away from his own full-blown war.
In any case, this is a wrong forum to discuss Gaza or other areas of the world. You can always discuss those issues in the Israel or other related forums.
Gaza is not linked to Ukraine other than that monstrous and bloodthirsty Palestinian raid on Oct 7 (along with Israel's retaliation that followed) became a god's gift to Putin by taking some attention away from his own full-blown war.
In any case, this is a wrong forum to discuss Gaza or other areas of the world. You can always discuss those issues in the Israel or other related forums.This was supposed to be a reply to Tiny, not Beijing. Would appreciate some assistance from the mods.
Gaza is not linked to Ukraine other than that monstrous and bloodthirsty Palestinian raid on Oct 7 (along with Israel's retaliation that followed) became a god's gift to Putin by taking some attention away from his own full-blown war.
In any case, this is a wrong forum to discuss Gaza or other areas of the world. You can always discuss those issues in the Israel or other related forums.Come on Xpartan, don't do a Paulie and try to shut down the conversation because you disagree with me. You're better than that.
The neoconservatives have one set of rules for Vladimir Putin and another for Benjamin Netanyahu, George W. Bush, Tony Blair, Barrack Obama, and Donald Trump. They're collectively responsible for many more deaths than Putin.
My point is that the ratio of deaths of civilians to combatants in Ukraine is not out of line with other conflicts where western countries are involved. The ratio in the current conflict in Israel and Gaza may be around 2.4 civilians deaths to one combatant death. An estimate for the Iraq war was 3.4:1, although it would be much higher if you looked at excess deaths instead of casualties directly inflicted by the military and Iraqi resistance. Estimates for Vietnam range from 1:3 to 2:1. In any event, the civilian / combatant death ratio in Ukraine is less than any of those conflicts. It may be around 1:5 or 1:10. I don't believe Russia is trying to kill civilians. Yeah, shit will happen, like My Lai. But they're not engaged in anything like Dresden or Hiroshima.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civilian_casualty_ratio
This was supposed to be a reply to Tiny, not Beijing. Would appreciate some assistance from the mods.
I presume you mean you'd like the moderators to edit your post, not to censor mine?
Every individual in my links is a Putin's OFFICIAL mouthpiece. Just because he doesn't OFFICIALLY have a Ministry of Propaganda like his idol Adolf, doesn't mean that his propagandists are not Russian OFFICIALS. They all are.
The final link I provided is for Putin's own words. Even his so-called "press-secretary" Peskov admitted he said that. Denying something that obvious and verifiable is just silly.
Finally, trying to cover your lack of reasoning skills with rudeness and personal insults never works. It only makes you look bad. If I were your supervisor, I'd fire you on the spot.The link you posted alleges Putin said 'Kiev in 2 weeks' if he wanted to way back in 2014, not in 2022. And there is no evidence he did even say that, it has never been proved. Plus, if Putin did want to take Kiev back in 2014, he could have done it easily in 2 weeks because AFU were much, much weaker back in 2014. It was after 2014 that NATO started arming and training AFU. Your dumbass wouldn't know about that. So don't post lies here because they will quickly be debunked by me.
30,000? Did you count Mariupol deaths in your estimate? Just add tens of thousands more..Yes.
Here's a UN estimate for all of Ukraine, 10,582 civilian deaths, with a caveat that real numbers could be higher:
https://www.statista.com/statistics/1293492/ukraine-war-casualties/
Estimates citied in Wikipedia for total civilian deaths, which include Mariupol:
1. 11,000+ killed (confirmed) 24 Feb 2022 to 31 Dec 2023.
11,000 missing 24 Feb 2022 to 30 Nov 2023.
2. 11,284 killed 24 February 2022 to 30 June 2024.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_Russo-Ukrainian_War
You appear to be correct, that civilian deaths in Mariupol may dwarf those in other places. The United Nations estimate was 1,348 civilians, but "the true death toll was likely thousands higher. " A Human Rights Watch study indicated there were at least 8,034 excess deaths in Mariupol. And yes, there are estimates thrown out by Ukrainian television, the Mariupol mayor and others that deaths may have been in the range of 20,000 to 27,000. One outlier which I seriously doubt is 87,000.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Mariupol
I don't see how you could realistically get to 45,000 for all of Ukraine, which although tragic, is small compared to combatant deaths. And suspect the real number is less than 30,000.
Painting Putin as Hitler and Russians as bloodthirsty savages is not realistic. It is a way to prolong the war, which is the goal of the neoconservatives. Again, I don't mean you, but rather the military and political elite.
No, not the "death". Call it what it was: cold-blooded KILLINGS of Ukrainian civilians, often whole families. They were NOT combatants. Let's be more precise in our definitions, shell we?
You're saying the subject of the story was not a civilian combatant? But yes, it's fine to describe his death as a killing. It's fine to say George W. Bush and his successors, including Barrack Obama, were cold blooded killers too.
Come on Xpartan, don't do a Paulie and try to shut down the conversation because you disagree with me. You're better than that. Maybe you're better than to cowardly attack someone that left the conversation many months ago, but I don't know. I'm inside riding out a tropical storm and happened to check in here today.
All I've said is that you might do well to spend less time arguing for Putin over the internet. That especially applies if you are on in years where remaining time is more precious. I've also made the point that you are late to the party. Your whataboutisms regarding past US actions were answered ad nauseam starting two years ago by myself and others. I'm not doing it over again for a Johnny come lately that migrated over from the opinions forum. However for the record, I and the ICC disagree with your belief that Russia hasn't been targeting civilians. And since you like Wikipedia so much, here's a couple of links for the Cliff Note's versions. Scroll to the bottom for source citations.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attacks_on_civilians_in_the_Russian_invasion_of_Ukraine
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Criminal_Court_arrest_warrants_for_Russian_figures
That was easy. Didn't take me ten minutes. Wink.
Painting Putin as Hitler and Russians as bloodthirsty savages is not realistic. It is a way to prolong the war, which is the goal of the neoconservatives. Again, I don't mean you, but rather the military and political elite. You're saying the subject of the story was not a civilian combatant? But yes, it's fine to describe his death as a killing. It's fine to say George W. Bush and his successors, including Barrack Obama, were cold blooded killers too.Comparing someone like Putin, a cold blooded murderer who murders all his opposition and sometimes slowly, jails journalists, who starts a war with his neighbor that he claims has no right to exist based on a fanciful spin on history, who deports and indoctrinates their children, kills off their civilian populations while hiding the bodies, etc. To post 9/11 US presidents is absurd. And of course it all comes seasoned with the well worn cookie cutter buzz words and "deep state" conspiracy theories, that even those with barely a high school education can parrot online. You're actually a lightweight when it comes to making this brand of arguments. If one wants to just sharpen their iron they could find better.
https://effectiviology.com/false-equivalence/
Nowadays I treat it like if I was seated on a bar stool listening to this from the guy sitting next to me. I go find a different seat. Though I and others have hammered it out thoroughly here in the past. Any here interesting can check the post history of this thread going back to the Spring of 2022.
Come on Xpartan, don't do a Paulie and try to shut down the conversation because you disagree with me. You're better than that.
The neoconservatives have one set of rules for Vladimir Putin and another for Benjamin Netanyahu, George W. Bush, Tony Blair, Barrack Obama, and Donald Trump. They're collectively responsible for many more deaths than Putin. How am I trying to shut down the conversation? By pointing out that this is a forum dedicated to Ukraine rather than the last 24 years of the US and Middle East warring history?
If you really -- and I mean, really -- do not understand the difference between Israel's war on Hamas and savage Putin's war against Ukraine, start another thread in the Israel forum and I'll meet you there. Otherwise, it feels like a false analogy fallacy, which, as you probably know, is a favorite Russian propaganda trick designed to dilute a topic by claiming false equivalence between events that have nothing to do with each other except for one word: WAR.
I don't believe Russia is trying to kill civilians. Yeah, shit will happen, like My Lai. Here you go: You don't believe! That certainly trumps facts and reason. Why didn't you say so before?
Yes.
Here's a UN estimate for all of Ukraine, 10,582 civilian deaths, with a caveat that real numbers could be higher:
https://www.statista.com/statistics/1293492/ukraine-war-casualties/
Estimates citied in Wikipedia for total civilian deaths, which include Mariupol:
1. 11,000+ killed (confirmed) 24 Feb 2022 to 31 Dec 2023.
11,000 missing 24 Feb 2022 to 30 Nov 2023.
2. 11,284 killed 24 February 2022 to 30 June 2024.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_Russo-Ukrainian_War
You appear to be correct, that civilian deaths in Mariupol may dwarf those in other places. The United Nations estimate was 1,348 civilians, but "the true death toll was likely thousands higher. " A Human Rights Watch study indicated there were at least 8,034 excess deaths in Mariupol. And yes, there are estimates thrown out by Ukrainian television, the Mariupol mayor and others that deaths may have been in the range of 20,000 to 27,000. One outlier which I seriously doubt is 87,000. Doubt whatever you want. Just do me a little favor. Turn off your Russophilia for 5 fucking minutes and read this:
https://apnews.com/article/russia-ukraine-war-erasing-mariupol-499dceae43ed77f2ebfe750ea99b9ad9
And if you can spend a little more time, watch 20 Days in Mariupol:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gvAyykRvPBo
Painting Putin as Hitler and Russians as bloodthirsty savages is not realistic. It is a way to prolong the war, which is the goal of the neoconservatives. Again, I don't mean you, but rather the military and political elite.You're right somewhat. Putin is not Hitler. Hitler wasn't a coward. Hitler wasn't a thief. His Operation Barbarossa was far better thought out than Putin's "strategy" to throw lots of shit in all directions to see what sticks.
You're saying the subject of the story was not a civilian combatant? But yes, it's fine to describe his death as a killing. It's fine to say George W. Bush and his successors, including Barrack Obama, were cold blooded killers too.I have no idea what you're talking about. Hundreds of civilians were murdered in Bucha alone. Men, women, children. Sometimes whole families. Did you even read the article beyond the first 3 paragraphs?
Although, I keep forgetting that you don't believe anyway.
The link you posted alleges Putin said 'Kiev in 2 weeks' if he wanted to way back in 2014, not in 2022. And there is no evidence he did even say that, it has never been proved. Plus, if Putin did want to take Kiev back in 2014, he could have done it easily in 2 weeks because AFU were much, much weaker back in 2014. It was after 2014 that NATO started arming and training AFU. Your dumbass wouldn't know about that. So don't post lies here because they will quickly be debunked by me.In my previous post I stated that you were a lousy PROPACONDOM (as your fellow Russians call you guys) because all you do is lie, then double and triple down on your lies; and these are not well-constructed, solid, plausible lies. Your lies are so foolish and ridiculous that a 10-second Google search can reveal them. That's lazy and unprofessional. I thought, you should certainly must do better. Don't your bosses want people to believe them?
I was wrong. Please accept my apologies.
You're not at fault here. You just keep up with Russia's venerable traditions. The thing is, Russia lies every time it gets caught in the act. Russia just doesn't care. When you downed MH17, when you doped your athletes, when you poisoned Navalny, when you poisoned the Scripals in Salisbury and got caught every single time -- what did you guys do? That's right, you kept lying.
Lying no matter what.
I thought it was silly on your part to deny that Putin said if he'd wanted to, he could've taken Kyiv in two weeks.
I mean this quote was all over the world, in all major media, and what do you know -- no protests, no demands for retractions!
Putin's talking lapdog Peskov confirmed that yes, the boss did say that.
Putin himself never claimed he hadn't.
And only you keep holding the last line of defense.
Bravo!
when you poisoned NavalnyLike I said previously, it is so easy to own your dumbass that believes all the lies fed to you by the collective west.
Navalny died of natural causes. Owned, again. Stop embarrassing yourself.
https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/navalnys-team-says-death-certificate-says-he-died-natural-causes-2024-02-22/
John Clayton
08-07-24, 15:08
In my previous post I stated that you were a lousy PROPACONDOM...You're not at fault here...Yeah, don't be too hard on the guy -- it's his job. It is a lousy, meaningless, stupid job, but someone is paying him to do it. How dispiriting it must be to have to crank out this futile bullshit; however, it is his sole source of revenue. The real question is why does this forum allow this kind of spam? What a waste of bandwidth.
Yeah, don't be too hard on the guy -- it's his job. It is a lousy, meaningless, stupid job, but someone is paying him to do it. How dispiriting it must be to have to crank out this futile bullshit; however, it is his sole source of revenue. The real question is why does this forum allow this kind of spam? What a waste of bandwidth.You can't debate me. Walk on home, boy.
Yeah, don't be too hard on the guy -- it's his job. It is a lousy, meaningless, stupid job, but someone is paying him to do it. How dispiriting it must be to have to crank out this futile bullshit; however, it is his sole source of revenue. The real question is why does this forum allow this kind of spam? What a waste of bandwidth.Agreed. When he just started out, his fallacies were long-winded, passionate, heated, fiery even. Today he's all snaps, barks and snarls. The pay can't be good.
John Clayton
08-08-24, 01:41
You can't debate me. Walk on home, boy."Debate"? It's hardly possible or meaningful in this forum. However, I do have an interest in you as a person. Primarily, where do you live? What city? What are your other sources of revenue? What are your future plans?
