German FKK Clubs - Lounge and chat area

[QUOTE=Kommodore;1407805]There are also some silly comments about Clubs and WGs by some ISG Members which I would like to stamp out by improving understanding of how this business works.[/QUOTE]Silly comments on the internet. Imagine that. And you want to stamp it out. Good luck with that let us know how it turns out.

Look, I go to a club because after many, many years of seeing pros it is the nicest atmosphere I have found yet in which to meet ladies who will bang me for cash. I meet some nice ladies, we have some laughs I get my pole greased and pay the lady some cash.

While I know there is a dark side to the whole damn industry I don; t think about it so much just like I don; t think so much about the fact that my cucumbers are picked in Spain by African migrant workers living in conditions I can not even imagine and getting paid pennies.

The ladies I tend to hook up with are generally pretty smart, funny and seem to enjoy life as least as much as I do and actually seem to have a higher standard of living. So I take it for what it is, enjoy their company and help them make a living as best I can.

With all due respect you do seem on some kind of crusade here even though you claim not. I must admit though I am having a hard time figuring out exactly what you are crudsading against.

AM

[QUOTE=Angus Magee;1407807]must admit though I am having a hard time figuring out exactly what you are crudsading against.[/QUOTE]And that from a native English speaker. LOL.

HB

[QUOTE=Angus Magee; 1407807]With all due respect you do seem on some kind of crusade here even though you claim not. I must admit though I am having a hard time figuring out exactly what you are crudsading against.

AM[/QUOTE]This is not a crusade of any description. I would prefer if most ISG Members of this particular forum have a better understanding of the business and hence cut out stupid comments and moral attitudes. Unfortunately I have got cought up on another argument with Hessen Bub about the extent of the problems in this industry. I would prefer to park the latter argument because we will not reach agreement and because I am getting quoted out of context and more importantly the original message is getting lost. Besides Im not out to campaign against this business. I think that this is not an unreasonable position.

Also I never said [b]I[/b] was a native English speaker (another misquote/assumption), but for many reasons my English Language skills are pretty good.

K

[QUOTE=Kommodore;1407815]Also I never said [b]I[/b] was a native English speaker (another misquote/assumption)[/QUOTE]No misquote. I never called you a native speaker. You assumed that I am not (correct). And AM said he's having a hard time understanding what you want. And he is a native speaker. Maybe you lost your sense of humour over the discussion. ;)

HB

[QUOTE=Hessen Bub; 1407822]No misquote. I never called you a native speaker. You assumed that I am not (correct). And AM said he's having a hard time understanding what you want. And he is a native speaker. Maybe you lost your sense of humour over the discussion. .

HB[/QUOTE]My sense of humour is good thanks :) and I knew that you were not a native English speaker. I did not assume.

You pm'd me last night asking if I was an American living in Germany, so you must have thought my English Language skills were pretty good.

At least that was your assumption ;)

K

[QUOTE=Brazil Specialist; 1407796]What is EE? European Union?

Why do these girls need HELP to take a bus to Germany, with no border controls on the way? And what debt? 100 dollars for the train ticket?

No more jumping borders and human smuggling needed. So I don't quite see why there would be slavery.

Trafficking is a myth invented by feminists and anti-sex conservative religous right.

I have seen slavery, but that was a while ago. In the Czech republic after the fall of the wall, and in Philippines. 15 years ago. But why would a girl in Germany be enslaved, if she is there legally and has a legal job? Only if she is stupid drug addict or has other problems.

Please explain[/QUOTE]EE means Eastern Europe.

Even if Romania and Bulgaria are having EU status and maybe not having restrictions there are still barriers to employment.

You must have some imagination. Think of the migrant young girls that have no language apart from their own, who thinks to themselves that they must sell their bodies to all manner of men in a strange land where the religion is not the same as your own. They come to Germany or whatever country (Dubai, Cyprus, Spain, Italy, Netherlands) and they know not where to get an apartment. Their funds are low or non existent, this is why they seek the work. The girls need a sponsor who they know and trust to help set them up. They gladly take the helps of the Romanian boy or the Albanian boy or the Turkish pagan or the German biker who offers support and a place to stay and a place to work. Now the quid pro quo is that there is indebtedness.

