Chat Rooms & Pen Pals

[QUOTE=GoodEnough]AV has posted some of the best advice/insights that I've yet seen here. of "love," . I think in literary criticism it's called the willing suspension of disbelief.

1. Avoid thinking you understand the culture and the social dynamics because you do not and you never will. It's easy to get duped into thinking you understand the girl, her situation, her feelings and her motives; easy because there's a patina of Western culture in the Philippines, and many people assume that because people speak English and because the Americans were here as colonizers for 50 years or so, the country is "Westernized."

When I worked in Makati, I employed a few expats and my message on Day One to them was always " this isnt Europe, this isnt the US.". They may talk English and may look you in the eye, but they arent the same as you.

A few got it, but I had to re-patriate quite a few who never understood that they arent Western depsite some outward appearances to the contrary.

In Vietnam, in Indonesia, in China you know what you are dealing with. Many however, get confused in Philippines.

[QUOTE=Gamahucher]This fine lady on Tagged, supposedly living in Manila, wants to be my friend.

Yeeeeessss...a result! Fill my boots with crinkly granny. Hope she takes her teeth out before giving head:D.[/QUOTE]

Now you know how your young lovelies and her friends look at you. Not right to re-post that lady's photo out of ridicule.

[QUOTE=Cbea20]Now you know how your young lovelies and her friends look at you. Not right to re-post that lady's photo out of ridicule.[/QUOTE]

You are maybe right but I do still do have my own teeth or not qute as many wrinkles (or am a Granny as far as I know):D. I'm sure you don't think I would be so callous or that such an sweet old lady would seek romance on Philippine Tagged? She is obviously not a Pinay and the picture is a cover for a far younger (late 30's) lady. Do a search on tagged for Granny Meg (you have to become her friend to see her real photo's).

Never take at face value, anything you read on the internet, especially from an established [url=http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord140][CodeWord140][/url]-taker!

[QUOTE=GoodEnough]1. A

2. Do not assume that you are being told the truth, because in most cases you aren't, at least not in the way that Westerners look at the truth. There's no hesitation, and no sense of shame in lying here is the lie causes the liar to avoid unpleasantness, save face, or avoid putting herself in a corner.

GE[/QUOTE]A Filipina I know here where I work, who I used to bonk contacted me today. She is now married, and as her purse is reasonably empty, asked if I wanted to taste her again. I said. " what about your vow to stay faithful". She replied. I would be paying her to bonk her now so it didn't count.

Amazing how these loveies can twist the words to suit their own version of truth.

[QUOTE=FreebieFan]A Filipina I know here where I work, who I used to bonk contacted me today. She is now married, and as her purse is reasonably empty, asked if I wanted to taste her again. I said. "what about your vow to stay faithful". She replied. I would be paying her to bonk her now so it didn't count.

Amazing how these loveies can twist the words to suit their own version of truth.[/QUOTE]Yeah FF, they are breathtakingly mercenary but to be fair its not only flips who are like that. Its just, as GE and others have said, because they speak english & have a thin veneer of westernisation we are more easily fooled.

AV

[QUOTE=GoodEnough]AV has posted some of the best advice/insights that I've yet seen here. It's easy to get beguiled by the ostensible charm, the great sex, the eternal smiles and the frequent expressions of "love," and it's equally easy to immerse yourself in the Pygmalion fantasy of rescue and transformation. I think in literary criticism it's called the willing suspension of disbelief. The harsh fact is though that in many--dare I say most--cases, it really is fantasy and the cold reality it that many of these girls are as hard as steel at the core; they do what they need to do in order to survive and, in many cases, provide for the survival of their families. I'm not contending that this is always true, because it certainly isn't, but it pays always to be extraordinarily cautious.

Being cautious means accepting some simple, basic truths:

1. Avoid thinking you understand the culture and the social dynamics because you do not and you never will. It's easy to get duped into thinking you understand the girl, her situation, her feelings and her motives; easy because there's a patina of Western culture in the Philippines, and many people assume that because people speak English and because the Americans were here as colonizers for 50 years or so, the country is "Westernized." The veneer of westernization however is quite thin. This is a tribal culture or cultures, with unique values, belief systems and mores; you are not part of it; you never will be part of it; you will never understand it completely.

2. Do not assume that you are being told the truth, because in most cases you aren't, at least not in the way that Westerners look at the truth. There's no hesitation, and no sense of shame in lying here is the lie causes the liar to avoid unpleasantness, save face, or avoid putting herself in a corner. Reality is an invention and if you do not keep constantly in your mind that you are not hearing stories that incorporate all of the relevant facts, you could be in trouble because you will act on assumptions that are not valid.

