German FKK Clubs - Lounge and chat area

[QUOTE=Takedown;2163059]I do not have much experience with Rimming and the topic has been hijacked by guys who love their assholes played with.[/QUOTE]Ass play is more porno, pervert and intimate. Don't knock it until your have tried it.

Where do you go for a dump when you explained that you sleep in your rental car?

[QUOTE=DeltaIndigo;2163056]I have never ever ever had a girl rim me who would not kiss me. This makes perfect sense, in fact rimming is seen as far more intimate an act by some girls. I have had many girls kiss me who would not rim me and I also have had some girls spontaneously rim me without asking.

One German girl in the Globe who was an enthusiastic kisser who licked my area underneath my testicles still said she could not rim me because that was too intimate. So my experiences are identical to yours.

Rimming without kissing, never ever happened to me.[/QUOTE]Yeah. So good getting rimjob. She has to kiss you afterwards.

[QUOTE=BaltiX;2162908]I think that EU resolution is non-binding IIRC. Anyways I don't think a country like Germany will make prostitution illegal for a number of reasons. The countries that adapted the Swedish model are those that strongly opposed prostitution for years or decades, with the exception of Canada. Of course it hasn't stopped prostitution and outside of Sweden enforcement seems weak. Toronto and Montreal has many escort agencies and massage parlors that advertise online and France has a big underground escort scene. Besides I think more people and organizations are starting to recognize sex work as legitimate and there is been growing criticism towards the Swedish model on prostitution.[/QUOTE]Since Germany decriminalized in 2002, have any other countries in EU followed suit? Since Swedish adopted its model in 1999, which countries have followed their example? Norway, Iceland, Northern Ireland, France, and Ireland. So Swedish model seems to have more momentum.

Prostitution obviously still exists in Sweden. Aren't underground scenes generally more expensive? Is France more expensive now than it was before the 2016 reform?

The primary reason to decriminalize in DE and NL was to protect WGs (more benefits, more rights, and stop human-traf problem). Many think that decriminalization has not helped. Seems to me the 2017 laws are like chemotherapy. In other words, more aggressive treatment to eradicate the cancer. If that fails, they may decide to amputate I. E. Adopt the Swedish model.

[QUOTE=Takedown;2163059]I will amend my statement to only CIM as I do not have much experience with Rimming and the topic has been hijacked by guys who love their assholes played with.

The original point was why girls do not kiss but will do other nasty things like take CIM. Point was that attraction matters.

Again 3 easy names of girls who don't kiss or only baby kiss but will happily take your load in her mouth: Athena, Estephania, Lily of Sharks.[/QUOTE]No hijacking needed — was your own statement. You always walk back your own words?

CIM is an extra. Not the same thing at all.

Attraction might do wonders outside the club. Inside, the only language is Euros.

Bad breath probably explains their reluctance to kiss as much as FoI (fear of intimacy).

[QUOTE=Jnpr30;2163331]Bad breath probably explains their reluctance to kiss as much as FoI (fear of intimacy).[/QUOTE]The movie pretty woman began this trend originally, but some girls still do DFK and in the worst case, in FKK, money can fix most obstacle, the problem is girls want to charge every thing to maximize their profit and guys do not want to pay more than standard rate or decrease the cost of getting as much as possible from girls LOL.

In the worst case, scenario, we got Globe Zurich among other clubs in Zurich where we just pay the higher standard rate if we are willing to and negotiation is already conducted by house rule.

Whatta wonderful world we live in where we pay reasonable amount of money and we get first night of honeymoon sex as much as we want with girls around 20 to 25 years old and they look actually stunning contrary to the old image of brothels where we did not get girls to this beauty level. Times change and beauty level improved a lot comparison to before. LU was better between 2009 till 2015 though, but still I cannot complain about beauty level at all, just need more new girls who are stunners.

[QUOTE=DeltaIndigo;2163056]
Rimming without kissing, never ever happened to me.[/QUOTE]Hmmm. This is a tough one. I have to say that every girl I have ever rimmed I have also kissed but the order was Kiss first and then rim. I have had a few that I rimmed refuse to kiss after the rim job. But what am I to do? I am a blow job and I have to go down on them. I see a beautiful woman and I want to put her in my mouth. I revert back to infancy. The more beautiful the women the more disgusting body part I want to put in my mouth.

