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Admin
01-01-00, 04:00
Thread Starter.

Ivanvlad
09-23-18, 22:40
Please Administrator! Can you split this thread in two sections, positive posts and negative posts, so we finally can read the section we like?

Member #4722
09-24-18, 02:18
Obvious constant trolling allowed by the mods. Until they do something no more reports from me.

Riina
09-25-18, 15:43
Obvious constant trolling allowed by the mods. Until they do something no more reports from me.We should have a fight thread. Way too many shills here for it not to get argumentative.

Member #4722
09-26-18, 11:16
We should have a fight thread. Way too many shills here for it not to get argumentative.So you want to fight me? What a loser. Just because I had a positive experience in Kiev? It's people like you that are making this thread useless.

Riina
09-26-18, 11:59
So you want to fight me? What a loser. Just because I had a positive experience in Kiev? It's people like you that are making this thread useless.No, I don't want to fight you. I was one of the first to call out Kiev as a bad mongering destination. Here we are now with the thread repeatedly confirming it.

I'm moderated now and plan to post much less. Looking forward to reading useful information.

Alekezam
09-26-18, 21:22
I humbly beg to differ, you and maybe one other are repeatedly confirming it. How many times do you have to repeat how much Ukraine sucks for mongering? Seriously, how many times till your satisfied?

Every time anyone even remotely says they had a good time you come running in to either accuse them of lying or start your rant on how much it sucks in Ukraine. Even when a first time visitor asks for advice you rip on Ukraine telling them to stay away. I'm not making this stuff up either, anyone can just look up your posts and it verifies it.

I'm not looking for a fight just pointing out the facts.

I would venture to say that less people post in the Ukraine forum for that reason alone. Not because they are afraid but because it's damn annoying to have to deal with you and the 1 or 2 other naysayers who just can't let it go.

Heck, I'm being as diplomatic as I can possibly be right now but I have no doubt you'll still come back with some filth laced response. Sigh.


No, I don't want to fight you. I was one of the first to call out Kiev as a bad mongering destination. Here we are now with the thread repeatedly confirming it.

I'm moderated now and plan to post much less. Looking forward to reading useful information.

Riina
09-26-18, 23:50
I humbly beg to differ, you and maybe one other are repeatedly confirming it. How many times do you have to repeat how much Ukraine sucks for mongering? Seriously, how many times till your satisfied?

Every time anyone even remotely says they had a good time you come running in to either accuse them of lying or start your rant on how much it sucks in Ukraine. Even when a first time visitor asks for advice you rip on Ukraine telling them to stay away. I'm not making this stuff up either, anyone can just look up your posts and it verifies it.

I'm not looking for a fight just pointing out the facts.

I would venture to say that less people post in the Ukraine forum for that reason alone. Not because they are afraid but because it's damn annoying to have to deal with you and the 1 or 2 other naysayers who just can't let it go.

Heck, I'm being as diplomatic as I can possibly be right now but I have no doubt you'll still come back with some filth laced response. Sigh.As long as I have my passion for Ukrainian girls, I plan to post my honest opinion. Kiev thread is all yours now. If I want to comment on a report, I'll just repost it here and express my view.

DramaFree11
09-28-18, 03:50
Riina,

I just wanted to say you are one of the few people on this page that does both post positive and the reality in Kiev and some of the negative issues to mongering in Kiev. I appreciate your posts and I wish others would do the same.

I will try to be more positive, but I do feel the current situation in Kiev is bad especially for Newbies. I worry about the new guys planning trips to Kiev, it can be real difficult for them, possibly a real expressive and bad experience. I hope when guys post they keep this in mind.

PhotoSlider
09-28-18, 06:13
Thread Starter.What a great brilliant awesome thought indeed! Forum became too polluted with prepostorous pseudo-reports to continue as is. Thank you!

Michi T
09-30-18, 22:34
Riina,

I just wanted to say you are one of the few people on this page that does both post positive and the reality in Kiev and some of the negative issues to mongering in Kiev. I appreciate your posts and I wish others would do the same.

I will try to be more positive, but I do feel the current situation in Kiev is bad especially for Newbies. I worry about the new guys planning trips to Kiev, it can be real difficult for them, possibly a real expressive and bad experience. I hope when guys post they keep this in mind.Can one of you dudes explain me the term "mongering"? What is this actually?

Riina
10-01-18, 01:26
Can one of you dudes explain me the term "mongering"? What is this actually?According to Urban Dictionary. A person who is actively researching and on the prowl for sexual intercourse with a professional or otherwise. This mostly happens away from home in a foreign Country or City, but can happen right in your own town..

I prefer the word hobbyist.

Volpone
10-01-18, 07:58
Can one of you dudes explain me the term "mongering"? What is this actually?Monger is a short name for mongersex, one who frequents working girls and prostitutes.

For instance: "he's a true monger, even his vacations are all to some fucking destinations".

Michi T
10-01-18, 08:11
Monger is a short name for mongersex, one who frequents working girls and prostitutes.

For instance: "he's a true monger, even his vacations are all to some fucking destinations".Ohhh, ok, so, this forum is mainly about "sex for money". That explains a lot.

My approach is not to pay for girls, my approach is to speak to girls in everyday life and to start from there. Without payments involved.

Now I start to understand why most guys here in the forum have no idea how to talk to a girl on the street but constantly say about girls they have. That may also explain why some pople love Kiev (mainly those who pay for sex) and some people hate sex (mainly those old and not so taltented guys who never land with a young girl).

Loooool!

Nonetheless, I keep my way, talking to normal girls on the street and pay only in very rare situations for a girl. Looooooolll!

PhotoSlider
10-01-18, 11:47
Ohhh, ok, so, this forum is mainly about "sex for money". That explains a lot.

My approach is not to pay for girls, my approach is to speak to girls in everyday life and to start from there. Without payments involved.

Now I start to understand why most guys here in the forum have no idea how to talk to a girl on the street but constantly say about girls they have. That may also explain why some pople love Kiev (mainly those who pay for sex) and some people hate sex (mainly those old and not so taltented guys who never land with a young girl).

Loooool!

Nonetheless, I keep my way, talking to normal girls on the street and pay only in very rare situations for a girl. Looooooolll!Yeah, you are the best! And we simply are the low life creatures trying hard to keep up with true leaders.

Seriously speaking Kiev and Ukrainian girls in general are well known for turning people insane, and even disappearing for weeks and months. Mike Tyson, JC Van Damm, etc.

Riina
10-01-18, 19:03
Why is someone on a pay for sex forum if they are so attractive and don't have to pay.

Michi T
10-01-18, 22:30
Yeah, you are the best! And we simply are the low life creatures trying hard to keep up with true leaders.

Seriously speaking Kiev and Ukrainian girls in general are well known for turning people insane, and even disappearing for weeks and months. Mike Tyson, JC Van Damm, etc.What you mean by insulting me? Is all right with you?

Ukrainian girls are just greedy for mone. That was told to me today by a Iranian lady that I met in the Billa supermarket. She converted from the Islam to the Christianity. And she is right. Ukrainian people in gerneral and girls in particular cannot be traustet-.

Riina
10-05-18, 15:31
I think because I've become a relationship junkie with fucked up girls. My days of satisfying primal needs are almost over. Amazing what you can learn and the empathy you can come to feel for different people when you're up close. Ukraine would be a goldmine for me.

PhotoSlider
10-06-18, 04:13
Why is someone on a pay for sex forum if they are so attractive and don't have to pay.I am not that attractive, and I do both P4P and free.

Why someone is on our Forum. ? Rhetoric question. Yet in my not so humble opinion the answers might be:

Vanity. Pride. Bragging. Ego hurt by loss. The usual emotions within the male circles.

Vanity is more positive, as long as it is not at the expense of others by belittling them.

Bitching on the other hand, even when ill disguised as an attempt to warn others, is mostly negative. Thanks God, this thread has been created. If only pollution in the Kiev Forum was moderated a little better in that respect. But we are all adults, no babysitting needed. Jackson is understandably busy.

The righteous ones help the community by meaningful credible info, analytics and positive applicable hints: Jymondor, Kozerog, Norsking, Riina, Jojosun, Rog123, et al.

Riina
10-11-18, 15:52
http://classyladiesofchicago.escortbook.com/

Guys,

Chicago is becoming a hub for Euro hookers. I think because NY, LA, and Miami are becoming very expensive places to live. Plus their's not much marketing available since the other forum went dark in the states. Post Fosta / Sesta has been the best mongering time of my life. The way girls are looking at me now is similar to post 911 when Russians saw me as a path to papers.

If you make a trip to Chicago, get a hotel in Prospect Heights, Illinois at Milwaukee Ave and Willow Road. Nail your brains out with Russians and Ukrainians cheaply.

Riina
10-14-18, 00:06
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/107758278/New-Zealander-looking-for-love-in-Ukraine-drugged-robbed-of-18-000

If this poor guy had read this forum and realized Kiev was a scam city scam culture, he would have likely avoided this mess. He was probably robbed by a girl and doesn't want to admit it.

Riina
10-14-18, 13:03
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/107758278/New-Zealander-looking-for-love-in-Ukraine-drugged-robbed-of-18-000

If this poor fella would have read this forum, he would have known that he was a target the moment he landed in Ukraine.

JonasWRay
10-30-18, 01:32
Where did you read that Avalon is closed?

When was the last time you were in Kiev? 2-3 years ago?

How can you create a list of Clubs in Kiev and pretend to provide advise for newbies here on anything related to Kiev, when all your info is based on hear-say and contempt for anything in Ukraine?

For Forum members: Avalon is alive and more than well after 20 years in business, and IMO keeps getting better with every year! I do not see any reason for it getting closed. In fact as a restaurant I like it much better than anything in Arena. My top 10 favorite in Kiev. It is not exactly a pick up place though. I go there with my new dates to relax and have great time. I am also acquainted with all Avalon hostesses, director of the first floor, and general manger of the whole complex, that includes spa, karaoke, fitness and more. Had a very nice dinner there a week ago. Introduced one distinguished Forum member to it few weeks ago, and we had an amazing conversation. Thanks to Jackson again!

Cheers!Thanks! Always enjoy you're honest and non-biased opinions and information whether it be bad or good.

There are still 2 particular individuals who are providing no valuable information other than negativity towards the country or attacking those who deem otherwise. In fact, I honestly wouldn't be surprised if they were the same person using two accounts.

But hey, this should should really be placed in the thread for stupid shit but since they aren't being moderated then what's the point?

GIA was my go to in the past and I thoroughly enjoyed it for both quality and price. Messed around with Mamba but was never really able to follow through with it but given the amount of correspondence I had on it I don't doubt I could have. Tinder was a definite goldmine. Never mongered on it but I was able to meet girls really easily. There are other dating specific sites that I don't want to flat out giveaway as I was able to secure non-paying interactions so they weren't necessarily geared towards mongering but that's not to say they couldn't have been. Maybe I just got lucky. Not to say I'm some sort of Casanova but I am middle aged, above average physically fit, socially adept, and have a pretty disposable income.

Point is, whether you're in Kiev to monger or not, it's extremely easy to meet girls that, in my opinion, are drop dead gorgeous.

Compare that to here in the States and there is no comparison whatsoever. I can't speak of the FKK's and other options in Western Europe as I've never mongered there. Not even going to compare with Asia or South American countries as those are completely different types of girls.

So all this talk of old days and inflated prices is ridiculous because guess what? Inflation is a global phenomenon. Deal with it. If you don't have the cash then work harder or tough luck. Even at the inflated prices it's still way cheaper than in the US so I'm not going to complain.

Riina
10-30-18, 14:20
Someone needs to create a forum for the Casanovas in Kiev. I understand their dilemma, chat about pussy on any other site and you're instantly banned. The problem is this a a pay for sex forum and nobody cares about their freebies and how socially adept they are are pulling hotties at middle age.

Jojosun
10-31-18, 22:58
There are still 2 particular individuals who are providing no valuable information other than negativity towards the country or attacking those who deem otherwise. In fact, I honestly wouldn't be surprised if they were the same person using two accounts..I fully respect all opinions on this forum, But I honestly think you're wrong here as it's obvious to me they are not the same Person. Just read previous posts and you get the picture.

JonasWRay
11-01-18, 04:10
I fully respect all opinions on this forum, But I honestly think you're wrong here as it's obvious to me they are not the same Person. Just read previous posts and you get the picture.I never disclosed whom the individuals are but even then it's easy to deduce as you more than likely have.

So what does that say about the number of people who hate on Ukraine so much?

Anyhow, not my intent to pick a fight. I'm merely one person who has had a positive experience.

I prefer to keep it civil and not attack others with differing opinions as we each deserve to voice them.

So apologies if I offended them I only want to make sure that others understand that that the experience varies from person to person as we are all different in terms of our cash flow, personality, age, physical fitness, etc etc. It's unfair to paint a an absolute negative experience on a country simply because you have had bad experiences. What about those who haven't had a negative experience like myself? Yeah, crap happens but not to everybody.

Jojosun
11-01-18, 06:03
Someone needs to create a forum for the Casanovas in Kiev. I understand their dilemma, chat about pussy on any other site and you're instantly banned. The problem is this a a pay for sex forum and nobody cares about their freebies and how socially adept they are are pulling hotties at middle age.Would you include our friend from the olden days (Prosal) as a member as well? With his freebies from Uzbekistan to Kiev.

DramaFree11
11-01-18, 07:20
Thank you for the back up, Appreciate it. This is funny, these 2 guys, tried to embarrass me, In the process they helped to prove my point How little they know about Kiev. Recommend a club and restaurant that has been dead for 10 years, Completely empty 99% of the time. Please ask Jackson to clarify, if you have any questions about the fact we are 2 people. You're in for a big surprise.

Kozerog
11-01-18, 10:05
DramaFree11 weakens his credibility with repeated careless formatting of posts, never mind the contents of those posts. If he is similarly careless in his mongering, that will spell disaster in Kyiv. But I think there is an element of truth in his critique. If you read PhotoSlider's reports carefully and you have personal experience with those hidden agencies he is using, then you will recognize that reality might feel quite different from his description. Not everyone is as quick to recover as PhotoSlider from rude girls who have to be sent away, girls who turn out unenthusiastic in bed, rude mamasans, etc. PhotoSlider was determined to make things work, he steered forwards relentlessly, as he puts it, and was obviously attentive to what he was doing so as to minimize risks and avoid problems. That's how I used to be when I was running a business, when setbacks just energized me to try harder. Not everyone is going to have that determined attitude with regards to mongering. Without that determined attitude plus lots of experience and street sense, I think average guys are going to find Kyiv closer to DramaFree11's description than PhotoSlider's.

What is not talked about much on this forum is the option of a shared mistress situation like I have with my jewel. If I will be seeing a girl / woman hundreds of times over the years (I've only seen my jewel about 36 times so far, but my hopes are high for the future) then the sort of unpleasant effort PhotoSlider is implying in his reports makes sense for someone like me, whereas it doesn't make sense for one shot deals. Big upfront investment but bigger long-term payoff. Of course, a mistress situation is not for everyone.

PhotoSlider
11-02-18, 00:46
...If you read PhotoSlider's reports carefully and you have personal experience with those hidden agencies he is using, then you will recognize that reality might feel quite different from his description. Not everyone is as quick to recover as PhotoSlider from rude girls who have to be sent away, girls who turn out unenthusiastic in bed, rude mamasans, etc. PhotoSlider was determined to make things work, he steered forwards relentlessly, as he puts it, and was obviously attentive to what he was doing so as to minimize risks and avoid problems.I wouldn't even call it forward, more precisely steering away from underwater rocks and other disasters potentially damaging the ship, there are plenty of those in Kiev. Just as you say, Kozerog, minimizing risks and avoid problems.

I am thinking in terms of strategic methodology applied to categories withing the locality, not tactical tricks applied to individuals.

In Rio-de-Janeiro, Brazil, it meant going to good Termas instead of street hunting and ordering outcalls to my place, as I didn't know the language that much, and there's a higher crime rate.


That's how I used to be when I was running a business, when setbacks just energized me to try harder. Not everyone is going to have that determined attitude with regards to mongering. Without that determined attitude plus lots of experience and street sense, I think average guys are going to find Kyiv closer to DramaFree11's description than PhotoSlider's.I have other thoughts on the subject. Trying to replicate Western hunting approach for women in Ukrainian bars and clubs is what killing most of foreign visitors. Kiev is cannot be further away from the concept. Will elaborate later, need to think more before trying to help others.


What is not talked about much on this forum is the option of a shared mistress situation like I have with my jewel. If I will be seeing a girl / woman hundreds of times over the years (I've only seen my jewel about 36 times so far, but my hopes are high for the future) then the sort of unpleasant effort PhotoSlider is implying in his reports makes sense for someone like me, whereas it doesn't make sense for one shot deals. Big upfront investment but bigger long-term payoff. Of course, a mistress situation is not for everyone.I did an ex-GIA GF for 2 weeks during this visit, and kicked her out eventually for being selfish, and not sweet enough. I could have stayed longer with her, getting more and more pissed and irritated. Cutting her out and shutting down any and all communication without further damage and endless complaints seems like a right move.

I currently have 2 long-term GFs in Kiev:

- One for 4 years now, she is a freelancer, and a smart one. My favorite.

- Another one for the last 3 years, and she has a significant other (other than me).

Most enjoyable young ladies. Trust means a lot in those relationships. Should see both of them soon.

Another ex-GIA I had for half a year, then her innocence wore out and I stopped answering Viber messages, stopped seeing her while visiting Kiev. She was one of the sweetest. Such a shame what happened to a very classy lady!

Also my apologies to everybody, if my Casanova posts offend you. Please disregard and keep in mind that I had my own share of failures in Kiev and elsewhere. I am almost surprised that Kozerog understand me the best. Perhaps it is his analytical mind and honesty to himself.

Riina
11-02-18, 14:43
It's posts like Kozerogs and PhotoSliders that make me realize that mongering in a new destination is like starting a business from scratch. You'll have to deal with setbacks and learn. I've become very comfortable with my Ukrainian pimp back home that everything has become so easy like a smooth operating business any idiot could manage. Maybe that's why I was down on Kiev my last trip. It's tough to start from the beginning again.

PhotoSlider
11-03-18, 01:58
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/107758278/New-Zealander-looking-for-love-in-Ukraine-drugged-robbed-of-18-000

If this poor fella would have read this forum, he would have known that he was a target the moment he landed in Ukraine.Him specifically, or anybody in Ukraine?

DramaFree11
11-04-18, 04:58
It's posts like Kozerogs and PhotoSliders that make me realize that mongering in a new destination is like starting a business from scratch. You'll have to deal with setbacks and learn. I've become very comfortable with my Ukrainian pimp back home that everything has become so easy like a smooth operating business any idiot could manage. Maybe that's why I was down on Kiev my last trip. It's tough to start from the beginning again.You are totally correct Kozerog is a pro and tells things the way they are, both good / bad.

Member #4722
11-05-18, 02:02
You are totally correct Kozerog is a pro and tells things the way they are, both good / bad.I love how Drama gives his opinion on other posters validity but he admits he hasn't been to Kiev in 2+ years. Rinna is a better source with his Chicago info!

DramaFree11
11-05-18, 16:53
I love how Drama gives his opinion on other posters validity but he admits he hasn't been to Kiev in 2+ years. Rinna is a better source with his Chicago info!I was talking about accurate and real information, not fictional.

Jojosun
11-10-18, 04:19
I never disclosed whom the individuals are but even then it's easy to deduce as you more than likely have.

So what does that say about the number of people who hate on Ukraine so much?

Anyhow, not my intent to pick a fight. I'm merely one person who has had a positive experience.

I prefer to keep it civil and not attack others with differing opinions as we each deserve to voice them.

So apologies if I offended them I only want to make sure that others understand that that the experience varies from person to person as we are all different in terms of our cash flow, personality, age, physical fitness, etc etc. It's unfair to paint a an absolute negative experience on a country simply because you have had bad experiences. What about those who haven't had a negative experience like myself? Yeah, crap happens but not to everybody.Can you believe it that crap did happen on one of my trips not just once but twice. Not in Kiev and I've been there loads of times, but in one of the safest cities in the world, Tokyo.

Shinjuku area of Tokyo and my drink got spiked by the Nigerian manager of a hostess bar. I smelt a rat when I had a look at my beer with very frothy head to it.

I just got up and headed to the exit and told him to f off.

Second time a very sexy Chinese hostess managed to fleece me out of nearly US $300 for just touching and feeling her in the club in the Akasaka area of Tokyo.

The 2 big scams didn't turn me against Tokyo as one of the great cities for fun and sex if only exchange rates go back to what they were nearly 10 years ago.

Michi T
03-10-19, 23:14
Stupid shit in Kiev discussion is so silen!? Everybody now happy with Kiev girls?

DramaFree11
03-11-19, 18:19
Stupid shit in Kiev discussion is so silen!? Everybody now happy with Kiev girls?Probably 30-45% are happy. Much better destinations as you know well.

Michi T
03-11-19, 20:41
Probably 30-45% are happy. Much better destinations as you know well.I know well, but why do you know that I know?

DramaFree11
03-12-19, 05:45
I know well, but why do you know that I know?It is obvious by your posts you know what you are doing. Unlike others you do not exaggerate or fabricate your stories. I give you credit for not paying as myself and others do, so keep up the good work.

Misterxxx
03-26-19, 09:22
Mistress, this is the norm, this guy make the crazy statements all the time. He simply does not care and has had little regard for newbies by his post, his statements do not give accurate picture of Kiev. He thinks it is funny when girls ask him for money or when he is a victim of bait and switch.I think I know the Ukraine better than most people in the forum. How much time did you spend in the Ukraine? Several years? Like me? You were in the Ukraine when the Maidan burned? Like me? Do you know Kiev as it was over 20 years ago? Or 10 or 5 years ago? Did you travel through the Ukraine? From Lviv and Lutsk to Crimea? To Kharkiv, Zaporishe, Donetsk and Odessa? To the border to Bulgaria? And also to the small towns?

The problem with reality is that you have spent most of your time with prostitutes. Professionals. Or semi-professionals. Not with normal people. The ideas of these girls are different. These girls want to rise. At least financially. In the company of these girls you will never experience the Ukrainian reality.

Where are you looking for an iphone in Kiev? On the Internet? Many of the prices are negotiable. In a shop in the center? That's the wrong place. Go to the suburbs. Or just Radio Rynok. Even there, all prices are not fixed.

PhotoSlider
03-26-19, 19:58
I think I know the Ukraine better than most people in the forum. How much time did you spend in the Ukraine? Several years? Like me? You were in the Ukraine when the Maidan burned? Like me? Do you know Kiev as it was over 20 years ago? Or 10 or 5 years ago? Did you travel through the Ukraine? From Lviv and Lutsk to Crimea? To Kharkiv, Zaporishe, Donetsk and Odessa? To the border to Bulgaria? And also to the small towns?Ukraine doesn't have border with Bulgaria. It's a common misconception. Doesn't really matter. Lets' call it a border with Romania. Yes I did go all the way to Danube River, where people speak an interesting mix of languages.

Yes I know Ukraine for more than 30 years now, and was in Kiev in 1986, the Chernobyl year. I stayed downtown at my GFs apartment at that time. She is nowhere near even a hint of semi-pro or anything.

I did hitchhiking for free with a different civilian GF in 1987 all the way from north of Kharkiv through Kremenchug to Odessa and back with a stop-over in Kiev. She was gorgeous in her mini-skirt helping to stop truck-trailer drivers. One night near Aleksandria or Kirovograd we stayed overnight in the village, just knocked on the door, and the old lady let us sleep in her barn. In the morning she brought us fresh cherries for breakfast. As you know, in Ukraine this is nothing special. God bless that old lady!

I have been to Crimea too many times, at least since 1987, and for another 6 weeks as late as September 2013 before the annexation.

I wish I went to Lviv, Uzhgorod, and many great cities in the West. Somehow I get stuck with girls in Kiev.

Yes, obviously you traveled more than me, and have justified claims on superiority. That's fine. This is not about whose dick is thicker and longer. This is Kiev Forum, as relevant as traveling through all of Ukraine might be.

I prefer that girls from remote towns and villages come to Kiev, and I meet them there. Prostitutes or not. I certainly differentiate, but there is a wide spectrum range in Kiev going from complete prudes to outright pros, and that attracts me personally.

IMHO it is much easier for an average member of this Kiev Forum to go to Kiev and stay in Kiev entertaining himself. There are separate threads for venturing outside.


Where are you looking for an iphone in Kiev? On the Internet? Many of the prices are negotiable. In a shop in the center? That's the wrong place. Go to the suburbs. Or just Radio Rynok. Even there, all prices are not fixed.Again, you are completely missing the point.Yes Kiev is flooded with all kinds of smartphones, of various quality and price.

I do not look anywhere to buy. I already have very good iPhone 6's 128 GB for free, that I do not need. It looks like new, with box and everything. My guess in Kiev it is at least 200 USD. The girl in question would prefer to pocket the difference between 6's and X or even new 8. And I agree with her, even though we never discussed it. It is difficult to earn money for a student in the college 2-3 hours away from Kiev. And I misspoke, it is not refurbished, it is used. Maybe I should replace the battery, and with that I actually would like to use your advise. Do you know a reliable repair shop? I cannot use a random one, because my friends experienced a different levels of repair quality in Kiev.

IMO 6's was the best iPhone made by Apple, and it has been discontinued. New 6's is not being sold as of September 2018. Too bad. At some point it will not run newer iOS and apps. That is the main logical reason to have a newer model, besides it being a status symbol like Michael Kors purse and shit.

In the past I gave away my retired and perfectly working iPhone 5 mongerphone. Funny, I gave it to mother of my GF in Cherkassy. I asked if after that I should marry her.

Is this young lady my mistress? Well, usually labeling someone a mistress has a connotation of exclusivity. I like my dynamically revolving harem. Right now she is a top 5. Maybe top 3 girl in that harem. I like her a lot. IMO $200-300 for a few nights, that already happened, is more than reasonable. We shall see how much more I will see her, and how I can further help with her tuition. BTW, thanks much to Horny American for staying on the subject, and approving my approach.

Also, as has been said here on the Forum, smart girls in Kiev do not like when money is spent elsewhere, they do watch monger expenses and react. For example, when I used to go to Rio with some of my GFs, they watched very attentively, and objected fiercely to any tips to dancers, literally hissing at them.

Misterxxx
03-27-19, 10:37
Ukraine doesn't have border with Bulgaria. It's a common misconception...And I thought you would be trapped. And answer me that you have already been there.

The fact is: $ 100 for a meeting is portrayed as ridiculous. Instead, a used iPhone 6 or 6's is proposed. But this is already available for $ 150. I already mentioned the source. Of course, there are phones of different qualities. But a Ukrainian knows the true value. So $ 150. Because top quality is not expected. But here a value of $ 200 to $ 300 was given for such a phone. That's not true. So the $ 150 for such a phone is closer to the $ 100. About which you laughed. Here you are still trying to save money. And $ 150 is still not $ 300. Which were proposed for a meeting "in 2019".

In addition: A used telephone can break. What do you do when the phone stops working a month later? Total loss. The girl will be upset. But you would like to continue to meet the girl. What does the plan look like? Will you give $ 300 for the last meeting? And take the phone back? Or $ 100 or $ 150 or $ 200? A new phone is being repaired by the store. Minimum: A used, no longer functioning phone will cause costs. About that the girl will be annoying. Even if a repair costs only 500 UAH.

Such a problem can affect the good relationship. A very simple girl from the country can be impressed. But a girl from Kiev? In no way. Or do you go to a second-hand clothes shop with your girls?

PhotoSlider
03-27-19, 15:26
And I thought you would be trapped. And answer me that you have already been there.As Arnold Schwarzenegger said in "Commando" if I am not mistaken:

- You forgot to say "please".

Yes I have been to the border with Romania, as already has been stated. Doesn't make me more important.


A used telephone can break.Everything breaks eventually. Girl may drop and break glass on new iPhone XS, and that would cost much more to fix than buying a phone at Radio Rynok. And all of it is not my problem.

That iPhone5 that I gave away is still working. Surrogate mother-in-law is very happy. When it breaks, she'll throw it away. It was free, no money transaction executed. She has separate working Droid phone. Same with the girl in question.

Yes these are LTRs, but I am not obligated. If I am around, I'll help fixing it. If I still like and trust the girl, I may even transfer her funds remotely using Ukrainian banking system, but I very rarely do that. Prefer to give money face-to-face, and get a DFK with continuation in return.


Such a problem can affect the good relationship. A very simple girl from the country can be impressed. But a girl from Kiev? In no way. Or do you go to a second-hand clothes shop with your girls?I do not go to any clothes shops with my girls. And I don't care if they go to second hand on their own with the money I give them. In fact, I prefer them without any clothes.

This particular girl is not from Kiev, certainly is not simple, and is not demanding. We enjoy each other company and together with or without money transactions. That is why it is LTR. Most of my contacts aren't from Kiev originally, with rare exceptions, but they reside in the Capitol now. More convenient for everybody.