Remember me, these girls have no address in Germany, no credit history, no huge pile of cash so a landlord can give them credence that they can pay the rental on the flat, no job lined up or job that they can explain to the bank or to the landlord that they can get legit. Also there are all manner of other documentation if they were to get a flat like electircity, gas, pay for local government fees and so such. How does a girl do all that easily and able to make money quick?

The usual rates for a set up service I hears from the girls is that it can be 8000 to 10000 euro and sometimes after that the girls is frees to work on their own account with due deference to whatever controls of the club. A girls may say that 8000 euro they can make in 2-4 months work depending on how good they are. Also on top remember me that she has to pay the entrance fees that takes a chunk of change each day she work and she need to pay for her accomodation too.

Then there are those on a fee based scheme in payment for getting set up with the flat, entry to the club and support during this time. There is the wrangle at the World where around 30 girls are paying 1000 euro a month for the "support" services so to speak.

There is slavery going on all the time.

See the story of the low paid workers of Google in Germany and the conditions that they worked under.

Sometimes the Google workers are in the same camp as some girls you see in the clubs feeling hopeless and no way out.

[QUOTE=Yakob;1407879]Remember me, these girls have no address in Germany, no credit history, no huge pile of cash so a landlord can give them credence that they can pay the rental on the flat, no job lined up or job that they can explain to the bank or to the landlord that they can get legit. Also there are all manner of other documentation if they were to get a flat like electircity, gas, pay for local government fees and so such. How does a girl do all that easily and able to make money quick?[/QUOTE]I agree that when a Romanian girl starts out in the FKK business it is unlikely that she did it without any help. Median wage in Romania I around 200 euros per month. How is she even going to save up enough money for the trip to Germany, a place to sleep, the first entrances to clubs and whatever paperwork needs to be done. Especially if she does not speak very well German and / or English.

It is natural that she must have used some kind of all inclusive "setup service", and actually it is not unfair that this is priced a lot higher than the actual costs involved. The person providing this service is essentially giving out a very risky loan. There is a high chance that the girls might not be able to pay the money back. Thus a significant risk premium would be added even in a 100% legal framework.

[QUOTE=Yakob;1407879]The usual rates for a set up service I hears from the girls is that it can be 8000 to 10000 euro and sometimes after that the girls is frees to work on their own account with due deference to whatever controls of the club. A girls may say that 8000 euro they can make in 2-4 months work depending on how good they are. Also on top remember me that she has to pay the entrance fees that takes a chunk of change each day she work and she need to pay for her accomodation too.[/QUOTE]Between 8000 and 10000 sounds quite stiff. But I do not know what the actual setup costs are. To me it would be "fair" to markup the cost price by 100-200, to cover the failures and the potential trouble.

Since noone can be expected to help for free, I at least do not think that it is unfair if a girl has to pay back her debt. It would be the amount involved compared to the costs involved which will determine whether we are talking about pimping or simply a fair service provider.

And when the debt is paid back then off course the girl should be let free to keep her earnings.

[QUOTE=Yakob;1407879]There is slavery going on all the time.[/QUOTE]Slavery is definately not the word I would use about FKK girls.

And I doubt that anyone are conned and forced to work at these clubs, because there is simply too tough competition inside the club."Slaves" would lack determination, and would be outcompeted by those other girls who were there by their own free will.

[QUOTE=Frej Of Asgaard; 1407935]Slavery is definately not the word I would use about FKK girls.

And I doubt that anyone are conned and forced to work at these clubs, because there is simply too tough competition inside the club."Slaves" would lack determination, and would be outcompeted by those other girls who were there by their own free will.[/QUOTE]There are many extremes in the Sex Business from women who are earning very good money as sex workers to those poor wretches that are handing over more or less every cent to pimps and / or gangs. Of course most women fall in between these two extremes. The worst extremes are probably more prevalent at the bottom end of the market but examples of this can be found even in the environment of the bigger FKK / Sauna Clubs. Some of the girls working in the FKK/Sauna Clubs are given a target by their "manager". This target may be €30 or €40K per annum (to be paid on say a weekly or monthly basis) and any amount above this target they can keep. I think that it is pointless arguing about the percentage of women who fall into the more extreme categories. But it is enough to know that this type of treatment can and does happen. It is also important to be aware that organised crime is involved in this business. FKK World is very much implicated. You can very often see the Romanian Pimps sitting around the club on a Saturday Night drinking their €120 bottles of Jack Daniels giving their orders to the girls. The place is full of Bikers and is reputedly owned by a Biker Organisation. At the end of the night you can see many Albanian and Romanian males collect their women from the club. Are they husbands, brothers, boyfriends, cousins, friends or pimps. Who knows? But you could not wish to meet a more unsavoury looking bunch of characters. Will I go back to FKK World. Hell yes! I like the club and the girls and I get a kick listening into the conversations of these Romanian Pimps. Same type of thing goes on in other FKK / Sauna clubs, just maybe not as obvious. When we were children we all believed in Father Christmas and Disneyland but we all had to grow up and understand the truth. It is not necessarily nice to lear bad things about a hobby that we love but we also have to learn the truth about the sex business. FKK / Sauna clubs are not Disneyland but they are still fun places to visit. Just be more aware of what might be going on. Not all the girls are working for themselves. Many are paying over some money from their earnings to groups and individuals. Some are handing over most of their cash. So maybe next time when a girl is trying hard to upsell in the room, please remember that the money that she gets to keep may be the amount that she succeeds in upselling to you and that she may be handing over the bulk of the money earned for a standard half hour. This is by no means always the case but sometimes it is the sad fact.