6 - 7- suck tits.

7 - 8 - Eat pussy.

8+ - I am licking asshole.

I don't understand it myself.

[QUOTE=HungryStud101;2163375]Hmmm. This is a tough one. I have to say that every girl I have ever rimmed I have also kissed but the order was Kiss first and then rim. I have had a few that I rimmed refuse to kiss after the rim job. But what am I to do? I am a blow job and I have to go down on them. I see a beautiful woman and I want to put her in my mouth. I revert back to infancy. The more beautiful the women the more disgusting body part I want to put in my mouth.

6 - 7- suck tits.

7 - 8 - Eat pussy.

8+ - I am licking asshole.

I don't understand it myself.[/QUOTE]I actually do understand it. I would say the more gorgeous the girl and her ass.

[QUOTE=RogueNation;2163258]Kissing is considered very intimate by some / many girls. So they will not kiss a (or at least not every) client but only their BF. It's not because they are afraid to get feelings for the client. That's why they do CIM, rimjobs, allow many practices men would consider a lot more disgusting than kissing. 15 years ago Daniela at Oase would DFK me when she was single and not kiss at all when she had a BF. Was my first question each time we met: Single or not?[/QUOTE]I would just have to end this guessing you will agree to disagree. But then all I hear is this:

[URL]https://youtu.be/8AIwaSD9Sco[/URL]

P.S.: Passion is not the same as intimate fluid or dirt exchanges. One is hormonal. The other one is physical. And sex is also physical, so a rimjob or a CIM as you claim are the same, are not. Definitely not. And invalid arguments.

[QUOTE=Bitumen;2163295]Ass play is more porno, pervert and intimate. Don't knock it until your have tried it.

Where do you go for a dump when you explained that you sleep in your rental car?[/QUOTE]You dump before you leave the FKK. Or you hold it in? Normally it only means 3-6 hours outside of an FKK if you leave at closing and enter when they open. Most people should be able to shut their hut unless they are 300 pounds and eat a horse every day.

[QUOTE=Bitumen;2163295]Ass play is more porno, pervert and intimate. Don't knock it until your have tried it.

Where do you go for a dump when you explained that you sleep in your rental car?[/QUOTE]1. Just poking fun, no worries.

2. I'm sure everyone else here will be happy tonhear about my pooping habits, LOL. Being regular helps. I'm a post morning coffee pooper. But making sure you're empty before leaving the club is probably not a bad idea. Anyway, it's really only 8-9 hours per day not being in the club, one can pass enough gas to keep from implosion. Worst case scenario, drive to a petrol station.

[QUOTE=Pistons;2163243]But today many think of Latin america when one says Latin perhaps. And the Latinos in America may just be further away from the original Latin (italic) population than any Romanians are.[/QUOTE]So seems like that are most people just don't understand culture then. As an American, I can tell yoh that Romanians behave very similar to Latinos from South and Central America, more similar than to Italians.

[QUOTE=Jnpr30;2163305]No hijacking needed was your own statement. You always walk back your own words?

CIM is an extra. Not the same thing at all.

Attraction might do wonders outside the club. Inside, the only language is Euros.[/QUOTE]No I don't. But I understand that many internet trollers like to harp on impertinent details. My mistake for not anticipating accordingly.

I just like to talk in practical terms rather than technicalities as the ass-licking comment was used for descriptive effect.

If you think attraction does nothing then I guess you've never been able to take a WG out for no charge or get free services which are usually extra, then I understand your POV. Some of us have so we have different experiences.

[QUOTE=McAdonis;2163236]In theory, you are correct. But you are making the assumption that men can be honest with themselves. [/QUOTE]First all, this is not a theory, this is my first-hand experience after mongering for long time. When I posted anything here, I never have used any theory from textbook or somewhere and I never will. I always use my personal experience about our topics. Whether men can be honest with themselves is another topic to discuss.

[QUOTE=McAdonis;2163236]

The amount of work to "convince" the WG may be insurmountable. [/QUOTE]It depends on who the monger is. If the monger is much better than the WG, I. E. If in real life he can get MUCH-BETTER-looking girls than the WG, the convincing work would be much easier.