I do not pay much attention to origin or pedigree. Young Ukrainian ladies quite often impress with their IQ and how mature they are, how developed mentally, regardless of where they are from. I do not believe you think of a country girl, or a simple girl as a somebody not good enough. I like them all. Simple and sophisticated.

This girl instead of playing a lottery with a random seller at Radio Rynok trusts that my used phone will work for another couple years. I most likely will not be around when the time comes to replace it with the new phone. Only a handful of girls stay with me longer than 3-5 years. Some get married, get a job, some change too much, or simply disappear without a notice. Normal process of evolution. There's enough fish in the see.

Apparently you and I have different perception of reality, and that is perfectly fine. As one wise person said here on the Forum:

- The World would be a boring place, if everybody was exactly the same.

You are entitled to have your opinion. IMHO we are getting into too much detail discussing very simple matter. I already got my answers from Horny American in a very concise form.

PhotoSlider
03-27-19, 19:17
And I thought you would be trapped. And answer me that you have already been there.I thought we are here on the Forum to help each other, not to trap.

BTW, do you know a reliable repair shop to replace an iPhone battery in Kiev?

That part of Ukraine is very interesting indeed. It still has the Turkish name "Budzhak", meaning the corner, or maybe even a nook. A mix of Romanian / Moldavian, Ukrainian, Russian, Jewish and even some leftovers from Mongolian invasion back in XIII century. Girls are beautiful though!

I wouldn't recommend anybody going there for mongering unless you have strong connections. I went with yet another 20 years old, who now is in Kiev. Memories make the life worth living.

DramaFree11
03-28-19, 02:17
And I thought you would be trapped. And answer me that you have already been there.

The fact is: $ 100 for a meeting is portrayed as ridiculous. Instead, a used iPhone 6 or 6's is proposed. But this is already available for $ 150. I already mentioned the source. Of course, there are phones of different qualities. But a Ukrainian knows the true value. So $ 150. Because top quality is not expected. But here a value of $ 200 to $ 300 was given for such a phone. That's not true. So the $ 150 for such a phone is closer to the $ 100. About which you laughed. Here you are still trying to save money. And $ 150 is still not $ 300. Which were proposed for a meeting "in 2019".Misterxxx,

You are wasting you time with this guy. He just likes to argue, he refuse to admit he is wrong and refuses to see the other side of anything. Sometimes I wonder if he is even goes to Kiev, the place that I use to love, but everyone has to admit to the decline, but he refuses. He is good at calling escorts and yelling at the operator. I have said, this before he has no regard for Newbies when he makes crazy statements.

Here is an example of some of the latest:

1. Kiev is better then 10 years ago.

2. I can have 3 9's in weekend.

3. Send guys to clubs that are empty and have been empty for years.

4. Refers guys to GIA.

5. Thinks it is funny when girls ask for money.

6. Does not bother him about the bait / switch.

Listen Kiev is good if you can find girls for less then $150 for multiple hours, but anything more is a complete rip off to bang 6's or lower.

Michi T
04-01-19, 01:17
I thought we are here on the Forum to help each other, not to trap.

BTW, do you know a reliable repair shop to replace an iPhone battery in Kiev?

That part of Ukraine is very interesting indeed. It still has the Turkish name "Budzhak", meaning the corner, or maybe even a nook. A mix of Romanian / Moldavian, Ukrainian, Russian, Jewish and even some leftovers from Mongolian invasion back in XIII century. Girls are beautiful though!

I wouldn't recommend anybody going there for mongering unless you have strong connections. I went with yet another 20 years old, who now is in Kiev. Memories make the life worth living.Yes, you dudes, please stop hiting and jelling at each other! That can be done in the "fuck shit Kiev" forum!

Here we go for fights and aggressive discussions - http://www.internationalsexguide.nl/forum/showthread.php?4028-Stupid-Shit-in-Kiev

Let's keep silent and peasful here in this forum

DramaFree11
04-01-19, 02:48
Yes, you dudes, please stop hiting and jelling at each other! That can be done in the "fuck shit Kiev" forum!

Here we go for fights and aggressive discussions - http://www.internationalsexguide.nl/forum/showthread.php?4028-Stupid-Shit-in-Kiev

Let's keep silent and peasful here in this forumGreat point! You and others give great pointers and I give you credit because you meet girls on the street and in real life. Other continue to fabricate and exaggerate about Kiev. They want to keep this illusion alive of Kiev, of 10-20 years ago. They continue to double and triple down or there point of views. The refuse to listen to facts and they use these ridiculous formulas to try and prove there point. If this would stop I would stop posting. I just do not want to see a newbies get screwed over in Kiev and that real possibility. This is the only reason I post on Kiev page.

IMembr
04-01-19, 06:08
Funny thing about game in the P4P world is we all employ it one way or another without thinking about it too much. In fact, it is directly or indirectly the SUBJECT of most questions and answers about the P4P scene on these boards:

If you refuse to Pay Upfront, that's game.

If you show up at clubs when they are closing on the assumption the girls left over will be more needy, that's game.

If you show up at places like Thermae in Bkk on the 31st of the month, the night before rent is due and you are especially fond of doing it on rainy nights, that's game.

If you walk into a club smiling when in fact you really aren't thinking of anything particularly humorous, that's game.Now I disagree with this almost entirely. Then again the definition of "game" may be different to everyone. Maybe. OK, well no. Having game is not refusing upfront payment or smiling in a club. Do you really want to issue points for just showing up?

Having game is just 1 aspect. It is not the aspect. If a girl has already decided condoms only and no A+, nothing will change that. For other girls, it may be something as simple as a guy having a small cock. Other times, it may be money. It can also be if a guy is nice or had some "game". For you to spend some time trying to prop up "having game" while shooting down -money- and throwing Monkey Paw as your 1 and only example is just plain wrong. Even you know it comes down to many factors. Instead you'd rather prop up your ego. LMFAO.

You. Bring up 2's (why would you even bring this up? Do you like to bring up extreme examples?) and call it my standard. Why? I never mentioned my standard. I'm a tech guy from California. And guess what. Having lots of money gets a lot of 8+. But I'm also realistic. Must of the time in the negotiation, the girl will ask for more money for other services. And that right there tells you what the motivation is. What else would it be?

Convincing a girl to do something in the P4P world doesn't take a lot of "game". These girls have heard it all before. It's a roll of a dice finding one who is sexually open than anything. This forum is also filled with rants about bad service because. Starfish. Do you blame the guy's game here?

I suppose the question is. Just how much a guy's ego needs to be fed while also getting laid. That's the real argument here.

Member #4722
04-02-19, 23:42
Great point! You and others give great pointers and I give you credit because you meet girls on the street and in real life. Other continue to fabricate and exaggerate about Kiev. They want to keep this illusion alive of Kiev, of 10-20 years ago. They continue to double and triple down or there point of views. The refuse to listen to facts and they use these ridiculous formulas to try and prove there point. If this would stop I would stop posting. I just do not want to see a newbies get screwed over in Kiev and that real possibility. This is the only reason I post on Kiev page.You haven't been to Kiev in more than three years. You must be the mongering Mother Theresa. You care so much about others. I'm calling BS. You just like attention and to get under people's skin. Kudos to you for doing a great job at achieving your goal.

I can go anywhere I want in the summer for my main yearly vacation and I'll Be back to Kiev for the fourth year in a row. Anyone can see from my post history that I post truthful reports and have visited most of the top mongering spots. So why would I continue to come back? I never even experienced the "glory days" of Kiev as my first trip was six years ago. For me this is the best spot for young attractive semi pros who give GFE experience.

DramaFree11
04-03-19, 02:55
You haven't been to Kiev in more than three years. You must be the mongering Mother Theresa. You care so much about others. I'm calling BS. You just like attention and to get under people's skin. Kudos to you for doing a great job at achieving your goal.

I can go anywhere I want in the summer for my main yearly vacation and I'll Be back to Kiev for the fourth year in a row. Anyone can see from my post history that I post truthful reports and have visited most of the top mongering spots. So why would I continue to come back? I never even experienced the "glory days" of Kiev as my first trip was six years ago. For me this is the best spot for young attractive semi pros who give GFE experience.Great report as always. I am not the one asking for referrals and giving out bad or inaccurate information. I have forgotten more about Kiev then you or your partner in Kiev will ever know. I do not need attention, read my review of other destinations I travel too, I never ask for referrals. Also, you constantly complain about my reports, the truth I am in a major Mongering Destination every 10-14 days and actually write reviews. I was banging hot Ukraine Girls in Moscow, way better looking then the girls I was meeting in Kiev. I tell guys where they can get 7's and above for the same price you guys are paying for 5's and 6's in Kiev. There is actually a night life where I go, you guys tell guys to go to a place with zero night life and empty Bars / Discos. Wait I forgot you could not get into Famous, interesting, myself and my friends had VIP access there, what shock. If you think there is Hot girls there you are in complete denial, just normal girls dressed up.

You are telling guys to go to average Destination at best, I telling guys to strive for more, much better destinations, for the same price. Keep up the positive attitude, and the great information.

PhotoSlider
04-03-19, 06:16
I can go anywhere I want in the summer for my main yearly vacation and I'll Be back to Kiev for the fourth year in a row. Anyone can see from my post history that I post truthful reports and have visited most of the top mongering spots. So why would I continue to come back? I never even experienced the "glory days" of Kiev as my first trip was six years ago. For me this is the best spot for young attractive semi pros who give GFE experience.Admit it, Rog123, just like me, you are hopelessly addicted to this City. Easy to be, as per my subjective perception it is one of the best in the whole world.

I travel to Kiev since 1986. Regularly since 2003 with increasing frequency for longer and longer stays with every year passing. Found quite a few allies on this Forum and made friends on Viber and IRL in Kiev.

I have been to River Palace, Mandarin, Restown, and other places that do not exist anymore. One of all-time favorite girls I found at River Palace the night before departure to the airport. Yes, that wonderful place is gone, the whole City is different, but new faces and hot spots are emerging relentlessly.

Firmly addicted to young Ukrainian ladies myself, I spoke to five of them over different messengers today after being away from Kiev for almost four months now. Despite the challenges, overall I am definitely not on the losing side, and have no desire to change. Love Kiev, and it surely shows. To be continued.

Tomek123
04-05-19, 21:33
Admit it, Rog123, just like me, you are hopelessly addicted to this City. Easy to be, as per my subjective perception it is one of the best in the whole world.

I travel to Kiev since 1986. Regularly since 2003 with increasing frequency for longer and longer stays with every year passing. Found quite a few allies on this Forum and made friends on Viber and IRL in Kiev.

I have been to River Palace, Mandarin, Restown, and other places that do not exist anymore. One of all-time favorite girls I found at River Palace the night before departure to the airport. Yes, that wonderful place is gone, the whole City is different, but new faces and hot spots are emerging relentlessly.

Firmly addicted to young Ukrainian ladies myself, I spoke to five of them over different messengers today after being away from Kiev for almost four months now. Despite the challenges, overall I am definitely not on the losing side, and have no desire to change. Love Kiev, and it surely shows. To be continued.Yes, my friend. You right. I like your style and your optimism. Our life is too short to be pessimistic. I agree with you in almost all the key points of this topic. Yes. That is, you will never experience such sensations and sexual emotions in Kiev or Kharkov, as in Thailand, but in Thailand you will not get those rare moments of pleasure in Ukraine. Kiev cannot give you so many Asian hot bodies and Asian pussies working. Who work from morning to evening. It's just mass prostitution. Rural population and girls from small Thai towns go to prostitution en masse. It has become a folk tradition. This is just a job. Asian job. You just have to understand that Kiev can never be the second,white, Bangkok, not because Kiev is very rich and rich and Ukraine is a prosperous country. Not. Not because. Ukraine is a poor country. A lot of poverty. This is just a different mentality. Experienced guys, veterans of Kiev hunting from Canada and The United States, has long written about this there. . Never hundreds and thousands of beautiful golden-haired Ukrainian women and girls will not take to the streets in Pattaya and will not laugh. Ukraine is Europe. You can fuck this beautiful 19 year old female student in your rented apartment in the center of Kiev. You can splash her face with sperm if you like it. Or persuade her to CIM if she need more money. Or anal sex. Such a girl as in this photo. I like this Russian or Ukrainian home porn. The guy and the girl in the poor apartment. You can also fuck such a girl in Ukraine. Now it's harder than in 2004 . Yes. Before these girls were ready for anything in bed. And Kiev hotels and apartments were trembling with sounds and screams. These times are gone forever. And the fuck of some little bald lawyer or doctor from Canada, they licked like the most delicious ice cream. It was like the discovery of america by Columbus. And these times are gone. We all remember these times. These tall girls with radiant skin in high heels. Along with some kind of real estate agent from Sweden or Denmark. Their tight Ukrainian narrow pussies and hot mouths made happy in bed not one and not two western not the most successful guys. These girls were like models. How much western sperm is left at that time in Kiev. You could probably create an artificial lake near Kiev from this sperm. But all good things never last too long. Exhausted by aggressive feminism and ugly harmful Western women, a Western man seemed to have fallen into some sort of oriental tale. In the West, a lot of money, and feminism, and a lot of unhappy single men. And a lot of sperm in the testicles. And in Ukraine, poverty, and many hot beautiful tight pussies and skillful mouths. And a little feminism. Now it is a little more in Ukraine than in those glorious times. It was a great combination. And what is also important. It was white European pussies. Not Asian workhorses. Like an erotic dream during teenage pollution. But all good things never last too long.

The UA girls were also happy. Then. In 2004 . When they abolished the visa regime. It did Yushchenko. Here they are foreigners. Now they don't need a visa. Now you don't need to become a sex slave in a Turkish brothel on the outskirts of Istanbul. You don't need to risk it. You don't need to go to it is unknown to then buy a Gucci handbag or expensive underwear. This can be obtained without risk to life and health. Because thousands and foreigners came to Kiev and then to Kharkov. And now any tall beautiful student can buy good shoes for herself or cosmetics. You just need to work a little with your pussy and mouth. In the room a hotel or a rented apartment. Without the risk of being sold into slavery. And here they are, beautiful panties from a fashionable boutique. Or shoes. And your boyfriend still does not know anything. You just need to take off your panties and stand a little in the pose of a dog in a rented apartment. And work with your tongue and mouth. You don't need to change your life and become a prostitute. And in the evening you go with your favorite boyfriend in a cafe or cinema. New expensive panties bought in a boutique yesterday cover up your pussy. Everyone is happy. A doctor or teacher from Finland is happy. You are happy. And your boyfriend is also happy. He knows nothing. And you do not need to go to the Turkish brothel. But these days are gone. But does this mean that Kiev has died forever? No. Ukraine will still be the poorest country in Europe for a long time. It will always be something like European mexico. And Russia will never let Ukraine go. Russia will always create problems and never allow Ukraine to become a rich European country. Which means tight pussies and hot skillful mouths will be for a long time. It just won't be as easy as before. There will be more courage. More activity. You will need to travel more often to Ukraine. To be open and sociable. That is, Ukraine should become for you something like a native country. You need more effort. If you do not have free time, then of course Asia or Colombia is better.

P.S.

(these photos are from home Russian or Ukrainian porn. In Ukraine and Russia there are really a lot of beautiful girls. Probably this combination of different blood and peoples. Nomads. Slavs. Wikings. This is a cocktail. So many beautiful women. .)

DramaFree11
04-06-19, 03:20
Yes, my friend. You right. I like your style and your optimism. Our life is too short to be pessimistic. I agree with you in almost all the key points of this topic. Yes. That is, you will never experience such sensations and sexual emotions in Kiev or Kharkov, as in Thailand, but in Thailand you will not get those rare moments of pleasure in Ukraine. Kiev cannot give you so many Asian hot bodies and Asian pussies working. Who work from morning to evening. It's just mass prostitution. Rural population and girls from small Thai towns go to prostitution en masse. It has become a folk tradition. This is just a job. Asian job. You just have to understand that Kiev can never be the second,white, Bangkok, not because Kiev is very rich and rich and Ukraine is a prosperous country. Not. Not because. Ukraine is a poor country. A lot of poverty. This is just a different mentality. Experienced guys, veterans of Kiev hunting from Canada and The United States, has long written about this there. . Never hundreds and thousands of beautiful golden-haired Ukrainian women and girls will not take to the streets in Pattaya and will not laugh. Ukraine is Europe. You can fuck this beautiful 19 year old female student in your rented apartment in the center of Kiev. You can splash her face with sperm if you like it. Or persuade her to CIM if she need more money. Or anal sex. Such a girl as in this photo. I like this Russian or Ukrainian home porn. The guy and the girl in the poor apartment. You can also fuck such a girl in Ukraine.Awesome report, great summary.

Tomek123
04-08-19, 06:17
Awesome report, great summary.Thanks.

Beautiful photo. Ukrainian students. They are like an illustration for my thoughts and conclusions. They seem to say-guys. Do come from Canada and the USA. From Finland and Denmark. Do not behave like in Thailand. We are decent girls and we each have a boyfriend. So everything must be secret. We are not working girls. Everything should be like friendship. And a little romantic. Without excessive pedantry. This is one of the main mistakes of the western guys. They do not always know how to convince a Ukrainian girl that she is not a ****. These guys often do the opposite the girl felt that she was a working girl. These guys just do not understand this mentality and Slavic psychology. Everything should be a little clothed in the form of tender friendship and cooperation. Because the main value of Bangkok is the iron hot Asian working pussy. These Asian pussies work like pumps. From morning till evening. These are iron professionals. Connoisseurs of their business. This is a conveyor. But the biggest value of Kiev and Ukraine is beautiful simple girls who often have guys. And want to get married. These are non-professionals or temporary professionals. For example, a girl came from the province to find a groom in Kiev. And she needs to pay for an apartment. It is just a temporary stage in her life. She is not a prostitute in her psychological basis. Or she wants to buy beautiful clothes. Accessories and fashionable expensive shoes. Then she will probably find a Kiev Ukrainian guy and in a year they will get married. But while she looks at the windows of expensive boutiques with anguish. It is necessary that a 45 year old teacher from Finland or an engineer from England and this beautiful lady can meet. While this girl really wants this shoe from a boutique. And if the parties reach a compromise and this guy will not make blunders in 1-2 days unhappy elderly neighbors in the center of Kiev will hear behind the wall how a humble teacher from Helsinki turns into a lustful monster. Furious creak of the sofa and slaps on the beautiful ass.

The sound in the phone will be temporarily turned off so that boyfriend Sergey does not interfere with the girl in the process. And bestial male growl -yes. Yes. Well. Do you like. Oksana, get. Yeaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaasss. Ochhhh. Yeeeee. The main thing is that this Finnish bald guy does not have problems with the cardiovascular system. Tight pussy is always acute stress. Then unfortunate Ukrainian neighbors will hear the sound of water in the shower. And then women's laughter. And then they will hear the sound of heels and see how some sort of charming creature in a short skirt came out of their house and went down spring street. This is Oksana. She took a shower after having sex with a Finnish physics teacher and now goes to the boutique to buy beautiful elegant fashion panties. She wants to put these panties on in three days. When she has a meeting with Sergey.

PhotoSlider
04-08-19, 18:39
Yes, my friend. You right. I like your style and your optimism. Our life is too short to be pessimistic. I agree with you in almost all the key points of this topic.Thanks for your kind words.


And these times are gone. We all remember these times. But all good things never last too long.And many new things come in the place of those old: for example, Viber and Instagram didn't exist during River Palace times.


tight pussies and hot skillful mouths will be for a long time. It just won't be as easy as before. There will be more courage. More activity. You will need to travel more often to Ukraine. To be open and sociable. That is, Ukraine should become for you something like a native country. You need more effort. If you do not have free time, then of course Asia or Colombia is better.Exactly.

Difficult doesn't mean bad. Ukrainian girls are not obligated to serve whoever comes to Kiev for 3 days. They have multiple options nowadays:

1. That girl Oksana may say: "Fuck it! I don't want this pathetic loser, who is trying to get into my panties for 1500 UAH, I need more, and I can do better. My roommates Nastya and Elena certainly do better than that".

2. Or travel to Europe, Turkey, Dubai where expenses are higher but Ukrainian girls feel more confident, as there's an illusion of less competition. Or maybe competition is less qualified in marketing and delivering commodities.

3. Or establish a good network of trustworthy customers through the abundance of totally new platforms, that never existed even 3 years ago. Then transform into an indie and milk those customers regularly while young ass is still firm and breasts are perking up.

For business savvy girls the objective is to make enough money to buy an apartment in about 10-15 years on the market (from 18-21 until 28-35). There aren't enough oligarchs and rich sponsors for all the girls on the market in Kiev.

Married or not married, doesn't matter much. Exclusive discreet agencies and personal contacts assembled over time allow semi-monogamous Ukrainian ladies to make supplemental income on a side. And that is not considered prostitution. Those male contributors are friends, lovers, admirers and everything else.

Hunting in the strip or night club is a waste of time. Pros are expensive and digital (insincere). Decent (analog) girls can be found in the street, around Universities, or simply on Instagram, or even better through existing connections, same as where one would find a good girl deserving his time, money and attention. I am not going to marry those girls, but search criteria is the same.

Easy or difficult depends on visitor coming to Kiev. Tables have turned. We used to go to River Palace to pick from what market was offering. Now girls stay home and do their hunting remotely via messenger.

Insisting on doing it your foreigner's way through nightlife and shit, - is an exercise in stupidity. Kiev will surely take your hard earned cash at Arena City, Rio and Scarlette, giving not much in return. To enjoy Kiev to full extent you have to belong. I experienced a paradigm shift and 180 degrees change in girls attitude after staying in Kiev for 8 weeks last fall / winter.

Tomek is right, if you have no time then better go to German FKK or Thailand. Girls in Kiev understand business real well, as it is Charles Darwin's survival of the fittest forcing to learn fast. They want local natives, or expats, or regular visitors. STR means KEC / GIA, and even there customers complain about service quality. Same reasons as explained above.

And as tough as it seems, after I understood the fundamentals and settled my own principles, I do not know any better place, where I do not need a visa, and can be happy, satisfied and content over 90% of my time.

Brazil is great, need a visa.

Moscow is being advertised. It is substantially more expensive, need a visa, and I consider myself Ukrainian. Do not want to visit a country that started a war against mine, killed so many thousands and forced to relocate many many more. Advertising Moscow on Kiev Forum IMHO is not only inconsiderate and obnoxious, it shouldn't be tolerated.

MagicSheep74
04-22-19, 10:43
I didn't realise there was any comedians in Ukraine.

PhotoSlider
04-22-19, 20:11
I didn't realize there was any comedians in Ukraine.More important subject: Would there be a change to visa-free travel for Ukrainian girls (unlikely), or anything that affects our hobby?

Riina
05-10-19, 18:20
I found the story about the Russian glam scammer in NY very interesting. If these rich kids would have known she was Russian, they would have been more cautious.

What happened to the old fashion Russian gold digger from twenty years ago? Yeah, they wanted to elevate themselves quickly in society but at least they saw a future together with their target. I can't recall one scam experience back in my day with Russians. Worse case was they would leave you if they found a better man. Now with social media, it's all about what they can extract from different people.

AntonySun1996
06-02-19, 18:46
It seems that my GF got some sort of mental issues and cannot stop cursing and shouting at me when she's in bad mood. It not only happens right before her period but also happens a lot at other time of the month. At first I thought she was doing this on purpose to make me buy her something to please her or just to avoid having sex with me, but later found this is not the case. She doesn't only do this to me but also to her sister on telephone conversations. I really think she has got some mental issues. She hasnt even asked me for money for quite a long time.

I hate it when being insulted or shouted at for no reason. I've been told that mental issues are quite common among ukrainian ladies. Any ideas how to deal with these girls? Are there any recommended medications available in local pharmacies?

TinyHippo
06-03-19, 14:31
It seems that my GF got some sort of mental issues and cannot stop cursing and shouting at me when she's in bad mood. It not only happens right before her period but also happens a lot at other time of the month. At first I thought she was doing this on purpose to make me buy her something to please her or just to avoid having sex with me, but later found this is not the case. She doesn't only do this to me but also to her sister on telephone conversations. I really think she has got some mental issues. She hasnt even asked me for money for quite a long time.

I hate it when being insulted or shouted at for no reason. I've been told that mental issues are quite common among ukrainian ladies. Any ideas how to deal with these girls? Are there any recommended medications available in local pharmacies?You need to be the man in the relationship and tell her to stop shouting. You cannot let a woman be the one in control. She will not have respect for you.

I have dated a dozen Ukrainians and there has been nothing close to this. If anything they are much more relaxed than Western girls and usually hide their feelings. You put your dick in crazy as they say. Do not be scared to walk away. You will forget about her once you find another girl.

Stevie69
06-04-19, 10:24
The question is "are you crazy?" Why are you putting up with this shit?


It seems that my GF got some sort of mental issues and cannot stop cursing and shouting at me when she's in bad mood. It not only happens right before her period but also happens a lot at other time of the month. At first I thought she was doing this on purpose to make me buy her something to please her or just to avoid having sex with me, but later found this is not the case. She doesn't only do this to me but also to her sister on telephone conversations. I really think she has got some mental issues. She hasnt even asked me for money for quite a long time.

I hate it when being insulted or shouted at for no reason. I've been told that mental issues are quite common among ukrainian ladies. Any ideas how to deal with these girls? Are there any recommended medications available in local pharmacies?

ShawMan74
08-05-19, 17:04
Ok so there is a little anecdote off of tinder that can be used as a shareable moment, or even a teachable one.

So I matched with girl, we sent text, and before long that became chit chat through the day. This led to an agreement to meet over lunch. Here's where it goes to shit. She wants me to take her to this place, basically insists on it - https://g.co/kgs/4Uppdj that's right, the jerk wanted me to take her to a 5 star restaurant on the water for our first meeting! Are you fucking kidding me!? But I'm willing to spot that there may be a culture gap and I don't want to insinuate intent across text so I tactfully reply, well, here's the chatlog:

Me: its a little more than what I wanted for lunch. It is also a little far down the way.
Me: can you meet me a little closer to independence square / maiden maybe?
Kristina: Take taxi.
Kristina: It's problem?
Me: not a problem, just a little uncomfortable to go that far for lunch. Is it a problem for me to pick a restaurant a little closer to independence square area?
Kristina: Well, since I give a piece of myself and this is a problem for you, I don't think that we need to meet at all.
Me: Wow. If this is a reflection of who you really are as a person, then I am glad we did not meet.

Ok totally duplicitous, dodged a bullet there, WHEW! But on a different level of thinking it makes me wonder what kind of a miserable bastard she must be on the inside, to think in that manipulative way. To approach a social site designed to meet new people with the conniving mindset to gain what? A lunch. Really?? She is then the same kind of person who throws her hands up to the sky and says "hasa diga eebowai" (look it up) when she finally has a moment of clarity, and looks around her to find that her life has become nothing but a sad sack of shit. For this kind of toxic person life is not too short, on the contrary, it is almost entirely too long. And I hope she lives forever hahaha.

Kozerog
08-05-19, 17:51
Kristina: Well, since I give a piece of myself and this is a problem for you, I don't think that we need to meet at all.
Classic golddigger line. It's always something to make the man feel guilty and cheap:

"I guess you can't afford the better things in life. ".

"So it's too expensive for you? You gave a different impression in your profile. I didn't realize you were poor. ".

"You have to excuse me, but I'm not a low class woman. I expect to be taken to nice places. ".

Lots of men, including me, naturally react to such taunts by wanting to prove we have money. Of course, I have the sense to recognize this reaction in myself and control it by just walking off. Other men swallow the bait and so the woman gets what she wants: an expensive dinner where she gets to treat the man with contempt the whole time. Women like this are often angry at other men for pumping and dumping or similar abuse, so now want revenge to make themselves feel better. Doesn't matter that the man she is revenging herself on is not the same as the one she is angry at.

Also, there are lots of men who actually want abuse like this from women. For example, there are men who feel helpless to control themselves sexually. By taking abuse, the man eventually comes to associate women with pain, and so his sexuality no longer controls him so much. Or something like that.

Goldiggers should be treated like mosquitoes, delayed flights, broken computers and all the other myriad hassles a man has to deal with in life. Stay calm, navigate around the obstacle, move on.

PhotoSlider
08-06-19, 03:54
...Me: Wow. If this is a reflection of who you really are as a person, then I am glad we did not meet...What a great line! Respect.


...Goldiggers should be treated like mosquitoes, delayed flights, broken computers and all the other myriad hassles a man has to deal with in life. Stay calm, navigate around the obstacle, move on...Why both of the above reports are in Stupid Shit section? Pure wisdom, no less.

SFNative
08-17-19, 14:00
Had some dates on Tinder I met a lady here for dinner. Polyuvannya Na Ovets it's like an Asian / steak restaurant. Yup you guessed it 5 star. Had to take an Uber there of course. I liked the lady plus wanted to see a different part of Kiev. I guess it was old Kiev.

I notice a lot of these ladies on Tinder they want to go to Avalon for drinks. I might have to check that place out? Is it good place?