3. Remember that, most likely, her first obligation is to her extended family and not to you. You will, in most cases, never understand the "utang na loob;" the enormous, neverending obligation she owes her family, and part of her relationship with you is a way of paying forward that obligation.

You can have a great time here, and you can indulge yourself in your wildest fantasies, so long as you remember that most of the time they're fantasies and nothing more. This is not your culture and it's essential to keep that always at the forefront of both of your brains.

GE[/QUOTE]

You are right 100% that they are different that Westerners. Lying is a way of life, to save face or whatever. I find along with the lying is that they can justify anything they do or others do, especially if it against a Westerner. They believe it never wrong for Westerner to pay for everything, all the time. Also it is OK if they are lazy and don't work, but a Westerner should work and give them their money. I hear that working that job doesn't pay enough. There is none of the mentality that any job is better than no job.

Do they lie as much to other Filipinos or is it just to Westerners because we are outside of the tribe?

It is a tribal society and I see their obligation is to their family is first. I see fathers who don't mind their daughter being bar girls and putting in double time boom booming so they can have alcohol or some other non-necessity for the home. I see the girls go along with it to be a good little daughters.

My question is can these girls ever feel their obligation is to their BF or husband and not to their family first?

I have never used a dating site yet. How easy to bed are the girls on these sites? What % of the girls on the sites are P4P?

Also how easy are non bar girls to bed? Is it a promiscuous culture?

[QUOTE=Big Johnson2]You are right 100% that they are different that Westerners. Lying is a way of life, to save face or whatever. I find along with the lying is that they can justify anything they do or others do, especially if it against a Westerner. They believe it never wrong for Westerner to pay for everything, all the time. Also it is OK if they are lazy and don't work, but a Westerner should work and give them their money. I hear that working that job doesn't pay enough. There is none of the mentality that any job is better than no job.

Do they lie as much to other Filipinos or is it just to Westerners because we are outside of the tribe?

It is a tribal society and I see their obligation is to their family is first. I see fathers who don't mind their daughter being bar girls and putting in double time boom booming so they can have alcohol or some other non-necessity for the home. I see the girls go along with it to be a good little daughters.

My question is can these girls ever feel their obligation is to their BF or husband and not to their family first?[/QUOTE]

I'm now in the Phils and showed this post to me GF here. In her view it is a pretty accurate summary. On your final question, I think it rather depends on whether she is really in love with you or whether she is just pretending to be and sees you primarily as a walking ATM machine to benefit the whole family. I think for the bulk of westerner-Filipina relationships, the latter interpretation is nearer the truth. Even if she really does fal in love with you, she will see taking care of her immediate family, especially parents as a priority. Today at dinner the next table was occupied by a Western guy with a 25 strong Pinay extended family. My GF said she expected that the Westerner would need to pick up the bill for the whole lot.

Personally I see this as a big issue and would be very reluctant to marry a Filipina partly for this reason. I think if you are a university educated nd want an Asian wife say 15 years younger than yourself, it's much better to find a University educated Chinese girl. I've had 3 such serious GFs. Each has been able to hold down a serious job in the West, has had a much more compatible range of interests to me and has a small hard working and respectible family that has never asked me for a penny. Of course if you are a 60 year old looking for a cute 18 year old the Philippines is for sure the place to come, but don't be surprised if it turns out that she is primarily interested in you for the economic benefit of herself and her family.

[QUOTE=Big Johnson2]I have never used a dating site yet. How easy to bed are the girls on these sites? What % of the girls on the sites are P4P?

Also how easy are non bar girls to bed? Is it a promiscuous culture?[/QUOTE]

The majority of girls on most of the dating sites are looking for the elusive "serious relationship" leading to marriage however a significant minority are also open to short term relationships. If there is a significant age gap between you then she wil probably be hoping/expecting/requiring some sort of financial compensation. Typically 500P for short time (a few hours) or 1000P for all night will be seen as reasonable. For reference a girl working as a shopping assistant in a mall would typically earn around 250P a day. of course things vary. Some guys will pretend to be looking for a wife to persuade one of the "serious relationship" ones to bed. Sometimes this will be for "free" but in my experience the costs - dinners, presents etc involved in "free" sex have a tendency to converge on that for paid sex.