[QUOTE=McAdonis;2163236] The fact that she knows you are an experienced monger and you met her in a brothel, that is already two strikes against you. Simply being a "monger" implies some non-desirable character traits. Or implies you may lack value in the normal mating market. [/QUOTE]Basically I agree with you on this except that it depends on what is monger's objective. If the monger only looks for romantic involvement with the WG spiritually, I. E. Not going out for diner, watching movies and so on, just spiritually in the FKK clubs, then the monger achieves his objective. Yes, if the monger looks for real traditional relationship (like normal romantic relationship in real life), it is difficult unless the monger is much better than the WG as I explained above.

[QUOTE=RogueNation;2163258]
Kissing is considered very intimate by some / many girls. So they will not kiss a (or at least not every) client but only their BF. It's not because they are afraid to get feelings for the client. That's why they do CIM, rimjobs, allow many practices men would consider a lot more disgusting than kissing. 15 years ago Daniela at Oase would DFK me when she was single and not kiss at all when she had a BF. Was my first question each time we met: Single or not?[/QUOTE]Correct. I would add that in many cases their boyfriends don't allow the WGs to kiss (and make anal sex) as the condition to allow them to work as the WGs, because their boyfriends want to feel they are special and unique to the WGs and can get kiss and anal sex with the WGs which nobody else can get.

[QUOTE=Takedown;2163064] This seems to be a coherent, well thought out view on monger-WG relations. Much better than theories that attempt to apply the blanket of mediocrity on everyone.[/QUOTE]Thank you for your compliment.

[QUOTE=McAdonis;2163236]The amount of work to "convince" the WG may be insurmountable.[/QUOTE]Depends on what you mean by insurmountable. Marriage? Or a few month fling? Some free AO? You and I both know from our personal experiences that winning a WG's affection, if only temporarily, is entirely possible.

[QUOTE=RogueNation;2163258]At Takedown: The only EE girls in the clubs (yes, they are the majority but haven't always been) with a Latin language are Romanians. Bulgaria, Czech, Poland, Hungary etc. Do have a very different background regarding language.

EE girls and Latinas have very different behavior & culture. Don't know how you come to the conclusion that they are similar.[/QUOTE]In addition to my own experiences, I'm not alone in my belief that Romanians are Latin. Here:

[URL] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latin_peoples[/URL]

[QUOTE=McAdonis;2163302]Since Germany decriminalized in 2002, have any other countries in EU followed suit? Since Swedish adopted its model in 1999, which countries have followed their example? Norway, Iceland, Northern Ireland, France, and Ireland. So Swedish model seems to have more momentum.

Prostitution obviously still exists in Sweden. Aren't underground scenes generally more expensive? Is France more expensive now than it was before the 2016 reform?

The primary reason to decriminalize in DE and NL was to protect WGs (more benefits, more rights, and stop human-traf problem). Many think that decriminalization has not helped. Seems to me the 2017 laws are like chemotherapy. In other words, more aggressive treatment to eradicate the cancer. If that fails, they may decide to amputate I. E. Adopt the Swedish model.[/QUOTE]Something to consider, we all probably agree that politics in capitalist societies are pretty financially driven. The more clubs and Eros centers that open up, the bigger the German prostitution machine grows. Their physical presence and tax presence also grows. I don't know if these other countries that adopted the anti prostitution stance had quite the infrastructure and network that is present in Germany. It would be a big public ordeal to shut down these thousands of businesses.

Honestly, I think it is more likely that people in countries like Romania garner more wealth over the next 2-3 decades and start sending less WGs before Germany criminalizes prostitution again. From what I know about the modern, educated Romanian women and in context of 21st century women's lib trends, women in Romania will be a big part in turning that country around. That's just a personal gut feeling. I have no statistics to back that up.

As far as criminalization, if anything, local governments will have a bigger role to play. They may pass more laws and regulations that increase operation cost, impose logistical obstacles, or curtail profits and revenue streams. In the US, a common practice is to prohibit strip clubs from selling alcohol or going full nude. Some cities just would not approve liquor licenses altogether regardless of official laws. These practices often stopped new clubs from opening and caused the slow demise of the current establishments.

Either way, the FKK scene easily has at least a decade to thrive and that's as far as I care to look into the future regarding this hobby.