PhotoSlider
08-17-19, 22:57
Had some dates on Tinder I met a lady here for dinner. Polyuvannya Na Ovets it's like an Asian / steak restaurant. Yup you guessed it 5 star. Had to take an Uber there of course. I liked the lady plus wanted to see a different part of Kiev. I guess it was old Kiev.

I notice a lot of these ladies on Tinder they want to go to Avalon for drinks. I might have to check that place out? Is it good place?Please explain your intentions.

I am sitting at Avalon this very moment and love it.

I have no intention to pick up anybody, and probably no chance, unless I do Tinder or Mamba or something. I am working on my laptop at the table, having great food and wine. Lots of eye candy at my vantage point.

Yes, Avalon is awesome. No it is not cheap. It may not fit your immediate needs.

Riina
09-20-19, 13:43
Not only is Ukraine a damaged culture full of corruption, it's a brainless government. What the hell are they thinking with this whistle blower complaint against a very revengeful leader.

I plan to refocus on Russia.

Arkiloko
10-02-19, 13:53
Ok so there is a little anecdote off of tinder that can be used as a shareable moment, or even a teachable one.

So I matched with girl, we sent text, and before long that became chit chat through the day. This led to an agreement to meet over lunch. Here's where it goes to shit. She wants me to take her to this place, basically insists on it - https://g.co/kgs/4Uppdj that's right, the jerk wanted me to take her to a 5 star restaurant on the water for our first meeting! Are you fucking kidding me!? But I'm willing to spot that there may be a culture gap and I don't want to insinuate intent across text so I tactfully reply, well, here's the chatlog:I didn't understand: did she wanted to go to Kanapa?

It's quite a good place; on Andriyivsky, really not so far from Maidan and quite in the center. And not so expensive IMHO. Not cheap as many restaurants in Kiev, but I think I'd go there for a first meeting.

Riina
10-02-19, 16:29
I didn't understand: did she wanted to go to Kanapa?

It's quite a good place; on Andriyivsky, really not so far from Maidan and quite in the center. And not so expensive IMHO. Not cheap as many restaurants in Kiev, but I think I'd go there for a first meeting.Dude, the guys a foreigner. He would have been foolish to go there, even if the place is better then sliced bread. McCafe is perfectly fine.

Michi T
10-19-19, 12:55
After many, many experiences in Ukraine, Poland, Romania, Armenia, Georgia and other Eastern European countries, I made my final conclusion about Ukraine: Girls are 99 % cheap shit. Only interested in money. They want to make a child, then get divorced, of course keep the child and have the ex man paying. When they meet a foreigner, they mainly see a source of money. As long as he pays its all good. But they do not want to invest any single cents themselves. If the man rejects to pay for luxury (e. G. Not only a coffee, water or glass of wine. It must be a bottle of wine plus prosecco plus shrimps etc) then they call him sick and greedy. Fuck them! I never experienced such a shabby beaviour in Georgia or Armenia.

I will still go to Ukraine, maybe every once in a while, but only try to get as much sex from the girls. On the same time I am realistic now and know that a serious relationship with such a girl is hardly possible.

Riina
10-19-19, 14:03
After many, many experiences in Ukraine, Poland, Romania, Armenia, Georgia and other Eastern European countries, I made my final conclusion about Ukraine: Girls are 99 % cheap shit. Only interested in money. They want to make a child, then get divorced, of course keep the child and have the ex man paying. When they meet a foreigner, they mainly see a source of money. As long as he pays its all good. But they do not want to invest any single cents themselves. If the man rejects to pay for luxury (e. G. Not only a coffee, water or glass of wine. It must be a bottle of wine plus prosecco plus shrimps etc) then they call him sick and greedy. Fuck them! I never experienced such a shabby beaviour in Georgia or Armenia.

I will still go to Ukraine, maybe every once in a while, but only try to get as much sex from the girls. On the same time I am realistic now and know that a serious relationship with such a girl is hardly possible.LOL. The grown up man getting freebies suddenly realizes how awful Ukrainians girls are. The country is a great place to become a child support victim. They undeniably good for fucking though.

DramaFree11
10-19-19, 21:00
After many, many experiences in Ukraine, Poland, Romania, Armenia, Georgia and other Eastern European countries, I made my final conclusion about Ukraine: Girls are 99 % cheap shit. Only interested in money. They want to make a child, then get divorced, of course keep the child and have the ex man paying. When they meet a foreigner, they mainly see a source of money. As long as he pays its all good. But they do not want to invest any single cents themselves. If the man rejects to pay for luxury (e. G. Not only a coffee, water or glass of wine. It must be a bottle of wine plus prosecco plus shrimps etc) then they call him sick and greedy. Fuck them! I never experienced such a shabby beaviour in Georgia or Armenia.

I will still go to Ukraine, maybe every once in a while, but only try to get as much sex from the girls. On the same time I am realistic now and know that a serious relationship with such a girl is hardly possible.Not sure, why this is a big surprise. I have been posting about this for 2 years. This is real Kiev.

AntonySun1996
10-28-19, 15:25
After many, many experiences in Ukraine, Poland, Romania, Armenia, Georgia and other Eastern European countries, I made my final conclusion about Ukraine: Girls are 99 % cheap shit. Only interested in money. They want to make a child, then get divorced, of course keep the child and have the ex man paying. When they meet a foreigner, they mainly see a source of money. As long as he pays its all good. But they do not want to invest any single cents themselves. If the man rejects to pay for luxury (e. G. Not only a coffee, water or glass of wine. It must be a bottle of wine plus prosecco plus shrimps etc) then they call him sick and greedy. Fuck them! I never experienced such a shabby beaviour in Georgia or Armenia.

I will still go to Ukraine, maybe every once in a while, but only try to get as much sex from the girls. On the same time I am realistic now and know that a serious relationship with such a girl is hardly possible.You are absolutely right.

My sponsored girl would try anything to please you several days before the pay day, but starts her abusive and disrespectful behaviours right after the pay day. This is no way acceptable. Not for me. After terminating this sponsorship, I am considering turning my focus onto Russian far east, which is geographically closer to my current location. Will visit Vladivostok soon. I was told the city has plenty of hot chicks while not ruined by mass sex tourism. Going to check it out.

DramaFree11
10-28-19, 19:55
You are absolutely right.

My sponsored girl would try anything to please you several days before the pay day, but starts her abusive and disrespectful behaviours right after the pay day. This is no way acceptable. Not for me. After terminating this sponsorship, I am considering turning my focus onto Russian far east, which is geographically closer to my current location. Will visit Vladivostok soon. I was told the city has plenty of hot chicks while not ruined by mass sex tourism. Going to check it out.This is the reality Kiev. While couple of guys continue to keep this Fantasy World alive. One writes, zero reports and the other claims he is 8-10 almost every night. Crazy that they complain about my posts.

Dave1111
11-01-19, 22:00
I am a regular on this forum and have spent months in Rio, Cuba and Pattaya. I have never ventured to any Eastern European destination. I have an urger to visit the Ukraine. I am over 45 and have a bit of chat and seem to get along okay with the ladies. I usually book an air BnB or a girl friendly hotel, but don't overspend on accommodation as usually stay at least a month. I used the usual dating sites in Rio and had some good success, also visited terms and some agency girls popped over a few times. I don't pay over the top prices for the girls, in all honesty I don't think you need too. I like visiting bars where there are some decent women, no violence, no massive grief from security guards. I like a place where there is somewhere to hang out during the day, a gym and maybe a shopping mall etc.

I basically need some direction, in my circumstances where would you go, where would you stay and what do you do at night. What dating sites are people using, or are there any clubs at night where it is possible to pick up non pros.

I appreciate probably everything is dotted around the forum already but I literally don't even know the areas of the country, let alone anything else. I only speak English and a bit of Portuguese, not a word of Ukranian, Russian or whatever it is that they actually speak. I am quite excited to take a trip over there but do need some wisdom.

Regards.

Riina
11-01-19, 23:08
, or are there any clubs at night where it is possible to pick up non pros.
If you're over 45, basically no.

Just get an apartment close to K street. Plenty of things to do for a month. Forget the civilians and grind through some hookers. It's the fastest way to socialize and possibly meet non pros.

Dave1111
11-03-19, 13:24
If you're over 45, basically no.

Just get an apartment close to K street. Plenty of things to do for a month. Forget the civilians and grind through some hookers. It's the fastest way to socialize and possibly meet non pros.Much obliged. What bars are active in the evening, anywhere specific.

Dave1111
11-03-19, 13:30
Much obliged. What bars are active in the evening, anywhere specific.Apologies, Is K street the actual name or is it short for a specific street in Kiev as I can't find a K street.

Cheers.

Mombie75
11-03-19, 16:47
Apologies, Is K street the actual name or is it short for a specific street in Kiev as I can't find a K street.

Cheers.Krechatik. The main street in central Kiev.

Member #4722
11-03-19, 17:23
Apologies, Is K street the actual name or is it short for a specific street in Kiev as I can't find a K street.

Cheers.He's talking about Khreschatyk Street the main avenue downtown.

If you are over 45 it's tough to hook up with younger women everywhere. But many women in Ukraine like older guys so probably easier to meet a younger civilian woman in Kiev than many other places.

PhotoSlider
11-03-19, 19:50
Apologies, Is K street the actual name or is it short for a specific street in Kiev as I can't find a K street.

Cheers.Khreshchatyk.

Your success at the bar depends on a number of factors. Looks, confidence, language, stars in the sky, weather report, your financial situation, how many times you've been to Kiev, how long do you stay, etc.

Action is not done in bars. Most is hidden. Online is the way today, unless you are young and charming)).

Dave1111
11-04-19, 22:06
Krechatik. The main street in central Kiev.Thanks gents.

Dave1111
11-04-19, 22:06
Khreshchatyk.

Your success at the bar depends on a number of factors. Looks, confidence, language, stars in the sky, weather report, your financial situation, how many times you've been to Kiev, how long do you stay, etc.

Action is not done in bars. Most is hidden. Online is the way today, unless you are young and charming)).Its online for me then LOL.

Dave1111
11-04-19, 22:08
Its online for me then LOL.Have any of you guys who use the Ukraine, have also used Rio in Brazil. I would like to know how they compare to each other.

Cheers.

PhotoSlider
11-04-19, 23:30
Have any of you guys who use the Ukraine, have also used Rio in Brazil. I would like to know how they compare to each other.I have been to Rio de Janeiro, Brazil twice.

Kiev and Rio are two different beasts. There are no Termas in Kiev, and I had great fun in Terma Monte Carlo in Rio. The girl I had sex with, a young student, afterwards wanted to go to my hotel for overnight stay for free, and she was hot hot hot except I wasn't alone. There's also more crime in Rio.

Otherwise beauty of young ladies and attitudes in both cities are quite close. Love Rio, but Kiev is easier for me because I speak only rudimentary Portuguese, and am fluent in Russian.

There's an opinion that Sao Paolo is better for mongering than Rio.

DramaFree11
11-05-19, 00:47
Have any of you guys who use the Ukraine, have also used Rio in Brazil. I would like to know how they compare to each other.

Cheers.Both Kiev / Rio are below average for different reasons. Moscow and Russia are great. If you are going to Brazil skip Rio, go San Paulo.

PhotoSlider
11-05-19, 02:13
Have any of you guys who use the Ukraine, have also used Rio in Brazil. I would like to know how they compare to each other.Ukraine is one of the many countries where US citizen, among many others, do not need a visa.

Russia, China, Afghanistan, Cuba, Iran, Iraq, Venezuela and others impose visa requirement. It should be obtained prior to arrival.

Brazil used to require visa, but AFAIK not anymore, beginning June 17,2019.

I did vacation twice in Rio, and both times left immensely happy. Rio is definitely more expensive than Kiev, even though Kiev is not cheap. Brazilian weather could be bad, crime is noticeable. But people, and girls in particular are the best. I could spend years there for sure. I do not go anymore because of valuable connections I established in Kiev over so many visits, and certainly because of language.

I also worked in Sao Paolo, and girls are just as great as in Rio. One bookstore employee was hitting on me while I was trying to buy a book.

I didn't hunt in Brazil outside of Termas, because of language limitations. I wish there were Termas in Kiev. I also didn't hunt in Brazil online, so cannot tell you what's going on in that respect.

If you are equally limited in communication, then lack of Termas in Kiev would dictate that Rio might be preferred. But visits to Termas are also hit and miss. I had 8 Terma girls in 5 days with 1 repeat. 1 of them gave me her Viber. 6 girls were outstanding. Unfortunately 2 in the end just went through the motions. Maybe because it was Tuesday. That didn't spoil my impression.

DramaFree11
11-07-19, 07:37
Again very bad and reckless advice. Rio is not safe at all, expensive and the girls are just not that attractive anymore. There much better and safer destinations.

I am sorry I will never understand P.S. Motives and advice.

TinyHippo
11-08-19, 15:24
Again very bad and reckless advice. Rio is not safe at all, expensive and the girls are just not that attractive anymore. There much better and safer destinations.

I am sorry I will never understand P.S. Motives and advice.Crazy statement of the year.

Yes, Rio only has 12 million people. Not one single pretty girl to be seen. Haha.

DramaFree11
11-08-19, 19:36
Crazy statement of the year.

Yes, Rio only has 12 million people. Not one single pretty girl to be seen. Haha.It is not good at all, unless you have incredibly low standards and you enjoy being a city with a incredibly high crime rate. Reckless is correct. Rio might have been good years ago, but now not at all. Very, very dangerous.

TinyHippo
11-09-19, 15:26
It is not good at all, unless you have incredibly low standards and you enjoy being a city with a incredibly high crime rate. Reckless is correct. Rio might have been good years ago, but now not at all. Very, very dangerous.I say the same thing when I have to go to America for work. It is pretty shocking.

DramaFree11
11-10-19, 00:20
I say the same thing when I have to go to America for work. It is pretty shocking.You are correct, can not disagree with that, but Rio violence is at the same level as most cities in the states. Good point.

ShawMan74
11-19-19, 03:40
Much obliged. What bars are active in the evening, anywhere specific.IMHO if you don't speak the language, it will be futile to try communicating in a loud crowded environment. Also bear in mind, your social competition might be fluent in the local language and he is also going to be an option for the ladies there. The most frequently recommended bars are "arena" and "caribbean. " I do not recommend either. Anywhere that is too big, too loud, has too many people, and has too high a turnover rate, is going to be counterproductive. That goes for many speakeasies as well. And of course as with anything, there are exceptions to the rule from time to time, but that is nothing to count on.

For me, the smaller and cozier the bar, the better. Anywhere a handful of people will come to have a few quiet well made drinks and intelligent exchange is your best chance. It draws the kind of people who have the mental focus to hold a conversation, in an environment conducive enough to have one. And this goes for working girls who are serious about working. Think about it from her point of view too. Whats she most likely to find in a popular club? A drunken stinking gopnik with 200 uah left in his pocket. Whats she going to find in a more contemplative setting? A well put together gentlemen who has about ten times that, and at least the quietude to use a translator app if need be. Which would you rather do business with?

To the rest of the board. Between the reports, living life, returning, and getting back to work, I got overwhelmed.

I know its been 2 months since I returned, and I got a LOT of catching up to do, but I promise I will.

Riina
11-19-19, 17:21
I know its been 2 months since I returned, and I got a LOT of catching up to do, but I promise I will.Did you find any hookers. If yes, where and how much did you pay?

ShawMan74
11-22-19, 22:41
Did you find any hookers. If yes, where and how much did you pay?Sorry my friend, I am guilty of gross untimeliness. I offer no excuses, only deep and sincere apology.

To answer this question, yes I found hookers. Where and how much I will get into when I start uploading the reports, which I will, it's just that there's 17 of them. It was like an avalanche hehe. I won't be able to put dates to them at this point though, sorry.

As for an earlier question you posted to me on the Kiev board "How long did it take in Kiev before you realized the scene was mostly leftovers?" I figured it might be that before I ever went to Kiev! This has been a global condition for close to 15 years now. Whether or not its worth it to you, is a personal thing.

PhotoSlider
11-24-19, 00:27
...To answer this question, yes I found hookers. Where and how much I will get into when I start uploading the reports, which I will, it's just that there's 17 of them....17 reports on 17 girls, or something different?

Already put popcorn in my microwave and am awaiting.

DramaFree11
12-08-19, 05:15
You guys need to read 20 pages on the see. Club before booking your flight Kiev. It real is not a very good option. Unfortunately your choices are very limited, during the week, slightly better on Weekends. You best option just call escorts and meet girls on the street.

Riina
01-12-20, 18:09
You guys ever watch the vlogger Coach Red Pill? I find the dude particularly interesting, although he is a con man. He lives in Ukraine with a wife 25 years younger. Here's what he never tells you. His relationship has zero loyalty. If his wife can lock on to his finances without him, he's out the door and he knows it. Red Pill never points out that he's a man with the financial security to walk away from work. I think he's from California. Ever notice a lot of mongers are from California? The one state guaranteeing your financial security if you simply bought a house and completely enriching you if you bought real estate. I think he mentioned his father once talking about monopoly and how to buy properties.

I believe you can find whatever you want in Ukraine. The caveat is no loyalty and you better have a deep wallet.

Riina
01-22-20, 16:13
I use to think that Ukraine was a waste of time for young guys. I can't help but notice 20 somethings with meaningless work and terrible girl options. I really wanted to tell a dude the other day that his girlfriend is a real skank. Assuming you have some family money, get yourself out there and find a girl. Kiev is already swamped with 30 something rich kids that realized they were spinning their wheels in the West.

DramaFree11
01-23-20, 03:15
I use to think that Ukraine was a waste of time for young guys. I can't help but notice 20 somethings with meaningless work and terrible girl options. I really wanted to tell a dude the other day that his girlfriend is a real skank. Assuming you have some family money, get yourself out there and find a girl. Kiev is already swamped with 30 something rich kids that realized they were spinning their wheels in the West.Great point. There is way more people then you think that have money in Kiev and a tremendous amount of weekend money in Kiev. Ygere Are so many Middle Eastern dudes that live there or travel in for the weekends, and many are young, another under reported fact.

Beautiful girls in Kiev have many options now:

1. Hook up with a rich local guy.

2. Travel to other countries.

3. Sponsorship.

Very easy for the truly beautiful girls. 5/6's not so easy, but that is what you will end up with most likely in Kiev. Do not believe the guys claiming they are with multiple high end girls in Kiev, simply not possible, even for locals. Good luck.

SanGaetano
01-23-20, 09:30
I agree with you about your warning about Ukraine. Here in Russia is not very different.

About CRP vlogger: he is not from California. As far as I know, he is Chilean. But like many immigrants he got his American citizenship after many years living in the US (mostly California). He used to be a writer. And even managed to have some books published.

I agree to many of his points when he is talking about the reality of life, specially when he talks about finances / jobs.

He is what some call "red pilled" coach or MGTOW coach. These movements are interesting, but sometimes too radical when they talk about "Abstinence", many of them are traumatized from their past relationships / marriages and now have a, well, let's say kind of hate towards woman. This is not for me. Call me a sucker if you want, but I still love women.

Back to Mr. CRP: Some of his advises are good, but some are contradictory. One of the contradictions is that he for example is pro Conservatism / right wing (or at least he was some time ago, I don't follow him anymore, so I can't say for sure now), so, he as a former immigrant himself a Trump supporter? And now he is immigrant once again in Ukraine, so what the heck?

Second, in some videos basically says very often that 99% of women are not worth it. But again he is "happily" married and has children.

But compared to the "black pill" or "honk pill" guys, he is just a normal joe next door.


You guys ever watch the vlogger Coach Red Pill? I find the dude particularly interesting, although he is a con man. He lives in Ukraine with a wife 25 years younger. Here's what he never tells you. His relationship has zero loyalty. If his wife can lock on to his finances without him, he's out the door and he knows it. Red Pill never points out that he's a man with the financial security to walk away from work. I think he's from California. Ever notice a lot of mongers are from California? The one state guaranteeing your financial security if you simply bought a house and completely enriching you if you bought real estate. I think he mentioned his father once talking about monopoly and how to buy properties.

I believe you can find whatever you want in Ukraine. The caveat is no loyalty and you better have a deep wallet.

Member #4722
01-23-20, 18:20
Great point. There is way more people then you think that have money in Kiev and a tremendous amount of weekend money in Kiev. Ygere Are so many Middle Eastern dudes that live there or travel in for the weekends, and many are young, another under reported fact.

Beautiful girls in Kiev have many options now:

1. Hook up with a rich local guy.

2. Travel to other countries.

3. Sponsorship.

Very easy for the truly beautiful girls. 5/6's not so easy, but that is what you will end up with most likely in Kiev. Do not believe the guys claiming they are with multiple high end girls in Kiev, simply not possible, even for locals. Good luck.It's totally understandable why you can't get laid in Ukraine. From your posting here you seem like a woman hater they are nothing but a number to you. That doesn't mean others can't have success.

Member #4722
01-23-20, 18:49
Great point. There is way more people then you think that have money in Kiev and a tremendous amount of weekend money in Kiev. Ygere Are so many Middle Eastern dudes that live there or travel in for the weekends, and many are young, another under reported fact.

Beautiful girls in Kiev have many options now:

1. Hook up with a rich local guy.

2. Travel to other countries.

3. Sponsorship.

Very easy for the truly beautiful girls. 5/6's not so easy, but that is what you will end up with most likely in Kiev. Do not believe the guys claiming they are with multiple high end girls in Kiev, simply not possible, even for locals. Good luck.When your Ukrainian Ex from the dating site dumped you, and she said "it's not you, it's me", she lied. It was you.

Member #4722
01-23-20, 22:03
Great point. There is way more people then you think that have money in Kiev and a tremendous amount of weekend money in Kiev. Ygere Are so many Middle Eastern dudes that live there or travel in for the weekends, and many are young, another under reported fact.

Beautiful girls in Kiev have many options now:

1. Hook up with a rich local guy.

2. Travel to other countries.

3. Sponsorship.

Very easy for the truly beautiful girls. 5/6's not so easy, but that is what you will end up with most likely in Kiev. Do not believe the guys claiming they are with multiple high end girls in Kiev, simply not possible, even for locals. Good luck.Didn't you post that you're not even allowed to travel to Ukraine anymore because of some Drama with your ex? I can only imagine what you put this poor girl through. Your obsession with Kiev is super creepy. Half your posts on other forums on ISG directly or indirectly mention Kiev.

No wonder you love Hong Kong club in Tijuana so much, the same place that 90% of locals say is a rip-off. This is one place where the women are so desperate that they aren't going to say NO. I get the feeling even you have been rejected there though.

DramaFree11
01-24-20, 02:40
It's totally understandable why you can't get laid in Ukraine. From your posting here you seem like a woman hater they are nothing but a number to you. That doesn't mean others can't have success.I get laid all the time. Any one claiming Ukraine is good makes makes me wonder. All you do is complain, your choice. I give guys destinations where there are actually hot girls. Yes, I do say Ukraine is average at best. Keep complaining, with zero trip reports.

DramaFree11
01-24-20, 04:10
Didn't you post that you're not even allowed to travel to Ukraine anymore because of some Drama with your ex? I can only imagine what you put this poor girl through. Your obsession with Kiev is super creepy. Half your posts on other forums on ISG directly or indirectly mention Kiev.

No wonder you love Hong Kong club in Tijuana so much, the same place that 90% of locals say is a rip-off. This is one place where the women are so desperate that they aren't going to say NO. I get the feeling even you have been rejected there though.Again bad advice. I lived in Kiev, you might want to read my posts. I would not wasn't my resources going back, complete waste of time. I have zero issues with rejection. I am the one hanging out in Moscow and you are claiming Kiev is good common on.

Member #4722
01-24-20, 17:19
I get laid all the time. Any one claiming Ukraine is good makes makes me wonder. All you do is complain, your choice. I give guys destinations where there are actually hot girls. Yes, I do say Ukraine is average at best. Keep complaining, with zero trip reports.Once again more lies. Anyone can click on my user name and see many detailed reports. You are a strange one for sure.

DramaFree11
01-31-20, 02:06
Once again more lies. Anyone can click on my user name and see many detailed reports. You are a strange one for sure.Not worth my time to comment. How you can even recommend Kiev makes me wonder.

Riina
02-18-20, 01:12
I find this case against the Hollywood guy very interesting. All he needs is one person on the jury that understands transactional relationships. It's a chuckle listening to these experts and yet a brainless guy like me knows the outcome.

Member #4722
02-18-20, 05:31
I find this case against the Hollywood guy very interesting. All he needs is one person on the jury that understands transactional relationships. It's a chuckle listening to these experts and yet a brainless guy like me knows the outcome.If you're talking about good ole Harvey, there's a big difference between paying a hooker for a blowjob and what this guy did. I'm sure there are a ton of women who went along with it willingly. But also this guy seems like the power went to his head and he couldn't take no for an answer. He probably did rape those women. Us normal pay 4 play mongers have it pretty good; we can anonymously go about our business with escorts. If you're famous it's probably a lot harder to get laid discreetly especially if these guys are married. This fat slob had the hottest wife too. Just goes to show no matter how good the pussy is that men eventually get tired of it.

TinyHippo
02-18-20, 18:23
If you're talking about good ole Harvey, there's a big difference between paying a hooker for a blowjob and what this guy did. I'm sure there are a ton of women who went along with it willingly. But also this guy seems like the power went to his head and he couldn't take no for an answer. He probably did rape those women. Us normal pay 4 play mongers have it pretty good; we can anonymously go about our business with escorts. If you're famous it's probably a lot harder to get laid discreetly especially if these guys are married. This fat slob had the hottest wife too. Just goes to show no matter how good the pussy is that men eventually get tired of it.Holy Gold Digger, you were not kidding about his wife. Looks like a 40 yo ex-Victorias secret model.

PhotoSlider
02-19-20, 03:20
Holy Gold Digger, you were not kidding about his wife. Looks like a 40 yo ex-Victorias secret model.She's a British fashion designer. She left Harvey after 10 years of marriage, when MeToo movement took off in 2017, and 90 women accused him. AFAIK after she dumped him, Weinstein didn't complain that all the fashion designers are terrible, that the good ones all left UK for greener pastures, and only rated 6 and below remain available for certain activities.

PhotoSlider
02-19-20, 03:29
This fat slob had the hottest wife too. Just goes to show no matter how good the pussy is that men eventually get tired of it.That's right!

I actually have no doubts and regrets about calling hourly girls while one of my beautiful rental GFs goes to beauty salon for a few hours or takes her finals at the university. Why do I do that? Because I need variety, I need new pussy, I need the girl showing new passion, discover her, seduce her into doing more than what usually happens.

I am also strictly against abuse in any shape or form. "No" literally means "no", I will not force anything, but I will surely try to convince. I will not use money, but I will try to make my Lady of the Night happy. And Ukrainian ladies certainly love to fuck!

Riina
02-21-20, 21:57
Exactly as I said.

Riina
02-23-20, 18:46
A bro posted this on USASG. I think it's relevant to Kiev.


I know that in Ukraine and Russia the attractive girls are getting bombed with offers from men. Men from around the world. Men that don't even plan visiting those countries. When I was there the girls I knew were getting Mohammads sending them money each day. These dudes were so needy. And the girls would pay attention to them for a couple minutes and get funded. They also get free trips to Turkey and Dubai. Even some of my workers in my office in Europe received trips to Dubai to "play". They came back with some cash and expensive Gucci or Louis Vuitton. Girls are * it's just about the price. They all cave in eventually. The hot ones get all things handed to them in life. They don't need to come here and be slaves. The average ones are the only girls interested in coming to this country. But the UK is more attractive. Americans tend to think immigrants are so lucky to come to "the best country in the world" But the way Immigration officials treat you when entering the country is very humiliating. Even for citizens coming back from trips abroad. So why should hotties even come? They don't want to really work a job. They can live a way better life in there own country or if necessary go to Germany and make money. With all these apps and websites there is just so many opportunities for hotties to get that cash.

And don't forget the local dudes have money too. Lots of IT workers are under 25 and they are making $3000 to $6000 per month. The market is so hot for skilled workers that HR managers are not able to find enough people. They are actually importing Indians into Eastern Europe and the Balkans. And they are getting paid as well. SO the attractive women can simply hook up with a nice young man and have whatever they want. The Euro agencies and massage businesses will only have old women and average women to offer.

Riina
02-24-20, 18:12
The other junk news I find interesting is the Italian guy that got deported. If that cuck understood that their's a touch of tute in every woman, he would have been prepared for the stick shoved up his ass by his bee wife.

PhotoSlider
02-24-20, 19:53
A bro posted this on USASG. I think it's relevant to Kiev.$3000 to $6000 per month for an IT person in Ukraine is greatly exaggerated. Maybe somewhere else in Eastern Europe and the Balkans, but unlikely in Ukraine, definitely not in Kiev, flooded with talent searching for jobs. And not everyone leaves Ukraine to work elsewhere.

To me this sounds like a rant of an unhappy monger. Maybe he cannot get it in US, and is not quite satisfied while visiting mongering destination. Hence the explanation of obstacles.

