Young EE girls usually come to German FKKs with "help". They have to pay back a debt. When this is paid back they can work for themselves and be free and independent. Can. A percentage of the girls will be able to take that step, others don't.
HB
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Young EE girls usually come to German FKKs with "help". They have to pay back a debt. When this is paid back they can work for themselves and be free and independent. Can. A percentage of the girls will be able to take that step, others don't.
HB
[QUOTE=Hessen Bub;1407425]Young EE girls usually come to German FKKs with "help". They have to pay back a debt. When this is paid back they can work for themselves and be free and independent. A percentage of the girls will be able to take that step, others don't.[/QUOTE]There are many forms of debt bondage used by groups and individuals to control the women working in the German sex industry. The type of debt bondage as you outline above is perhaps one of the better sounding ones.
The reality is that most women continue to pay a percentage of their income (in extreme cases most of their income) to the individual or group even after the debt has been paid. Yes once the debt has been paid they are free to work as independents but they are also free to be leaned on by other individuals or groups. The tendency is for the vast majority of the women to continue to pay a percentage for protection to the original individual or group. If you are a Romanian WG perhaps you would prefer to continue to pay for protection by the Romanian Gang who brought you to Germany in the first place and not run the risk of being leaned on by the Bikers or by the Albanian or Russian Mafia.
The FKK/Sauna Club concept is an ingenious creation and a fun place to go for pay sex. I'm a regular myself. But lets not fool ourselves that this is Disneyland. Organisied crime may not own the physical building but they control the women and make profit from the German Sex industry and in this case from FKK/Sauna Clubs. I believe that everyone should be made aware of how the industry is run so they can better understand why sometimes women are desperate to make money in the clubs. Lets all be wise. Why have half the members of this German Section left in the dark?
[QUOTE=Hessen Bub; 1407425]Young EE girls usually come to German FKKs with "help". They have to pay back a debt. When this is paid back they can work for themselves and be free and independent. Can. A percentage of the girls will be able to take that step, others don't.
HB[/QUOTE]This is one of the ways EE girls are then binded to pay. However, I know many "german" girls who have a pimp since many years. One of my favorites got rid of her pimp when he got arrested. He was quite obviously an "emerit" member of the most famous German Gang.
[QUOTE=Kommodore;1407431]The FKK/Sauna Club concept is an ingenious creation and a fun place to go for pay sex. I'm a regular myself. But lets not fool ourselves that this is Disneyland. Organisied crime may not own the physical building but they control the women and make profit from the German Sex industry and from FKK/Sauna Clubs in particular.[/QUOTE]Kommodore, thanks for sharing your point of view and experience but I think your effort is a waste of time, some adults here still believe fairy tales.
[QUOTE=Kommodore;1407431]The tendency is for the vast majority of the women to continue to pay a percentage for protection to the original individual or group. If you are a Romanian WG perhaps you would prefer to continue to pay for protection by the Romanian Gang who brought you to Germany in the first place and not run the risk of being leaned on by the Bikers or by the Albanian or Russian Mafia.[/QUOTE]That's not true for quite a few girls I got to know better. There was NO payment for any protection to "Romanian gangs". You are exaggerating. They were free to do whatever they want. Working independently, at different clubs all over Germany. Some after getting rid of their pimp / manager / friend. Others are controlled 24h by managers and girls in the club. But no reason to generalize.
[QUOTE=Kommodore;1407431]The FKK/Sauna Club concept is an ingenious creation and a fun place to go for pay sex. I'm a regular myself. But lets not fool ourselves that this is Disneyland. Organisied crime may not own the physical building but they control the women and make profit from the German Sex industry and in this case from FKK/Sauna Clubs.[/QUOTE]That is true. They do control women, but not ALL the women as you are trying to make people believe. And it is true for all thr variations of paysex.
