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Kamsutra69
05-11-20, 14:48
We are all aware of the risks we take by visiting brothels and engaging escorts. Many of us also take a lot of precautions. I have never ever not used a cover. Plus the demand for a thorough cleaning before and after.

But even then it's a risky business precisely because not everyone adheres to these standards. So, the regular check ups for HIV & STD. Would we take similar risks vis-a-vis corona going forward? I have no doubt that we will.


It was, it is and it will be unnecessary to discuss any kind of features which male guests expect or are suprised to get in touch with when being in a club. Why? Nobody got a look beyond the closed door but assumptions and rumours make the round what happens and the conditions for realisation. Meanwhile it's ridiculous that traditional STD and HIV aren't anymore in the focus of board members (maybe most of the guys always have a broad-spectrum antibiotic in their pockets or stories about welllknown clubs are only fairy tales) but castles' building in the air thinking that there is a vaccine close to approval by FDA is the key for unlimited pleasure in the future??

Pessimist
05-11-20, 18:35
Russia's national death toll from coronavirus could be 70 per cent higher than the government's official data show, as the Kremlin struggles to curb the spread of Covid-19 despite a seven-week long lockdown.

The Financial Times' analysis of all-cause mortality data in Moscow, the capital, and St Petersburg, Russia's second-largest city, found 2,073 more deaths in April*relative to the historical average of the previous five years.

Official Covid deaths in the two cities came to just 629 for the same period, leaving 1,444 deaths in excess of normal mortality levels unaccounted for. If added to the reported national figure of 2,009 Covid deaths as of Monday morning, this would mean a 72 per cent increase in Russia's national death*toll.

Russia has made it illegal to publish or discuss "fake news" about the pandemic in the country, a decision that critics say could be used to muzzle independent media reports that contradict the government's official statements.

President Vladimir Putin has repeatedly told citizens that the pandemic is "under control",*despite claims from a doctors' association linked to opposition activists that the government has covered up the scale of the medical crisis.

Read more in the article below.

FT, WSJ, and other media have had such articles about country after country. This pattern - - - that death toll in March and April, is significantly higher than the average of prior 3 or 5 years - - - is happening in so many countries.

https://www.ft.com/content/77cd2cba-b0e2-4022-a265-e0a9a7930bda

ExpatLover
05-11-20, 18:52
Even you will use 1000 I am afraid it will not be enough, how will you avoid some virus that are in her hair to enter your body through your eyes? For me visiting prostitutes in the coming months will be at high risk, but each of us can decide about his own life, for sure the girls will return to P6 as soon as possible but we mongers have the choice, my choice is not before the situation is safe.

Pessimist
05-11-20, 20:07
It is not just Russia either.

Here is an article about US:

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/05/11/cdc-finds-additional-5000-nyc-deaths-possibly-linked-to-coronavirus.html

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/politics-news/official-u-s-coronavirus-death-toll-may-be-missing-many-n1201441

"USA Health officials have identified 5,000 fatalities in New York City between March and early May that may have been caused by Covid-19 but weren't counted as part of the official coronavirus death toll, the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention said Monday.

New York City health officials reported 18,879 total Covid-19 deaths between March 11 and May 2, — 13,831 of which were confirmed by a lab and 5,048 of which were categorized as probable cases based on the patients' symptoms and other factors, according to a new CDC report.

There were an additional 5,293 deaths that weren't previously identified as confirmed or probable coronavirus cases that "might have been directly or indirectly attributable to the pandemic," the CDC said.

The number of confirmed or probable Covid-19 deaths might not include deaths among people with the virus "who did not access diagnostic testing, tested falsely negative, or became infected after testing negative, died outside of a health care setting, or for whom Covid-19 was not suspected by a health care provider as a cause of death," the CDC wrote."

The above was in NY state alone.

https://edition.cnn.com/2020/04/07/uk/coronavirus-uk-deaths-intl-gbr/index.html

https://www.wired.co.uk/article/coronavirus-uk-death-toll-numbers

This Wired articlee said UK death toll is significantly understated.

"The UK's daily death toll updates for Covid-19 could be underreporting the true number by a significant margin, according to government numbers published Tuesday.

In its daily tally of deaths, UK government counts only people who tested positive and then died of the virus in hospital. But that doesn't match the number of UK death certificates that list COVID-19 as a factor.

On Tuesday, figures released by the UK's Office of National Statistics (ONS), showed that the 1,568 people had Covid-19 listed on their death certificates between March 5, when the first death was reported, and March 27.

In contrast, death tolls released by Public Health England over the same period show only 926 confirmed deaths due to the virus in England."

https://www.wsj.com/articles/italys-coronavirus-death-toll-is-far-higher-than-reported-11585767179

This WSJ article said Italy death toll was much higher than official count. Here is a snippet:

"In and around those two towns, the real number of deaths is probably at least double the official count of 2,060 in March for Bergamo and 1,278 for Brescia since the outbreak began in late February, according to interviews with local officials, doctors and funeral-service providers and comparisons with the numbers of deaths from past years.

People are also dying of other ailments because hospitals are too overloaded with coronavirus cases to give them the treatment they need, doctors and local officials say.

Some 85 people died in the whole of last year in Coccaglio, a town near Brescia of 8,700 residents. In March of this year alone, the town's main church bell has sounded the death knell 56 times. Only 12 of the deaths were officially attributed to the coronavirus."

We can do this country after country.

Beijing4987
05-11-20, 23:06
So what is? Over reported or under reported? Many are dying. Maybe you don't know any of them, or anybody who knows any of them. Many are dying of Covid19. The entire world is reporting. What we do know is that after the incubation time in places opening despite the infection and death rate increasing the shit could hit the fan or as The Stable Genius predicts " it will go away even without a vaccine" Today is day three after opening in the great state of Texas. You don't see Pence with the "15 day" postcard anymore. He's in quarantine. Robert F. Kennedy wrote the forward to a book by a debunked anti-vaccination PhD. Her video is on a site featuring Proud Boys and Alex Jones.

Mr Ho
05-12-20, 02:04
With Obama this crisis would not have been a disaster in US. Biden is not the best and I am worried about how weak can be him in facing with Republicans. Trump could win if he announces the vaccine before November.USA should always be run by Republicans for stability of the world.

Obama looked good and great speech reading ability, but that's surface, he was worst president of all.

As for Trump, who like how he talk or his behavior or phenomenon he spread, it is not nice thing to hear, but he is one of the greatest president in American history and world, he changed things much more than Obama, some for worst, some for good, but moving forward is important and Trump is poison to kill poison. He has his own agenda, but poison like him is required once in awhile to change things in politic.

However, Trump is acting really bad sadly for Corona virus pandemic. He is old guy in his 70's, so it would be wise if he takes some precaution because if he get infected, imagine the damage it cause to economy and other areas.

Also Mike pence. Mike Pence is one of the politician who was behind bringing Toyota and Honda to USA, specifically to Indiana state creating millions of jobs and billion of US dollars to state, but with corona, I don't know why he was acting the way like he was acting like with mask, he kept on working taking measures, visiting place and now he is in place of possible infection and many others in White House. He is smart guy, but when it comes to corona, he begin to talk about religion as he supposed to be very religious guy.

All in all, USA is doing not that bad. USA is big nation, what is important is not death rate itself, but death per population and USA is doing better than Europe. It is France, Italy and Spain that is worrisome. France has Corona already in December and there are even some report since October and they did not even realize it. It is always their arrogance who fire back at them, they still live in glory of 19th century and only Germany is strong enough nation to stand alone in EU, but Germany takes full advantage of their strength and control EU for their own benefit, that actually is against ideology of EU.

Well, summer is best time in FKK, but this year, I have to skip for my own sake even if it reopen, I am glad I went to FKK in end of Jan. And early Feb., so I did it already this year, but question is should I use escort here if I find stunner Eurasian here. The risk is much less than FKK, but it is there, though risks are always there for all. I must think about this. Maybe in summer when virus may become less strong to contract. To be or not to be, that is the question even for monger LOL!

ShooBree
05-12-20, 02:19
So what is? Over reported or under reported? Many are dying. Maybe you don't know any of them, or anybody who knows any of them. Many are dying of Covid19. The entire world is reporting. What we do know is that after the incubation time in places opening despite the infection and death rate increasing the shit could hit the fan or as The Stable Genius predicts " it will go away even without a vaccine" Today is day three after opening in the great state of Texas. You don't see Pence with the "15 day" postcard anymore. He's in quarantine. Robert F. Kennedy wrote the forward to a book by a debunked anti-vaccination PhD. Her video is on a site featuring Proud Boys and Alex Jones.Not especially many under 50 are dying. This is just a early end for the old (that would die soon anyways) and weak. I continue my life almost as normal.

Mr Ho
05-12-20, 02:28
So what is? Over reported or under reported? Many are dying. Maybe you don't know any of them, or anybody who knows any of them. Many are dying of Covid19. The entire world is reporting. What we do know is that after the incubation time in places opening despite the infection and death rate increasing the shit could hit the fan or as The Stable Genius predicts " it will go away even without a vaccine" Today is day three after opening in the great state of Texas. You don't see Pence with the "15 day" postcard anymore. He's in quarantine. Robert F. Kennedy wrote the forward to a book by a debunked anti-vaccination PhD. Her video is on a site featuring Proud Boys and Alex Jones.Don't worry, it is all OK, China will buy whole Europe for bottom price like China is buying up rock bottom priced Brent oil, China will FKK prostitute whole Europe LOL!

Mr Ho
05-12-20, 02:30
Even you will use 1000 I am afraid it will not be enough, how will you avoid some virus that are in her hair to enter your body through your eyes? For me visiting prostitutes in the coming months will be at high risk, but each of us can decide about his own life, for sure the girls will return to P6 as soon as possible but we mongers have the choice, my choice is not before the situation is safe.Well with your theory we cannot even go to super market then.

If you want to take precaution, don't monger for awhile till this corona virus thing is over or vaccines are invented.

Bfsie
05-12-20, 13:34
Sorry, I did and't mean to drag you into this squabble, my apologies to you. No problem.

Smoothy
05-12-20, 14:05
So what is? Over reported or under reported? Many are dying. Maybe you don't know any of them, or anybody who knows any of them. Many are dying of Covid19. The entire world is reporting. What we do know is that after the incubation time in places opening despite the infection and death rate increasing the shit could hit the fan or as The Stable Genius predicts " it will go away even without a vaccine" Today is day three after opening in the great state of Texas. You don't see Pence with the "15 day" postcard anymore. He's in quarantine. Robert F. Kennedy wrote the forward to a book by a debunked anti-vaccination PhD. Her video is on a site featuring Proud Boys and Alex Jones.People are dying! Run! Hide!

It seems you in favor of shutting the world down in fear from this virus and hiding in the corner wearing masks until we all die of poverty waiting for a vaccine.

In my opinion, Sweden did it right. These lockdowns are absurd. I say the world should open up immediately and use the Sweden model.

But if you have a better solution, I would love to hear it.

Mystical Gun
05-12-20, 17:19
The virus is still raging over Europe and the world, and even though in some places is clearly slowing down we don't really know when all this will be over. Maybe next year with the right vaccine, maybe in summer if the virus will mutate in a less dangerous flu, or maybe it's something that will go on for years. Fact is that we live in a diffent world now, and we don't know yet the whole impact that it will have in our lives.

I say that because in these days of quarantine I have different thoughts.

I miss my mongering trips, every day I recall my nights in my favourite red lights districts and how exciting was spending the night going through all the brothels. I really miss those times and I realize they were part of my freedom. But then I think back on how it worked: of course I took precautions, but still it was me walking naked in dirty rooms, not thinking where I put my clothes, if the bed was clean (most of the times low and purple lights don't let you see that), and what happened just before me to the girl I was touching. And there are those times when you loose control and start to lick and touch where you shouldn't.

So. Will I be able to do that again when all will be open? Or the fear is going to stop me, making me unable to enjoy a beautiful girl?

Fun sex always comes with some recklessness, and even if most of the brothels will be able to reopen again (nad I doubt that), fun won't be like before I fear.

ExpatLover
05-12-20, 20:33
All this depend on how much you are willing to risk on your health. COVID 19 looks to be very aggressive, and therefor is able to survive even several days on metallic parts. The girls will not be able to be virus free even they take a shower after each customer, they will never wash their hair 10 times a day or make up 10 times a day. Probably the girls and mongers who will restart their activity will be those who have nothing to loose so also the less careful one, for the girls money is over everything and for the guys sex is over everything.

I will stay out of the P6 scene for long time for sure, going to a prostitute, without licking, being afraid to get sick mat any moment. Probably the service will be also not the top, LU depressed, better to safe the money for better times.

This Virus is a killer, and far more difficult to protect against it compared to HIV.

Pistons
05-12-20, 20:33
So what is? Over reported or under reported? Many are dying. Maybe you don't know any of them, or anybody who knows any of them. Many are dying of Covid19. The entire world is reporting. What we do know is that after the incubation time in places opening despite the infection and death rate increasing the shit could hit the fan or as The Stable Genius predicts " it will go away even without a vaccine" Today is day three after opening in the great state of Texas. You don't see Pence with the "15 day" postcard anymore. He's in quarantine. Robert F. Kennedy wrote the forward to a book by a debunked anti-vaccination PhD. Her video is on a site featuring Proud Boys and Alex Jones.So you clearly haven't studied communication and media.

Just using the words like 'debunked', 'fake news', fact-checkers', 'Alex Jones', 'conspiracy theory', 'flat earthers', 'proud boys' and 'great state' are all nothing but no-use framing terms with zero meaning to them. And as the flat earth theory was started as a funny joke and later abused for propaganda against other conspiracy theories in the wake of Snowden and Assange, to smear the entire Anonymous movement, half the other words on your list are also a part of that campaign. And people like Michael Moore who was paid out, and later Alex Jones, who is also paid out in order to make every truther into a crazy joke are nothing but diversions. Fact-checkers are always subjective, and so is fake news. A conspiracy theory is the life of an investigative cop 24 hours a day, 356 days a year, but the framing is different, and the society depends on it. News media used to have the same societal function, but in the past 20 years Google, Facebook and others have changed the global media market so much that 99% of journalists have sold their soul to the devils known as PR companies.

OK, that was lecture 101.

But whatever. There is a reason they call it 'herd immunity' when the SHEEP all injects mercury and other poisons into their bodies. Even doctors are brainwashed by university curriculum taught to them at school. Forced upon the institution by named PR companies working for the devil. The old might dollar.

And that was lecture 102.

Sirioja
05-12-20, 20:49
With Obama this crisis would not have been a disaster in US. Biden is not the best and I am worried about how weak can be him in facing with Republicans. Trump could win if he announces the vaccine before November.Didn't Obama try to change about healthcare? I'm not American, I may be stupid, but I can't understand about Trump, Reagan before, compare to Obama and furthermore for image of cleverness. Just from Europe of course, but Trump is a worry for us, when we don't laugh.

Sirioja
05-12-20, 21:02
People are dying! Run! Hide!

It seems you in favor of shutting the world down in fear from this virus and hiding in the corner wearing masks until we all die of poverty waiting for a vaccine.

In my opinion, Sweden did it right. These lockdowns are absurd. I say the world should open up immediately and use the Sweden model.

But if you have a better solution, I would love to hear it.I was amazed 90% of Swedish didn't go on Easter holidays when no confined and they were allowed, when French thought they were on holidays when confined start, they wanted to move in other more quiet places in France and move virus with them, so government forbid moving for holidays, so most took holidays for nearly 2 months being paid 84% , but staying at home. Virus figures are much more about society behavior than medical level, when Africa manage quite well. Like Americans, French want to go to the beach now and in US or France, when sea is 2 meters depth, really not many to swim.

Kuni042
05-12-20, 22:16
Under-reported. Every nation has a huge incentive to do so. Nobody wants to be the outlier where most people (per 100 K inhabitants) died.


So what is? Over reported or under reported? Many are dying. Maybe you don't know any of them, or anybody who knows any of them. Many are dying of Covid19. The entire world is reporting. What we do know is that after the incubation time in places opening despite the infection and death rate increasing the shit could hit the fan or as The Stable Genius predicts " it will go away even without a vaccine" Today is day three after opening in the great state of Texas. You don't see Pence with the "15 day" postcard anymore. He's in quarantine. Robert F. Kennedy wrote the forward to a book by a debunked anti-vaccination PhD. Her video is on a site featuring Proud Boys and Alex Jones.

Tropea317
05-12-20, 22:19
USA should always be run by Republicans for stability of the world.

Obama looked good and great speech reading ability, but that's surface, he was worst president of all.

As for Trump, who like how he talk or his behavior or phenomenon he spread, it is not nice thing to hear, but he is one of the greatest president in American history and world, he changed things much more than Obama, some for worst, some for good, but moving forward is important and Trump is poison to kill poison. He has his own agenda, but poison like him is required once in awhile to change things in politic.

However, Trump is acting really bad sadly for Corona virus pandemic. He is old guy in his 70's, so it would be wise if he takes some precaution because if he get infected, imagine the damage it cause to economy and other areas.

Also Mike pence. Mike Pence is one of the politician who was behind bringing Toyota and Honda to USA, specifically to Indiana state creating millions of jobs and billion of US dollars to state, but with corona, I don't know why he was acting the way like he was acting like with mask, he kept on working taking measures, visiting place and now he is in place of possible infection and many others in White House. He is smart guy, but when it comes to corona, he begin to talk about religion as he supposed to be very religious guy.Italy is doing well especially in the south.

The predicted nightmare don't happened.

Maybe for the sun connected to vitamin D.

Maybe the population more sparse.

Maybe less pollution.

The fucker and. 1 in Lombardia was a runner.

Cvirus when you ran don't stop in the mouth and go direct to pulmonary.

Fucker and. 1 attended a various runnings with severs hundred people.

Mr Ho
05-13-20, 03:33
Italy is doing well especially in the south.

The predicted nightmare don't happened.

Maybe for the sun connected to vitamin D.

Maybe the population more sparse.

Maybe less pollution.

The fucker and. 1 in Lombardia was a runner.

Cvirus when you ran don't stop in the mouth and go direct to pulmonary.

Fucker and. 1 attended a various runnings with severs hundred people.Italy dig their own grave when they took easy Chinese money, there is reason why China is not in G7, which just by number they can be easily in G7 as ranked number three in G7 after USA and Japan, but they are not in.

What important after or even during corona is solidarity of G7 nations, high ranked official and high rank citizen knows the importance of it, but problem is working classes and below who do not understand importance of it, which lead to many disasters in various areas of society and world. At least top 2 G7 nations namely Japan and USA are totally together as allies, I hope other nations will give more understanding to US global policies.

Meanwhile China is making many moves, illegal insurgent into south China sea, buying up rock bottom brent oil, and soon they will buy weaken Europe at rock bottom price like buying Romanian prostitutes. EU is taking measures, which is good thing because beside Germany, no EU nations are economically strong enough to stand against China, unfortunately.

Sirioja
05-13-20, 05:54
Yes, corona virus is a killer but better to understand figures than panic or saying bullshits without knowing anything about countries. Many old people in Italy, 80% of deaths are more than 70 yo in France. Western Europe level of life make you live older and older but then many people are weak when disease like this new virus for Western world. Among less than 70 yo who died in France, 67% had diseases making weak versus virus, meaning less than 7% of deaths didn't think they had health problem which don t mean they didn't have, when many fat think they don t have health problem, but their heart can t work well in fat, and when heart is not efficient, usually some organs won't be so strong. On the other hand, most of infected people and children, don't even know they are infected, virus is even less strong than flu or grippe for them, and they are the most dangerous because without knowing, they can give to many, this is R0. Most of infected children were by parents who didn't know they were infected, when which parents would want to infect own children. People run after mask because they are afraid of virus, but except for weak healthy people and health staff, mask are more not to give to others than to protect us, had been one of Italian problems when it started in Italy, in North, but nobody knew back then. Because of confined which is said to have saved more than 60 000 life, only about 6% french were infected and most of them didn't even know, so if You are really healthy, always better to know about own level for everything, then no reason to panic, but if You have relatives: wife, children, old mother, better to be careful for them, and for sure brothels are real playfield for virus. I think quite impossible no virus when they will reopen. But virus show a lot about behavior in countries: Germans and Swedish respect way of life rules, they manage not so bad. Poverty kill in US and France even different cases and in both, some don t respect confined. Really good surprise is so poor with very average medical level Africa, even they have less old people who already died from other previous diseases, but I also think they have better quality for health foods when they have, than Western Europe and US where we are making weak health our children with so bad new US fast foods for health. Better to be a lonely iron healthy to take risk for brothels which may be R05, new Chinese roulette to play.

Tropea317
05-13-20, 07:37
Few days ago the municipal give in an envelope one mask prechina value 50 eurocent now go up like novavax yesterday, BTW I have Moderna.

That for my mother aged more than 75 years.

Now the government tell pharmacy you have to sell at 50 eurocent plus vat.

But the pharmacy sell at 2,50 euros so this fucker now say we don't have mask.

So no this fucking stupid mask.

Giovanna come back.

I was almost sure she never come back.

She must in be in love with bologna.

Mr Ho
05-13-20, 23:55
Yes, corona virus is a killer but better to understand figures than panic or saying bullshits without knowing anything about countries. Many old people in Italy, 80% of deaths are more than 70 yo in France. Western Europe level of life make you live older and older but then many people are weak when disease like this new virus for Western world. Among less than 70 yo who died in France, 67% had diseases making weak versus virus, meaning less than 7% of deaths didn't think they had health problem which don t mean they didn't have, when many fat think they don t have health problem, but their heart can t work well in fat, and when heart is not efficient, usually some organs won't be so strong. On the other hand, most of infected people and children, don't even know they are infected, virus is even less strong than flu or grippe for them, and they are the most dangerous because without knowing, they can give to many, this is R0. Most of infected children were by parents who didn't know they were infected, when which parents would want to infect own children. People run after mask because they are afraid of virus, but except for weak healthy people and health staff, mask are more not to give to others than to protect us, had been one of Italian problems when it started in Italy, in North, but nobody knew back then. Because of confined which is said to have saved more than 60 000 life, only about 6% french were infected and most of them didn't even know, so if You are really healthy, always better to know about own level for everything, then no reason to panic, but if You have relatives: wife, children, old mother, better to be careful for them, and for sure brothels are real playfield for virus. I think quite impossible no virus when they will reopen..Some European nations including France panicked, that is why this crazy high death rates happened, they did not need to die if you did not panicked. France did not even know when they already had corona virus last December and when they finally realized they had it, France panicked, which lead to this war level death rates and increasing.

It is not just because of just old age and fat people, not all people who passed away in France are old, fat, obesity etc as you like to believe. Many are also young too. It is because you panicked and lost control of the situation and let medical system destroyed, so nothing was functioning to the extent you did not even had enough medical equipment to save life and had to choose who get life support system etc.

It is very France, you do not even know what failed nor admit about it to make improvement.

Sebastiane
05-14-20, 12:09
So, currently, the situation is, I think:

1. Austria -- FKKs might open on 1st July.

2. Switzerland -- on Aug. 31st?

3. Germany?

Also, when will the EU open up travel to it for non-essential purposes (currently EU citizens can come for some specific reasons only; tourism is not one of these yet!

Chongmal
05-14-20, 14:39
Some European nations including France panicked, that is why this crazy high death rates happened, they did not need to die if you did not panicked. Honestly, I'm very confused by your statements on panic causing higher death rates. These are very general and obscure statements with very little if any scientific fact presented to even remotely support your hypothesis. As a non-scientist myself, I can only ask questions and hope you can answer with some facts, since you seem to draw hard conclusions.

As I understand, France and many other European nations implemented quarantines similar to what was done in much of the world. This negatively impacted economies but I'm not sure of the balance on profits vs loss of life. Also, it seems company directors, brokers, senior staff might be afforded a higher level of protection while their workers would be subjected to the daily grind and exposure to the virus, in turn possibly higher death rates in lower income groups. This is what we see in the US, although there have been a few high profile deaths from the entertainment industry. My opinion, the entertainment industry deaths from COVID seem on par with the drug and alcohol deaths. In this thought, are you stating in fact that reducing population movement and person to person contact caused an increase in COVID deaths?

I believe France and many other European nations responded with increased testing and contact tracking of people presenting with COVID symptoms. Is this a part of the panic? Are you saying that finding infected people, isolating them until they tested negative, finding those whom they had contact with and isolating them until they tested positive caused more deaths? In my opinion it may have identified those who died as a result of COVID contributing complications, causing a recognized increase of COVID deaths.

I believe France, and you get it by now, found hospital staffs over tasked and understocked on PPE and certain medical equipment. Organizations such as Formula One banned together with their top engineers to design, manufacture or repurpose existing equipment for alternate uses to treat those with extreme COVID complications. Is this an example of panic that cost additional lives to be lost?

As far as Life Expectancy, Japan seems to outpace France by about 2 years in 2019,84 years compared to 82 years. I don't have time to research other health issues within the societies to compare who is fattest, has most diabetes, heart disease, etc. As I said before, we are all stuck on this rock floating in space. Unless you are one of the elite that are chosen for space exploration, you or your descendants, relatives, countrymen, etc. Will be here to deal with this together. Everyone can claim their culture saved the world but a long term look at history will prove that it will be multi national multi cultural efforts that get us through this and the next crisis that will come, until we are extinct or move off from Earth.

Polyamorist
05-14-20, 14:58
WHO now says COVID-19 might never go away. Disturbing? Yes, but let's put this into perspective.

Smallpox used to kill 4 million people a month. Translated to today's world population that would be 16 million a month. The disease could be transmitted by kissing as well as other types of contact.

The Wu-Flu will continue to kill 100-200 K people a month worldwide. Unlike smallpox, most of them will be over 70.

When people learnt about smallpox, did they stop having sex? Did they stop going into work? No, they learnt to accept it as one of the risks of life, until a vaccine was developed.

These days we are wusses.

The Cane
05-14-20, 19:34
The Wu-Flu will continue to kill 100-200 K people a month worldwide. Unlike smallpox, most of them will be over 70. When people learnt about smallpox, did they stop having sex? Did they stop going into work? No, they learnt to accept it as one of the risks of life, until a vaccine was developed. These days we are wusses.OK, you go first then! Hahaha!

McAdonis
05-14-20, 22:26
As far as Life Expectancy, Japan seems to outpace France by about 2 years in 2019,84 years compared to 82 years.The two oldest populations have had two different medical outcomes, and I think it can be mostly be explained by culture. Many Italians visit their ageing parents more than once a week (or live under the same roof as them). Japanese are not connected in this way. Since end of WWII, Japan's single-minded focus on rapid economic growth has eroded family ties and social connections.


https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/30/world/asia/japan-lonely-deaths-the-end.html

"The extreme isolation of elderly Japanese is so common that an entire industry has emerged around it, specializing in cleaning out apartments where decomposing remains are found."

https://thediplomat.com/2020/05/the-trouble-with-linking-covid-19-to-japans-hikikomori/

"The number of hikikomori (social recluses) in Japan has been disputed, ranging from the governments estimate of 1.15 million for individuals aged 15-64 to estimates of 2 million by experts such as Tamaki Saito, a leading psychiatrist on the hikikomori issue. The reasons for becoming a hikikomori are also debated, but it is typically considered a culture-bound syndrome associated with Japans rigid social structure, where conformity is normalized through peer pressure and shame. Thus, social withdrawal is an involuntary escape from the perceived hostility of the outside world."

https://asia.nikkei.com/Business/Science/Japan-s-coronavirus-response-is-flawed-but-it-works

"The Japan model also incorporates a "3 C's" concept. This requires the population to avoid closed spaces with poor ventilation; crowded places; and close-contact settings. It also builds on traditional Japanese behavior patterns and etiquette, such as wearing face masks, and little communal physical contact such as shaking hands or cheek kissing. Animated, loud conversations on packed commuter trains are considered impolite, and avoiding them minimizes infective droplet spray."

Pessimist
05-15-20, 00:52
How many of you will be in the clubs today and partaking sex if something like Oase was at full capacity. Girls and guys both? Assume that Corona situation is just as it is today, still a risk.

I am not in the clubs today not only because they are shut but also because the risk is not acceptable to me. I am getting the sense that many of you don't mind being in the club today if it was open. For example, I do have at least a handful of new and existing sugar babes quite eager to see me (for my money of course) but I am staying away. I assume at least some guys around here will bang a sugar babe as they think the risk is not excessive.

Mr Ho
05-15-20, 04:32
WHO now says COVID-19 might never go away. Disturbing? Yes, but let's put this into perspective.

Smallpox used to kill 4 million people a month. Translated to today's world population that would be 16 million a month. The disease could be transmitted by kissing as well as other types of contact.

The Wu-Flu will continue to kill 100-200 K people a month worldwide. Unlike smallpox, most of them will be over 70.

When people learnt about smallpox, did they stop having sex? Did they stop going into work? No, they learnt to accept it as one of the risks of life, until a vaccine was developed.

These days we are wusses.As I kept on saying from beginning, it is at war level death rates.

Mr Ho
05-15-20, 04:34
Honestly, I'm very confused by your statements on panic causing higher death rates. These are very general and obscure statements with very little if any scientific fact presented to even remotely support your hypothesis. As a non-scientist myself, I can only ask questions and hope you can answer with some facts, since you seem to draw hard conclusions.

As I understand, France and many other European nations implemented quarantines similar to what was done in much of the world. This negatively impacted economies but I'm not sure of the balance on profits vs loss of life. Also, it seems company directors, brokers, senior staff might be afforded a higher level of protection while their workers would be subjected to the daily grind and exposure to the virus, in turn possibly higher death rates in lower income groups. This is what we see in the US, although there have been a few high profile deaths from the entertainment industry. My opinion, the entertainment industry deaths from COVID seem on par with the drug and alcohol deaths. In this thought, are you stating in fact that reducing population movement and person to person contact caused an increase in COVID deaths?

I believe France and many other European nations responded with increased testing and contact tracking of people presenting with COVID symptoms..Don't be confused, it is all based on death rates, so by numbers and that is what important, to save lives. And unfortunately, due to their lack of management of the situation, France, Italy and Spain failed to do that miserably.

Mr Ho
05-15-20, 07:16
The two oldest populations have had two different medical outcomes, and I think it can be mostly be explained by culture. Many Italians visit their ageing parents more than once a week (or live under the same roof as them). Japanese are not connected in this way. Since end of WWII, Japan's single-minded focus on rapid economic growth has eroded family ties and social connections.Not for all, but for some, the good thing is that Japan managed well from 1945 and 1980 Japan is top, then came second in 1990's and now third after China. The result was delivered.

As for hikikomori etc. You are too intrigued by mass media, it is only minority of population and this is in fact problem for many nations too like many Italian not leaving their mama's home even at middle age partly due to economical situation as well, but I do think living same roof as parent is good thing as long as house is big enough to have privacy. Your mass media brain is in same level as Japan still have ninja and that is why Japan has such a success companies like Toyota, Honda, Sony, Omron, Panasonic, Toshiba, honestly I can keep goes on with few hundred names that are global company that is even almost big as some European nation as single mega company LOL.

Not all nations can be perfect, but China is dangerous nation with communist government. I even suspect they did this virus thing on purpose to some extent to mess up US election because Donald Trump regime cost China not just billions, but trillions of losses every single year his regime is in power in USA. I hope US will be smart enough to vote for republican even though they may find Trump annoying. Vote for his regime, not him.

Sirioja
05-15-20, 08:58
The two oldest populations have had two different medical outcomes, and I think it can be mostly be explained by culture. Many Italians visit their ageing parents more than once a week (or live under the same roof as them). Japanese are not connected in this way. Since end of WWII, Japan's single-minded focus on rapid economic growth has eroded family ties and social connections.Yes, Italians, also Spanish often live with old parents. French kiss to say Hello. When international flights will start again, rather than driving to FKK, I will fly for a week end to Japan and will kiss everybody I see there, I think there will be a little problem, maybe only girls will be happy, and maybe will find a traditional geisha, I wonder if they kiss.

1 day after end of confined, prostitutes without mask were back in streets, exactly at same place than 2 months ago, like Emily and Ana who returned to home Velbert. Were always escorts under confined. Yesterday, Olga was not really free on my time, she proposed me to come to her private place in evening, but then she became less interesting. Let s see for next time as I sent her.

Comparing Western Europe and Asia don t mean anything, we are so different. Southern Europe, Spanish, Italians and some French are so different than Northern Europeans. What work in Sweden, with people not going on Easter holidays when it was not forbidden, when French thought confined was going on holidays close to the beach.

This killer virus showed a real mirror of society, for black and poor in US, like Brunswick Georgia and sleeping justice for 2 months until video on internet, well organized Germany where restaurants should open soon but with 1,5 meter distance, it will be complicated to respect in brothels and in bed. Greece and Portugal have better figures than Germany, when I would never go to these countries if I was sick and many Portuguese come to France for much higher healthcare. Africa manage not so bad and I m very happy for them, they have enough other diseases.

As a French, despite we are around 35 000 deaths for real figures with people doctors were right to let die quietly at home in their bed with their family, when too old or too weak, but I know what great and difficult job made medical staff and especially nurses who were sometimes insulted by some crazy asking them to stay away not to throw them virus. One owner asked a nurse who rent his flat, to leave. If I was Macron, I put a law during night as politics know how to do to prosecute owner and to give flat to the nurse who takes risk to save life and only with small earning at the end of the month. I would also put a night law about french Sanofi. From wherever they got money for research, but production stay in France without allowance to be sent to US who already paid more expensive to have masks before others. When one here, who have among most clever writings, wrote about same rights for everybody, just a dream, I m a dreamer, I need to dream, but I don t believe anymore about this. Virus showed so well how it killed and will keep on much more poor than rich. US who are down under with virus when not respecting confined, think they deserve vaccine before the others in the world, like for masks when Trump woke up on March. But Sanofi is French and in France and they will have a big problem with French people. When Japan is afraid of China, French are not afraid of US nor China. But I think French would thank Germany, Switzerland, Luxemburg and Austria for 181 beds, I think none moved when they were a bit better died abroad, to free and never miss beds for worst cases. With their help, never missed beds.

TeaInTheSun
05-15-20, 10:21
So, currently, the situation is, I think:

1. Austria -- FKKs might open on 1st July.

2. Switzerland -- on Aug. 31st?

3. Germany?

Also, when will the EU open up travel to it for non-essential purposes (currently EU citizens can come for some specific reasons only; tourism is not one of these yet!I think main point is not when they will open. The most important thing is when we will have a service more similar to what we had before lockdown. What pleasure we will find in having a pretty girl with her face covered or if she provides us a HJ with gloves? Everything is very risky now if we take the virus at home. We have to wait for the vaccine or until the virus loses power or spreads very sporadically.