As I've written previously, Russia is notorious for the skill and efficacy of their propaganda. Russia's economy is miniscule and yet they punch far above their class. Look at some recent political disasters in the West (e.g., US election of 2016, Brexit, the disinformation surrounding Covid vaccines, the extended hold of US arms to Ukraine) which derive from masterful Russian propaganda. I really admire the effort and the skill. You (meaning Russians) have achieved dramatic results with relatively little effort and resources. California alone has an economy twice as large as Russia's. Three US states (California, Texas and NY) individually have economies larger than Russia's. Imagine if New York had the same kind of organized and skilled propaganda as Russia -- absurd, right?
Why do I ask about your future plans? Ernest Hemingway wrote in "The Sun Also Rises", 'How did you go bankrupt?' "Two ways. Gradually, then suddenly." Nations fail in the same way. Everything looks solid, then poof! I wonder if you're made any plans against the collapse of the Russian Federation?
As a matter of general interest, how are you being instructed to deal with the Ukrainian incursion in Kursk Oblast?
"Debate"? It's hardly possible or meaningful in this forum. However, I do have an interest in you as a person. Primarily, where do you live? What city? What are your other sources of revenue? What are your future plans?
As I've written previously, Russia is notorious for the skill and efficacy of their propaganda. Russia's economy is miniscule and yet they punch far above their class. Look at some recent political disasters in the West (e.g., US election of 2016, Brexit, the disinformation surrounding Covid vaccines, the extended hold of US arms to Ukraine) which derive from masterful Russian propaganda. I really admire the effort and the skill. You (meaning Russians) have achieved dramatic results with relatively little effort and resources. California alone has an economy twice as large as Russia's. Three US states (California, Texas and NY) individually have economies larger than Russia's. Imagine if New York had the same kind of organized and skilled propaganda as Russia -- absurd, right?
Why do I ask about your future plans? Ernest Hemingway wrote in "The Sun Also Rises", 'How did you go bankrupt?' "Two ways. Gradually, then suddenly." Nations fail in the same way. Everything looks solid, then poof! I wonder if you're made any plans against the collapse of the Russian Federation?
As a matter of general interest, how are you being instructed to deal with the Ukrainian incursion in Kursk Oblast?Blood Red was active in the Dubai and other forums years before February, 2022. He's a monger or, as Jackson used to say, "sport fucker," not a Russian agent.
Good to see you're debating substance, even if ad hominem, instead of arguing that I shouldn't post in this thread because I've never been to Ukraine.
Maybe you're better than to cowardly attack someone that left the conversation many months ago, but I don't know. I'm inside riding out a tropical storm and happened to check in here today.The definition of "cowardly" is not "adjective used to describe someone I disagree with."
All I've said is that you might do well to spend less time arguing for Putin over the internet. That especially applies if you are on in years where remaining time is more precious. I've also made the point that you are late to the party. Your whataboutisms regarding past US actions were answered ad nauseam starting two years ago by myself and others. I'm not doing it over again for a Johnny come lately that migrated over from the opinions forum. However for the record, I and the ICC disagree with your belief that Russia hasn't been targeting civilians. And since you like Wikipedia so much, here's a couple of links for the Cliff Note's versions. Scroll to the bottom for source citations.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attacks_on_civilians_in_the_Russian_invasion_of_UkraineYour link says "As of 2024, the attacks had resulted in the UN-documented deaths of between 11,000 and estimated 40,000 dead civilians." How is that inconsistent with what I wrote? I don't believe the Ukrainian estimate that "only 3% of all Russian missiles, drones and bombs hit military targets, while 97% hit civilian targets." Throw out all the anecdotes you want, the ratio of deaths of civilians to combatants is lower than in Gaza in 2023/2024, Vietnam, or Iraq.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Criminal_Court_arrest_warrants_for_Russian_figures
That was easy. Didn't take me ten minutes. Wink.
Comparing someone like Putin, a cold blooded murderer who murders all his opposition and sometimes slowly, jails journalists, who starts a war with his neighbor that he claims has no right to exist based on a fanciful spin on history, who deports and indoctrinates their children, kills off their civilian populations while hiding the bodies, etc. To post 9/11 US presidents is absurd. And of course it all comes seasoned with the well worn cookie cutter buzz words and "deep state" conspiracy theories, that even those with barely a high school education can parrot online. You're actually a lightweight when it comes to making this brand of arguments. If one wants to just sharpen their iron they could find better.
https://effectiviology.com/false-equivalence/
Again, since Putin was elected president in 2000, a lot more people have died as a result of military and anti-terrorist actions initiated by the USA than by Russia. Should we start putting ex USA Presidents in jail too? Your argument is no, I guess because they're men of fine character. Torture of people captured by the USA in places like Guantanamo and Middle Eastern countries never occurred. No president ever sanctioned the killing of an American by drone in a foreign country. Killing hundreds of thousands with sanctions and disease is perfectly fine. As is occupying a country thousands of miles away where the USA has no strategic interests. If the USA weren't sticking its nose and guns where they don't belong, there wouldn't have been a terrorist problem.
The bigger concern is that painting Putin and other Russians as genocidal mass murders who will someday be subject to justice is no way to end a conflict that's killing hundreds of thousands of people. That may be fine with neoconservative politicians, who want this to go on and on, and with some of the posters in this thread. But it's not helpful for ordinary Ukrainians and Russians. Or the millions of people in Africa, the Middle East and other places who depend on resources and grain from Russia and Ukraine.
Nowadays I treat it like if I was seated on a bar stool listening to this from the guy sitting next to me. I go find a different seat. Though I and others have hammered it out thoroughly here in the past. Any here interesting can check the post history of this thread going back to the Spring of 2022.
Yeah, well look at what you and others were saying back as far as November, 2022. Since then the lines of control have barely moved, and yet Ukraine was always on the cusp of winning the war. But, but the mass murderers need to be brought to justice! Ukraine can't negotiate! Well, since then hundreds of thousands have died and they'll go on dying until this comes to an end.
In other words, you gentlemen have been wrong about Ukraine's prospects for victory, and you still are.
How am I trying to shut down the conversation? By pointing out that this is a forum dedicated to Ukraine rather than the last 24 years of the US and Middle East warring history?
If you really -- and I mean, really -- do not understand the difference between Israel's war on Hamas and savage Putin's war against Ukraine, start another thread in the Israel forum and I'll meet you there. Otherwise, it feels like a false analogy fallacy, which, as you probably know, is a favorite Russian propaganda trick designed to dilute a topic by claiming false equivalence between events that have nothing to do with each other except for one word: WAR.Ok, we can make comparisons between Russia and Israel and the USA in the Israel thread, but not here. Fair enough.
Here you go: You don't believe! That certainly trumps facts and reason. Why didn't you say so before?
Doubt whatever you want. Just do me a little favor. Turn off your Russophilia for 5 fucking minutes and read this:
https://apnews.com/article/russia-ukraine-war-erasing-mariupol-499dceae43ed77f2ebfe750ea99b9ad9I don't believe over 75,000 civilians died in Mariupol. For the sake of argument, say the AP article is substantively correct. What's your solution? More death and carnage until Ukraine is wiped off the map? Russia's not going let this go unless it can exit in a way that saves face. Short of sending NATO troops into Ukraine, I don't see how this ends the way you appear to think it will. And nobody wants to see the world's largest nuclear powers fighting face-to-face.
And if you can spend a little more time, watch 20 Days in Mariupol:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gvAyykRvPBoThat's 1-1/2 hours long. Please ask Paulie to watch this and summarize it. He's got the time, he's retired.
You're right somewhat. Putin is not Hitler. Hitler wasn't a coward. Hitler wasn't a thief. His Operation Barbarossa was far better thought out than Putin's "strategy" to throw lots of shit in all directions to see what sticks.You may wish to consider whether your analogies are wilder than mine. Please see reply to Paulie below. Do you think Putin is going to end this if he thinks he's going to be prosecuted like Germans at Nuremberg? While you and I don't matter, the western politicians and Ukrainians who make similar claims are preventing this conflict from coming to an end.
I have no idea what you're talking about. Hundreds of civilians were murdered in Bucha alone. Men, women, children. Sometimes whole families. Did you even read the article beyond the first 3 paragraphs?
Although, I keep forgetting that you don't believe anyway.I read it twice and that's what I got out of it. I'm not reading it three times.
Blood Red was active in the Dubai and other forums years before February, 2022. He's a monger or, as Jackson used to say, "sport fucker," not a Russian agent.So a monger can't be a paid troll working for the Russian government? What does one thing have to do with another?
Aren't you aware that Dubai is a favorite playground for well-to-do Russians? That was always the case, and today 100 times so since they're not welcome almost anywhere else?
The real tell, however, is not Dubai. It's his unquestionable admiration for Russia and adoration for Putin. Normal people don't talk like that. Even Russian "Zetniks" (look it up) can be critical of Putin and his army.
Him? Never!
That's some loyalty, LOL.
I don't believe over 75,000 civilians died in Mariupol. Well, like I said I can't help you with "beliefs".
For the sake of argument, say the AP article is substantively correct. What's your solution? Solution? You're changing the subject again. I just reacted to your wacky and laughable statement that Putin goes out of his way to spare civilians.
While in reality he goes out of his way to target them.
You may wish to consider whether your analogies are wilder than mine. Please see reply to Paulie below. Do you think Putin is going to end this if he thinks he's going to be prosecuted like Germans at Nuremberg? While you and I don't matter, the western politicians and Ukrainians who make similar claims are preventing this conflict from coming to an end.Putin won't get to be prosecuted, and he knows that. He won't survive the end of his regime. It's going to be a Ceausescu way: Arrested, sentenced, shot by his own henchmen. All in a matter of hours, with "sentencing" being optional (who needs these formalities, after all?
So Putin has a very solid reason to keep waging the war. As long as he can, he lives.
The question is how long he can. The economy is already circling the drain, new recruits are hard to find (despite the mind-blowing bonuses), and they lose over 30,000 troops a month with almost nothing to show for it.
I read it twice and that's what I got out of it. I'm not reading it three times.Twice? And you still can't find the passages about civilians murdered by Putin's butchers in cold blood? Did you know that right after the discovery of the "cleansing", Putin awarded them the title of Guards?
Well, if you need help, I can always paste the quotes here. Just ask.
Good to see you're debating substance, even if ad hominem, instead of arguing that I shouldn't post in this thread because I've never been to Ukraine. I actually agree with you on one point. These are free for all threads, so the admins can keep the relevant threads on topic and clean. Talk about whatever you want, while mocking you for migrating around these threads going in circles writing essay after essay for months on end pitching the selfsame "deep state" conspiracy theories and whataboutisms / deflections is allowed. In this case, the "give peace a chance" argument by appeasing a shameless murderous dictator whose forwarding a genocide in Ukraine has been made by you dozens of times already. You've seen the legion of responses which haven't changed. I think you are a fool wasting the world's most precious commodity, time, while it's fair to wonder about your mental stability at this point.
Yeah, well look at what you and others were saying back as far as November, 2022. Since then the lines of control have barely moved, and yet Ukraine was always on the cusp of winning the war. But, but the mass murderers need to be brought to justice! Ukraine can't negotiate! Well, since then hundreds of thousands have died and they'll go on dying until this comes to an end. In other words, you gentlemen have been wrong about Ukraine's prospects for victory, and you still are.If anyone here said that Ukraine was "on the cusp of winning the war," then find the post, quote it, and respond to it. If you don't, then we can assume it doesn't exist, and that you are paraphrasing for your benefit, ie. Straw man. Ukraine has had some good moments that were mostly defensive in nature, but the counter offensive did stall. Reasons for that have been discussed ad nauseam while some excellent articles were linked.
Ukraine policy is difficult, but appeasement, by rewriting history and minimizing and sugarcoating Russia's atrocities and goals, while promoting an unfavorable peace, which just gives the invaders time to regroup and go again isn't the answer. And your false equivocations with post 9/11 US actions are not only no help but a joke, that make you look like a fool that needs to go find a new country to live in if you are among us.
Your reply to Xpartan.
That's 1-1/2 hours long. Please ask Paulie to watch this and summarize it. He's got the time, he's retired. At least you said please, but you are the one with all the time to waste chasing your tail. Compare your post count to mine for 2024 and I'll rest my case on that. The real problem of course is that Mariupol is a real affront to your line of thinking.
Man up, watch it, and respond without misconstruing it or running back to whataboutism mode and "deep state" nonsense. I'm asking a lot, I know.
Thanks for mentioning my retirement. It's amazing, time for pursuit of hobbies, day trips to the beach and exploration of small Latin American towns, and once in a while the south of France.
Dropping the mic.
Blood Red was active in the Dubai and other forums years before February, 2022. He's a monger or, as Jackson used to say, "sport fucker," not a Russian agent.Since you claim that Russia hasn't targeted civilians, hasn't deported and indoctrinated Ukrainian children, you might as well stick up for this guy who claims Alexi Navalny "died of natural causes. " No one can say you aren't consistent. And yea, I know these are very serious matters, but you bring it to the point of hilarity. The incompetence displayed is what invites the mockery. Maybe the clown is from Australia I don't know. Are plenty of people there dumb enough to believe that kind of nonsense as well. The US doesn't have the market cornered.
P.S. Dropping Jackson's name as an aside doesn't help you.
I don't believe Russia is trying to kill civilians.Do you now see why your aren't worthy of a serious discussion? Mariupol? Bucha? Etc, too bad. Too bad all these Ukrainian children have been deported and brainwashed. Too bad the ICC is picking on little Vlad. Too bad a young, healthy Navalny happened to get poisoned then soon die "of natural causes" in Siberia, after a long list of similar circumstances with other opponents. Poor pitiful Russia. "Give peace a chance. " All you deserve is mockery, then come whining when you get it. I have as much sympathy for you as I do Russia.
