Stupid Shit in Kyiv

[QUOTE=Paulie97;2777344]Pretty good write up, though you completely overlooked the fact that Ukraine reclaimed Kherson in the south after nine months of enemy occupation, a highly strategic and "significant" region where a pseudo referendum was held. In your attempt to sound fair and balanced you overlooked a very important detail. Wink.[/QUOTE]First, my post was forward-looking and, as such, was not intended to examine the past in any great depth. Where I do mention past events, like the Kharkhiv campaign, it's primarily for the purpose of pointing out challenges and other factors that might be specifically relevant to the four upcoming developments I listed.

Second, Ukraine has reclaimed Kherson, the city, but nowhere near the entirety of Kherson Oblast. If you look at the map in the link below you'll see the blue (Ukraine reclaimed) area on the west bank of the Dnipro. The red area is still under Russian control and Kherson city is pretty much right on the dividing line. The way you worded your post makes it seem as if the battle for that area is over when, in fact, it's still very much contested.

[URL]https://www.criticalthreats.org/analysis/russian-offensive-campaign-assessment-january-6-2023[/URL]

BTW, the contrast between the Kherson and Kharkhiv campaigns serves to reinforce my point that the unique factors that allowed such a rapid victory in Kharkhiv are unlikely to be repeated.

Any questions (wink)?

[QUOTE=Jmsuttr;2777613]First, my post was forward-looking and, as such, was not intended to examine the past in any great depth. Where I do mention past events, like the Kharkhiv campaign, it's primarily for the purpose of pointing out challenges and other factors that might be specifically relevant to the four upcoming developments I listed.

Second, Ukraine has reclaimed Kherson, the city, but nowhere near the entirety of Kherson Oblast. If you look at the map in the link below you'll see the blue (Ukraine reclaimed) area on the west bank of the Dnipro. The red area is still under Russian control and Kherson city is pretty much right on the dividing line. The way you worded your post makes it seem as if the battle for that area is over when, in fact, it's still very much contested.

[URL]https://www.criticalthreats.org/analysis/russian-offensive-campaign-assessment-january-6-2023[/URL][/QUOTE]I couldn't help commenting on this one line that I read in the article you posted.

"While many voices in the Russian information space strongly criticized the ceasefire announcement, certain hardline elements seized on Putin's statement to continue to propagate the narrative that Putin is a protector of religious values and morals".

This bit of orthodox christian proselytizing that has emerged in Russian propaganda is amazing. It's a little bit like "have ideology, will travel". It's also a bit rich given Putin's KGB poster boy past. It appears the Russians who were so good at trying to isolate their people and feed them a steady diet of propaganda for most of the 20th century have developed a propensity to sling the bullshit.

How does that go over inside Russia? Can the Russians really shut down access to internet information? Do any of our resident Russophiles think Putin is some great spiritual and moral leader?

On the world stage, it certainly can be said that imperialistic tendencies generally need an ideology for justification and motivation. This one however can be categorized as theater of the absurd.

In the grander.

[QUOTE=WyattEarp;2777765]I couldn't help commenting on this one line that I read in the article you posted.

"While many voices in the Russian information space strongly criticized the ceasefire announcement, certain hardline elements seized on Putin's statement to continue to propagate the narrative that Putin is a protector of religious values and morals".

This bit of orthodox christian proselytizing that has emerged in Russian propaganda is amazing. It's a little bit like "have ideology, will travel". It's also a bit rich given Putin's KGB poster boy past. It appears the Russians who were so good at trying to isolate their people and feed them a steady diet of propaganda for most of the 20th century have developed a propensity to sling the bullshit.

How does that go over inside Russia? Can the Russians really shut down access to internet information? Do any of our resident Russophiles think Putin is some great spiritual and moral leader?

On the world stage, it certainly can be said that imperialistic tendencies generally need an ideology for justification and motivation. This one however can be categorized as theater of the absurd.

In the grander.[/QUOTE]Whether it's the pseudo-religious argument, or styling himself as the new Peter the Great (reclaiming historical Russian lands), or claiming to be a victim of NATO and the West, the goal is the same: to delegitimize and dehumanize Ukraine and thereby provide a justification for Russian aggression. It's really not important for anyone to believe any of it, it's only useful to have various excuses you can point to. In fact, having multiple excuses means Russia can conveniently shift gears whenever challenged.

That latter point is important because each of those bogus arguments melt away when subjected to close examination. When stripped down to its core, the Russian justification has always been, very simply, "because we can" (or at least because they thought they could). But the brutal honesty of that position isn't easy for every (internal and external) audience to swallow. So Russia has no problem telling people whatever it takes to "sell" their aggression as something more palatable.

[QUOTE=Jmsuttr;2777819]Whether it's the pseudo-religious argument, or styling himself as the new Peter the Great (reclaiming historical Russian lands), or claiming to be a victim of NATO and the West, the goal is the same: to delegitimize and dehumanize Ukraine and thereby provide a justification for Russian aggression. It's really not important for anyone to believe any of it, it's only useful to have various excuses you can point to. In fact, having multiple excuses means Russia can conveniently shift gears whenever challenged.