DrPoon
05-15-20, 11:05
I caught athlete's foot in a club once. I then find out they don't have Lotramin Ultra in Germany. But they have terbenefine so that was about one level weaker than the butenefine ingredient in Lotramin Ultra. But they don't have pseudaphedrine (best treatment for respiratory infections of nose congestion) on the Continent. Closest place that is available in London. But I really don't know how Germans and others on Continental Europe get by without Sudafed. I think with enough Kleenex and Sudafed pretty much any cold or flu is bearable. But then some Zithromax to prevent bacterial infections. It could be the cold humid climate is making it worse for them as it is in New York City.


The virus is still raging over Europe and the world, and even though in some places is clearly slowing down we don't really know when all this will be over. Maybe next year with the right vaccine, maybe in summer if the virus will mutate in a less dangerous flu, or maybe it's something that will go on for years. Fact is that we live in a diffent world now, and we don't know yet the whole impact that it will have in our lives.

I say that because in these days of quarantine I have different thoughts.

I miss my mongering trips, every day I recall my nights in my favourite red lights districts and how exciting was spending the night going through all the brothels. I really miss those times and I realize they were part of my freedom. But then I think back on how it worked: of course I took precautions, but still it was me walking naked in dirty rooms, not thinking where I put my clothes, if the bed was clean (most of the times low and purple lights don't let you see that), and what happened just before me to the girl I was touching. And there are those times when you loose control and start to lick and touch where you shouldn't.

So. Will I be able to do that again when all will be open? Or the fear is going to stop me, making me unable to enjoy a beautiful girl?

Fun sex always comes with some recklessness, and even if most of the brothels will be able to reopen again (nad I doubt that), fun won't be like before I fear.

Downandup
05-15-20, 11:47
https://www.wz.de/nrw/quarantaene-vorschrift-fuer-nrw-rueckkehrer-aufgehoben_aid-51111739

If you are from an EU country or a few neighbouring countries, there will be no need to go into quarantine if you enter NRW. Maybe other states will follow suit.

That's another obstacle down, still some more to go before I can return and I can't see any clubs opening before August 31 yet.

ThePenetrator
05-15-20, 18:56
https://www.wz.de/nrw/quarantaene-vorschrift-fuer-nrw-rueckkehrer-aufgehoben_aid-51111739

If you are from an EU country or a few neighbouring countries, there will be no need to go into quarantine if you enter NRW. Maybe other states will follow suit.

That's another obstacle down, still some more to go before I can return and I can't see any clubs opening before August 31 yet.I have had to push my trip back to November, hopefully everything would be opened back up by then. My only worry is the cold. I am visiting Cologne.

ExpatLover
05-15-20, 19:39
I caught athlete's foot in a club once. I then find out they don't have Lotramin Ultra in Germany. But they have terbenefine so that was about one level weaker than the butenefine ingredient in Lotramin Ultra. But they don't have pseudaphedrine (best treatment for respiratory infections of nose congestion) on the Continent. Closest place that is available in London. But I really don't know how Germans and others on Continental Europe get by without Sudafed. I think with enough Kleenex and Sudafed pretty much any cold or flu is bearable. But then some Zithromax to prevent bacterial infections. It could be the cold humid climate is making it worse for them as it is in New York City.Answer:

Sorry I am 60+, and never used any of those medicine, in fact I took 0 medicine in the last 5 years. Most of the medicine are also a kind of poison with a lot of side effects if you live a healthy life, I am 183 high, 83 kilos, no smoker, very moderate drinker you don t need to take medicine except you get a bad disease.

Mr Ho
05-15-20, 22:54
Answer:

Sorry I am 60+, and never used any of those medicine, in fact I took 0 medicine in the last 5 years. Most of the medicine are also a kind of poison with a lot of side effects if you live a healthy life, I am 183 high, 83 kilos, no smoker, very moderate drinker you don t need to take medicine except you get a bad disease.This is the odd thing that I have been mongering for over 20 years, and I never had any STD, it still is mystery to me especially in FKK where girls fuck about minimum 3 different guys per day and for some girls about 10 different guys per day. Given the environment, it is quite astonishing how FKK is proven to be hygienic as it can be, I do not read or hear some monger got some STD in FKK either, but I hear from some of my friends who got std from some girls they met in club (normal disco) or in normal bar. I think platform wise, FKK and escort are even safer platform than normal clubs or normal bars in general, girls or management are more conscious for these things and take care of it accordingly, which result in our safer sex, but I still say no to condom BJ and only accept BBBJ and thankfully BBBJ is still there if you want it even after the new law.

Sirioja
05-16-20, 05:46
For sure, guys will shout everywhere they got HIV in RTC where girls are fucked AO by 10 guys per day, or they got chlamydia and brought back at home to wife. Wasn't new law also to protect German wives, but I think Germany failed for this, RTC were still working until virus, some guys even asking and proposing to pay very expensive for AO in normal clubs. I'm pretty sure most of guys will have no problem to bring back killer virus at home, maybe a way for getting rid of old wife, to dream to live with a beloved WG.

ExpatLover
05-16-20, 08:37
This is the odd thing that I have been mongering for over 20 years, and I never had any STD, it still is mystery to me especially in FKK where girls fuck about minimum 3 different guys per day and for some girls about 10 different guys per day. Given the environment, it is quite astonishing how FKK is proven to be hygienic as it can be, I do not read or hear some monger got some STD in FKK either, but I hear from some of my friends who got std from some girls they met in club (normal disco) or in normal bar. I think platform wise, FKK and escort are even safer platform than normal clubs or normal bars in general, girls or management are more conscious for these things and take care of it accordingly, which result in our safer sex, but I still say no to condom BJ and only accept BBBJ and thankfully BBBJ is still there if you want it even after the new law.

Reply: I think like me you know a lot of girls very well, it is a legend to think that the management is taking care of the health of the girls (in fact there is no health control), except in Sakura where there is a doctor coming every week and the girls are free to go to control or not. All the girls know that some of the girls are sick. If you don t sex without condom, if you have no skin problem in your mouth, or dick the risk to get sick is very low by licking or BBBJ. Probably like me you are also very selective by choosing the girls that is also reducing the risk.

Of course, many guys are catching disease with prostitutes but they will mostly not advertise about it.

Sirioja
05-16-20, 11:35
I think main point is not when they will open. The most important thing is when we will have a service more similar to what we had before lockdown. What pleasure we will find in having a pretty girl with her face covered or if she provides us a HJ with gloves? Everything is very risky now if we take the virus at home. We have to wait for the vaccine or until the virus loses power or spreads very sporadically.Escorts didn't change services in Paris where many deaths around. Still kissing, natural sucking, some even forget condom after orgasm. When I chat with FKK girls, they don t tell me about mask or gloves, they don t care about virus, they wait for business again. But You are very right, if You are not a lonely iron health warrior, then better to be careful for your health and your relatives, not to bring back bad gift at home, when impossible no virus in FKK land when will reopen, now it will be Chinese roulette with risks. No vaccine yet, not until long time and will be impossible to vaccine everybody. Only 1 infected can spread very fast in brothels, when a girl can infect 10 guys a day, and some guys spending many days per week in whole FKK land. Risky playfield now. Better to know risk.

Turgid
05-16-20, 12:53
'A nine-year-old boy died in Marseille last Friday from Kawasaki-like disease and tests have shown that he was infected with coronavirus, his doctors told French media on Friday.

A medical team from La Timone University Hospital in Marseille in southern France said he was the first victim of the disease in France and the second in Europe after the death of a boy in the United Kingdom.

"The child presented symptoms that resembled Kawasaki disease and his serology indicated that he had been in contact with the coronavirus without developing symptoms in the previous weeks," said Professor Fabrice Michel, head of the hospital's pediatric resuscitation service. '.

Sirioja
05-16-20, 21:03
Big surprise to read Stockholm compete with NYC for worst deaths rate all over the world, Italy, Spain and Paris with suburb are far below. More than 1000 deaths in only Stockholm, Sweden is worst rate in Scandinavia, their choice not to confine, even Swedish seem careful, but figures talk.

SobeLizard
05-17-20, 05:27
Big surprise to read Stockholm compete with NYC for worst deaths rate all over the world, Italy, Spain and Paris with suburb are far below. More than 1000 deaths in only Stockholm, Sweden is worst rate in Scandinavia, their choice not to confine, even Swedish seem careful, but figures talk.What are you talking about?

France has 10 times the Death of Sweden.

ExpatLover
05-17-20, 07:34
Today where are the impressive leaders, where are the things strongly improving over the last decades, where it is safe to go out at any time of the day and night, where it is extremely easy to find a job, where there are high speed trains every where, where 4 G even 5 G is every where, where there are highways every where, where all the child are learning to read and speak. Where. Sorry it is China, I always recommend people to travel around the world, to go 10 km from Paris center, same for Milan, to go to New Delhi, to have a look at Detroit or NY by night, to go to Mexico, Miami in the Hispanic districts by night and so and so on, don t spend your time by looking the news most of them are controlled by extremely healthy business people, who are not living like normal people, better you make your own opinion.

Sirioja
05-17-20, 22:09
What are you talking about?

France has 10 times the Death of Sweden.I was just telling Stockholm with more than 1000 deaths is the worst town with NYC for deaths rate, both not confined because US don't respect confined and Trump lie to US about vaccine, only thinking to be reelected, when many US parts like NYC, poor South, Texas where exploding unemployment about petrol, are down under.

Sirioja
05-17-20, 22:13
Are you telling China is the new model? Land of politic lies, lack of tolerance, poverty in north, low quality for cheap products. Really not a model for my standards, too low level.

McAdonis
05-18-20, 00:33
Not for all, but for some, the good thing is that Japan managed well from 1945 and 1980 Japan is top, then came second in 1990's and now third after China. The result was delivered..Japanese economy at that time was admired. Then there was the "Lost Decade". And really some would say three lost decades now. The number of working age people to pensioner is the highest in the world.


As for hikikomori etc. You are too intrigued by mass media, it is only minority of population and this is in fact problem for many nations too like many Italian not leaving their mama's home even at middle age partly due to economical situation as well, but I do think living same roof as parent is good thing as long as house is big enough to have privacy..Italian middle-aged people living at home because they don't make enough money is different than being a social recluse. Every country has social recluses, but I do not think they are 1-2 percent of the population like it is in Japan.

Mr Ho
05-18-20, 07:41
Japanese economy at that time was admired. Then there was the "Lost Decade". And really some would say three lost decades now. The number of working age people to pensioner is the highest in the world.

Italian middle-aged people living at home because they don't make enough money is different than being a social recluse. Every country has social recluses, but I do not think they are 1-2 percent of the population like it is in Japan.Well lost decades as in difficulties getting rid of junk bonds are true and it was due to Japan not killing what we called zombie companies, Japan is not fully capitalistic as west, this made Japan to try to save companies that are no point in saving.

Social recluses are true in every nation as I pointed out and you admit, but Japan is one of few nations who gives name to it hikikomori and bother to count them. So I do think considerable numbers are hidden in other nations too, but I do point this out, Japan comparison to west is so comfortable and convenient, so it gives more comfortable ground to some to stay home, but it is not as you try to brainwash yourself with media articles LOL. Personally, I say this, I think if it make people to stay home and if that make him or her feel safe, I think we should respect them for their own decision. It is not up to me, you or media to point fingers at them.

Pointing fingers are the problem of humanity, look we are mongers, and I cannot say I am openly because I know that society won't accept it even though they are the one who point fingers at mongering and they go home and jerk off to some porn movies on their PC behind locked door. So I would adjust your style of going together with what mass media writes.

Japans economy is ranked third now and not admired as China due to their size, but Japan is country of quality and we will be as we always have been, quality products with honesty. As for China, if that is your style, so be it, but remember the cost you or world going to pay for that due to their self claimed communist. Japan is doing better than any nations with Europe and only Germany can compete in similar level, but good thing is Japan is good ally to all world including all eu nations and others beside not with Korean peninsula and China we don't get along and USA being our best ally. With all the problems Japan may face like other nations also, Japan will always prevail like it has been throughout modern history.

Sunny side is that Japan now is leading culturally admired nation, and this thanks to french sophisticated class among other western nations to put Japanese cultures on top spot light with luxury fashionable position, so we will also work on that as we abundant our craftsmen for years and they deserve spot light.

What else, it is corona thread, so Japan will be one of few leading nation that will be beneficial for solving this virus, so it will be nice if you give some admiration and support to Japan as they deserve. It is only non white g7 nation in the world, already in g5 before that, so of course we always get mass media criticism.

ExpatLover
05-18-20, 07:45
Are you telling China is the new model? Land of politic lies, lack of tolerance, poverty in north, low quality for cheap products. Really not a model for my standards, too low level.

Sirioja
05-18-20, 08:58
Are you telling China is the new model? Land of politic lies, lack of tolerance, poverty in north, low quality for cheap products. Really not a model for my standards, too low level.My writing is not about Chinese people of course, when they are not free in their country, they are afraid to tell because they know what can happen to them, even they know their politics lie. As a French, not US, I don t have big problem and I'm not afraid about communism, and I even prefer to what happen in US with so many unemployed without health insurance, what happen to Afro Americans at the moment, but lack of freedom, human rights and tolerance, like for Dalai Lama. Must be my social part, when real lying competition between Trump ready for anything for election and China. At least in France, we are not the most powerful, we were never, yes we have too many about 35000 deaths and I'm sad about this when I know how medical staff do their best for us, when nurses are paid 2000 per month and insulted by crazy, when we must kiss them for their care, we even have poverty like in district 93 I know quite well, but at least we are free to think, to tell, even I miss freedom to move since 2 months, but if confined saved more than 60 thousands life, then my big frustration is not so important. But I m sure China is a very interesting for culture country, but a prison, seen from France. When I was put in jail in Switzerland just for fines I refused to pay because of administration expensive charge and because they stole my coyote, I insulted kantonal polizei and jail administration because they didn't respect my rights, after telling me many times to stop, they just put me for 2 days and 1 night in underground very small room with no window.

Canary
05-18-20, 09:42
The UK media are getting very excited about an ongoing trial for a Vaccine created by Oxford University.

In partnership between Oxford University and Astra Zeneca one million doses of vaccine are already being made BEFORE the results of the trial are known.

Of the one million doses of vaccine thirty million will immediately be made available to the UK with September the start date for immunization.

Although early signs are very good the UK Government is "playing down" the possible success of the project but the media is very positive.

Turgid
05-18-20, 14:20
Not for all, but for some, the good thing is that Japan managed well from 1945 and 1980 Japan is top, then came second in 1990's and now third after China. The result was delivered..............Japan is the most indebted country in the world with a debt-to-GDP ratio of 235 percent. Who is poorer a man with $10 but owes nothing or a man who has $100 but owes $235?

Pessimist
05-18-20, 16:22
Not for all, but for some, the good thing is that Japan managed well from 1945 and 1980 Japan is top, then came second in 1990's and now third after China. The result was delivered.

As for hikikomori etc. You are too intrigued by mass media, it is only minority of population and this is in fact problem for many nations too like many Italian not leaving their mama's home even at middle age partly due to economical situation as well, but I do think living same roof as parent is good thing as long as house is big enough to have privacy. Your mass media brain is in same level as Japan still have ninja and that is why Japan has such a success companies like Toyota, Honda, Sony, Omron, Panasonic, Toshiba, honestly I can keep goes on with few hundred names that are global company that is even almost big as some European nation as single mega company LOL.

Not all nations can be perfect, but China is dangerous nation with communist government. I even suspect they did this virus thing on purpose to some extent to mess up US election because Donald Trump regime cost China not just billions, but trillions of losses every single year his regime is in power in USA. I hope US will be smart enough to vote for republican even though they may find Trump annoying. Vote for his regime, not him.Here are some numbers: (GDP is 2018 nominal per World Bank).

Japan GDP $4.97 trillion, population 126 million, per person it is $39,500.

USA: $20.5 trillion, 328 million, per person $62,600.

China: $13.6 trillion, 1. 39 billion people, $9,800 per person.

Germany: $3. 95 trillion, 83 mil people, $47,600 per person.

France: $2.8 trillion, 67 mil people, $41,790 per person.

We can go through many other countries. But right now, Japan GDP per person is slightly less than France, and 37% less than US.

It is a bigger economy than France and even Germany due to larger population but then again it is roughly 1/3 the size of China in terms of economic size obviously because China has the most people in the world. These days China is #1 on Trump and American minds, our biggest problem and rival.

As for companies:

Here are the values of some comapanies (number of shares multiplied by stock price inn case you want to verify the market capitalization).

Apple: $1,360 B.

Google: $950 b.

Amazon: $1210 B.

Microsoft: $1400 B.

FaceBook:$610 B.

Johnson and Johnson $400 B.

Berkshire Hathaway $420 B.

JP Morgan $270 B.

Visa $370 B.

Now some Japanese firms (the ones you listed and a couple of other large ones which are big weights in Topix).

Toyota $190 B.

Honda $42 B.

Sony $78 B.

Omron $13 B.

Panasonic $18 B.

Toshiba $12 B.

Keyence $88 b.

Takeda $59 B.

Entire value of Topix, which is the Japanese market index is $3. 7 trillion. That is less than Apple plus Microsoft plus Amazon.

Other countries:

German companies.

Linde $100 B.

SAP 143 B.

Siemens $83 B.

Allianz $69 B.

Bayer $64 B.

BASF $45 B.

France.

Sanofi $119 B.

LVMH $190 B.

Total $93 B.

L'Oreal $152 B.

Air Liquid $60 B.

Schneider $52 B.

China.

Tencent $520 B.

Alibaba $570 B.

China Construction Bank $195 B.

Ping An Insurance $184 B.

ICBC $250 B.

Meituan Dianping $90 B.

You can see that Alibaba alone is worth more than all the companies you listed.

If you have access to Factset or Bloomberg or any other financial software, you can easily verify them. Even Yahoo or Google finance can help you verify these data.

Cheers.

Arnold15
05-18-20, 16:56
Big surprise to read Stockholm compete with NYC for worst deaths rate all over the world, Italy, Spain and Paris with suburb are far below. More than 1000 deaths in only Stockholm, Sweden is worst rate in Scandinavia, their choice not to confine, even Swedish seem careful, but figures talk.First, we talk about REGISTERED deaths. Sweden (and Belgium) are good on identifying the real death reason.

Different countries count Corona-deaths in different ways.
In other countries, deaths by Corona are obviously underestimated.

And here is the real reason to many deaths in Stockholm.

Second, most deaths in Stockholm are people from poor immigration ghettos, where people do not understand Swedish and have not been able to assimilate information about Corona.

On the other hand, immunity in Stockholm is now very high - well prepared for "the second wave".

Polyamorist
05-18-20, 18:28
OK, you go first then! Hahaha!OK fine, I will TOFTT.

While you are stuck wanking in your apartment, I will be out in the wild sticking my cock between the plump ass cheeks of ten beautiful women.

(If I stop posting here, you will know I am dead and that was a bad idea and not to do it.).

ExpatLover
05-18-20, 18:45
OK fine, I will TOFTT.

While you are stuck wanking in your apartment, I will be out in the wild sticking my cock between the plump ass cheeks of ten beautiful women.

(If I stop posting here, you will know I am dead and that was a bad idea and not to do it.).

I am wondering where you will go 'to stick your cock between the plump ass' knowing than all the FKK are closed and brothel too, sorry but the girls will not care about your death as long you paid them: take it easy life is too short.

Polyamorist
05-18-20, 21:37
I am wondering where you will go 'to stick your cock between the plump ass' knowing than all the FKK are closed and brothel too, sorry but the girls will not care about your death as long you paid them: take it easy life is too short.Salaam ExpatLover, Ramadan ends on Saturday, that is when I will really get my freak on, Corona or no-Corona, I know many girls outside the FKK scene, many of them are going stir-crazy because they have not had sex for two months and have run out of money too.

Germany had only 21 deaths today. Switzerland had only 2 deaths. Austria had ZERO! Even after reopening restaurants and everything. I know I've said some harsh things in the past but right now I couldn't be prouder of these guys, they are fucking crushing it.

Sirioja
05-18-20, 22:18
First, we talk about REGISTERED deaths. Sweden (and Belgium) are good on identifying the real death reason.

Different countries count Corona-deaths in different ways.
In other countries, deaths by Corona are obviously underestimated.

And here is the real reason to many deaths in Stockholm.

Second, most deaths in Stockholm are people from poor immigration ghettos, where people do not understand Swedish and have not been able to assimilate information about Corona.

On the other hand, immunity in Stockholm is now very high - well prepared for "the second wave".I'm sure you are right: poverty kill also in Stockholm, like in NYC, or in Paris suburb. Today, when driving from job to home, I was laughing about what I read here when hearing only 28 deaths in Ivory cost with 25 millions people, nobody, not even Austria nor Germany can compete with such medical efficiency. I think next time I will need healthcare, I will run there rather than going to Paris hospitals which are so low level compare to Africa with less than 3000 deaths for 1,3 billion people and I'm very happy for them. When only Germany have 6000 deaths.

Mr Ho
05-19-20, 00:54
Japan is the most indebted country in the world with a debt-to-GDP ratio of 235 percent. Who is poorer a man with $10 but owes nothing or a man who has $100 but owes $235?I am tired of giving economic lesson in sex forum for those who has lower understanding of economy with lower education LOL.

Look, I give you that you are right to some extent, but you are so shallow like west nations, the trick and deeper fact is this: In G7 nations, Japan is only country who can decide when to print our own currency because central bank of Japan is owned solely by Japanese government and Japan, it is like high end 90 %, so we decide when to print our currency. This is not the case for other G7 nations like EU system and also US federal reserve is not really federal is it? I am not going into that here about US federal reserve because I cannot be bother to explain to you.

Also japanse bond is backed by solely by Japanese yen, so we are find there too, and there will be time mass media may attack Japan hired by financial institution for their short position, but as above deeper insight into what we are doing, it does not matter fundamentally.

Each time, when there is world crisis, safe currencies goes up also gold and Japanese yen become strong because foreign money escape into japanese yen for its safety and this shows how safe our currencies are and also our bond back by our currency solely. So think for once carefully LOL! And hey, it is nice foreign intelligent bankers are escaping into yen, but we don't want our yen to be strong, we want our yen to be weak currency as Japan is big exporters with all our mega companies, so it benefit us more if yen is weaker, but this yen being strong in crisis is result of our credibility in international financial institions even though we get criticize, they do the opposite because they know the truth. Like it is usual that bank says opposite, bank say sell, you buy, they say buy, you sell LOL.

Mr Ho
05-19-20, 01:01
Here are some numbers: (GDP is 2018 nominal per World Bank).

Japan GDP $4.97 trillion, population 126 million, per person it is $39,500.

USA: $20.5 trillion, 328 million, per person $62,600.

China: $13.6 trillion, 1. 39 billion people, $9,800 per person.Do you have at least some university degree or some stupid college or do you even work in proper white collar job? LOL If you think Japan is smaller than France and you must be taking heroine LOL. They are not even bigger than Germany. GDP per person, who cares about each person, we are talking country here.

World change long ago and it is not only west who has power like in 19th century, so wake up to 21st century or even 20th century and stop living in glory of 19th century Europe LOL.

However, there is nation like China who is dangerous to be granted strong economy, so USA and ally should do something about this.

And hey! It is France who made laboratory in Wuhan China, this mentality of yours that west is dominating economy which is few centuries out dated dig their own grave in Europe. It is France who made that Chinese virus lab in Wuhan China and fired back on them. France is known for arrogance and ignorance and look what happened to them now, they did it to themselves and to world also with this corona virus. France and China did this corona virus killing through this failed lab in Wuhan China they created with their limited technology.

Pessimist
05-19-20, 03:37
Wow you are a totally clueless , aren't you, Ho? I told you the source is world bank and IMF. Easy to look up. Or use Bloomberg or Fact set. I doubt you even know what they are. Your language skills are abysmal and despite your constant empty bragging that you have money, I bet 80% of the people posting here are richer than you are but have way too much class to brag as you do. Your education or lack of it is quite evident from your fourth rate comprehension skills. Japan was something to be reckoned with a while ago. Now, it is sliding back. Too bad you can't understand per capita and what it means. Read and weep but the reality is that France' per capita GDP is above Japan now and Germany is 15% higher and we are much much higher than Japan's, and let me repeat, those are per capita (we know you are slow witted, it helps to repeat for your benefit). As for your companies, all the ones you listed have a combined market capitalization less than that of Alibaba. Do you even understand when I told you that Microsoft plus Amazon plus Apple together. Just three companies. Have more market capitalization than the entire Japanese market? Do you know what that even means or know how to verify? Like a retarded kid, your modus operandi is to blurt out insults from the safe space of a key board but that doesn't impress anyone.

Pessimist
05-19-20, 04:18
This is for the benefit of other members.

https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY.GDP.PCAP.CD

Mr Bluenose
05-19-20, 06:54
Predictable I guess? Reported this morning in Bild.

May 19,2020 - 05:16 am.

Is the corona virus now destroying the oldest trade in the world?

In view of the corona-related closure of prostitution facilities, a group of members of the Bundestag from the Union and the SPD is calling for a sex ban and exit programs for prostitutes.

The shutdown for prostitution imposed during the Corona crisis should not be relaxed, they demand in a letter to the heads of government of the federal states, available to the German press agency. Otherwise they fear foci of infection.

"It is obvious that prostitution would have the effect of an epidemiological super-spreader. Sexual acts are usually not compatible with social distancing," the paper says. When tracing infection chains, contact with prostitutes is likely to be kept secret.

The letter was signed by 16 parliamentarians, among them the trade unionist Leni Breymaier (60, SPD), the deputy head of the Union faction and former health minister Hermann Grhe (59, CDU) and the medical doctor Karl Lauterbach (57, SPD). There are 33,000 officially registered prostitutes in Germany and, according to representatives, up to 400,000 in total.

Sirioja
05-19-20, 07:25
Here are some numbers: (GDP is 2018 nominal per World Bank).

Japan GDP $4.97 trillion, population 126 million, per person it is $39,500.

USA: $20.5 trillion, 328 million, per person $62,600.

China: $13.6 trillion, 1. 39 billion people, $9,800 per person.

Germany: $3. 95 trillion, 83 mil people, $47,600 per person.

France: $2.8 trillion, 67 mil people, $41,790 per person..So, your figures show, German or French people have higher level of earning than Japanese when China compete with Romania for this point. Fortunately for me and from my parents, I learned at school to be able to work to make much more than this French average level of earning, why I can pay my holidays, weekly games and escorts on week days. You have to know main difference between French and German levels of earning is much more expensive charge and tax in France. I'm pretty sure if you take people earning at the end of the month + charge and tax, then France may be higher than Germany and this is the big problem for France in world competition, versus cheap China, India, even US have many cheap products like cars, but you can't compare for quality. Western Europe have highest standards for quality, why I don't care much about China, I'm not afraid like Japan or US, they increased too fast, they already started falling before virus and I really wish Western Europe will learn about not reliable, cheap, low level products, when we are much higher level than this. We need more quality for our health and safety. From what I learned, mathematics tell each problem have at least 1 solution, so You just have to be able to find it and better for this to be able to understand hypothesis, about so narrow I read here, when I find Africa and of course there are explanations, but I find, with their poverty, no medical, but we should learn from them when we can compare with their brothers in US where also warm weather in Louisiana or Georgia, but what they became. I really think this virus really show who we are: rich, poor, our way of life with our diseases, Africa with young population, rich world with more and more old people. As tell mathematics, there is always explanation.

For my part, when I spent more than 100 days per year, when I know some who are 6 days per week in FKK land, moving between Germany, Switzerland and Spain, I don t miss brothels, I don t like brothels atmosphere, what I see, some girls know how it s sometimes unpleasant for me, as I always said: I don t care about GT or Globe, only brothels fuck factory full of jealousy and lies, only World is a bit different for me, because more beautiful, when my mother made me only for beauty, I m only interested by beauty and I followed some changing club, because I don t care about clubs, I m not stuck to one, when I followed Megan in 3 different clubs for 5 years and she thank a bad guy like me she trust for Globe, not so bad for a bad French when a German told her to stay at Sharks. Fortunately I found more cosy with more chic atmosphere for me like Amesia, Freubad can also and my new playfield with Slavian, fresh real woman types in Catalunya and there You feel on holidays even on Winter, when prostitute behavior with no chic, no charm, no elegance, rubbing on You or touching your dick, or even playing with your hair or touching your face, or telling: I want You, are so boring, I don t need this low level when most are not even pretty enough, not my level to enjoy. Even only 4 meetings with 3 only with Olga. Ru on last week, since my last FKK visit on 14 March, I don t miss much, I miss much more ski and really wish for extreme free ride for my only day of the year, on next week end, even over 100 kms, and really look forward my climbing, couldn't make oxygen on this Winter, so I will extend my season. I also saw much prettier girls in Paris where not more than 30% have mask, than in brothels. Beauties worth more than brothels for me, and princess beauties usually appreciate my manners with women.

Sirioja
05-19-20, 07:29
Predictable I guess? Reported this morning in Bild.

May 19,2020 - 05:16 am.

Is the corona virus now destroying the oldest trade in the world?

In view of the corona-related closure of prostitution facilities, a group of members of the Bundestag from the Union and the SPD is calling for a sex ban and exit programs for prostitutes.

The shutdown for prostitution imposed during the Corona crisis should not be relaxed, they demand in a letter to the heads of government of the federal states, available to the German press agency. Otherwise they fear foci of infection.

"It is obvious that prostitution would have the effect of an epidemiological super-spreader. Sexual acts are usually not compatible with social distancing," the paper says. When tracing infection chains, contact with prostitutes is likely to be kept secret.

The letter was signed by 16 parliamentarians, among them the trade unionist Leni Breymaier (60, SPD), the deputy head of the Union faction and former health minister Hermann Grhe (59, CDU) and the medical doctor Karl Lauterbach (57, SPD). There are 33,000 officially registered prostitutes in Germany and, according to representatives, up to 400,000 in total.For sure, when you look the crowd, virus in brothels will kill and also relatives around. German R0 should have problems.

Rocky V
05-19-20, 10:57
The letter was signed by 16 parliamentarians, among them the trade unionist Leni Breymaier (60, SPD), the deputy head of the Union faction and former health minister Hermann Grhe (59, CDU) and the medical doctor Karl Lauterbach (57, SPD). There are 33,000 officially registered prostitutes in Germany and, according to representatives, up to 400,000 in total.This is my take on this, Leni is so envious about other women, who manage to get paid for sex, while I would pay big money for not having sex with her! Karl is clearly impotent and Hermann, hey, I think I saw him wrapped in a bathrobe in a FKK on the way to 'zimmer'! LOL.

They will not ban prostitution.

Rock.

Mr Ho
05-19-20, 11:54
Predictable I guess? Reported this morning in Bild.

May 19,2020 - 05:16 am.

Is the corona virus now destroying the oldest trade in the world?

In view of the corona-related closure of prostitution facilities, a group of members of the Bundestag from the Union and the SPD is calling for a sex ban and exit programs for prostitutes.

The shutdown for prostitution imposed during the Corona crisis should not be relaxed, they demand in a letter to the heads of government of the federal states, available to the German press agency. Otherwise they fear foci of infection.

"It is obvious that prostitution would have the effect of an epidemiological super-spreader. Sexual acts are usually not compatible with social distancing," the paper says. When tracing infection chains, contact with prostitutes is likely to be kept secret.

The letter was signed by 16 parliamentarians, among them the trade unionist Leni Breymaier (60, SPD), the deputy head of the Union faction and former health minister Hermann Grhe (59, CDU) and the medical doctor Karl Lauterbach (57, SPD). There are 33,000 officially registered prostitutes in Germany and, according to representatives, up to 400,000 in total.I will be damned when corona is over and I go to FKK and I bump into FKK girls name "corona" LOL!

McAdonis
05-19-20, 12:02
Is the corona virus now destroying the oldest trade in the world?

In view of the corona-related closure of prostitution facilities, a group of members of the Bundestag from the Union and the SPD is calling for a sex ban and exit programs for prostitutes.Wait and see like everything else. A permanent ban seems extreme. But I could envision them extending the date for restrictions every month until there is a vaccine, which could effectively be a ban for 1-2 years. People will still find ways to partake underground. But if outbreaks occurs via these underground activities, the politicians can at least say that they did everything in their power to prevent them.

MaxSquatter
05-19-20, 14:02
Austria looks to be opening brothels July 1 (so says Goldentime Vienna). It would be a shame for Germany to miss out on all that tourism money coming in.


Predictable I guess? Reported this morning in Bild.

May 19,2020 - 05:16 am.

Is the corona virus now destroying the oldest trade in the world?

In view of the corona-related closure of prostitution facilities, a group of members of the Bundestag from the Union and the SPD is calling for a sex ban and exit programs for prostitutes.

The shutdown for prostitution imposed during the Corona crisis should not be relaxed, they demand in a letter to the heads of government of the federal states, available to the German press agency. Otherwise they fear foci of infection.

"It is obvious that prostitution would have the effect of an epidemiological super-spreader. Sexual acts are usually not compatible with social distancing," the paper says. When tracing infection chains, contact with prostitutes is likely to be kept secret.

The letter was signed by 16 parliamentarians, among them the trade unionist Leni Breymaier (60, SPD), the deputy head of the Union faction and former health minister Hermann Grhe (59, CDU) and the medical doctor Karl Lauterbach (57, SPD). There are 33,000 officially registered prostitutes in Germany and, according to representatives, up to 400,000 in total.

Turgid
05-19-20, 14:09
I am tired of giving economic lesson in sex forum for those who has lower understanding of economy with lower education LOL.

Look, I give you that you are right to some extent, but you are so shallow like west nations, the trick and deeper fact is this: In G7 nations, Japan is only country who can decide when to print our own currency because central bank of Japan is owned solely by Japanese government and Japan, it is like high end 90 %, so we decide when to print our currency. This is not the case for other G7 nations like EU system and also US federal reserve is not really federal is it? I am not going into that here about US federal reserve because I cannot be bother to explain to you.

Also japanse bond is backed by solely by Japanese yen, so we are find there too, and there will be time mass media may attack Japan hired by financial institution for their short position, but as above deeper insight into what we are doing, it does not matter fundamentally.

Each time, when there is world crisis, safe currencies goes up also gold and Japanese yen become strong because foreign money escape into japanese yen for its safety and this shows how safe our currencies are and also our bond back by our currency solely. So think for once carefully LOL! And hey, it is nice foreign intelligent bankers are escaping into yen, but we don't want our yen to be strong, we want our yen to be weak currency as Japan is big exporters with all our mega companies, so it benefit us more if yen is weaker, but this yen being strong in crisis is result of our credibility in international financial institions even though we get criticize, they do the opposite because they know the truth. Like it is usual that bank says opposite, bank say sell, you buy, they say buy, you sell LOL.The issue is not that Japan can print its own money the issue is that if Japan could not print its own money like most of the world's countries it would, in spite of the high work ethic of the people, be in much greater financial difficulty than it already is.