Dear Xpartan and Paulie "Ad Hominem" 97,
I do not believe you are mentally-unstable fools, as Paulie describes me. Rather, you're sadly misguided by the main stream media, including Fox News and the Wall Street Journal, and your neoconservative instincts. The truth lies somewhere between what you believe and what Blood Red says. I'd put a higher probability on the war ending the way he says it will rather than the way you say Xpartan, although both are pretty damn unlikely.
Blood Red knows more about the former Soviet republics than anyone here.
Your friend,
Tiny
Dear Tiny,
Thanks for the 100th helping of RF propaganda and otherwise sympathies. And thanks to them for disseminating it to the world, not only through their people but various online influencers, that take up the mantle and declare it facts and news. Since I'm re-invigorating my hobbies in retirement, I plan to tune into Radio Havana Cuba tonight over shortwave for updates on Venezuela. They after all, like Moscow, have a long history of getting out the real story. Your inspiration has been invaluable.
Your friend,
Paulie.
P.S. By extension I want to thank the many dentally challenged at Trump rallies that pass along not only this, but varieties of other truths they are privy to, not only though the grapevine but through their social media accounts and other online "sources" that specialize in truth. These, who are always quick to remind us we are reading in the wrong places are the real heroes here.
Seems like the Kiev regime is getting more and more desperate with the incursion into Kursk. As they say, desperate people do desperate things, and Ukraine is desperate to say the least at this point in time.
"Debate"? It's hardly possible or meaningful in this forum. However, I do have an interest in you as a person. Primarily, where do you live? What city? What are your other sources of revenue? What are your future plans?
As I've written previously, Russia is notorious for the skill and efficacy of their propaganda. Russia's economy is miniscule and yet they punch far above their class. Look at some recent political disasters in the West (e.g., US election of 2016, Brexit, the disinformation surrounding Covid vaccines, the extended hold of US arms to Ukraine) which derive from masterful Russian propaganda. I really admire the effort and the skill. You (meaning Russians) have achieved dramatic results with relatively little effort and resources. California alone has an economy twice as large as Russia's. Three US states (California, Texas and NY) individually have economies larger than Russia's. Imagine if New York had the same kind of organized and skilled propaganda as Russia -- absurd, right?
Why do I ask about your future plans? Ernest Hemingway wrote in "The Sun Also Rises", 'How did you go bankrupt?' "Two ways. Gradually, then suddenly." Nations fail in the same way. Everything looks solid, then poof! I wonder if you're made any plans against the collapse of the Russian Federation?
As a matter of general interest, how are you being instructed to deal with the Ukrainian incursion in Kursk Oblast?I currently reside in Dubai. I'm an electrical engineer from the you. S by degree. My future plans are to keep spreading the truth. The Kursk incursion will have no impact on the final outcome of this war, which is a Russian victory. Write that down. Have a nice day.
I currently reside in Dubai. Might not be a lie.
I'm an electrical engineer Might not be a lie.
from the USTotal lie.
My future plans are to keep spreading the truth. Great comedy here!
The Kursk incursion will have no impact on the final outcome of this warRight, because Ukrainians are "desperate", LOL.
Putins Face Betrays Russian Panic Over Ukrainian Invasion Shock
https://www.thedailybeast.com/putins-face-betrays-russian-panic-over-ukrainian-invasion-shock
Video shows bodies on burnt-out Russian trucks in Kursk region as Ukrainian cross-border assaults rage
https://www.cnn.com/2024/08/09/europe/russia-lipetsk-kursk-ukraine-zelensky-intl/index.html
Panic among residents in Kursk, villages are being emptied, thousands of residents are evacuated
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BDC-Yn-J59U
a Russian victory. Write that down. Have a nice day.Pure fantasy. The fate of Russia will be decided by the Russians, but the heroic Ukrainian resistance is going to give it a crucial nudge.
The Second Russian Civil War is coming.
God save us from seeing a Russian revolt, senseless and merciless.A. Pushkin.
I currently reside in Dubai. I'm an electrical engineer from the you. S by degree. My future plans are to keep spreading the truth. The Kursk incursion will have no impact on the final outcome of this war, which is a Russian victory. Write that down. Have a nice day.Are you a U.S. citizen? If so, thank goodness you weren't around in the 1950's. If you'd gotten caught saying positive things about the Soviet Union, you might have been hauled before McCarthy's House Un-American Activities Committee. Or, if some of our posters' wild ideas about your identity were true, strapped to an electric chair like Ethel Rosenberg. Ethel's execution wasn't a pretty sight. She wouldn't die. They had to shock her two more times after the first try to kill her. At the end, smoke rose from her head.
Ethel was convicted by perjured testimony. She may have been innocent, and certainly her alleged crimes didn't justify the death penalty. Offered a deal by prosecutors, she said, "By asking us to repudiate the truth of our innocence, the Government admits its own doubts concerning our guilt. Our respect for truth, conscience and human dignity is not for sale. Justice is not some bauble to be sold to the highest bidder. " She left behind two young boys.
In the end, she was a stronger defender of American values than Joseph McCarthy or Roy Cohn, and many present-day rabid anti-Russian neoconservative politicians.
This article is dated but shows what I think is happening.
https://www.newsweek.com/2022/08/12/putin-targeting-civilians-ukraine-what-evidence-shows-1729463.html
The Russians aren't intentionally targeting civilians with bombs and artillery. There actually are military targets near where the bombs hit. It's just that their missiles, artillery and bombs aren't accurate. Russia doesn't help its case in certain instances, like the excuse for the 22 civilians killed in an apartment building in Serhiivka. Russia claimed the Ukrainians staged the incident, when in reality the Russians were targeting an ammunition depot two miles away. If they'd fessed up, they would have looked incompetent.
In at least one case, a hospital in Vuhledar, the Ukrainians probably accidentally launched the missile that caused the deaths and blamed it on Russia.
So what about Bucha? That was a travesty. But certainly it's not unique. The USA has committed many war crimes, including My Lai which was similar in size to Bucha. I don't see how you can justify prosecuting Putin for war crimes in Ukraine if you're going to let Lyndon Baines Johnson and George W. Bush off scot free.
I'll withhold comment on Mariupol until I watch Xpartan's hour-and-a-half long video. Which may be never.
P.S. By extension I want to thank the many dentally challenged at Trump rallies that pass along not only this, but varieties of other truths they are privy to, not only though the grapevine but through their social media accounts and other online "sources" that specialize in truth. These, who are always quick to remind us we are reading in the wrong places are the real heroes here.
Paulie, Please see reply in American Politics thread
I don't know how military experts feel about the last week's events, but I personally salute Russia and its mighty leader for their generosity. I mean, to yield 1,000 square kilometers in a week and provide AFU with a thousand POWs for the Ukraine's "Exchange Fund" -- one has to be a truly benevolent fella with a big, throbbing heart. Bottomless even.
This good-will gesture goes way beyond multiple Russian retreats of 2022, especially since Russia's sacred land hasn't seen foreign invaders in the last 80 years.
Once again: kudos!
In at least one case, a hospital in Vuhledar, the Ukrainians probably accidentally launched the missile that caused the deaths and blamed it on Russia.Not true, show the evidence. It was the Russians.
So what about Bucha? That was a travesty. But certainly it's not unique. The USA has ... blah blah USA blah blah blah USAClassic Russian misdirection. This is about the war crimes Russia is doing. Want to talk about USA, go to the USA forums.
The Russian war crimes are horrific, and says everything about the mentality of the people. This is why Ukraine will win, since living under those monsters is not an option.
Not true, show the evidence. It was the Russians.It's in the link. I'll quote here. Please note the writer, William M. Arkin, is pro-Ukrainian. He's penned pieces like "Moscow's Bloody March to Defeat," "As Ukraine Gets Closer to Victory, Nuclear War Gets Closer Too," "For Vladimir Putin, This is the Beginning of the End", "How Putin Botched the Ukraine War and Put Russia's Military Might at Risk," and "Yes, Ukraine Will Win the War. ".
He wrote those and a number of other similar articles in 2022 and early 2023, before it became obvious that this was turning into a bloody stalemate that Ukraine wasn't going to win.
Here's the excerpt:
A hospital in Vuhledar
Since Russia invaded Ukraine in February, human rights monitors have been scrupulous in documenting Russian conduct. On the first day of attacks, for example, Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch accused Russia of damaging a hospital in Vuhledar (aka Ugledar), a coal mining town 50 miles north of Mariupol in southeastern Ukraine.
At about 10:30 in the morning on February 24, a short-range Tochka missile (NATO SS-21 Scarab) landed in front of the Central City Hospital, killing four and injuring 10 civilians. Human Rights Watch focused on the missile's cluster bomb warhead with 50 submunitions, pointing out the international convention banning the use of such weapons.
Establishing the facts in this and other cases is a meticulous process: taking witness testimony, documenting who was involved, establishing the weapons used, the damage, and deaths and injuries to civilians. In this case, Human Rights Watch interviewed workers at the hospital and collected photographic evidence. A photo of the nose cone of the missile, widely posted on social media, was the basis for determining the type of weapon used.
Amnesty International said the Russian ballistic missile strike on the hospital was "verified" by its Evidence Lab. "The Russian military has shown a blatant disregard for civilian lives by using ballistic missiles and other explosive weapons with wide area effects in densely populated areas," said Agns Callamard, the organization's Secretary General. "Some of these attacks may be war crimes. ".
But there is a major problem with that narrative. Tochka is owned by both Russia and Ukraine, and though observers seem content to assume that Russia attacked Vuhledar, U.S. intelligence says that Russia probably did not fire a Tochka missile until March 6 about a week into the war.
Ukraine, on the other hand, is known to have fired Tochka missiles on the first day against a target in Kirovske in occupied Donetsk. Over the next 72 hours, Ukraine fired more Tochkas at Russian forces and against two airbases located in Russia itself, one at Millerovo and the other at Taganrog. On March 1, Ukraine also hit a Russian naval ship docked in Berdiansk harbor with a Tochka missile.
That photo of the nose cone, the one that identified the weapon that landed in Vuhledar on February 24? There is no photographic evidence that places it in Vuhledar, nor is there anything that proves that it is Russian.
The town of Vuhledar, in context, also proves to be an unlikely target. The Ukraine General Staff did not report the town or its surroundings attacked until March 13, raising the question whether it was an intended Russian target on February 24, when all of Russia's long-range attacks were highly choreographed.
On March 11, the independent investigative collective Bellingcat stated that Vuhledar was the only "confirmed example of this particular cluster munition type being used" in Ukraine, further raising questions regarding who fired the missile that landed there. In other words, it was most likely a Ukrainian Tochka missile fired somewhere to the east, which failed in flight and landed in Vuhledar, causing the damage and deaths..
https://www.newsweek.com/2022/08/12/putin-targeting-civilians-ukraine-what-evidence-shows-1729463.html
Classic Russian misdirection. This is about the war crimes Russia is doing. Want to talk about USA, go to the USA forums.
The Russian war crimes are horrific, and says everything about the mentality of the people. This is why Ukraine will win, since living under those monsters is not an option.You asked me to show the evidence. And I did. Well then, instead of trying to shut down the debate, please explain why Putin should be tried for war crimes in Ukraine, while American presidents Lyndon B Johnson and George W. Bush should not have been, in Vietnam and the Middle East, respectively. Feel free to reply in the American Politics thread if you wish, like I did for Paulie, although I don't understand why you gentlemen have a problem with analogies to other countries in this thread.
You asked me to show the evidence. And I did. Well then, instead of trying to shut down the debate, please explain why Putin should be tried for war crimes in Ukraine, while American presidents Lyndon B Johnson and George W. Bush should not have been, in Vietnam and the Middle East, respectively. Feel free to reply in the American Politics thread if you wish, like I did for Paulie, although I don't understand why you gentlemen have a problem with analogies to other countries in this thread.I already explained in American Politics that the Vietnam and Iraq wars were nothing like the Ukraine war. They weren't criminal, unprovoked wars.
The Ukraine war is.
But anyway, why don't we take your brilliant reasoning even further?
In the 1863 Bear River massacre, the US Army murdered between 300-400 Native Americans, with 100 women and children among them. Yet, Abraham Lincoln was never indicted and prosecuted for this crime. Thus, I propose a posthumous exoneration of all so-called Nazi war criminals convicted after 1945 for crimes against humanity. Because, following your logic, if Lincoln avoided justice for mass murder that occurred on his watch, then war crimes and crimes against humanity simply don't exist..
Or am I getting it all wrong and you only aim to protect war criminals you like?
I already explained in American Politics that the Vietnam and Iraq wars were nothing like the Ukraine war. They weren't criminal, unprovoked wars.
The Ukraine war is.
You are one of the dumbest people I have come across on the internet. A million people died in the Iraq war. The country was destroyed. It was all done under the pretext of Iraq supposedly having WMD, which was proven to be a complete lie. The Iraq war was one of the biggest crimes of the last quarter of a century. The Ukraine war started in 2014. If you really want to go back in history as to when it really started, it was in 2008 when the chimp G. W Bush invited Ukraine to join NATO in 2008. Ukraine / Georgia joining NATO were Russian read lines and that's what NATO did, it provoked a needless war. Read William Burns' famous memo titled no means no. I feel bad for wasting my time and typing this post to a dumbshit like you. But others will read it so that's why I made the effort.