[QUOTE=RogueNation;2162545]They don't kiss because they might feel attraction to guys they have sex with? I hope you don't really believe that or you probably will believe other BS the girls tell you as well.
[/QUOTE][QUOTE=Jnpr30;2163305]Attraction might do wonders outside the club. Inside, the only language is Euros.[/QUOTE][QUOTE=McAdonis;2163236]The amount of work to "convince" the WG may be insurmountable. [/QUOTE]Your collective arguments, those quoted above and some others not quoted, could only be supported if no working girl has ever had a romantic relationship with a client. I'the hope you guys know that cannot possibly be true. In fact, it is definitely not true. I agree with McA that the odds are stacked against you and with Bfsie that one must know his own worth, but romantic attraction from the girl's side happens. It probably happens every day in some club in Germany.

[QUOTE=RogueNation;2163258]At

EE girls and Latinas have very different behavior & culture. Don't know how you come to the conclusion that they are similar.[/QUOTE]Well there is one thing that these two have in common.

They fuck very good LOL.

[QUOTE=Bfsie;2163469]I would add that in many cases their boyfriends don't allow the WGs to kiss (and make anal sex) as the condition to allow them to work as the WGs, because their boyfriends want to feel they are special and unique to the WGs and can get kiss and anal sex with the WGs which nobody else can get.[/QUOTE]When editing away your 'correct', you are spot on.

[QUOTE=Takedown;2163478]In addition to my own experiences, I'm not alone in my belief that Romanians are Latin. Here:

[URL] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latin_peoples[/URL][/QUOTE]Maybe you should also read the links you quote. This is. As I did. Referring to the language mainly and not to nowadays behavior or culture. Plus you were addressing EE countries which in majority are not Roman / Latin.

"The term "Latin" is used in reference to European people whose cultures are particularly Roman-derived, generally including the use of Romance languages. Strong Roman legal and cultural traditions characterize these nations. Latin Europe is a major subdivision of Europe, along with Germanic-speaking Europe and Slavic Europe."

[QUOTE=Pistons;2163579]When editing away your 'correct', you are spot on.[/QUOTE]You should learn from me about politeness.

[QUOTE=SamsonMonger;2163500]Your collective arguments, those quoted above and some others not quoted, could only be supported if no working girl has ever had a romantic relationship with a client. I'the hope you guys know that cannot possibly be true. In fact, it is definitely not true. I agree with McA that the odds are stacked against you and with Bfsie that one must know his own worth, but romantic attraction from the girl's side happens. It probably happens every day in some club in Germany.[/QUOTE]No denying at all that it does happen. Just denying that the fear of falling in love with a client is the reason for not kissing.

[QUOTE=Bfsie;2163677]You should learn from me about politeness.[/QUOTE]So basically we can compare your 'correct' comment to what people normally say ahead of a 'but'? If such is the case, I don't consider that politeness.

[QUOTE=McAdonis;2163302]Since Germany decriminalized in 2002, have any other countries in EU followed suit? Since Swedish adopted its model in 1999, which countries have followed their example? Norway, Iceland, Northern Ireland, France, and Ireland. So Swedish model seems to have more momentum.

Prostitution obviously still exists in Sweden. Aren't underground scenes generally more expensive? Is France more expensive now than it was before the 2016 reform?

The primary reason to decriminalize in DE and NL was to protect WGs (more benefits, more rights, and stop human-traf problem). Many think that decriminalization has not helped. Seems to me the 2017 laws are like chemotherapy. In other words, more aggressive treatment to eradicate the cancer. If that fails, they may decide to amputate I. E. Adopt the Swedish model.[/QUOTE]Prostitution in Germany and Netherlands was decriminalized and / or tolerated before 2002, even during Fascism. What happened is they imposed regulations. There are people who want to adapt the Swedish model, but they are a small minority. Prostitution is not a high priority topic anyways in most European countries IIRC. Denmark thought about adapting the Swedish model but went against it 6 years ago after coming to conclusion that it will not eradicate prostitution and protect sex works from harm. Same in the UK. In fact the UK favors decriminalizing prostitution.

[QUOTE=Takedown;2163489]As far as criminalization, if anything, local governments will have a bigger role to play. They may pass more laws and regulations that increase operation cost, impose logistical obstacles, or curtail profits and revenue streams.[/QUOTE]As far as obstacles, Germany has some as well with regard to zoning: "98% of Germany geographically, and over 90% of German towns and cities are restricted areas, and over two-thirds of German residents live in a city where commercial sex is prohibited."