Additionally, while the bank of Japan says that individual financial assets in Japan reached JPY1,630 trn ($15.85 trn) as of March 31,2014, in fact Japanese households had one of the lowest savings rates in the OECD -- 0. 9% of household income, which was 23rd of 28 countries. Indeed, about 30% of households have no savings. Japan being referred to as an economic powerhouse today is shallow hype, what good is being a financial powerhouse if the people are poor.

The Cane
05-19-20, 14:56
I wonder if the questioning at the port of entry will get any tougher?

Officer: What is your name sir?

Passenger: Mr. Ho.

Officer: And why do you have so much cash with you Mr. Ho?

Passenger: Because I am going to the FKK sauna clubs, and the girls never have change!

Officer: LOLOLOLOLOL!

Still one of the funniest things I have read on this site hahaha!

Pistons
05-19-20, 15:49
Predictable I guess? Reported this morning in Bild.

May 19,2020 - 05:16 am.

Is the corona virus now destroying the oldest trade in the world?

In view of the corona-related closure of prostitution facilities, a group of members of the Bundestag from the Union and the SPD is calling for a sex ban and exit programs for prostitutes.

The shutdown for prostitution imposed during the Corona crisis should not be relaxed, they demand in a letter to the heads of government of the federal states, available to the German press agency. Otherwise they fear foci of infection.

"It is obvious that prostitution would have the effect of an epidemiological super-spreader. Sexual acts are usually not compatible with social distancing," the paper says. When tracing infection chains, contact with prostitutes is likely to be kept secret.

The letter was signed by 16 parliamentarians, among them the trade unionist Leni Breymaier (60, SPD), the deputy head of the Union faction and former health minister Hermann Grhe (59, CDU) and the medical doctor Karl Lauterbach (57, SPD). There are 33,000 officially registered prostitutes in Germany and, according to representatives, up to 400,000 in total.I once played World of Warcraft and there was this bug that made a disease spread like wildfire. What me and some friends did was to attain the bug, and release it on our enemies on our server. Greatest weapon of all time in any game I have played. You just have to get the disease, and get to the right place afterwards. Games can really be of great learning!

Also, many politicians are boomers. And the boomers are at great risk in all of this. Just look at Biden and Trump. They are both so old that this entire pandemic could turn out to be a blessing. No need to choose the lesser of two evils.

Pistons
05-19-20, 15:57
However, there is nation like China who is dangerous to be granted strong economy, so USA and ally should do something about this.Well, not China. Most Chinese people are extremely nice and very friendly. It is the entire CCP propaganda arm and fascist politics that frightens me. And one can probably soon start to compare them with NSDAP, since it is just getting worse and worse and worse since Xi took over with his warring and neo-facist take on everything.

Generalizing it as being China, would be like generalizing all westerners as being Donald Trump.

Rocky V
05-19-20, 16:55
First, we talk about REGISTERED deaths. Sweden (and Belgium) are good on identifying the real death reason.Belgium also include suspected Covid deaths in the total number and that is why it is much higher than other countries.

BigBuddy69
05-19-20, 17:26
They are not even bigger than Germany. GDP per person, who cares about each person, we are talking country here.OK you're right. So according to you, China kicks Japan's bony ass: 13.6 vs 5.

Sirioja
05-19-20, 22:22
Belgium also include suspected Covid deaths in the total number and that is why it is much higher than other countries.France tell 28000 deaths in news, I write 35000 with deaths let by doctors quietly at home, from medical information, at least I m honest. US will go soon to 100 000 if they don't all take chloroquine. How is it possible to elect a so crazy and dangerous.

Sirioja
05-19-20, 23:59
Austria looks to be opening brothels July 1 (so says Goldentime Vienna). It would be a shame for Germany to miss out on all that tourism money coming in.But maybe, German politics don't want to have many more deaths. Many guys in brothels don't seem so healthy, and can be brought back at home. Germany is not in high ranking for tourism, when France is number 1 when 15 times less large than US. Spain is number 3 for tourism with much more income than Germany, so many Germans spend holidays in Spain, but Spain may not open borders on this Summer. We don't know yet for France.

Mr Ho
05-20-20, 00:12
OK you're right. So according to you, China kicks Japan's bony ass: 13.6 vs 5.Why you are so naively low educated sticking to things in just black and white, do you know that a lot of things in politic and economy is rather grey like most of things in life? China as capacity of country beat Japan, they are ranked second now in the world due to their quantity and Japan is guilty for that as we are one of the main nation who gave them technology.

However, it is not all black and white, Japan unlike most nations, we have so much actual cash cows, I won't name all companies, but whether it is sony, panasonic, toshiba, mitsubishi ufj bank, mitsui sumitomo bank or uniqlo or omron or cannon and so on lists are endless as I hope you least know, these are all Japanese companies and most of our companies are all in top 10 or top 5 in the world in all sectors of different industries, where as China only has few of that at the moment and mostly are still factories, as they are called the factories of world and hey usa trying to pull out, Japan is trying to pull out and hopefully rest of world including France who made this failed virus laboratory in wuhan China too. It is just quantity power of China, look at that nation look their insane size and hey look at Japan, it is tiny island nation who got to top fast because we are organized, honest, disciplined, good refined sophisticated culture (this also France and Italy too) and most importantly intelligent. But size did beat Japan, but like in most things in life it is matter of time, I hope for world. China is not safe due to their communist government, people are OK, but tend to cheat a lot, so let see if that culture change, they are opposite of how japanese people are, we are honest being who focus on quality that got us to top.

At least this is what most intellect of the world knows as we have usually very good reputation, but not on this sex forum LOL! It must be that most of the guys here who are so anti Japan which is first time I heard beside in China and Korea (some of them are anti Japan due to their public education), you guys must be got your education from romanian prostitutes LOL! Your brain and understanding of the world is in same level as romanian prostitutes LOL! This is true as your thinking is too shallow, but radical LOL! Look deep behind things in life because it has surfaces.

Mr Ho
05-20-20, 00:25
The issue is not that Japan can print its own money the issue is that if Japan could not print its own money like most of the world's countries it would, in spite of the high work ethic of the people, be in much greater financial difficulty than it already is.

Additionally, while the bank of Japan says that individual financial assets in Japan reached JPY1,630 trn ($15.85 trn) as of March 31,2014, in fact Japanese households had one of the lowest savings rates in the OECD -- 0. 9% of household income, which was 23rd of 28 countries. Indeed, about 30% of households have no savings. Japan being referred to as an economic powerhouse today is shallow hype, what good is being a financial powerhouse if the people are poor.Well some low educated mentioned about national debt, so I explained what is going on. Again we are the only G7 nation who can print our own money at our will owning our own central bank ourselves and our bond is solely backed by japanese yen so we decide, this is most important when it comes to country management. We wanted that after ww2 and we appeal to interest of USA and we managed to convince USA who are our best friend and ally.

As for people. This is the system and you are half true, Japanese government sees citizen as foot soldiers LOL this is reality of it if you look deep into what is going on, it is going on due to immigration though, someone mentioned about decrease in population and this is problem in all G7 nations, people are smarter so don't make kids, so most G7 nations went for immigration long ago beside Japan, but we too are opening our door, but we are learning from mistakes of EU immigration and we are trying to choose better. But people live good here, there is no poverty almost in Japan, I mean anyone who has been here know that we rarely have homeless and if there are it is by choice. They can get 1500 USD per month if they request it wit free medical care too. But people live good here. And other thing, Japan keep money in the company and country and this is how it should be, we don't believe few individual take all the billions and often take off like what happened in many western nations like France, many french billionaire people immigrate to other nations and just do business in France, we don't want this here. There are many billionaire in Japan too, I mean look at all the mega companies in Japan, we have the most prestigious companies in the world, we actually do business here not just money game like most western nations, these are solid product manufacturing companies, and behind them are owners, but even with high tax here, they stayed in Japan, they did not take off like in western nations even though they could, it is cultural thing, it is called mega rich giving back to society and country, maybe west should learn philosophy from us LOL!

However, quality of life in Japan in other aspect like hygiene, medical level, shopping, food, safety, infrastructure, people are polite etc. Are much higher in Japan than western nations. Anybody who has been here knows that.

Mr Ho
05-20-20, 00:38
Well, not China. Most Chinese people are extremely nice and very friendly. It is the entire CCP propaganda arm and fascist politics that frightens me. And one can probably soon start to compare them with NSDAP, since it is just getting worse and worse and worse since Xi took over with his warring and neo-facist take on everything.

Generalizing it as being China, would be like generalizing all westerners as being Donald Trump.This I agree, it is their government and people who unfortunately got brainwashed by them, but some of people are bravely fighting back even though it often lead to false arrest or even disappearance. It is fault of Japan and UK as we began fighting in 1940's there and communist party then who were so weak and almost got defeated by chinese government run into mountain to hide during war then after war is finished when China was weak, these communist came back and took over. So it is partly fault of Japan and UK and I am one of few japanese who admit that.

As for Donald Trump, he beside all the not fair pressure, he is pro Japan by the way LOL. You have to look deep into his regime and don't be fool by his foolish act, it is act for election, his government structure is most intelligent and good ever has been, like when I saw Mike pence being appointed as vice president of USA, then I knew what is going on behind, it is good regime and I won't explain here as I am not educator of sex forum low educated individuals LOL! Don't judge donald trump on his foolish cover, it is just a front. But yeah he is hilariously annoying sometimes LOL. Japan manage him fine and we like him in general and his respectful daughter. Basically it is very anglo saxon jewish regime and it is fine, we get along with them beside all it is not fair claim when he need investment in USA, which we happily do to serve both of our interest, donald trump is like that on just surface, behind close door, he is fair enough guy, he knows where is right landing point it.

Even during corona, it is not just for election he is attacking WHO, if it is not trump there would not be truth being revealed on most corrupt WHO which is CHO, Chinese Health Organization lead by ethiopian whom his nations is bought by China, so he has to listen to China. Taiwan not allowed to join WHO as observer? Whatta hell is that political discrimination? And since most of sex forum guys are low educated as romanian prostitutes and nobody mentioned Taiwan, I would say Taiwan did best job at corona handling, even better than Japan, and Taiwan has been warning WHO since last December, but WHO ignored Taiwan because of chinese pressure. Really shame on WHO and that ehiopian need to be fired.

It is franc who built this lab in China, China hide the truth and also WHO, so corona virus pandemic is collaboration job done by France, China and WHO. Truth won't be revealed, but this is fact of how the foundation of this whole problem started.

Polyamorist
05-20-20, 01:50
France tell 28000 deaths in newsHaut les coeurs! I checked the stats and yesterday the total deaths went from 28,239 to 28,022 -- a rise of only -0. 77%.

When I first read that, I was thrilled, but on second thoughts I'm not sure I like the idea of Coronavirus victims bashing their way out of coffins and shambling around Notre Dame at night, getting very bitey, etc. Believe me, sometimes death is the better option.


I once played World of Warcraft and there was this bug that made a disease spread like wildfire. What me and some friends did was to attain the bug, and release it on our enemies on our server. Greatest weapon of all time in any game I have played. You just have to get the disease, and get to the right place afterwards. Games can really be of great learning!
Well if you like to like to play at being Professor "Bat-Woman" Zhengli, you can get games for the phone like Plague and Pandemic, and also boardgames.



Also, many politicians are boomers. And the boomers are at great risk in all of this. Just look at Biden and Trump. They are both so old that this entire pandemic could turn out to be a blessing. No need to choose the lesser of two evils.
Yes there is. I endorse Joe Biden for President of the United States, because there is no chance he will ever remember the nuclear codes. Seriously the greatest threat we face, it makes COVID-19 look like a bat's balls by comparison.

DasBooty
05-20-20, 06:47
Austria looks to be opening brothels July 1 (so says Goldentime Vienna). It would be a shame for Germany to miss out on all that tourism money coming in.I expected more from FKK lobbyists in Germany. Austria it is!

BigBuddy69
05-20-20, 07:27
China as capacity of country beat Japan, they are ranked second now in the world due to their quantity and Japan is guilty for that as we are one of the main nation who gave them technology.Maybe your country felt the need to be forgiven after some little missteps like Nanking and Unit 731?

Mr Ho
05-20-20, 10:14
I expected more from FKK lobbyists in Germany. Austria it is!Is lobbying legal in Germany and Austria?

If so such lobbyist have good set of feminist activist demonstrating over weekend front of his house calling him the menace of all female LOL!

Mr Ho
05-20-20, 12:09
Haut les coeurs! I checked the stats and yesterday the total deaths went from 28,239 to 28,022 -- a rise of only -0. 77%.

When I first read that, I was thrilled, but on second thoughts I'm not sure I like the idea of Coronavirus victims bashing their way out of coffins and shambling around Notre Dame at night, getting very bitey, etc. Believe me, sometimes death is the better option.


Well if you like to like to play at being Professor "Bat-Woman" Zhengli, you can get games for the phone like Plague and Pandemic, and also boardgames.


Yes there is. I endorse Joe Biden for President of the United States, because there is no chance he will ever remember the nuclear codes. Seriously the greatest threat we face, it makes COVID-19 look like a bat's balls by comparison.France made that failed virus laboratory in China with their limited technology and know how in area of medical field, so they dig their own grave and now being hysteric about what France have done to themselves together with China and WHO.

Mr Ho
05-20-20, 13:05
The two oldest populations have had two different medical outcomes, and I think it can be mostly be explained by culture. Many Italians visit their ageing parents more than once a week (or live under the same roof as them). Japanese are not connected in this way. Since end of WWII, Japan's single-minded focus on rapid economic growth has eroded family ties and social connections.Concerning your obsession with hikikomori and recluse, I forgot to add one thing. You are so ignorant as usual and let me explain you why.

Howard Hughes, I think it is fair to say, he is most recluse of all time and hey without his intelligence and existence, we would not be flying in the way that we are flying today, he contributed vastly for aviation world, so that we get to fly to Germany and fuck girls as we choose to, so there is some positive recluse from most extreme recluse or hikikomori world that you have such negative opinion about.

I am not finger pointer for other people, I mean I am hentai myself flying half the way around world just to fuck girls, so who am I to point fingers to recluse or whoever, but what I do trash talks are those who point fingers at people without knowing what they are talking about with limited education and intelligence, not even knowing you are actually benefiting from people you are pointing finger at.

Because of Howard Hughes the most recluse hikikomori of all time, we mongers would not be flying to German FKK or where-ever, so instead of pointing finger, be grateful and admit your lack of intelligence and knowledge. You benefit from recluse without even knowing it LOL.

MaxSquatter
05-20-20, 16:02
I bet German lobbyists will come through. There's lots of clubs and lots of big money in this industry there. When they see Austria taking away market share they will get their act together.


I expected more from FKK lobbyists in Germany. Austria it is!

Clodius1
05-20-20, 16:21
Link to DW article about permanent closures here.

https://www.dw.com/en/german-lawmakers-call-for-buying-sex-to-be-made-permanently-illegal/a-53504221?maca=en-EMail-sharing

The Cane
05-20-20, 16:28
Link to DW article about permanent closures here.

https://www.dw.com/en/german-lawmakers-call-for-buying-sex-to-be-made-permanently-illegal/a-53504221?maca=en-EMail-sharingWe had to anticipate that some people would use this virus as an excuse for accomplishing what they've always wanted anyway. A permanent ban of the FKKs!

Pessimist
05-20-20, 17:02
Denmark, Finland and Norway are debating whether to maintain travel restrictions on Sweden but ease them for other countries as they nervously eye their Nordic neighbour's higher coronavirus death toll.

As of Wednesday, 3,831 people had died from Covid-19 in Sweden, a country with a population of 10 m. Denmark, Finland and Norway — which each have about 5 m inhabitants — have recorded death tolls of 551,301 and 233, respectively. Swedish authorities argued that a lockdown and closed borders would bring relatively few benefits at a high cost to public health and the economy.

The FT tracker shows that Sweden had 6. 4 deaths per million people 61 days after its death rate first climbed above 0. 1 deaths per million. That contrasts with the UK's 6. 2 deaths per million at the same stage, Italy's 5.5, and Spain's 4.

Denmark is weighing whether to open its borders with Germany and Norway but not to Sweden. Several opposition parties, which have a majority in Denmark's parliament, have said the borders need to be opened to help the country's tourism industry but that the high death rate in Sweden was worrying.

MoneySign
05-20-20, 17:38
Easy to look up. Or use Bloomberg or Fact set. I doubt you even know what they are.I'm curious if any of these financial software is free. If not, is it one time charged or annual subscription? How much does it cost? Can anyone just download them? What do they provide that Yahoo Finance doesn't cover? Which one would you use or recommend?

Pessimist
05-20-20, 18:48
I'm curious if any of these financial software is free. If not, is it one time charged or annual subscription? How much does it cost? Can anyone just download them? What do they provide that Yahoo Finance doesn't cover? Which one would you use or recommend?Sorry, it was a bit of a showing off on my part, my apologies. I said those words because Ho is constantly engaging in his absurd Japan chest thumping and insulting other members about their education which is galling as he writes borderline nonsensical stuff. Coming to those two specific software, no they are not free. Both cost north of $20 grand for annual subscription. Invariably, your employer would pay for it if your job requires using those software tools. I currently use one of them, have used both in the past and in my view, Yahoo Finance is just fine for most regular investors and one needs Bloomberg or Factset only if you are financial markets or related areas as part of your employment.

Bloomberg is available on app stores (Android and IOs) for mobile downloads and even the free version is absolutely awesome and very useful. I think Factset May be too but I have only used desktop professional paid version in my past.

Turgid
05-20-20, 20:32
Link to DW article about permanent closures here.

https://www.dw.com/en/german-lawmakers-call-for-buying-sex-to-be-made-permanently-illegal/a-53504221?maca=en-EMail-sharingI would not say bad news yet. There are always haters who want to prevent action between two consenting adults behind closed doors.

Sebastiane
05-20-20, 21:01
I would not say bad news yet. There are always haters who want to prevent action between two consenting adults behind closed doors.I don't think that Germany will adopt the Nordic model and expect business to return to normal once social distancing measures end -- probably in a couple of months at most. There is just too much money pouring into Germany from the sex industry for them to do something so stupid.

If it did happen, all the girls will just move to Austria, Switzerland, Spain and Holland. Don't you think Germans know that?

MaxSquatter
05-20-20, 21:37
Right. And how many lawmakers make up the body of the government? 16 wrote a letter. How many then did not take part in the letter?


I would not say bad news yet. There are always haters who want to prevent action between two consenting adults behind closed doors.

Sirioja
05-20-20, 22:27
Haut les coeurs! I checked the stats and yesterday the total deaths went from 28,239 to 28,022 -- a rise of only -0. 77%.

When I first read that, I was thrilled, but on second thoughts I'm not sure I like the idea of Coronavirus victims bashing their way out of coffins and shambling around Notre Dame at night, getting very bitey, etc. Believe me, sometimes death is the better option.28022 deaths on Tuesday, 28132 today, around 100 per day, in hospitals and old people residences, and you add about 7000 people, doctors preferred to let die quietly in their bed at home, with family around them, even with mask, because they were too weak and sick to be saved. 90% deaths are older than 65 yo. I keep on trusting french medical staff, because these bad figures have explanations. Nurses with low earning are to be thank, when Sanofi boss should be careful not to fall like Louis XVI, even we will check vaccine before using, not to kill too many, we don't follow crazy Trump.

Sirioja
05-20-20, 22:40
I don't think that Germany will adopt the Nordic model and expect business to return to normal once social distancing measures end -- probably in a couple of months at most. There is just too much money pouring into Germany from the sex industry for them to do something so stupid.

If it did happen, all the girls will just move to Austria, Switzerland, Spain and Holland. Don't you think Germans know that?Do you think German politics care much about Romanians and where they go? Most of this business money go to Romania, and bit to Bulgaria, when I visit a club, I would say I give 50/60 to Germany and 200/300 to Romania. Brothels are nothing for money for powerful Germany and also nothing for tourism. Bavaria which is the most touristic, is nothing for brothels. Higher rates for girls business in Austria, Switzerland and even Spain.

Sirioja
05-20-20, 23:13
Well some low educated mentioned about national debt, so I explained what is going on. Again we are the only G7 nation who can print our own money at our will owning our own central bank ourselves and our bond is solely backed by japanese yen so we decide, this is most important when it comes to country management. We wanted that after ww2 and we appeal to interest of USA and we managed to convince USA who are our best friend and ally.

As for people. This is the system and you are half true, Japanese government sees citizen as foot soldiers LOL this is reality of it if you look deep into what is going on, it is going on due to immigration though, someone mentioned about decrease in population and this is problem in all G7 nations, people are smarter so don't make kids, so most G7 nations went for immigration long ago beside Japan, but we too are opening our door, but we are learning from mistakes of EU immigration and we are trying to choose better. But people live good here, there is no poverty almost in Japan, I mean anyone who has been here know that we rarely have homeless and if there are it is by choice..Maybe I don't understand well, but when 1500 USD are close to minimum salary in France, you can't live good in France, nor in Germany nor US with only 1500 USD per month, you can't live in Paris, London, Mainhattan with so low money, maybe in Bucharest, and life is less expensive in Germany than in France and much less tax and charge. When I finished school, quite a bit ago, my first full time job which was my passion, was better paid and I could rebuild a RS500 which was crashed and alone, but I fell in love, rebuilding her and kept her for 25 years and 3 girlfriends who were jealous about her. When H3 engine was really tired, then I enjoyed so much rodeo girl, real passion, despite crashes, but rebuilt her when expert told she is dead, I give you what she worth. Yes, give me, but she is not dead because I love her too much. 1500 USD would not even be enough for credit for flat I bought, how could I have my life with such tip, fortunately I make at least 5 times and I need, and if I was still motivated for somebody, working more, but I don't need, I m sure I could make nearly 10 times, but I don't need money for when I will die. I know guys who spend this per day in FKK land and are there 6 days per week. We really don't have same standards and way and level of life. I don't care about Sanofi running for vaccine, I m only interested by level of life, and I work to live as I like, not working more because I don't need, but I worked outside under virus, to save my job.

PayForIt
05-21-20, 00:02
I don't think that Germany will adopt the Nordic model and expect business to return to normal once social distancing measures end -- probably in a couple of months at most. There is just too much money pouring into Germany from the sex industry for them to do something so stupid.

If it did happen, all the girls will just move to Austria, Switzerland, Spain and Holland. Don't you think Germans know that?Spot on. It won't happen. German economists are too bright to allow the loss of a fairly unique position in the market.

Mr Ho
05-21-20, 00:04
Link to DW article about permanent closures here.

https://www.dw.com/en/german-lawmakers-call-for-buying-sex-to-be-made-permanently-illegal/a-53504221?maca=en-EMail-sharingYou always have some politicians who are like this in every nation, but it is only minority. They may regulate it further, but it won't die.

Even it does, mongers are mortal, we just migrate to next country, which are Switzerland and Austria.

In the worst case, I hear there is a promise land called Brazil on the other side, deep in amazonian jungle, there is a final promise land LOL!

Mongers are mortal being, we just migrate LOL!

Pessimist
05-21-20, 00:41
I don't think that Germany will adopt the Nordic model and expect business to return to normal once social distancing measures end -- probably in a couple of months at most. There is just too much money pouring into Germany from the sex industry for them to do something so stupid.

If it did happen, all the girls will just move to Austria, Switzerland, Spain and Holland. Don't you think Germans know that?I hope you are right and I think you are too. I just don't know to what extent economic benefits factored into the decision to allow prostitution at scale in Germany relative to other neighboring countries. I don't know the amount of direct tax benefits and number of jobs tied to this business directly or indirectly. It probably is not insubstantial. On the other hand, other countries in the region can also open their countries to prostitution to the same extent that DE did but they haven't and that is because money is not the only factor that goes into this formula. And we simply don't know which way the political wind is blowing in DE at the moment on this issue.

Clodius1
05-21-20, 00:49
I would not say bad news yet. There are always haters who want to prevent action between two consenting adults behind closed doors.I hope that you are right and that ice bears can return to DE FKK. For me, I enjoy visiting DE for many reasons. I like the people there, the excellent food, the safe streets etc. But if FKK is closed for good, I will have to chase after die madchen elsewhere, Holland, Wien, Swiss etc.

Faburi
05-21-20, 00:55
Hi guys!

Nice to meet you all, I'm new to the forum. I'd like to ask you if someone know about the situation of stripclubs in Sofia, are they open? Or will they open in the near future? Thank you!

ExpatLover
05-21-20, 02:17
Spot on. It won't happen. German economists are too bright to allow the loss of a fairly unique position in the market.

Need to have a look where the money in going: concerning the girls mostly outside Germany, a lot of FKK, brothels are owned by the rocker gangs, the German government is putting a lot of pressure on them in the recent years. A lot of foreign visitors are already on business trip when they go to the prostitutes, therefor no big impact on the hotel industry, for the local it is changing nothing. Not so sure things will return to normal and even if any cluster will happen in a FKK or brothel for sure they will close for long time.

Mr Ho
05-21-20, 04:02
Hi guys!

Nice to meet you all, I'm new to the forum. I'd like to ask you if someone know about the situation of stripclubs in Sofia, are they open? Or will they open in the near future? Thank you!Sofia as in Bulgaria?

If so, check out Bulgaria threat, I am sure there is. Try hitting Europe section and scroll down to find Bulgaria, it maybe more helpful to you if you mean Sofia in Bulgaria.

If it is Sofia strip club in Germany if there is one. Nobody knows beside German government when it will be open, even though many forum posters like to share the information only German government would know and decide, but sex forum poster seems to think this is some kind of free mason level secret society called international sex forum LOL!

Chongmal
05-21-20, 04:38
Hi guys!

Nice to meet you all, I'm new to the forum. I'd like to ask you if someone know about the situation of stripclubs in Sofia, are they open? Or will they open in the near future? Thank you!If you are talking Bulgaria, you have missed the forum thread by a couple countries. If you do go there, I say avoid The Fetish Club. It is about paying way too much for cheap Champaign while trying to get you into a closet with a lady for even more charges. If you do go, and spend enough, they may give you a ride back to your hotel. That's what I heard from a friend.

Mr Ho
05-21-20, 06:05
Spot on. It won't happen. German economists are too bright to allow the loss of a fairly unique position in the market.

Need to have a look where the money in going: concerning the girls mostly outside Germany, a lot of FKK, brothels are owned by the rocker gangs, the German government is putting a lot of pressure on them in the recent years. A lot of foreign visitors are already on business trip when they go to the prostitutes, therefor no big impact on the hotel industry, for the local it is changing nothing. Not so sure things will return to normal and even if any cluster will happen in a FKK or brothel for sure they will close for long time.Colloseum is owned by bikers I think, or whatever that place is called now. Rest, I cannot think of any mega clubs that are owned by bikers beside they do send in some girls in, which I welcome.

Tedesco
05-21-20, 07:13
.... the situation of stripclubs in Sofia, are they open? Or will they open in the near future?Welcome in the section Europe / Bulgaria ..... Sofia.

Tedesco
05-21-20, 07:54
...... a lot of foreign visitors are already on business trip ... go to the prostitutes ... no big impact on the hotel industry, for the local it is changing nothing ...That's currently a perfect fit for German politics to shut down the FKK and club area in complete. But a new greyzone will be created producing new battle fields for reallocation of assets between the participants in the background. Within the last two decades the rising-up of FKK and sauna clubs created a kind of coat lying on top for the bad sex industry as there was the idea that this should be the best way to handle with P6 in its own closed microcosm located far away from civil life as located outside a big city or even in the hinterland. This was working well until 2010 as the sexworkers in the first decade of this century also saw a chance of new independency. Matching civil life as a hairdresser or medical assistant spending the weekend or the holidays in a club to earn some more money. This was the decade women came over to make their money in Germany buying an apartment in their homecountry (Poland, CZ, Hungary).

The new mobility by members of the European Union resulted in a flooding of German clubs by Romanian women. At least three times per year that each television broadcasting channel produced a documentary on that issue in order to raise attention for criminal aspects. Romanian women meanwhile represent at least 80% of German club scene. And this exploitation has to be stopped as a political task. In addition the health care system in Germany needs new staff which can be recruited that way some may think. A pretty idea, but the ones who come over to Germany to work in the sex industry also recognize that the amount of money to make this way in few years can be much more compared to the salary to earn in a civil job.

Sirioja
05-21-20, 11:26
Hi guys!

Nice to meet you all, I'm new to the forum. I'd like to ask you if someone know about the situation of stripclubs in Sofia, are they open? Or will they open in the near future? Thank you!In which lander is Sofia? Bavaria close to Garmisch-Partenkirchen? But I know can find many Bulgarians with average teeth in RTC, can see cars at 10 am, working as taxi, but not written taxi on car, maybe Uber from Sofia. Long drive.

Sirioja
05-21-20, 11:50
Europe should decide on mid June for free moving inside EU for Europeans. Austria may be first for business, but can t compete with Paris with street girls with no mask seen since 12 May. I can't understand how Police let these girls work, even prostitution is not illegal in France. But clients can be prosecuted. No risk when going to escorts and much better hygiene.

Sirioja
05-21-20, 12:50
When Trump claims to take chloroquine for breakfast, french doctors except one decided chloroquine have no real efficiency to cure from virus but can kill many from heart attack, maybe could help US, when from ex communist Slovenia Melania Knaus seems much more clever than him, when a model can be more clever than most powerful country president. Reasons to worry about crazy. US should be far over 100 thousand deaths, even mostly Afro Americabns, before elections.

Turgid
05-21-20, 14:09
I hope that you are right and that ice bears can return to DE FKK. For me, I enjoy visiting DE for many reasons. I like the people there, the excellent food, the safe streets etc. But if FKK is closed for good, I will have to chase after die madchen elsewhere, Holland, Wien, Swiss etc.I have pursued our hobby all over the world. Prior to 2008 Geylang in Singapore was my favorite hobbying site with its streets being a smorgasbord of hundreds nay thousands of delights from South East Asia, then there was a shut down in 2009. Buenos Aires then became my favorite with choices of the most beautiful women in the world to be had all over the city then there was a shut down around 2011/12. Then Changping in China became my favorite with thousands of Chinese beauties available for the taking in saunas and KTVs then the Chinese government shut that down in 2014. Then German FKKs, which I had been visiting since early 2000's became my favorite until my last visit in March this year. Will it continue to be my favorite? Time will tell.

Sirioja
05-21-20, 22:39
When Trump claims to take chloroquine for breakfast, french doctors except one decided chloroquine have no real efficiency to cure from virus but can kill many from heart attack, maybe could help US, when from ex communist Slovenia Melania Knaus seems much more clever than him, when a model can be more clever than most powerful country president. Reasons to worry about crazy. US should be far over 100 thousand deaths, even mostly Afro Americabns, before elections.According to real qualified doctors, not crazy, Chinese killer virus seem strong around 10 Celsius degrees, less under 5 or above 25, can explain some figures and fortunately for Africa, when south America and Brazil are falling in trouble now, when Autumn for them. Brazil is competing with US now.

BaltiX
05-21-20, 23:23
There always been opponents to prostitution or any kind of sex work. This is nothing new. Besides it's only 16 MPs (or claimed to be by the media) that are calling for it. Not sure if it's all 16 MPs that want to ban prostitution.

Beijing4987
05-21-20, 23:36
I hope that you are right and that ice bears can return to DE FKK. For me, I enjoy visiting DE for many reasons. I like the people there, the excellent food, the safe streets etc. But if FKK is closed for good, I will have to chase after die madchen elsewhere, Holland, Wien, Swiss etc.Yes. There are Thai, Indian, Italian, and Turkish (Kurd) restaurants in Germany. I asked the owner of an Indian restaurant in Hamburg about the northern German people. He said "cool". He had been in Hamburg for 20 years and had no German friends. He did not mention crime or street traffic.

Chongmal
05-22-20, 07:03
Let me name a few of, ehmm, his well advertised attributes: Tiny Hands, Egotistical, Arrogant, Deflectionist, Delusional, Issues recognizing truth from delusion, pays lots of money for prostitutes, Superiority Complex, crap writer and speaker of the English language, offensive, denies reality, thinks everyone loves him, continually insults the lady who openly criticized him. And I'm sure I've missed some. I was sure there could only be one. Then we elected Trump president.

ExpatLover
05-22-20, 07:11
When Trump claims to take chloroquine for breakfast, french doctors except one decided chloroquine have no real efficiency to cure from virus but can kill many from heart attack, maybe could help US, when from ex communist Slovenia Melania Knaus seems much more clever than him, when a model can be more clever than most powerful country president. Reasons to worry about crazy. US should be far over 100 thousand deaths, even mostly Afro Americabns, before elections.

Most of the travellers including me to africa are taking this medicine for decades without any side effects, all the Indian medical staff is taking it, widely used in south Korea, China and all in France, just it is a cheap medicine no interest for the health industry in collusion with some politics to push that solution.

The Cane
05-22-20, 12:05
Then we elected Trump president.Please remove "me" from that "we". I may be crazy, but I'm not stupid! As another poster on this site noted, why doesn't he go ahead and double his dosage of the chloroquine? After all. What's he got to lose? Ha!

Rocky V
05-22-20, 12:56
When Trump claims to take chloroquine for breakfast, french doctors except one decided chloroquine have no real efficiency to cure from virus but can kill many from heart attack, maybe could help US, when from ex communist Slovenia Melania Knaus seems much more clever than him, when a model can be more clever than most powerful country president. Reasons to worry about crazy. US should be far over 100 thousand deaths, even mostly Afro Americabns, before elections.

Most of the travellers including me to africa are taking this medicine for decades without any side effects, all the Indian medical staff is taking it, widely used in south Korea, China and all in France, just it is a cheap medicine no interest for the health industry in collusion with some politics to push that solution.OK, there is absolutely NO evidence that the use of Chloroquine and hydroxychloroquine for Covid-19 is safe and effective. This is because the presence of viruses or other infections can change the side effects of a drug. This editorial explains it very well: https://www.bmj.com/content/369/bmj.m1432.long . '. wide use of hydroxychloroquine will expose some patients to rare but potentially fatal harms, including serious cutaneous adverse reactions, fulminant hepatic failure, and ventricular arrhythmias (especially when prescribed with azithromycin) 27; overdose is hazardous and difficult to treat.'

Dreams
05-22-20, 13:02
First, we talk about REGISTERED deaths. Sweden (and Belgium) are good on identifying the real death reason.

Different countries count Corona-deaths in different ways.
In other countries, deaths by Corona are obviously underestimated.

And here is the real reason to many deaths in Stockholm.

Second, most deaths in Stockholm are people from poor immigration ghettos, where people do not understand Swedish and have not been able to assimilate information about Corona.

On the other hand, immunity in Stockholm is now very high - well prepared for "the second wave".What do you mean by "very high"? Any studies available, or just a "guess"? In any case you need up to 70% herd immunity, I doubt you will have that.

And trying to put the high death rates in Sweden on poor immigrants would be laughable, if not very sad, when even locally produced data show that it was essentially in care homes. And elderly people left exposed to wide virus circulation.