That latter point is important because each of those bogus arguments melt away when subjected to close examination. When stripped down to its core, the Russian justification has always been, very simply, "because we can" (or at least because they thought they could). But the brutal honesty of that position isn't easy for every (internal and external) audience to swallow. So Russia has no problem telling people whatever it takes to "sell" their aggression as something more palatable.[/QUOTE]Yes, I agree. Doesn't have to make sense or completely be believed by the public.

As you note, Peter the Great is probably the connection the Russian hawks are trying to make with the country's imperialistic past. As head of both the church and country, Peter the Great harks back to the European history of Christianity and conquest. The Tsar was appointed by God no less.

[QUOTE=Jmsuttr;2772943]Fuck the so-called corruption issue. It's total BS [/QUOTE]Oh yeah. Why is every Ukrainian I know irate with what's happening? The leadership is a cancer.

How does the gifting in Ukraine compare to the American War in indochina or the Double Bill American War in Iraq and Afghanistan? By the way, the corrupt leaders in Ukraine are doing a good job in organizing their populace to resist and "decorating" the countryside with the invaders. As at StarskyUa says "improved".

[QUOTE=Beijing4987;2783272] By the way, the corrupt leaders in Ukraine are doing a good job in organizing their populace to resist [/QUOTE]Sounds like you have also viewed the footage of older men rounded up at gun point and forced to fight.

[QUOTE=Riina;2783176]Oh yeah. Why is every Ukrainian I know irate with what's happening? The leadership is a cancer.[/QUOTE]Nice attempt to misrepresent my meaning by quoting a small portion of my post while pointedly avoiding a mountain of context. Here's the whole thing:

[QUOTE=Jmsuttr;2772943]Fuck the so-called corruption issue. It's total BS because it fails to address (at least) three key issues:

1. Anyone who is attacked has the right to defend themselves, full stop. And that right has nothing to do with how good or bad that person is or how good or bad others think they are. That right is absolute and remains whether a person is a saint, a devil, or something in between. Even the worst convicted criminal, after having done his time and been released, has the right to defend himself if attacked. Hell, he retains that right even while in prison! So, whether Zelensky, or anyone else in Ukraine, is corrupt or not, they're not obliged to lay down and let a Russian tank run over them.

2. The so-called corruption argument nearly always ignores, or severely downplays, the EXTREME corruption perpetrated by Putin and his Kremlin cronies for DECADES. Assuming, for the sake of argument, that there's corruption in both sides, any fair balance would tilt immeasurably against Russia. It's not even a serious debate because there's so much more money sloshing around Russia and they've been stealing it for so long.

3. In forward-looking terms, Ukraine has ambitions of joining both the EU and NATO. As they go through those membership processes they will be under all sorts of scrutiny and will be required to pass laws, change systems, and put in safequards. And what that means is that Ukraine is moving toward becoming a country that works to root out corruption, rather than tolerate it. Meanwhile Russia continues to be a kleptocratic sewer.

For all the above reasons, and I'm sure people will think of more, accusations of corruption are a total red herring. Here's a hypothetical for ya, if Zelensky was found guilty of corruption and removed from office, it wouldn't change Ukraine's absolute right to defend their country and their lives. Not one iota.[/QUOTE]Got any response to the ENTIRE post? Since I clearly stated that the principle of self-defense trumps all else. And since I go out of my way to point out that, even if Zelensky is found guilty of corruption and removed, it wouldn't change the fundamental right of Ukrainians to defend their lives and their land.

Any questions?

P.S. And it remains the height of hypocrisy that all those who get their panties in a twist about corruption on the part of Ukraine, real or alleged, never utter a SINGLE word about the uber-corrupt kleptocracy that rules Russia.

P. P.S. I'm overjoyed at the fact that Ukrainians are outraged by reports of corruption. That means they're making progress toward full EU integration, while Russia marches steadily backward toward their third-world fate.

[QUOTE=Jmsuttr;2784673]Nice attempt to misrepresent my meaning by quoting a small portion of my post while pointedly avoiding a mountain of context. Here's the whole thing:

Got any response to the ENTIRE post? Since I clearly stated that the principle of self-defense trumps all else. And since I go out of my way to point out that, even if Zelensky is found guilty of corruption and removed, it wouldn't change the fundamental right of Ukrainians to defend their lives and their land.

Any questions?

P.S. And it remains the height of hypocrisy that all those who get their panties in a twist about corruption on the part of Ukraine, real or alleged, never utter a SINGLE word about the uber-corrupt kleptocracy that rules Russia.

P. P.S. I'm overjoyed at the fact that Ukrainians are outraged by reports of corruption. That means they're making progress toward full EU integration, while Russia marches steadily backward toward their third-world fate.[/QUOTE]Both countries are as corrupt as Hell! I have my doubts about Ukraine and this is probably just for show, but we can hope that they are finally getting their act together.