[QUOTE=Frej Of Asgaard;1407935]And I doubt that anyone are conned and forced to work at these clubs, because there is simply too tough competition inside the club."Slaves" would lack determination, and would be outcompeted by those other girls who were there by their own free will.[/QUOTE]Oh, believe me there are incentives for the girls that no work of their own volition to work for the money and do a good job to make their boss happy. This entails a threat to their family or their own exposure. Some girls really believe this and some claim that members of their family have been injured when they have no come up with the goods. No point in injuring the girl since she is the money maker.

Another blonde Russian girl say me that she work for 3 years and no seen a single euro of what she earned until finally she tell her Biker boyfriend to fuck off or she go police and now she earn the money. Nowadays lshe earnt to hustle the clients as a free working girl since she know no other way to work for this good money.

I inquire and say this to some girls at Oase and World and they tell me it is better for the mongers to no ask too much question and enjoy the club for what it is. This is no our world and it is all I can do. Then she usually go back to sucking my cock.

[QUOTE=Angus Magee;1407693]Those who throw around accusations of racism about clubs with door policies might also do well to remember that the clubs owners / management might also have unseen concerns that fuel such policies. You know what they say about walking a mile in someone else's shoes.[/QUOTE][QUOTE=The Cane;1407730]Two wrongs don't make anything right.[/QUOTE]Look in this world there is no wrong and there is no right. The tentacles of organised crime are involved in all areas of the sex business and contribute to the door policy in GoldenTime. If you insist on having morals about the sex business, there are far worse things going on in this world besides whether or not the Black or the Arab or the Turk can gain admittance to GT. If you want to be morally correct, stay away from the sex business period. Otherwise just go to one of the many, many clubs that allow entry to every race. But don't continue to preach about morals when the world that you seek to inhabit is indeed a very sordid place indeed. I will continue to visit GoldenTime, just as I will continue to visit other FKK / Sauna Clubs. My moral compass about all these matters died at the door of a Sauna Club many many years ago.

[QUOTE=Yakob;1407951]Oh, believe me there are incentives for the girls that no work of their own volition to work for the money and do a good job to make their boss happy. This entails a threat to their family or their own exposure. Some girls really believe this and some claim that members of their family have been injured when they have no come up with the goods. No point in injuring the girl since she is the money maker.[/QUOTE]I have heard similar information from women I have gotten to know who work in the sex industry. The women tended to come from Romania / Bulgaria.

I get some kind of weak protection but we have to pay on average 52% to the gang. But that's not for some months or years, it's for life. Nobody comes to fetch me in a luxurious car when I finish working and can't upsell anal because it's supposed to be included. If I don't pay, my house can be taken away from me and I could even get in jail. Knowing 3 languages (for which the learning cost was deducted by the remaining 48%) and being able to do my paperwork didn't help.

To live, I sell my body. Invested in my brain so I'm hiring that, but maybe selling other parts could have been more lucrative. Who knows.

Not Disneyland.

Kimino

[QUOTE=Kommodore;1407968]Look in this world there is no wrong and there is no right. But don't continue to preach about morals when the world that you seek to inhabit is indeed a very sordid place indeed.[/QUOTE]There is such a thing as right and wrong. And, it appears to me that the only one here "preaching" about anything is you. I too will continue to go to the FKKs. Anyplace where I can get my dick sucked and fuck pretty girls in the ass.