Swedes don't ALWAYS get it right, in spite of what some of them would like to believe. They even messed up the way they manage (d) immigration, and now, compared to their neighbours, Danmark, Finland, Norway, they look terribly bad, to the point that they will be excluded form the free tracel Scandinavian bubble. So you will continue frolicking in Stockholm's parks, but won't be allowed anywhere else during the summer!

Good luck my friend!

Sirioja
05-22-20, 13:27
But we have deaths, not from virus, but killed by chloroquine with heart attack. Real facts, maybe French have more fragile heart than others. I won t take with my intense sports with heart in red zone for hours, sometimes under more than 35 Celsius degrees, in Bonette, Agnel, Izoard.

A bit like Viagra, be careful when You are not doctor, some medicine can kill.

ShooBree
05-22-20, 19:59
What do you mean by "very high"? Any studies available, or just a "guess"? In any case you need up to 70% herd immunity, I doubt you will have that.

And trying to put the high death rates in Sweden on poor immigrants would be laughable, if not very sad, when even locally produced data show that it was essentially in care homes. And elderly people left exposed to wide virus circulation.

Swedes don't ALWAYS get it right, in spite of what some of them would like to believe. They even messed up the way they manage (d) immigration, and now, compared to their neighbours, Danmark, Finland, Norway, they look terribly bad, to the point that they will be excluded form the free tracel Scandinavian bubble. So you will continue frolicking in Stockholm's parks, but won't be allowed anywhere else during the summer!

Good luck my friend!I've noticed that you got a inferiority complex going on but excess deaths shows that countries like Spain and Italy aren't even close to report the correct number of Covid-19 related deaths. Unlike Sweden and Belgium. In country after country the immigrant communities are showing a higher degree of mortality, that's a fact. Well, the point is that Swedish economy is doing much better than our neighbors. Too many countries have butchered their economies, 40 million newly unemployed in the US and the Mediterranean countries are now back begging EU and the North for more money. They've never been able to take care of themselves, like big ass children.

Sweden got it right as usual, better economy and statistics than Spain, Italy, Belgium, France and the UK despite not having any lockdown and the fact that many of those countries are grossly underreporting the number of deaths.

Swedes could easily go to Portugal if they wanted to, you should stop hating and start reading the news.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.express.co.uk/travel/articles/1284355/Portugal-holidays-2020-coronavirus-travel-advice-fco-news-latest-algarve-Azores-Madeira/amp

Polyamorist
05-22-20, 20:53
What do you mean by "very high"? Any studies available, or just a "guess"? In any case you need up to 70% herd immunity, I doubt you will have that.
Salaam Dreams and Arnold. The herd immunity threshold for coronavirus is generally quoted as 60%. But a recent model from Swedish and UK scientists found it could be just 43%. There's a lot of doubt. Wikipedia says 29 - 74%.

I guess in Stockholm they have 20-30% infected by now. It will be interesting to see what effect that has on the R0 number, and if Sweden will end up better than its locked-down neighbors.

Sirioja
05-22-20, 21:05
OK, there is absolutely NO evidence that the use of Chloroquine and hydroxychloroquine for Covid-19 is safe and effective. This is because the presence of viruses or other infections can change the side effects of a drug. This editorial explains it very well: https://www.bmj.com/content/369/bmj.m1432.long . '. wide use of hydroxychloroquine will expose some patients to rare but potentially fatal harms, including serious cutaneous adverse reactions, fulminant hepatic failure, and ventricular arrhythmias (especially when prescribed with azithromycin) 27; overdose is hazardous and difficult to treat.'In France, chloroquine is not considered efficient versus covid, and many health accidents after taking. Quite dangerous if taken like a bonbon.

Sirioja
05-22-20, 21:22
What do you mean by "very high"? Any studies available, or just a "guess"? In any case you need up to 70% herd immunity, I doubt you will have that.

And trying to put the high death rates in Sweden on poor immigrants would be laughable, if not very sad, when even locally produced data show that it was essentially in care homes. And elderly people left exposed to wide virus circulation.

Swedes don't ALWAYS get it right, in spite of what some of them would like to believe. They even messed up the way they manage (d) immigration, and now, compared to their neighbours, Danmark, Finland, Norway, they look terribly bad, to the point that they will be excluded form the free tracel Scandinavian bubble. So you will continue frolicking in Stockholm's parks, but won't be allowed anywhere else during the summer!

Good luck my friend!Yes, with no confined, old people are in danger in Stockholm, with many deaths, but in France, 90% deaths are more than 65 yo. No proof, recovering give immunity, according to French doctors and very average reliability for tests because depend when you are tested about catching, if you are not infected yet.

Rogue Nation
05-22-20, 22:34
Salaam Dreams and Arnold. The herd immunity threshold for coronavirus is generally quoted as 60%. But a recent model from Swedish and UK scientists found it could be just 43%. There's a lot of doubt. Wikipedia says 29 - 74%.

I guess in Stockholm they have 20-30% infected by now. It will be interesting to see what effect that has on the R0 number, and if Sweden will end up better than its locked-down neighbors.Relation of deaths to # of inhabitants in Sweden is 3 x as high as in Germany. Trending worse.

No heard immunity around the corner there as well. Former forecasts of high percentages of infections (30%) for Stockholm have been reduced to around 7% max.

RN.

ExpatLover
05-23-20, 03:37
In France, chloroquine is not considered efficient versus covid, and many health accidents after taking. Quite dangerous if taken like a bonbon.

For how many years we are taking it to fight malaria, personally I took it at least 10 times, all the India medical staff are taking it, widely used in China and Korea, have a look at the notice of aspirin not sure you will ever take one.

PaulInZurich
05-23-20, 08:05
Salaam Dreams and Arnold. The herd immunity threshold for coronavirus is generally quoted as 60%. But a recent model from Swedish and UK scientists found it could be just 43%. There's a lot of doubt. Wikipedia says 29 - 74%.Since we are all speculating around here I'll throw in my guess here as well. I think herd immunity threshold depends on where you live. In a rural, more remote area, the threshold can be much lower than in a big city where you mix with hundreds different people every day (public transit, large office buildings, shopping malls, etc).

So far all studies about general population rate of infection have found that less than 10% people were infected so far, most were quoting 5-7% (Sweden, France, Germany, Spain, Italy, US, Switzerland). That includes studies done specifically in areas where there were many reported infections.

Arnold15
05-23-20, 08:38
Relation of deaths to # of inhabitants in Sweden is 3 x as high as in Germany. Trending worse.

No heard immunity around the corner there as well. Former forecasts of high percentages of infections (30%) for Stockholm have been reduced to around 7% max.

RN.Statistics on REPORTED Corona-deaths in Sweden comapring with other countries is WORTHLESS.

It simply depends on that different countries identify real reasons to deaths in different ways.
Here, Belgium and Sweden are top countries since they identify the death reason - other countries (like France) do not.

The only way to calculate Corona-death are as follows:
Number of dead in April 2020 divided by average number of dead in April 2015-19.

Then you get how many percent died more than normal.
And this figure in Sweden is not higher 2020 than 1993, when there was a severe influence.
Comapring period February - May in Sweden 2020 with 2018, then only 1700 more dead people in 2020!
Almost all of them multi-dicesease and average age of 81!


Immunity is much higher than 7 % in Sweden and Stockholm. The Swedish Government has simply only poor test kit to identify antibodies.
At least 50 percent at my work place have had Corona - and it was like a cold for most of them.

Average age of "corona-identified" deaths is 81 years in Sweden.
Corona is only dangerous for ol people with underlying diseases.

Report from Stockholm.
And there is a real free life here.

And people do not die in the streets as some people at this forum seem to believe.


And only wait for the second wave. TSUNAMI in France and BREAZE in Sweden

BigBuddy69
05-23-20, 08:50
And people do not die in the streets as some poeple from France at this forum seem to believe.Only one please, most people in France don't live in their own reality.

Delta Indigo
05-23-20, 09:47
I am not going to respond to anyone directly here and not aim any of the following assertions at anyone, it is just an illustration of some collected analysis from sources and not mere hearsay or anecdotal evidence.

This is a global forum where a lot of people are accustomed to travel and although not everyone here might have an elite education or be very articulate I am surprised at the nationalist chest thumping and to say it kindly the lack of a broad perspective when it comes to discussing the Covid19 pandemic. I was of two minds writing this, some of the responses I have read lack any intellectual rigor whatsoever and can not be construed of as rational arguments, but I have decided to respond nevertheless.

So why has Sweden become an issue of debate here, because it is the sole country in Europe that has advocated against an enforced lock down. So either Sweden knows something every other country in the Europe and wider world, with the exception of wonderfully rational politicians like Bolsanaro, does not know. Or it has chosen a questionable path that even its Nordic neighbors have rejected. The simple assertion that Sweden is right and everyone else is wrong is highly dubious, we will know at the very end of this but the evidence to date is not compelling.

- Arguments to dispute the assertions I have read on this forum.

1. We are not sacrificing our economy that also entails a cost, yes it does, but many countries have chosen this cost and not lightly, this represents a weak argument since in Sweden the economic cost of this pandemic is high anyhow, in fact it is in line with the contraction of the Eurozone and its Nordic neighbors, so if anyone was avoiding a lock down to defray the economic costs, this has not worked.

https://www.politico.eu/article/swedens-cant-escape-economic-hit-with-covid-19-light-touch/

2. We are going to reach herd immunity faster and avoid a second wave, this is in fact possible, but to date there is no evidence for this. Arguments like half the people have had it and we can't measure it are not serious assertions to base policies on, I at one point thought I had had it in March, however you can not be sure and I won't take the risk to get it.

The study in Sweden we have says that Stockholm is far from herd immunity.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/may/21/just-7-per-cent-of-stockholm-had-covid-19-antibodies-by-end-of-april-study-sweden-coronavirus

In fact the scientists that had predicted higher levels of herd immunity are surprised and said that their model has some seriously false assumptions behind it. Saying you know this is wrong isn't an argument to base serious policy on, it could be wrong and you could also win the lottery tomorrow.

3. The mortality rate is lower than other countries with a lock down. This is increasingly wrong with time.

I had said earlier that certain countries are in different phases of the pandemic, obviously Italy being ahead of the game, and without a lockdown the numbers would increase in Sweden. The fairest comparison would be with countries with similar population densities and climates, ie its Nordic neighbors, I don't think I have to quote any statistics here, they are all too obvious, but the mortality rate and rate of increasing cases in Sweden is many times higher than those countries, there is no doubt about it.

There are many factors as to why a country would have a higher Covid 19 mortality rate, higher population densities and high levels of vitamin D deficiency tend to be a factor. About the vitamin D deficiency, the Nordic countries do not have it but the Mediterranean countries, ie Spain and Italy do, this explains quite a bit.

First the argument was that Sweden had a lower mortality rate than many countries, ie the Netherlands (the most densely populated country in Europe), but now it has supassed the Netherlands and many other countries. The latest argument is that only 5 countries now surpass it. Yes some countries have down worse with a belated or late lock down.

Let us take the UK, this country has had an enormously disastrous and inefficient response to the pandemic, it a long with other countries, was late to respond, so nothing to be proud of here and furthermore England, just England, is even more densely populated than the Netherlands. Italy was first on the scene in Europe and represents a special case. Having a mortality rate lower than these examples is not a compelling argument to say that the national strategy in Sweden was correct. The best contrast would be with similar countries.

4. Only Sweden and Belgium count deaths accurately and in fact the mortality rate is lower than other countries that under count. I have read no evidence of the methodology in Sweden to support this, every country is under counting its deaths with the possible exception of Belgium. The reason is simple, Belgium attributes all non verified causes of death to Covid 19, so it is probably the only country that is over counting, as far as I know Sweden does not do this, does anyone have a credible source to counter this?

I am in fact disappointed that higher levels of immunity are not present and it would have been better for all of us in fact if this strategy was working, but there is not enough, or any, convincing statistical evidence to back this up yet. Therefore this blind sighted confidence in this unique policy is misplaced at present.

The only remaining argument I have heard is that the second wave will be far milder than other countries, that we will have to wait and see, however if it is not, than many people have died in vain. By the way, Herd Immunity was a strategy considered by quite a few European countries, notably the UK, and rejected due to the projected death toll.

Sirioja
05-23-20, 09:58
Statistics on REPORTED Corona-deaths in Sweden comapring with other countries is WORTHLESS.

It simply depends on that different countries identify real reasons to deaths in different ways.
Here, Belgium and Sweden are top countries since they identify the death reason - other countries (like France) do not.

The only way to calculate Corona-death are as follows:
Number of dead in April 2020 divided by average number of dead in April 2015-19.

Then you get how many percent died more than normal.In France, 90% deaths are older than 65 yo and 80% older than 75 yo, so a healthy, fit French under 60 yo, even better if a woman and smoker don t have much risk of big problem about virus, but can give big problem to beloved relatives. Since 11 May, our R0 didn't explode, I think we can judge at the end of the month after more than 15 days and even better on mid June after 30 days, to decide to open borders, but killer virus may not be so strong now when 30 Celsius degrees in Paris, many French want to feel sun on them, to go to swim in sea, to get better mood, to feel free. I would like to go to free ride to feel to fly like a free bird. But FKK land is a real playfield to spread with many old and fat, and when see what happen in South America entering in Winter with lower temperatures, let s wait for next November. Highest deaths rate in Stockholm than in Paris, but on NYC level, when Stockholm don t have same density for people than Paris nor NYC, Swedish made their choice, like NL, I would have made the same, even confined saved more than 60000 life, double than deaths in France, so on this confined point, our politics were right, but not about economic crisis with many unemployment.

Arnold15
05-23-20, 10:43
Unfortunately, knowledge about statistcs in this forum is zero.
Continuing comparing apples with pies.
People refer to investigations about antibodies and Corona-deaths with no value at all.

Only statistics on "excess deaths" are valid. And the real conclusion will be known after the second wave.

If anyone really thinks that one can not become immune after Covid-19, then there will neither be any vaccine that works.

Comparing death rates in Sweden with neighboring countries at this moment is nonsense, since Sweden must have XX times more infected (and immune) than Norway, Denmark and Finland that have applied a total premature lock-down strategy.

People claim that "the Swedish strategy is dubious " and "Sweden makes an experiment by NOT locking down". (Sweden is not the only country, also Belarus).
But in reality, it is the opposite.
European countries that lock-down their economies undertake the biggest experiment in modern history.

Amazing that people don't know how similar pandemies have been handled in the past.
During the Asian and HongKong-influences in the 1950's and 1960's there was no lock down whatsoever.
And the economies recovered very fast after the pandemies.

This lock-down is something completely NEW and a real EXPERIMENT.
This time, it will take very long time for economies to recover, due to the stupid lock-down strategy.

No, Sweden does not know anything that other countries do not know. We simply do what is normal in such a situation.

Other European countries have swallowed the "fake news" from China that the whole population must be isolated to handle the pandemic.
Bull-shit.
When most Euroopean countries locked down their economies, the risk groups of Covid-19 were already identified and known world-wide: Old people with underlying diseases.
Most countries decided to isolate their young populations anyway! Not a very clever strategy.

Yes, Sweden did two BIG MISTAKES:
1. Older people in retirement homes were NOT isolated (Instead secondary schools and universities were closed!) Elderly people at these homes continued to meet 10-20 different assistants per week. This is death group No. 1 in Sweden.
2. Older people in immigrant areas were not informed about Covid-19, because they do not understand Swedish. (Reflecting the disastrous Swedish immigration and integration policies). This is death group No. 2 in Sweden.

Sirioja
05-23-20, 12:28
Please remove "me" from that "we". I may be crazy, but I'm not stupid! As another poster on this site noted, why doesn't he go ahead and double his dosage of the chloroquine? After all. What's he got to lose? Ha!I'm not American and unfortunately in France we don't have often a president who learned arithmetic for economy at school, but Trump and Bolzonaro are same crazy with same results. I may not be clever enough or maybe my social side, but compare to Obama, just Niagara falls, from my point of view, when Trump is same ready for anything than WGs. Maybe more dangerous than Putin. Can t understand telling about pride when just behaving ridiculous. For sure, not a good image for US in Western Europe, maybe for Japan about China. I also don't understand about still free weapons when no more Navajos with arrows, and crazy shooting every day people, most often Black, like Brunswick Georgia. When no more far west.

McAdonis
05-23-20, 12:32
What works for Sweden would not necessarily work for other countries. One, Sweden only has three cities with a population of over 300 K. Two, Sweden is a rich country and with low levels of inequality, in terms of money and access to medical care. This does not hold true for countries like Brazil. The population of Sao Paulo (12 million urban, 21 million metro) is larger than the entire country of Sweden (10 million). Poor people in Brazil do not have the option to social distance nor do they have the savings to sit at and home and reduce their exposure. In earlier forecasts, the Swedish authorities predicted 33 percent immunity by early May, but that figure currently sits at 7 percent in Stockholm. This suggests that Swedish have been fairly good at practicing social distancing, despite there being no "official lockdown".


Sweden's approach has been unique in that most people exhibit a sense of trust and duty toward their fellow gym-goers. He said that Sweden has a culture of being more conscientious about following the rules, a phenomenon Business Insider previously reported on.

"I don't think that Swedish gyms have had a radical approach to this situation, it's just that people are a bit more mindful and careful," he said. "It mostly comes down to gym-goers feeling that sense of social responsibility."

https://www.insider.com/what-its-like-gyms-in-sweden-where-lockdowns-never-happened-2020-5

Brazil's death toll meanwhile surged past 20,000 Thursday.

A closer look at the data raises questions about the widely held idea that COVID-19 is mainly dangerous for the elderly.

Of Brazil's victims, 69 percent were aged 60 or older, compared with 95 percent in Spain and Italy, according to official statistics.

The disparity is partly driven by the age of the overall populace: Just 13.6 percent of Brazil's population is 60 or older, compared to 25 percent in Spain and 28 percent in Italy.

https://www.thejakartapost.com/news/2020/05/22/in-brazil-covid-19-hitting-young-people-harder.html

Rocky V
05-23-20, 12:46
Unfortunately, knowledge about statistcs in this forum is zero.
Continuing comparing apples with pies.
People refer to investigations about antibodies and Corona-deaths with no value at all.

Only statistics on "excess deaths" are valid. And the real conclusion will be known after the second wave.Excess deaths can only be observed after the virus has disappeared, not after a 'second wave, which nobody wants to happen. It is still relevant to compare deaths with covid-infected patients under an epidemiological and medical point of view.


If anyone really thinks that one can not become immune after Covid-19, then there will neither be any vaccine that works.Virus may become attenuated (I. E. Weaker) like Spanish flu and remain in the population without the need of a vaccine. It may also disappear like with Sars. There are many ways in which a pandemic can end, not only through a vaccine, which remains the best and quickest way though!


People claim that "the Swedish strategy is dubious " and "Sweden makes an experiment by NOT locking down". (Sweden is not the only country, also Belarus)Let me understand here, you want to take Belarus as a credible example in support of the Swedish approach to the pandemic. Belarus? A country, whose president said he doesn't believe in the pandemic because, and I quote, 'he does not see Covid fly in the air'? Really Arnold?

In addition, the vulnerable groups are NOT only elderly people with underlying conditions, but also all other people with respiratory diseases (including Asthma, COPD, CF etc.) all those recovering from cancer treatment, people of all ages with cardiovascular and kidney conditions and I stopped here because the list would be too long. There was absolutely no way of knowing the most vulnerable groups at the beginning of the pandemic because it was a brand new virus and, even now, we still do not fully understand how it works. DO NOT SPREAD FAKE NEWS and listen to the experts.

Sweden have chosen to avoid the lockdown and they now have almost 4000 deaths (or 389 every 1 M people) after having done 20,000 tests every 1 M people. Other countries with similar population size like Czechia, which closed down very early in the epidemic, they have 29 deaths every 1 M people) after having done 36,000 tests every 1 M people.

Sweden has taken a gamble and now they are counting corpses.

ShooBree
05-23-20, 13:39
I'm amazed that people can write about strategies against the Coronavirus without even mentioning the economy!

If the only single goal was to lower the number of deaths caused by see-19 all countries would still be in quarantine!

What Bolsonaro understands is that a lockdown would completely butcher the Brazilian economy! He's afraid of the consequences of a lockdown! He is looking one step further, being smarter, than people screaming in fear because of a virus. I'm extremely disappointed by the other political leaders. It will be rough for us in Nothern Europe, rougher for those in the South and a catastrophe for Brazil. 40 million unemployed in the US, but let's act as if there will be no consequences.

I've been reading comments that without a lockdown everyone will die or half of all people will die. Today we can easily dismiss those claims as scaremongering.

So how many would die? I don't know. No one knows. In Sweden we have 59 deaths among people under 50 years, is that much? I don't think so considering the consequences of a lockdown. This virus is killing the people that pretty much could die from anything.

I would love to blast our government for their incompetence, because they truly are incompetent, but no lockdown was a great and courageous decision to take. It's got nothing to do with nationalism, it was simply the right thing to do in my opinion.

In other countries people have too much of a sunk cost to admit or even entertain the thought that they might have been better off without a lockdown. That in combination with populistic politicians, the media and scared / dumb people lead to the acceptance of a lockdown.

As said, it's not about nationalism.

McGrath
05-23-20, 13:39
Unfortunately, knowledge about statistcs in this forum is zero.
.With that post and all the wrongs in it you include yourself in your own statement.

The Cane
05-23-20, 14:00
With that post and all the wrongs in it you include yourself in your own statement.Exactly what I was thinking and more, including a lack of knowledge regarding both medical science and history. But, enough said already.

Arnold15
05-23-20, 14:06
With that post and all the wrongs in it you include yourself in your own statement.
It is nothing wrong in that post.
I live in Stockholm and follow what happens here every day.

But people in this forum who DO NOT LIVE in Stockholm and who do not know what is going on here, seem to know more about Sweden than Swedish inhabitants.
Systematically referring to super-biased statistics.

And they do not know how to calculate "excess deaths".
And definitely do not understand what "the second wave" means.

Especially, they do not know what kind of mistakes the Swedish government did.
1. Not isolating people at retirement homes and 2. Not informing immigrant groups.

Delta Indigo
05-23-20, 14:44
It is nothing wrong in that post.
I live in Stockholm and follow what happens here every day.

But people in this forum who DO NOT LIVE in Stockholm and who do not know what is going on here, seem to know more about Sweden than Swedish inhabitants.
Systematically referring to super-biased statistics.

And they do not know how to calculate "excess deaths".
And definitely do not understand what "the second wave" means.

Especially, they do not know what kind of mistakes the Swedish government did.
1. Not isolating people at retirement homes and 2. Not informing immigrant groups.About one point, I would differ, I do know a lot about Stockholm, since I had lived there for over 3 years, but this was a long time ago. Your response is quite measured and temperate, however the arguments I have heard from others are really not rationale and are based upon certain tenets of faith. Well I am familiar with this blind faith and confidence which is inspired by nationalist feelings.

I would just gently say this, about comparing to neighboring countries with similar climates and population densities (Denmark's is a lot higher though) you can see what the differing mortality rates from a severe vs a very relaxed lock down could be, really the fairest test would be the exact same environment, but this is obviously not possible.

The level of immunity should be higher in societies which have a more relaxed or no lock down, however it seems that in every systematic test in every place these numbers are far lower than the proponents of herd immunity have advocated. Some studies say it is up to 20% in New York, that could only be the case given its very high urban density, it would be far lower in LOS Angeles (I know both cities quite well) given the lock down in both places, I these the North American lock downs are far less strict than the European ones.

I would expect Sweden to have more people who are immune, but thus far these numbers as verified by studies are still far too low and the prediction of herd immunity by June or August is premature.

The assertion that these tests are flawed and many more people are surely immune is unfortunately just a matter of faith in the absence of hard evidence.

Chongmal
05-23-20, 15:10
the North American lock downs are far less strict than the European ones.

I would expect Sweden to have more people who are immune, but thus far these numbers as verified by studies are still far too low and the prediction of herd immunity by June or August is premature..History will tell as it always does, and the winners usually get to write the story. Lockdown or no lockdown is the question and the answer is simple. The lockdown slowed the virus spread, allowing governments, hospitals and medical providers to become more prepared. This came at great expense and is delaying the spread of the virus. Not locking down let's the virus spread and in vulnerable sections of society the cost of life is higher. The reall story will arrive if / when a safe vaccination is available. If this happens this summer, then lockdown proponents will celebrate their success in saving millions of lives. If the cavaccine doesn't arrive for another 10 years the chapter will already have been written and many countries around the world will have suffered great economic loss. Of course, the antivacs groups will stand in protest, saying the government is poisoning their children.

McGrath
05-23-20, 16:30
First of all, everything about economics is wrong in that post. Sweden doesn't gain any GDP towards other countries because they are a little more open for a few months. I first came to Frankfurt because of the banks were there so I know some things about this.

Sweden is a small open economy with a floating currency, in the long view, how the rest of the world goes Sweden will go.

And the notion that Sweden is the only country that can count dead people the right way is ridicoulus.

Arnold15
05-23-20, 16:51
Not nationalistic.

It is about economic rationality.

It was early well known which people were in the risk group of Covid-19: old people with underlying diseases like hypertension, diabetes, heart- and lung-problems.

A clever strategy would be to keep society open and focus on protection of the risk groups.

Anyway, politicians like Macron chose to isolate young and healthy people and slaughter the whole society, because "other countries did the same" or "China told us to lock-down".
"If all others do the same, then this strategy must be the correct one".
But here, China has a Hidden Agenda. China wants US and Europe to lock down, in order to get an economic lead.

Many European and US firms - as in the automobile sector - will soon wake up and find themselves in a real bad position.

There is absolutely no previous experience of total lock-down and the consequences of such a non-clever strategy.
Anyway, this extremely risky strategy has been applied.
It is not possible to pause the whole economy like an X-Box game, and then believe that everything will work as usual.
Important. Unemployment will cause deaths too, in the form of suicides, mental health and alcoholism. Often people with many remaining years to live will die. But these deaths are more abstract.

As I have written, Swedish Government made severe mistakes by not isolating risk groups at retirement homes.
Visits to elderly people at retirement homes were forbidden on April 1.
Secondary schools and universities - with no risk groups - were closed on March 17 ! Compare!
Sports arenas were closed even earlier.

When Swedish people returned from Austria and Italy in February, those working in Government administration (e.g. Departments, Central bank and different authorites) were sent home.
But returning people who worked at hospitals or retirement homes were not sent home! Not very clever.

I do not have any faith whatsoever for these immunity-tests performed in Sweden.
Huge numbers have been sick with Corona-symptoms in the period February-May in Sweden.
I also know people that have tested positive for immunity. But only those who were sick the last weeks. Not those that were sick in February and March.
We do not know which level of antibodies a person must possess to get a positive test result. Several tests have circulated in Sweden the last months.


About one point, I would differ, I do know a lot about Stockholm, since I had lived there for over 3 years, but this was a long time ago. Your response is quite measured and temperate, however the arguments I have heard from others are really not rationale and are based upon certain tenets of faith. Well I am familiar with this blind faith and confidence which is inspired by nationalist feelings.

I would just gently say this, about comparing to neighboring countries with similar climates and population densities (Denmark's is a lot higher though) you can see what the differing mortality rates from a severe vs a very relaxed lock down could be, really the fairest test would be the exact same environment, but this is obviously not possible.

The level of immunity should be higher in societies which have a more relaxed or no lock down, however it seems that in every systematic test in every place these numbers are far lower than the proponents of herd immunity have advocated. Some studies say it is up to 20% in New York, that could only be the case given its very high urban density, it would be far lower in LOS Angeles (I know both cities quite well) given the lock down in both places, I these the North American lock downs are far less strict than the European ones.

I would expect Sweden to have more people who are immune, but thus far these numbers as verified by studies are still far too low and the prediction of herd immunity by June or August is premature.

The assertion that these tests are flawed and many more people are surely immune is unfortunately just a matter of faith in the absence of hard evidence.

Arnold15
05-23-20, 17:07
First of all, everything about economics is wrong in that post. Sweden doesn't gain any GDP towards other countries because they are a little more open for a few months. I first came to Frankfurt because of the banks were there so I know some things about this.

Sweden is a small open economy with a floating currency, in the long view, how the rest of the world goes Sweden will go.

And the notion that Sweden is the only country that can count dead people the right way is ridicoulus.I have never written that Sweden gain any GDP towards other countries because they are a little more open for a few months.
Did you mix the posts?

If lock-down is a clever strategy that do not harm the economy.
Why not locking down the economy for 2-3 years?
Future will show if Sweden or Spain / Italy / France will beg for money and loans from EU / ECB.

I never said that only Sweden counts Corona-dead people the right way.
I said that countries count in different ways.
In such case, comparing statistics with reported Corona-deaths between countries is worthless.

The only accurate way to compare countries is to count "excess deaths".
How many died this year compared to previous years.

Arnold15
05-23-20, 17:27
Excess deaths can only be observed after the virus has disappeared, not after a 'second wave, which nobody wants to happen. It is still relevant to compare deaths with covid-infected patients under an epidemiological and medical point of view.

Virus may become attenuated (I. E. Weaker) like Spanish flu and remain in the population without the need of a vaccine. It may also disappear like with Sars. There are many ways in which a pandemic can end, not only through a vaccine, which remains the best and quickest way though!

Let me understand here, you want to take Belarus as a credible example in support of the Swedish approach to the pandemic. Belarus? A country, whose president said he doesn't believe in the pandemic because, and I quote, 'he does not see Covid fly in the air'? Really Arnold?

In addition, the vulnerable groups are NOT only elderly people with underlying conditions, but also all other people with respiratory diseases (including Asthma, COPD, CF etc.) all those recovering from cancer treatment, people of all ages with cardiovascular and kidney conditions and I stopped here because the list would be too long. There was absolutely no way of knowing the most vulnerable groups at the beginning of the pandemic because it was a brand new virus and, even now, we still do not fully understand how it works. DO NOT SPREAD FAKE NEWS and listen to the experts.

Sweden have chosen to avoid the lockdown and they now have almost 4000 deaths (or 389 every 1 M people) after having done 20,000 tests every 1 M people. Other countries with similar population size like Czechia, which closed down very early in the epidemic, they have 29 deaths every 1 M people) after having done 36,000 tests every 1 M people.

Sweden has taken a gamble and now they are counting corpses.

Statistics on reported Corona-death are not comparable between countries. Countries count deaths in different ways.
Also take account of number of infected. And wait for the second wave. It will happen. You apparantly did not take account of that in your biased statistics.

More than 93 % of dead people in Sweden are older than 70 years. Average age of Corona-deaths: 81 years.
Almost all have at least one underlying disease.

Why then isolating young and healthy people and killing healthy firms?

More clever to let society be open and protect risk groups.

NO.
The Big Gamble is to lock down the whole economy.
Nobody (neither you) knows the consequences of this, since it has never been applied before during any pandemic.
Your main argument is "Everybody else locked down, so it must be the correct strategy".

Did you take account of the health consequences of mass-unemployment?

Please, stop spreading Fake News.
China does this every day to get economic advantages.

Arnold15
05-23-20, 17:33
I'm amazed that people can write about strategies against the Coronavirus without even mentioning the economy!

If the only single goal was to lower the number of deaths caused by see-19 all countries would still be in quarantine!

What Bolsonaro understands is that a lockdown would completely butcher the Brazilian economy! He's afraid of the consequences of a lockdown! He is looking one step further, being smarter, than people screaming in fear because of a virus. I'm extremely disappointed by the other political leaders. It will be rough for us in Nothern Europe, rougher for those in the South and a catastrophe for Brazil. 40 million unemployed in the US, but let's act as if there will be no consequences.

I've been reading comments that without a lockdown everyone will die or half of all people will die. Today we can easily dismiss those claims as scaremongering.

So how many would die? I don't know. No one knows. In Sweden we have 59 deaths among people under 50 years, is that much? I don't think so considering the consequences of a lockdown. This virus is killing the people that pretty much could die from anything.

I would love to blast our government for their incompetence, because they truly are incompetent, but no lockdown was a great and courageous decision to take. It's got nothing to do with nationalism, it was simply the right thing to do in my opinion.

In other countries people have too much of a sunk cost to admit or even entertain the thought that they might have been better off without a lockdown. That in combination with populistic politicians, the media and scared / dumb people lead to the acceptance of a lockdown.

As said, it's not about nationalism.Very well written.

I fully agree with you.

The health and economic consequences of mass unemployment due to lock-down will become several times larger than the health consequences of the Covid19-virus.

Delta Indigo
05-23-20, 17:33
Statistics on reported Corona-death are not comparable between countries. Countries count deaths in different ways.
Also take account of number of infected. And wait for the second wave. It will happen. You apparantly did not take account of that in your biased statistics.

More than 93 % of dead people in Sweden are older than 70 years. Average age of Corona-deaths: 81 years.
Almost all have at least one underlying disease.

Why then isolating young and healthy people and killing healthy firms?

More clever to let society be open and protect risk groups.

NO.
The Big Gamble is to lock down the whole economy.
Nobody (neither you) knows the consequences of this, since it has never been applied before during any pandemic.
Your main argument is "Everybody else locked down, so it must be the correct strategy".

Did you take account of the health consequences of mass-unemployment?

Please, stop spreading Fake News.
China does this every day to get economic advantages.The methodology and accuracy of the count is not exactly the same between any two different countries, however similar countries should be broadly in line. In this case however, Sweden and Czechia, the discrepancy is so damn huge, that it would be all but impossible for Czechia to not have a dramatically lower death toll at current (I am not speaking about herd immunity or the hypothetical second wave).

When the figures are this far apart and the fact that figures from Czechia have far more integrity than Belarus, China or Russia, their death toll and infection rate has been undoubtedly lower. Yes, no 2 countries use the exact same methodology and capture data the same way, however when the discrepancy is so incredibly large the conclusion is beyond dispute.

Beijing4987
05-23-20, 18:00
Let the asympomatic roam free and live off their recent ancestors nest egg. Since they have an insufficient education in most countries it's only a matter of time before they exhaust their funds at the discos and realize it's time to hunt down the rich. One person in South Korea was traced back from 215 infections spread over 5 bars. The crumbs led back to Grandma's house where the big bad Wolf 🐺 devoured her. Betsy Devos will make sure the for profit colleges get their dough for the insufficient education provided to Hansel and Gretel. It was a gruesome story when written and later sanitized to mask the ugly truth. Thank Steven Munchkin and Kamala Harris for all those home foreclosures in California, suckers. Just call me argumentative.

The Cane
05-23-20, 18:22
Thank Steven Munchkin and Kamala Harris for all those home foreclosures in California, suckers.Yes, let us blame Steve Munchkin! There the little culprit is in the middle with a couple of his cronies!

Rocky V
05-23-20, 20:06
Statistics on reported Corona-death are not comparable between countries. Countries count deaths in different ways.
Also take account of number of infected. And wait for the second wave. It will happen. You apparantly did not take account of that in your biased statistics.