Reiner Otto
08-13-24, 17:59
If you really want to go back in history as to when it really started, it was in 2008 when the chimp G. W Bush invited Ukraine to join NATO in 2008. Ukraine / Georgia joining NATO were Russian read lines and that's what NATO did, it provoked a needless war. Good joke. Germany and France strictly opposed this Amercan idea. And, probably you do not know, it needs all member states of NATO to agree to a new member.
You are one of the dumbest people I have come across on the internet. A million people died in the Iraq war. The country was destroyed. It was all done under the pretext of Iraq supposedly having WMD, which was proven to be a complete lie. The Iraq war was one of the biggest crimes of the last quarter of a century. The Ukraine war started in 2014. If you really want to go back in history as to when it really started, it was in 2008 when the chimp G. W Bush invited Ukraine to join NATO in 2008. Ukraine / Georgia joining NATO were Russian read lines and that's what NATO did, it provoked a needless war. Read William Burns' famous memo titled no means no. I feel bad for wasting my time and typing this post to a dumbshit like you. But others will read it so that's why I made the effort.Excellent short summary of the history of the Russian grievances Blood Red. I agree with you about Iraq, although I don't know whether to classify it as one of the biggest crimes or one of the biggest fuckups of the last quarter century.
I disagree with you on two points. Xpartan may be gullible and naive, but he's not dumb. Secondly, I believe you can trace the origins of the conflict back farther, to assurances by James Baker, Helmut Kohl, George H. W. Bush, Robert Gates, Margaret Thatcher, John Major, Francois Mitterand and others. See what Gorbachev had to say:
"Kohl, US Secretary of State James Baker and others assured me that NATO would not move an inch east. The Americans didn't stick to that, and the Germans didn't care. Maybe they even rubbed their hands at how well the Russians were ripped off. What did it bring? It's just that the Russians no longer trust Western promises."
https://www.bild.de/politik/2009/bild-medienpreis/die-deutschen-waren-nicht-aufzuhalten-7864098.bild.html (You need to run this through Google Translate).
"The Americans promised that Nato wouldn't move beyond the boundaries of Germany after the Cold War but now half of central and eastern Europe are members, so what happened to their promises? It shows they cannot be trusted "
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...-Cold-War.html
Here's a more detailed discussion:
https://nsarchive.gwu.edu/briefing-book/russia-programs/2017-12-12/nato-expansion-what-gorbachev-heard-western-leaders-early
Since I'm as verbose as you are succinct, I'll provide excerpts here from a good article about William Burns, the current CIA director, that expands on what you wrote.
"It is hard to find Burns's finger-prints on Biden's Russia policy or on the conduct of NATO's war in Ukraine, where USA Policy has run headlong into precisely the dangers Burns warned his government about, in cables from Moscow spanning more than a decade. We cannot know what Burns tells the president behind closed doors. But he has not publicly called for peace talks, as Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff General Mark Milley has done, although to do so would be highly unusual for a CIA director.
In the current environment of rigid pro-war, anti-Russian orthodoxy, if Bill Burns publicly voiced some of the concerns he expressed earlier in his career, he might be ostracized, or even fired, as a Putin apologist. But his dire warnings about the consequences of inviting Ukraine to join NATO have been quietly tucked in his back pocket, as he condemns Russia as the sole author of the catastrophic war in Ukraine, without mentioning the vital context that he has so vividly explained over the past 30 years.
In his memoir The Back Channel, published in 2019, Burns confirmed that, in 1990, Secretary of State James Baker had indeed assured Mikhail Gorbachev that there would be no expansion of the NATO alliance or forces "one inch to the east" of the borders of a reunified Germany. Burns wrote that, even though the pledge was never formalized and was made before the breakup of the Soviet Union, the Russians took Baker at his word and felt betrayed by NATO enlargement in the years that followed.
In the current environment of rigid pro-war, anti-Russian orthodoxy, if Bill Burns publicly voiced some of the concerns he expressed earlier in his career, he might be ostracized, or even fired, as a Putin apologist.
When he was political officer at the USA Embassy in Moscow in 1995, Burns reported that "hostility to early NATO expansion is almost universally felt across the domestic political spectrum here. " When in the late 1990's President Bill Clinton's administration moved to bring Poland, Hungary and the Czech Republic into NATO, Burns called the decision premature at best, and needlessly provocative at worst. "As Russians stewed in their grievance and sense of disadvantage, a gathering storm of 'stab in the back' theories slowly swirled, leaving a mark on Russia's relations with the West that would linger for decades," he wrote.
After serving various posts in the Middle East, including ambassador to Jordan, in 2005 Burns finally got the job he had been eyeing for years: USA Ambassador to Russia. From thorny trade issues to the conflict in Kosovo and missile defense disputes, he had his hands full. But the issue of NATO expansion was a source of constant friction.
It came to a head in 2008, when officials in the Bush administration were pushing to extend a NATO invitation to Ukraine and Georgia at the Bucharest NATO Summit. Burns tried to head it off. Two months before the summit, he penned a no-holds-barred email to Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice, parts of which he quoted in his book.
"Ukrainian entry into NATO is the brightest of all redlines for the Russian elite (not just Putin). In more than two and a half years of conversations with key Russian players, from knuckle-draggers in the dark recesses of the Kremlin to Putin's sharpest liberal critics, I have yet to find anyone who views Ukraine in NATO as anything other than a direct challenge to Russian interests," Burns wrote. "At this stage, a MAP (Membership Action Plan) offer would be seen not as a technical step along a long road toward membership, but as throwing down the strategic gauntlet. Russia will respond. Russian-Ukrainian relations will go into a deep freeze. It will create fertile soil for Russian meddling in Crimea and eastern Ukraine.".
In addition to this personal email, he wrote a meticulous 12-point official cable to Secretary Rice and Defense Secretary Robert Gates, which only came to light thanks to a WikiLeaks diplomatic cable dump in 2010.
Dated February 1, 2008, the memo's subject line, all caps, could not have been more clear: NYET MEANS NYET: RUSSIA'S NATO ENLARGEMENT REDLINES.
In no uncertain terms, Burns conveyed the intense opposition from Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov and other senior officials, stressing that Russia would view further NATO eastward expansion as a potential military threat. He said that NATO enlargement, particularly to Ukraine, was "an emotional and neuralgic" issue but also a strategic policy issue.
"Not only does Russia perceive encirclement and efforts to undermine Russia's influence in the region, but it also fears unpredictable and uncontrolled consequences which would seriously affect Russian security interests. Experts tell us that Russia is particularly worried that the strong divisions in Ukraine over NATO membership, with much of the ethnic-Russian community against membership, could lead to a major split, involving violence or at worst, civil war. In that eventuality, Russia would have to decide whether to intervene a decision Russia does not want to have to face. ".
Six years later, the USA -supported Maidan uprising provided the final trigger for the civil war that Russian experts had predicted.
Burns quoted Lavrov as saying that, while countries were free to make their own decisions about their security and which political-military structures to join, they needed to keep in mind the impact on their neighbors, and that Russia and Ukraine were bound by bilateral obligations set forth in the 1997 Treaty on Friendship, Cooperation and Partnership, in which both parties undertook to "refrain from participation in or support of any actions capable of prejudicing the security of the other side. ".
Burns said a Ukrainian move toward the Western sphere would hurt defense industry cooperation between Russia and Ukraine, including a number of factories where Russian weapons were made, and would have a negative impact on the thousands of Ukrainians living and working in Russia and vice versa. Burns quoted Aleksandr Konovalov, Director of the Institute for Strategic Assessment, predicting that this would become "a boiling cauldron of anger and resentment among the local population. ".
Russian officials told Burns that NATO expansion would have repercussions throughout the region and into Central and Western Europe, and could even cause Russia to revisit its arms control agreements with the West.
In a rare personal meeting Burns had with Putin just before leaving his post as ambassador in 2008, Putin warned him that "no Russian leader could stand idly by in the face of steps toward NATO membership for Ukraine. That would be a hostile act toward Russia. We would do all in our power to prevent it. "
Despite all these warnings, the Bush administration plowed ahead at the 2008 Summit in Bucharest. Given objections from several key European countries, no date for membership was set, but NATO issued a provocative statement, saying "we agreed today that Ukraine and Georgia will become members of NATO. ".
Burns was not happy. "In many ways, Bucharest left us with the worst of both worldsindulging the Ukrainians and Georgians in hopes of NATO membership on which we were unlikely to deliver, while reinforcing Putin's sense that we were determined to pursue a course he saw as an existential threat," he wrote.
While Ukraine still has hopes to formally enter NATO, Ukraine's former defense minister Oleksii Reznikov says that Ukraine has already become a de facto member of the NATO alliance that receives NATO weapons, NATO training and all-round military and intelligence cooperation. The intelligence sharing is directed by the CIA chief himself, who has been shuttling back and forth to meet with his counterpart in Ukraine.
A much better use of Burns's expertise would be to shuttle back and forth to Moscow to help negotiate an end to this brutal and unwinnable war. Would that make him a Putin apologist, or a candidate for the Nobel Peace Prize? What do you think?
https://www.commondreams.org/opinion/cia-ukraine-war
Well, I'll answer the question. That would make him a candidate for the Nobel Peace Prize.
I already explained in American Politics that the Vietnam and Iraq wars were nothing like the Ukraine war. They weren't criminal, unprovoked wars.
The Ukraine war is.
But anyway, why don't we take your brilliant reasoning even further?
In the 1863 Bear River massacre, the US Army murdered between 300-400 Native Americans, with 100 women and children among them. Yet, Abraham Lincoln was never indicted and prosecuted for this crime. Thus, I propose a posthumous exoneration of all so-called Nazi war criminals convicted after 1945 for crimes against humanity. Because, following your logic, if Lincoln avoided justice for mass murder that occurred on his watch, then war crimes and crimes against humanity simply don't exist..
Or am I getting it all wrong and you only aim to protect war criminals you like?By your logic, yes, Lincoln should have been prosecuted for war crimes. The Bear River Massacre sounds a lot like Bucha. Maybe members of the American and Russian military deserved prosecution for both, but I doubt leadership had jack to do with planning either. Undoubtedly Sherman was responsible for many civilian deaths while he was razing Georgia and other southern states. You could argue that Russian commanders who didn't do enough to enable civilians to leave Mariupol were responsible for deaths too. But does all that reflect back to Lincoln and Putin? I don't think so.
Your other point is about the justness of wars. As you put it, criminal, unprovoked wars. Well, as Blood Red correctly says, Iraq qualifies on those scores better than Ukraine. Russia believed it did have justification -- see my post just below too.
As to your proposal to exonerate Nazi war criminals, I don't see how you could have done that back in the 1960s or whenever, since the ones involved in the death camps were executed. Painting Russians as subhuman Nazi murderers is not conducive to ending this war. That's not to criticize you, but rather the politicians and other neoconservative members of western governments who say that and who want to see this bloodshed go on and on.
By your logic, yes, Lincoln should have been prosecuted for war crimes. The Bear River Massacre sounds a lot like Bucha. Maybe members of the American and Russian military deserved prosecution for both, but I doubt leadership had jack to do with planning either. Undoubtedly Sherman was responsible for many civilian deaths while he was razing Georgia and other southern states. You could argue that Russian commanders who didn't do enough to enable civilians to leave Mariupol were responsible for deaths too. But does all that reflect back to Lincoln and Putin? I don't think so.
Your other point is about the justness of wars. As you put it, criminal, unprovoked wars. Well, as Blood Red correctly says, Iraq qualifies on those scores better than Ukraine. Russia believed it did have justification -- see my post just below too.
As to your proposal to exonerate Nazi war criminals, I don't see how you could have done that back in the 1960s or whenever, since the ones involved in the death camps were executed. Painting Russians as subhuman Nazi murderers is not conducive to ending this war. That's not to criticize you, but rather the politicians and other neoconservative members of western governments who say that and who want to see this bloodshed go on and on.What a bunch of hogwash!
1. After the horrors of Bucha were discovered, Putin gave the brigade responsible the honorary title of "Guards". The US jurisprudence would most likely classify it as an accessory after the fact.
2. Russian commanders not only "didn't do enough" -- they would bomb and shell civilians trying to flee Mariupol.
3. Just stop! My "offer to exonerate Nazi war criminals" was sarcastic, because if a clear-cut war criminal like Putin shouldn't be prosecuted then war crimes don't exist anymore.
4. I already proved using reliable sources that neither Vietnam nor Iraq war was criminal. They might've had disastrous consequences, but they were legal. Find my post here or in American Politics by making a simple search. I'm not playing a merry-go-round with you.
Putin's war is 100% criminal, no matter how your Russophile self is trying to paint it.
Excellent short summary of the history of the Russian grievances Blood Red. That's beautiful. Now go ahead and kiss him.
Look, I don't give a fuck whether there are 10,100 or 1,000 fake grievances the Kremlin butcher might use to justify this land grab. No one has ever given Russia any guarantees, oral or in writing, that Nato wouldn't move east.
And not just guarantees. There were no promises, no high-fives, no gentlemen agreements, no "understanding" that Nato wouldn't move east.
It has never fucking happened. I don't give a shit what Burns says. It's a lie, a myth, a nothing-sandwich.
And you know what -- I don't believe that you're a moron or gullible. Unfortunately, it can only mean that you're dishonest.