[QUOTE=Kommodore;1407947]There are many extremes in the Sex Business from women who are earning very good money as sex workers to those poor wretches that are handing over more or less every cent to pimps and / or gangs. Of course most women fall in between these two extremes. The worst extremes are probably more prevalent at the bottom end of the market but examples of this can be found even in the environment of the bigger FKK / Sauna Clubs. Some of the girls working in the FKK/Sauna Clubs are given a target by their "manager". This target may be €30 or €40K per annum (to be paid on say a weekly or monthly basis) and any amount above this target they can keep. I think that it is pointless arguing about the percentage of women who fall into the more extreme categories. But it is enough to know that this type of treatment can and does happen. It is also important to be aware that organised crime is involved in this business. FKK World is very much implicated. You can very often see the Romanian Pimps sitting around the club on a Saturday Night drinking their €120 bottles of Jack Daniels giving their orders to the girls. The place is full of Bikers and is reputedly owned by a Biker Organisation. At the end of the night you can see many Albanian and Romanian males collect their women from the club. Are they husbands, brothers, boyfriends, cousins, friends or pimps. Who knows? But you could not wish to meet a more unsavoury looking bunch of characters. Will I go back to FKK World. Hell yes! I like the club and the girls and I get a kick listening into the conversations of these Romanian Pimps. Same type of thing goes on in other FKK / Sauna clubs, just maybe not as obvious. When we were children we all believed in Father Christmas and Disneyland but we all had to grow up and understand the truth. It is not necessarily nice to lear bad things about a hobby that we love but we also have to learn the truth about the sex business. FKK / Sauna clubs are not Disneyland but they are still fun places to visit. Just be more aware of what might be going on. Not all the girls are working for themselves. Many are paying over some money from their earnings to groups and individuals. Some are handing over most of their cash. So maybe next time when a girl is trying hard to upsell in the room, please remember that the money that she gets to keep may be the amount that she succeeds in upselling to you and that she may be handing over the bulk of the money earned for a standard half hour. This is by no means always the case but sometimes it is the sad fact.[/QUOTE]Ah I missed the best part of one of my favorite issues, damn work!

Kommodore, you are absolutely right as well as Yakob (but with him we agreed already on this in the past).

It is all true, and this comes from my direct experience with many girls.

You can call it slavery or not. I am a civilized person and come from a so called civilized country. However, I have been well educated by my family at least. I have been teached to call slavery any kind of limitation of the basic freedom of an individual. Slavery is for me when you cannot make 100% of the choices regarding directly your life. Therefore, in my opinion there is a lot of slavery going on in the world of German prostitution.

Still about involvements. C'mon, do you really think the racist policy at GT is only due to what the girls prefer or not?

Most of the girls pimped in GT are all under the umbrella of the Bikers organization. They do not want any potential influence of any different gang and therefore the club itself found a compromise with them enforcing very strictly an already existing door policy. This has been confirmed to me by most of the regular girls working in GT and that I know since many years. Believe it or not, it is not my problem.

And this is only an example of how deep is the involvement in this business. I know for certain that Bikers are shareholders of at least 5 major clubs.

Turkish gangs are shareholders of at least 3 major clubs.

Do you tink girls can work all on their own free wil there?

You guys really maybe also believe that Elvis is still alive if you do not see what the situation about prostitution in Germany is!

Kommodore, keep going on your way and do not bother what they tell you.

[QUOTE=Yakob;1407951]Oh, believe me there are incentives for the girls that no work of their own volition to work for the money and do a good job to make their boss happy. This entails a threat to their family or their own exposure. Some girls really believe this and some claim that members of their family have been injured when they have no come up with the goods. No point in injuring the girl since she is the money maker.[/QUOTE]Brother Yakob, as usual you are correct and straight to the point.

One of my most recent ex wifes was exactly in such situation. She paid in 2, 5 years 183K to the organization running her under such threats.

Once she repaid what she had to pay, in order to work "freely" she still had to pay a monthly fee of 2000 euro.

She worked 3 months like that, made the little money she needed to do and went back home to finally have a real free life. That's all. And I say it because I am still in regular contact with her even if she retired since almost one year, know where she lives and for which company she works now. No reason for bullshit here.

But I still see that many members here still believe in fairy tales, so no need to explain anything to people who do not want to listen.