More than 93 % of dead people in Sweden are older than 70 years. Average age of Corona-deaths: 81 years.
Almost all have at least one underlying disease.

Why then isolating young and healthy people and killing healthy firms?

More clever to let society be open and protect risk groups.

NO..I have never said to isolate the young and healthy, but I was correcting you in just having the elderly with underlying conditions as the vulnerable group.

Cases in Sweden are likely underestimated as their test rates are still very low.

Sweden economy will suffer as much as the rest of Europe, according to some analysts in FT: https://www.ft.com/content/93105160-dcb4-4721-9e58-a7b262cd4b6e and this makes me wonder, why pay a high death toll then.

Finally, I want to make one thing very clear here as I may have come across a bit harsh earlier: I absolutely love Sweden, the Swedish people and food but I think they could have done more in this case to save lives. That's all.

Rock.

Sirioja
05-23-20, 22:37
Statistics on REPORTED Corona-deaths in Sweden comapring with other countries is WORTHLESS.

It simply depends on that different countries identify real reasons to deaths in different ways.
Here, Belgium and Sweden are top countries since they identify the death reason - other countries (like France) do not.

The only way to calculate Corona-death are as follows:
Number of dead in April 2020 divided by average number of dead in April 2015-19.

Then you get how many percent died more than normal.
And this figure in Sweden is not higher 2020 than 1993, when there was a severe influence.
Comapring period February - May in Sweden 2020 with 2018, then only 1700 more dead people in 2020!
Almost all of them multi-dicesease and average age of 81!.I didn't read here people die in Stockholm streets, but I wrote Stockholm is worst deaths rate with more than 1000 deaths, competing with NYC where we could see fridge trucks in streets, full of dead, and also Hart island. We will see for second wave, if it happens, let's try just to be able to control first one.

McAdonis
05-24-20, 15:43
Anyway, politicians like Macron chose to isolate young and healthy people and slaughter the whole society, because "other countries did the same" or "China told us to lock-down".
"If all others do the same, then this strategy must be the correct one".
But here, China has a Hidden Agenda. China wants US and Europe to lock down, in order to get an economic lead.

Many European and US firms - as in the automobile sector - will soon wake up and find themselves in a real bad position.China was the first to sacrifice their economy by implementing national lockdown. They had no way of predicting with 100 percent certainty if any other country would follow suit. The only thing that they could have maybe predicted was that countries with a one-party-system would be more efficient at containing the crisis and getting compliance from the populace.

The fundamental problem is almost every country underestimated the threat. Vietnam is the notable exception. I believe their national lockdown only lasted between two and three weeks. On paper, Vietnam should have been one of the worse-hit battlefields for the war against the coronavirus. Brazil, USA, Europe, and Russia all have significantly more financial resources. And being farther from the Wuhan epicenter, all these countries had significantly more time to prepare for the virus. With the exception of masks and the strict controls of the borders, daily life in Vietnam is already back to normal, even in Saigon which has two of the most population dense districts in the world.

So here is the sad lesson: if all of the Western countries had (1) taken action early, and (2) implemented a super-strict lockdown where 97 percent of population did not leave the house, not only would fewer lives have been lost but the economy would have only needed to be closed for 2-3 weeks. As I mentioned before, many Western European countries practically close their economy the entire month of August as is. And countries like France, with the amount of protesting they do, even more.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_city_districts_by_population_density

Sirioja
05-24-20, 22:41
China was the first to sacrifice their economy by implementing national lockdown. They had no way of predicting with 100 percent certainty if any other country would follow suit. The only thing that they could have maybe predicted was that countries with a one-party-system would be more efficient at containing the crisis and getting compliance from the populace.

The fundamental problem is almost every country underestimated the threat. Vietnam is the notable exception. I believe their national lockdown only lasted between two and three weeks. On paper, Vietnam should have been one of the worse-hit battlefields for the war against the coronavirus. Brazil, USA, Europe, and Russia all have significantly more financial resources. And being farther from the Wuhan epicenter, all these countries had significantly more time to prepare for the virus. With the exception of masks and the strict controls of the borders, daily life in Vietnam is already back to normal, even in Saigon which has two of the most population dense districts in the world.

So here is the sad lesson: if all of the Western countries had (1) taken action early, and (2) implemented a super-strict lockdown where 97 percent of population did not leave the house, not only would fewer lives have been lost but the economy would have only needed to be closed for 2-3 weeks. As I mentioned before, many Western European countries practically close their economy the entire month of August as is. And countries like France, with the amount of protesting they do, even more.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_city_districts_by_population_densityFrance don't stop economy on August, just slowlier, because sun and 3 beautiful seas in France, making most visited country and Paris for most visited city even no sea. I won't say Macron is a good president because he is not good enough for arithmetic, but he is not crazy like Trump and tried at least to save life without eating chloroquine bonbons, confined saved more than 60 000 life, double than our deaths. Multi cultural with different religions French are very different from Germany or Sweden, but except in some difficult places, French respected quite well confined, even they thought about holidays at the beginning. If we understand we need to protect our health and safety, we have level of quality in France to go on, even I don't think putting more tax on rich will help economy to restart.

Arnold15
05-25-20, 10:05
China was the first to sacrifice their economy by implementing national lockdown. They had no way of predicting with 100 percent certainty if any other country would follow suit. The only thing that they could have maybe predicted was that countries with a one-party-system would be more efficient at containing the crisis and getting compliance from the populace.

The fundamental problem is almost every country underestimated the threat. Vietnam is the notable exception. I believe their national lockdown only lasted between two and three weeks. On paper, Vietnam should have been one of the worse-hit battlefields for the war against the coronavirus. Brazil, USA, Europe, and Russia all have significantly more financial resources. And being farther from the Wuhan epicenter, all these countries had significantly more time to prepare for the virus. With the exception of masks and the strict controls of the borders, daily life in Vietnam is already back to normal, even in Saigon which has two of the most population dense districts in the world.

So here is the sad lesson: if all of the Western countries had (1) taken action early, and (2) implemented a super-strict lockdown where 97 percent of population did not leave the house, not only would fewer lives have been lost but the economy would have only needed to be closed for 2-3 weeks. As I mentioned before, many Western European countries practically close their economy the entire month of August as is. And countries like France, with the amount of protesting they do, even more.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_city_districts_by_population_densityYou suggest that all countries should lock-down the whole economy 2-3 weeks. And then everything is OK. Virus is eliminated in the whole world.

No. It would not work.
It is a new virus and there is no vaccine.

Covid-19 would come in wave after wave (compare with Spanish disease, HongKong and Asian influence).
And then all countries need to lock-down 2-3 weeks every time. Maybe every 4th or 6th month?

Countries overestimated the danger of the virus.
Most people who have died by Covid-19 would die anyway within 1-2 years.
(compare: 200 000 - 1 000 000 people die every year by the annual influence)
Of course, there are exceptions, where also young people have died by covid-19, but they are in a clear minority.

The fundamental problem is that almost all countries have underestimated the economic damages AND long-term health damages of total lock-down.
Such total lock-downs have never been practised before.

Mass-unemployment and mass-bankrupsies will also kill people. Many small-firm owners will be ruined.
Huge increases in suicides, alcoholists, drug addicts.
Worse mental and physical health causing other diseases.
And above all, increased criminality (as a result of mass-unemployment) will be the consequences of these lock-downs.
And now we are talking of young people who are affected.

So the lesson to learn is as follows:
1) Let 90 % of the society work as usual.
2) Put all resources on protecting the risk groups. (Not in the Swedish incompetent way!)

Wild Man
05-25-20, 11:28
As they say never waste a crisis.

Some Prominent German Politicians are using the current Covid 19 disaster to contact federal state leaders to bring in the Nordick Model!

Quelle Surprise!

https://www.dw.com/en/german-lawmakers-call-for-buying-sex-to-be-made-permanently-illegal/a-53504221

This is particularly disgusting given that this disease has already horribly impacted on sex workers!

McAdonis
05-25-20, 12:49
The fundamental problem is that almost all countries have underestimated the economic damages AND long-term health damages of total lock-down.

Mass-unemployment and mass-bankrupsies will also kill people. Many small-firm owners will be ruined.
Huge increases in suicides, alcoholists, drug addicts.
Worse mental and physical health causing other diseases.
And above all, increased criminality (as a result of mass-unemployment) will be the consequences of these lock-downs.
And now we are talking of young people who are affected.Global lockdown, especially if it were to last longer than six months, results in significant economic damages. One does not need a degree in economics to understand this. The world has seen world wars that more or less approximate a global economic lockdown. What the world has never seen is a virus that doubles infection rates every three days, at least not since global air travel became so accessible and cheap.

I believe the damages you listed above are unavoidable, even if the lockdowns had not occurred, because even before the pandemic we were in the early stages of an automation revolution. The idea that everyone needs to be back at work for the economy to be healthy may prove to be an outdated idea by 2040. Working remotely and working fewer hours will soon be the norm, so this pandemic is just a practice test for the future. Do not get me wrong, it hurts and it is horrible, I am suffering a bit financially, but it was going to happen sooner or later. In 1837, the average work week in USA and Europe was between 69 to 94 hours. Now it is between 30 to 40 hours. In the future, it could be between 5 to 10 hours. At least in the initial years of this technological revolution, there will be civil unrest and perhaps violent extremism. There will be a mental health crisis as people face the frustration and rejection of being fired. With all the newfound free time, people will struggle with feelings of "uselessness". People will need to find new hobbies to stay sane or drown their sorrows. Perhaps we will see more people turning to prostitution for comfort. Nevertheless, all those automation projects that companies had planned for the future are being executed on now. Some companies are actually happy they were able to layoff workers during this pandemic. They see it as an opportunity to double down their investment on automation, which allows them to be more efficient and cost-effective.

https://www.seattletimes.com/business/robots-welcome-to-take-over-as-coronavirus-pandemic-accelerates-automation/

https://web.archive.org/web/20140502004731/http://www.lorraine.direccte.gouv.fr/evolution-de-la-duree-du-travail-en-france-et-dans-le-monde

https://thebulletin.brandtschool.de/why-covid-19-will-increase-automation-anxiety/


You suggest that all countries should lock-down the whole economy 2-3 weeks. And then everything is OK. Virus is eliminated in the whole world.

No. It would not work.
It is a new virus and there is no vaccine.

Covid-19 would come in wave after wave (compare with Spanish disease, HongKong and Asian influence).
And then all countries need to lock-down 2-3 weeks every time. Maybe every 4th or 6th month?
I will acknowledge it is not realistic, because every country would need to agree on a 2-3 week lockdown period. And not every country would be willing or capable of imposing a strict lockdown. But Vietnam has almost been able to eradicate the virus without a long lockdown period. Unlike China nobody distrusts their numbers. The problem is Vietnam is a small economy, so unfortunately they will have to reopen their borders to countries who weren't as diligent with containment.


"If it were possible to wave a magic wand and make all Americans freeze in place for 14 days while sitting six feet apart, epidemiologists say, the whole epidemic would sputter to a halt. The virus would die out on every contaminated surface and, because almost everyone shows symptoms within two weeks, it would be evident who was infected. If we had enough tests for every American, even the completely asymptomatic cases could be found and isolated. The crisis would be over. Obviously, there is no magic wand, and no 300 million tests. But the goal of lockdowns and social distancing is to approximate such a total freeze."

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/22/health/coronavirus-restrictions-us.html.

Mursenary
05-25-20, 13:38
You suggest that all countries should lock-down the whole economy 2-3 weeks. And then everything is OK. Virus is eliminated in the whole world.

No. It would not work.
It is a new virus and there is no vaccine.

Covid-19 would come in wave after wave (compare with Spanish disease, HongKong and Asian influence).
And then all countries need to lock-down 2-3 weeks every time. Maybe every 4th or 6th month?

Countries overestimated the danger of the virus.
Most people who have died by Covid-19 would die anyway within 1-2 years.
(compare: 200 000 - 1 000 000 people die every year by the annual influence)
Of course, there are exceptions, where also young people have died by covid-19, but they are in a clear minority.
I mostly agree with you that a more precise approach could have been made without a near complete shut down of society, but how could that have been done? Yes, this disease is extremely hard on the old but from just eyeballing the patients I've treated in my intensive care units, at least half of the patients were between 45 and 65. Also, looking only at fatalities may not be the most prudent approach. While many of the younger will not die, for those who survive, being hospitalized for over a month or more is nothing to scoff off. We can isolate the old, but are we going to add the middle aged and obese to that isolation group also? Because after age, obesity is really the most fatal comorbidity out there.

Also, previous post that claimed that China intentionally released the virus to get ahead economically seems pretty ill founded and pretty Trumpish in it's hate mongering tone. I mean, speculation is one thing, but assertion in such a pre-convinced tone is a rather "internet" of you.

Pessimist
05-25-20, 15:31
China was the first to sacrifice their economy by implementing national lockdown. They had no way of predicting with 100 percent certainty if any other country would follow suit. The only thing that they could have maybe predicted was that countries with a one-party-system would be more efficient at containing the crisis and getting compliance from the populace.

The fundamental problem is almost every country underestimated the threat. Vietnam is the notable exception. I believe their national lockdown only lasted between two and three weeks. On paper, Vietnam should have been one of the worse-hit battlefields for the war against the coronavirus. Brazil, USA, Europe, and Russia all have significantly more financial resources. And being farther from the Wuhan epicenter, all these countries had significantly more time to prepare for the virus. With the exception of masks and the strict controls of the borders, daily life in Vietnam is already back to normal, even in Saigon which has two of the most population dense districts in the world.

So here is the sad lesson: if all of the Western countries had (1) taken action early, and (2) implemented a super-strict lockdown where 97 percent of population did not leave the house, not only would fewer lives have been lost but the economy would have only needed to be closed for 2-3 weeks. As I mentioned before, many Western European countries practically close their economy the entire month of August as is. And countries like France, with the amount of protesting they do, even more.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_city_districts_by_population_densityOur Secretary of State Pompeo suggested this virus came out of a Wuhan lab. It is possible that they grew the virus, unleashed it on their own population to give appearance of innocence and randomness, and contained it very efficiently and methodically and carefully leaked it to other countries, particularly the key geopolitical rivals. US has clearly been more impacted by this virus than China has been, and most of Europe has been crippled as well. If they wanted to narrow the economic gap between them to the West, this was an ingenious way to do it.

Yeah, Vietnam managed it well and so did Korea, Taiwan, etc. Those nations had past experiences with such viruses, their governments were more alert, their people love their masks, and they shut down in time. Their culture is such that they obediently follow government instructions. Out in the west, we are individualistic, love our freedoms, hate masks, and we had never seen such a pandemic in our lifetimes. I would not chalk this up as if these Asian nations are somehow superior in anyway.

ExpatLover
05-25-20, 20:39
But this is exactly the problem since the end of the soviet union, capitalism is leading the world in a terrible way, our leaders are just incapable to protect us even against a basic virus. The guys who are pushing for more capitalism are the first to ask financial support from the different government which is exactly the opposite of their own values. Most of the rich are stupid and their children even more or they will not spend their time to buy useless and stupid things, like LV, Porsche, BMW. Prada, Channel, Lancome 100,200, 300 years back the rich people were the most educated, today I don t believe it is still the case. They don t want to have educated people they just want to have customers who follow their commands (they control most of the news) don t think but buy and even better with credit.

Delta Indigo
05-26-20, 15:02
Our Secretary of State Pompeo suggested this virus came out of a Wuhan lab. It is possible that they grew the virus, unleashed it on their own population to give appearance of innocence and randomness, and contained it very efficiently and methodically and carefully leaked it to other countries, particularly the key geopolitical rivals. US has clearly been more impacted by this virus than China has been, and most of Europe has been crippled as well. If they wanted to narrow the economic gap between them to the West, this was an ingenious way to do it.

Yeah, Vietnam managed it well and so did Korea, Taiwan, etc. Those nations had past experiences with such viruses, their governments were more alert, their people love their masks, and they shut down in time. Their culture is such that they obediently follow government instructions. Out in the west, we are individualistic, love our freedoms, hate masks, and we had never seen such a pandemic in our lifetimes. I would not chalk this up as if these Asian nations are somehow superior in anyway.I think this stretches credibility to its max and is an illustration of how far fetched conspiracy theories can be on both ends of the political spectrum. I am no fan of China, but is easy to see how they could have contained this. China is first of all far more organized and effective an authoritarian (totalitarian is probably more apt) than other aspiring dictatorial regimes like Russia. China's levers of control over society are also far greater than Russia's, things like their social credit system and the zillions of cameras they have surveying the population and the facial recognition AI they use to identify people in no time in an immense crowd.

1. In the West, we have far greater civil liberties and can not make use of such tools, but the Chinese could, no government in Europe could have imposed a lock down on this scale and with such brutality. I think the Czechs have had one of the most effective ones in Europe, but it pales in comparison.

2. China is far more organized than even other authoritarian (totalitarian) regimes, ie Russia, and other mildly authoritarian regimes that do not respect human rights as much, ie India. Russia's state control apparatus is not capable of doing what the Chinese could and have done, the virus will spread far more widely in Russia, even though it is far more sparsely populated. Imagine India, I am using India as an example to illustrate the point and make it obvious. Does anyone doubt that the Chinese would be a 100 xs more effective in containing this outbreak than India, I didn't think so?

All that I am willing to believe is that they inadvertently let this loose from a lab by accident, that they would release it and risk such economic and political damage (to their leadership) is quite far fetched. Their economy is doing worse this year than at any point in the past 4 decades or so.

About this being a trick to undermine the western economies, this is truly one of the most far fetched, I would use another adjective, theory I have heard. China is heavily dependent on exports and not domestic consumption, in facts its economy is skewed heavily towards investment and less consumption. Therefore if a lot of its trading partners in the west are in economic despair, China will also suffer enormously and that will have political repercussions at home. China actually needs the west more than the west probably needs it, much more of its GDP depends on trade, and its needs an economically healthy west.

Notable politicians in the US are trying to use China as an excuse to hide their own inaction in the early phases of this pandemic, they are on record numerous times dismissing the threat of this pandemic and telling everyone to calm down. The same person blaming China now does not hold much water. Of course China is not open and forthright about a lot of things and of course they try to put a shiny gloss on things and hide their errors, but willfully inflicting such damage on themselves and their main trading partners would have been highly questionable to say the least.

This is from a web site that is usually a fan of the right, but still balanced in many ways.

https://nationalinterest.org/blog/skeptics/dont-listen-%E2%80%98china-covered-coronavirus%E2%80%99-narrative-157241

This virus is different and has the right mix of lethality and contagiousness to spread so effectively, other viruses have not succeeded as well.

Pessimist
05-26-20, 15:55
I think this stretches credibility to its max and is an illustration of how far fetched conspiracy theories can be on both ends of the political spectrum. I am no fan of China, but is easy to see how they could have contained this. China is first of all far more organized and effective an authoritarian (totalitarian is probably more apt) than other aspiring dictatorial regimes like Russia. China's levers of control over society are also far greater than Russia's, things like their social credit system and the zillions of cameras they have surveying the population and the facial recognition AI they use to identify people in no time in an immense crowd.

1. In the West, we have far greater civil liberties and can not make use of such tools, but the Chinese could, no government in Europe could have imposed a lock down on this scale and with such brutality. I think the Czechs have had one of the most effective ones in Europe, but it pales in comparison.

2. China is far more organized than even other authoritarian (totalitarian) regimes, ie Russia, and other mildly authoritarian regimes that do not respect human rights as much, ie India. Russia's state control apparatus is not capable of doing what the Chinese could and have done, the virus will spread far more widely in Russia, even though it is far more sparsely populated. Imagine India, I am using India as an example to illustrate the point and make it obvious. Does anyone doubt that the Chinese would be a 100 xs more effective in containing this outbreak than India, I didn't think so?.Well, no doubt it is a conspiracy theory and no, it is not my personally created concoction. As for how likely it is, who knows?! The suspicion that it did not jump from a bat or some other wild animal to humans by accident is taking hold, especially in GOP circles in US. As I said and as many of us know, Pompeo has openly suggested it was created in a Wuhan lab and China has officially condemned that suggestion. And BTW, Pompeo is probably the closest confidant of Trump in his cabinet and Trump fully subscribes to Pompeo views and feels the same way. However, China has done precious little to truly dispel any such theory because they simply refuse any objective, 3rd party investigation and one of the first things epidemiologists and virologists do in these situations is to track it down to Patient#1, which has been impossible with this virus. I was watching Contagion the other day and pretty much all of the movie played out identically in reality except that Patient#1 is not a stunning blonde Paltrow, and even worse we have no clue who that patient is.

If it was not accidental but somewhat man made, or man played a part in either the creation or dispersion of this virus, then it begs a second question -- how did it jump out of lab to humans? Was it intentional or accidental?? If it was intentional, what was the intent? Any intent to create it in the first place and "allowing it to leak out of the lab" can hardly be categorized as benign or even innocent. Yes, Trump and Pompeo have stopped at suggesting that the virus originated in Wuhan lab and did not (yet) take the next step and suggest that it was done by the Chinese government with a malicious intent. They may or may not take that next step, but it is being actively debated in GOP's underbelly circles.

BTW, I think you agree that China contained this very effectively (whether they truly had 80,000 infections and 4,500 dead or if those #s are ten times higher), and I had already said the same. The only point you dispute is that whether it was a runaway virus and they contained it; or if they leaked it, allowed it to proliferate and then contained it. That again brings us back to the intent, which I don't think anyone here is in a position to refute with authority, for the simple fact that I don't think anyone posting here is clued into Chinese politburo.

As for the relative economic impact, we can debate it all day long. China has the reputation of playing a long term game. Even the above conspiracy theory acknowledges that China knew aforehand that their own economy will get impacted adversely but they were prepared for it as a necessary price to pay to inflict a greater damage on their key rivals, and so far that calculation (if it was the true intent) has played to plan.

McAdonis
05-26-20, 20:29
Our Secretary of State Pompeo suggested this virus came out of a Wuhan lab. It is possible that they grew the virus, unleashed it on their own population to give appearance of innocence and randomness, and contained it very efficiently and methodically and carefully leaked it to other countries, particularly the key geopolitical rivals. US has clearly been more impacted by this virus than China has been, and most of Europe has been crippled as well. If they wanted to narrow the economic gap between them to the West, this was an ingenious way to do it.Right now the Chinese economy is still number two by a far margin, and highly dependent on the Western economies. If this is the year 2030, the BRI is complete, and China has shifted some of that dependency to a rising Africa, then perhaps a "deliberate spread" theory might make more sense. But in 2020, this deliberate spread theory represents a "nuclear option" that would hurt China just as much as the Western economies. If China was hell-bent on self-destruction and going full kamikaze to inflict economic harm on USA, it could sell its US treasury bonds. But they haven't. Even though tensions with Washington DC have increased, Beijing likes those low risk, high yields much more. This is no different than pay sex world. I have seen "tensions" rise in the FKK clubs: (1) WG gets short-changed at money locker, (2) monger gets overcharged at money locker, (3) monger cuts in line in front of another monger. Tempers flare, shouting ensues in Romanian, English, German, but just prior to the point of escalation, all parties cool down. Nobody wants to get banned from the club!

Although China is trying to transition away, it is still the "world's manufacturing plant":


We should not forget that China, the worlds largest exporter, needs the rest of the world for its own economic recovery.

There are at least two reasons China depends on the global economy for its own recovery: Chinas large amount of exports to other countries and the continuity of its Belt and Road Initiative (BRI) Chinas massive infrastructure projects, many of which are located in countries affected by COVID-19.

To ensure its economic recovery, China should assist countries involved in (BRI) initiative and improve its relationship with its biggest export destination, the United States.

https://theconversation.com/chinas-economic-recovery-depends-on-the-rest-of-the-world-135319
Deploying a disease as communicable as CV19 introduces political, social, and economic chaos, something which the CCP does not like. The idea of a weapon is that it hits your intended target, not causes collateral damage that could come back to harm you. In other words, you want a gun that can aim. Not a gun that will spray in unpredictable directions including your own. CCP had no way of predicting that other countries would lock down or their ability to contain the virus. Because China silenced the Wuhan doctors in early stages of outbreak, Chinese millennials, who were mostly politically apathetic before, have now had a political awakening and have started to criticise the regime. That is a huge threat to the future stability and existence of the CCP.

At any point in time, there are thousands of Chinese scientists living in the USA. Not that uncommon for a Chinese scientist to work in the West for several decades, then get lured back to China with insane amounts of money and lofty job titles. One of the ones that returned to China in 2019 was a 59-year old cancer researcher, who just developed a CV19 test back in Chinese labs. Would China willingly harm some of its best and brightest by unleashing a virus on them? https://www.propublica.org/article/the-trump-administration-drove-him-back-to-china-where-he-invented-a-fast-coronavirus-test.

Pessimist
05-27-20, 01:45
Right now the Chinese economy is still number two by a far margin, and highly dependent on the Western economies. If this is the year 2030, the BRI is complete, and China has shifted some of that dependency to a rising Africa, then perhaps a "deliberate spread" theory might make more sense. But in 2020, this deliberate spread theory represents a "nuclear option" that would hurt China just as much as the Western economies. If China was hell-bent on self-destruction and going full kamikaze to inflict economic harm on USA, it could sell its US treasury bonds. But they haven't. Even though tensions with Washington DC have increased, Beijing likes those low risk, high yields much more. This is no different than pay sex world. I have seen "tensions" rise in the FKK clubs: (1) WG gets short-changed at money locker, (2) monger gets overcharged at money locker, (3) monger cuts in line in front of another monger. Tempers flare, shouting ensues in Romanian, English, German, but just prior to the point of escalation, all parties cool down. Nobody wants to get banned from the club!

Although China is trying to transition away, it is still the "world's manufacturing plant":.There have been suggestions in right wing media that Trump should just abrogate the bonds held by China as a reparation for the harm inflicted on US. Trump has played that down for now given the current market conditions and the stress such an action would cause in the market. If he will entertain that idea more seriously in the future is tough to know.

BTW, it is not as if China has a trillion dollars sitting in the bank free and clear because that amount has matching liabilities, and reducing its dollar reserves will most certainly put even more stress on CNY which has already lost 4% vs dollar since mid Jan and 12% in roughly 2 years. At a time when its exports are likely to be weak, cutting dollar reserves will not do any favors to itself and yes a weak RMB would normally help with regards to exports except right now every other economy is weak and hence there are many places and things China could export to, and right now most western nations which are the primary export markets for China are super upset with China after the role China played in this virus proliferation, and it is a folly for China to think it can export its way out of trouble. So, no, I reject this theory that China is being judicious and responsible because it did not *trim down dollar reserves. China held its dollar reserves because it had no other choice. Plus, there is no other asset or currency it can replace at that amount, Euro depreciates even faster and there is at least some risk Euro could simply break up if this German court ruling against ECB holds and Italy and southern Europeans decide they had enough and try Italexit or Spainixit. Yen is safe enough but not large enough market to buy a trillion dollars worth in a jiffy. No, China has not much recourse on this.

And with all due respect saying something like "CV19 introduces political, social, and economic chaos, something which the CCP does not like" is naive and presumptuous because you and I both have no clue what they like and don't know what they are prepared to do and not prepared to do. China has been increasingly belligerent, nationalism has been stoked up at home to a fever pitch, Xi Jinping wants a third term and he is not getting it done on the home front on the economy side, and there is no telling what risks he is prepared to take. He sent a whole bunch of people to prison and death cells as part of his anti corruption drive and made a lot of enemies. He cannot hope for a quiet retirement as Jiang Zemin or Hu Jintao achieved. It is either dictator for life or bust. He is probably prepared for risks which normal Chinese leaders might not take.

The simple fact is that they did not allow any 3rd party investigation of this virus origin and we still don't know (a) if it was organic or man made (b) if it was spread globally despite their prevention efforts or if they carefully and surreptitiously leaked it. Only a true investigation can establish the facts, and there is only one party which is blocking the investigation and it is fair to question their motives.

Pessimist
05-27-20, 04:32
As China asserts itself globally, its diplomats around the world are taking on foes big and small.

The brash new attitude, playing out on social media, in newsprint and across negotiating tables, marks a turn for China's once low-key diplomats. It's part of a deliberate shift within the Foreign Ministry, spurred on by Chinese leaders seeking to claim what they see as their nation's rightful place in the world, in the face of an increasingly inward-looking USA.

China's state media describe it as a "Wolf Warrior" ethos—named for a nationalistic Chinese film franchise about a Rambo-like soldier-turned-security contractor who battles American-led mercenary groups.

In Venezuela, a major recipient of Beijing's aid, the Chinese embassy lashed out at local legislators who described the pathogen that causes Covid-19 as the "China coronavirus. " Those legislators, the embassy said in a March statement on its website, were suffering from a "political virus."

"Since you are already very sick from this, hurry up to ask for proper treatment," the statement said. "The first step might be to wear the masks and shut up."

Read the rest of the article below. There have been many such articles in media. I understand China also attacked India recently from another WSJ article (or perhaps FT). Xi Jinping is feeling that he needs to deliver and his lieutenants are stepping up attacks. Obviously, there is the huge hostility to Australia now. The question is, what is China hiding and why is there such alarm on their part to any objective investigation if they are innocent?

https://www.wsj.com/articles/chinas-wolf-warrior-diplomats-are-ready-to-fight-11589896722?mod=searchresults&page=1&pos=1

Sirioja
05-27-20, 08:41
I think this stretches credibility to its max and is an illustration of how far fetched conspiracy theories can be on both ends of the political spectrum. I am no fan of China, but is easy to see how they could have contained this. China is first of all far more organized and effective an authoritarian (totalitarian is probably more apt) than other aspiring dictatorial regimes like Russia. China's levers of control over society are also far greater than Russia's, things like their social credit system and the zillions of cameras they have surveying the population and the facial recognition AI they use to identify people in no time in an immense crowd.

1. In the West, we have far greater civil liberties and can not make use of such tools, but the Chinese could, no government in Europe could have imposed a lock down on this scale and with such brutality. I think the Czechs have had one of the most effective ones in Europe, but it pales in comparison.Do you know real figures for deaths in Wuhan and whole huge China? Do you think only 1 person can know the truth? I think nobody knows. In Western Europe, we just know they lied for figures and Chinese people confirmed even they are afraid of their government, and about when it started, not on international market on December as the whole world thought at this time because not many deaths at this time, but before October. But as I m not paranoiac like US, I think it was just accident through safety and not a virus weapon, and at least US know more about Trump taking chloroquine bonbons, telling confined is useless, let s go to the beach and play golf, 100 000 deaths talk and they will get much more, from more than 30 millions unemployed, Texas falling down under, and more than 10 millions illegals, much more than 50 millions with no health insurance who can t afford healthcare, Obama please run back, for sure I would prefer him, rather than a crazy ready for anything, when his model, from ex communist wife seems more clever. When San Francisco is a beautiful town for me, but NYC is just a magic town, when Vegas didn't impressed me much because so fake when I walked the whole strip and back from Circus and even to downtown where I found a WG I could see, when I was given papers for escorts on the strip, but I can t forget fridge trucks and not only one in streets and Hart Island putting people they didn't know about all together. About CIA, I remember when I was a child, hearing about watergate and Nixon who had to leave, about lies and paranoia under cold war, they can compete with communist China for lies. Both are dangerous for me, and Western Europe have to protect for a better safety, for more independent, when we are a 300 millions people market and we have the highest standards for quality and way of life. France is number 1, Spain number 3 and Italy should be 4 or 5, for tourism for attractive countries, Paris being number 1 for towns, before NYC, LA, Rio or Tokyo which are much bigger.

BigBuddy69
05-27-20, 09:49
The only accurate way to compare countries is to count "excess deaths".
How many died this year compared to previous years.You're partly right so I suggest you take a look at those figures:

https://euromomo.eu/graphs-and-maps#excess-mortality

You go all the way down the webpage, you select Denmark, Norway, Finland and Sweden and for the week range you select all the weeks from 2020. It looks like Sweden is not doing so well compared to other northern countries.

You can also use this source:

https://ourworldindata.org/coronavirus-data-explorer?zoomToSelection=true&time=2020-03-19..&deathsMetric=true&dailyFreq=true&perCapita=true&smoothing=7&country=BEL~SWE~NOR~FIN~DNK

Guess who is now way above Belgium which counts every unexplained death as related to coronavirus?

Delta Indigo
05-27-20, 13:48
There have been suggestions in right wing media that Trump should just abrogate the bonds held by China as a reparation for the harm inflicted on US. Trump has played that down for now given the current market conditions and the stress such an action would cause in the market. If he will entertain that idea more seriously in the future is tough to know.
Knowing what is in the Politburo's head as you state is impossible but we do have a reasonable idea of the rational calculus that would be in their interest. With this rational calculus this would be quite a risky move. I have only quoted a small part of your previous report because the main source of these theories are actually politically motivated.

First of all there is a certain prominent right wing politician who is fearing for his re-election and is trying to cover up his initial missteps. He is on record saying numerous times that this would be a minor thing and is totally under control, now he is looking for a scapegoat to deflect attention away from these missteps. And accuracy and factual arguments are not his strong point to say the least. Furthermore a demographic that he relies on disproportionately, ie older voters, are not happy with this record as regarding the pandemic.

A lot of these theories have come out of this political discourse, not everyone who believes it has this motive, but it is spread by many people who have questionable motives, which in my view makes them more suspect. Trump has gotten rid of many non sycophantic cabinet members and many of those that survive do so by being totally subservient and sycophantic. In my opinion Pompeo fits this description, he is one of the biggest sycophants around and will always support his bosses' wild theories. For some reason Mike Pence avoids getting trapped into supporting these theories, he manages to avoid the worst of the spot light some how. I do not think it is Trump listening to Pompeo, rather the reverse.

Anyhow, that is really all I have to say on this matter. Also the Chinese could not be sure that they would be able to contain this had they released it deliberately, in fact it still remains a danger to them, albeit on a far reduced scale.

Pessimist
05-27-20, 13:51
The news doesn't spell out if travel from those 26 countries into Germany also will be allowed. The statement from Bavarian premier seems to indicate otherwise.

In any case, there is no indication that they will open travel to people from outside EU. Such as US, for example.

And if and when they do, will they quarantine for x days? Any quarantine is a total no no for a sex tourist coming to DE for a week of sex.

And of course, none of this says when the sex clubs will actually be open.

Continue to think the likelihood of large FKKs opening up as they operated pre Covid is very small. My bet was that there is less than 5% chance by Sept, less than 25% chances by December.

——————————————.

A government source said the cabinet may also decide to lift a warning against travel to 26 fellow EU countries plus Britain, Iceland, Norway, Switzerland and Liechtenstein from June 15, opening the way to separate advice for specific regions.

Markus Soeder, premier of Bavaria, the hardest-hit state, voiced opposition to moving too fast in reopening tourism.