If you found THAT Gorby interview, then you've found the other two, in which he clearly states that no guarantees have been ever made. The links to those are also provided in that Wikipedia page you used for your research. Gorby was a political animal. He said a lot of things contradicting each other.
Gorbachev sees no breach of promise in NATOs eastward expansion
Was NATO's eastward expansion ruled out in the Two Plus Four talks? No, says former Soviet leader Gorbachev. This is a myth. November 9, 2014
Former Soviet head of state and party leader Mikhail Gorbachev has contradicted the claim that he was promised that NATO would not expand eastwards during talks on German unification. This was not an issue during the negotiations in 1990, Gorbachev told the heute-journal on ZDF . He added: "The Warsaw Pact still existed. The question did not even arise at the time."
The Two Plus Four Treaty of 1990 was about the territory of the GDR, said Gorbachev. When asked whether it was a myth that he had been deceived by the West, Gorbachev replied: "Yes, that is indeed a myth. The press had a hand in it."Indeed, The Warsaw Pact (Soviet answer to Nato) still existed in 1989. It would've made zero sense to even discuss Nato expansion at the time.
If you were trying to discover the truth rather than prove the point, you'd mention it at least.
You are one of the dumbest people I have come across on the internet. Hey Igor, what's up? You've been awfully quiet lately. Still waiting for a metodichka, huh?
https://ceres.georgetown.edu/research/student-projects/russias-information-war-at-home-what-are-these-metodichki
Let me help.
Kyiv now controls 74 settlements and over 1,000 sq. Kilometers in Kursk region while Putin's meat grinder is spinning nonstop.
Category Change 7 the 14 the 30 the Total.
Personnel +1240 1147.1 1162.9 1137.0 658.3.
https://www.reddit.com/r/RussianLosses/comments/1ersxh9/estimated_russian_losses_from_24022022_to/
Good joke. Germany and France strictly opposed this Amercan idea. And, probably you do not know, it needs all member states of NATO to agree to a new member.I do know that and yes you are right about Germany and France being opposed to the idea. You have to understand that America controls NATO. They are the ones that call the shots. The rest of the Euros just fall in line like puppets. I said G. W Bush invited Ukraine to join NATO in 2008. That's what started this whole mess. Then the USA was behind the coup in Ukraine in 2014 that removed the democratically elected President. That was the last straw and Putin acted. He didn't want NATO in Crimea and control the black sea, hence he seized Crimea with no bloodshed as all the people there were Russian speakers anyways and it had always been historically Russian. Then the war in the Donbas started and that is when the USA aka NATO started arming and training AFU. Putin laid out his conditions for peace and to avoid war in 2022 just before the SMO started. It would have prevented this savage, needless war. But this is a war USA and NATO wanted, to make Russia bleed. The people of Ukraine were cannon fodder. The west does not give a shit about Ukraine. You will see how they abandon it, just like they abandoned Afghanistan.
Excellent short summary of the history of the Russian grievances Blood Red. I agree with you about Iraq, although I don't know whether to classify it as one of the biggest crimes or one of the biggest fuckups of the last quarter century.
I disagree with you on two points. Xpartan may be gullible and naive, but he's not dumb. Secondly, I believe you can trace the origins of the conflict back farther, to assurances by James Baker, Helmut Kohl, George H. W. Bush, Robert Gates, Margaret Thatcher, John Major, Francois Mitterand and others. See what Gorbachev had to say:
"Kohl, US Secretary of State James Baker and others assured me that NATO would not move an inch east. The Americans didn't stick to that, and the Germans didn't care. Maybe they even rubbed their hands at how well the Russians were ripped off. What did it bring? It's just that the Russians no longer trust Western promises."
https://www.bild.de/politik/2009/bild-medienpreis/die-deutschen-waren-nicht-aufzuhalten-7864098.bild.html (You need to run this through Google Translate).
"The Americans promised that Nato wouldn't move beyond the boundaries of Germany after the Cold War but now half of central and eastern Europe are members, so what happened to their promises? It shows they cannot be trusted "
We will have to agree to disagree on Xpartan having an IQ of greater than 22 I guess LOL.
But yes, like you have pointed out, this war was provoked deliberately by NATO, despite the warnings by Russia and despite the promises made way back when the USSR was disintegrating. If you really want to know who started the whole NATO expansion, it was Bill Clinton in the 1990's, despite a lot of opposition from many Americans and Europeans.
While Ukraine still has hopes to formally enter NATO, Ukraine's former defense minister Oleksii Reznikov says that Ukraine has already become a de facto member of the NATO alliance that receives NATO weapons, NATO training and all-round military and intelligence cooperation. The intelligence sharing is directed by the CIA chief himself, who has been shuttling back and forth to meet with his counterpart in Ukraine.
A much better use of Burns's expertise would be to shuttle back and forth to Moscow to help negotiate an end to this brutal and unwinnable war. Would that make him a Putin apologist, or a candidate for the Nobel Peace Prize? What do you think?
https://www.commondreams.org/opinion/cia-ukraine-war
Well, I'll answer the question. That would make him a candidate for the Nobel Peace Prize.Ukraine will NEVER join NATO. Write this down. The collective west doesn't want Ukraine in NATO and they will never agree to Ukraine joining NATO. So what was the point of this needless savage war? To make Russia bleed. Who cares that Ukraine is destroyed, their country facing a demographic death, as long as the MIC thrives, Russia gets weakened (in their mind) and as long as it is Ukrainians dying and not Americans and Euros? I swear, these people are pure evil.
What a bunch of hogwash!
1. After the horrors of Bucha were discovered, Putin gave the brigade responsible the honorary title of "Guards". The US jurisprudence would most likely classify it as an accessory after the fact.
2. Russian commanders not only "didn't do enough" -- they would bomb and shell civilians trying to flee Mariupol.I didn't know that. If true, and I believe "1" is, it shows poor judgement on the part of Putin and some Russian commanders. It isn't an excuse however to keep fighting while many more die. All sides should be working to stop the madness.
3. Just stop! My "offer to exonerate Nazi war criminals" was sarcastic, because if a clear-cut war criminal like Putin shouldn't be prosecuted then war crimes don't exist anymore.How do you think that's going to happen? Putin's approval rating in Russia is off the charts high. Russia's resources and manpower to pursue this war far exceed Ukraine's. At the risk of being repetitive, Russia has the largest nuclear arsenal in the world. Your belief that Putin's going to come to the same end as Ceausecu or will be prosecuted for war crimes is a pipe dream. If that's the purpose of this war, to bring Putin to justice, the western politicians have lost their minds.
4. I already proved using reliable sources that neither Vietnam nor Iraq war was criminal. Sure you have.
Look, I don't give a fuck whether there are 10,100 or 1,000 fake grievances the Kremlin butcher might use to justify this land grab. No one has ever given Russia any guarantees, oral or in writing, that Nato wouldn't move east.
And not just guarantees. There were no promises, no high-fives, no gentlemen agreements, no "understanding" that Nato wouldn't move east.
It has never fucking happened. I don't give a shit what Burns says. It's a lie, a myth, a nothing-sandwich.
And you know what -- I don't believe that you're a moron or gullible. Unfortunately, it can only mean that you're dishonest.
If you found THAT Gorby interview, then you've found the other two, in which he clearly states that no guarantees have been ever made. The links to those are also provided in that Wikipedia page you used for your research. Gorby was a political animal. He said a lot of things contradicting each other.
Indeed, The Warsaw Pact (Soviet answer to Nato) still existed in 1989. It would've made zero sense to even discuss Nato expansion at the time.
If you were trying to discover the truth rather than prove the point, you'd mention it at least.I'll take the word of the current director of the CIA over yours, especially considering he was also ambassador to Russia and has worked on Russian-related matters at the State Department for the better part of his career. You conveniently ignore the National Security Archive/George Washington University link, documenting contemporaneous communications of western leaders that show that "Soviet and Russian complaints about being misled about NATO expansion" were well founded.
Reiner Otto
08-14-24, 20:23
You have to understand that America controls NATO. They are the ones that call the shots. The rest of the Euros just fall in line like puppets. One more joke.
I do not remember, F or the to participate in Americas "Coalition of the Willing". Although being invited.
Then the USA was behind the coup in Ukraine in 2014 . < Obviously, you consider it a fact, that the CIA payed for the (tens of) thousands of Ukrainians on the Maidan.
And Putin acted. He didn't want NATO in Crimea and control the black sea, hence he seized Crimea < That was the beginning of his official aggression, correct.
And it had always been historically Russian. < To be specific, Crimea was Russian for about 250 years, since the first Russian annexion. And the forced exodus of the Tartars under Stalin.
Of course, you also say the USA is historically anglo American.
I didn't know that. If trueI don't mean to be rude, but until or unless you say something new and back it up with verifiable facts, I have to cut our little interactions. Life's too short to waste even 10 minute a day trying to reason with a believer.
Why does Professor Blood Red always demand we write down his lunacies?
I told everyone on this forum that Russia would win and to write that down. .
Write this down: Ukraine will NEVER join NATO.
Ukraine will NEVER join NATO. Write this down.
a Russian victory. Write that down. Have a nice day.
I don't mean to be rude, but until or unless you say something new and back it up with verifiable facts, I have to cut our little interactions. Life's too short to waste even 10 minute a day trying to reason with a believer.
Well. You were rude. Not only are you cutting our interactions, but you used the "F" word in some of your posts.
Seriously, come on Xpartan. I agree with you about a valid point you made that I wasn't aware of, and you selectively quote me to make it sound like I don't agree. "I didn't know that. If true, and I believe '1' is (true),"
I am a believer. A believer in reality. You conveniently ignore the verifiable facts I throw out. For example, the analysis in the Newsweek article, written by a very pro-Ukranian, anti-Russian journalist, the National Securities Archive/George Washington University site, and the writings of our CIA director who happens to be a Russia expert.
You probably realize this isn't as clear cut as you thought it was so you're looking for a way to bow out, none too gracefully. You should just admit it. "Tiny, you may be right, all sides in this dispute need to talk and work this out so the killing will come to an end." That's not hard to do.
Why does Professor Blood Red always demand we write down his lunacies?
Well. It depends on how you define "win" and "victory." In my book everyone's going to be a loser in this war. However, if you ignore all the dead Russians and Ukrainians and the damage to the Ukrainian economy and peoples' quality of life, then Blood Red may very well be right.
One more joke.
I do not remember, F or the to participate in Americas "Coalition of the Willing". Although being invited.
Then the USA was behind the coup in Ukraine in 2014 . < Obviously, you consider it a fact, that the CIA payed for the (tens of) thousands of Ukrainians on the Maidan.Don't you know about the history of the USA / CIA regarding regime change in countries? Have you not seen the videos of Victoria Newland in Kiev in 2014?
And Putin acted. He didn't want NATO in Crimea and control the black sea, hence he seized Crimea < That was the beginning of his official aggression, correct.
And it had always been historically Russian. < To be specific, Crimea was Russian for about 250 years, since the first Russian annexion. And the forced exodus of the Tartars under Stalin.
Of course, you also say the USA is historically anglo American.Most of the population in Crimea are ethnic Russians. Why did Putin wait until 2014 to take Crimea? Because he saw the writing on the wall with the regime change in 2014 and what NATO was doing. Had he not acted, NATO would be in control of Crimea and the black sea. I for one am very glad that Putin pre empted it. NATO is pure evil. Ukraine will realize this very soon, if they haven't already. Like I said, Ukraine will NEVER EVER join NATO. So why was the neutrality that Putin demanded so bad? These are hard questions that Ukrainians will ask their horrible leadership one day.
Well. It depends on how you define "win" and "victory." In my book everyone's going to be a loser in this war. However, if you ignore all the dead Russians and Ukrainians and the damage to the Ukrainian economy and peoples' quality of life, then Blood Red may very well be right.I think the definition of victory from a Russian perspective is very clear:
1. Russia keeping the 4 new territories + Crimea.
2. Ukraine adopting neutrality and never joining NATO.
Now, the longer this goes on, you can add Odessa and Kharkov to that list and possibly 2 more Oblasts. That's why Ukraine needs to sue for peace now as the peace conditions will only get tougher. Compare the scenario now to what was offered in Istanbul in 2022 March.
What will the Pro Ukrainians here consider victory once Russia wins? I am going to tell all here right now what the off ramp for NATO and all the neo cons and the delusional pro Ukrainian robots here will be:
1. Putin did not take Kiev in 3 days, so Ukraine won. LOL.
2. Ukraine still exists as a country and hence Putin didn't achieve his goal of wiping Ukraine off the map (he never wanted to do that, fools). LOL.
And yes, you may all write this down. We will see a few years from now who was right and who was wrong. If what I have said turns out to be wrong I will be the first one to admit it.
Cheers.
This is the reason why Russia destroyed the pipeline. Gazprom is in breach of their contracts for shutting down gas supply and can be sued because of it. The destroyed pipelines are supposed to be "force majeure" which would give them en excuse not to deliver.
They already played their leverage card by stopping the deliveries.
Try and live in reality, and not in clown world for a change.
Let me put it simply. There are long term supply contracts in place. If Russia simply stop delivering, they are in breach of contract, and every other country that has contracts with them will see that they are an unreliable partner who cannot be trusted to keep their word.
If suddenly the pipeline fails, then the result is same in that gas is not supplied, but RF is not in breach of contract.
This is why it is RF that did the bombing, so they could apply pressure on Europe without having to be in formal breach of contract.
As with most things, the simplest explanation is most often the truth.