HB
[QUOTE=Hessen Bub;1407453]That's not true for quite a few girls I got to know better. There was NO payment for any protection to "Romanian gangs". You are exaggerating. They were free to do whatever they want. Working independently, at different clubs all over Germany. Some after getting rid of their pimp / manager / friend. Others are controlled 24h by managers and girls in the club. But no reason to generalize.[/QUOTE]Look I'm not trying to pick a fight with you. You may not have liked my more complete explanation of your debt payment scenario. I believe that you have something to do with one of the German Language FKK / Sauna Club Forums (moderator and/or proprietor). I enjoy the FKK / Sauna Clubs as do you. I also know of many women working in these clubs who are not controlled and who are making a very good living out of the business. But most of the women in my oppinion (75% at least) are paying some money (and this may be as little as 5% of their takings) to individuals or groups. However, in very many cases it is an awful lot more money than this. You even state yourself that the independent women you know were at some point paying a pimp, a manager (a friend?).
[QUOTE=Hessen Bub;1407453]That is true. They do control women, but not ALL the women as you are trying to make people believe. And it is true for all thr variations of paysex.[/QUOTE]I'm afraid you are exaggerating. I never said all the women were controlled by gangs but definitely a very big majority and the vast majority of Romanian / Bulgarian Girls are controlled by individuals or groups. Now this does not mean that they are always controlled by gangs. But they may be paying a male relatives or "friends". The reality of the situation is that most of these girls are not turning up at the door of World / Acapulco / Oase from the back streets of Bucharest without the help of some individual or group and for this service continued payments is very often expected and must consequently be made.
Look I actually don't think there is that much difference in our oppinions. Perhaps where we place our emphasis. This is not a black and white matter and there are shades of grey in between. I accept this fact. I also accept you know a lot about the Sex Trade in Germany. But although I have very few posts on this forum, please believe that I have an awful lot of experience too and not just in Germany. However, I see no reason to sugar coat this business and better that there is an understanding that these clubs have a darker side than the Male Disneyland idea that is too prevalent on this forum. Believe me, for every girl I know who is making a good living at this business, I can also name another who is on drugs and in debt to gangs / individuals or who is afraid for her life or the lives of her family. Most of the women in the clubs fall somewhere along the scale between both extremes.
I wish you well.
[QUOTE=Kommodore;1407459]Look I'm not trying to pick a fight with you. You may not have liked my more complete explanation of your debt payment scenario. I believe that you have something to do with one of the German Language FKK / Sauna Club Forums (moderator and/or proprietor). I enjoy the FKK / Sauna Clubs as do you. I also know of many women working in these clubs who are not controlled and who are making a very good living out of the business. But most of the women in my oppinion (75% at least) are paying some money (and this may be as little as 5% of their takings) to individuals or groups. However, in very many cases it is an awful lot more money than this. You even state yourself that the independent women you know were at some point paying a pimp, a manager (a friend?).[/QUOTE]If "paying money" to someone includes helping the family or relatives. Yes, then probably more than 95% of the girls are paying money to an individual or group. But independent girls (Romanians, I heard other rumors about Bulgarian girls) are not paying aything for protection to anybody. Not even 5.
But yes, we are on the same side, FKKs are trying to cover the dark side od the business which is there. Girls are being pimped, trafficked, used, they have to make a certain amount of money per month and can't keep it, all the bad / sad stuff. And most men don't want to see it, they want to believe in Disneyland.
HB
[QUOTE=Hessen Bub;1407468]But yes, we are on the same side, FKKs are trying to cover the dark side of the business which is there. Girls are being pimped, trafficked, used, they have to make a certain amount of money per month and can't keep it, all the bad / sad stuff. And most men don't want to see it, they want to believe in Disneyland.[/QUOTE]I think what you have said above is the main message that I too wish to get accross to this forum.
Now I would have to say that I genuinely believe that you underestimate the situation and by the same token I am sure you think I overestimate. I think we are both genuine in our beliefs and anyway there is no point arguing over percentages, because the main message as you have outlined above will be lost. Even if we do differ I do believe that we are at least on the same page. I want the guys who read this forum to wise up and stop making stupid ascersions about the clubs and the women who work in these clubs. I want ISG members to understand the bigger picture.