"We have in Italy, Spain and France completely different infection numbers compared to Germany so I ask the federal government to think very carefully about this," he said.

"Nobody should be fooled. Corona remains deadly," Soeder said, describing Thuringia state's shift towards adopting voluntary, localised measures as a "fatal signal".

In a nod to Bavaria's objections, the cabinet might postpone its decision by a week, but still lift the blanket travel warning from mid-June, media group RND reported.

The Cane
05-27-20, 14:02
Anyhow, that is really all I have to say on this matter. Also the Chinese could not be sure that they would be able to contain this had they released it deliberately, in fact it still remains a danger to them, albeit on a far reduced scale.That China would have intentionally released a deadly virus upon the world is one of the silliest conspiracy theories I have ever heard. With world commerce being so interlinked, and China having the second largest economy in the world, that would be like shooting themselves in the head. No way they acted intentionally in that way, but they did try to cover it up, and then were slow to tell the world what was happening. We may never know the full truth.

Pessimist
05-27-20, 14:02
Knowing what is in the Politburo's head as you state is impossible but we do have a reasonable idea of the rational calculus that would be in their interest. With this rational calculus this would be quite a risky move. I have only quoted a small part of your previous report because the main source of these theories are actually politically motivated.

First of all there is a certain prominent right wing politician who is fearing for his re-election and is trying to cover up his initial missteps. He is on record saying numerous times that this would be a minor thing and is totally under control, now he is looking for a scapegoat to deflect attention away from these missteps. And accuracy and factual arguments are not his strong point to say the least. Furthermore a demographic that he relies on disproportionately, ie older voters, are not happy with this record as regarding the pandemic..In February when Gino was continually advocating that clubs should selectively deny admission to Asian looking people, I questioned his motive. I said "if any admission denial is to be implemented, it should be done at the borders. It is discriminatory to be denying admission to people based solely on their ethnicity look at the club doors".

At that time, almost no one came to defend my stance. A few took Gino's side. There were multiple messages in those threads, can be easily verified by clicking on my history.

So, I am pretty sure I can be spared all these spurious charges in my direction.

I appreciate the political discourse and insightful lessons from you Delta. The point still remains (a) the origin of the virus is not established because China is blocking any investigation (b) consequently we also have zero clarity on how it spread and how much of the spread and leak was intentional and unintentional (c) yes, many countries are adversely impacted w. R. T. Their economies, including China BUT some are impacted much worse than others, and so far the trends are that China is less impacted than its key geopolitical rivals. If you have proof to refute these points, please do present them. Whether China foresaw how the impact would work out and was prepared to sacrifice a few pawns to capture the Queen of its opponent, that I do not know but there is no proof to say such a thing didn't happen. I will let you put probabilities.

Delta Indigo
05-27-20, 17:39
In February when Gino was continually advocating that clubs should selectively deny admission to Asian looking people, I questioned his motive. I said "if any admission denial is to be implemented, it should be done at the borders. It is discriminatory to be denying admission to people based solely on their ethnicity look at the club doors".

At that time, almost no one came to defend my stance. A few took Gino's side. There were multiple messages in those threads, can be easily verified by clicking on my history.

So, I am pretty sure I can be spared all these spurious charges in my direction.

I appreciate the political discourse and insightful lessons from you Delta. The point still remains (a) the origin of the virus is not established because China is blocking any investigation (b) consequently we also have zero clarity on how it spread and how much of the spread and leak was intentional and unintentional (c) yes, many countries are adversely impacted w. R. T. Their economies, including China BUT some are impacted much worse than others, and so far the trends are that China is less impacted than its key geopolitical rivals. If you have proof to refute these points, please do present them. Whether China foresaw how the impact would work out and was prepared to sacrifice a few pawns to capture the Queen of its opponent, that I do not know but there is no proof to say such a thing didn't happen. I will let you put probabilities.My argument wasn't about probabilities or the hypothetical chess game, I still think it is an extremely far fetched theory, but about the origin of these theories. You can see that Mr. T and his cohorts have played an enormous role in propagating these theories. A few points that should be obvious to anyone whether you support him or not, honesty is not his strong point and I do differ with you on one point, Pompeo is a total ass kissing sycophant who will say anything to please Mr T not an independent source of information.

The allegations you describe have been spurred in large part by the political face saving theories pushed by this group, that was the gist of my argument. I still think the theory is very far fetched on its merits but I choose to not even go into that this time since you know my arguments in that respect about how futile a strategy I think that would be, but you differ and disagree, that is fine and your opinion. This does boil down to a matter of conviction as well, yes the Chinese can be totally ruthless, but I believe not this ruthless and they would not take risks like this, you believe otherwise. Fine.

All I wanted to point out that a lot of the ammunition for these theories is highly questionable and with obvious political motives.

Pessimist
05-27-20, 17:46
Yes, we are all aware that world commerce is interlinked, not exactly breaking news. The question is who is hurt more, and if the relative pain is less, is it plausible that a desperate, rogue regime act irresponsibly and take such a horrible step -- the very nature of it being such that even the people living in countries which are being targeted by such action would exclaim "No, they could not do such a thing, could they? No, I don't believe they did. I mean, they could and't, nobody would".

I am looking at Bloomberg screen right now. The expected real GDP in US in 2020 is -5.7% from +2.3% in 2019. Investment is expected to be -9.8% yoy, unemployment is expected to be 11% at year end, exports are expected to -7.1% yoy. Debt as of GDP is expected to surge to 99% from 79% in 2019. In contrast, China's GDP is expected to be +1.8% in 2020 from 6. 1% in 2019, unemployment is expected to move to 4.3% at year end from 3. 6% at the end of 2019, industrial production is expected to be at 1.6% compared to 5.5% for 2019. Germany's GDP is expected to be -6.2% for 2020 from +0. 6% in 2019, Industrial production is expected to be -8.1% yoy, exports -10.9% yoy; France is expected to have GDP -9.1%, Japan real GDP of -4.7%, and so on.

While these are consensus economist expectations and not the actual #s, global economy works on expectations and they do show China is still growing this year and coming out relatively unscathed, especially compared to key global rivals.

Pessimist
05-27-20, 18:01
I do differ with you on one point, Pompeo is a total ass kissing sycophant who will say anything to please Mr T not an independent source of information.Well, I did not say Pompeo was not a ass kissing sycophant; one has to be, to gain Trump's full confidence.

I said the following: "Pompeo is probably the closest confidant of Trump in his cabinet and Trump fully subscribes to Pompeo views and feels the same way". I did not say Pompeo is an independent source of information -- he does reflect and channel Trump's views but the reason his statements matter more is because he has Trump's confidence (as opposed to say, Tillerson did or Fauci now -- so, when Tillerson or Fauci say something, you can dismiss them as not reflecting the views of POTUS, but when Pompeo says something, he does speak for Trump).

That is the key point I was making -- that the view that the virus is man made and came out of a Wuhan Lab is effectively the view of US government at the moment. We can all disagree but it IS the US government view for now. So, there remains only the second question in their view, which they have not yet articulated but might do so in the future "did Chinese government intentionally leak it?

Delta Indigo
05-27-20, 18:34
Well, I did not say Pompeo was not a ass kissing sycophant; one has to be, to gain Trump's full confidence.

I said the following: "Pompeo is probably the closest confidant of Trump in his cabinet and Trump fully subscribes to Pompeo views and feels the same way". I did not say Pompeo is an independent source of information -- he does reflect and channel Trump's views but the reason his statements matter more is because he has Trump's confidence (as opposed to say, Tillerson did or Fauci now -- so, when Tillerson or Fauci say something, you can dismiss them as not reflecting the views of POTUS, but when Pompeo says something, he does speak for Trump).

That is the key point I was making -- that the view that the virus is man made and came out of a Wuhan Lab is effectively the view of US government at the moment. We can all disagree but it IS the US government view for now. So, there remains only the second question in their view, which they have not yet articulated but might do so in the future "did Chinese government intentionally leak it?What do you mean by the US government, Trump and his inner circle? Is that the view of NIH or Fauci, the medical arm of the US government? It has become bizarre with Trump, on the one hand it is his Federal guidelines about distancing and the lock down that he pushes various political allies to protest against. A lot of the time there isn't a coherent view, there is the official view and polite policy on the one hand and Mr T and some prominent allies on the other hand.

So if it just Mr. T and Pompeo, I still wouldn't consider if the "official" view of the US government. Also Mr. T does contradict himself a lot and say one thing one day and the total opposite the next day. He is obviously getting stressed about the prospects of his re election and lashing out at various other parties for blame. Look I am not a doctor or molecular biologist, but I thought the overwhelming consensus is that this is not man made and is totally consistent with natural evolution, there will always be some voices that dissent of course.

The Cane
05-27-20, 18:56
Yes, we are all aware that world commerce is interlinked, not exactly breaking news. The question is who is hurt more, and if the relative pain is less, is it plausible that a desperate, rogue regime act irresponsibly and take such a horrible step -- the very nature of it being such that even the people living in countries which are being targeted by such action would exclaim "No, they could not do such a thing, could they? No, I don't believe they did. I mean, they could and't, nobody would".Or conspiratorial China? Look, it doesn't matter "who is hurt more" if you did so much damage so as to smash your own economy. That's what we call a "Pyrrhic victory" (at too great a cost to be worthwhile to the victor). Now, I don't know what economic school of thought you come from, but I would suggest that going from a predicted 6. 1% GDP to 1. 8% GDP would be some pretty significant self-inflicted economic damage if they did it on purpose, and far from coming out "unscathed". Not to mention what such a stupid act would do to a country's international reputation. They already have a sketchy reputation for how they handle their internal affairs. To interfere in the internal affairs of other countries, including major trading partners, by intentionally releasing a deadly virus takes it all to another level. I'm no China fan, but I give them credit for being more intelligent than that. Again, it's just another silly conspiracy theory. The world will be better off if we get on with this and start working together to try to solve the problem versus finger pointing and tossing around unfounded charges and conspiracy theories, like it was the USA army that unleashed the virus upon China. Come on people! And by the way, I was one of the few to stand up strong against Gino's posts.

Pessimist
05-27-20, 19:00
What do you mean by the US government, Trump and his inner circle? Is that the view of NIH or Fauci, the medical arm of the US government? It has become bizarre with Trump, on the one hand it is his Federal guidelines about distancing and the lock down that he pushes various political allies to protest against. A lot of the time there isn't a coherent view, there is the official view and polite policy on the one hand and Mr T and some prominent allies on the other hand.

So if it just Mr. T and Pompeo, I still wouldn't consider if the "official" view of the US government. Also Mr. T does contradict himself a lot and say one thing one day and the total opposite the next day. He is obviously getting stressed about the prospects of his re election and lashing out at various other parties for blame. Look I am not a doctor or molecular biologist, but I thought the overwhelming consensus is that this is not man made and is totally consistent with natural evolution, there will always be some voices that dissent of course.Yes, that is how it works. Fauci can be fired by Trump and replaced with someone else by Trump. Fauci cannot fire Trump and Fauci cannot replace Trump with someone else. Until Jan 20,2021, Trump's views represent the US government views, like it or not. I acknowledge Trump changes his views, but until he does, the latest articulation by Pompeo can be taken as representing the views of POTUS.

Look, I am not taking a personal view on the origin of Corona. I am just saying that US government of which this POTUS speaks with an absolute authority at the current time, has taken a stance. There is not enough info to incontrovertibly refute his stance because any independent investigation has not been allowed. While Trump speaks with a language that can make you wince, other nations have been very unhappy as well. To wit Australia; and relationship between Aussies and China is at all time low, because Australia was bold enough to ask for answers and China does not like nations in its neighborhood who question the mighty China.

I am not aware that any overwhelming scientific consensus on this subject was already formed when the scientists did not have access to the region of origin and were unable to perform any study.

As you say, we can agree to disagree. And I reiterate this is not even my theory nor that I fully subscribe to it. I don't even deny that the probability of this theory being accurate is not too high. But I would not assign a probability of zero, not until it can be proven wrong convincingly; there is no question that on the economy side, the virus has hurt US and EU and even JP considerably worse than it has hurt China, based on the numbers I already printed below.

Motive is a powerful indicator when investigators examine a crime, and the narrowing of economic gap coupled with pressure at home that Xi Jinping has been facing due to trade fallout and slowing economy presents one powerful motive in my view, even if the risk seems extraordinarily foolish.

Sirioja
05-27-20, 19:39
France forbid chloroquine, more dangerous and killer than efficient to cure from virus, no competition with Trump. Western Europe don't even tell about japanese avigan, for efficiency versus virus.

Pessimist
05-27-20, 19:49
Or conspiratorial China? Look, it doesn't matter "who is hurt more" if you did so much damage so as to smash your own economy. That's what we call a "Pyrrhic victory" (at too great a cost to be worthwhile to the victor). Now, I don't know what economic school of thought you come from, but I would suggest that going from a predicted 6. 1% GDP to 1. 8% GDP would be some pretty significant self-inflicted economic damage if they did it on purpose, and far from coming out "unscathed". Not to mention what such a stupid act would do to a country's international reputation. They already have a sketchy reputation for how they handle their internal affairs. To interfere in the internal affairs of other countries, including major trading partners, by intentionally releasing a deadly virus takes it all to another level. I'm no China fan, but I give them more credit for being more intelligent than that. Again, it's just another silly conspiracy theory. The world will be better off if we get on with this and start working together to try to solve the problem versus finger pointing and tossing around unfounded charges and conspiracy theories, like it was the USA army that unleashed the virus upon China. Come on people! And by the way, I was one of the few to stand up strong against Gino's posts.Well, I appreciate that you stood up against Gino but his fire was directed at me from start to finish (he has been pretty silent, hasn't he been; hmm hope he is doing OK). I even have been skipping GT for a while now, although it very much helps that I no longer like this club in making my "principled decision" hehe.

Anyway, I come from the school that says China has a rogue regime which is impeding an investigation that is in the interest of all nations given the amount of global damage that got inflicted on everyone, whether it is number of lives lost or the economic damage inflicted. And yes, US lost in many ways big time but it may be that the biggest price to be paid in the end would be coming from the unfortunate nations in LatAM (Brazil is getting decimated as we speak, it is a pure heart break nation at the moment), India and Africa and Pakistan and Bangladesh, and so on.

"what such a stupid act would do to a country's international reputation" -- well, I can submit to you that China's international reputation was far from being sterling and is much worse now than it has ever been. So, if "The world will be better off if we get on with this and start working together to try to solve the problem", a huge part of the working together begins with understanding the origin of the virus and its nature and this very much constitutes what an epidemiologist does except in this instance they can't and no prizes for guessing why such an investigation is not happening.

Delta Indigo
05-27-20, 19:57
Or conspiratorial China? Look, it doesn't matter "who is hurt more" if you did so much damage so as to smash your own economy. That's what we call a "Pyrrhic victory" (at too great a cost to be worthwhile to the victor). Now, I don't know what economic school of thought you come from, but I would suggest that going from a predicted 6. 1% GDP to 1. 8% GDP would be some pretty significant self-inflicted economic damage if they did it on purpose, and far from coming out "unscathed". Not to mention what such a stupid act would do to a country's international reputation. They already have a sketchy reputation for how they handle their internal affairs. To interfere in the internal affairs of other countries, including major trading partners, by intentionally releasing a deadly virus takes it all to another level. I'm no China fan, but I give them more credit for being more intelligent than that. Again, it's just another silly conspiracy theory. The world will be better off if we get on with this and start working together to try to solve the problem versus finger pointing and tossing around unfounded charges and conspiracy theories, like it was the USA army that unleashed the virus upon China. Come on people! And by the way, I was one of the few to stand up strong against Gino's posts.I also think the whole theory is quite ludicrous, but I am trying to refute the theory in a civilized tone. I was a student of Economics and without saying much more so that I don't reveal who I am, some close relatives of mine are Economics Professors, one of whom studies the Chinese economy quite closely.

The Chinese growth statistics are always a bit exaggerated and pumped up, some people say by a little, others say by a lot, I once had read in the Economist that 8% growth statistics in China point to a stagnant economy, this was in 2008 and now the baseline has shifted, more like 4% probably represents no real growth. There is a lot of controversy about figures in a society that is not at all transparent, but something similar is said about Chinese debt, Gordon Chang's writings discuss this in great detail, he said Chinese government debt is not really 50% of GDP but more like 200% when the debts of state owned enterprises are factored in. Not everyone agrees with him, but I can give you a source on this one, https://nationalinterest.org/feature/chinas-debt-debacle-68417 But anyhow it is quite clear to me that when the Chinese government reports figures of below 2% growth the actual situation is far worse. I concede to Pessimist that the West's growth figures are worse, but this is what you would expect from a middle income emerging market anyhow. Those countries grow faster and recover faster, sometimes (basket cases like Argentina) they fall even further but that is not common. But what has happened to China, even though it is arguably not as painful as what the US is enduring, is in no uncertain terms very politically painful for the CCP.

The shred of political legitimacy that the CCP has, the reason it has the modern "mandate of heaven" is because it is supposed to ensure prosperity and a rising standard of living. I would say this pandemic and the economic damage to China's largest trading partners is something that neither Xi nor the CCP would like to go through or are enjoying, far from it. Yes Xi has becoming increasingly authoritarian and bold, but that was in the face of relative economic success during the last decade, now this has been set back enormously.

About the virus being man made, I will let others read these sources, https://www.livescience.com/coronavirus-not-human-made-in-lab.html and https://www.bettergov.org/news/fact-check-no-the-novel-coronavirus-was-not-man-made/.

I am not a molecular biologist, but that is the basis of my assertion that a scientific consensus seems to exist that the virus is natural. What we do know and is well known and not a dark secret that due to various epidemics, by the ways bats are responsible for many corona viruses, that Chinese doctors and scientists were harvesting natural viruses and studying them in a lab to better understand them. They might have made a mistake, but I would strongly doubt that they deliberately released it.

We do live in an age, when people literally will believe anything, conspiracy theories are very popular in general, please note that I am not talking about this one in particular and I am not aiming this comment at any one person. A careful and nuanced understanding of the underlying socio-economic, political and scientific facts actually explains and reveals a lot.

Please understand that I am not aiming this as an attack on anyone in particular, I think Pessimistic has been very cordial and civilized in this discussion. However I am honestly articulating what I think of conspiracy theories in general, often the arguments behind them are poorly backed up. If is of course far costlier to explain complex things in detail.

One last point, proving the counter factual is impossible. So if someone says something like prove God does not exist, that is not possible and does not prove God does exist. Same with this issue, prove it didn't happen is a logically and philosophically inane line of argument.

Pessimist
05-27-20, 20:24
The shred of political legitimacy that the CCP has, the reason it has the modern "mandate of heaven" is because it is supposed to ensure prosperity and a rising standard of living. I would say this pandemic and the economic damage to China's largest trading partners is something that neither Xi nor the CCP would like to go through or are enjoying, far from it. Yes Xi has becoming increasingly authoritarian and bold, but that was in the face of relative economic success during the last decade, now this has been set back enormously..I am not at all in disagreement that China's economic data is generally untrustworthy and anyone who is a market participant has known that much and learned how to triangulate data to get some sense of reality over the years. Trillions of dollars are invested in markets and those are not based on wild guesswork. There is a broad consensus that China is hurt much less by covid, the Bloomberg #s I presented below is the consensus of all economists which are surveyed by Bloomberg and that includes all the large banks such as Goldman and MS to independent ones like ISI and so on. Western companies that sell in China also tell us how things are coming back to life in China vs in the west. You can dispute the relative health all you want but there is no dispute among economists as of now. As for whether it is a conspiracy theory, wildly off conspiracy theory -- those are just adjectives. I already said very clearly I put the probability at a low amount but also that you can't prove the probability is zero.

As for Xi -- he would not be first one to have made a stupid decision, would he? Wag the dog theory applies to even China, not just US or West. Whipping up nationalism when one's political back is to the wall is a time honored tradition. Will it backfire on him, was it a stupid decision if he indeed made such a decision? Only time will tell, but even if it hurts him or helps him, that is with the help of hindsight. The question is, was there any motivation and did he have the means to take that decision and act on it? In my view, yes. Whether he actually did, we will never know.

Beijing4987
05-27-20, 20:53
Take a ride on the metro in Suzhou (population 6. 5 + million,2 million e scooters) or Shanghai. Hop on a fast train from Guangzhou (canton) to Beijing. My Suzhou supplier says that only the "grocery stores are busy making money. 60% of Alibaba (Tao Bao are knock-offs, poor quality" I bought a shop vac, French chocolate, japanese pill cutters, genuine corona and German beer that arrived one day later. Only the rural provinces and backwaters are a "developing country" Every country has an underground economy. The MS-13 gang members repatriated to their home countries are multinational now. Banksters launder their profits. Weapons bought by straw men and Eric Holder in the USA flow freely. The only no no for the Mossad is whacking a head of state. Not so for the CIA. Well, they make the "economy scream" in Chile and train the military at Fort Benning and bomb appropriate targets in Libya with help from Tony Blair. Trump will never run out of enemies or someone else to blame. The Chinese communist Party has a long term plan while POTUS is busy painting himself into a corner while his minions steal everything that isn't nailed down. Wet markets with wild animals are all over Asia.

McAdonis
05-27-20, 21:47
I am not aware that any overwhelming scientific consensus on this subject was already formed when the scientists did not have access to the region of origin and were unable to perform any study.Scientists can look at the RNA in the samples to determine if it is man made or not, they need not go to Wuhan to make this conclusion. I agree that China is in the wrong for blocking investigations of the Wuhan labs. It suggests a possible cover-up. Maybe scientists did not follow proper safety protocols and caught the virus from infected animals, resulting in an accidental spread to the general population.

Press statement from Director of National Intelligence website:


"The Intelligence Community also concurs with the wide scientific consensus that the COVID-19 virus was not manmade or genetically modified. he IC will continue to rigorously examine emerging information and intelligence to determine whether the outbreak began through contact with infected animals or if it was the result of an accident at a laboratory in Wuhan."

https://www.dni.gov/index.php/newsroom/press-releases/item/2112-intelligence-community-statement-on-origins-of-covid-19
Or conspiratorial China? Look, it doesn't matter "who is hurt more" if you did so much damage so as to smash your own economy. That's what we call a "Pyrrhic victory" (at too great a cost to be worthwhile to the victor). Now, I don't know what economic school of thought you come from, but I would suggest that going from a predicted 6. 1% GDP to 1. 8% GDP would be some pretty significant self-inflicted economic damage if they did it on purpose, and far from coming out "unscathed". Not to mention what such a stupid act would do to a country's international reputation. They already have a sketchy reputation for how they handle their internal affairs. To interfere in the internal affairs of other countries, including major trading partners, by intentionally releasing a deadly virus takes it all to another level. I'm no China fan, but I give them credit for being more intelligent than that.Good point about international reputation. The world does not differentiate Chinese companies from the CCP. The suspicion that the CCP's tentacles can reach deep into Chinese companies creates a certain level of distrust amongst free nations. This is why many EU nations were on the fence (or opposed a deal) with Huawei for their 5 G rollout. This was true even before CV-19. If it is found that CV-19 was used as a bioweapon intentionally, all trust is eroded to zero and the 5 G deal is scuttled completely. Even now that deal is in jeopardy, as is Huawei's future existence. The question is would the CCP sacrifice one of its tech giants for a Pyrrhic victory? The irony, of course, it that is widely believed that US intel agencies used Cisco, a private company, as an arm to spy on it European allies: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-germany-spying/germany-should-ban-u-s-contracting-companies-passing-data-to-nsa-report-idUSBRE9BK07P20131221.

Pessimist
05-28-20, 14:18
Scientists can look at the RNA in the samples to determine if it is man made or not, they need not go to Wuhan to make this conclusion. I agree that China is in the wrong for blocking investigations of the Wuhan labs. It suggests a possible cover-up. Maybe scientists did not follow proper safety protocols and caught the virus from infected animals, resulting in an accidental spread to the general population.

Press statement from Director of National Intelligence website:

Good point about international reputation. The world does not differentiate Chinese companies from the CCP. The suspicion that the CCP's tentacles can reach deep into Chinese companies creates a certain level of distrust amongst free nations. This is why many EU nations were on the fence (or opposed a deal) with Huawei for their 5 G rollout. This was true even before CV-19. If it is found that CV-19 was used as a bioweapon intentionally, all trust is eroded to zero and the 5 G deal is scuttled completely. Even now that deal is in jeopardy, as is Huawei's future existence. The question is would the CCP sacrifice one of its tech giants for a Pyrrhic victory?.China's industrial and governmental espionage goes much further than mere Hua Wei and I am sorry, this false equivalence between Cisco and Hua Wei or what China does to what US does is generally not accepted by anyone in the West. Hua Wei is guilty of much more than espionage. It killed much of European tech industry in the telecommunications hardware segment. There used to be dozens of companies in Europe healthy and prosperous and providing good jobs in Europe and now you have just Nokia and Ericsson both very much weakened (Ericsson ADR stock price was $70 in 2000 and now under $9 while Nokia ADR was at $48 in 2000 and now under $4). Due to Hua Wei's price dumping actions supported by Chinese government unlimited interest free financing, Hua Wei has stolen a March on them, not to mention stealing industrial secrets. European nations are split, none can stand up against China on their own as they are not strong or big enough, and they have too many internecine squabbles to stand together, and China has exploited this rift to perfection. Not just in telecommunications but in so many walks of economy. The biggest danger is in automobile segment. Germany is hugely dependent on automobiles for its economy and if China is able to inflict the kind of damage in autos as it did in telecom, it will be terrible for German economy and we all know how important is Germany to Europe.

In short, there are hundreds if not thousands of examples of what a rogue and insidious state Chinese regime has been. Support it if you will, but Corona is forcing many to finally confront the truth which they should have done a while ago.

As for the virus investigation, if it was easy enough to trace it all the way back w / o any help from China, western scientists would have done that already. When every nation is saying that China is blocking an investigation, you can take it that China is indeed blocking a real investigation. I will let you put a benign spin on why they are doing it or that they don't really have much to hide even though they are the ones hiding whatever they are hiding.

McAdonis
05-28-20, 21:55
As for the virus investigation, if it was easy enough to trace it all the way back w / o any help from China, western scientists would have done that already. When every nation is saying that China is blocking an investigation, you can take it that China is indeed blocking a real investigation. I will let you put a benign spin on why they are doing it or that they don't really have much to hide even though they are the ones hiding whatever they are hiding.China is most likely hiding that there was some sort of accident at the lab. I posted a link from Dot Gov website, not some liberal rag. This link from the Director of National Intelligence states that the scientific consensus believes the virus is not man made. There is consensus on climate change amongst the scientific community as well, yet some politicians continue to discredit climate change. This is a recurring theme. The tragedy is that science is partly what made the USA the most powerful nation on earth. Internet, space program, etc. Here is a opinion piece from American astrophysicist:


"If you're serious about making America great again -- and by "again," I mean greater than it's ever been, and greater than any country in the world is by any metric -- this is what it'll take. Science is how we became great in the first place. It's only by doing more and better science, and by listening to the robust scientific conclusions, whatever they may say, that we'll have the greatest version of America possible. But we have to be willing to invest, and we have to be willing to accept and listen to truths that may range from uncomfortable to disconcerting to outrageous. The choice is ours: invest in science and improve, or don't. We've borne the consequences of stagnation from under-investing for many decades now. If we're serious about making our country (and our world) as great as we possibly can, it's time to band together, to invest in our future, and -- if we really want to go the whole way -- to start thinking like scientists whenever we can."

https://www.forbes.com/sites/startswithabang/2016/09/27/science-is-what-made-america-great
"Scientists Reach 100% Consensus on Anthropogenic Global Warming": https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/0270467619886266.

Polyamorist
05-29-20, 02:12
China as capacity of country beat Japan, they are ranked second now in the world due to their quantity and Japan is guilty for that as we are one of the main nation who gave them technology.

However, it is not all black and white, Japan unlike most nations, we have so much actual cash cows, I won't name all companies, but whether it is sony, panasonic, toshiba, mitsubishi ufj bank, mitsui sumitomo bank or uniqlo or omron or cannon and so on lists are endless as I hope you least know, these are all Japanese companies and most of our companies are all in top 10 or top 5 in the world in all sectors of different industries, where as China only has few of that at the moment and mostly are still factories, as they are called the factories of world and hey usa trying to pull out, Japan is trying to pull out and hopefully rest of world including France who made this failed virus laboratory in wuhan China too. It is just quantity power of China, look at that nation look their insane size and hey look at Japan, it is tiny island nation who got to top fast because we are organized, honest, disciplined, good refined sophisticated culture (this also France and Italy too) and most importantly intelligent. But size did beat Japan, but like in most things in life it is matter of time, I hope for world. China is not safe due to their communist government, people are OK, but tend to cheat a lot, so let see if that culture change, they are opposite of how japanese people are, we are honest being who focus on quality that got us to top.Salaam Ho-san.

My respect for China and Japan has nothing to do with economics or even public health, but rather the secrets that they hold. Civilizations this ancient must know things that Western countries never picked up.

Consider the great importance the Chinese have attached to filial piety. One ancient master compiled a book of 24 stories with examples of sons and daughters honoring their parents in extreme ways. https://www2.kenyon.edu/Depts/Religion/Fac/Adler/Reln270/24-filial1.htm.

It is recounted that a Chinese man once visited Japan, and proudly showed his host this book, saying, "What can you show me that can compare to this exceptional devotion? In Japan do you have 24 cases of such filial piety?" The Japanese replied that they had no need of such a book in his culture. It would be like writing a book to say that a stone ought to fall when it is dropped. The extraordinary thing would be to find 24 cases of the absence of filial piety.

Sirioja
05-29-20, 04:38
China's industrial and governmental espionage goes much further than mere Hua Wei and I am sorry, this false equivalence between Cisco and Hua Wei or what China does to what US does is generally not accepted by anyone in the West. Hua Wei is guilty of much more than espionage. It killed much of European tech industry in the telecommunications hardware segment. There used to be dozens of companies in Europe healthy and prosperous and providing good jobs in Europe and now you have just Nokia and Ericsson both very much weakened (Ericsson ADR stock price was $70 in 2000 and now under $9 while Nokia ADR was at $48 in 2000 and now under $4). Due to Hua Wei's price dumping actions supported by Chinese government unlimited interest free financing, Hua Wei has stolen a March on them, not to mention stealing industrial secrets. European nations are split, none can stand up against China on their own as they are not strong or big enough, and they have too many internecine squabbles to stand together, and China has exploited this rift to perfection. Not just in telecommunications but in so many walks of economy. The biggest danger is in automobile segment. Germany is hugely dependent on automobiles for its economy and if China is able to inflict the kind of damage in autos as it did in telecom, it will be terrible for German economy and we all know how important is Germany to Europe..Killing European companies when Huawei or Samsung are not same quality than what was Nokia, when I had Nokia mobiles from 1995 to 2019 and I regret their quality. China and most of Asia are just for cheap, not for quality. If you drive Audi because I think best quality now after Porsche, out of Bugatti, Rolls, Bentley and Aston, then you will never buy Chinese or Korean car Kia or Hunday or SangYong, and I don't see in Japan when Nissan GTR is powered by legendary European Cosworth which powered beloved car for nearly 25 years of my life, legendary, my rodeo girl, RS500 . Western Europe have to protect better our safety, health and our own level of quality, nobody else, not even US, can compete with. I think Germany is understanding Europe is their main market when some others are falling, even before virus, and we have to learn from this crisis to become stronger.

On other point, US are now more than 100 000 deaths and larger than France Texas is falling for petrol, meat markets with many unemployment. French journalists there showed us images of people threatening others, not having mask and coughing on others face, crazy Trump is making many crazy dangerous like for weapons, when they are far worst country and not finished there for virus, when really slow now in Europe. Of course, nobody know about real Chinese figures, to try to protect their economy already falling before virus, but not our standard of quality, but only cheap, like tests which were not reliable, to protect our health. Just dangerous.

Pistons
05-29-20, 09:51
- Xi knew about the corona virus at least 6 days before the announcement. Those 6 days were essential for the virus to spread into an epidemic.

- The reason for the holdout was the CCP meeting in March, and any SARS like epidemic would be considered a safety threat to the regime itself. Thus they chose to try and hide it. The memo for the conversation meeting where this was discussed can be found online, if you search for it. Ironically the CCP meeting in March were never held due to covid 19.

- There are absolutely no way to find out if the virus was made by human scientists at the Wuhan lab, unless you do thorough testing at the Wuhan lab in question. If you think otherwise, then you are massively underestimating gene science as of 2019.

- Huawei was not at the center of the Cisco (other US companies were also involved IIRC) scandal, but two other original equipment manufacturers in China who made some of the parts for Huawei. So even if Huawei themselves has, or had all the good intentions possible, due to their size and global intentions, their very own chinese industrial component network in which they rely heavily upon, might have different intention. With CCP funded bonus checks in mind, and lower risk of potential losses. Just take a trip to Shenzhen yourself, and you will find large parts of this industrial network situated in shopping mall sweatshops with teenage workers, earning terrible wages, working like crazy 12 hours a day. And if they as much as look up if you say Hi or talk to them, the manager comes over and yells at them. As was seen by yours truly some 8 years ago. This is hard to compete against for anyone under western labor laws.

Pistons
05-29-20, 10:23
Take a ride on the metro in Suzhou (population 6. 5 + million,2 million e scooters) or Shanghai. Hop on a fast train from Guangzhou (canton) to Beijing. My Suzhou supplier says that only the "grocery stores are busy making money. 60% of Alibaba (Tao Bao are knock-offs, poor quality" I bought a shop vac, French chocolate, japanese pill cutters, genuine corona and German beer that arrived one day later. Only the rural provinces and backwaters are a "developing country" Every country has an underground economy. The MS-13 gang members repatriated to their home countries are multinational now. Banksters launder their profits. Weapons bought by straw men and Eric Holder in the USA flow freely. The only no no for the Mossad is whacking a head of state. Not so for the CIA. Well, they make the "economy scream" in Chile and train the military at Fort Benning and bomb appropriate targets in Libya with help from Tony Blair. Trump will never run out of enemies or someone else to blame. The Chinese communist Party has a long term plan while POTUS is busy painting himself into a corner while his minions steal everything that isn't nailed down. Wet markets with wild animals are all over Asia.LOL, yeah the wet market blame is just laughable.

But going back to Libya and Blair is history. And handing Trump the idea of power in a western world being run by central banks and bildenbergs is a joke. What worries me is how the microphone known as Trump is being used to clamp down on social media also in the west. In essence making the USA as much into a fascist run part of the world as China is under CCP. But it is not Trump. It is the people behind Trump. Trump himself is indebted massively. If you want to know who holds the power, just follow the money. The same can be said for China and Russia. Xi however has a lot more power in China, but that is why he and the regime around him is so terrified of the world around them which 'may cause instability', that every single epidemic is being hushed at. And you cannot beat it. It is the almighty greenback. Backed by the almighty US army.