That's right, but a small correction. It's not about their "reliability". Russia stopped worrying about their reputation a long time ago.
One irony of the attack is that Russias Gazprom potentially stands to benefit: it will no longer need to invent excuses not to supply Europe via Nord Stream 1. Now it can claim a force majeure, which will dramatically reduce the risk of compensation claims for non-delivered volumes. This logic, however, does not explain the damage caused to Nord Stream 2. On the other hand, the Nord Stream consortium companies and eventually Gazprom might even hope to collect some insurance for the damaged pipelines. Given that they already looked set to become a stranded asset, that would be far from the worst outcome for the giant company.
As for Nord Stream 2, it was useless anyway. It was never operational and probably never will be. There were no downsides for the Russians to blow it up.
https://carnegieendowment.org/politika/88062It turns out VinDici and Xpartan were wrong about the Nord Stream Pipeline sabotage. Ukraine did it. The effort was led by Valeriy Zaluzhniy, commander in chief of Ukraine's Armed Forces, reportedly against the wishes of Zelensky and the USA. The Germans are pissed. The Wall Street Journal broke the story in a lengthy investigative piece published today.
https://www.wsj.com/world/europe/nord-stream-pipeline-explosion-real-story-da24839c?mod=hp_lead_pos7
The idea that Russia would have blown up the pipeline always sounded ridiculous to me. You don't cut off your nose to spite your face.
And Putin acted. He didn't want NATO in Crimea and control the black sea, hence he seized Crimea < That was the beginning of his official aggression, correct.That might've been a tetriary reason for Putin's aggression. Unlike his brainwashed electorate, Putin isn't scared of Nato. Nor did he really believe Nato would go into the Black Sea and chase the Russia's fleet out. Those're just scary stories for the masses.
The main reason he took Crimea (and started the war in Donbas at the same time) was to punish Ukraine for drifting away from Russia's "sphere of influence". He could tolerate Ukraine being a Russia's client like Belarus, but not as a truly independent country.
The second reason was his electorate that mostly rejoiced with the Crimea grab. They'd dreamed about it for years. The mythical threat from Nato might've been a distant third.
1. The war has officially come to Russia for the first time in 80 years. Over 1,000 square kilometers and 80 settlements in Kursk Region have been liberated by Ukraine, and the night is still young.
2. Nato has drastically enlarged with Sweden and Finland having added 830 new border miles with Russia thanks to one man's military genius.
3. Crimea is a string of empty beaches in the peak of the tourist season.
4. The Black Sea Fleet is reduced by over 30%. It's hiding in Novorossiysk and the Sea of Azov (and Ukraine hits them there too).
So it's safe to say the SMO goes steadily according to the plans of the best military strategist of all times: Vladimir Putin.
On a serious note, Ukraine was the beginning of Putin's downfall and it will be the end.
And oh yeah: Write that down, LOL!
It turns out VinDici and Xpartan were wrong about the Nord Stream Pipeline sabotage. Ukraine did it. The effort was led by Valeriy Zaluzhniy, commander in chief of Ukraine's Armed Forces, reportedly against the wishes of Zelensky and the USA. The Germans are pissed. The Wall Street Journal broke the story in a lengthy investigative piece published today.
https://www.wsj.com/world/europe/nord-stream-pipeline-explosion-real-story-da24839c?mod=hp_lead_pos7I promised to reply when you come up with something new and not-laughable. Your link presents a persuasive argument. This qualifies.
The idea that Russia would have blown up the pipeline always sounded ridiculous to me. You don't cut off your nose to spite your face.And that one doesn't.
Amazing how little you know about the subject of your adoration. Launching a major war in Europe for no reason, which is PREDICTABLY going to destroy your own stability, economy, and reputation for tens of years if not centuries ahead, is a DEFENITION of cutting off your nose to spite your face. And this is what Russians have always done in the course of their history -- consistently and without fail!
DramaFree11
08-16-24, 04:20
I think the definition of victory from a Russian perspective is very clear:
1. Russia keeping the 4 new territories + Crimea.
2. Ukraine adopting neutrality and never joining NATO.
Now, the longer this goes on, you can add Odessa and Kharkov to that list and possibly 2 more Oblasts. That's why Ukraine needs to sue for peace now as the peace conditions will only get tougher. Compare the scenario now to what was offered in Istanbul in 2022 March.
What will the Pro Ukrainians here consider victory once Russia wins? I am going to tell all here right now what the off ramp for NATO and all the neo cons and the delusional pro Ukrainian robots here will be:
1. Putin did not take Kiev in 3 days, so Ukraine won. LOL.
2. Ukraine still exists as a country and hence Putin didn't achieve his goal of wiping Ukraine off the map (he never wanted to do that, fools). LOL.
And yes, you may all write this down. We will see a few years from now who was right and who was wrong. If what I have said turns out to be wrong I will be the first one to admit it.
Cheers.Yeo, I have been saying that for over a year if Ukraine is not careful they will end up losing Odessa. What a mess, they should have been negotiating from day one. Now they will probably end up with next to nothing.
Ukraine joining NATO will never happen, Putin would Nuke them before letting that happen. Hopefully NATO will collapse after this disaster or if Trump becomes President, we pull out of NATO or make major changes. NATO is a joke, hopefully we will learn from this disaster, but I have my doubts.
Ukraine army is collapsing every where, but where they made slight gains into Russia, but at what cost. I think Ukraine will soon regret this stunt, yes, they made some PR gains, but at what cost? These were Ukraine best, they will never be able to keep them supplied. We will soon see, but Russia always has a plan and Ukraine / NATO is out of control. I do think that Russia was definitely caught off guard, but now they might be setting a trap for Ukraine, like they have done in the past.
DramaFree11
08-16-24, 04:22
Why does Professor Blood Red always demand we write down his lunacies?Xman you still have not answered my simple questions have you been to either Russia or Ukraine. You are one crazy and delusional person.
Russia's currently chairing the UN Security Council. And in their unfathomable wisdom they decided to use it to complain about Ukraine's incursion into Kursk Region. Because who's a victim here if not Russia, right?
So they convened an Arria-formula meeting, which is an informal meeting that allows Security Council members to air their grievances. Not that anyone gives a shit (this is UN after all). But it's probably therapeutic.
Well, not this time.
After presenting their "case" against evil Ukrainians, the Russians learned a lot of interesting tidbits from their colleagues.
US: We are here because the RF has decided to try and shift blame onto Ukraine -- the victim of Moscow's brutal war and deflect attention away from the rampant devastation of Ukraine. The Kremlin must stop the war and stop using the Security Council to hide the truth about Moscow's own actions.
Slovenia: We strongly reject any kind of political manipulation. Let me be clear: we will not recognize the aggressor as the victim. We denounce double standards. It is odd listening to accusations of IHL violations while the accuser is bombing critical energy infrastructure and children's hospitals.
Japan: The aggressor must leave Ukraine. If the aggression stops, meetings like this won't be needed. Today's meeting is yet another example of Russian hypocrisy and the waste of UN resources. It is also another attempt by Russia to divert attention from what it is doing in Ukraine.
Switzerland: Once again Russia uses an ARA formula to promote its biased vision of reality. Russia attempts to justify their military aggression against Ukraine will not convince anyone.
France: France is today participating in this exercise of propaganda that Russia is deploying, with one goal in mind: to ensure that Russia's lies do not remain unanswered. Playing the same record of misinformation over and over again will not allow Russia to amend the facts or distort the reality of its horrible aggression against Ukraine. The maneuvers used by Russia to conceal these crimes come as no surprise to anyone. Once again, Moscow is adding to the indignity of killing civilians and children the indignity of lies and negationism.
Korea: In February 2022, the Russian Federation invaded Ukraine in violation of the UN Charter and international law. We regret that Russia has called today's meeting an attempt to justify its illegal Invasion against Ukraine. Any accounts detailed today simply do not change the fact that Russia invaded its neighboring country in violation of its sovereignty, political independence, and territorial integrity.
UK:
Russia started this war. Russia has chosen to perpetuate this war. It was Russia's imperialist ambitions, which drove it to illegally annex Crimea in 2014 and cause an outbreak of conflict in the Donbas. And it was Russia who launched a full-scale Invasion into Ukraine.
Russia says it wants to discuss violations of international humanitarian law and other crimes. The United Kingdom welcomes such a discussion. As Russia reminds us all parties to a conflict are required to distinguish between military objectives and civilian objects. Yet Russia's destruction of energy infrastructures has wiped out 9 GW of Ukraine's power generation since March. And in July alone, 80 medical and educational facilities were damaged or destroyed by Russian attacks.
Since February 2022, OHCHR has recorded almost 200 cases of summary executions of Ukrainian civilians and prisoners of war and 263 cases of sexual violence, all perpetrated by members of Russian law enforcement and the armed forces. The independent International Commission of Inquiry established by the Human Rights Council has described Russia's use of torture against Ukrainian civilians and prisoners of war as widespread and systematic. 95 percent of prisoners of war report torture.
So let us be clear. This is Putin's war and the means by which he and his Armed Forces pursue it, which is the crime here. To tell you the truth, some UN members supported Russia, namely Syria and Belarus. A few others produced a lot of beautiful words without saying anything (Hello, China). So it's not like Russia was condemned by everyone -- only by those who matter.
is a DEFENITIONI know, I should've checked, at least the word I capitalized. Apologies!
Xman you still have not answered my simple questions have you been to either Russia or Ukraine. You are one crazy and delusional person.Delusional and dumb.
Yeo, I have been saying that for over a year if Ukraine is not careful they will end up losing Odessa. What a mess, they should have been negotiating from day one. Now they will probably end up with next to nothing.
Ukraine joining NATO will never happen, Putin would Nuke them before letting that happen. Hopefully NATO will collapse after this disaster or if Trump becomes President, we pull out of NATO or make major changes. NATO is a joke, hopefully we will learn from this disaster, but I have my doubts.
Ukraine army is collapsing every where, but where they made slight gains into Russia, but at what cost. I think Ukraine will soon regret this stunt, yes, they made some PR gains, but at what cost? These were Ukraine best, they will never be able to keep them supplied. We will soon see, but Russia always has a plan and Ukraine / NATO is out of control. I do think that Russia was definitely caught off guard, but now they might be setting a trap for Ukraine, like they have done in the past.It is nothing but a PR stunt, the Kursk incursion.
With regards to NATO, even a lot of the NATO members do not want Ukraine to join. And Russia will make sure Ukraine turns into a rump state that can never join NATO.
So once again, I ask the Pro Ukrainians here, why was neutrality so bad?
Elvis 2008
08-16-24, 17:51
It turns out VinDici and Xpartan were wrong about the Nord Stream Pipeline sabotage. Ukraine did it. The effort was led by Valeriy Zaluzhniy, commander in chief of Ukraine's Armed Forces, reportedly against the wishes of Zelensky and the USA. The Germans are pissed. The Wall Street Journal broke the story in a lengthy investigative piece published today.
https://www.wsj.com/world/europe/nord-stream-pipeline-explosion-real-story-da24839c?mod=hp_lead_pos7
The idea that Russia would have blown up the pipeline always sounded ridiculous to me. You don't cut off your nose to spite your face.Tiny, you can just the gist of the story with these quotes:
It involved a small rented yacht with a six-member crew, including trained civilian divers. One was a woman, whose presence helped create the illusion they were a group of friends on a pleasure cruise.
But later, when the CIA learned of it and asked the Ukrainian president to pull the plug, he ordered a halt, those people said.
Zelensky's commander in chief, Valeriy Zaluzhniy, who was leading the effort, nonetheless forged ahead.
Armed only with diving equipment, satellite navigation, a portable sonar and open-source maps of the seabed charting the position of the pipelines, the crew set out.
Spending 20 minutes at that depth requires around three hours of decompression, and the person must then refrain from diving for at least 24 hours or risk serious injury.
Witnesses on other yachts moored in Sandhamn noted that the Andromeda was the only boat with a small Ukrainian flag hoisted on its mast.
End of quotes.
Now you have the Seymour Hersh version:
At the press briefing that followed, Biden defiantly said, "If Russia invades. . . There will be no longer a Nord Stream 2. We will bring an end to it. ".
According to the source, some of the senior officials of the CIA determined that blowing up the pipeline "no longer could be considered a covert option because the President just announced that we knew how to do it. ".
The waters of the Baltic Sea were heavily patrolled by the Russian navy, and there were no oil rigs that could be used as cover for a diving operation. Would the divers have to go to Estonia, right across the border from Russia's natural gas loading docks, to train for the mission? "It would be a goat fuck," the Agency was told.
Norway was the perfect place to base the mission.
The Norwegian navy was quick to find the right spot, in the shallow waters of the Baltic sea a few miles off Denmark's Bornholm Island. The pipelines ran more than a mile apart along a seafloor that was only 260 feet deep.
The Russian navy was known to possess surveillance technology capable of spotting, and triggering, underwater mines. The American explosive devices needed to be camouflaged in a way that would make them appear to the Russian system as part of the natural backgroundsomething that required adapting to the specific salinity of the water. The Norwegians had a fix.
The Americans provided one vital element: they convinced the Sixth Fleet planners to add a research and development exercise to the program. The exercise, as made public by the Navy, involved the Sixth Fleet in collaboration with the Navy's "research and warfare centers. " The at-sea event would be held off the coast of Bornholm Island and involve NATO teams of divers planting mines, with competing teams using the latest underwater technology to find and destroy them.