I think we can both agree that this would be a good thing.
I wish you well.
K
[QUOTE=Indi Companion; 1407219]Hey Kommodore, great piece!
This is all correct what you write, from A to Z. This issue has been discussed many times and also lately both on this thread and on the World thread.
The percentages given by you are more than correct.
As I wrote many times and as you do now, running prostitution today does not necessarily and only mean that a girl has a pimp / boyfriend who simply forces her with violence every morning to go to work. Prostitution and all the crime behind it has evolved, particularly in places like this clubs.
But then, as I wrote many times, the hypocritical and false morale of some "family guys" who need to think that they are not helping such business and get the feeling of not doing anything wrong, makes the very same people blind and deaf towards what happens behind the courtains of clubs.
No matter, we know exactly what happens, myself I have been around too too long for not knowing all details behind that but then, if anyone wants info, please read back the mentioned threads and open your eyes.
I prefer to know reality than making a fool of myself. And all this does not make me stop from my favorite hobby, of course, but at least I have the decency not to lie to myself.
People should always remeber what a way of saying of my country says: "sometimes it is better to keep silent seeming a fool than to speak proving to be a fool", but then often they forget about this smart rule.
However, thanks Kommodore for your post and for sharing your infos and your thoughts.[/QUOTE]Thank you for your post Indi and I completely agree that it is important for everyone who reads these forum pages to have some understanding of the reality of these clubs. Sure they are fun places to go but let us not deceive ourselves into thinking that this is a happy male Disneyland where everything in the garden is rosey! A perfect world it is not and there is a darker side to these clubs which should be understood. At least then members of this forum will know what they are talking about and not sound foolish to members who actually know the score! The subject under discussion has been until recently something that has not been discussed, swept under the carpet and somewhat taboo. I believe it is good that these clubs are seen for what they are. I will still travel to Hessen and NRW and enjoy my FKK / Sauna Club visits but just like you I do not want to deceive myself. I like to know what is reality.
I wish you good fortune
K
[QUOTE=Kommodore;1407498]Now I would have to say that I genuinely believe that you underestimate the situation[/QUOTE][QUOTE=Kommodore;1407569]The whole Sex Industry in Germany (including FKK / Sauna Clubs) is infiltrated to a major degree by organised crime. Women are trafficked and abused in every large FKK / Sauna club the lenght and breath of Deutschland[/QUOTE]As you don't stop repeating that. It is only partly true. It is not the major part of girls in FKK / Saunaclubs who get abused, this is simply untrue.
HB
[QUOTE=Kommodore; 1407498]. I want ISG members to understand the bigger picture.
K[/QUOTE]What exactly is your objective here? Are you a priest? Trying to preach the gospel to us all, sinners?
And, besides this, do you really think that we are all, ISG members, so dumb that we would think that all Wgs are just doing it alone, and for fun?
Please stop patronizing, this is a monger forum, and, by definition, everyone on this forum has dealt with his own moral issue with regards prostitution. And if you really want to go on discussing this, please do so in the appropriate dedicated thread.
Thanks
[QUOTE=Kommodore;1407498]I want ISG members to understand the bigger picture.[/QUOTE][QUOTE=Kommodore;1407431]I believe that everyone should be made aware of how the industry is run so they can better understand why sometimes women are desperate to make money in the clubs. Lets all be wise.[/QUOTE]I believe this is the main thrust behind Komadore's somewhat wordy diatribe of late. I can not say that I disagree with the message just that the messenger comes across a wee preachy.
Those who throw around accusations of racism about clubs with door policies might also do well to remember that the clubs owners / management might also have unseen concerns that fuel such policies. You know what they say about walking a mile in someone else's shoes.
[QUOTE=Hessen Bub; 1407645]As you don't stop repeating that. It is only partly true. It is not the major part of girls in FKK / Saunaclubs who get abused, this is simply untrue.
HB[/QUOTE]This is NOT what I said. I know English may not be your first language.