Always follow the money.

As a side point, being honest in China sends you to jail. Lying gives you a promotion. This is the climate one operates in when trying to fight the international world bodies under a fascist run state regime.

Just look at China's second in command and his very own track record at lying to his own people, and put this history lesson up against the corona outbreak:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2240830/amp/Chinas-new-leader-Henan-Li-led-hospital-cover-saw-300k-people-infected-HIV.html

Cheers! Have a Corona Extra!

Pistons
05-29-20, 10:50
I suppose one good thing about Europe being so defragmented is that we won't get our egos up high enough to drive politics and the society in a facist direction. Something in which seems to be an historically appropriate turn of events in a buildup to a large war. Either cold or warm.

And when it comes to Japanese companies, sure Sony is big. But they were bigger I seem to recall. Panasonic too I believe, and their TV's are much worse than the Korean ones. Mitsubishi used to have OK cars. Now I don't see any, but they do have their bank I suppose. Canon? Are they still alive? I thought they died 15 years ago with the smartphone arrivals. Toshiba only has those sd memory cards left. The rest of the company is a balance sheet disaster. And Toyota? Well, they can automate production like none others. Still alive and well, but how well will they do in the years to come with EV cars? No one knows yet. Honda and Suzuki are both into this global merging thing that has been going on just to save face. The same can be said about French cars. All non competitive. Only Tesla and the German cars are competitive globally in my view. Everyone else aside from Toyota are copycats.

Pistons
05-29-20, 10:53
But it is not a Japanese only story. The same trend is seen in Europe and north America. Only the venture capital firms are still alive. Running from some tax heaven on a tropical island with 0 or near 0 taxes. Japan does have their Softbank, but I am sure that guy has some tax incentives too where he runs it from.

Pistons
05-29-20, 10:54
Seems Softbank is not Japanese. It is registered in Bermuda.

https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2018/04/18/business/corporate-business/softbank-failed-report-income-%C2%A593-9-billion-tax-haven-units-sources-say/#. XtDcyGmxVzA.

Pessimist
05-29-20, 13:36
China is most likely hiding that there was some sort of accident at the lab. I posted a link from Dot Gov website, not some liberal rag. This link from the Director of National Intelligence states that the scientific consensus believes the virus is not man made. There is consensus on climate change amongst the scientific community as well, yet some politicians continue to discredit climate change. This is a recurring theme. The tragedy is that science is partly what made the USA the most powerful nation on earth. Internet, space program, etc. Here is a opinion piece from American astrophysicist:

"Scientists Reach 100% Consensus on Anthropogenic Global Warming": https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/0270467619886266.I do not think it is appropriate to expand the topic of discussion to include some other topic to support a particular point of view. I do not think throwing in a second topic into the mix in anyway provides evidence to a particular side of the argument in the first topic. However, you are obviously welcome to bring in all these additional topics such as global warming into the mix.

As for the virus itself, saying something like "scientists believe" is not a particularly compelling evidence or conclusion. Virus origination is an issue which can be established with a good amount of accuracy as I understood. It is not something which scientists "need to believe" - if they are able to investigate, they can actually trace it all the way back. We are not able to do it because the country of origin has blocked all efforts in that direction. And I will also point out that this is a fast evolving situation. Our understanding of the virus, what works and what doesn't, what it is or not, are all evolving. Till a few days ago, children were thought to be fairly safe and then they found some symptoms along the lines of Kawasaki syndrome. CDC did not think masks were super helpful and then they changed their recommendation. To think that some consensus has already been established is just not credible. Who are the scientists included in this consensus poll? To take a snippet from a particular website and present it does not mean that argument has gained any great amount of credibility. The US government has several dozens of agencies and each with their own websites, and each site has thousands of pages. Not all of these pages are updated in real time and not all of them are consistent. If you want to "prove your pov" by posting a snippet from a particular page that says "scientists believe this is not man made", yes you will find a page I am sure. But I wonder how any consensus is already formed in less than a few months of virus outbreak, when these scientists were not able to conduct the sort of investigation that they normally do to come to such conclusions and consensus, and why is it necessary to believe anything as if it is an article of faith instead of doing a thorough investigation. I also wonder why it is that you are more eager to find faults and shortcomings in the acceptance of science in US society while it is the rogue regime in China that is blocking an investigation which is of enormous help and interest to all humanity. Regardless of what you think of science and it's acceptance in the US society, if you see the technology or healthcare industries, the market share of US companies and the wealth generated by US based companies in these sectors has continually increased over time.

Pessimist
05-29-20, 15:04
I suppose one good thing about Europe being so defragmented is that we won't get our egos up high enough to drive politics and the society in a facist direction. Something in which seems to be an historically appropriate turn of events in a buildup to a large war. Either cold or warm.

And when it comes to Japanese companies, sure Sony is big. But they were bigger I seem to recall. Panasonic too I believe, and their TV's are much worse than the Korean ones. Mitsubishi used to have OK cars. Now I don't see any, but they do have their bank I suppose. Canon? Are they still alive? I thought they died 15 years ago with the smartphone arrivals. Toshiba only has those sd memory cards left. The rest of the company is a balance sheet disaster. And Toyota? Well, they can automate production like none others. Still alive and well, but how well will they do in the years to come with EV cars? No one knows yet. Honda and Suzuki are both into this global merging thing that has been going on just to save face. The same can be said about French cars. All non competitive. Only Tesla and the German cars are competitive globally in my view. Everyone else aside from Toyota are copycats.I wish Europe was stronger. Or more united. In this bipolar world, we increasingly need a stronger Europe. I find the work life balance they have achieved more attractive than what I find in the US with its never ending treadmill. But if anything, Europe has continuously lost ground since 2009 and the gap between US to Europe or China to Europe has gone against Europe in 12 years. If I could make my pay check in the US and spend it in Europe, that would be a most attractive life, that's what I want. I bet a lot of American men would take such a deal.

As for the companies you mentioned, here are some numbers: Sony had revenue of $84 be in fiscal 2011, now it is at $75 be. It is actually one of the stronger tech companies in Japan and has a market value of $80 be now but that is compared to Apple at $1,380 be as an example. Panasonic had sales of $99 be in fiscal 2012, now it is $69 B. Toshiba had sales of $75 be in fiscal 2012, now $32 be. Canon has revenues of $32 be now, vs $44 be in fiscal 2011 (Canon makes very good office products such as the main parts of printers that HP sells, strong in imaging systems, medical equipment, etc). Toyota is still strong, $200 be sales in 2010, $275 be now. Softbank is extremely indebted, Masa Son had the good fortune of investing in Alibaba early but his luck has run out now, too many mistakes of late.

Pessimist
05-29-20, 15:45
Here are a couple of counter examples.

The second one has 3 authors of which 2 have Chinese sounding names.

The point of this: There is a lo of work being done as we speak. To claim that the origin of virus is already settled science, "there is broad scientific consensus it is not man made" is not accurate when researchers are saying work needs to be done to investigate the origins. The Flinders team is one of the leaders in a vaccine development in Australia, per media articles. I don't know how good are the second paper's authors. But how do we know their research is less valid? As I asked "who is included in this broad scientific consensus"? And who is excluded? How did scientific consensus rush to reach such broad based consensus so fast?

The study, led by Flinders University scientists, compared the modeling to the virus's ability to bind to human cells and found the SARS-CoV-2 virus targets humans more potently than any of the tested animal species.

"The results clearly show that the COVID-19 virus is exquisitely adapted to infect humans," says Flinders University Professor Nikolai Petrovsky, lead author of a new paper just published online in arXiv, a leading US preprint server for researchers.

"The virus's ability to bind protein on human cells was far greater than its ability to bind the same protein in bats, which argues against bats being a direct source of the human virus."

The team's computer modeling shows the SARS-CoV-2 virus also bound strongly to cells of pangolins, an exotic ant-eater illegally imported into China.

"While it has been suggested by some Chinese scientists that the COVID-19 virus might have been transmitted to humans from pangolins, currently available data does not support this idea," Professor Petrovsky says.

How and where the SARS-CoV-2 virus adapted to become such an effective human pathogen remains a mystery, the scientists conclude, adding that finding the origins of the disease will help efforts to protect people against future coronavirus pandemics.

The research points to a number of reasons why the virus became so well adapted to humans, such as convergent evolution after exposure to human cells, rare mutations that mix two species genes, and exposure to human cells very early in the pandemic.

But how and where the SARS-CoV-2 virus adapted to become such an effective human pathogen remains a mystery that requires intensive further scientific investigation, the researchers conclude.

https://medicalxpress.com/news/2020-05-covid-mystery.html

In a side-by-side comparison of evolutionary dynamics between the 2019/2020 SARS-CoV-2 and the 2003 SARS-CoV, we were surprised to find that SARS-CoV-2 resembles SARS-CoV in the late phase of the 2003 epidemic after SARS-CoV had developed several advantageous adaptations for human transmission. Our observations suggest that by the time SARS-CoV-2 was first detected in late 2019, it was already pre-adapted to human transmission to an extent similar to late epidemic SARS-CoV. However, no precursors or branches of evolution stemming from a less human-adapted SARS-CoV-2-like virus have been detected. The sudden appearance of a highly infectious SARS-CoV-2 presents a major cause for concern that should motivate stronger international efforts to identify the source and prevent near future re-emergence.

https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.05.01.073262v1

Pistons
05-29-20, 17:26
Climate change:

There is no denying that humans have had a hand in climate change, but the question is if this was planned or not. Or just a result of water shortages around the world:

https://www.etcgroup.org/content/chinas-plan-engineer-himalayan-clouds-geoengineering-unintentional-or-otherwise

We know that lower clouds cools down the temperature, and that higher up clouds warms the temperature. This is undisputed. So guess what happens when we drain all the water away from the lower cloud layers.

Beijing4987
05-29-20, 17:33
The administrator determines what is allowed. A poster on the Thai forum was allowed a special thread: "stupid shit" for his boasting. But it migrates to other threads. Nobody knows the difference any more. Administration does. Steve Stills wrote in his song For what it's worth: "Step out of line, the man, the man he comes and takes you away".

McAdonis
05-29-20, 17:35
As for the virus itself, saying something like "scientists believe" is not a particularly compelling evidence or conclusion. Virus origination is an issue which can be established with a good amount of accuracy as I understood. It is not something which scientists "need to believe" - if they are able to investigate, they can actually trace it all the way back. We are not able to do it because the country of origin has blocked all efforts in that direction. And I will also point out that this is a fast evolving situation. Our understanding of the virus, what works and what doesn't, what it is or not, are all evolving. Till a few days ago, children were thought to be fairly safe and then they found some symptoms along the lines of Kawasaki syndrome. CDC did not think masks were super helpful and then they changed their recommendation.My understanding is the CDC asked the public not to buy N95 masks, because they were in limited supply and needed to be prioritized for medical workers who were most at risk. If science truly believed masks provided zero defense to airborne viruses, then medical workers would not have worn them either. The CDC flip-flopped on the idea of the general public wearing cloth masks. There was never a consensus reached on that subject. In fact, there is still an open debate on the efficacy of cloth masks, especially if people do not wear them properly or care for them. So the CDC might flip-flop on this again in another three months. Even if scientific consensus is reached, politicians can still override scientific recommendations if it does not adhere to their political, moral, religious viewpoints, or economic interests.


I also wonder why it is that you are more eager to find faults and shortcomings in the acceptance of science in US society while it is the rogue regime in China that is blocking an investigation which is of enormous help and interest to all humanity. Regardless of what you think of science and it's acceptance in the US society, if you see the technology or healthcare industries, the market share of US companies and the wealth generated by US based companies in these sectors has continually increased over time.I never questioned America's scientific prowess. Quite the contrary, I said that science was what made America great and hopefully science continues to make America great. The sheer number of American Nobel Prize winners in science validates this. The world's best universities are in the USA. The world's best minds continue to immigrate to USA (over a third of Nobel Prize in science winners since 2000 are immigrants). I am starting to get the impression that you believe that I am anti-American, and I suspect your opinion is partly due to me saying that the virus was not man-made. You are free to believe this. But let me also say this. My opinion that the virus is not man-made is also shared by US Joint Chiefs of Staff Chairman General Mark Milley, who has over 40 years of military service. Also my opinion could change, as new evidence is disclosed. Maybe I am just brainwashed. Maybe I am too deferential to experts.

Sirioja
05-30-20, 07:12
I suppose one good thing about Europe being so defragmented is that we won't get our egos up high enough to drive politics and the society in a facist direction. Something in which seems to be an historically appropriate turn of events in a buildup to a large war. Either cold or warm.

And when it comes to Japanese companies, sure Sony is big. But they were bigger I seem to recall. Panasonic too I believe, and their TV's are much worse than the Korean ones. Mitsubishi used to have OK cars. Now I don't see any, but they do have their bank I suppose. Canon? Are they still alive? I thought they died 15 years ago with the smartphone arrivals. Toshiba only has those sd memory cards left. The rest of the company is a balance sheet disaster. And Toyota? Well, they can automate production like none others. Still alive and well, but how well will they do in the years to come with EV cars? No one knows yet. Honda and Suzuki are both into this global merging thing that has been going on just to save face. The same can be said about French cars. All non competitive. Only Tesla and the German cars are competitive globally in my view. Everyone else aside from Toyota are copycats.What about Bugatti quality made in France? When French Peugeot cars have usually the best balance: You take 308 with 150 power, you take V40, A3, A class, 118, Golf, You take also Megane, all with 150 power, cars around 30 000 €, you go to test on Nurburgring, winner will be 308 , no other will compete in curves, Megane should be in top 3. Megane RS is the fastest in this category in Nurburgring. Same You take 508, with A4, 318, see class, all with same power, and 508 will be ahead. Best balance, best efficiency for grip, no need for quattro, 4 matic, xdrive. German cars are famous but don t mean they are all high quality or better quality, just difference of culture when German cars are built for free speed autobahns, when You will be faster on french motorways than in Germany full of works with 80 or 60 speed limits. Tesla is just impressive joke for me, if I rent a Tesla in Germany, I m pretty sure I can t drive Dusseldorf Frankfurt free speed. To succeed, I will have to drive as fast as on bicycle. Hybrid with hydrogen seem much more interesting technique for me, when electric is just a lie, first you can drive only Hollywood Boulevard, not longer, and You just move the problem, no more pollution in Hollywood, but you make a lot of pollution to build battery in poor countries and what do you do with old battery? Just a big lie, nobody tell about. I will never buy any electric car killing poor people to make rich breathing better. Same like virus killing more poor than rich. Even electric cars start very fast, but after, they are heavy and you can't really drive, they are made for snails in Switzerland.

Delta Indigo
05-30-20, 09:13
But how and where the SARS-CoV-2 virus adapted to become such an effective human pathogen remains a mystery that requires intensive further scientific investigation, the researchers conclude.

https://medicalxpress.com/news/2020-05-covid-mystery.html

In a side-by-side comparison of evolutionary dynamics between the 2019/2020 SARS-CoV-2 and the 2003 SARS-CoV, we were surprised to find that SARS-CoV-2 resembles SARS-CoV in the late phase of the 2003 epidemic after SARS-CoV had developed several advantageous adaptations for human transmission. Our observations suggest that by the time SARS-CoV-2 was first detected in late 2019, it was already pre-adapted to human transmission to an extent similar to late epidemic SARS-CoV. However, no precursors or branches of evolution stemming from a less human-adapted SARS-CoV-2-like virus have been detected. The sudden appearance of a highly infectious SARS-CoV-2 presents a major cause for concern that should motivate stronger international efforts to identify the source and prevent near future re-emergence.

https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.05.01.073262v1Yes this is a rare evolutionary development and many things are not fully understood about it. But where does it say in any of those articles that it was man made?

Viruses do occasionally evolve in an unpredictable manner, the explanation isn't that complex, the more humans intrude into previously untouched natural realms, the higher the chance of something like this happening.

We are not sure how this happened, eating exotic animals or a study of bats, but this is far from unimaginable.

All the major diseases we have today, tuberculosis and so on, came from the agrarian revolution and were passed from animals to humans.

So these articles do not contradict the scientific "consensus". Also we don't need to get to the exact source to understand a lot about the virus, there are numerous viral samples whose RNA can be sequenced as McAdonis pointed out.

If this is a biological weapon it is a very ineffective one with a shockingly low mortality rate.

McAdonis
05-30-20, 12:49
The point of this: There is a lo of work being done as we speak. To claim that the origin of virus is already settled science, "there is broad scientific consensus it is not man made" is not accurate when researchers are saying work needs to be done to investigate the origins.

"The virus's ability to bind protein on human cells was far greater than its ability to bind the same protein in bats, which argues against bats being a direct source of the human virus."

"While it has been suggested by some Chinese scientists that the COVID-19 virus might have been transmitted to humans from pangolins, currently available data does not support this idea," Professor Petrovsky says.

https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.05.01.073262v1As Delta Indigo noted, the papers you linked do not contradict the scientific consensus. The authors appear to make two assertions: (1) that bats are not the "direct source" and (2) the pangolin was not the intermediate host. This aligns with the scientific consensus of bats being the indirect source. When they write "origins", the focus of their investigation is the exact path the virus took from bats to humans and at what point this virus evolved to its current pathogenic state. Scientists are not sure whether this mutation occurred while inside an animal host or a human host.

Also your link comes from a pre-print server. Please go to their home page: https://www.biorxiv.org/content/early/recent.

There you will find a disclaimer at the top of the page "bioRxiv is receiving many new papers on coronavirus SARS-CoV-2. A reminder: these are preliminary reports that have not been peer-reviewed. They should not be regarded as conclusive, guide clinical practice / health-related behavior, or be reported in news media as established information."


"Further evidence arises from the analysis of the overall molecular structure of the virus. Here the SARS-CoV-2 backbone differs significantly from previous coronaviruses known to infect humans. Instead, the molecular structure more closely resembles viruses found in bats and pangolins. Had the virus been artificially created, the developers would have used a virus already known to infect humans and modified this in order to increase the infectivity or severity.
According to lead researcher, Dr. Kristian Andersen: By comparing the available genome sequence data for known coronavirus strains, we can firmly determine that SARS-CoV-2 originated through natural processes.

http://www.digitaljournal.com/tech-and-science/science/essential-science-coronavirus-was-not-genetically-engineered/article/569127#ixzz6NvBcSMN9

Research paper: http://dx.doi.org/10.1038/s41591-020-0820-9.
This evidence for natural evolution was supported by data on SARS-CoV-2s backbone its overall molecular structure. If someone were seeking to engineer a new coronavirus as a pathogen, they would have constructed it from the backbone of a virus known to cause illness. But the scientists found that the SARS-CoV-2 backbone differed substantially from those of already known coronaviruses and mostly resembled related viruses found in bats and pangolins.

These two features of the virus, the mutations in the RBD portion of the spike protein and its distinct backbone, rules out genetic engineering as a potential origin for SARS-CoV-2 said co-author Kristian Andersen, PhD, an associate professor of immunology and microbiology at Scripps Research.

https://news.tulane.edu/pr/study-coronavirus-pandemic-sparked-nature-not-bioengineering

McAdonis
05-30-20, 13:10
Climate change:

There is no denying that humans have had a hand in climate change, but the question is if this was planned or not. Or just a result of water shortages around the world:

https://www.etcgroup.org/content/chinas-plan-engineer-himalayan-clouds-geoengineering-unintentional-or-otherwise

We know that lower clouds cools down the temperature, and that higher up clouds warms the temperature. This is undisputed. So guess what happens when we drain all the water away from the lower cloud layers.My intent was not to talk about the climate change. It was more about politicians dismissing science. There is supposedly 97 percent consensus among scientists on global warming. In early March when there were few cases in the USA, Neil DeGrasse Tyson considered the CV-19 response to be a social experiment. During the first 3 minutes of this video, he says "The experiment is will people listen to scientists": https://youtu.be/jB4FUHHMI24.

https://thehill.com/opinion/healthcare/497533-let-science-lead-we-need-more-leaders-with-science-backgrounds

https://campaignstops.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/02/13/why-dont-americans-elect-scientists/

Sirioja
05-30-20, 14:50
What about Bugatti quality made in France? When French Peugeot cars have usually the best balance: You take 308 with 150 power, you take V40, A3, A class, 118, Golf, You take also Megane, all with 150 power, cars around 30 000 , you go to test on Nurburgring, winner will be 308 , no other will compete in curves, Megane should be in top 3. Megane RS is the fastest in this category in Nurburgring. Same You take 508, with A4, 318, see class, all with same power, and 508 will be ahead. Best balance, best efficiency for grip, no need for quattro, 4 matic, xdrive. German cars are famous but don t mean they are all high quality or better quality, just difference of culture when German cars are built for free speed autobahns, when You will be faster on french motorways than in Germany full of works with 80 or 60 speed limits. Tesla is just impressive joke for me, if I rent a Tesla in Germany, I m pretty sure I can t drive Dusseldorf Frankfurt free speed. To succeed, I will have to drive as fast as on bicycle. Hybrid with hydrogen seem much more interesting technique for me, when electric is just a lie, first you can drive only Hollywood Boulevard, not longer, and You just move the problem, no more pollution in Hollywood, but you make a lot of pollution to build battery in poor countries and what do you do with old battery? Just a big lie, nobody tell about. I will never buy any electric car killing poor people to make rich breathing better. Same like virus killing more poor than rich. Even electric cars start very fast, but after, they are heavy and you can't really drive, they are made for snails in Switzerland.Japanese Honda NSX was really interesting for perfect architecture for balance, formula 1 architecture. Mitsou lancer evo was the only one which could compete with Escort RS Cosworth before Ford killed her very fast, when Ford don t know much about European standards for car quality, even Mustang is legend from Bullit but can t compete in Europe. Nevertheless Ford improved on 2 last decades, when building some dangerous cars before. We don t drive under 60 miles in Europe, when adrenaline is trying to pass full speed, over quattro and super soft tires grip, in new curve built on new autobahn before Neuss, I think Holz. Also great curves around Ulmen Nurburgring and between Kaiserlautern and Trier where I needed more than the 2 lines to control electronic quattro on 15 March, I don t understand how it work on rear wheels, xdrive is much easier to feel grip. I miss these weekly runs, maybe more than brothels. Also great curves around, between Carinthia and Zoncolan. Wish to go to Frioul, when I starting my Summer on this week end for at least 4 months for climbing, when couldn't ski on this Winter, just killing skis on Christmas.

Pessimist
05-30-20, 15:26
Yes this is a rare evolutionary development and many things are not fully understood about it. But where does it say in any of those articles that it was man made?

Viruses do occasionally evolve in an unpredictable manner, the explanation isn't that complex, the more humans intrude into previously untouched natural realms, the higher the chance of something like this happening.

We are not sure how this happened, eating exotic animals or a study of bats, but this is far from unimaginable.

All the major diseases we have today, tuberculosis and so on, came from the agrarian revolution and were passed from animals to humans.

So these articles do not contradict the scientific "consensus". Also we don't need to get to the exact source to understand a lot about the virus, there are numerous viral samples whose RNA can be sequenced as McAdonis pointed out.

If this is a biological weapon it is a very ineffective one with a shockingly low mortality rate.I am glad you and Mr McAdonis are convinced of the existence of the scientific "consensus". Is it an article of faith? The papers I included do not say they are man made, and I did not say they do. They say work needs to be done to establish the origins of the virus. Which means the origin is still inconclusive. You say there is already a consensus Re: how it came about. But active research work is going on to investigate those origins.

It seems to me that the people claiming it is "not man made" have already made up their minds. Hence this rush to claim a scientific consensus, and an urgency to shut down alternate voices by minimizing them as "conspiracy theories with loony political motives". Be that as it may, the normal scientific process including a proper investigation by real scientists that one can trust was blocked. I am amazed that you think a consensus was formed in the absence of an independent investigation. If you truly believe in science and more importantly in scientific process, how is any conclusion and consensus formed when investigators are blocked?

As for bio weapon. The objective need not be the death toll. From the beginning I said it was to narrow the economic gap between China On one side and traditional western societies on the other, and to help perpetuate Xi atop China. That objective has been achieved to some extent.

Pistons
05-30-20, 16:01
What about Bugatti quality made in France? When French Peugeot cars have usually the best balance: You take 308 with 150 power, you take V40, A3, A class, 118, Golf, You take also Megane, all with 150 power, cars around 30 000 , you go to test on Nurburgring, winner will be 308 , no other will compete in curves, Megane should be in top 3. Megane RS is the fastest in this category in Nurburgring. Same You take 508, with A4, 318, see class, all with same power, and 508 will be ahead. Best balance, best efficiency for grip, no need for quattro, 4 matic, xdrive. German cars are famous but don t mean they are all high quality or better quality, just difference of culture when German cars are built for free speed autobahns, when You will be faster on french motorways than in Germany full of works with 80 or 60 speed limits. Tesla is just impressive joke for me, if I rent a Tesla in Germany, I m pretty sure I can t drive Dusseldorf Frankfurt free speed. To succeed, I will have to drive as fast as on bicycle. Hybrid with hydrogen seem much more interesting technique for me, when electric is just a lie, first you can drive only Hollywood Boulevard, not longer, and You just move the problem, no more pollution in Hollywood, but you make a lot of pollution to build battery in poor countries and what do you do with old battery? Just a big lie, nobody tell about. I will never buy any electric car killing poor people to make rich breathing better. Same like virus killing more poor than rich. Even electric cars start very fast, but after, they are heavy and you can't really drive, they are made for snails in Switzerland.Bugatti is Volkswagen. So it is a German company now, and has been since 1998. It doesn't matter that they band themselves as french. Same with Seat and Skoda.

Pistons
05-30-20, 17:19
My intent was not to talk about the climate change. It was more about politicians dismissing science. There is supposedly 97 percent consensus among scientists on global warming. In early March when there were few cases in the USA, Neil DeGrasse Tyson considered the CV-19 response to be a social experiment. During the first 3 minutes of this video, he says "The experiment is will people listen to scientists": https://youtu.be/jB4FUHHMI24.

https://thehill.com/opinion/healthcare/497533-let-science-lead-we-need-more-leaders-with-science-backgrounds

https://campaignstops.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/02/13/why-dont-americans-elect-scientists/But if you read my post again, I don't say there is no human made global warming. I just say cloud seeding is the reason for it. Not co2.

I have read too many papers on this to count, and all the co2 gang does is to pull up parallel charts. The same way Erasmus Montanus compares his mom to a stone. Since they both cannot fly. They must be the same!

But the only thing that has been tested with proof and shows warming effects are clouds!

The main reason for the CO2 being demonized are peak oil. Since we are about to run out of the cheap to extract resource. Thus we have to tax it in order to diversify our energy mix. It is a long term safety strategy. Just like the CCP safety tactics in order to hide the corona virus.

Sirioja
05-30-20, 17:53
Bugatti is Volkswagen. So it is a German company now, and has been since 1998. It doesn't matter that they band themselves as french. Same with Seat and Skoda.Bugatti are built in France, Germans don't have this level of skill at home, despite Porsche and Maybach, but all made with men hands, no robots. I prefer Audi now because most solid engines to prepare and best quality and I can put skis and bicycle, I can t in little frog 911 , but for cars until A3, A class, BM1 , Golf, category, french cars can compete with better balance and grip. BMW losing soul and history, coming to front wheel driving for BM1, for more safety. You go to Germany when snowing, even with winter tires, BMW and Mercedes are stopped on autobahn when You can drive 100 with super soft tires if You think a bit Finnish and are ready to slide a bit. This is German cars, look at clio, megane, 208,308, 508,3008, going on snow, even without winter tires, we don t have to put winter tires in France, I go to Val Thorens 2300 meters high with super soft tires made to perform on Nurburgring.

McAdonis
05-30-20, 20:34
Cross-posting from Berlin thread. French language article, so someone should verify translation but I believe WG in France infected 13 men, who then went on to infect their families. Wonder if this might influence decisions to reopen:

https://m.lematin.ch/articles/31932243

Pistons
05-30-20, 21:10
They are stopped on autobahn, thus they must be worse at drifting while running at 100? OK.

Sirioja
05-30-20, 21:38
My intent was not to talk about the climate change. It was more about politicians dismissing science. There is supposedly 97 percent consensus among scientists on global warming. In early March when there were few cases in the USA, Neil DeGrasse Tyson considered the CV-19 response to be a social experiment. During the first 3 minutes of this video, he says "The experiment is will people listen to scientists": https://youtu.be/jB4FUHHMI24.

https://thehill.com/opinion/healthcare/497533-let-science-lead-we-need-more-leaders-with-science-backgrounds

https://campaignstops.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/02/13/why-dont-americans-elect-scientists/Covid is a killer, but climate crisis will kill much more, with more and more storms, Bangladesh will become new Atlantis, real white bears, not old fat in brothels, will kill more and more when they won t have anymore and soon home on ice disappearing. When US and China don't care about pollution, 2 big murderers, I cry every winter when I see my beloved mountains, Alpe Huez glacier 3200 meters high is dying, Grande Motte Tignes glacier 3500 meters received 15 meters snow falling on Winter 20 years ago, now they are happy when they have 5 meters on whole Winter, I remember when I was a child at ski, having 50 cm snow falling in the night, now when we have 15 cm fresh snow, this is Christmas, lets go free riding, taking risks with rocks just hidden by 10 cm, kicking in. Sad planet humans are killing. Nevertheless, even too late for ski, but was so happy man today starting my Summer tour for 4 months ln this Summer. Since November, after 3 first kilometers to train heart and put it in rhythm, I was impressed by level in legendary la Madeleine. I want to make my Summer great enjoyable, when I had no Winter because of fucking killer virus, but they also send us and to our children, consequences from their heavy pollution. Our children are more and more fat and diabetic from US foods and with asthma from pollution. Not so healthy to fight and fuck virus.

Pessimist
05-31-20, 00:24
As Delta Indigo noted, the papers you linked do not contradict the scientific consensus.

Also your link comes from a pre-print server..Your assumption is that there is a pre-existing scientific consensus and the burden is on the people to disprove it otherwise the consensus stands.

Are there are any studies which are not pre-print but peer reviewed and accepted by majority / most of virologists and epidemiologists that traces the exact path of the virus from whatever is the original source to humans, and importantly do such studies conclusively prove that no Wuhan lab was ever involved?

If so, please do provide such links.

It would also be useful to know what is your definition of consensus, and who are part of this consensus that you have referenced many times. Please also state what is the exact wording of this consensus when was this consensus formed. Thank you, much appreciated.

Sirioja
05-31-20, 08:40
Cross-posting from Berlin thread. French language article, so someone should verify translation but I believe WG in France infected 13 men, who then went on to infect their families. Wonder if this might influence decisions to reopen:

https://m.lematin.ch/articles/31932243This was written on 23 March, took place not far from Leman lake and Geneva, 2 Colombian prostitutes, the one 36 yo infected had clients who can be and bring back at home, same like what could happen in brothels, one infected with no symptom, no fever, infect a healthy girl also with no symptom so she doesn't know, a superstar who makes 10 clients in her day, but most not so healthy, some return to wife at home who has diabetes or breast cancer, some go to another club on next day or next week, and then try to calculate running R0. I don t know when brothels will reopen but I m sure really impossible to prevent virus from coming to brothels, even with Europe closed borders, even with quarantine for UK as they do, but even virus is now very slow in Western Europe, but still killing few, despite Summer heat, protection used now in Europe, and what will happen on Autumn when will be 10 degrees? I think nobody know, but better to be aware brothels are risky playfield and not only for this virus, reason why hygiene is so important for me and why I tell when girls don t even have to take shower, when a previous client came on her body, or after going to toilets and You need to wait to make come wet not to taste bitter.

Sirioja
05-31-20, 09:12
They are stopped on autobahn, thus they must be worse at drifting while running at 100? OK.Now most of German cars are more than 1500 kg, many more than 1700/1800 kgs, full of electronics. Why are they stopped driving 20 km / h their Mercedes or BMW on snow on autobahn? Just because they are scared by their car balance, when french cars are so easy and safe for grip even on snow, even without Winter tires. A clio would make ridiculous any Mercedes or BM or even Porsche on snow. With so heavy and full of electronic, just try to dream about drift. Because I found xdrive improved BMW balance with still around 60% power on rear wheels, but what a mistake I made taking quattro as I tell Audi. Maybe worth for trucks Q7, Q5, but really not sporty and I don t understand how it work on rear wheels when maybe 75% on front wheels, but really bad feeling about rear wheels, if I could and I asked Audi France how to put off, impossible unfortunately and they tell me: what You do with your car? Same like when I tell them I have to correct quattro reactions but real exhausting sport, braking with left foot and always right on accelerator, same position than in karting, to try to correct without losing time to move feet. More efficient when You want to be fast, just race technique like kicking in brakes to shorten distance. If You want to drift, easier to put off electronic and no 4 wheels drive, rare like pandas in Germany, maybe trabant.

TeaInTheSun
05-31-20, 11:57
Cross-posting from Berlin thread. French language article, so someone should verify translation but I believe WG in France infected 13 men, who then went on to infect their families. Wonder if this might influence decisions to reopen:

https://m.lematin.ch/articles/31932243For this reason, I do not understand how there can be mongers who count the days, such as prisoners who cross out the days on the wall they need to leave, to find the door opened of FKK if there is a high percentage of infecting you and then infecting your relatives with covid. If you are over 60 years old, think that it may be the last time you are with a girl who will jerk you off with gloves. What a pathetic ending for a monger! Think in another hobby until at least next year.

BigBuddy69
05-31-20, 12:31
To be precise, the girl has all the symptoms of covid 19 and had 13 customers, but the paper doesn't say if they were infected.

McAdonis
05-31-20, 15:10
Your assumption is that there is a pre-existing scientific consensus and the burden is on the people to disprove it otherwise the consensus stands.

Are there are any studies which are not pre-print but peer reviewed and accepted by majority / most of virologists and epidemiologists that traces the exact path of the virus from whatever is the original source to humans, and importantly do such studies conclusively prove that no Wuhan lab was ever involved?
You are correct in that we should not be using the term "scientific consensus" loosely. This could takes decades to establish. Nevertheless, this was the verbiage used in the Director of National Intelligence statement issued on April 30 which stated the virus "was not manmade or genetically modified".

Scientists' primary reasons for casting doubt on the "man-made" conspiracy theory are as follows: (1) manipulation leaves evidence that other virologists can detect. (2) virologists are not clever enough to construct a coronavirus that is harmful to humans unless they use one of the six other coronaviruses known to be harmful to humans as a template. SARS-CoV-2 only has an 80 percent resemblance to SARS-CoV-1 that triggered the outbreak in 2003.

As stated before scientists do not know the origins (zoonotic path it took to infect humans). But a peer-reviewed paper, which I will repost the link to states "Our analyses clearly show that SARS-CoV-2 is not a laboratory construct or a purposefully manipulated virus". This paper has been cited 114 times. https://www.nature.com/articles/s41591-020-0820-9.