The C4 attached to the pipelines would be triggered by a sonar buoy dropped by a plane on short notice, but the procedure involved the most advanced signal processing technology. To avoid this, the sonar buoy, once in place, would emit a sequence of unique low frequency tonal soundsmuch like those emitted by a flute or a pianothat would be recognized by the timing device and, after a pre-set hours of delay, trigger the explosives.
On September 26,2022, a Norwegian Navy P8 surveillance plane made a seemingly routine flight and dropped a sonar buoy.
End of link page.
Here is the actual flight path of the plane: https://www.bitchute.com/video/v4yAPCqU22SG.
And then you have the British PM sending SOS Anthony Blinken a text on an unsecured line reading, "It's done. " https://www.bitchute.com/video/E22kNdO89rC0.
So you can see Tiny the WSJ article ranks up there with the lone gun man bit. Notice how the CIA, Zelensky, and Biden all tried so hard to prevent the blowing up of this pipeline and were made out to be the good guys? And then there was this idiocy proposed that the Russians had blown up their own pipeline. It flies in the face of the obvious question as to who benefits.
So you have one story where those doing the dive at 260 feet where you have 20 minutes to find and attaches bombs was done by a bunch of drunken Ukrainians and another saying it was Navy seals. To me, sure that Ukrainian team diving to 260 feet was possible. But finding the pipeline? You have Ukrainians using maps and sonar on a 30 foot yacht versus the Norwegian navy. Attaching explosives perfectly to the exact right spot and then having it detonate remotely sounds really hard. And the Ukrainians avoided all the Russian and European detection systems? All while diving from a boat with a Ukrainian flag on it?
The odds of Seymour Hersh's story being wrong and the WSJ one being correct I would put at 1000:1. Given those odds, the real question to me is why publish this now, and who is the target audience?
Doubling down against a house in a casino game to recoup losses is a proven strategy to get broke.
The June offer of a peace negotiations has been withdrawn.
Ukraine is a right arm of an ample body that fell and began to rot.
All the mechanisms, agencies and people behind the 2014 coup and the pathway to that disaster are known.
Now we have here old and impotent but not wise who try to justify it.
Hi Elvis, You have to subscribe to Hersh's substack to read the article, which I'm too lazy to do. He apparently based the story on a single source. The WSJ article is based on conversations with at least four "senior Ukrainian defense and security officials who either participated in or had direct knowledge of the plot," in addition to Germans and Dutch who investigated the case. Germany has DNA samples, fingerprints, and email, mobile and satellite communications linking the Ukrainians to the sabotage. It also has issued a warrant for the arrest of one of the Ukrainians, and several Ukrainians slipped out of foreign countries and returned to Ukraine to avoid prosecution or investigation.
I'd be very surprised if the WSJ article isn't substantially correct.
I agree that Zelensky may have been involved. I however also believe the USA Did indeed ask Ukraine to pull the plug on the operation. The sabotage was contrary to the best interests of the USA's ally, Germany and a number of other European countries. Prior to the attack, European natural gas prices were over $50/ MMBTU. Compare to around $2. 30/ MMBTU in the USA right now. Please recall the Nord Stream 1 pipeline, which was operational, was sabotaged, in addition to the new Nord Stream 2 pipeline. I don't think it made sense from the western European perspective to knock out the Nord Stream 1 pipeline. The loss of the pipeline was a blow to the continent's energy security, and along with the loss of additional supplies from Russia resulted in hardship and probably deaths. People were bankrupted by their electric bills in 2022.
I'm reading "Recreational dives typically reach about 130 feet, and technical dives often reach as deep as 260 feet." The group included four experienced deep-sea divers. The WSJ notes, "Ukraine has a long history of training top civilian and military divers. A naval base on the Crimean Peninsula in the past trained deep-sea divers for the purposes of sabotage and demining. It also kept combat dolphins trained to attack enemy divers and blow up ships, according to two senior Ukrainian officers." The Ukrainians wouldn't have been drunk when conducting the operation, and if they were partying in port, it was probably to provide cover that they were vacationers on holiday. Finally, although this was a shoestring operation, the saboteurs had the support of the Ukrainian military, including the commander in chief. The skipper and I believe other participants were Ukrainian military.
We both agree, it definitely wasn't Russia that did this. That was fiction spread by Ukraine and the neoconservatives. And Ukraine knew better.
We both agree, it definitely wasn't Russia that did this. That was fiction spread by Ukraine and the neoconservativesDon't forget Russia is bombing the ZNPP as well LOL. So basically the Russians are bombing themselves. This fiction is hilarious. But what's funnier is that there are people dumb enough to believe it.
Elvis 2008
08-17-24, 09:56
Hi Elvis, You have to subscribe to Hersh's substack to read the article, which I'm too lazy to do. He apparently based the story on a single source.Well, the flight plan was not a single source. The text sent by the English PM saying "it is done" was probably a Russian hack much like the infamous "fuck the EU" line was.
As for the Germans, they were the first ones who claimed the Russians did it. The USA exported a lot of natural gas so it benefitted us. Norway actually exports natural gas so they would have benefitted from the attack as well. There are two different groups in Germany: business which was likely furious at the bombing and the Germans in NATO who were happy about it. The countries that participated in the Sy Hersh story I do not believe were getting Russian natural gas. The other countries mentioned were England and the Netherlands.
Of course, patsies had to be cooked up. Yeah, there would be evidence, but I am not so sure how good it is.
We cannot know for sure, but I think that a lot of the pilots of "Ukrainian" unmanned drones are from NATO / the USA. The hardest parts of the operation were not getting to 250 feet but locating the pipeline, selecting the right spot to attack, and remotely detonating the bombs. NATO / the USA could have done the whole operation and had the Ukrainians involved as patsies.
The innocence of the Biden administration, Zelensky, and CIA is hard to stomach as is the yacht flying the Ukrainian flag. We agree the Russians did not do it, but I trust that Biden meant it when he said he was going to knock out that pipeline.
We agree the Russians did not do it, but I trust that Biden meant it when he said he was going to knock out that pipeline.OK Elvis, The spot price in Europe of natural gas is $50/ MMBTU. Gazprom is selling gas under contract through Nord Stream 1 pipeline at, say, $7. 00/ MMBTU, and Europe is building storage for the cold winter ahead. The price of imported coal is $400 a ton, up from $100 a year earlier. Europe is smack dab in the middle of its biggest energy crisis in history. So is Biden a big enough dumb ass to take out the Nord Stream pipelines? You bet he is. That doesn't mean the USA actually did it though.
Respectfully, your hypothesis that Biden's government would do it because it was in the best interest of the USA natural gas industry is wrong. He and his Progressive minders would do it because they're dumb asses. If they had their way, they'd shut down the domestic industry, throwing hundreds of thousands out of jobs, all in the quest to reduce carbon emissions. Which ironically would actually increase carbon emissions as coal replaced natural gas, but that's off topic. The only thing that has stopped them was domestic political considerations. If people in purple states and Congressional districts have to pay California prices for electricity, Democrats are toast come election time. Still, the Biden Administration has put a stop to issuance of permits for new LNG export facilities, figuring I guess that won't affect their party's electoral prospects for the next ten years or so.
Here's another example. When the war broke out, Europe and the USA impounded Russian sovereign assets, being dollars and Euros and bonds and the like, owned by the Russian government and held with western financial institutions. About $6 billion is held in the USA, and around $250 billion in Europe. With almost unanimous support from Democrats, and the votes of a lot of Republicans, Biden pushed through legislation that gives him the power to steal the $6 billion in impounded assets, sell them, and send the money to Ukraine. Now, assets held by USA Companies and institutions and individuals in Russia are far higher than Russian assets held in the USA. I imagine there are over $100 billion in Russian assets held by USA interests. So what does Russia do? It passes a law that if Biden actually steals Russian assets, then the Russian state, companies and individuals can go after assets held by Americans in Russia. And, again, the assets held by the Americans are much larger. Not only that, but if the Europeans and Americans actually liquidate Russian sovereign assets, it's going to make it harder to negotiate a peace agreement. Will that stop Biden from expropriating Russian assets? Hell no, because he's a dumb ass.
Anyway, we'll have to agree to disagree on this one. You've pointed out circumstantial evidence against the USA and Norway. IMO the direct evidence unearthed by the WSJ reporters outweighs that, and I don't believe the USA played a part in the sabotage of the pipeline. The Ukrainians beat Biden to it. I would hope that if Biden did try to blow up the pipelines, cooler heads in the USA Defense and State Departments would have prevailed, but who knows.
John Clayton
08-17-24, 21:04
... He and his Progressive minders would do it because they're dumb asses...Will that stop Biden from expropriating Russian assets? Hell no, because he's a dumb ass...Then, who do you regard as a clever strategist and as being intelligent?
Then, who do you regard as a clever strategist and as being intelligent?Blood Red.
John Clayton
08-18-24, 03:39
Blood Red.Excellent!
Doubling down against a house in a casino game to recoup losses is a proven strategy to get broke.Couldn't agree more, but Russia is not the house here, LOL.
Russia is a bum who went into the casino, put every penny she had on red, and lost.
The end is coming.
It is nothing but a PR stunt, the Kursk incursion.How nice! Why can't Russians occupiers come up with stunts like this, I wonder. Just don't tell me that Russians don't like PR because they live for it.
Why have the Russians taken less territory in the last three months than Ukrainians in one week?
Why did Ukrainian civilians go against the invaders with everything they got: from axes to Molotov cocktails to tractors, while Russian civilians either flee or yell "Glory to Ukraine"?
Any way you cut it, this whole thing has been a disaster for Putin! He totally miscalculated and has gotten himself into far more than he ever bargained for:
https://www.businessinsider.com/maps-show-russian-territory-ukraine-said-captured-kursk-advances-2024-8
Why have the Russians taken less territory in the last three months than Ukrainians in one week?Hi Xpartan,
Seeing that you have a third-grade education, I will answer this silly question.
The territory that Ukraine has walked into, occupied, whatever you want to call it, was very lightly guarded by inexperienced border patrol and not by proper battle hardened soldiers. There were also no fortifications really. The area that Ukraine has occupied or claims to occupy has no strategic significance. Now the reason why Russia has taken less territory is because the Russians are fighting in the Donbas to capture the most heavily fortified places where the fighting is ongoing. Starting from Avdivka and to its west, these areas are the lynch pin of the Bandera defenses to the remaining parts of the Donetsk that are still under Ukrainian control (Kramatorks, Sloviansk, Chasiv Yar). Remember how long it took the Russians to capture Bakhmut, another heavily fortified city which the actor Zelensky used to call Fortress Bakhmut. These cities have been heavily fortified since 2014.
Your lesson for today.
King regards,
BR.
John Clayton
08-19-24, 02:57
...Now the reason why Russia has taken less territory is because the Russians are fighting in the Donbas ..Whatever the strategic objective of the Ukrainian counter offensive actually is, it has already acheived a great success -- discombobulating Russian propaganda. Oh, how wonderful it is to see the Kremlin shills squirm, sweat, obfuscate, twist, tie themselves into knots, back track and lie.
Whatever the strategic objective of the Ukrainian counter offensive actually is, it has already acheived a great success -- discombobulating Russian propaganda. Oh, how wonderful it is to see the Kremlin shills squirm, sweat, obfuscate, twist, tie themselves into knots, back track and lie.The Ukrainian incursion into Kursk will have no impact on the final outcome of this war, which will be a Russian victory.
Any way you cut it, this whole thing has been a disaster for Putin! He totally miscalculated and has gotten himself into far more than he ever bargained for:
https://www.businessinsider.com/maps-show-russian-territory-ukraine-said-captured-kursk-advances-2024-8Walking into a territory is one thing. Holding it, sustaining it is a whole different ballgame.
Hi Xpartan,
Seeing that you have a third-grade education, I will answer this silly question.
The territory that Ukraine has walked into, occupied, whatever you want to call it, was very lightly guarded by inexperienced border patrol and not by proper battle hardened soldiers. There were also no fortifications really. The area that Ukraine has occupied or claims to occupy has no strategic significance. Now the reason why Russia has taken less territory is because the Russians are fighting in the Donbas to capture the most heavily fortified places where the fighting is ongoing. Starting from Avdivka and to its west, these areas are the lynch pin of the Bandera defenses to the remaining parts of the Donetsk that are still under Ukrainian control (Kramatorks, Sloviansk, Chasiv Yar). Remember how long it took the Russians to capture Bakhmut, another heavily fortified city which the actor Zelensky used to call Fortress Bakhmut. These cities have been heavily fortified since 2014.
Your lesson for today.
King regards,
BR.So, the Ukrainians did build the fortifications in anticipation of Russia's attack, and you didn't?
In other words, Russia fucked up? Thank you for confirming this, since there is no other way to interpret your reply.
You're waging a full-blown war on a neighboring country for almost three years. All your Kyiv in 3 days (2 days / 1 week /2 weeks) phantasies are long gone.
You throw at Ukrainians all you've got leaving your own borders vulnerable.
And yet, instead of building an impenetrable line of defense, you allowed several thousands Ukrainian troops walk in, kill hundreds of your soldiers, take prisoners another 2,000, and capture over 440 square miles of territory.
And it's not like you have no idea how to build defenses. The Surovikhin line held up quite nicely last year.
And it's not like you didn't see the danger. Kursk received 15 billion rubles to build the fortifications. Of course, your rubles are just a pale shadow of what it used to be, but hey, 15 billions is still a nice chunk.
What happened to this money, pray tell?