The solution is simple. Buy tickets, get to Kiev, and do it right.

I have communicated with two separate visitors that just returned from a week there. Far from the first visit for both, and they are ecstatic. Already scheduling next trip. No difficulties, adequate rates, great service, beautiful ladies. Way above 6, that our irrelevant naysayer steadily complains about.

Sure there is partial truth in that USASG post. Yes, there are visitors spending too much, and even those sending money remotely for nothing. Yes the girls obviously prefer younger partners, and few of them find acceptable suitors. How come however, that I get Valentine's Day messages from 13 Ukrainian girls ranging from 20 to 25? I am almost 60, and forget those messages, - while in Kiev I frequently have to chose between my regulars and reject some of them. And I am far from being unique in my happiness.

SSDD. Same shit, different day. Some succeed, some fail and build lengthy explanations staying in the Ivory Tower far away from the actual action on the ground.

Yes, there are some locals making decent money, and they have abundance of female attention, the market is ultra-competitive.

In my almost 20 years of flying to Kiev, I did have 3 requests to transfer money via Western Union. Refused. All 3 still meet with me while I visit. Paying remotely IMO is a form of masturbation. Girls certainly like it, and there is substantial category living off of it. Why do one of us should participate in that?

I wonder what would that USASG gentleman say after staying in Kiev for a year? Would he find a job paying so well? Would he be happy with ladies?

DramaFree11
02-24-20, 20:01
And don't forget the local dudes have money too. Lots of IT workers are under 25 and they are making $3000 to $6000 per month. The market is so hot for skilled workers that HR managers are not able to find enough people. They are actually importing Indians into Eastern Europe and the Balkans. And they are getting paid as well. SO the attractive women can simply hook up with a nice young man and have whatever they want. The Euro agencies and massage businesses will only have old women and average women to offer.

This is a great point, but many of the regular contributors are in complete denial about the truth. Many locals do have a lot of money, probably even more now, then when I was there, since it is so easy for them to work abroad now.

PhotoSlider
02-24-20, 23:11
Paying remotely IMO is a form of masturbation. Girls certainly like it, and there is substantial category living off of it. Why do one of us should participate in that?After giving it a thought, I see that shrinks and lawyers are frequently paid big bucks for nothing. Perhaps paying remotely for online conversation, promise of eternal youth and happiness over video-chat, is something like psycho therapy counseling. Why should Ukrainian girls do it for free?

The case is simple. Get paid remotely, and fuck young local dick. Not too bad of an arrangement.

Riina
02-25-20, 15:18
The case is simple. Get paid remotely, and fuck young local dick. Not too bad of an arrangement.Ever notice the big effort in photography by Ukrainians? There's a reason for that.

Kozerog
02-25-20, 18:49
...Mohammads sending them money each day...The hot ones get all things handed to them in life... When hot girls are young, yes life is easy, but they don't stay young forever. Which is why there are always plenty of former hot girls eager to work for moderate pay as agency dispatchers, mama sans, etc. But why work for moderate pay if it's so easy to squeeze money from "Mohammad"? Just use old photos, from back when they were still hot, or steal another girls photos. If online only, then doesn't matter if photo is real or not, right? Boris and Ivan can also use fake photos to get free money from Mohammed, and Boris and Ivan have the advantage of better understanding how Mohammad's sex-deprived male mind works. In other words, even if a few girls successfully scammed Mohammad in the past, the secret is out now and competition has surely ruined the market. That is, add up all the money of all the gullible Mohammads in the entire world, then divide by the number of scammers, and result is that most scammers aren't making much.

Similar situation with girls in the USA on seeking.com offering platonic or online-only or financial domination relationships. Add up all the money of all the simps willing to indulge such foolishness, divide by the number of girls trying these scams, and final result is that most such girls are getting nothing.

PhotoSlider
02-25-20, 19:51
The other junk news I find interesting is the Italian guy that got deported. If that cuck understood that their's a touch of tute in every woman, he would have been prepared for the stick shoved up his ass by his bee wife.Riina, can you be a little less cryptic and more informative in your messages please? Not that I am going to marry an Ukrainian, but you certainly piqued my curiosity.

PhotoSlider
02-25-20, 19:54
Ever notice the big effort in photography by Ukrainians? There's a reason for that.Hence my suggestion to meet the girls in person.

I have nothing against masturbation, or any other form of getting off, as long as it's consensual and nobody is hurt. To each his own. Yet my own preference is to consume the real product instead of a substitute.

TinyHippo
02-25-20, 23:08
$3000 to $6000 per month for an IT person in Ukraine is greatly exaggerated. Maybe somewhere else in Eastern Europe and the Balkans, but unlikely in Ukraine, definitely not in Kiev, flooded with talent searching for jobs. And not everyone leaves Ukraine to work elsewhere.

I wonder what would that USASG gentleman say after staying in Kiev for a year? Would he find a job paying so well? Would he be happy with ladies?I think you would be very surprised at the IT salaries in Kyiv. $3000 is very common for a python or java programmer under 30. In the US or London they would be making at least $8000 a month. So, $3000-4000 is a bargain and office girls (SMM, Adsense, data science, etc.) are making 1200€+ a month. Epam alone has over 5000 tech employees in UA. Odessa and the east is a very different story, but the young tech crowd in Kyiv has money.

PhotoSlider
02-26-20, 01:01
...In other words, even if a few girls successfully scammed Mohammad in the past, the secret is out now and competition has surely ruined the market. That is, add up all the money of all the gullible Mohammads in the entire world, then divide by the number of scammers, and result is that most scammers aren't making much...The key word here is "most". Some girls do, but resources are limited, and competition is fierce. I have wealthy local friends, they get a lot for free, and have no desire to sponsor long-term.

I also communicated a few times with scammers. They get easily frustrated when their attempts do not work. Desperation is obvious.

So, there's a lot of make-belief, wishful thinking and misconception around mongering activities in Kiev, as well as lots of variety, as it is a big and continually growing city with vibrant young population. Many girls do fish for easy money, doesn't mean they get it left and right, leaving the visiting boys empty-handed.

PhotoSlider
02-26-20, 21:52
I think you would be very surprised at the IT salaries in Kyiv. $3000 is very common for a python or java programmer under 30. In the US or London they would be making at least $8000 a month. So, $3000-4000 is a bargain and office girls (SMM, Adsense, data science, etc.) are making 1200+ a month. Epam alone has over 5000 tech employees in UA. Odessa and the east is a very different story, but the young tech crowd in Kyiv has money.My doubts were about boys under 25 making 6 K USD a month. 3-4 K USD monthly before taxes or paid cash for a person under 30 in his prime is believable. Happy to be mistaken. Seriously. Thanks for sharing your knowledge in a civilized manner).

Kiev is an interesting city. One can spend almost more than in New York, or stay within very modest limits.

MS Clive
02-28-20, 12:16
My doubts were about boys under 25 making 6 K USD a month. 3-4 K USD monthly before taxes or paid cash for a person under 30 in his prime is believable. Happy to be mistaken. Seriously. Thanks for sharing your knowledge in a civilized manner).

Kiev is an interesting city. One can spend almost more than in New York, or stay within very modest limits.Yes 2-3 k is more like it. I know because I run a software company in Kyiv.

Riina
02-28-20, 16:19
You guys ever notice that these you tube guys traveling Eastern Europe discreetly incorporate pussy into their videos. If we were back ten years, these same dudes would be on this forum describing their sexual conquests. I enjoy the content, but they're misleading viewers to believe sweet cuties can be found in the East. I can only imagine how many excited young men jump on a plane to only find reality.

I'm not discouraging travel. If you want success, you better have the cash and time. Most importantly, you better keep your Western values back home.

AntonySun1996
02-28-20, 16:24
When I was there the girls I knew were getting Mohammads sending them money each day. These dudes were so needy. And the girls would pay attention to them for a couple minutes and get funded.When would Mohammads send money to Kiev just for the attention of the girls when they can get high end Ukrainian and Russian escorts in Dubai?

Riina
02-28-20, 19:24
When would Mohammads send money to Kiev just for the attention of the girls when they can get high end Ukrainian and Russian escorts in Dubai?Anthony, the escorts in Dubai and the dreams in Ukraine are different things. The simplest of chat on social media can quickly lead to opening a Western Union account.

DramaFree11
02-29-20, 04:24
Yes 2-3 k is more like it. I know because I run a software company in Kyiv.Thank you for your input. Many of the veterans on the Kiev page are in complete denial about Kiev and nothing will change there mind. There is a lot more money in Kiev then most would ever understand.

Kozerog
02-29-20, 12:58
Anthony, the escorts in Dubai and the dreams in Ukraine are different things. The simplest of chat on social media can quickly lead to opening a Western Union account.https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=91697-tr62k

I had a number of online arguments with this Stryker guy, including on his Ukraine Fusion forum, where he banned me for negativity. If I recall correctly, Stryker himself spent $5000 on a Dream Connections tour, have $8000 to another agency to get introductions to overweight middle-aged single mothers, then finally met a few younger girls who he took them on expenses paid vacations to Venice and other pricey destinations before they dumped him. At least he got sime "intimacy" during these trips. Not sure how much intimacy, but surely price per act of intimacy at least $1000.

Another guy on Stryker's forum spent like $30 K on a girl and never got more than a kiss. When he took her to Paris after she accepted his marriage proposal, she insisted on separate bedrooms. At least the marriage fell through and he didn't get divorce raped. I spent a lot of time chatting with this guy. Clearly a sharp businessman (something to do with gas and oil drilling) and worth at least $10 million, but absolutely no sense where women are concerned. Turns to putty in the hands of these Ukrainian scammers.

Tons more guys like this. Really mind-boggling how men can be so stupid around women, especially Anglo world men around Ukrainian women.

DramaFree11
02-29-20, 17:19
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=91697-tr62k

I had a number of online arguments with this Stryker guy, including on his Ukraine Fusion forum, where he banned me for negativity. .This is the main reason I stopped going to Ukraine, there are scams everywhere now. Most are small, but very easy to get sucked in. Use to be a great place, but now, not good.

PhotoSlider
02-29-20, 20:51
...introductions to overweight middle-aged single mothers, then finally met a few younger girls who he took on expenses paid vacations to Venice and other pricey destinations before they dumped him...What a great writing style! IMHO ability to deliver thoughts clearly, in excellent literary language, certainly with proper grammar and spelling, strongly correlates with person's IQ. And vice versa, constant typos and simple laziness point to primitive thoughts or even lack of any.

Anyway, why do Anglo world men fall in such a predicament with huge expenses and not much if anything gained? There are certain patterns observed:

1. A form of masochism:

- She abused me, and I was so deceived! I spent so much money, and got nothing! And all the Ukrainian girls are ugly scammers!

And those complaints go on and on, because they deliver masochistic pleasure to the whining loser.

2. A form of gambling addiction. Similar risks, dangers, and loss patterns. Perception of getting the value:

- I am a wealthy man. Not everybody can afford this exclusive life style!

Let me explain this one in a little more detail.

When I order an hourly girl from agency, I know that at a minimum I'll get a BJ and vaginal intercourse. Simple very transactional business foundation. There is a chance of getting low quality resource, and most of the time I reject those in the delivery vehicle before paying anything. There is also a chance of getting a poor performer, who acts better during initial casting and then shuts down. In my experience that chance is under 30% when sourcing from established contacts, and I don't mind that loss within 1500-2000 UAH price segment. I consider this as an opportunity to convert better performers to my regulars. But this post is not about my successes.

Things get significantly more complicated with travel, marriage agencies and especially with paid online communication. The Fantasy is sold, the Promise, ever so elusive Happiness. Obviously girls and their management do not want to do much for free.

On one side, those Anglo world men do not dare to destroy that fancy temple, elaborately built in their imagination, with a request for a concise services list directly explaining aforementioned intimacy. Anglo world men assume that imminent paradise will unfold on its own, as it does in their heads (both upper and lower).

On the opposite side, girls (and managing them boys or whoever) have well established business processes with catch phrases and perfectly positioned marketing statements, actually saying nothing about mating or even kissing. That's where the disconnect happens. Anglo world men have false assumptions based on wrong expectations without due diligence, pre-qualification and validation.

Does it mean providers are scammers?

Only if they do not deliver on their promise in the contract.

If contract states "To have great time together with exceptional select females", then there's no breach in not providing sex to dissatisfied horny monger. And doesn't matter if he is ugly or tall, fit, sharply dressed and has great personality. Girls actually enjoy having a type of sadistic pleasure in dominating without delivering while being chased after.

If contract states "sex", but doesn't say how often, and doesn't mention GFE, then this is again the case of wrong expectations and assumptions.

Hookers in Amsterdam RLD do not promise GFE. Pay, fuck and move on! Are they scammers?

When inexperienced black jack player looses more than he can afford, is Casino at fault? Are card dealers and pit bosses merely shameless scammers?

Mongering in Kiev is like gambling. Even experienced card counter may have tactical setbacks, but with solid strategy and properly set expectations long term mongering chances in Kiev are way better than in black jack. And by saying long term, I mean many girls over at least multiple weeks if not months and years.

I am not talking about virtues of management and employees of marriage agencies around the world. And I agree with Kozerog, it is mind-boggling how men can be so stupid around women, doesn't matter Ukrainian or not.

I actually think it is not stupidity, but rather mental disorder one way or the other.

PhotoSlider
03-01-20, 01:13
...A form of gambling addiction...The more I think about it, the more similarities found.

5 weeks spent in the Great City of Kiev in September-October 2018, having a total of 50 girls in a pure burst of mongering insanity. First few days it was at least 3 girls one after another every 24 hours, while a semi-permanent rental GF was out of my bed at work in her office.

In a hindsight ordering those hourly girls did look like playing poker or blackjack.

- Give me another card please!

- Lilya, 2000 UAH + taxi, 168 cm, 52 kg, 2, 21 yo. Sending you pictures.

- Not bad. How soon at my door?

- 25 minutes.

- Deal.

Half an hour later I am assessing Lilya's assets and curves. Then later she takes a shower, not quite leaving my apartment yet, while I request via Viber:

- Give me another card please!

- Sonya, 1600 UAH + taxi, 172, 53, 2, 19 yo.

- Pass. I had her already last Friday. Give me a different one!

- Sure Paulina, 1800 UAH + taxi, 175,56, 3, 21 yo. 30 minutes at your entrance?

- Do you have her pictures?

- Here you go.

- Deal! Send her out.

- OK. Then Lilya can take the same car from your location.

At that moment Lilya appears out of the shower in all her shining glory, I pour her more champagne, we still have 20 minutes for a good BJ and sweet chat, when friend of mine calls. He wants to join the game at our table, and maybe strategic for upcoming weekend. And kaleidoscope keeps rotating, generating unimaginable pictures.

Girls like cards of different denomination, hand after hand after hand from the dealer, layout and alignment are constantly changing, wins and busts, ups and downs, the thrill of new face, new character, new interaction.

What a great addiction!

Riina
03-02-20, 01:47
Tons more guys like this. Really mind-boggling how men can be so stupid around women, especially Anglo world men around Ukrainian women.Most of that interest by ladies towards older guys is checking for a possible big score.

TinyHippo
03-03-20, 16:46
Most of that interest by ladies towards older guys is checking for a possible big score.What reason do they have to fuck an old guy when there is plenty of money in the younger crowd? If you flash money to attract some fish. You are going to find a few sharks. It is up to you to be the smart one.

MonkeyPaw
05-31-20, 04:56
I agree it is just too soon to project that things are just going to open particularly with International travel. I would love to be wrong when it comes to the freedom to travel. There are many announcements read between the lines, words like " hint " when it does open expect a ton of strings attached especially with foreigners.Brits may be banned from Thailand. Not sure if this is gossip or what? But I promise you, China / Hong issues and relations has lots to do with who and when gets to travel to Thailand. Just the same as Japan not opening up to China in July because it doesn't want to piss off the USA. But Thailand has drawn its alliance with China on this one. I mentioned this earlier. I wonder if the USA will also be banned as well, since they removed the 1. 3 billion import tax exemption on Thai goods. I guess there always the Philippines for those living in the USA to monger. I wonder what would ever happen if China over took the USA as #1 economy with regards to bilateral agreements?

https://pattayaone.news/thailand-to-reopen-to-tourists-in-july-but-brits-may-be-banned/

Stykler
05-31-20, 06:49
I wonder if Thailand will restrict the United States travelers, so they don't piss off the Chinese and now Hong Kong.Rather than being political, I think this will be more of a practical move. Why would countries who have done the hard (and expensive) yards by locking down early and strictly, thereby slowing the spread of the virus, allow residents of countries with let's say a more "laissez faire" approach to the virus' spreading similiar access to their country. It doesn't make much sense to them and I have to agree.

That's partly what this bloody virus is all about IMHO. Take me seriously governments or I will destroy you!

LittleBigMan
05-31-20, 08:34
Brits may be banned from Thailand. Not sure if this is gossip or what? But I promise you, China / Hong issues and relations has lots to do with who and when gets to travel to Thailand. Just the same as Japan not opening up to China in July because it doesn't want to piss off the USA. But Thailand has drawn its alliance with China on this one. I mentioned this earlier. I wonder if the USA will also be banned as well, since they removed the 1. 3 billion import tax exemption on Thai goods. I guess there always the Philippines for those living in the USA to monger. I wonder what would ever happen if China over took the USA as #1 economy with regards to bilateral agreements?

https://pattayaone.news/thailand-to-reopen-to-tourists-in-july-but-brits-may-be-banned/If one thinks politics isn't involved just an opinion then they are very limited to view of things! I agree with you that countries like South Korea / Japan need to tiptoe their way through their decision with China as we have seen if China doesn't like something now that they hold lots of the cards will let you know Australia is a good example just as the NBA found out too. I also agree on Thailand has on the surface have made their decision they got their head up China ass it will be a long time before their leaders see any light it is just the beginning as I noted before if things get really bad like a SEA confrontation a real decision will need to be made as others have noted the Thai people, in general, have negative things to say about the Chinese tourist but they don't make the decision for Thailand.

My real opinion right now they will slowly allow those who look like them enter since the numbers are reported low whether other countries are lying or not, based on the numbers coming out of UK and America many Thais I've had a conversation with and what comes out of their leader's mouth they have no idea why the numbers are so high nor do they care they have concluded through their ignorance that white folks are dirty that being said when it comes to both there will certainly be strings attached. In the U.S. certainly the last week's events Memorial weekend, then the giant pool party in Missouri that just reported a positive case which means how many did he or she infect and there were hundreds if not thousands. Now with all the rioting it would be interesting to see the spike if there is an outbreak it will push things a few months down the road for the U.S. in regards to international travel.

Just to make sure no one gets it wrong regardless of my views I hope I'm wrong and put the politics stuff aside they just open it up with no restrictions at all. I don't need to return home right now my mother 102 in an assisted living situation is well looked after and protected so far but if the virus doesn't get her it is a matter of time her age will and if that happens with the restrictions I won't even be able to return and that has caused a lot of lost sleep and that doesn't include all the legal responsibility I've been given to my nephew and nieces.

As for China taking over as #1, what will happen is what the USA Does best is try to get it back and that is using capital and politics to get it back those in the middle which are a lot will need to choose sides whether they want to or not and that includes Thailand.

MonkeyPaw
05-31-20, 08:53
If one thinks politics isn't involved just an opinion then they are very limited to view of things! I agree with you that countries like South Korea / Japan need to tiptoe their way through their decision with China as we have seen if China doesn't like something now that they hold lots of the cards will let you know Australia is a good example just as the NBA found out too. I also agree on Thailand has on the surface have made their decision they got their head up China ass it will be a long time before their leaders see any light it is just the beginning as I noted before if things get really bad like a SEA confrontation a real decision will need to be made as others have noted the Thai people, in general, have negative things to say about the Chinese tourist but they don't make the decision for Thailand.

My real opinion right now they will slowly allow those who look like them enter since the numbers are reported low whether other countries are lying or not, based on the numbers coming out of UK and America many Thais I've had a conversation with and what comes out of their leader's mouth they have no idea why the numbers are so high nor do they care they have concluded through their ignorance that white folks are dirty that being said when it comes to both there will certainly be strings attached. In the U.S. certainly the last week's events Memorial weekend, then the giant pool party in Missouri that just reported a positive case which means how many did he or she infect and there were hundreds if not thousands. Now with all the rioting it would be interesting to see the spike if there is an outbreak it will push things a few months down the road for the U.S. in regards to international travel..I totally agree, but you really have to fix that "comma" button on your keyboard.

Member #4698
05-31-20, 13:33
https://www.bangkokpost.com/thailand/general/1927132/japan-mulls-easing-entry-limits-for-thailand-3-other-countries-yomiuri

"Prime Minister Shinzo Abe's administration remains cautious towards softening the restrictions any time soon on China as any early reopening could trigger a backlash from the United States, which has been critical of the mainland's handling of the disease, the report said."

If one thinks politics isn't involved just an opinion then they are very limited to view of things! I agree with you that countries like South Korea / Japan need to tiptoe their way through their decision with China as we have seen if China doesn't like something now that they hold lots of the cards will let you know Australia is a good example just as the NBA found out too. I also agree on Thailand has on the surface have made their decision they got their head up China ass it will be a long time before their leaders see any light it is just the beginning as I noted before if things get really bad like a SEA confrontation a real decision will need to be made as others have noted the Thai people, in general, have negative things to say about the Chinese tourist but they don't make the decision for Thailand.

My real opinion right now they will slowly allow those who look like them enter since the numbers are reported low whether other countries are lying or not, based on the numbers coming out of UK and America many Thais I've had a conversation with and what comes out of their leader's mouth they have no idea why the numbers are so high nor do they care they have concluded through their ignorance that white folks are dirty that being said when it comes to both there will certainly be strings attached. In the U.S. certainly the last week's events Memorial weekend, then the giant pool party in Missouri that just reported a positive case which means how many did he or she infect and there were hundreds if not thousands. Now with all the rioting it would be interesting to see the spike if there is an outbreak it will push things a few months down the road for the U.S. in regards to international travel.

Just to make sure no one gets it wrong regardless of my views I hope I'm wrong and put the politics stuff aside they just open it up with no restrictions at all. I don't need to return home right now my mother 102 in an assisted living situation is well looked after and protected so far but if the virus doesn't get her it is a matter of time her age will and if that happens with the restrictions I won't even be able to return and that has caused a lot of lost sleep and that doesn't include all the legal responsibility I've been given to my nephew and nieces.

As for China taking over as #1, what will happen is what the USA Does best is try to get it back and that is using capital and politics to get it back those in the middle which are a lot will need to choose sides whether they want to or not and that includes Thailand.

I agree with both of you guys. In fact I was talking about this 10 days ago, maybe longer. The thing is I am very pissed off at the Chinese Communist Dictatorship. Let us not forget that they started this whole Pandemic crises through their lies, cover up, and most importantly the fact that they let their citizens travel outside of China after they knew there was a serious problem ie to infect the world. In addition, they have built offensive military bases on man made islands in international waters of the South China Sea, and as we speak are clamping down once and for all on the freedoms of Hong Kong in violation to a treaty they signed, are currently threatening military action against India & always threaten the existence of Taiwan, and let us not forget about their continuing unfair trade practices and intellectual property theft.

The bottom line is the world is already in a new Cold War with China whether we recognize it or not, but thanks to the pandemic, I think the world is finally waking up to these fact and nations like Thailand and the PI are going to have to choose which side they want to line up with. Maybe Thailand has already decided. I am not sure on that. But, I know every country, every citizen of the world is going to have to choose. I have made my choice. I won't buy Chinese manufactured products any longer if I can help it and here is a small trivial example: the other day I was shopping online for a pair of lightweight jeans from one of my favorite designers. The jeans were listed at 50% off. I was about to make the purchase until I noticed a review that said the product was manufactured in China and I did not make the purchase. My point being that on a much larger aggregate basis nations are going to have to decide where they import manufactured products from too.

So yeah, Thailand is a sovereign nation and can do what it likes in regards to the Chinese. It is a complex problem and may very well involve some economic pain in the beginning. I sincerely hope they make the right choice because I really like Thailand and the Thai people. but as I voiced this opinion before and I repeat it now: because of China's critical role in causing the world wide Pandemic and the fact that it is still lying about it; I will be personally insulted if the Thai Government were to let Chinese Nationals back into Thailand ahead of Americans, Europeans and Australians. So insulted that I might very well decide to boycott Thailand for my next few trips. There are plenty of other countries that I have not been to in quite a long time with pretty girls, nice beaches, and good food and where I can spend my hard earned money. Now maybe Thailand doesn't care about that. Fair enough, but they are still going to have to decide which side they want to be on in this new Cold War. I have a feeling they will eventually figure it out if they have not already, that Communist China is not their friend and more importantly can't be trusted. At least I hope so.

AssLover945
06-01-20, 04:30
I agree with both of you guys. In fact I was talking about this 10 days ago, maybe longer. The thing is I am very pissed off at the Chinese Communist Dictatorship. Let us not forget that they started this whole Pandemic crises through their lies, cover up, and most importantly the fact that they let their citizens travel outside of China after they knew there was a serious problem ie to infect the world. In addition, they have built offensive military bases on man made islands in international waters of the South China Sea, and as we speak are clamping down once and for all on the freedoms of Hong Kong in violation to a treaty they signed, are currently threatening military action against India & always threaten the existence of Taiwan, and let us not forget about their continuing unfair trade practices and intellectual property theft.

The bottom line is the world is already in a new Cold War with China whether we recognize it or not, but thanks to the pandemic, I think the world is finally waking up to these fact and nations like Thailand and the PI are going to have to choose which side they want to line up with. Maybe Thailand has already decided. I am not sure on that. But, I know every country, every citizen of the world is going to have to choose. I have made my choice. I won't buy Chinese manufactured products any longer if I can help it and here is a small trivial example: the other day I was shopping online for a pair of lightweight jeans from one of my favorite designers. The jeans were listed at 50% off. I was about to make the purchase until I noticed a review that said the product was manufactured in China and I did not make the purchase. My point being that on a much larger aggregate basis nations are going to have to decide where they import manufactured products from too.

So yeah, Thailand is a sovereign nation and can do what it likes in regards to the Chinese. It is a complex problem and may very well involve some economic pain in the beginning. I sincerely hope they make the right choice because I really like Thailand and the Thai people. but as I voiced this opinion before and I repeat it now: because of China's critical role in causing the world wide Pandemic and the fact that it is still lying about it; I will be personally insulted if the Thai Government were to let Chinese Nationals back into Thailand ahead of Americans, Europeans and Australians. So insulted that I might very well decide to boycott Thailand for my next few trips. There are plenty of other countries that I have not been to in quite a long time with pretty girls, nice beaches, and good food and where I can spend my hard earned money. Now maybe Thailand doesn't care about that. Fair enough, but they are still going to have to decide which side they want to be on in this new Cold War. I have a feeling they will eventually figure it out if they have not already, that Communist China is not their friend and more importantly can't be trusted. At least I hope so.https://www.wired.com/story/us-china-cybertheft-su-bin/?mbid=social_facebook&utm_brand=wired&utm_campaign=falcon&utm_medium=social&utm_social-type=owned&utm_source=facebook

Long one but a must read.

Rodwint2
06-01-20, 08:00
I agree with both of you guys. In fact I was talking about this 10 days ago, maybe longer. The thing is I am very pissed off at the Chinese Communist Dictatorship. Let us not forget that they started this whole Pandemic crises through their lies, cover up, and most importantly the fact that they let their citizens travel outside of China after they knew there was a serious problem ie to infect the world. In addition, they have built offensive military bases on man made islands in international waters of the South China Sea, and as we speak are clamping down once and for all on the freedoms of Hong Kong in violation to a treaty they signed, are currently threatening military action against India & always threaten the existence of Taiwan, and let us not forget about their continuing unfair trade practices and intellectual property theft.

The bottom line is the world is already in a new Cold War with China whether we recognize it or not, but thanks to the pandemic, I think the world is finally waking up to these fact and nations like Thailand and the PI are going to have to choose which side they want to line up with. Maybe Thailand has already decided. I am not sure on that. But, I know every country, every citizen of the world is going to have to choose. I have made my choice. I won't buy Chinese manufactured products any longer if I can help it and here is a small trivial example: the other day I was shopping online for a pair of lightweight jeans from one of my favorite designers. The jeans were listed at 50% off. I was about to make the purchase until I noticed a review that said the product was manufactured in China and I did not make the purchase. My point being that on a much larger aggregate basis nations are going to have to decide where they import manufactured products from too.