I said the following [b]"The whole Sex Industry in Germany (including FKK / Sauna Clubs) is infiltrated to a major degree by organised crime. Women are trafficked and abused in every large FKK / Sauna club the lenght and breath of Deutschland"[/b]
I am saying that organised crime has infiltrated the Sex Industry in Germany in a very big way and that every FKK / Sauna Club in Germany has problems relating to this, including women who are trafficked and abused. Please read what I write and not what you think I write.
[QUOTE=Dreams; 1407668]What exactly is your objective here? Are you a priest? Trying to preach the gospel to us all, sinners?
And, besides this, do you really think that we are all, ISG members, so dumb that we would think that all Wgs are just doing it alone, and for fun?
Please stop patronizing, this is a monger forum, and, by definition, everyone on this forum has dealt with his own moral issue with regards prostitution. And if you really want to go on discussing this, please do so in the appropriate dedicated thread.[/QUOTE]I am no priest but my gospel is this. I am completely sick and tired of reading the most stupid statements written by members of this forum who come to Germany on an occasional basis and then write comments and make moral judgements about the FKK / Sauna Clubs and the girls who work in the clubs. No I don't think that ALL ISG Members are dumb but SOME certainly are. Particularly the ones who travel to Germany on an occassional basis and think that they are experts. They completely ignore bigger issues. For instance the door policy at GoldenTime is constantly called into question. Have they got a racist door policy or not. Well YES they do! Caused by many reasons including the involvement of organised crime. But don't make stupid statements about this club and ignore bigger issues which affect the whole of the German Sex Industry and all FKK / Sauna Clubs in particular.
If I sound preachy, it is because I write what I write expecting to be attacked, mis-read and mis-quoted. This is not about moral issues surrounding prostitution. It is about stupid comments and redicules moral concerns which are constantly raised in this Section of ISG by members who need to know better. I am lifting the rock and letting the light of day shine on all the worms and bugs that wriggle and crawl around underneath. Not everyone is going to like what they see underneath the rock. Thats not my concern. If we are going to talk about morality, well lets speak about the bigger picture and not just about whether some Turk or Arab can get inside the door of GoldenTime. Members should stop making comments and seeking brownie points because they think they are fighting some false battle against racism.
[QUOTE=Dreams; 1407668]And, besides this, do you really think that we are all, ISG members, so dumb that we would think that all Wgs are just doing it alone, and for fun?
Please stop patronizing, this is a monger forum, and, by definition, everyone on this forum has dealt with his own moral issue with regards prostitution. And if you really want to go on discussing this, please do so in the appropriate dedicated thread.[/QUOTE]Dreams,
With respect, seeing some of the comments made by ISG members, there are those that think that these girls in the main are doing this job for fun and independently. Some may not have thought about it or refuse to see these happenings being discussed about the controls and the exploitation. That is all.
[QUOTE=Kommodore; 1407710]This is NOT what I said. I know English may not be your first language.
I said the following [b]"The whole Sex Industry in Germany (including FKK / Sauna Clubs) is infiltrated to a major degree by organised crime. Women are trafficked and abused in every large FKK / Sauna club the lenght and breath of Deutschland"[/b]
I am saying that organised crime has infiltrated the Sex Industry in Germany in a very big way and that every FKK / Sauna Club in Germany has problems relating to this, including women who are trafficked and abused. Please read what I write and not what you think I write.[/QUOTE]English is not my first language. But I read what you wrote and what you are implying. You are trying to make people believe that most of the girls are being trafficked and abused. That's not the case. A lot of girls are scared or stupid enough to have a husband, friend, manager, pimp taking their money, not taking the steps necessary to become independent because they are scared and have a twisted picture of Germany's law inforcement situation.
And yes, ALL the girls are there to make money. It's a job they do because they come from the poorest part of the EU. And because they get used to the steady flow of big money it's hard to turn their back to the business. It's OK to tell ISG members to not be blinded by the clean wellness or disco atmosphere. I trust most clients know why the girls are here. Others don't, and they never want or will understand.
HB