So, once again thank you for confirming what I already knew, but I don't think your supervisors will be happy with your lesson plans.
And BTW, you've failed to explain why Russian civilians have no desire to fight against Ukrainian liberators. Could you insert this topic in your curriculum?
John Clayton
08-19-24, 07:35
The Ukrainian incursion into Kursk will have no impact on the final outcome of this war, which will be a Russian victory.In February 2022, Ukrainian civilians were out in the streets, obstructing, fighting, resisting. Ukrainian babuskas were cursing and spitting on Russian troups. The government was passing out rifles like mad. In spite of this, resistance to the vaunted Russian war machine was predicted to be futile. And yet it succeeded largely by will and spirit. My question is why do is there none of that in Kursk Oblast? Where are the partisans? Where is the Russian civilian resistance? Where are the Russian babuskas? To me, this says everything about the war.
This is less about Ukraine winning, than Russia failing. What do you suppose is going to happen then in Dagestan, Ingushetia, Chechnya, Karelia -- even Kalinigrad? Where are the foreign legionnaires currently fighting in Ukraine: the Dagestanis, Chechens, Crimeans, Siberians going to go? Do you expect them all to just peacefully return to their lands? Frankly, I don't see it.
Okay, so you're living abroad somewhere in Dubai, UAE or wherever. Maybe you have a dollar bank account, a girlfriend, and good wifi. You stream Russian TV and are reassured by it. But have you given any thought to what you will feel and do once the RF collapses?
The nature of belief is strange. Once you believe in a narrative it is difficult emotionally to let it go. Like any addiction, it is difficult, maybe nearly impossible to abandon it by yourself. The process of unbelieving is usually only started by a traumatic loss. I'm suggesting that's what is going to happen to you. Prepare for it.
Walking into a territory is one thing. Holding it, sustaining it is a whole different ballgame.It's not about that. It's not even about the strategic significance of the territory. It's all about the psychological significance. The invasion has lifted the spirits of the Ukrainians and further damaged the morale of the Russians. Invaders on Russian soil again! And as others have said, this display of weakness on Russia's part might encourage its other enemies to act as well. Not good. Not good at all! Putin has totally fucked up! Well, the world already knew that much.
And as others have said, this display of weakness on Russia's part might encourage its other enemies to act as well. Not good. Exactly! Stalin's catastrophic handling of the 1939 Winter War emboldened Hitler and pushed him to attack in 1941.
And it's not just enemies who're encouraged to act. Putin's "friends" are encouraged too, and for a good reason.
During the Second Opium War in 19th century a Russian diplomat inserted himself as a broker between a Chinese Emperor and Anglo-French allied command. He managed to convince both parties to funnel the negotiations through him and using the art of deception and blackmail annexed almost 1 million square kilometers without firing a single shot.
The Far East Russian port Vladivostok and its surroundings used to be a historic Chinese province called Haishenwai, and that's the name China still uses on their maps even today despite their "limitless friendship" horseshit heralded by Chairman Xi. The Chinese leaders must be winking at each other and wonder: What the hell are we waiting for, LOL?
So, the Ukrainians did build the fortifications in anticipation of Russia's attack, and you didn't?
In other words, Russia fucked up? Thank you for confirming this, since there is no other way to interpret your reply.
You're waging a full-blown war on a neighboring country for almost three years. All your Kyiv in 3 days (2 days / 1 week /2 weeks) phantasies are long gone.
You throw at Ukrainians all you've got leaving your own borders vulnerable.
And yet, instead of building an impenetrable line of defense, you allowed several thousands Ukrainian troops walk in, kill hundreds of your soldiers, take prisoners another 2,000, and capture over 440 square miles of territory.
And it's not like you have no idea how to build defenses. The Surovikhin line held up quite nicely last year.
And it's not like you didn't see the danger. Kursk received 15 billion rubles to build the fortifications. Of course, your rubles are just a pale shadow of what it used to be, but hey, 15 billions is still a nice chunk.
What happened to this money, pray tell?
So, once again thank you for confirming what I already knew, but I don't think your supervisors will be happy with your lesson plans.
And BTW, you've failed to explain why Russian civilians have no desire to fight against Ukrainian liberators. Could you insert this topic in your curriculum?Russia did let their guard down and fucked up, there is no denying that. But as I have already said, this stunt from Ukraine will have no impact on the final outcome.
P. S Pay attention to where the real battle is, in the Donbas.
In February 2022, Ukrainian civilians were out in the streets, obstructing, fighting, resisting. Ukrainian babuskas were cursing and spitting on Russian troups. The government was passing out rifles like mad. In spite of this, resistance to the vaunted Russian war machine was predicted to be futile. And yet it succeeded largely by will and spirit. My question is why do is there none of that in Kursk Oblast? Where are the partisans? Where is the Russian civilian resistance? Where are the Russian babuskas? To me, this says everything about the war.
This is less about Ukraine winning, than Russia failing. What do you suppose is going to happen then in Dagestan, Ingushetia, Chechnya, Karelia -- even Kalinigrad? Where are the foreign legionnaires currently fighting in Ukraine: the Dagestanis, Chechens, Crimeans, Siberians going to go? Do you expect them all to just peacefully return to their lands? Frankly, I don't see it.
Okay, so you're living abroad somewhere in Dubai, UAE or wherever. Maybe you have a dollar bank account, a girlfriend, and good wifi. You stream Russian TV and are reassured by it. But have you given any thought to what you will feel and do once the RF collapses?
.The only collapse you should be concerned about is that of the AFU. And I am not saying it's imminent, but it's the only collapse we shall see, if there is one.
It's not about that. It's not even about the strategic significance of the territory. It's all about the psychological significance. The invasion has lifted the spirits of the Ukrainians and further damaged the morale of the Russians. Invaders on Russian soil again! And as others have said, this display of weakness on Russia's part might encourage its other enemies to act as well. Not good. Not good at all! Putin has totally fucked up! Well, the world already knew that much.Russia got caught with their pants down, there is no denying that.
The real Ukrainian objective in Kursk was to capture the Kursk Nuclear Power Plant, something they failed to do. Now as you can see, they are constantly changing the reason for the incursion. Sometimes they are saying it was to exchange prisoners, to improve their negotiation position for the future, and now this non sense about creating a buffer zone. The real reason was the KNPP, they failed to capture that, and I don't think they will be able to do so now.
The real battle is taking place right now in Donetsk and the Bandera positions are slowly collapsing. A very important battle is taking place in Pokrovsk, a very heavily fortified city and supply route.
John Clayton
08-20-24, 16:09
The only collapse you should be concerned about is that of the AFU. And I am not saying it's imminent, but it's the only collapse we shall see, if there is one.Can you point to a single, correct prediction you have made in the last 2.5 years?
Can you point to a single, correct prediction you have made in the last 2.5 years?Sure.
I predicted the Banderite counter offensive in 2023 would fail and it did. It failed so badly actually that even I was shocked. I thought they'd at least reach Tokmak. As for the rest of my predictions, I have already listed them. I have only been active on this forum for the past few months or so. The most important prediction is one I have repeated many times, namely Russia winning and keeping the 4 new territories + Crimea and Ukraine never joining NATO.
Paulie, Please see reply in American Politics threadThere's plenty of content from my last several posts to you to reply to here, where everything is on topic, that you completely skipped over. Though we already have your mindset memorized by heart by now, give the posts a go, point by point. One is obvious parody. Or, continue to leave them alone, or cherry pick and attack your caricatures, shift to whataboutisms / false equivocations and "deep state" conspiracy theories, or type out another essay of Kremlin propaganda. I trust most here will notice when you fail to take on the content. If not then it doesn't matter, as the war isn't going to be settled in this monger microcosm.
P.S. Do you really think it scores you some credibility when you claim you aren't voting for Trump? LOL I suppose anything that helps you avoid defending the many dumb statements you've made is helpful.
The Ukrainian incursion into Kursk will have no impact on the final outcome of this war, which will be a Russian victory.We heard all that bravado the first week.
Reiner Otto
08-20-24, 21:20
The Far East Russian port Vladivostok and its surroundings used to be a historic Chinese province called Haishenwai, The Chinese can capture even more land in that area, using Putlers words: Because historically Chinese.
Yeo, I have been saying that for over a year if Ukraine is not careful they will end up losing Odessa. What a mess, they should have been negotiating from day one. Now they will probably end up with next to nothing.
Ukraine joining NATO will never happen, Putin would Nuke them before letting that happen. Hopefully NATO will collapse after this disaster or if Trump becomes President, we pull out of NATO or make major changes. NATO is a joke, hopefully we will learn from this disaster, but I have my doubts. This buffoon is the hands down winner in the failed predictions count. He's been around since day one, and hasn't gotten anything right yet. The sky is always falling in the US and the Ukraine, while he ignores all rebuttals that correct what he's decided from the start to believe. Check his post history. Russia is short on allies, while China is dead set against nuclear escalation. The world also isn't safe once tyrants realize they can get whatever they want by rattling the nuclear saber. The joke is YOU, but you're still too stupid to get it.
Sure.
I predicted the Banderite counter offensive in 2023 would fail and it did. It failed so badly actually that even I was shocked. I thought they'd at least reach Tokmak. As for the rest of my predictions, I have already listed them. I have only been active on this forum for the past few months or so. The most important prediction is one I have repeated many times, namely Russia winning and keeping the 4 new territories + Crimea and Ukraine never joining NATO.So you don't have any proof of any fulfilled prophecies. Or if you do, then post them here.
Russia got caught with their pants down, there is no denying that.
The real Ukrainian objective in Kursk was to capture the Kursk Nuclear Power Plant, something they failed to do. Now as you can see, they are constantly changing the reason for the incursion. Sometimes they are saying it was to exchange prisoners, to improve their negotiation position for the future, and now this non sense about creating a buffer zone. The real reason was the KNPP, they failed to capture that, and I don't think they will be able to do so now.
The real battle is taking place right now in Donetsk and the Bandera positions are slowly collapsing. A very important battle is taking place in Pokrovsk, a very heavily fortified city and supply route.When you say "they," I assume you are talking about the Ukrainian army. Link us to the sources where Ukrainian officials have revealed their objectives, and where the same have desperately changed their story. Even if available it could be a ruse. According to some sources the Ukrainians have blown up two bridges in the Kursk region, heavily damaged an airport and fuel depot, while there's some video evidence. These aren't official sources. Tell us more about the "slowly collapsing positions in Donetsk and Bandera," with links to your source material. Yours is an easy game to play. You come pontificating day after day while making predictions, but I've never seen any links, no source materials. There's no evidence of any fulfilled predictions while the outcome of the war, and perhaps the fate of Putin is yet to be determined. Where are you getting your information? All we see so far is an apparent fellow traveler for fun with a lot of unsubstantiated claims and predictions. Source citations are academics 101. Show us where you are getting your information. If you refuse, then it's fair to assume that you are embarrassed by it.
The "real war" is everywhere it's fought, and covers both the material and psychological. Heavy focus in one area leaves gaps elsewhere. And the Ukrainians despise you, and probably will for generations, while most of the Russian population seems indifferent. That's quite a contrast. Even if Russia manages to conquer Ukraine your enforcers will be looking over their shoulders for a very long time. Based on my many interactions the Ukrainian focus is on Russia, unlike the US that focuses mostly on Putin.
P.S. To the audience, take notice if he keeps talking as if he's an expert but posts no links.
The real Ukrainian objective in Kursk was to capture the Kursk Nuclear Power Plant, something they failed to do. Now as you can see, they are constantly changing the reason for the incursion. Sometimes they are saying it was to exchange prisoners, to improve their negotiation position for the future, and now this non sense about creating a buffer zone. RUSSIA says the power plant was the Ukrainian objective, thus it's clear where Blood Red is getting his information. Afterall, he asserts that Alexi Navalny died of natural causes. Tiny has yet to tell us what he thinks about that, but completely dodged the question. But then we get this strident, exaggerated language, "constantly changing the reason" for the incursion, though a buffer zone, a move to draw troops away from Donetsk, plus gather prisoners are none mutually exclusive. Of course he believes and predicts it will all amount to failure, though some sources report substantial prisoner hauls and there's photos, while reportedly a third bridge near Kursk was just destroyed.
But Moscow has a very long history of getting the real story out to the world, so we should just believe them, right? Wink Guys skip the middle men. You don't need BR and Tiny. It's all in Google. Just comes here for the predictions, as the propaganda sources often don't include these.
P.S. I still want to see your links. You've never posted a single one best I've seen.
Sure.
I predicted the Banderite counter offensive"Banderite" is a derogatory word used by Putin propaganda machine to describe everyone in Ukraine who resists Russia's aggression. Of course, Bandera himself was assassinated by the KGB over 60 years ago, so I find it puzzling that an American engineer (that's who you're claiming to be, right?) even knows this word, let alone uses it in the same vein it's used by Russia -- to blacken the whole nation of Ukraine exclusively for Russia's domestic propaganda consumers.
"Banderite" is a derogatory word used by Putin propaganda machine to describe everyone in Ukraine who resists Russia's aggression. Of course, Bandera himself was assassinated by the KGB over 60 years ago, so I find it puzzling that an American engineer (that's who you're claiming to be, right?) even knows this word, let alone uses it in the same vein it's used by Russia -- to blacken the whole nation of Ukraine exclusively for Russia's domestic propaganda consumers.Just keep your eye out for the links to his sources. If he never posts them then that tells you everything you need to know.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.1.4 Copyright © 2025 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.