So yeah, Thailand is a sovereign nation and can do what it likes in regards to the Chinese. It is a complex problem and may very well involve some economic pain in the beginning. I sincerely hope they make the right choice because I really like Thailand and the Thai people. but as I voiced this opinion before and I repeat it now: because of China's critical role in causing the world wide Pandemic and the fact that it is still lying about it; I will be personally insulted if the Thai Government were to let Chinese Nationals back into Thailand ahead of Americans, Europeans and Australians. So insulted that I might very well decide to boycott Thailand for my next few trips. There are plenty of other countries that I have not been to in quite a long time with pretty girls, nice beaches, and good food and where I can spend my hard earned money. Now maybe Thailand doesn't care about that. Fair enough, but they are still going to have to decide which side they want to be on in this new Cold War. I have a feeling they will eventually figure it out if they have not already, that Communist China is not their friend and more importantly can't be trusted. At least I hope so.The Chinese Communist Party has used the Wuhan virus as the sneak attack that has hurt the United States (and the rest of the world) in a way more devious and cunning than the attack on Pearl Harbor. The US doesn't even acknowledge that a real state of war does now exist between the PRC and this country. The dead in the US is over 106,000 and counting from this CCP attack. Pearl Harbor was only 2,400+ dead and the World Trade Center was 2,977.

From my college political science class I remember the professors telling us that in the economic battles that fail to resolve disputes, the next step is usually a military conflict, war in other words. With the ongoing dispute between the PRCs blatant theft of the intellectual property from the rest of the world and primarily the US, the Wuhan virus should be seen as an outright attack at the United States. The PRC's Politburo knows that a military conflict with the United States cannot be won by the PRC. Only by subterfuge and deceit can the PRC destroy the US ability to defend itself in the long run when its economy is left in shambles. Just remember, President Xi / Pooh wants to take over the world while he is alive and kicking!

DramaFree11
06-01-20, 09:18
Correct about the most of the beautiful girls left the country 3-5 years ago. 600 Grv, will not work, unless you have not standards. $75-150 per session. Not cheap anymore and the hot girls are long gone. 6's are available, but not for little money, complete myth."getting a beautiful well-mannered girl rated above 8 for 1500-2000 UAH an hour are definitely higher than 50%. " This statement is completely wrong, false and delusional. It is not possible to have multiple hot girls in Kiev. These guys that claim the Kiev is this great place, leave out some many details out in there reports and forget to mention the time, energy, and money they put in there hobby. Nothing wrong with this, but be honest about it. There are very few 7-8's in Kiev especially to foreign guys and newbie. It has been like this for years, it is just a not new problem. If you find one you will be paying more the $150-300 range, even now. This pollster continues to make these ridiculous claims, how easy it is. It is simply not possible in any country, unless you get extremely lucky, to get High End girls and this price. He and his bodies continues to ignore the issues that are negative about Ukraine. He jokes about the scams and thinks it funny, far from that, when people get ripped off, big time on daily basis, but they forget to mention this.

I ask myself why would want to go to a place were it is one big scam. Restaurants are empty most of time, fake profiles,(are the norm, not the exception), night life does not exist (this was before the crisis, it will be even worse now) Scams are everywhere, Restaurants, Bars, Stores and agencies.

Just do a little research on google and you will just see how bad it is. People are fleeing the country in bus loads, because no opportunities, everyone is lying or trying to rip you off in one form of another.

That being said it might be slightly better for a few months while girls regroup, from living abroad, save there money, and prepare leave the country for better life. Yes leave the country, time for guys to address some of the real issues in Kiev, but that would be to easy and require some honesty.

Mogwai
06-01-20, 09:21
The thing is I am very pissed off at the Chinese Communist Dictatorship. Let us not forget that they started this whole Pandemic crises through their lies, cover up, and most importantly the fact that they let their citizens travel outside of China after they knew there was a serious problem ie to infect the world. By the time the virus reached Europe and the USA it was already pretty clear that it was very contagious and dangerous, but despite that many governments underestimated it and reacted too slow. Just like China did in the first place.

So China is not the only one to blame. China did not infect the world all by its own. The world infected itself.

PedroMorales
06-01-20, 10:57
The Chinese Communist Party has used the Wuhan virus as the sneak attack that has hurt the United States (and the rest of the world) in a way more devious and cunning than the attack on Pearl Harbor. The US doesn't even acknowledge that a real state of war does now exist between the PRC and this country. The dead in the US is over 106,000 and counting from this CCP attack. Pearl Harbor was only 2,400+ dead and the World Trade Center was 2,977.

From my college political science class I remember the professors telling us that in the economic battles that fail to resolve disputes, the next step is usually a military conflict, war in other words. With the ongoing dispute between the PRCs blatant theft of the intellectual property from the rest of the world and primarily the US, the Wuhan virus should be seen as an outright attack at the United States. The PRC's Politburo knows that a military conflict with the United States cannot be won by the PRC. Only by subterfuge and deceit can the PRC destroy the US ability to defend itself in the long run when its economy is left in shambles. Just remember, President Xi / Pooh wants to take over the world while he is alive and kicking!Can you and your friends take your thread to the BS thread? The Covid19 disaster in the West is due to mismanagement, mostly in the old folks' care homes. If you eat properly and live in a good area, you are at minimum risk. Your stupid attacks on China are a mirror image of attacks when Japan went ahead in the 1970's. The USA is not the centre of the world. The US built itself on industrial espionage and theft, in the mills and factories of Scotland to take but one example of many. They stole technology from Germany after both world wars.

The other thing spreading Covid19 is the global supply chain of which you are a part. HIV in the USA and from the USA is a good precedent in that regard.

Can you and your compatriots ease back a bit. Maybe go read The Ugly American and maybe ask your fellow Americans not to talk so loudly in public. Thais and others like to tone things down, to blend in, not to wear Hawaii shirts and roar for Big Macs. Capiche?

LittleBigMan
06-01-20, 11:38
By the time the virus reached Europe and the USA it was already pretty clear that it was very contagious and dangerous, but despite that many governments underestimated it and reacted too slow. Just like China did in the first place.

So China is not the only one to blame. China did not infect the world all by its own. The world infected itself.That is your opinion but I strongly disagree. Your opinion " by the time the virus reached Europe and USA " yes it was contagious and dangerous but the point N.B. made and you quoted was China hid how contagious and dangerous the virus was and allow Chinese to travel abroad you stated " very cleared " which was incorrect even China told the W. H. O. That it wasn't which caused a lot of countries even the USA To underestimate the problem. January 25th of 2020 there was only one case of Virus being reported in the USA As I remember reading.

Sure many countries underestimated and had no real idea or just not prepared to handle such a problem but the SOURCE OR LACK OF IT COMES FROM China!

EihTooms
06-01-20, 15:41
That is your opinion but I strongly disagree. Your opinion " by the time the virus reached Europe and USA " yes it was contagious and dangerous but the point N.B. made and you quoted was China hid how contagious and dangerous the virus was and allow Chinese to travel abroad you stated " very cleared " which was incorrect even China told the W. H. O. That it wasn't which caused a lot of countries even the USA To underestimate the problem. January 25th of 2020 there was only one case of Virus being reported in the USA As I remember reading.

Sure many countries underestimated and had no real idea or just not prepared to handle such a problem but the SOURCE OR LACK OF IT COMES FROM China!President of the United States, Donald Trump, was repeatedly told by his intelligence agencies in early January, all through the rest of January, all throughout February and into the first half of March about the true pandemic risks of the virus contrary to what China was trying to pawn off on the world about it.

Therefore, anything he said about it after early January, such as, "It's one person coming in from China, It's going to be just fine, We've got it totally under control, This is their (the Democrats) new hoax, China has been working very hard to contain the Coronavirus, The United States greatly appreciates their efforts and transparency, It will all work out well, In particular, on behalf of the American People, I want to thank President Xi!", and on and on and on was a confirmation of China's lies, known to be lies by the President of the United States, for the entire world to accept. That includes lying to you, me, Fauci, Pelosi, Biden, everyone on the planet who was not in on those classified meetings with Trump from early January on and privy to his Presidential Daily Briefings during that time.

I would argue Trump's lies about it in his position as POTUS were ultimately more damaging to more countries around the world and certainly to the USA than Xi's because, historically speaking at least, the rest of the world would be inclined to believe the USA would not stand by and allow lies to go unchallenged much less repeat and confirm lies coming out of China about something so potentially disastrous to so many. But, apparently, this time we did.

2 months in the dark: the increasingly damning timeline of Trump's coronavirus response.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2020/04/07/timeline-trumps-coronavirus-response-is-increasingly-damning/


Early January: Intelligence officials begin offering ominous, classified warnings about the virus to Trump in the Presidents Daily Brief. The warnings will persist into February.

Early January: In a report to the director of National Intelligence, a State Department epidemiologist warns that the virus is likely to spread across the globe and could result in a pandemic, and the Defense Intelligence Agencys National Center for Medical Intelligence comes to the same conclusion, per the New York Times.

Member #4698
06-01-20, 16:30
I would argue Trump's lies about it in his position as POTUS were ultimately more damaging to more countries around the world and certainly to the USA than Xi's because, historically speaking at least, the rest of the world would be inclined to believe the USA would not stand by and allow lies to go unchallenged much less repeat and confirm lies coming out of China about something so potentially disastrous to so many. But, apparently, this time we did.

EihTooms, we are trying to have a grown up discussion here. Aside from your usual blame everything on Trump psychosis, you now excuse the Chinese Communists from their crime of knowingly allowing the Wuhan virus out of China to infect Europe, Asia, and Africa and lying about it by claiming that, that was Trump's fault as well. 555. You are soooooooooo predictable. Go back to the rubber room ie the American Politics thread where you belong. You are embarrassing yourself.

EihTooms
06-01-20, 17:06
EihTooms, we are trying to have a grown up discussion here. Aside from your usual blame everything on Trump psychosis, you now excuse the Chinese Communists from their crime of knowingly allowing the Wuhan virus out of China to infect Europe, Asia, and Africa and lying about it by claiming that, that was Trump's fault as well. 555. You are soooooooooo predictable. Go back to the rubber room ie the American Politics thread where you belong. You are embarrassing yourself.You know I didn't write any such thing, Natty. Please stop lying about what I post. Adults shouldn't need to do that to make their point.

Member #4698
06-01-20, 17:09
You know I didn't write any such thing, Natty. Please stop lying about what I post. Adults shouldn't need to do that to make their point.Huh? I am quoting directly from the 3rd paragraph in the post you made this very morning. Did you not post this:


I would argue Trump's lies about it in his position as POTUS were ultimately more damaging to more countries around the world and certainly to the USA than Xi's because, historically speaking at least, the rest of the world would be inclined to believe the USA would not stand by and allow lies to go unchallenged much less repeat and confirm lies coming out of China about something so potentially disastrous to so many. But, apparently, this time we did.

EihTooms
06-01-20, 17:11
Huh? I am quoting directly from the 3rd paragraph in the post you made this very morning.No, Natty, not one word of what you wrote is a "quote" from my post. I didn't excuse China from anything. And I didn't say their lying about it was Trump's fault.

BTW, you are welcome to visit the American Politics room any time to grandly refute anything I've written that you seem to think is not based on fact.

Franciscass
06-02-20, 05:30
No, Natty, not one word of what you wrote is a "quote" from my post. I didn't excuse China from anything. And I didn't say their lying about it was Trump's fault.

BTW, you are welcome to visit the American Politics room any time to grandly refute anything I've written that you seem to think is not based on fact.Biggest screw up with China was after SARS not shutting down the wet markets. Their existence exponentially increased the risk of transmission of virus's from animals to humans. That is unforgivable and they have to accept responsibility.

When the virus was first recognized by a doctor in Wuhan they silenced him. Their explanation was that he was unnecessarily creating panic, thinking or just hoping he was wrong and it would go away. He was right, they were wrong.

It took off and spread outside China.

From there it came down to how different countries dealt with what was a seriously contagious pandemic. Some, New Zealand, South Korea, Taiwan, Germany and Thailand to mention some recognized the danger and took measures to contain it, some didn't until it was too late the UK, and the US being among those that delayed and are now paying a high price in lives lost.

To blame China for how it started and why it wasn't contained is justified. To blame China for the failures of other countries to take it seriously is not justified. They had choices and made the wrong ones.

Let's be real. The current China bashing is mostly political particularly where there are pending elections.

Finding an enemy to fear is tried and tested from the Jews in Hitler's Germany to disease invested hoards of rapist immigrants in Trump's Americas. Sadly it works. Too many want to point the finger rather than look in the mirror.

On China's growing influence, it's real. One can argue the merits of accepting their aid but there will be consequences when payment comes due.

Trying to find countries to visit which are not in one way or another not already under this influence is going to get harder and harder.

Stevie69
11-21-20, 23:34
"Professional or otherwise". So, every man who is not in a relationship and 100% faithful?


According to Urban Dictionary. A person who is actively researching and on the prowl for sexual intercourse with a professional or otherwise. This mostly happens away from home in a foreign Country or City, but can happen right in your own town..

I prefer the word hobbyist.

Stevie69
11-21-20, 23:56
After her "is it a problem?" message, you should have just agreed to meet her for lunch where she wanted and then gone to McDonald's for lunch. While biting into your DOuble McCheese, you would have started to get her desperate and then angry messages.


Ok so there is a little anecdote off of tinder that can be used as a shareable moment, or even a teachable one.

So I matched with girl, we sent text, and before long that became chit chat through the day. This led to an agreement to meet over lunch. Here's where it goes to shit. She wants me to take her to this place, basically insists on it - https://g.co/kgs/4Uppdj that's right, the jerk wanted me to take her to a 5 star restaurant on the water for our first meeting! Are you fucking kidding me!? But I'm willing to spot that there may be a culture gap and I don't want to insinuate intent across text so I tactfully reply, well, here's the chatlog:

Me: its a little more than what I wanted for lunch. It is also a little far down the way.
Me: can you meet me a little closer to independence square / maiden maybe?
Kristina: Take taxi.
Kristina: It's problem?
Me: not a problem, just a little uncomfortable to go that far for lunch. Is it a problem for me to pick a restaurant a little closer to independence square area?
Kristina: Well, since I give a piece of myself and this is a problem for you, I don't think that we need to meet at all.
Me: Wow. If this is a reflection of who you really are as a person, then I am glad we did not meet.

Ok totally duplicitous, dodged a bullet there, WHEW! But on a different level of thinking it makes me wonder what kind of a miserable bastard she must be on the inside, to think in that manipulative way. To approach a social site designed to meet new people with the conniving mindset to gain what? A lunch. Really?? She is then the same kind of person who throws her hands up to the sky and says "hasa diga eebowai" (look it up) when she finally has a moment of clarity, and looks around her to find that her life has become nothing but a sad sack of shit. For this kind of toxic person life is not too short, on the contrary, it is almost entirely too long. And I hope she lives forever hahaha.

Stevie69
11-22-20, 00:07
Please, the first meeting is one drink at 8 or 9 PM in the evening, too late for dinner, and early enough to head to your place if you hit it off or she is a (semi) pro. AIf, after one drink, things seem okay, buy another round. Make sure YOU order the drinks, and pay each drink immediately after you get it (just in case you have to leave suddenly, you tell the waiter / bartender). After 3-5 drinks, either close the deal and head to your place or, if she is really a nice girl, agree to meet for a walk in the park the next day.

I had good experiences with some nice girls, really marriage material girls, who are so concerned with being categorized as gold-diggers that they refuse to accept anything! After 2 hours of conversation, I have to nearly force them one girl to let me buy her a coffee, and another one to accept 75 UAH for her trip back to her city.


Had some dates on Tinder I met a lady here for dinner. Polyuvannya Na Ovets it's like an Asian / steak restaurant. Yup you guessed it 5 star. Had to take an Uber there of course. I liked the lady plus wanted to see a different part of Kiev. I guess it was old Kiev.

I notice a lot of these ladies on Tinder they want to go to Avalon for drinks. I might have to check that place out? Is it good place?

DramaFree11
11-22-20, 01:21
After her "is it a problem?" message, you should have just agreed to meet her for lunch where she wanted and then gone to McDonald's for lunch. While biting into your DOuble McCheese, you would have started to get her desperate and then angry messages.This a normal thing in Kiev the girls get a percentage from the restaurant and bars. I have talked about this many times, but the guys that use to write about how great Kiev is, some how they claim this is not an issue. The new guys posts are great and honest. The old timer panted a different picture of Kiev, that was just not true. Another example of a reason not to go to Kiev.

LuvMexicanas
11-01-21, 17:17
Normally, I agree with most your posts, this one probably not. Kiev has declined dramatically, other destinations not even close to what is happening in Ukraine. Top end talent is leaving, as soon as they can get the hell out of there, this includes the business world.

As others mentioned you could find a party every night of the week, now not even Fridays.

You can find cheap girls in Ukraine, but this will take, a lot of work, time and money. Under $100, even $200, you will probably be very disappointed. I am banging way better looking girls then I was in Kiev, not even close, so there are still beautiful girls all over the world. You probably will not find hot girls in Kiev, unless you are working there or living there full time, even then you will probably top out at a 6.So when were you last in Kiev?

DramaFree11
11-02-21, 00:36
L. M whenever you want to go let me know, but that require you getting off your computer and stop complaining. Lived there done that. You were also invited to MYT, but you never went. You just complain and try and get others in trouble. You can read my reports everything is well documented.

Yes, I talk about the decline of Kiev, but I also speak of other destinations that are better. I also compliment others when they write great reports. You might want to do the same.

Sooner or later Admin will figure out you game, you are just a big trouble maker and extremely jealous. I am in MTY every second weekend, having a great time, something you know very little about.

LuvMexicanas
11-02-21, 15:49
L. M whenever you want to go let me know, but that require you getting off your computer and stop complaining. Lived there done that. You were also invited to MYT, but you never went. You just complain and try and get others in trouble. You can read my reports everything is well documented.

Yes, I talk about the decline of Kiev, but I also speak of other destinations that are better. I also compliment others when they write great reports. You might want to do the same.

Sooner or later Admin will figure out you game, you are just a big trouble maker and extremely jealous. I am in MTY every second weekend, having a great time, something you know very little about.No need to get so defensive. I merely asked a fair and simple question to help me and others assess the relevancy of your posts related to Kiev, which you avoided answering. Thus, I will ask again. When were you last in Kiev?

WyattEarp
03-01-22, 17:01
If you think of things from Putin's perspective, he's already jumped in the deep end and needs to achieve a "win" at all costs. He's already a pariah to the rest of the world, and will probably be found guilty of war crimes. That means his only future lies within Russia, and he won't even have that if he fails. His supporters might endure and forgive all the sanctions and hardships IF he reclaims all (or a substantial part) of Ukraine. If he doesn't, he's finished.

At a minimum, IMHO, Putin will do his utmost to occupy and subjugate Kyiv itself. He already has the separatist regions, and he formally recognized them before invading, so he can't claim that as a win. In order for him to be able to claim a victory to justify the invasion, and be worthy of the losses Russia has already incurred, Kyiv is the prize he'll want.Jmsuttr,

Your thoughts on the Ukraine situation are very insightful. I think Putin's days as the head of Russia are limited. Putin is launching a new cold war. 2022 is a much different time and place then 1948. Russians are now more linked to the West. Modern communications make closing off a country much more difficult. These will be dark days for the Russian economy.

Putin's future is in the hands of the military leadership on whether they will support a coup. Economic pressures will rally the citizenry. The soldiers have mothers, fathers, sisters and brothers. From what we hear, Putin is isolated and has perhaps psychotic yearnings for the past. Russia likely can't project its power like the days of the old Soviet Union. I'm not sure he is inspiring confidence.

The Russia-China thing seems to be a little joke for the Chinese. I'm sure they enjoyed Putin poking the West and challenging Western hegemony. However, it remains to be seen that the Chinese even believed Putin would invade the Ukraine. China might be more self-sufficient than Russia, but they are also very much more interlinked with Western economies. While China might relish a Taiwan that they view as China, they have never been as aggressive as the former Soviet Union in projecting military power around the globe. So it's debatable whether they view Putin's desire to cobble back the Soviet-Russian empire favorably.

Kozerog
03-01-22, 19:52
If you think of things from Putin's perspective, he's already jumped in the deep end and needs to achieve a "win" at all costs. ... Bottom-line, if there's any way to (relatively) safely get out of Kiev to a city that isn't in the line of fire, I'd seriously be exploring that option. Again, I hope I'm wrong, and I'd certainly like to hear what others think about possible scenarios. Wishing you and your friends luck.Unfortunately, you are correct. As I wrote earlier, my view was that Russia was "winning" before the invasion, by hurting Ukraine's economy more than invasion preparation was hurting Russia, but maybe view inside Russia was different. Or maybe Putin saw Ukraine rearming and figured it was either now or never.

As for invading, there is no easy way to stop insurgency without horribly brutal tactics, so what I would have done (after knocking out Ukrainian air defenses) is establish a Russian controlled corridor between Chernobyl and Transnistria (between Kyiv and Zhytomyr) avoiding large towns, thus surrounding Ukraine on all sides (blockade of Black Sea ports). Maintain that corridor clear by any means necessary (artillery and air response to attacks, periodic fuel air bombardment of corridor itself, landmines), allow civilian traffic to go west but not east, then just wait. Use professionals to establish and maintain the corridor, use conscripts to launch diversionary attacks elsewhere. Assuming the corridor idea is feasible, thus is far less risky and destructive than entering cities.

My regular left Kyiv for her village 100 km away immediately after the invasion, where she has family. Other than some shortages in stores, no signs of war near her village.

JamesXBrown
03-02-22, 17:56
That's Baldr! Unbelievable that!I was just wondering what had become of Bald & Bankrupt!

Seriously gripping YT vid. Glad they made it to the border.

Jmsuttr
03-02-22, 21:05
Another option: Border to Romania or _real_ Moldova. Not to mix up with Russian friendly PMR!I've seen reports of a Chinese student who was shot while trying to get out of Kyiv. And also reports of China's concern about their citizens facing hostility in Ukraine because China isn't supporting anti-Russia sanctions. What that could mean is that China might use their influence to try to broker some kind of temporary ceasefire to get their people out. If something like that happens, that could be a window of opportunity for others to leave, as well.

Obviously there are a lot of variables involved, and Russia might not agree or might make unacceptable demands, but China has influence that no other country has. If they're expressing concern, Russia might listen. And I also saw a report that said Russia might be willing to discuss a ceasefire when they next meet with the Ukrainian delegation.

Again, the devil will be in the details, but anyone in Kyiv (or elsewhere) who wants to leave should be ready to move quickly if and when a window opens. Good luck to all, and may you be safe!

Jmsuttr
03-02-22, 22:09
1. Rumors or info about Putin's physical or mental health.

I've seen speculation about Putin having some kind of serious physical ailment. And, while it's pure speculation and probably impossible to verify, if there's any truth to it that would be supportive of the idea that Putin is acting to cement his legacy and believes he doesn't have a lot of time to do so. I looked at a few recent pics of Putin and I thought his face looked a bit bloated and not as healthy as in recent years, but it's certainly possible I could be seeing something that isn't there. Whatever the case, I'm keeping an eye out for any info on the health issue. As far as mental health is concerned, the relevance is obvious. So I'm also watching for reports that Putin is "losing it" or otherwise falling into a bunker mentality that would hinder rational decision making.

2. The effects of both macro and micro sanctions.

I'm sure the Kremlin anticipated and planned for expected sanctions. But there may be some macro (country-level) sanctions they didn't foresee, like the freezing of much of their central bank reserves. But what I'm watching with great interest is the effect of micro-level sanctions, such as turning off Apple and Google Pay, and also Visa and MasterCard. Other examples are major shipping companies refusing to service Russia, Boeing denying parts and service for Russian planes, and Intel+AMD+TSMC refusing to provide microchips. All of these are like the proverbial pieces of straw on the camel's back. It's hard to know if one, or some combination, will be a back-breaker, but they're worth watching because I don't think the Kremlin could have anticipated all of them.

3. What's happening with oligarchs.

So far all the reports I've seen about oligarchs shows them walking a fine line. Some have called for negotiations and peace, but in a way that avoids directly contravening Putin. BUT, actions speak louder than words. And today Roman Abramovich has put Chelsea Football Club up for sale and committed to put any profits into a fund for Ukraine relief. Anyone who follows football understands what a huge development this is, and how much pressure Abramovich must be feeling to give up one of his prize possessions. It's my understanding he feared sanctions or seizure and that motivated him to sell while he still could. So I'll be watching what happens to other oligarchs and how much pressure and pain is brought to bear. To what extent they can influence Putin is unclear, at this point, but losing their support would be a significant development.

Just my two-cents worth about stuff that might be worth watching. Hoping and praying for the safety of Ukraine!

RacShack
03-03-22, 07:02
So I've been going to Germany alot for sex for nearly 20 years.

I had constantly thought about visiting Ukraine / Kiev but never got around to it. Lack of all day sex clubs like they have in Germany put me off, among a few other things.

Any any update on HulaHoops and his crew? Hope they are safe.I'm sure by now their knee deep in cheap pussy by now? What could possibly be stopping them? Wherever they are hope their safe after making some very bad choices!

Kozerog
03-03-22, 08:44
1. Rumors or info about Putin's physical or mental health.

I've seen speculation about Putin having some kind of serious physical ailment.You have to read between the lines of both USA and Russian propaganda, not just one side. Another possibility is that Putin is acting crazy with threats of nuclear war to get the USA to finally take his demands seriously. From the Russian military point of view, demanding that Ukraine remain permanently neutral or aligned with Russia (thus not in NATO or EU, both of which will eventually be replaced by a United States of Europe) is not unreasonable. This issue goes back to 2008 and Russians have lost patience at being ignored so long.

IMO, USA and Ukraine have both been very foolish to be so obstinate about this issue. Capitulating to Russia's demands on this issue is probably the best way to end this war quickly. Russian military doesn't care about the suffering of Russian oligarchs or Russian people, and only Russian military can carry out a coup.

The Cane
03-03-22, 12:37
You have to read between the lines of both USA and Russian propaganda, not just one side. Another possibility is that Putin is acting crazy with threats of nuclear war to get the USA to finally take his demands seriously. From the Russian military point of view, demanding that Ukraine remain permanently neutral or aligned with Russia (thus not in NATO or EU, both of which will eventually be replaced by a United States of Europe) is not unreasonable. This issue goes back to 2008 and Russians have lost patience at being ignored so long.

IMO, USA and Ukraine have both been very foolish to be so obstinate about this issue. Capitulating to Russia's demands on this issue is probably the best way to end this war quickly. Russian military doesn't care about the suffering of Russian oligarchs or Russian people, and only Russian military can carry out a coup.The reason this happened is because Putin saw the West as weak. Thanks to Donald Trump, American democracy is as weak and divided as its ever been. He drove a wedge between the world's most powerful democracy and its NATO allies. And he sucked up to one of the world's most dangerous dictators. This is why we have war! Peace through strength. And war through weakness! Putin wants Russia to be a great nation? Then it should act like one then.

It can begin by stop threatening its neighbors. This is why they don't like Russia and seek to join NATO. Putin should stop poisoning his political opposition. And dissidents must stop "falling" out of windows. There's a start to "making Russia great again". Ultimately nothing good comes from kissing a dictator's ass. No, if Putin isn't careful, he's going to have his Ruskie ass handed to him on a platter. Maybe even by his own people. It isn't just the oligarchs getting slammed. The everyday Russian is being hurt too. And, it's only just getting started.

Mojo Bandit
03-03-22, 18:02
You have to read between the lines of both USA and Russian propaganda, not just one side. Another possibility is that Putin is acting crazy with threats of nuclear war to get the USA to finally take his demands seriously. From the Russian military point of view, demanding that Ukraine remain permanently neutral or aligned with Russia (thus not in NATO or EU, both of which will eventually be replaced by a United States of Europe) is not unreasonable. This issue goes back to 2008 and Russians have lost patience at being ignored so long.

IMO, USA and Ukraine have both been very foolish to be so obstinate about this issue. Capitulating to Russia's demands on this issue is probably the best way to end this war quickly. Russian military doesn't care about the suffering of Russian oligarchs or Russian people, and only Russian military can carry out a coup.

Obstinate and foolish about freedom? You must not live in a free country if you do not understand. We will kill and die before we give up freedom. If you think that is obstinate than you must not have freedom. we will kill and die for freedom, we have 20,000 nuclear warheads that have "live free or die" stamped on them. People of Ukraine made a choice that they would put their lives to preserve their "freedom". That is how much they like being free. The second you give into demands of a foreign power that is not offering something in return then you have given away your freedom.

European democracies do not and The United States of America does not do "capitulating" to dictators. That is called "appeasment" and people saw what happened when people appeased Hitler after he rolled into Poland. Nonappeasement has been the center of all foreign policy of democaracies ever since - it is not done. That history lesson was learned by eveyone and no country lets a foreigner dictator make their foreign policy. Putin knows this becuase he is not stupid. The United States and NATO have a nuclear arsonal too.

Anyone paying attention knows that his access to that graft got cut off in 2014 after they ran the corrupt Putin puppet our of the country in a popular uprising. That is exactly what happen and then money stopped flowing to Putin. Putin wants economic gain - not 'security' (his nuclear arsonal is all the security he needs) that is why the western countries are making him pay economically.

So if you really want to read between the lines the question becomes is Putin suicidal? Are the Russian military Suicidal? - when he starts making nuclear threats that is suicidal talk - if he uses a nuclear weapon then Moscow will go up in a thermal vacum next- so are we to assume he has the mentality of an emotionally unstable suicidal teenager becasuse no one listens to his unstable demands?