There are also a significant number of scammers on these sites (often ladyboys) along with cam girls primarily interested in earning money through cam shows, or girls loking for advanced payments of one sort or another eg to buy a fare to see you etc etc. There are also some girls, often with sexy photos in their profile who are looking for short term sex at higher rates (2000-5000 per night - almost always negotiable down to the lower level)

Personally I believe in being honest and frank about what I am looking for and expecting. In the major population centres you should have no trouble in finding loads of suitable candidates. Often the "naughty" girls will have other naughty sisters/cousins/friends so its relatively easy to organise 3, 4 or more somes if you wish. Its also relatively easy to find virgins willing to let you deflower them if that is your thing.

I personally found the bars in the Phils very boring and have spent minimal time in them. In the last 5 weeks I have only spent one night alone, otherwise always with one or more girls from dating sites or their friends/relatives. In general I have found the sex much more passionate and "real" than that available in the rest of SEA such as Thailand. Generally I make it clear through chat or text before we meet that assuming she likes me, she will end up in bed with me on that date. I am probably missing out on some nice girls being so direct, but given the numbers available it seems to work well. I ask the girls to meet me at my hotel and take her straight to my room. Some prefer to meet in a mall or something, but as Philipinas are always late this can be seriously tiresome.

I've just used Date In Asia and Tagged. Others have used PH, CB (both paid sites) or Person.com (focussed on cam chat). It's also useful to set up a Friendster account to check photos. You really only need to start chatting to girls a few days before you are comming (get their Yahoo messenger ID and cell no through the sites then chat on YM and get a Phils SIM card (best is Smart when you get here), but in practice for many guys the anticipation/preparation is much of the fun.

It is very difficult to judge who will be good and who not before you actually meet. There are loads of instances of guys spending months cultivating particular girls only to find there is no chemistry between them whereas the one they meet by accident or had not rated turns out to be a gem. Some girls seem to act as de facto mama sans for their bunch of friends. I've made very specific requests before now (18-23, slim, cute, no baby, horny) and just been asked OK how many do you want?

This saving face and lying is unbelievable. I met a girl on Date in Asia a few months ago while I was in the Philippines. We became close (sex after a few dates, she said I was only her second sex partner, after her first Pinoy bf) and we went online one day to check out each others profile, just for fun. We exchanged passwords and then never talked about it again. Of course I changed my pw the next day, and she still has the same pw for everything(email, friendster, job sites, ect).

So I was able to take some notes before she deleted old emails. Well there was this one conversation with a guy from Asia who basically promised her the world(she had a very sick relative, who has since died) before they actually met. Eventually he came to visit her, had a great time with her, then dumped her shortly afterwards. She even mentioned she was afraid she might be pregnant in one of her emails to him.

My point? I have asked her many times if she has had any other sex partners besides me and the original Pinoy Trail Blazer. She would always say no, lying directlly to my face (or web cam). I then asked her if she chats with any other guys, just to see if she would lie again, and she lied to me saying no others.

Well after those 2 blantant lies, she will repeat a thousand times that she is not a "lier girl".

This girl went throught the trouble of deleting all her emails in DAI after she read them, but she forgot to delete all of her Sent emails, where she is asking guys to chat and even asked one guy if he was looking for a nice wife.

At first I thought Dragon Slayer was exagerating when he says all Pinays lie, but I have concluded it is true, at least the ones I have first met on the internet. The saying "saving face" is so true. Every Pinay that I put to the test by asking a question that I new the answer to already, lied to me if it would make them look bad, especialy if it was sexual. Most of the time if I showed the proof of their lie, they would say that did not want to ' upset me or they were ashamed"

To qoute GE, "You can have a great time here, and you can indulge yourself in your wildest fantasies, so long as you remember that most of the time they're fantasies and nothing more. This is not your culture and it's essential to keep that always at the forefront of both of your brains." This should be printed and hung on the wall of the Manila Airport Immigration counter for all men to read.


Of course, of all of the girls I met on my last trip, I only told one girl the full truth about how many other girls I had met, and she was the one hooker met.

[QUOTE=Bob Bowie]This saving face and lying is unbelievable. I met a girl on Date in Asia a few months ago while I was in the Philippines. We became close (sex after a few dates, she said I was only her second sex partner, after her first Pinoy bf) and we went online one day to check out each others profile, just for fun. We exchanged passwords and then never talked about it again. Of course I changed my pw the next day, and she still has the same pw for everything(email, friendster, job sites, ect).