Preprint allows authors to get feedback. Some Indian researchers posted a paper to bioRxiv, suggesting similarities between SARS-CoV-2 and HIV. "A stream of comments on Twitter and bioRxiv soon followed, questioning the methodology and conclusions, and the paper was withdrawn": https://www.timeshighereducation.com/opinion/covid-19-outbreak-highlights-potential-preprints#survey-answer.

Both CCP and POTUS seem to want to make "factual claims" without evidence. Politicians are conmen. My point is the scientific evidence has absolved CCP from genetically manipulation. But that doesn't mean that CCP is completely innocent. Perhaps the Wuhan scientists were studying a naturally-occurring virus that they knew to be harmful to humans and did not disclose this to the world. Perhaps the outbreak was accidental. And perhaps they "deliberately" waited two extra days before locking down Wuhan, in hopes that the virus would spread enough to inflict damage to other nations. That still neatly fits into the POTUS' narrative of CCP weaponising the virus.

Pistons
05-31-20, 15:58
Your assumption is that there is a pre-existing scientific consensus and the burden is on the people to disprove it otherwise the consensus stands.

Are there are any studies which are not pre-print but peer reviewed and accepted by majority / most of virologists and epidemiologists that traces the exact path of the virus from whatever is the original source to humans, and importantly do such studies conclusively prove that no Wuhan lab was ever involved?

If so, please do provide such links.

It would also be useful to know what is your definition of consensus, and who are part of this consensus that you have referenced many times. Please also state what is the exact wording of this consensus when was this consensus formed. Thank you, much appreciated.This is part of what I like to call communication strategy. You will never find what you are asking for, because it does not exist. The same can be said for many types of scientific consensuses. Peer reviews when found, are always riddled with holes. When I wrote my master thesis, I was even told by my professor to cut down on the criticism, because it was twice the size of the rest of my paper. And I wrote the same length of criticism for another thesis I read. There is a consensus I was told that it is not normal to write all possible criticism down. Since then there would be nothing left.

And this thing about 'scientific consensus' is a framing word to imply above and below rethorics (can't recall the English term), so that no one who is lacking a professor degree will dare to object. Usually these types of strategies are paid for through a communication bureau.

Pistons
05-31-20, 16:02
The way you can that this is how it works, is when you read articles about the various topics, and everything is rethorics. While there is zero scientific hard evidence involved in the article itself. In other words, paid propaganda.

And when do people pay for propaganda. Well according to two renowned owners of big pr bureaus I know: 'only when there is something to hide. If there is nothing to hide, they just assume there is no reason to pay for the PR'.

Tuber19
05-31-20, 20:49
same like what could happen in brothels, one infected with no symptom, no fever, infect a healthy girl also with no symptom so she doesn't know, a superstar who makes 10 clients in her day, but most not so healthy, some return to wife at home who has diabetes or breast cancer, some go to another club on next day or next week, and then try to calculate running R0. .In that case, and knowing a vaccine will take a year at least, we have 2 options, close for everyone OR close for riskier people and open for less risky, there are very high evidence that most healthy people under 65 years old will have very mild sympetmes or no symptoms at all, so I think Sweden got it right, and I think FKK should allow people under 65 to enter the club until there is a vaccine.

I know this will not happen, but I think dealing with the virus with one strategy for ALL ages is non sense.

Pessimist
05-31-20, 22:50
You are correct in that we should not be using the term "scientific consensus" loosely. This could takes decades to establish. Nevertheless, this was the verbiage used in the Director of National Intelligence statement issued on April 30 which stated the virus "was not manmade or genetically modified".

Scientists' primary reasons for casting doubt on the "man-made" conspiracy theory are as follows: (1) manipulation leaves evidence that other virologists can detect. (2) virologists are not clever enough to construct a coronavirus that is harmful to humans unless they use one of the six other coronaviruses known to be harmful to humans as a template. SARS-CoV-2 only has an 80 percent resemblance to SARS-CoV-1 that triggered the outbreak in 2003.

As stated before scientists do not know the origins (zoonotic path it took to infect humans). But a peer-reviewed paper, which I will repost the link to states "Our analyses clearly show that SARS-CoV-2 is not a laboratory construct or a purposefully manipulated virus". This paper has been cited 114 times. https://www.nature.com/articles/s41591-020-0820-9..First of all, thank you for the kind reply. Very helpful.

"we should not be using the term "scientific consensus" loosely" : glad you feel that way. I quite agree with you.

"verbiage used in the Director of National Intelligence" : Question: Is Director of National Intelligence the gold standard in your view? Are they supposed to be the most objective, scientifically oriented organization, the standard setting body so to speak? Obviously, if they are, then we should follow their lead. I was not aware that they are considered to be such gold standard.

"Scientists' primary reasons for casting doubt. " : I am curious if this is *all* the scientists, some scientists, most of the scientists. Any quantification would be helpful. For example, 99.9% of the scientists, or some such percent. Would that be virologists, epidemiologists, bio statisticians, all of them? US / China / EU / India / Japan /. ? I hope this reference to scientists is not a euphemism for the "consensus" which I think you now believe to be "loosely used".

"scientists do not know the origins" - I have the same question as above, I. E. Who are the scientists in this reference. I personally believe there are investigations going on at the moment and it is too early to say anything conclusive. I keep scratching my head why some scientists are still doing investigations if this is such a settled question -- for example, no one is investigating that earth goes around the sun. That to a lay person like me would be settled science.

"The proximal origin of SARS-CoV-2" - thank you for the link. The date of this paper is March 17,2020. Is this the most authoritative paper in your view? Yes, it has 114 citations but it is tough to place in context, given that it is a Nature paper, it was from mid March and research intensity related to Corona has increased since west is now being impacted much more. Any future work after mid March would naturally cite a paper from Nature, given that this is a new topic which is of interest to many scientists working to solve this problem all over the world.

The paper says the following "It is improbable that SARS-CoV-2 emerged through laboratory manipulation of a related SARS-CoV-like coronavirus" - they do not say what this probability is supposed to be. The further say "since we observed all notable SARS-CoV-2 features, including the optimized RBD and polybasic cleavage site, in related coronaviruses in nature, we do not believe that any type of laboratory-based scenario is plausible" - again, they are not able to definitively say a lab is not involved. Finally, they conclude with "More scientific data could swing the balance of evidence to favor one hypothesis over another". Their entire theme is that based on the evidence and data they currently have access to, they have made some probabilistic estimates, but just that -- probabilistic and estimate, about a novel virus.

"My point is the scientific evidence has absolved CCP from genetically manipulation" -- it has? I would love to see any link to this particular claim. Would that be the aforementioned consensus? Or is it the probabilistic estimate in the one Nature paper, whose authors do not have access to the source info and which they make a clear note of ("Obtaining related viral sequences from animal sources would be the most definitive way of revealing viral origins".

Absolved is a very definitive claim. "Scientific evidence has absolved" is an even bigger claim. It would be lovely to see your links to the resources in which such a claim can be verified. For lay men like me who are not at the obvious high level of scientific learning as others, it would be even better if this absolution is presented in black and white.

Thank you again for your very helpful answer.

Sirioja
05-31-20, 22:51
This was written on 23 March, took place not far from Leman lake and Geneva, 2 Colombian prostitutes, the one 36 yo infected had clients who can be and bring back at home, same like what could happen in brothels, one infected with no symptom, no fever, infect a healthy girl also with no symptom so she doesn't know, a superstar who makes 10 clients in her day, but most not so healthy, some return to wife at home who has diabetes or breast cancer, some go to another club on next day or next week, and then try to calculate running R0. I don t know when brothels will reopen but I m sure really impossible to prevent virus from coming to brothels, even with Europe closed borders, even with quarantine for UK as they do, but even virus is now very slow in Western Europe, but still killing few, despite Summer heat, protection used now in Europe, and what will happen on Autumn when will be 10 degrees? I think nobody know, but better to be aware brothels are risky playfield and not only for this virus, reason why hygiene is so important for me and why I tell when girls don t even have to take shower, when a previous client came on her body, or after going to toilets and You need to wait to make come wet not to taste bitter.I think she should be prosecuted, not for prostitution which is legal in France, but because she kept on working when infected. France should cure her and next plane to Bogota. Remind me a crazy guy, I think to remember UK, who wanted to infect others with HIV he got, or US images a french journalist took about people threatening coughing in face other people.

Sirioja
05-31-20, 23:08
In that case, and knowing a vaccine will take a year at least, we have 2 options, close for everyone OR close for riskier people and open for less risky, there are very high evidence that most healthy people under 65 years old will have very mild sympetmes or no symptoms at all, so I think Sweden got it right, and I think FKK should allow people under 65 to enter the club until there is a vaccine.

I know this will not happen, but I think dealing with the virus with one strategy for ALL ages is non sense.Sweden have the worst capital under virus, competing with down under NYC, but I agree when in France more than 90% of our too many deaths are more than 65 yo, but obese, diabetic, with cancer treatment, lungs and heart problems are also in danger and also for relatives around you, but some guys go for AO and return to wife after. Each one play own risk, but I think Germany is thinking about R0 when they have so many brothels and prostitutes from many origins. New law didn't work efficient except for registration.

Polyamorist
06-01-20, 02:42
As if the news wasn't bad enough already, a band of "highly intelligent" rhesus monkeys has attacked a medical center in Delhi and escaped with a batch of coronavirus blood test samples. It is not clear yet whether their scientists will be able to create an even deadlier strain, but they are a species known to have many grievances and I wouldn't rule out urban rioting or further acts of bioterrorism in the future.

https://news.sky.com/story/coronavirus-monkeys-escape-with-covid-19-samples-after-attacking-lab-assistant-11996752

(Like most primates, rhesus monkeys are polyamorous. If they were to take over, there would be a lot less hang-ups in society. In any conflict I would find my loyalties divided. But it is in the nature of polyamory to divide loyalties anyway.)

Sirioja
06-01-20, 10:42
For this reason, I do not understand how there can be mongers who count the days, such as prisoners who cross out the days on the wall they need to leave, to find the door opened of FKK if there is a high percentage of infecting you and then infecting your relatives with covid. If you are over 60 years old, think that it may be the last time you are with a girl who will jerk you off with gloves. What a pathetic ending for a monger! Think in another hobby until at least next year.Funny when I read US telling they are in sex prison in a so huge country 15 times larger than my small beloved France, I think only Texas may be larger than France. In Miami had no problem but it was on 1997 and 1999, maybe change now, to find a pretty Puerto Rican but blond with long hair and big shinning smile, prettier than Americans I saw, she was not escorting but kind of part timer when she needed money. In Vegas, found kind of club in downtown, when I didn't follow on strip when I was proposed but couldn't see the girl, only a paper with number, but I enjoyed to walk the whole strip from Circus and back, before going to downtown, it was 2007 . Also found a small club in San Francisco close to a very climby short street, not California nor the one with many curves I woke up at 4.30 am to go to climb because direction is only downhill. Great police stopping all cars in crossings when I was climbing California, but worst was to go down, blocking brakes, impossible to stop, so police stopping again cars. I paid 200 USD and we stayed nearly 1 hour with this cute small brunette, really sweet nearly passionate, I remember she was surprised by foreplay for sure she never experienced and then she let go, but find more impressive Romanian looks in brothels for 100/60. But in 2008, could still find and also Canada where women are prettier than Americans is closer than Europe, found kind of escort in Quebec, quite pretty on 2012 but so talkative, she spoke french, speaking during foreplay and sex and I didn't understand what she said, so had to concentrate to try to understand, making her repeating, it was not so sensual but funny sex. Also Mexico but I m not really into Latina types, but I'm sure not so difficult to find plenty of poor girls needing money. Same like Romanians from Western Europeans.

Anyway, when Switzerland is first after our bois de Boulogne to reopen risky playfield on 6 June like one of the most beautiful club I know, Freubad where I had a exceptional discovery of the club and 2 extreme GFE rooms with Anna. Ro on her second day, not speaking German nor English, but we really didn t need and her friend and desk understood, on last 1 August, as I told to desk: You are better than Globe, now they welcome me and propose me flexible package how I like, when my discovery cost 269 CHF, around 250 € with 2 rooms with a rare girl, really just fallen from the truck driven by her friend who seemed surprised I chose the newbie who couldn't speak, but a virgin fresh beauty versus a prostitute, even she was lovely. Nevertheless, better to be aware about risks and for relatives like wife, old mother. Quite impossible no virus in brothels, even when only Swiss until 15 June. So they delayed Globe opening to 19, because not enough girls and Swiss are not enough for business. But no need to rush, first I won t pay for mask sex, and I was so happy for my 2 first climbing days in my beloved mountains. When I arrived on Friday, I felt in my home land, I was so frustrated not to ski, I needed to go to walk with bicycle shoes in snow, I just felt good, when I remember some girls telling: this is not a place for you, at LR, GT, World, Sharks and Globe, not only once, one at LR proposed me to make appointment when and how long I wanted and then I could not stay in club, I know she tried her best to propose me, but as I told to Kate: appointment mean prostitution, where is desire? But wonderful France is for sure a place for me when my mother made me as a beauty lover, and I love so much our so beautiful mountains, when some may prefer our 3 big seas and little one Leman. Even I was quite impressed by performance after virus and 6 months without intensive sport, only killing skis on rocks for Christmas and giving up after 2 days, no interest to ski like this, but most important was to feel real freedom, no mask in mountains, and also great feeling on bicycle even more important than interesting climbing times. When I m sure I gave much more than 100 000 € in 7 years to Romania, if I go one day, I expect they will close Transfagarasan for me, to make a run as I told this is my only reason to go, to Megan, to compare with exceptionnal Prato Stelvio, when no need to go to Brasov to ski. What runs in la Madeleine or Cormet Roseland, motorbikes didn't insist, when over 160 in some lines, need left foot on brake to kick in, but less impressive than going downhill 70 km / h with very narrow tires bicycle, even more impressive than running 100 km / h on skis and so much more impressive than 250 on autobahns, so great fun in mountains and improving health and mood. So after working and paying tax under virus, I decided I will try to go on holidays every week end until end of my season in Mont Ventoux on end of September, in my wonderful country, of course I won't go to Negresco, I prefer to work and listen to my music: Californian Toto, legendary Led Zepellin, Neil Young, black heroe Jimi Hendrix, real musicians, US were the best for this, even falling down to Eminen now. Of course I want to go to Dolomiti for Giro legends, have to tell about 28% Gentille Bora leader in mountain Formolo, he will tell me: You are really crazy, this is just so hard intense to kill body, but I want to climb, just to push limits, to make sure, when over 50, but still have power for, when probably no professionnal will never do because may be too dangerous for their body when they didn't want to climb Zoncolan for years, so of course easy with girls after and really no need for viagra to be firm belly, ass and more. Sport give health and performance in bed. Many pleasures, just have to be able to make them in our life, and I want my great enjoyable 4 months Summer when I didn't have my Winter pleasure. I will work for this, before ski for Christmas wishing for snow.

McAdonis
06-01-20, 11:52
"The proximal origin of SARS-CoV-2" - thank you for the link. The date of this paper is March 17,2020. Is this the most authoritative paper in your view? Yes, it has 114 citations but it is tough to place in context, given that it is a Nature paper, it was from mid March and research intensity related to Corona has increased since west is now being impacted much more. Any future work after mid March would naturally cite a paper from Nature, given that this is a new topic which is of interest to many scientists working to solve this problem all over the world.Definition of science from Cambridge dictionary: "the systematic study of the structure and behavior of the natural and physical world". This is a list of some of the most influential scientific journals (spoiler: Nature is in that list). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_scientific_journals.

"The IC is headed by the Director of National Intelligence (DNI), whose statutory leadership is exercised through the Office of the Director of National Intelligence (ODNI)". The IC has 17 members (including CIA and NSA). Fauci has been director of National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases since 1984. Both qualify as experts in their related fields and both do not believe SARS-CoV-2 is manmade: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Intelligence_Community.

Science never speaks in absolutes. It is always about ever-increasing probabilities. To a scientist, there is never 100 percent certainty, hence it is not possible to prove anything, but only accept or reject ideas based on existing evidence. That means you can continue to gather evidence until infinity, and a scientist would still qualify their statement with "Based on existing evidence. " So while, no scientist will ever claim that the theory of evolution is 100 percent accurate, the debates have for all intents and purposes stopped within the scientific community. Instead the focus of scientists have shifted and the fierce debates now exist elsewhere. For instance, the theory that life evolved from single-cell organisms to humans is widely accepted. But there are fierce debates over the origins of the the first animal sponge. In other words, the path from single celled organisms to the sponge. Similarly, the theory that the virus was genetically modified is no longer the subject of investigation, but rather the zoonotic path of the virus. Determining the zoonotic path requires scientists to "obtain viral sequences from animal sources". The "Nature" paper has been around over 60 days. The authors of scientific papers want their work to be scrutinized. If there are scientists that question their methodologies and conclusions, I am not aware of them. https://www.quantamagazine.org/scientists-debate-the-origin-of-cell-types-in-the-first-animals-20190717/.

Finally, I prefer to defer to the experts once more. This time to another field, the "pseudoscience" of psychology. Here is the definition for the backfire effect: "When someone tries to correct you, tries to dilute your misconceptions, it backfires and strengthens them instead. " So if anyone is still reading, I think they realize that we are both entrenched. No side will be convinced here, so it is pointless to continue. The only thing "proven" thus far is that we both have too much time on our hands. I do not have any hard feelings over anything written. Look forward to your input on other topics in future, but five or six back-and-forths on a single topic is enough for me.

Pistons
06-01-20, 23:31
As if the news wasn't bad enough already, a band of "highly intelligent" rhesus monkeys has attacked a medical center in Delhi and escaped with a batch of coronavirus blood test samples. It is not clear yet whether their scientists will be able to create an even deadlier strain, but they are a species known to have many grievances and I wouldn't rule out urban rioting or further acts of bioterrorism in the future.

https://news.sky.com/story/coronavirus-monkeys-escape-with-covid-19-samples-after-attacking-lab-assistant-11996752

(Like most primates, rhesus monkeys are polyamorous. If they were to take over, there would be a lot less hang-ups in society. In any conflict I would find my loyalties divided. But it is in the nature of polyamory to divide loyalties anyway.)Do you think this is fake news just to play a pun on the US or HK rioting? I wouldn't bet against it given the timing. LOL. Dibs for originality though. At first I thought it was a TheOnion article before checking.

Turgid
06-01-20, 23:56
............ and I think FKK should allow people under 65 to enter the club until there is a vaccine............Hahaha, do you think that there are establishments, especially sex clubs, that would willingly reduce their profits by 50%.

Polyamorist
06-02-20, 02:35
https://news.sky.com/story/coronavirus-monkeys-escape-with-covid-19-samples-after-attacking-lab-assistant-11996752
Do you think this is fake news just to play a pun on the US or HK rioting? I wouldn't bet against it given the timing. LOL. Dibs for originality though. At first I thought it was a TheOnion article before checking.Well when I first read it, I wasn't sure if they were plagiarizing '28 Days Later' or 'Rise of the Planet of the Apes'. But monkeys are a serious part of Indian life. They are considered sacred, like cows. When lockdown happened, monkeys took over the deserted streets.

TeaInTheSun
06-02-20, 10:39
Funny when I read US telling they are in sex prison in a so huge country 15 times larger than my small beloved France, I think only Texas may be larger than France. In Miami had no problem but it was on 1997 and 1999, maybe change now, to find a pretty Puerto Rican but blond with long hair and big shinning smile, prettier than Americans I saw, she was not escorting but kind of part timer when she needed money. In Vegas, found kind of club in downtown, when I didn't follow on strip when I was proposed but couldn't see the girl, only a paper with number, but I enjoyed to walk the whole strip from Circus and back, before going to downtown, it was 2007 . Also found a small club in San Francisco close to a very climby short street, not California nor the one with many curves I woke up at 4.30 am to go to climb because direction is only downhill. Great police stopping all cars in crossings when I was climbing California, but worst was to go down, blocking brakes, impossible to stop, so police stopping again cars. I paid 200 USD and we stayed nearly 1 hour with this cute small brunette, really sweet nearly passionate, I remember she was surprised by foreplay for sure she never experienced and then she let go, but find more impressive Romanian looks in brothels for 100/60. But in 2008, could still find and also Canada where women are prettier than Americans is closer than Europe, found kind of escort in Quebec, quite pretty on 2012 but so talkative, she spoke french, speaking during foreplay and sex and I didn't understand what she said, so had to concentrate to try to understand, making her repeating, it was not so sensual but funny sex. Also Mexico but I m not really into Latina types, but I'm sure not so difficult to find plenty of poor girls needing money. Same like Romanians from Western Europeans.

Anyway, when Switzerland is first after our bois de Boulogne to reopen risky playfield on 6 June like one of the most beautiful club I know, Freubad where I had a exceptional discovery of the club and 2 extreme GFE rooms with Anna. Ro on her second day, not speaking German nor English, but we really didn t need and her friend and desk understood, on last 1 August, as I told to desk: You are better than Globe, now they welcome me and propose me flexible package how I like, when my discovery cost 269 CHF, around 250 with 2 rooms with a rare girl, really just fallen from the truck driven by her friend who seemed surprised I chose the newbie who couldn't speak, but a virgin fresh beauty versus a prostitute, even she was lovely. Nevertheless, better to be aware about risks and for relatives like wife, old mother. Quite impossible no virus in brothels, even when only Swiss until 15 June. So they delayed Globe opening to 19, because not enough girls and Swiss are not enough for business. But no need to rush, first I won t pay for mask sex, and I was so happy for my 2 first climbing days in my beloved mountains. When I arrived on Friday, I felt in my home land, I was so frustrated not to ski, I needed to go to walk with bicycle shoes in snow, I just felt good, when I remember some girls telling: this is not a place for you, at LR, GT, World, Sharks and Globe, not only once, one at LR proposed me to make appointment when and how long I wanted and then I could not stay in club, I know she tried her best to propose me, but as I told to Kate: appointment mean prostitution, where is desire? But wonderful France is for sure a place for me when my mother made me as a beauty lover, and I love so much our so beautiful mountains, when some may prefer our 3 big seas and little one Leman. Even I was quite impressed by performance after virus and 6 months without intensive sport, only killing skis on rocks for Christmas and giving up after 2 days, no interest to ski like this, but most important was to feel real freedom, no mask in mountains, and also great feeling on bicycle even more important than interesting climbing times. When I m sure I gave much more than 100 000 in 7 years to Romania, if I go one day, I expect they will close Transfagarasan for me, to make a run as I told this is my only reason to go, to Megan, to compare with exceptionnal Prato Stelvio, when no need to go to Brasov to ski. What runs in la Madeleine or Cormet Roseland, motorbikes didn't insist, when over 160 in some lines, need left foot on brake to kick in, but less impressive than going downhill 70 km / h with very narrow tires bicycle, even more impressive than running 100 km / h on skis and so much more impressive than 250 on autobahns, so great fun in mountains and improving health and mood. So after working and paying tax under virus, I decided I will try to go on holidays every week end until end of my season in Mont Ventoux on end of September, in my wonderful country, of course I won't go to Negresco, I prefer to work and listen to my music: Californian Toto, legendary Led Zepellin, Neil Young, black heroe Jimi Hendrix, real musicians, US were the best for this, even falling down to Eminen now. Of course I want to go to Dolomiti for Giro legends, have to tell about 28% Gentille Bora leader in mountain Formolo, he will tell me: You are really crazy, this is just so hard intense to kill body, but I want to climb, just to push limits, to make sure, when over 50, but still have power for, when probably no professionnal will never do because may be too dangerous for their body when they didn't want to climb Zoncolan for years, so of course easy with girls after and really no need for viagra to be firm belly, ass and more. Sport give health and performance in bed. Many pleasures, just have to be able to make them in our life, and I want my great enjoyable 4 months Summer when I didn't have my Winter pleasure. I will work for this, before ski for Christmas wishing for snow.Hey Siri, you are quite a character! In my case, all my marathons were cancelled for this year. I will try biking, even liking the competition more.

Pessimist
06-02-20, 17:14
(erudite definition of science deleted)

"The IC is headed by the Director of National Intelligence (DNI), whose statutory leadership is exercised through the Office of the Director of National Intelligence (ODNI)". The IC has 17 members (including CIA and NSA). Fauci has been

(Dr Fauci's title and his pedigree were kindly provided although easily available on the internet; deleted here for the purpose of brevity)

(more pedantic and erudite definitions on science deleted; the kindness is very much appreciated however)

Finally, I prefer to defer to the experts once more....

I think they realize that we are both entrenched. .Dr. Fauci is a part of US president's covid task force. It also has Dr. Birx, Seema Verma, Surgeon General Adams, health secretary Azar. CDC head Dr Redfield also advises POTUS. I realize some people may not have much regard for this country or our experts and task force and would much rather listen to WHO and their Chinese bosses, but this covid task force are the highest council in the land on this matter, and the POTUS speaks on their behalf and on behalf of US government. Foreigners may not not understand this, but that is how it has worked in the US.

Deferring to the experts is a good idea, but apparently some people pick and choose the experts that agree with their preconceived views. One example would be using one Nature paper and ignoring other teams around the world which are working on further investigations, or even further, picking the parts of the Nature paper itself that is confirmatory of one's views.

I am glad you can enunciate my view as entrenched. As far as I know, the investigation is not complete. I know for a fact that the investigation was blocked by a totalitarian regime depriving of critical data; I also understand several other investigations are still going on. As such, I don't have any view on the origins of the virus, and as you say "I listen to the experts" and wait for their verdict. I however can understand some other erudite acolytes of science have made up their mind based on the portions of papers they referenced in some journals. I just do not have such talent for jumping so quickly to assess scientific consensus, I feel like it is just loose talk.

Thank you, it was a most interesting discussion. Have a good day and happy mongering.

Pessimist
06-02-20, 18:46
In that case, and knowing a vaccine will take a year at least, we have 2 options, close for everyone OR close for riskier people and open for less risky, there are very high evidence that most healthy people under 65 years old will have very mild sympetmes or no symptoms at all, so I think Sweden got it right, and I think FKK should allow people under 65 to enter the club until there is a vaccine.

I know this will not happen, but I think dealing with the virus with one strategy for ALL ages is non sense.My view on such matters, which is identical to the stance I took when I had a disagreement with Gino back in Jan and Feb (he was advocating that clubs should deny admission to all people with an Asian look), is that entry guidelines to public places and events should be provided and drafted by the government. If 65 year olds need to be protected, quarantined or denied entry and kept at home, such matters are up to regulators and government. I think it is a slippery slope for FKKs and restaurants and other commercial establishments to start making up their own rule books, each different from the other.

Sirioja
06-02-20, 21:14
Do you think this is fake news just to play a pun on the US or HK rioting? I wouldn't bet against it given the timing. LOL. Dibs for originality though. At first I thought it was a TheOnion article before checking.Over killer virus, crazy chloroquine Trump has now to hide underground in White House, rather than going to speak to many millions black people in his country.

Sirioja
06-02-20, 21:32
Hey Siri, you are quite a character! In my case, all my marathons were cancelled for this year. I will try biking, even liking the competition more.I don't see many bodies, not about girls, to run marathon standard, 2 h45, far behind Ethiopians and Kenyans, in brothels. I was so frustrated for no ski, a real miss for me, like missing drug, when not missing so much brothels, I think I m a bit bored of prostitute behavior, lies, gossiping, I wish I could be blind except for beauty and deaf in brothels, but I was so happy and my eyes smiled so much on last week end, seeing beautiful mountains, even too late for ski, but starting very early my climbing, so on this Summer, I will have 4 months in wonderful France and I wish for splendid Dolomiti, with money made from my job. Just normal and I m quite good to build my pleasures.

Tuber19
06-03-20, 00:20
. If 65 year olds need to be protected, quarantined or denied entry and kept at home, such matters are up to regulators and government. I think it is a slippery slope for FKKs and restaurants and other commercial establishments to start making up their own rule books, each different from the other.I agree, and that's what I meant, I know its not for FKK to make that decision, and even if its up to them, they will allow everyone because they care about money in the first place.

Polyamorist
06-03-20, 13:24
In this bipolar world, we increasingly need a stronger Europe. I find the work life balance they have achieved more attractive than what I find in the US with its never ending treadmill. But if anything, Europe has continuously lost ground since 2009 and the gap between US to Europe or China to Europe has gone against Europe in 12 years. If I could make my pay check in the US and spend it in Europe, that would be a most attractive life, that's what I want. I bet a lot of American men would take such a deal.Just have a business that sells to the American market, and emigrate to Europe. Then maybe you would be less pessimistic.

Optimist
06-03-20, 13:35
Over 65s to be forced to stay at home?. When this was discussed in the media it was followed by suggestions that they should not be treated in hospital as they were contributing nothing to society. Next step is to issue euthanasia kits, or maybe issue them with some identifying mark to wear on their clothing in public.

Always convenient to find a group to value less than the majority.

Pessimist
06-03-20, 13:50
From FT: use the link for the whole article.

https://www.ft.com/content/dae6d006-9adc-46d5-9b4e-79a7841022e8

The architect of Sweden's controversial lighter lockdown policy for dealing with coronavirus has for the first time conceded the Scandinavian country should have imposed more restrictions to avoid having such a high death toll.

Anders Tegnell, Sweden's state epidemiologist, agreed with the interviewer on Sveriges Radio that too many people had died in the country.

"If we would encounter the same disease, with exactly what we know about it today, I think we would land midway between what Sweden did and what the rest of the world did," said Mr Tegnell in the interview broadcast on Wednesday morning.

Mr Tegnell's admission is striking as for months he has criticized other countries' lockdowns and insisted that Sweden's approach was more sustainable despite heavy international scrutiny of its stubbornly high death toll.

Pessimist
06-03-20, 13:54
Just have a business that sells to the American market, and emigrate to Europe. Then maybe you would be less pessimistic.Yes, that is indeed a great idea for whom it works. If I could make it work for me personally, I should be on it pronto!

Turgid
06-03-20, 14:35
Over killer virus, crazy chloroquine Trump has now to hide underground in White House, rather than going to speak to many millions black people in his country.In the videos I'm seeing more white protesters than black ones. Many people are frustrated by loss of jobs, staying home, etc. Protesting covid as well.

McAdonis
06-04-20, 14:14
German executives and their families returning to China. Tested before and after the flight. Passengers summoned to arrive airport not 2 hours before their flight, but 12 hours before their flight. If anything ISGers can just watch the video to get glimpses of Frankfurt Airport: https://youtu.be/U1j58QAT57A.

I assume this is a requirement just for entry into China, and that regardless of destination, international air travel protocols will not be that stringent, when commercial air travel picks up again. Anybody been on international flights recently?

Sirioja
06-04-20, 18:36
From FT: use the link for the whole article.

https://www.ft.com/content/dae6d006-9adc-46d5-9b4e-79a7841022e8

The architect of Sweden's controversial lighter lockdown policy for dealing with coronavirus has for the first time conceded the Scandinavian country should have imposed more restrictions to avoid having such a high death toll.

Anders Tegnell, Sweden's state epidemiologist, agreed with the interviewer on Sveriges Radio that too many people had died in the country.

"If we would encounter the same disease, with exactly what we know about it today, I think we would land midway between what Sweden did and what the rest of the world did," said Mr Tegnell in the interview broadcast on Wednesday morning.

Mr Tegnell's admission is striking as for months he has criticized other countries' lockdowns and insisted that Sweden's approach was more sustainable despite heavy international scrutiny of its stubbornly high death toll.I think nobody knew about how work this new killer virus, so, many countries made many mistakes, but only one Trump and one Bolsonaro, Africa was lucky with weather, Olympics will tell for Japan and time will tell for China.

Dreams
06-06-20, 12:49
Well when I first read it, I wasn't sure if they were plagiarizing '28 Days Later' or 'Rise of the Planet of the Apes'. But monkeys are a serious part of Indian life. They are considered sacred, like cows. When lockdown happened, monkeys took over the deserted streets.Monkeys as sacred as cows in India? Really! Have you ever been there? Stop spamming, please.

Polyamorist
06-06-20, 16:15
Monkeys as sacred as cows in India? Really! Have you ever been there? Stop spamming, please.Salaam Dreams. If you wish to educate yourself, you don't have to look far. Here is a good article:

https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/8gdw5x/monkeys-are-taking-over-india

The divine monkey, Hanuman, is worshipped by Hindus.

Zeos1
06-06-20, 16:39
Monkeys as sacred as cows in India? Really! Have you ever been there? Stop spamming, please.He probably has and you haven't or you would know. Monkeys are as sacred as cows. I have been there.

Pistons
06-09-20, 20:58
Guys,

Look up FURIN cleavage and Covid-19.

In other words, there are now strong evidence that the virus was cocked up in a lab. And of course it was! Otherwise all my previous theories had fallen flat. Which they never do.

As usual, it all leads back to cocks and cleavages.

And don't take my word on it, but the words of Dr Ronen Shemesh.

Pessimist
06-09-20, 22:03
Guys,

Look up FURIN cleavage and Covid-19.

In other words, there are now strong evidence that the virus was cocked up in a lab. And of course it was! Otherwise all my previous theories had fallen flat. Which they never do.

As usual, it all leads back to cocks and cleavages.

And don't take my word on it, but the words of Dr Ronen Shemesh.Personally, I think that is not possible. I base my opinion on the fact that the erudite resident scientist who believes only the experts and no one else has already proclaimed that scientific consensus was formed in March 2020 which stated in very clear language that no Chinese lab was involved in anyway, whatsoever. The wording of the consensus was very absolute according to our science expert. I am not sure why all these Israeli and Australian scientists are still working on this issue. They must not have gotten the memo that a consensus has been ordered and no further research is required.

I used to agree with you Pistons and I had the same views as you articulated here but after the erudite science expert told us very clearly, I had to modify my views and I did. I now believe I was wrong, I must rigidly believe in the scientist consensus from this moment on -- call it faith, even. I will leave it to you however, whether to keep reading the words of Dr. Shemesh and other Australian, Israeli and US scientists. Thanks very much for the message though.

Pistons
06-10-20, 14:19
Gathering so called 'scientific consensus' is standard PR / lobbying / propaganda work. 100% communication. 0% science. It also involve tweaking numbers.

P.S: I know you are joking.

Polyamorist
06-10-20, 14:59
In other words, there are now strong evidence that the virus was cocked up in a lab.Salaam Pistons,

The Wuhan lab was engaged in the notorious "gain-of-function" research, which was previously banned in the US. Gain-of-function research is about making viruses more deadly rather than less deadly. Some scientists say it helps them understand viruses better.

It's a bit like building a missile launcher and saying, "We don't want to launch missiles. We just want to guess how other nations might launch missiles and see how we might stop that if it happened. ".

You might think that sounds a bit thin.

Details for anyone who is interested: https://www.vox.com/2020/5/1/21243148/why-some-labs-work-on-making-viruses-deadlier-and-why-they-should-stop.