Putin knew that no one was going to give into his "demands" for the reasons I just listed, so his demands were bullshit cover. no one gives in to appeasement , and he is smart so if Putin really wanted to get Ukraine to do something would have used his intelligence to "persuade" the Ukrainians through trade and incentives, Russia is not a filthy rich country but they have things to offer, but he does not choose this path. Instead he chose threats. He is not being honest about what he really wants or he would not ask for unrealistic things. He is not stupid. So most people will say that the reasons he gives for invading are not the real reasons and even if appeasement was an option it would not matter.

Explorer8939
03-03-22, 18:10
Not much to report, some explosions in Kyiv but we are safe. Travelling to the border right now is not feasible. Russians have promised safe exit to civilians but of course one has to dodge shelling and missile fire. We are fine, staying away from angry Ukrainians and keeping our head down. No mongering to be had and it is not on our mind. Other Ukrainians are still somewhat suspicious of us. Blaming us for our countries not intervening however we are avoiding them and they have stopped attacking us. Such a shame that a country like this has become useless for mongering.Expect the Russians to try to encircle Kyiv over the next week. If you hear of fighting around Boryspil airport, then the encirclement is almost complete. After the encirclement, you have no chance of getting out of Kyiv without Russian approval. At that point, there will be a siege, unless Kyiv surrenders immediately, and things will become very unpleasant.

If there is still a chance to get out, you might want to take it now. There may be random shelling along the way, but there is going to be massive shelling in Kyiv soon.

Unless the Russian army fails to encircle Kyiv, that would be a world changing event, like Stalingrad.

Golfinho
03-03-22, 18:30
Obstinate about freedom? You must not live in a free country if you do not understand. We will kill and die before we give up freedom. If you think that is obstinate than you must not have freedom.. The second you give into demands of a foreign power that is not offering something in return. You have given away your freedom..Obstinate about freedom in the Land of the Free gets you cancelled and labelled a domestic terrorist. And, no, this has nothing to do with political parties, or which one is occupying the POTUS Office. Your people who would 'kill and die' before giving up their freedoms have surrendered to a vaccine mandate and submitted to a government that represents corporate interests and the oligarchs and not the interests of The People. Don't be naively taken in and misdirected by interests that only want to make Ukraine safe for capitalist exploitation. And, no, this has nothing to do with socialist communism -- that's been consigned to the dustbin of history a generation ago. Freedom starts at home. If you cared about freedom, you wouldn't let these bandits steal your mojo, you'd take care of your own business instead of minding someone else's.

Golfinho
03-03-22, 18:30
Obstinate about freedom? You must not live in a free country if you do not understand. We will kill and die before we give up freedom. If you think that is obstinate than you must not have freedom.. The second you give into demands of a foreign power that is not offering something in return. You have given away your freedom..Obstinate about freedom, in the Land of the Free gets you cancelled and labelled a domestic terrorist. And, no, this has nothing to do with political parties, or which one is occupying the POTUS Office. Your people who would 'kill and die' before giving up their freedoms have surrendered to a vaccine mandate and submitted to a government that represents corporate interests and the oligarchs and not the interests of The People. Don't be naively taken and misdirected by interests that only want to make Ukraine safe for capitalist exploitation. And, no, this has nothing to do with socialist communism -- that's been consigned to the dustbin of history a generation ago. Freedom starts at home. If you cared about freedom, you wouldn't let these bandits steal your mojo, you'd take care of your own business instead of minding someone else's.

Jmsuttr
03-03-22, 18:53
You have to read between the lines of both USA and Russian propaganda, not just one side. Another possibility is that Putin is acting crazy with threats of nuclear war to get the USA to finally take his demands seriously. From the Russian military point of view, demanding that Ukraine remain permanently neutral or aligned with Russia (thus not in NATO or EU, both of which will eventually be replaced by a United States of Europe) is not unreasonable. This issue goes back to 2008 and Russians have lost patience at being ignored so long.

IMO, USA and Ukraine have both been very foolish to be so obstinate about this issue. Capitulating to Russia's demands on this issue is probably the best way to end this war quickly. Russian military doesn't care about the suffering of Russian oligarchs or Russian people, and only Russian military can carry out a coup.Almost anything is theoretically "possible" but, without evidence, it's pure speculation. And the problem with reading between the lines is that it's all to easy to see what you want to see. That's why my post gives specific areas in which I'm scanning the news and looking for concrete evidence.

Also, the state of the evidence right now indicates that things are not proceeding in a way that's favorable for Putin. What he thought would be a quick operation has turned into a quagmire. As to Russia's demands, the current state of affairs has essentially flushed the status quo ante down the toilet, along with Russia's previous list of demands. Right now the Ukrainians would rather die defending their land rather than give in to Putin. And the US is fine with supporting Ukraine and squeezing Russia with "death by a thousand cuts" sanctions.

There's no question that Russia can militarily prevail, eventually. But at what cost and will they (Russia) bleed out economically during the meantime? And what happens if Russia takes Kyiv? Putin's idea that Russian domination would be welcomed has been exposed as a fantasy. So that means that any occupation would require force, which means continued costs for pariah-state Russia and never-ending sanctions.

In other words, in all the probable (as opposed to possible) end-scenarios, I don't see any that end well for Putin. And, as far as a coup is concerned, there are various powerful individuals and groups in Russia who I'm sure are quite imaginative. But, even without a coup, what happens if the Russian military experiences unacceptable losses, or desertions, or both? Putin has certainly surrounded himself with a personal Praetorian Guard, but those who are personally loyal to him are not enough to get the job done in Ukraine. Putin is a strongman dictator, which means that weakness or failure will inevitably lead to his demise.

Jmsuttr
03-03-22, 19:18
The reason this happened is because Putin saw the West as weak. Thanks to Donald Trump, American democracy is as weak and divided as its ever been. He drove a wedge between the world's most powerful democracy and its NATO allies. And he sucked up to one of the world's most dangerous dictators. This is why we have war! Peace through strength. And war through weakness! Putin wants Russia to be a great nation? Then it should act like one then.

It can begin by stop threatening its neighbors. This is why they don't like Russia and seek to join NATO. Putin should stop poisoning his political opposition. And dissidents must stop "falling" out of windows. There's a start to "making Russia great again". Ultimately nothing good comes from kissing a dictator's ass. No, if Putin isn't careful, he's going to have his Ruskie ass handed to him on a platter. Maybe even by his own people. It isn't just the oligarchs getting slammed. The everyday Russian is being hurt too. And, it's only just getting started.I'm doubtful that any current or recent president (Bush, Obama, Trump, Biden) would have had any material effect on Putin's ambition to rebuild Greater Russia. Over the years Putin has said on many occasions that the dissolution of the Soviet Union was a great tragedy. His desire to reverse that event meant that it was only a matter of time and that which country he chose (Ukraine, Poland, Baltics) would be only a matter of which opportunity presented itself first.

FYI, I saw an interview with Garry Kasparov, Russian dissident and former world chess champion, in which he blamed Obama for showing weakness when he proclaimed a "red line" in Syria (over use of chemical weapons) and then failed to do anything when it was crossed. In Kasparov's view, that showed Putin that tough talk was unlikely to be backed up by action. Not trying to start a political debate, since that doesn't serve much purpose right now, but just showing that there's no shortage of people at whom we can point the finger.

So, while it might make people on the left or right feel better to blame one politician or the other, IMO this has been brewing for a long time and Putin was going to do what he wanted, no matter what.

The Cane
03-03-22, 22:13
I'm doubtful that any current or recent president (Bush, Obama, Trump, Biden) would have had any material effect on Putin's ambition to rebuild Greater Russia. Over the years Putin has said on many occasions that the dissolution of the Soviet Union was a great tragedy. His desire to reverse that event meant that it was only a matter of time and that which country he chose (Ukraine, Poland, Baltics) would be only a matter of which opportunity presented itself first.

FYI, I saw an interview with Garry Kasparov, Russian dissident and former world chess champion, in which he blamed Obama for showing weakness when he proclaimed a "red line" in Syria (over use of chemical weapons) and then failed to do anything when it was crossed. In Kasparov's view, that showed Putin that tough talk was unlikely to be backed up by action. Not trying to start a political debate, since that doesn't serve much purpose right now, but just showing that there's no shortage of people at whom we can point the finger.

So, while it might make people on the left or right feel better to blame one politician or the other, IMO this has been brewing for a long time and Putin was going to do what he wanted, no matter what.First of all yes, Putin is one of the last commies in power left who thinks that the demise of the Soviet Union was a bad thing. I know that the majority of the people who lived under the thumb of the Soviet Union, including the Russian people themselves, don't agree him. And yes again, Obama showed absolute weakness when his "red line" in Syria was crossed, and then he did nothing (I saw the same interview). But the four years of the Trump presidency caused considerably more damage and only exacerbated things, and can't be simply glossed over as inconsequential and having no significant influence on what has happened. As I said, he damaged the strongest democracy the world has ever known and energized damaging division within his own country, he drove a dangerous wedge between America and its NATO allies, and he kissed up to Putin and the Ruskies in a way that no other American president ever has. It was really truly stunning to watch it. Now please understand me well. My comments are not about "left" and "right". No, they are about "Trumpism" and the incredible damage its done to America and the world. It will be much studied and written about. You're damn right the Ruskies wanted Trump in power and did things to help make that happen. "Russia if you're listening"! (Remember who said that? Putin had to love it). No my friend, this is not about left and right. In fact, a couple of guys on the right were 100% correct. "Peace through strength" (Ronald Reagan) and "I looked in his eyes and saw three letters: KGB" (John McCain).

Vagabundo1
03-04-22, 01:26
Pornhub and onlyfans turned off for Russia. Game Over?

Jesus. Talk about a weapon of mass destruction.

Kabukicho
03-04-22, 03:18
As I said, he damaged the strongest democracy the world has ever known and energized damaging division within his own country, he drove a dangerous wedge between America and its NATO allies, and he kissed up to Putin and the Ruskies in a way that no other American president ever has. It was really truly stunning to watch it. Yep, during his presidency, I saw a wtf?

If trump was able to be just as strong against our allies, as to putin, we'd be okay but that was not the case as well as I had another wtf, when the trump lovers didn't ever seem to see that.

If he also could have been more to putin, the same way he was with China, we'd have been better off too. China just waited until his 4 yrs were up.

It was just too odd, it felt like putin had something on him, as if trump would be capable of being embarassed by something.

when trump was pressured to check with putin about the allegations of bounties on usa troops, trump deflected/protected russia. that was disgusting.

Golfinho
03-04-22, 03:34
I'm doubtful that any current or recent president (Bush, Obama, Trump, Biden) would have had any material effect on Putin's ambition to rebuild Greater Russia. . His desire to reverse that event meant that it was only a matter of time and that which country.I'm doubtful that any recent president or the (only) current one would have had any material effect on the ambitions of the neocons and dual loyalists in control of US foreign policy to effect regime change in Russia in order to control and exploit their natural resources and economy. Their desire and policy meant it was only a matter of time before they instigated another war on Russia's border.

Nounce
03-04-22, 04:39
Nord Stream 2 LOL.

Mojo Bandit
03-04-22, 04:54
Obstinate about freedom, in the Land of the Free gets you cancelled and labelled a domestic terrorist. And, no, this has nothing to do with political parties, or which one is occupying the POTUS Office. Your people who would 'kill and die' before giving up their freedoms have surrendered to a vaccine mandate and submitted to a government that represents corporate interests and the oligarchs and not the interests of The People. Don't be naively taken and misdirected by interests that only want to make Ukraine safe for capitalist exploitation. And, no, this has nothing to do with socialist communism -- that's been consigned to the dustbin of history a generation ago. Freedom starts at home. If you cared about freedom, you wouldn't let these bandits steal your mojo, you'd take care of your own business instead of minding someone else's.No body has stolen my mojo it is in fine form but thank you for the concern. But I do not understand why you responded to my comment. You seem to want to change the subject. I was stating a fact that no demacracy gives into appeasement of a dictator. You seem to be worried about other things. Vaccines and being accused of being a terrorist. And I feel for you, you seem to have genuine complaints. Its just that I am not under any mandate to get a vaccine and no one is calling me a terrorist. But I am sorry that you have to deal with these problems. I am still going to have to stick to my original point though. It is a fact that no democracy is going to turn their foreign policy over to the demands of a spoiled brat dictator.

Xpartan
03-04-22, 06:13
You have to read between the lines of both USA and Russian propaganda, not just one side. Another possibility is that Putin is acting crazy with threats of nuclear war to get the USA to finally take his demands seriously. From the Russian military point of view, demanding that Ukraine remain permanently neutral or aligned with Russia (thus not in NATO or EU, both of which will eventually be replaced by a United States of Europe) is not unreasonable. This issue goes back to 2008 and Russians have lost patience at being ignored so long.

IMO, USA and Ukraine have both been very foolish to be so obstinate about this issue. Capitulating to Russia's demands on this issue is probably the best way to end this war quickly. Russian military doesn't care about the suffering of Russian oligarchs or Russian people, and only Russian military can carry out a coup.Right, this is why Putin is methodically leveling Kiev - "the mother of all Russian cities" - and Kharkiv where there are more ethnic Russians than Ukrainians. Because he's scared of NATO. Yeah, it's totally not unreasonable to demand that an independent country disarm (having peaceful Russia as a neighbor, no less) and also spread its legs and butt-cheeks while it's at it.

You wouldn't be working for RT by any chance, would you? Because you're spreading the same garbage.

I've heard that garbage before.

Jmsuttr
03-04-22, 07:06
First of all yes, Putin is one of the last commies in power left who thinks that the demise of the Soviet Union was a bad thing. I know that the majority of the people who lived under the thumb of the Soviet Union, including the Russian people themselves, don't agree him. And yes again, Obama showed absolute weakness when his "red line" in Syria was crossed, and then he did nothing (I saw the same interview). But the four years of the Trump presidency caused considerably more damage and only exacerbated things, and can't be simply glossed over as inconsequential and having no significant influence on what has happened. As I said, he damaged the strongest democracy the world has ever known and energized damaging division within his own country, he drove a dangerous wedge between America and its NATO allies, and he kissed up to Putin and the Ruskies in a way that no other American president ever has. It was really truly stunning to watch it. Now please understand me well. My comments are not about "left" and "right". No, they are about "Trumpism" and the incredible damage its done to America and the world. It will be much studied and written about. You're damn right the Ruskies wanted Trump in power and did things to help make that happen. "Russia if you're listening"! (Remember who said that? Putin had to love it). No my friend, this is not about left and right. In fact, a couple of guys on the right were 100% correct. "Peace through strength" (Ronald Reagan) and "I looked in his eyes and saw three letters: KGB" (John McCain).But my point is simply that Putin's mentality and ambition long preceded Trump and that, had Trump never become president, Putin's trajectory would have remained the same.

So, since this has been stewing in Putin's noggin since probably the early 90's, looking for a causal event in the last few years runs the risk of being influenced by recency bias.

Whether one hates Trump and blames him for all the ills of the world, or does the same with Obama or Biden, the fact remains that Putin was going to go down this path no matter what. So whoever happened to be president of the US, or France, or PM of the UK, or Chancellor of Germany, is essentially irrelevant because no one was going to prevent Putin from trying to reclaim the glory of Greater Russia.

The only possible way a former or current world leader might have made a material difference is if he or she had successfully brought about regime change in Russia. But that was never in the cards and never seriously discussed, until now.

So feel free to blame Trump, while others blame Bush, Obama, or Biden. As far as I'm concerned, you're all equally correct, and equally wrong. That's because I still maintain that none of those leaders would have changed the reality Ukraine faces today.

Bill1963
03-04-22, 09:49
First of all yes, Putin is one of the last commies in power left who thinks that the demise of the Soviet Union was a bad thing. I know that the majority of the people who lived under the thumb of the Soviet Union, including the Russian people themselves, don't agree him. And yes again, Obama showed absolute weakness when his "red line" in Syria was crossed, and then he did nothing (I saw the same interview). But the four years of the Trump presidency caused considerably more damage and only exacerbated things, and can't be simply glossed over as inconsequential and having no significant influence on what has happened. As I said, he damaged the strongest democracy the world has ever known and energized damaging division within his own country, he drove a dangerous wedge between America and its NATO allies, and he kissed up to Putin and the Ruskies in a way that no other American president ever has. It was really truly stunning to watch it. Now please understand me well. My comments are not about "left" and "right". No, they are about "Trumpism" and the incredible damage its done to America and the world. It will be much studied and written about. You're damn right the Ruskies wanted Trump in power and did things to help make that happen. "Russia if you're listening"! (Remember who said that? Putin had to love it). No my friend, this is not about left and right. In fact, a couple of guys on the right were 100% correct. "Peace through strength" (Ronald Reagan) and "I looked in his eyes and saw three letters: KGB" (John McCain).Let's get one thing straight here after that drivel you wrote.

100% of this situation falls at the feet of Biden and the fools he has surrounded himself with.

There is zero blame on trump or Obama.

Weak losers blame others for their mistakes and failures.

Biden has had 15 months to steer this in a totally different direction.

The Ukrainian people are paying a price now because Biden is a useless tool.

Kozerog
03-04-22, 15:36
Not trying to start a political debate, since that doesn't serve much purpose right now, but just showing that there's no shortage of people at whom we can point the finger.
IMO, political debate absolutely serves a purpose now. Ukraine is about to be destroyed and USA is going to be severely weakened if Russia is handed over to the Chinese. We need to discuss what, if anything, went wrong in order to know what to do next.

I'm completely in agreement with John Mearsheimer (https://www.mearsheimer.com/) that Ukraine was terribly mishandled by the USA, starting in 2008 (G W Bush / Dick Cheney administration). What should have been done is declare that NATO and EU would eventually be replaced by a United States of Europe, which would never include Ukraine, and that Finland, Baltic States and Moldova would be kept demilitarized provided Russia kept Kaliningrad enclave, western Belarus and western Ukraine demilitarized. Nice clean division between west and east Europe, with a demilitarized buffer zone in between. Good fences make good neighbors.

I have no doubt the Ukrainians are brave, determined, filled with angry energy, and thus will fight like lions. Problem is, lions are stupid animals, and what is needed now is not physical courage but rstger brains and moral courage, meaning the courage to make unpopular decisions.

The argument that "we" don't appease dictators is keyboard warrior talk. USA most definitely "appeased" Stalin when it allowed him to swallow up the Baltic States and eastern Europe. USA "appeased" China / Russia by allowing a division of Korea and then a division of Vietnam, before we threw in the towel completely on Vietnam. USA "appeased" China regarding Tibet. USA "appeased" Russia when Russia invaded Georgia and USA did nothing but issue some ineffective sanctions, then same story with Crimea. Etc. USA picks its battles and it walks away when the situation is hopeless, which is normal behavior in the real world, though maybe not in keyboard warrior land.

If Ukrainians really are fully prepared to die, see their family and friends die, and see their country bombed into rubble, before they concede anything to Russia, well okay, it's their lives and their country. Problem I see is that Ukrainians don't actually think this, but have become confused by big words like "appeasement" and "sovereign" (as in "sovereign right to decide their own future") so that they can't think straight. In particular, they haven't really thought about which hill they are truly prepared to die on.

I understand that Ukrainians don't like living under Russia's boot. But the Russian people have it worse, because they are directly under Putin's control, rather than at one remove from Putin. And the ancestors of both modern Ukrainians and modern Russians lived under Stalin's boot and the Tsar's boot before that. The Chinese people live under a more fiendishly repressive regime than than of Stalin, while North Korea makes China look like paradise. Most of Africa is worse than Russia. Etc, etc.

Right now, Ukrainians are taking an enormous risk, hoping they can frustrate Russia long enough to cause a coup and whoever replaces Putin will cancel the invasion. If this plan works, great. Otherwise, Ukraine could end up economically destroyed and presided over by some thug puppet ruler who makes Putin look like a nice guy. This is what happened to Chechnya. Downside risk is very high, odds very poor. Best course of action is thus to simply give Putin everything he wants, so that the bleeding is stopped and Ukraine can begin the difficult work of repairing all the damage. If the keyboard warriors don't like this, let them personally infiltrate Russia and attempt to assassinate Putin, but stop playing games with other people's lives.

EatALotOpus
03-04-22, 15:50
Pornhub and onlyfans turned off for Russia. Game Over?

Jesus. Talk about a weapon of mass destruction.If you don't mind I'll steal your post and post it in Opinions American politics. Thanks.

Xpartan
03-04-22, 21:05
But my point is simply that Putin's mentality and ambition long preceded Trump and that, had Trump never become president, Putin's trajectory would have remained the same.

So, since this has been stewing in Putin's noggin since probably the early 90's, looking for a causal event in the last few years runs the risk of being influenced by recency bias.

Whether one hates Trump and blames him for all the ills of the world, or does the same with Obama or Biden, the fact remains that Putin was going to go down this path no matter what. So whoever happened to be president of the US, or France, or PM of the UK, or Chancellor of Germany, is essentially irrelevant because no one was going to prevent Putin from trying to reclaim the glory of Greater Russia.

The only possible way a former or current world leader might have made a material difference is if he or she had successfully brought about regime change in Russia. But that was never in the cards and never seriously discussed, until now.

So feel free to blame Trump, while others blame Bush, Obama, or Biden. As far as I'm concerned, you're all equally correct, and equally wrong. That's because I still maintain that none of those leaders would have changed the reality Ukraine faces today.And Obama's inability (or lack of desire) to adequately confront him back in 2014 was a profound and costly mistake.

But Trump's incessant, baffling and, quite frankly, nauseating bootlicking has certainly emboldened him to a huge degree.

Xpartan
03-04-22, 21:32
First of all yes, Putin is one of the last commies in power left who thinks that the demise of the Soviet Union was a bad thing. I know that the majority of the people who lived under the thumb of the Soviet Union, including the Russian people themselves, don't agree him. And yes again, Obama showed absolute weakness when his "red line" in Syria was crossed, and then he did nothing (I saw the same interview). Three things.

1. Let's not forget who was screaming at the top of their lungs against pulling America into yet another war (we were already involved in two others).


Republicans, in particular, have turned against Syrian airstrikes. A week ago, Republicans were divided about evenly: 35% favored and 40% opposed military airstrikes in response to the governments alleged use of chemical weapons. Today, Republicans oppose airstrikes by an overwhelming 70% to 21% margin, with 51% saying they are strongly opposed.https://www.pewresearch.org/politics/2013/09/09/opposition-to-syrian-airstrikes-surges

2. Let's also remember that President went ahead and asked the authorization from Congress.


So when the president stepped into the sunny Rose Garden that Saturday morning, he announced that he had made two decisions: first, that the U.S. should act against Syria, and second, that he would seek explicit authorization from Congress to do so. With that, the administration set out on a different campaign than the military one we had been preparing for: to convince the American people that intervening in Syria was in the countrys interest.

What transpired over the next month was one of the most controversial and revealing episodes in eight years of Obamas foreign policy. Despite the administrations strong advocacy and support from a small minority of hawkish politicians, Congress and the American people proved strongly opposed to the use of force.3. Let's also remember that ASSAD AND THE RUSSIANS did cave in.


In the end, however, the threat of military action and a surprise offer by Russia ended up achieving something no one had imagined possible: the peaceful removal of 1,300 tons of Syrias chemical weapons (there have been reports of stray weapons and widespread use of industrial chemicals like chlorine, but no evidence of systematic deception on the part of the Syrian government).

By October 2013, without a bomb being dropped, the Bashar Assad regime had admitted having a massive chemical weapons program it had never before acknowledged, agreed to give it up and submitted to a multinational coalition that removed and destroyed the deadly trove. From my perspective at the Pentagon, this seemed like an incontrovertible, if inelegant, example of what academics call coercive diplomacy, using the threat of force to achieve an outcome military power itself could not even accomplish.Of course, as soon as the military option was off the table, repubs immediately changed their tune, but that's what they always do. Can a leopard change its spots?

The point is that removing chemical weapons from Syria was a huge victory for the US and the world. It's amazing that so many people think of it as a defeat after everything that was acomplished.


According to U.S. estimates, at more than 1,300 metric tons spread out over as many as 45 sites in a country about twice the size of Virginia, Syrias arsenal of chemical weapons in 2013 was the worlds third-largest. It was 10 times greater than the CIAs (erroneous) 2002 estimate of Iraqs chemical weapons stash, and 50 times larger than the arsenal Libya declared it had in late 2011. Because of the size and scope of the threat, Syrias chemical weapons were the administrations top concern during the first several years of the crisis.https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2016/07/obama-syria-foreign-policy-red-line-revisited-214059/

The same can't be said about Obama's reaction to Russia's aggression in 2014, which was muted and weak, but blaming him for Syria is not fair at all.

Rocko20
03-04-22, 21:56
But Trump's incessant, baffling and, quite frankly, nauseating bootlicking has certainly emboldened him to a huge degree.Blaming Trump for the actions of Putin is like blaming Biden for the botched Afghanistan withdrawal after a 20 year occupation. Or Blaming Trump or Biden for Americas 900,000+ COVID deaths.

There's nothing one man can do, to avoid any of this stuff. American politicians only give a damn about one thing: re-election.

The Cane
03-04-22, 23:02
Let's get one thing straight here after that drivel you wrote. There is zero blame on trump. Weak losers blame others for their mistakes and failures.Talk about some drivel. And Donald Chump did plenty of just that. Blaming other people for anything and everything and not owning up to his own failings for four solid years. It got him impeached twice he was so bad. The man was the worst president in American history because he didn't respect nor live up to our democratic standards and ideals. He didn't even try to. He had nothing but admiration for strong man dictators around the world, and still does. Five year-old accountability:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MYr2XteXUB8

The Cane
03-04-22, 23:07
But my point is simply that Putin's mentality and ambition long preceded Trump and that, had Trump never become president, Putin's trajectory would have remained the same.May I please borrow your crystal ball? Or, at least tell me where you got yours. So I can go and get me one too.

Jmsuttr
03-05-22, 00:50
IMO, political debate absolutely serves a purpose now. Ukraine is about to be destroyed and USA is going to be severely weakened if Russia is handed over to the Chinese. We need to discuss what, if anything, went wrong in order to know what to do next.

I'm completely in agreement with John Mearsheimer (https://www.mearsheimer.com/) that Ukraine was terribly mishandled by the USA, starting in 2008 (G W Bush / Dick Cheney administration). What should have been done is declare that NATO and EU would eventually be replaced by a United States of Europe, which would never include Ukraine, and that Finland, Baltic States and Moldova would be kept demilitarized provided Russia kept Kaliningrad enclave, western Belarus and western Ukraine demilitarized. Nice clean division between west and east Europe, with a demilitarized buffer zone in between. Good fences make good neighbors.

I have no doubt the Ukrainians are brave, determined, filled with angry energy, and thus will fight like lions. Problem is, lions are stupid animals, and what is needed now is not physical courage but rstger brains and moral courage, meaning the courage to make unpopular decisions..Was meant primarily with Ukrainians in mind. For any who are sitting in a comfortable chair, and typing on a keyboard in the warmth of a nicely heated and illuminated abode, feel free to analyze, pseudo-analyze, blame, pontificate, justify, or whatever, to your heart's content.

But such activities have little point or worth for people who are dodging bullets and bombs. For them it's about survival. And it's those unfortunates who are uppermost in my concerns.

Crusader560
03-05-22, 00:51
I just saw that Bolton said. If Trump would have won his re election. He would have pulled the USA out of NATO.

And that is what Putin wanted. So, he could put the USSR back together. WOW.


Blaming Trump for the actions of Putin is like blaming Biden for the botched Afghanistan withdrawal after a 20 year occupation. Or Blaming Trump or Biden for Americas 900,000+ COVID deaths.

There's nothing one man can do, to avoid any of this stuff. American politicians only give a damn about one thing: re-election.

Jmsuttr
03-05-22, 01:20
And Obama's inability (or lack of desire) to adequately confront him back in 2014 was a profound and costly mistake.

But Trump's incessant, baffling and, quite frankly, nauseating bootlicking has certainly emboldened him to a huge degree.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H_7tA9lesNo

I recently found this video (about 10 minutes) in which Niall Ferguson (noted author and historian) gives his assessment. He specifically points the finger at mistakes made by Obama, Trump, Biden, and Merkel. I'm sure that list could be expanded but the point is that many bear a degree of responsibility. What percentage you choose to assign to any individual politician is really a subjective decision. But it was essentially a synergy of failures and they're all accountable for not doing enough to thwart Putin.

Even so, I keep coming back to my point that Putin was never going to be deterred because this is a crusade for him. It's always been a question of when, not if. And, if you took Merkel out of the equation and inserted a hardliner, or took Trump away and inserted Clinton, we'd still be arriving at the same place. The ONLY thing that would have stopped Putin is if he'd been deposed or killed, nothing else. Unfortunately, since Russia is a nuclear power, eliminating Putin (from the outside) has never been in the cards.