[/QUOTE]

I agree that the vast majority of Pinay girls lie, but this is in part explained by the wildly unrealistic expectations (or maybe perceived expectations) of many guys. Probably only about 10% of the guys who chat to girls on the dating sites will ever actually show up in the Phils. Of those, very few will actually meet or contact more than 10% of the girls they have had conversations with. There is therefore probably a sub 1% chance that any online contact will actually lead to a physical meeting yet some guys seem to want to believe the fantasy that the girl has only had one prior BF and is only in contact with him. For the girl placing all her chips on this one guy actually showing up and actually getting on with him would be frankly stupid in most cases yet this is apparently what some guys want to hear - and therefore the story that many girls tell all prospective guys.

[QUOTE=GregLondon]I agree that the vast majority of Pinay girls lie, but this is in part explained by the wildly unrealistic expectations (or maybe perceived expectations) of many guys. .[/QUOTE]

I agree, they do not put all there egg in one basket, hoping the one guy they have been chatting to will come and take them away to the promised land (Detroit ?)

I have found that the Pinays lie so easily and effortless to everyone, including family. I have asked girls what their parents will say to her when she returns home after spending the night with me. They respond "I just tell them we had separate rooms or beds, they believe me".

I believe this is part of the "saving face mentality" The girls Parents probably know the white American is not going to fly all the way accross the world to just to sit and watch wwowowee reruns with their little Angel all night.

I notice the male Pinoys find it realy hard to directly admit they were wrong, I just don't push the issue unless it is something really important.

For fun, go ask Pinoys who will win the fight tonight and if it will it be by a knock out or decision. Go back tomorroow and confront those that picked wrong, and watch them back track. Ps. you may get stabbed if Pacman loses.

I had an experience like you where a girl I had dated gave me her Date In Asia id and password, because I wanted to see her profile and she said she had nothing to hide. I was surprised at the lack of follow through she got from men. Lame messages and nothing ever coming of there Emails.

I had a second much different experience with another girl on DIA that said she was looking for a husband. I found what you were describing. Tons and tons of lying had been going on. She had another boyfriend while she was suppose to be truthful to me, of course this is while I was away. And tons of other lying about her fidelity to me. Her answer to me was she didn't think I loved her because I didn't call her often enough and I only sent her money occasionally. It makes you wonder if a girl like this could ever marry a man and be faithful or would she always be looking for something better? Are Filipino girls faithful when they are married?

[QUOTE=GregLondon]
I personally found the bars in the Phils very boring and have spent minimal time in them. In the last 5 weeks I have only spent one night alone, otherwise always with one or more girls from dating sites or their friends/relatives. In general I have found the sex much more passionate and "real" than that available in the rest of SEA such as Thailand. Generally I make it clear through chat or text before we meet that assuming she likes me, she will end up in bed with me on that date. I am probably missing out on some nice girls being so direct, but given the numbers available it seems to work well. I ask the girls to meet me at my hotel and take her straight to my room. Some prefer to meet in a mall or something, but as Philipinas are always late this can be seriously tiresome.
[/QUOTE]

Thank you for the detailed answer. It was very informative. Are these girls that are coming over and know that you want sex expecting money? Do you discuss this upfront?

If so they are P4P just like bar girls, only you find them in a different way. Right? I know you can go to LA Cafe or discos in Thailand and pick up girls and bring them home with you too.

I think you're doing the right thing, being up front and telling them what you want. Why waste your time on a bunch of dinners if she will never sleep with you.

I find the ones that want to be your girl friend don't ask for money up front. They are smart and know that by being your girl friend they will get a lot more money that way.

I have a girl right now in Cebu that I have traveled with twice in the PI. She really did seem like an innocent girl. She even said she was. Of course I don't believe it. She is still on DIA where I meet her in November. One time we were chatting on YM and I asked her if she has been on DIA lately. She said no and that she could not figure out how to cancel her account (yeah, right). As we were chatting I checked her DIA page (which I have bookmarked) and she was logged on as we were chatting! Another time I texted her to go to the internet so we could chat and she said she can't go because she dosen't have any money. Not believing her story I checked her account and yes, she was logged in!! Unbelieveable! I never bring up DIA and I occasionally check it because I use it as a tattle tale just for these reasons.

Actually, I really don't care if they lie to me. Afterall, I lie to them. Just as long as you know they are doing it and act accordingly. I don't think you can really trust them when you are 8,000 miles away. Do you expect her to be waiting in her province like a good little girl waiting for you to come back some day to see her?

Southbound69