[QUOTE=Jmsuttr;2784673]Nice attempt to misrepresent my meaning by quoting a small portion of my post while pointedly avoiding a mountain of context. Here's the whole thing:

"...2. The so-called corruption argument nearly always ignores, or severely downplays, the EXTREME corruption perpetrated by Putin and his Kremlin cronies for DECADES. Assuming, for the sake of argument, that there's corruption in both sides, any fair balance would tilt immeasurably against Russia. It's not even a serious debate because there's so much more money sloshing around Russia and they've been stealing it for so long...."

Got any response to the ENTIRE post? Since I clearly stated that the principle of self-defense trumps all else. And since I go out of my way to point out that, even if Zelensky is found guilty of corruption and removed, it wouldn't change the fundamental right of Ukrainians to defend their lives and their land.

Any questions?

P.S. And it remains the height of hypocrisy that all those who get their panties in a twist about corruption on the part of Ukraine, real or alleged, never utter a SINGLE word about the uber-corrupt kleptocracy that rules Russia.

P. P.S. I'm overjoyed at the fact that Ukrainians are outraged by reports of corruption. That means they're making progress toward full EU integration, while Russia marches steadily backward toward their third-world fate.[/QUOTE]In fact, Putin has been actively promoting corruption in Ukraine for decades. He tries to undermine any notion of a fair and democratic society at every point. It's not like both are tarred with the same brush. Putin / Russia is immersed in the mud and tries to drag Ukraine down with it. Sometimes he succeeds, sometimes the best Ukrainian leaders succeed (and sometimes they fail).

Sure, as our saying goes 'We don't take bribes, we give them'. Good read / listen from the US POV:

[URL]https://www.youtube.com/@douglasmacgregorcol5835/videos[/URL]

And in Foreign Affairs section [URL]https://www.theamericanconservative.com/[/URL].

[QUOTE=Riina;2783541]Sounds like you have also viewed the footage of older men rounded up at gun point and forced to fight.[/QUOTE]You've got it all wrong. Those were Russian 50+ something, not Ukrainians.

[URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2QONzVd11Xw[/URL]

[QUOTE=DramaFree11;2784822]Both countries are as corrupt as Hell! I have my doubts about Ukraine and this is probably just for show, but we can hope that they are finally getting their act together.[/QUOTE]Prior to last Feb 24th, Ukraine was managing its affairs under the status quo. Whatever corruption was going on was part of the fabric of that status quo.

Post-invasion, most Ukrainians (politicians + population, from every poll I've seen) have come to the conclusion that their future welfare and existence won't be secure without menbership in the EU, at a minimum, and hopefully also NATO. For either of those two things to happen, Ukraine will need to step up its anti-corruption game. Not for show, but for real.

Another reason is that a population in which so many have experienced the death of family, friends, and acquaintances, are likely to be much less tolerant of corruption during a time of war. Every act of corruption will be viewed, and rightly so, as a direct betrayal of the forces fighting to defend Ukraine and an even more heinous betrayal of those who have given their lives.

[QUOTE=Questner;2784937]Sure, as our saying goes 'We don't take bribes, we give them'. Good read / listen from the US POV:

[URL]https://www.youtube.com/@douglasmacgregorcol5835/videos[/URL]

And in Foreign Affairs section [URL]https://www.theamericanconservative.com/[/URL].[/QUOTE]Why not display some intestinal fortitude and articulate an argument rather than just drop links that aren't even to any specific videos or articles? Colonel McGregor is a Putin buttboy. There's a slew of US generals both on the right and left that staunchly disagree with him. The American Conservative is a far right, isolationist publication founded by the bigot and Nazi sympathizer Pat Buchanan.

The bottom line is that it's in both our national interest and that of our European allies that borders are not changed through aggression. We also can't afford to shrink at nuclear saber rattling given the precedent it would set. Putin needs to fail and he's going to. Russia since the fall of the USSR has been repeatedly invited to join the civilized world but has refused. They will remain our enemy until they change their minds. But I and others have covered this ad nauseam in the recent past, calling out the whataboutism and other deflections and faulty analysis from far right advocates like Kerzog, I believe was the name, and Drama Queen also. I'm not doing it all over again as the work was already completed, but I encourage anyone curious to look up my posts on this thread.

P.S. Thankfully this isolationist angle represents a minority view among Republicans and that's much more so the case among Democrats. Slava Ukraini.

[QUOTE=DramaFree11;2784822]Both countries are as corrupt as Hell! I have my doubts about Ukraine and this is probably just for show, but we can hope that they are finally getting their act together.[/QUOTE]Russia is far worse, and this is reflected in the differences in their freedom scores, Ukraine 59 out of 100, Russia 23. Many metrics are taken into account with these scores and corruption is a big focus. Ukraine has seen a lot of improvements since 2014.

[URL]https://freedomhouse.org/countries/freedom-net/scores[/URL]

And this link has been posted many times before, but you choose to come back here month after month and post this same simplistic and fallacious talking point over and over. Do some research, get a grip on some honesty, try to rise above the level of the spin Tucker Carlson frames for his high school education level audience, and maybe you can become a useful contributor. Stranger things have happened.