PedroMorales
03-05-22, 02:30
America is to blame for this shtt show. The Democrats, the party of Orgy Island and small dick syndrome. Hunter Biden etc. Rusisans are pounding (with lead) the Nazis who are rotting on the streets for dogs to feed on. XPartan and others should take their tin foils off, put a tin hat on and join up.

As Scarlet O'Hara might have said: War over, the price of pussy is going to go sky high this year.

Mojo Bandit
03-05-22, 05:39
I didn't mean to offend anyone.

As I've said before, when we came we didn't expect Putin to invade. We just assumed he was talking nonsense. Now of course that he invaded, I am the first to admit we made a terrible decision. If my reports, help others that are stuck in the country or who may have even considered coming here then at least I helped one person.

I am sure there are many people who read this thread but don't reply that had the same idea as us and may even still be in the country.

To any foreign volunteer: do not believe the Ukrainian propaganda! The military situation in Ukraine is dire, the media will have you think that Ukraine is winning. That is not the case whatsoever! Please be careful.

What news I watch has not had media reports saying that Ukraine is winning. I watch major news orginzations like Reuters and BBC and there is not media reports saying that Ukraine is winning. None. I do not know where others get their news. All people are saying is that Ukrainians are putting up a better fight than Russian thought they would but not under any delusion that they are are winning. The foreign fighters who go there are doing so on moral grounds and I hope they have some understanding that what they will need to do is guerrilla warfare because that is what needs to be happening right now. Ukrainians cannot hope to match the Russians on convententional terms. No one I read is saying they are winning.

I was ultralight infantry and we studied guerrilla warfare. Yes I should not be armchair quarterbacking because I am not ont he ground, but I heard that the Ukraine military called for their forces to go guerrilla warfare. I was light infantry for 6 years. We studied and practiced how to operate and move in small groups to be undetected and then link up and do larger operations. Although that depends on woods for cover too. They need to send them some on-off road scooters, or dual sport motorcycles (muffle the shit out of them) and have a guy on the back with a rocket launcher. And do fast attack and stick and run techiniques. Smaller quicker agile groups can do damage with those Javelins (shoulder operated missile) we are sending them and some RPGs. They could do link up operations where 30 or 40 of them meet up near the Russian formation on On-off road dual sport motorcycles and hit them hard and then escape cross country throught the trees. If I was 20 years younger I would conisder going there myself.

NRandom940
03-05-22, 06:09
What news I watch has not had media reports saying that Ukraine is winning. I watch major news orginzations like Reuters and BBC and there is not media reports saying that Ukraine is winning. None. I do not know where others get their news. All people are saying is that Ukrainians are putting up a better fight than Russian thought they would but not under any delusion that they are are winning. The foreign fighters who go there are doing so on moral grounds and I hope they have some understanding that what they will need to do is guerrilla warfare because that is what needs to be happening right now. Ukrainians cannot hope to match the Russians on convententional terms. No one I read is saying they are winning.

I was ultralight infantry and we studied guerrilla warfare. Yes I should not be armchair quarterbacking because I am not ont he ground, but I heard that the Ukraine military called for their forces to go guerrilla warfare. I was light infantry for 6 years. We studied and practiced how to operate and move in small groups to be undetected and then link up and do larger operations. Although that depends on woods for cover too. They need to send them some on-off road scooters, or dual sport motorcycles (muffle the shit out of them) and have a guy on the back with a rocket launcher. And do fast attack and stick and run techiniques. Smaller quicker agile groups can do damage with those Javelins (shoulder operated missile) we are sending them and some RPGs. They could do link up operations where 30 or 40 of them meet up near the Russian formation on On-off road dual sport motorcycles and hit them hard and then escape cross country throught the trees. If I was 20 years younger I would conisder going there myself.One scenario that is likely in the future, and somewhat unsettling.

Russia will destroy Ukrainian forces in population centers and it will become a guerilla war (unless Ukraine signs Russia's peace terms). This guerilla war will only be kept alive by NATO countries supplying the guerrillas with weapons. This would leave Russia with no choice but to attack a NATO country directly.

I really think Putin may be senile and completely irrational.

Xpartan
03-05-22, 07:38
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H_7tA9lesNo

I recently found this video (about 10 minutes) in which Niall Ferguson (noted author and historian) gives his assessment. He specifically points the finger at mistakes made by Obama, Trump, Biden, and Merkel. I'm sure that list could be expanded but the point is that many bear a degree of responsibility. What percentage you choose to assign to any individual politician is really a subjective decision. But it was essentially a synergy of failures and they're all accountable for not doing enough to thwart Putin.

Even so, I keep coming back to my point that Putin was never going to be deterred because this is a crusade for him. It's always been a question of when, not if. And, if you took Merkel out of the equation and inserted a hardliner, or took Trump away and inserted Clinton, we'd still be arriving at the same place. The ONLY thing that would have stopped Putin is if he'd been deposed or killed, nothing else. Unfortunately, since Russia is a nuclear power, eliminating Putin (from the outside) has never been in the cards.He's contradicting himself all the time. First he admits that Ukraine is a special project for Putin who's trying to restore the empire. Then in the same breath, he blames Biden for lifting objections to Nord 2 as if that emboldened Russia to invade. Makes no sense. That's not an analyses, that's a collection of soundbites.

Xpartan
03-05-22, 07:41
America is to blame for this shtt show. The Democrats, the party of Orgy Island and small dick syndrome. Hunter Biden etc. Rusisans are pounding (with lead) the Nazis who are rotting on the streets for dogs to feed on. XPartan and others should take their tin foils off, put a tin hat on and join up.

As Scarlet O'Hara might have said: War over, the price of pussy is going to go sky high this year.Deep breath, comrade. Deep breath.

Fred54
03-05-22, 09:30
For donation I saw a lot of different stuff, even people asking to drop money on cards.

I assume there will be also some scam in these demands.

Personally I used this way.

https://bank.gov.ua/en/news/all/natsionalniy-bank-vidkriv-spetsrahunok-dlya-zboru-koshtiv-na-potrebi-armiyi

And I also keep some money to help straight my Ukrainian contacts straight if they need / ask.

I am in regular contact with 5 people, 3 have left to Europe, 2 want to stay in Ukraine with one in Kiev.

The Cane
03-05-22, 14:52
Let's not forget who was screaming at the top of their lungs against pulling America into yet another war (we were already involved in two others).So, maybe Obama shouldn't have drawn a line in the sand then. Say what you mean, and mean what you say.

Travv
03-05-22, 16:56
Kyiv Ukraine—As shells have begun exploding in the heart of Kyiv, museums have rushed to protect their most prized, valuable pieces: the original artwork of once-in-a-generation talent Hunter Biden.

"The Louvre may have Van Gogh and the Mona Lisa, but here we have Coke On Coke by Hunter Biden," said museum owner Ivan Rostyslav. "I will never forget when he sold us this piece, he said to me, 'Ivan, I don't know how I got here or where my pants are but can you get me to the airport?' Ha! What an artist he is!

According to sources, most of the paintings were initially purchased for the Burisma boardroom with the tacit understanding that then-Vice President Joe Biden would look out for Ukraine. Museum owners waged huge bidding wars to acquire the pieces, knowing that beyond the remarkable art, each painting came with the assurance that the United States would have their back.

"We were lucky to get our hands on Hooked By Hookers, it's quite a popular piece," said curator Viktor Dankevych as he took the piece down for safe storage in a bomb shelter. "But more importantly, we know it means that President Biden will take care of Ukraine in our time of need. I hear the planes overhead, the air raid sirens, I do not panic. I know the United States will come to help."

At publishing time, sources say all of the Biden paintings have been sold on eBay to Taiwan. . .

The Cane
03-05-22, 17:10
We will be greeted as liberators his men told Putin. Now, where have we heard that before? Hmmm? Oh yes, I remember now! As the Kremlin sees, it does. Just like with the whole "fake news" fiasco. Don't like it? Just call it "fake."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bEb0VFhrl_k

Kozerog
03-05-22, 17:52
News from my former Russian teacher. Russians bombed her native village about 20 km from Kyiv, maybe because there was some military base nearby. Some bombs hit civilian areas, including a school and orphanage. Another bomb landed near her parent's house and shattered all the windows. Her parents spent 2 days in their basement sheltering from the bombing. While she was in a taxi to Kyiv train station, car in front of the taxi was fired upon. Finally, she got on the train to Lviv, where she is currently in a shelter, with plans to move permanently to Western Europe, where she has friends. She's fully fluent in English herself and used to manage an English language call center, so she should integrate easily.

(It occurred to my suspicious mind that she might be lying about her experiences to get money out of me. She didn't ask for money, but she knows me well enough to know I'd offer to send some. Anyway, I'm very happy with the results of our Russian conversation practice, so the money can be considered delayed payment for services rendered.).

People starting to think Putin's new plan is to simply destroy Ukraine, which will effectively ensure it can't join NATO or EU or have a powerful military, which were 3 of his 5 demands (other are acceptance that Crimea is permanently Russian territory and autonomy for Donbas, both of which are done deeds). Beating the living cr*p out of Ukraine has the additional advantage that no one will forget the lesson (that Russia is not to be messed with) for a long time to come.

It won't be just destroyed buildings. It will also be destroyed economy system, so no money to repair the destroyed buildings, and destroyed social fabric. No money to pay police, so lots of petty street crime plus lots of more serious crime (assassinations, bombings) by gangs armed with powerful weapons. No money for healthcare system, so rampant AIDS and other communicable diseases. Girls with options all gone to other countries. Hardly an attractive place to visit.

Xpartan
03-05-22, 20:01
So, maybe Obama shouldn't have drawn a line in the sand then. Say what you mean, and mean what you say.But his "line in the sand" helped to rid Assad's regime of its chemical weapon arsenal. Do you have any doubt in your mind that Assad would have used that arsenal to wipe out even more people? My point is, the "line" worked. I honestly don't get why even sensible people believe it was a defeat.

NaughtyGuru
03-05-22, 20:59
But his "line in the sand" helped to rid Assad's regime of its chemical weapon arsenal.Do you have any evidence he had any arsenal?

Kozerog
03-05-22, 21:06
Was meant primarily with Ukrainians in mind. For any who are sitting in a comfortable chair, and typing on a keyboard in the warmth of a nicely heated and illuminated abode, feel free to analyze, pseudo-analyze, blame, pontificate, justify, or whatever, to your heart's content.

But such activities have little point or worth for people who are dodging bullets and bombs. For them it's about survival. And it's those unfortunates who are uppermost in my concerns.The single most important thing we can do is precisely to analyze, etc. Ukraine got into this mess because it didn't think. To get out of the mess, it has to start thinking or get help thinking, especially from those of us comfortably sitting outside Ukraine and thus able to keep our minds from getting carried away by emotions.

So far, my attempts to talk sense to Ukrainians have resulted mostly in furious accusations that I'm a Russian troll, followed by banning me from forums. If everyone talking sense is accused of being a troll (and that's what I'm seeing), then Ukraine is truly in bad shape and will likely be dealt with like a stupid, strong and rebellious bull: beaten senseless, a ring put through the nose, maybe castrated to permanently calm it down.

Wringing one's hands about the suffering of the unfortunates is women's work. Men can either fight or think. I don't pretend to be much of a fighter myself. However, I respect those who can and do fight, and I expect them in turn to respect me for my contribution, which is to think. Prior to the invasion, I was thinking and advocating that Ukraine simply capitulate to all of Putin's demands and I still think that's the best way forwards, unless someone can convince me that a coup is going to happen very soon, and that suffering now will be compensated for by a safer and more prosperous future after Putin is gone. I'm ready to believe a coup MIGHT happen, but I have my doubts about it happening soon or that those who take over after Putin will be significantly nicer than him.

Of course, people will laugh at the idea that posting in the "Stupid Shit in Kiev" forum at ISG is helping Ukraine to think. But what else can I do? I was banned as a troll from numerous forums prior to the invasion, and now that the war is on, I'm reluctant to sap morale by planting doubts in the heads of those fighting. Regardless, my role in society, including every organization I ever worked at, was and is to think outside the box, and I do that very well because I don't care about social status. (Which is why it never bothered me to tell people "sure I pay women for sex, because much easier than trying to woo them into giving free sex".) I'm just doing here in this thread what comes naturally to me. Much easier to speak my mind and be condemned for it than be silent.

The Cane
03-05-22, 21:14
But his "line in the sand" helped to rid Assad's regime of its chemical weapon arsenal. Do you have any doubt in your mind that Assad would have used that arsenal to wipe out even more people? My point is, the "line" worked. I honestly don't get why even sensible people believe it was a defeat.Well, like most people, I happen to think that it absolutely did not work. And made Obama look quite weak. But hey, thanks for believing that I'm usually more sensible LOL!

WyattEarp
03-05-22, 21:54
People starting to think Putin's new plan is to simply destroy Ukraine, which will effectively ensure it can't join NATO or EU or have a powerful military, which were 3 of his 5 demands (other are acceptance that Crimea is permanently Russian territory and autonomy for Donbas, both of which are done deeds). Beating the living cr*p out of Ukraine has the additional advantage that no one will forget the lesson (that Russia is not to be messed with) for a long time to come.

It won't be just destroyed buildings. It will also be destroyed economy system, so no money to repair the destroyed buildings, and destroyed social fabric. No money to pay police, so lots of petty street crime plus lots of more serious crime (assassinations, bombings) by gangs armed with powerful weapons. No money for healthcare system, so rampant AIDS and other communicable diseases. Girls with options all gone to other countries. Hardly an attractive place to visit.You seemed to be describing the Putin end game that he has achieved or will achieve. The problem is at what cost for Russia. As long as Putin rules Russia, I don't see the West reestablishing normal ties with Russia. Do the Russian people want to go back to isolation and a stagnant economic outlook?

ColoradoHobby
03-05-22, 21:59
If Ukrainians really are fully prepared to die, see their family and friends die, and see their country bombed into rubble, before they concede anything to Russia, well okay, it's their lives and their country. Problem I see is that Ukrainians don't actually think this, but have become confused by big words like "appeasement" and "sovereign" (as in "sovereign right to decide their own future") so that they can't think straight. In particular, they haven't really thought about which hill they are truly prepared to die on.Hard disagree. Keep in mind that, Russian speaking enclaves aside, the only thing Ukrainians agree on is that they don't want to be under the control of Moscow again, whatever that costs them.


the Russian people have it worse, because they are directly under Putin's control, rather than at one remove from Putin. And the ancestors of both modern Ukrainians and modern Russians lived under Stalin's boot and the Tsar's boot before that. The Chinese people live under a more fiendishly repressive regime than than of Stalin, while North Korea makes China look like paradise. Most of Africa is worse than Russia. Etc, etc.Freedom and repression are relative terms, yes, but to suggest that Russians are worse off than, say, Belarusians, because the Belarusians are once removed from Putin's control because Lukashenko is some sort of moderating force is both absurd and patently uninformed.

To suggest that the current Chinese regime is more "fiendishly repressive" than Stalin is similarly misinformed. Sure, the level of surveillance and censorship present in modern day China represents a significant leap over that of the USSR under Stalin, but unlike the USSR during that period, that surveillance and censorship is surgically wielded to protect the political power of the CCCCP and largely ignores matters outside that realm, whereas the cult of personality that rose up around (and fostered by) Stalin endeavored to control every single aspect of society from politics to fashion to love & marriage.

Although it's certainly true that the DPRK makes China look like a paradise, it's precisely because modern China is NOT more repressive than the USSR under Stalin, but rather that the "Juche Ideal" fostered under three generations of Kim leaders represents the cynical perfection of Stalinist thought, elevating the Kim dynasty to god-like status.

Whether, in fact, "Africa is worse than Russia" is back to my point about freedom and repression. Statutorily, most Africans have an enormous amount of personal freedom, arguably more than in many Western nations. Their repression comes at the hands of religion, non-governmental warlords and criminal factions, family, culture, racism, and, most importantly, poverty, which limit the opportunities of individuals to exercise their freedoms. And, let's be honest, most Americans and Europeans struggle to comprehend either the vastness or variety found in Africa and so find it easy to lump its nations together while discounting that the vast majority of African nations and people do not match the established stereotype of malnourished and dusty children bedeviled by flys and famine.


Right now, Ukrainians are taking an enormous risk, hoping they can frustrate Russia long enough to cause a coup and whoever replaces Putin will cancel the invasion. If this plan works, great. Otherwise, Ukraine could end up economically destroyed and presided over by some thug puppet ruler who makes Putin look like a nice guy. This is what happened to Chechnya. Downside risk is very high, odds very poor. Best course of action is thus to simply give Putin everything he wants, so that the bleeding is stopped and Ukraine can begin the difficult work of repairing all the damage. If the keyboard warriors don't like this, let them personally infiltrate Russia and attempt to assassinate Putin, but stop playing games with other people's lives.Again, hard disagree. There are a LOT of potential outcomes other than these two. Further, your accurate contention that Kadyrov is a thug puppet ruler directly contradicts your notion that being once removed from Putin is "better."

Potential outcomes I see as realistic:

Ukraine falls to Russia. Puppet regime installed. Current government goes into exile and partisans continue guerilla warfare, with support from West, with no short term success strategy. Emboldened Putin repeats strategy in Baltic States. NATO Article 5 invoked leading to all out war. Nuclear forces potentially in play.

Ukraine falls to Russia. Puppet regime installed. Current government and its remaining military goes into exile in Poland / Hungary / Moldova. Russia pursues Ukrainian forces onto NATO territory leading to all out war. Nuclear forces potentially in play.

Russia solidifies hold on Crimea and the Donbas, annexing the latter and Transnistria. Russian troops withdraw from central and western Ukraine. Putin declares "special military operation" a success, while continuing to garrison large numbers of forces along the new and existing borders. Ukraine and the West recognize the new borders.

Russia withdraws completely from Ukraine except Crimea and the Donbas. Putin declares success and pledges to respect Ukrainian self-determination in exchange for assurances that Ukraine be excluded from NATO and the EU.

Russia reacts to slow progress and setbacks by committing wide-spread and large scale atrocities against civilians which generates groundswell (manufactured or real) of calls for direct military involvement from NATO nations (from no-fly zones to drone attacks to boots on ground). Russian reaction to direct engagement is either to threaten / use nukes to achieve goals like security guarantees or recognition of Russian sovereignty in Crimea / Donbas / Transnistria or use the direct involvement to raise popular support for defense of the motherland at home.

If there is a "coup", it'll be a quiet coup, where Putin resigns citing ill health, or an orchestrated electoral "coup" where he declines to run again. The idea of the Russian military taking direct control of the state, even temporarily, is unlikely unless losses are far worse than even the Ukrainians' most optimistic estimates or if there is an order for a nuclear first strike on NATO.

In any scenario where an independent Ukraine exists, I think it exceedingly likely that the West will use its "victory" as an opportunity to pour money into Ukraine in some sort of modern Marshall Plan with an eye to making them an example of what "could be".

Jojosun
03-05-22, 22:58
What news I watch has not had media reports saying that Ukraine is winning. I watch major news orginzations like Reuters and BBC and there is not media reports saying that Ukraine is winning. None. I do not know where others get their news. All people are saying is that Ukrainians are putting up a better fight than Russian thought they would but not under any delusion that they are are winning. The foreign fighters who go there are doing so on moral grounds and I hope they have some understanding that what they will need to do is guerrilla warfare because that is what needs to be happening right now. Ukrainians cannot hope to match the Russians on convententional terms. No one I read is saying they are winning.

I was ultralight infantry and we studied guerrilla warfare. Yes I should not be armchair quarterbacking because I am not ont he ground, but I heard that the Ukraine military called for their forces to go guerrilla warfare. I was light infantry for 6 years. We studied and practiced how to operate and move in small groups to be undetected and then link up and do larger operations. Although that depends on woods for cover too. They need to send them some on-off road scooters, or dual sport motorcycles (muffle the shit out of them) and have a guy on the back with a rocket launcher. And do fast attack and stick and run techiniques. Smaller quicker agile groups can do damage with those Javelins (shoulder operated missile) we are sending them and some RPGs. They could do link up operations where 30 or 40 of them meet up near the Russian formation on On-off road dual sport motorcycles and hit them hard and then escape cross country throught the trees. If I was 20 years younger I would conisder going there myself.Interesting video, US Military Veteran on the war in Ukraine. https://video.foxnews.com/v/6299099588001/#sp=show-clips.

The decorated combat veteran says the USA Should stay out of the conflict in Ukraine, adding it will create a far more severe humanitarian.

PedroMorales
03-05-22, 23:12
The single most important thing we can do is precisely to analyze, etc. True enough. But thought is beyond the feeble minds of XPartan and other Dixiuecrat yobs who spew their bile like the loud, ugly, ignorant Americans they are. "Analyze" away but know most Dixiecrats here are brain dead and many of them were involved in war crimes in Syria, EyeRak and Afghanistan.

I saw an ad that Ukrainian mail order brides are 50% off. Maybe they could get more XPartan gran papas to volunteer if they gave 99% off? Just a thought.

Ozzie1451
03-06-22, 00:28
But what else can I do? You can keep your mouth shut.

Jmsuttr
03-06-22, 01:07
He's contradicting himself all the time. First he admits that Ukraine is a special project for Putin who's trying to restore the empire. Then in the same breath, he blames Biden for lifting objections to Nord 2 as if that emboldened Russia to invade. Makes no sense. That's not an analyses, that's a collection of soundbites.The reason I posted the link was as a contrast to those who focus exclusively on one individual, Trump or Biden or whoever, as being the primary or proximate cause of the current situation. Whether you agree with Ferguson isn't important. The point is to engage in a discussion that casts a net wide enough to hopefully capture all (or most) of the possibilities and probabilities.

There are "experts" with opinions (and that's all they are) all over the place. The ones I ignore are those who are overly dogmatic, think they've got it all figured out, and fail to acknowledge how much is uncertain and how much they don't know. IMO, experts, real or self-styled, will be debating and analyzing these issues for years.

Jmsuttr
03-06-22, 01:28
I just saw that Bolton said. If Trump would have won his re election. He would have pulled the USA out of NATO.

And that is what Putin wanted. So, he could put the USSR back together. WOW.First, he and the Trump administration did not part on good terms, as I recall, so there's the disgruntled ex-employee thing. Second, it's always bothered me that he tends to talk in hyperbolic terms, and seems to think that he's the smartest guy in the room and everyone else is an idiot.

For (at least) those two reasons, I'd take his comments with a huge shaker of salt. Also, as I checked today's news I briefly scanned an article about Bolton that characterized the statement about pulling the US out of NATO as something he (Bolton) thought or felt would happen. I didn't see a reference to any definitive statement to that effect. If I missed something, or if more clarifying info has surfaced, I'm certainly open to correction. But it also strikes me that something as momentous as renouncing our NATO treaty obligations is not something that any president could do unilaterally.

DramaFree11
03-06-22, 02:10
The single most important thing we can do is precisely to analyze, etc. Ukraine got into this mess because it didn't think. To get out of the mess, it has to start thinking or get help thinking, especially from those of us comfortably sitting outside Ukraine and thus able to keep our minds from getting carried away by emotions.

So far, my attempts to talk sense to Ukrainians have resulted mostly in furious accusations that I'm a Russian troll, followed by banning me from forums. If everyone talking sense is accused of being a troll (and that's what I'm seeing), then Ukraine is truly in bad shape and will likely be dealt with like a stupid, strong and rebellious bull: beaten senseless, a ring put through the nose, maybe castrated to permanently calm it down.

Wringing one's hands about the suffering of the unfortunates is women's work. Men can either fight or think. I don't pretend to be much of a fighter myself. However, I respect those who can and do fight, and I expect them in turn to respect me for my contribution, which is to think. Prior to the invasion, I was thinking and advocating that Ukraine simply capitulate to all of Putin's demands and I still think that's the best way forwards, unless someone can convince me that a coup is going to happen very soon, and that suffering now will be compensated for by a safer and more prosperous future after Putin is gone. I'm ready to believe a coup MIGHT happen, but I have my doubts about it happening soon or that those who take over after Putin will be significantly nicer than him.Everyone has over played there hands on this one and media is making everything even worse. Ukraine decided to take on a bully and is getting absolutely destroyed as result. Any deal is good deal at this point, nobody is coming to help them and if thought that was going to happen, maybe one of the biggest miscalculation of all time.

I do feel sorry for the people that could not leave, but I have very sympathy for Ukraine government, they are completely delusional, but this should not be surprise.

Edward5
03-06-22, 02:44
Kyiv UkraineAs shells have begun exploding in the heart of Kyiv, museums have rushed to protect their most prized, valuable pieces: the original artwork of once-in-a-generation talent Hunter Biden.
Funny post. From what I can determine is that there were vast oil and gas reserves in Eastern Ukraine, the 2nd largest in Europe. The only problem is that the separatists and Russia were in that area.

I believe that Hunter Biden was on the board to deal with these issues and to get NATO in Ukraine to basically kick out the Russians and get to this oil and gas.

I really believe that this conflict on interest, having Biden Son paid for influence, made Biden not act independently and what was best for USA and the World. Instead, Biden acted on the money he was getting through his son. He then did what he was paid to do, say NO to Russia and get NATO into the country.

Putin would not have this and this is the cause of the problems.

Jmsuttr
03-06-22, 02:50
The single most important thing we can do is precisely to analyze, etc. Ukraine got into this mess because it didn't think. To get out of the mess, it has to start thinking or get help thinking, especially from those of us comfortably sitting outside Ukraine and thus able to keep our minds from getting carried away by emotions.First, I think most Ukrainians, in or out of the country, would say that the single most important thing is for those in Ukraine not to die. Survival being one of those fundamental Maslow's Hierarchy kinds of things, not much else is going to capture their attention.


So far, my attempts to talk sense to Ukrainians have resulted mostly in furious accusations that I'm a Russian troll, followed by banning me from forums.Wow, I'm shocked (sarc)! Did you really expect any other reaction? There's such a thing as timing, and the time to instruct a mother on how her child should have safely crossed the street is not when the kid is in the ICU after being hit by a car.

Any Ukrainians you personally know will likely take the view that you're not there, and can't know what they're going through, and should therefore STFU. And, since the vast majority of forums (that I've seen) are pro-Ukraine, it's not surprising to see the same reaction.


Wringing one's hands about the suffering of the unfortunates is women's work. Men can either fight or think. I don't pretend to be much of a fighter myself. However, I respect those who can and do fight, and I expect them in turn to respect me for my contribution, which is to think.From what I've seen, BOTH Ukrainian men and women are fighting AND mourning, as those two activities are not mutually exclusive. As far as respect is concerned, it has to be earned. Right now they're busy trying to save their country, so it's not surprising if they don't have time or patience for comments from the peanut gallery. And, as far as your contribution is concerned, that leads to my next point.


Prior to the invasion, I was thinking and advocating that Ukraine simply capitulate to all of Putin's demands and I still think that's the best way forwards,One big problem with your comment is that it's nothing Ukrainians haven't heard, and rejected, from a host of different sources. Are you really surprised at not getting a positive reaction? I'm certainly not. Another problem is assuming Putin's list of demands is static, rather than dynamic. Ukrainians would prefer not to find out.


I'm just doing here in this thread what comes naturally to me. Much easier to speak my mind and be condemned for it than be silent.And I think that's perfectly fine, which is why I'm doing the same thing. But right now, in all the Ukrainian and pro-Ukrainian forums, I'm doing nothing but expressing support. They're understandably in a siege mentality, and perceive anyone who isn't for them as being against them. Whether they're right or wrong is immaterial, that's simply their current (and understandable) mindset.

Kozerog
03-06-22, 04:29
Hard disagree. Keep in mind that, Russian speaking enclaves aside, the only thing Ukrainians agree on is that they don't want to be under the control of Moscow again, whatever that costs them.

Freedom and repression are relative terms, yes, but to suggest that Russians are worse off than, say, Belarusians, because the Belarusians are once removed from Putin's control because Lukashenko is some sort of moderating force is both absurd and patently uninformed.My regular, who is the Ukrainian I know best, argued with me when I said last year that Ukraine was better than Belarus because it is a democracy. She and her family are from a small town south of Kyiv and they have typical peasant mentality: there will always be crooks in charge; democracy is a farce; best thing you can do in life is adapt to the system; what matters is the final result, not the process. According to her, people like her and her family would be better off economically in Belarus and that's all she cares about.

She also said she didn't care if Donbas went back to Russia: "What's it to me? My family doesn't live there. " If fact, I don't think she or anyone in her family would much care if the whole country went back to Russia. She grew up speaking Ukrainian, then learned Russian after she moved to Kyiv because people in Kyiv laughed at Ukrainian speech then (before 2014). No emotional ties to language, or to national identity, or to political system, or to native village. Only thing she cares strongly about is economic well-being of herself and her family (parents, grandparents, sisters, cousins, etc).

Most of the girls I saw before meeting this regular were from similar poor backgrounds, and similarly apathetic about politics, national identity, language. All they cared about was a better life: more money, easier working conditions.

PhotoSlider
03-06-22, 05:41
Most of the girls I saw before meeting this regular were from similar poor backgrounds, and similarly apathetic about politics, national identity, language. All they cared about was a better life: more money, easier working conditions.Kozerog, as you know by now, I have utmost respect for your analytical ability.

I am far from the thought that you consider those girls you met, representative of the true spirit of the whole society. Especially the spirit of those fighting today.

Xpartan
03-06-22, 07:07
You seemed to be describing the Putin end game that he has achieved or will achieve. The problem is at what cost for Russia. As long as Putin rules Russia, I don't see the West reestablishing normal ties with Russia. Do the Russian people want to go back to isolation and a stagnant economic outlook?From what I'm seeing this guy is simply parroting Russia's official line, and I really don't understand if he's just a fool or if there are more sinister motives. The truth is that Putin's goal is not to ensure Ukraine's NATO neutrality. Maybe, one day, many many moons ago it was about NATO neutrality, but right now his goal is to destroy Ukraine as an independent state and subjugate its people. Simply put, Ukrainians are fighting for their survival, and there're only three choices: Fight, run, or die. Putin made it easy for them.

As to your last questions, there is a very effective informational blockade in Russia. The independent media have been pushed off line and off air. The official media don't show any horrors that the army is inflicting on Ukrainian population. All major VPN providers are blocked. There is a new law that provides for up to 15 years in prison for just calling Putin's so called "special operation" a war. And, quite frankly, a lot of Russians have been zombified in the last 10 years by the relentless propaganda machine.

Xpartan
03-06-22, 07:22
Do you have any evidence he had any arsenal?Please read my previous post if you're interested.

Xpartan
03-06-22, 07:31
The reason I posted the link was as a contrast to those who focus exclusively on one individual, Trump or Biden or whoever, as being the primary or proximate cause of the current situation. Whether you agree with Ferguson isn't important. The point is to engage in a discussion that casts a net wide enough to hopefully capture all (or most) of the possibilities and probabilities.

There are "experts" with opinions (and that's all they are) all over the place. The ones I ignore are those who are overly dogmatic, think they've got it all figured out, and fail to acknowledge how much is uncertain and how much they don't know. IMO, experts, real or self-styled, will be debating and analyzing these issues for years.I agree that neither Biden nor Trump are the primary sources of this. The primary and the only source of this situation is Putin.


Everyone has over played there hands on this one and media is making everything even worse. Ukraine decided to take on a bully and is getting absolutely destroyed as result. Any deal is good deal at this point, nobody is coming to help them and if thought that was going to happen, maybe one of the biggest miscalculation of all time.

I do feel sorry for the people that could not leave, but I have very sympathy for Ukraine government, they are completely delusional, but this should not be surprise.I would love to know when exactly did "Ukraine decide to take on a bully".

When they decided to join the EU?

When they kicked out their monstrously corrupt president?

When they "dared" to express their displeasure with Russia annexing two of their regions?

Do you have any other events in mind?

What do you believe the Ukraine government should've done and when?

Kozerog
03-06-22, 08:39
I would love to know when exactly did "Ukraine decide to take on a bully".2013-2014. EU will eventually be same thing as NATO. If corruption was the issue, why elect Yanukovych in the first place? Why wait until 2013 and the rejection of the EU agreement to revolt? Why not revolt in 2011 or 2012? Why change language laws the very first day the new government was in office, instead of first focusing on corruption and changing language laws later? Why re-arm, which forces Russia to invade soon or face a more difficult invasion later?

Lots of countries live next door to dangerous bullies. Mexico lost half its territory to the USA in 1848, then was forced to sell another slice to accommodate the railroad, then had to put up with USA meddling during the Mexican revolution. Mexicans had the sense to recognize that USA would simply seize their entire country if they resisted, so they didn't resist.

PedroMorales
03-06-22, 08:50
My regular, who is the Ukrainian I know best, argued with me when I said last yearShow levels of understanding, intelligence and reflection far higher than that of XPartan and the other Stupid Shit trolls. It is a pity their debar us getting insights.

Your girl friends are fully right from their points of view and from the view of very many others.

Mojo Bandit
03-06-22, 10:34
Interesting video, US Military Veteran on the war in Ukraine. https://video.foxnews.com/v/6299099588001/#sp=show-clips.

The decorated combat veteran says the USA Should stay out of the conflict in Ukraine, adding it will create a far more severe humanitarian.There was nothing in my post about the United States entering the conflict. I was discussing the tactics the Ukraines should be using as a smaller force and never mentioned the USA entering the war.

Mojo Bandit
03-06-22, 12:27
Interesting video, US Military Veteran on the war in Ukraine. https://video.foxnews.com/v/6299099588001/#sp=show-clips.

The decorated combat veteran says the USA Should stay out of the conflict in Ukraine, adding it will create a far more severe humanitarian.Did you watch the whole video? After your "decorated veteran" came on then a Fox News foreign corrospondent came on and called him out for distorting the truth and for appeasing and apoligising for a tyrant.

He says Americans do not want such and such and Europe does not want such and such - and yet the vast majority want to send weapons and even the majority want to impose no-fly zone. I do not suppor us or NATO setting up a no-fly zone. I know how risky that is. I believe they support it becuase they do not understand that a know fly zone requires shooting down planes and that is the same as sending in troops. ( In a world where there were no nuclear bombs I would love to see it - our F22s would dominate them so fast it would be a sight to see)
https://www.reuters.com/world/us/exclusive-americans-broadly-support-ukraine-no-fly-zone-russia-oil-ban-poll-2022-03-04/


I know who Colonel MacGregor is and I know there is a reason he was only a colonel and did not get selected to be a general. I am a US Army veteran and I am on several group pages of FB and other places with thousands of other veterans. They all say Macgregor is a nut case who should just go live in Russia. He was babbling nonsense about missiles. Look it up man, all of our missiles in eastern europe are defensive missilles designed to knock missiles out of the sky. They are not offensive weapons. He is a nutjob. He is literally lobbying for a foreign power saying we should not have a missile defense - which by the way is mostly ineffectiv to Russian misssiles and is directed at missiles from North Korea.

You realize Macgregor was in he was in "friends of the soviet union" (if you do not believe me check his wiki page it is in the first paragraph) and most vets I know think he got recruited by the Russian intelligence then, I do not know for sure of course but shit it makes sense. Everything he suggest doing is a benefit to Russia at the expense of the free world. I also know that the vast majority of US Army generals think his suggestions would weaken our nation's defense beyond repair.

It also amazes me with how many people are not up on international relations enough to realize that Russia and China are the same. They have a mutual defense pact. They are the same animal in this regard. So you cannot hope to fight one and not the other. So weakening our position in Europe or NATO is also appeasing China as much as appeasing Russia well but it seems politically convenient for people to ignore.

https://www.militarytimes.com/flashpoints/2021/11/24/russia-china-sign-roadmap-for-closer-military-cooperation/

I know is it is a sad day when Americans start taking sides with a Tyrant over people who choose to live free. Ukrainians are literally saying right now "live free or die". To them it is not a bumper sticker. The president of Ukraine was offered a way out of the country and he said "I need ammunition not a ride". That is now how a corrupt leader acts. That is how a lover of theor country and of freedom acts. I am done now. Americans who do not believe in freedom should just all move to russia. I do not understand what they are waiting for.

Golfinho
03-06-22, 14:39
Did you watch the whole video? After your "decorated veteran" came on then a Fox News foreign corrospondent came on and called him out for distorting the truth and for appeasing and apoligising for a tyrant.

enough to realize that Russia and China are the same. Definition of "a fox news correspondent": a talking head chickenhawk.

Russia and China are the same? Please don't try to explain that here Colonel General Mojo. Such insight is best kept in the highly classified think tank war room, the one in your head.

Jmsuttr
03-06-22, 14:46
It also amazes me with how many people are not up on international relations enough to realize that Russia and China are the same. They have a mutual defense pact. They are the same animal in this regard. So you cannot hope to fight one and not the other. So weakening our position in Europe or NATO is also appeasing China as much as appeasing Russia well but it seems politically convenient for people to ignore.

https://www.militarytimes.com/flashpoints/2021/11/24/russia-china-sign-roadmap-for-closer-military-cooperation/.Agree with 99.9% of your points, except I would argue that the relationship between Russia and China may turn out to be less helpful to Russia than many think.

China always puts their own interests first, obviously, and they also have a history of issues, problems, and conflicts, with respect to Russia. For example, China makes mention from time to time of their "Century of Humiliation" at the hand of western powers. It's a powerful motivation that drives them to keep striving for power and dominance in world affairs. Well, Russia was one of the offending countries, in China's view. Do a search for Amur Annexation to see how much land China was forced to cede to Russia, including Vladivostok.

That's not to say they don't have some common interests. China is happy to use Russia to poke the West in the eye. But any help Russia gets is likely to come at an exorbitant price and China would love for Russia to become economically dependent on them. They would love to bleed Russia of oil and other resources at a huge discount and their history with Russia makes it likely they'd see the current situation as an opportunity to balance the ledger to some degree.

It's also worth pointing out that China needs the West, especially Europe, more than they need Russia. Russian GDP is less than that of Italy and can't replace the money China gets from Western markets. So China is walking a tightrope and is unlikely to be the savior to Russia that many think.

Here's a crude analogy: Since they're both predators, Russia in a military way and China in an economic way, their relationship is a bit like pairing Freddy Krueger from Friday the 13th with Michael from Halloween. How long before they turn their knives on each other?

P.S. The link you shared only mentions an agreement for closer coordination and cooperation which, while certainly a matter of concern, doesn't rise to the level of a mutual defense pact. I have a hard time envisioning China ever putting their soldiers in harm's way for Russian interests.

Lucky Nuts
03-06-22, 15:07
For donation I saw a lot of different stuff, even people asking to drop money on cards.

I assume there will be also some scam in these demands.

Personally I used this way.

https://bank.gov.ua/en/news/all/natsionalniy-bank-vidkriv-spetsrahunok-dlya-zboru-koshtiv-na-potrebi-armiyi

And I also keep some money to help straight my Ukrainian contacts straight if they need / ask.

I am in regular contact with 5 people, 3 have left to Europe, 2 want to stay in Ukraine with one in Kiev.Thanks Fred! Although an insignificant amount it feels good to give a token of appreciation directly to the forces fighting the war for democracy.

Tomasb
03-06-22, 16:24
For being a sex site, that was one heck of a good report on McGregor and other aspects of our air defense and offensive capacities in Europe and beyond. Perhaps, Flynn and McGregor are BFF?


Did you watch the whole video? After your "decorated veteran" came on then a Fox News foreign corrospondent came on and called him out for distorting the truth and for appeasing and apoligising for a tyrant.

He says Americans do not want such and such and Europe does not want such and such - and yet the vast majority want to send weapons and even the majority want to impose no-fly zone. I do not suppor us or NATO setting up a no-fly zone. I know how risky that is. I believe they support it becuase they do not understand that a know fly zone requires shooting down planes and that is the same as sending in troops. ( In a world where there were no nuclear bombs I would love to see it - our F22s would dominate them so fast it would be a sight to see)
https://www.reuters.com/world/us/exclusive-americans-broadly-support-ukraine-no-fly-zone-russia-oil-ban-poll-2022-03-04/


I know who Colonel MacGregor is and I know there is a reason he was only a colonel and did not get selected to be a general. I am a US Army veteran and I am on several group pages of FB and other places with thousands of other veterans. They all say Macgregor is a nut case who should just go live in Russia. He was babbling nonsense about missiles. Look it up man, all of our missiles in eastern europe are defensive missilles designed to knock missiles out of the sky. They are not offensive weapons. He is a nutjob. He is literally lobbying for a foreign power saying we should not have a missile defense - which by the way is mostly ineffectiv to Russian misssiles and is directed at missiles from North Korea.

You realize Macgregor was in he was in "friends of the soviet union" (if you do not believe me check his wiki page it is in the first paragraph) and most vets I know think he got recruited by the Russian intelligence then, I do not know for sure of course but shit it makes sense. Everything he suggest doing is a benefit to Russia at the expense of the free world. I also know that the vast majority of US Army generals think his suggestions would weaken our nation's defense beyond repair.

It also amazes me with how many people are not up on international relations enough to realize that Russia and China are the same. They have a mutual defense pact. They are the same animal in this regard. So you cannot hope to fight one and not the other. So weakening our position in Europe or NATO is also appeasing China as much as appeasing Russia well but it seems politically convenient for people to ignore.

https://www.militarytimes.com/flashpoints/2021/11/24/russia-china-sign-roadmap-for-closer-military-cooperation/

I know is it is a sad day when Americans start taking sides with a Tyrant over people who choose to live free. Ukrainians are literally saying right now "live free or die". To them it is not a bumper sticker. The president of Ukraine was offered a way out of the country and he said "I need ammunition not a ride". That is now how a corrupt leader acts. That is how a lover of theor country and of freedom acts. I am done now. Americans who do not believe in freedom should just all move to russia. I do not understand what they are waiting for.

Jojosun
03-06-22, 20:03
The Warsaw pact countries led by The Evil Empire invaded Czechoslovakia in August 1968,occupied it for few months, set up a puppet government, then withdrew their armies.

The rest is now history, But how does the Czech Republic now stand in world rankings?

'The Czech Republic Among the 20 Happiest Countries In The World'. https://www.praguemorning.cz/the-czech-republic-among-the-20-happiest-countries-in-the-world/.

https://kafkadesk.org/2019/10/02/czech-republic-ranked-in-worlds-top-10-best-countries-for-expats/

Mojo Bandit
03-06-22, 21:34
Definition of "a fox news correspondent": a talking head chickenhawk.

Russia and China are the same? Please don't try to explain that here Colonel General Mojo. Such insight is best kept in the highly classified think tank war room, the one in your head.Gee comrade, let me see here: Is there public information about he degree of which Russia has been arming China and the degree of there security cooperation? Lets see here.

https://warsawinstitute.review/issue-2020/russia-china-a-limited-liability-military-alliance/

https://thediplomat.com/2016/12/behind-china-and-russias-special-relationship/

https://www.rand.org/pubs/research_reports/RR3067.html

https://tass.com/politics/1379867?utm_source=google.com&utm_medium=organic&utm_campaign=google.com&utm_referrer=google.com

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2001_Sino-Russian_Treaty_of_Friendship

https://warontherocks.com/2020/08/the-emperors-league-understanding-sino-russian-defense-cooperation/

https://apnews.com/article/russia-ukraine-europe-russia-china-beijing-c73b5249d313d661ce1836911b1dbc45

https://www.scmp.com/news/china/military/article/3139603/how-china-grew-buyer-major-arms-trade-player

Mojo Bandit
03-06-22, 21:57
Agree with 99.9% of your points, except I would argue that the relationship between Russia and China may turn out to be less helpful to Russia than many think.

China always puts their own interests first, obviously, and they also have a history of issues, problems, and conflicts, with respect to Russia. For example, China makes mention from time to time of their "Century of Humiliation" at the hand of western powers. It's a powerful motivation that drives them to keep striving for power and dominance in world affairs. Well, Russia was one of the offending countries, in China's view. Do a search for Amur Annexation to see how much land China was forced to cede to Russia, including Vladivostok.

P.S. The link you shared only mentions an agreement for closer coordination and cooperation which, while certainly a matter of concern, doesn't rise to the level of a mutual defense pact. I have a hard time envisioning China ever putting their soldiers in harm's way for Russian interests.That is interesting about the history of ceded lands by China to the Russian empire. I did not know about that. While one looks at China as very pragmatic maybe they do hold some resentment toward the Russians over that but be that as it may. I admit that most people think that the ideal that Russia and China have a binding defense part -.

Article 9 of the 2001 Sino-Russian Treaty of Good-Neighborliness and Friendly Cooperation states: "When a situation arises in which one of the contracting parties deems that peace is being threatened and undermined or its security interests are involved, or when it is confronted with the threat of aggression, the contracting parties shall immediately hold contacts and consultations in order to eliminate such threats. ".

https://warsawinstitute.review/issue-2020/russia-china-a-limited-liability-military-alliance/

The Cane
03-06-22, 23:57
The Warsaw pact countries led by The Evil Empire invaded Czechoslovakia in August 1968,occupied it for few months, set up a puppet government, then withdrew their armies.

The rest is now history, But how does the Czech Republic now stand in world rankings?

'The Czech Republic Among the 20 Happiest Countries In The World'. https://www.praguemorning.cz/the-czech-republic-among-the-20-happiest-countries-in-the-world/.

https://kafkadesk.org/2019/10/02/czech-republic-ranked-in-worlds-top-10-best-countries-for-expats/How incredibly simplistic, shallow, and uninformed. Have you ever been to the Czech Republic? Do you know any Czech people? The Russian aggression launched against them was a dark and painful time in their history. Many, many suffered and were "disappeared". A country's people should be able to pursue happiness without having to experience the pain of the paws of the Russian bear, or constantly be in fear of it. Don't you people see that this is exactly why so many countries have lined up to join NATO? The don't like Russia. They fear Russia. And Russia has done plenty, and continues to do plenty, to sustain this sentiment. The most effective way to break a bully is to stand up to him. That doesn't mean there will be no pain. I mean, once the bully sees his power and influence waning, he might resort to dirty tricks. Like trying to bite your ear off (play on Mike Tyson the bully). But then again, anybody who enjoys freedom understands the following. That freedom is never free! It normally is only achieved and preserved through blood.

Lazy Summer
03-07-22, 00:34
Gentlemen,

The purpose of this Forum is to facilitate the exchange of information between men who are looking for sex with women. It is not a Forum for political discussion. Let us keep the discussion relevant.

Jmsuttr
03-07-22, 01:42
That is interesting about the history of ceded lands by China to the Russian empire. I did not know about that. While one looks at China as very pragmatic maybe they do hold some resentment toward the Russians over that but be that as it may. I admit that most people think that the ideal that Russia and China have a binding defense part -.

Article 9 of the 2001 Sino-Russian Treaty of Good-Neighborliness and Friendly Cooperation states: "When a situation arises in which one of the contracting parties deems that peace is being threatened and undermined or its security interests are involved, or when it is confronted with the threat of aggression, the contracting parties shall immediately hold contacts and consultations in order to eliminate such threats. ".

https://warsawinstitute.review/issue-2020/russia-china-a-limited-liability-military-alliance/As I understand it, a cardinal rule of diplomacy is that, you want a treaty to truly be binding, then you need lock it down with language that leaves no wiggle room. Otherwise any loophole or ambiguous interpretation is likely to be exploited, if that happens to serve the interest of the other party.

I would invite you to compare your Article 9 of the "Treaty of Good-Neighborliness and Friendly Cooperation" with Article 5 of the NATO treaty.

https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/topics_110496.htm

https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natolive/official_texts_17120.htm

There's a big difference between "immediately hold contacts and consultations" and NATO's "The Parties agree that an armed attack against one or more of them in Europe or North America shall be considered an attack against them all" provision.

Now, that doesn't mean China couldn't interpret Article 9 to include armed assistance, IF they wanted to and IF it served their interests. But that treaty only commits them to contacts and consultations, nothing more.

Like you, I've been a China and Russia watcher for many years. I can't recall reading or hearing any expert assert that China and Russia have a binding mutual defense pact. And, given the current state of affairs, I think we'd be hearing a lot about it. If, however, you have a link or reference to an expert who does make that assertion, I'd certainly be glad to check it out.

Mojo Bandit
03-07-22, 02:21
Gentlemen,

The purpose of this Forum is to facilitate the exchange of information between men who are looking for sex with women. It is not a Forum for political discussion. Let us keep the discussion relevant.I respect your objections and you have my apology and if I have any further things to say I will say them in the "Stupid Shit in Kiev". Even though it there is obviously not anybody sane who is currently looking for sex with women in Kiev as of now. The politics definitely should be discussed in the "stupid shit" thread.

Xpartan
03-07-22, 03:07
2013-2014. EU will eventually be same thing as NATO. If corruption was the issue, why elect Yanukovych in the first place? Why wait until 2013 and the rejection of the EU agreement to revolt? Why not revolt in 2011 or 2012? Why change language laws the very first day the new government was in office, instead of first focusing on corruption and changing language laws later? Why re-arm, which forces Russia to invade soon or face a more difficult invasion later?

Lots of countries live next door to dangerous bullies. Mexico lost half its territory to the USA in 1848, then was forced to sell another slice to accommodate the railroad, then had to put up with USA meddling during the Mexican revolution. Mexicans had the sense to recognize that USA would simply seize their entire country if they resisted, so they didn't resist.Yes, we did a shitty thing to Mexicans, but it was 19th century for Christ's sake. Expansionism wasn't a curse word back then. How far back do you want to go to prove your non-existent point? The Punic Wars?

What else are you driveling about? EU will be the same thing as NATO? What does it even mean? Why elect Yanukovich? I have no idea, but it's their business, not yours or mine. Why wait until the rejection of the EU agreement to revolt? Because that's when it was rejected. Why rearm? Gee, I don't know, maybe because Russia always threatened to invade? Who the hell are you to tell a sovereign nation what to do?

The only sensible thing here is that they shouldn't have touched the language. In a country with 20% of ethnic Russians it was foolish and insensitive. The rest is pure garbage.

Xpartan
03-07-22, 03:10
The Warsaw pact countries led by The Evil Empire invaded Czechoslovakia in August 1968,occupied it for few months, set up a puppet government, then withdrew their armies.

The rest is now history, But how does the Czech Republic now stand in world rankings?

'The Czech Republic Among the 20 Happiest Countries In The World'. https://www.praguemorning.cz/the-czech-republic-among-the-20-happiest-countries-in-the-world/.

https://kafkadesk.org/2019/10/02/czech-republic-ranked-in-worlds-top-10-best-countries-for-expats/Apples and cucumbers.

Xpartan
03-07-22, 03:19
Gentlemen,

The purpose of this Forum is to facilitate the exchange of information between men who are looking for sex with women. It is not a Forum for political discussion. Let us keep the discussion relevant.Understood, but it would be difficult to keep it relevant considering that the hobby in Kiev is dead for the time being.

Lucky Nuts
03-07-22, 05:37
Gentlemen,

The purpose of this Forum is to facilitate the exchange of information between men who are looking for sex with women. It is not a Forum for political discussion. Let us keep the discussion relevant.LOL your objection is accurate but silly. If you're looking for an "exchange of info between men who are looking for sex with women" you should not even be reading the Kyiv forum at this time. It's a war zone so the discussion is about the war.

RedMan0505
03-07-22, 05:53
LOL your objection is accurate but silly. If you're looking for an "exchange of info between men who are looking for sex with women" you should not even be reading the Kyiv forum at this time. It's a war zone so the discussion is about the war.Lmao, but sadly correct he may want to check out the Poland discussion, the cost of war is going to turn housewives and girlfriends completely out.

Kozerog
03-07-22, 06:10
Yes, we did a shitty thing to Mexicans, but it was 19th century for Christ's sake. Expansionism wasn't a curse word back then. How far back do you want to go to prove your non-existent point? The Punic Wars?Mearsheimer (https://www.mearsheimer.com/) discusses this silly idea that geopolitics is different now from 200 or 2000 years ago. Technology is different but geopolitics follows sames principles as ever. "The strong do as they wish, the weak suffer what they must" is one such principle. The weak should thus take into account the desires of the strong, especially strong neighbors, if they don't want to be beaten to a pulp.

We study past mistakes to know how to do better going forwards. Note that Ukraine STILL has that amendment in its constitution requiring the government to take steps to enter NATO and EU: https://zakon.rada.gov.ua/laws/show/2680-19#n2 . Maybe Russia is lying about NATO / EU as its main concern. Easy way to find out for sure is see if capitulating on that point leads somewhere. But no, Ukraine government too busy fighting the war to take steps that might end the war.

It should be obvious to anyone with foresight that NATO / EU will eventually be replaced by a United States of Europe. Türkiye will almost certainly not be included in this USE, but rather will form a new mutual defence organization, led by USA, extending into Muslim countries and perhaps Israel, if Israel can resolve its Palestinian problem. This is why EU membership is as threatening as NATO membership.

And lest anyone think directly fighting Putin is a good idea, read about how he came to power: https://us.yahoo.com/news/putin-1999-apartment-bombings-ukraine-175001959.html. Putin will not hesitate to escalate if he is losing. He will saturation bomb Kyiv. He will use tactical nukes against Ukraine. He will use strategic nukes against a mid-size city in the USA, even if certain USA will retaliate against a mid-sized city in Russia. He cares no more about losing a mid-sized Russian city than losing a few Russian soldiers or tanks. They are equally pieces on the chess board which can sacrificed as needed in order to ensure victory. USA has enjoyed peace and hegemony so long it has forgotten what it's like to face a real enemy. We have become stupid, hence all these keyboard warrior comments in this thread. We need to be a lot more intelligent looking forwards.

Kozerog
03-07-22, 06:46
Lmao, but sadly correct he may want to check out the Poland discussion, the cost of war is going to turn housewives and girlfriends completely out.I checked the Poland forum just now. Maybe I didn't sort right, but only a few comments about refugees. Looking forwards, however, there will be tons of desperation among Ukrainian women, whether you are looking for one-time meets with pro or semi-pro, long-term mistress, trophy wife. And they now have easy full-time access to Europe, if that matters.

Xpartan
03-07-22, 07:30
Mearsheimer (https://www.mearsheimer.com/) discusses this silly idea that geopolitics is different now from 200 or 2000 years ago. Technology is different but geopolitics follows sames principles as ever. "The strong do as they wish, the weak suffer what they must" is one such principle. The weak should thus take into account the desires of the strong, especially strong neighbors, if they don't want to be beaten to a pulp.

We study past mistakes to know how to do better going forwards. Note that Ukraine STILL has that amendment in its constitution requiring the government to take steps to enter NATO and EU: https://zakon.rada.gov.ua/laws/show/2680-19#n2 . Maybe Russia is lying about NATO / EU as its main concern. Easy way to find out for sure is see if capitulating on that point leads somewhere. But no, Ukraine government too busy fighting the war to take steps that might end the war.

It should be obvious to anyone with foresight that NATO / EU will eventually be replaced by a United States of Europe. Trkiye will almost certainly not be included in this USE, but rather will form a new mutual defence organization, led by USA, extending into Muslim countries and perhaps Israel, if Israel can resolve its Palestinian problem. This is why EU membership is as threatening as NATO membership.

And lest anyone think directly fighting Putin is a good idea, read about how he came to power: https://us.yahoo.com/news/putin-1999-apartment-bombings-ukraine-175001959.html. Putin will not hesitate to escalate if he is losing. He will saturation bomb Kyiv. He will use tactical nukes against Ukraine. He will use strategic nukes against a mid-size city in the USA, even if certain USA will retaliate against a mid-sized city in Russia. He cares no more about losing a mid-sized Russian city than losing a few Russian soldiers or tanks. They are equally pieces on the chess board which can sacrificed as needed in order to ensure victory. USA has enjoyed peace and hegemony so long it has forgotten what it's like to face a real enemy. We have become stupid, hence all these keyboard warrior comments in this thread. We need to be a lot more intelligent looking forwards.Using big words doesn't make you right. Medieval kings would murder people just because they didn't like them, but we aren't doing that anymore. Catholics would murder Huguenots, rape and torture their women in ferocious religious wars, but we aren't doing that anymore. We, America, used to remove legitimate governments and replace them with our "sons of bitches" but we aren't doing that anymore.

Because we have learned something.

If you really believe in all that Geopolitics and Realpolitics crap you're peddling here, that reveals what you are, not what we are.

As to your Putin musings, well, if he's really AS CRAZY as you believe he is (and, for the record, I don't believe he is), that would be an even better argument to stop him sooner rather than later. Because no matter how much we give him now, he will keep coming for more.

Appeasements never appease.

NRandom940
03-07-22, 08:31
At HulaHoops.

You alright? What's your latest status?

Misterxxx
03-07-22, 08:45
I checked the Poland forum just now. Maybe I didn't sort right, but only a few comments about refugees. Looking forwards, however, there will be tons of desperation among Ukrainian women, whether you are looking for one-time meets with pro or semi-pro, long-term mistress, trophy wife. And they now have easy full-time access to Europe, if that matters.Ukrainians can now legally work in Europe. A dream for Ukrainians. A nightmare for us. So far it was social pressure that drove many young women into prostitution. In Western Europe, however, all Ukrainians now have money, help and housing for free. Even if the war ends tomorrow, the new prospects will reduce commercial sex in Kyiv to a minimum. If I follow the women in my Mamba profile, then the desirable women have already swarmed out. They are not based in Poland or Hungary. Istanbul, Dubai, Paris, Nice, Barcelona are now in the profile.

The Cane
03-07-22, 12:31
LOL your objection is accurate but silly. If you're looking for an "exchange of info between men who are looking for sex with women" you should not even be reading the Kyiv forum at this time. It's a war zone so the discussion is about the war.Yeah, it's just like when guys would get mad about people talking about COVID. It's a once in a century happening impacting every aspect of life around the world for crying out loud! That's why it's called a "pandemic".