Even though prostitution is completely legal, it is still stigmatized. Tolerated more than welcomed. It's in the industry's best interest that everybody sees the recent reforms as "effective".

[QUOTE=SamsonMonger;2163441]No I don't. But I understand that many internet trollers like to harp on impertinent details. My mistake for not anticipating accordingly.

I just like to talk in practical terms rather than technicalities as the ass-licking comment was used for descriptive effect.

If you think attraction does nothing then I guess you've never been able to take a WG out for no charge or get free services which are usually extra, then I understand your POV. Some of us have so we have different experiences.[/QUOTE]Haha. SM or TD or whatever. Why the need for 2 avatars? (My 2 cents — I like Samson better). Anyway, your words are there, in all their glory just 2 pages ago. You might think blaming others (for pointing that you keep walking back your own words) makes you an alpha male, but in the real world we think that is silly and sad.

I don't cheat girls out of paying what's rightfully theirs. That's just me. And I have no illusion that this is strictly a commercial transaction. But if you want to believe all the BS a girls fakes in the club, no one will stop you.

[QUOTE=SamsonMonger;2163438]So seems like that are most people just don't understand culture then. As an American, I can tell yoh that Romanians behave very similar to Latinos from South and Central America, more similar than to Italians.[/QUOTE]Better to list character traits, behaviors, or habits, where you see similarities or provide examples. Behavior can also be attributed to age or economic background, or life experiences, like being a migrant population. Culture can also mean food, music, art. Romania has fallen under different spheres of influence: Austro-Hungarian, Ottoman, Russian. That makes it unique from Italy, Spain, Portugal, and France.

Linguistically, Romanian is without a doubt Latin. They are geographically separated from the other Latin languages due to invasions from the Slavic tribes following disintegration of Byzantine Empire. Linguistics just suggest a common lineage at one time. The language of modern-day Turks and Hungarian is believe to have come from Central Asia, only about millennium ago. But culturally and genetically they are very different from the people that live in these regions now.

[QUOTE=RogueNation;2163638]Maybe you should also read the links you quote. This is. As I did. Referring to the language mainly and not to nowadays behavior or culture. Plus you were addressing EE countries which in majority are not Roman / Latin.

"The term "Latin" is used in reference to European people whose cultures are particularly Roman-derived, generally including the use of Romance languages. Strong Roman legal and cultural traditions characterize these nations. Latin Europe is a major subdivision of Europe, along with Germanic-speaking Europe and Slavic Europe."[/QUOTE]1. I think we comprehend english differently. It says straight out, "people whose cultures are Roman-derived" and explicitly lists Romanian people. It goes on to explain the historical relationship of Rome to their conquered lands, including present day Romania. Cut and dry from my POV.

2. Either way, regarding modern times, language is a pretty major part of culture. It directly influences cultures and the way people think.

[URL]https://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2010/07/yes-language-does-shape-culture/340451[/URL]

[URL]https://www.encyclopedia.com/social-sciences-and-law/sociology-and-social-reform/sociology-general-terms-and-concepts/theory[/URL]

Even in modern nations, their languages reflect their stereotyped national identities. From the highly structured but elegant Japanese, the rule oriented German, laid back and loose American English, the intricate but chaotic Chinese dialects, and of course the passionate Latin romance languages.

For further supporting evidence, there was even a phenomenon when Romanians became obsessed with Latin American soap operas because they felt a strong connection to them as they tried to obtain a unique identity after the fall of communism.

[URL]https://www.calvertjournal.com/opinion/show/4322/romania-latin-american-soaps-pepe-90s[/URL]

3. You addressed EE but the reality is that EE in FKKs mean 80-90% Romanian. That is barely relevant to the original point of this conversation.

[QUOTE=McAdonis;2163728] But culturally and genetically they are very different from the people that live in these regions now.[/QUOTE]Indeed, the small population of szekely hungarians in transylvania has retained more central siberian dna than hungarian hungarians who are almost completely mixed with neighbouring slavic populations due to intermarriges. The argument is that the szekely live in a very rugged area with hills around them, while Hungary is stretched out on an open plain. So indeed, you are right here. Also serbs south of the novi sad region in the north blame the ottomans for why they are shorter in height than novi sad serbs or croatians. They say the ottoman soldiers had their way with serb women. However, Romania was never a ottoman state. It was just a vassall, so no ottoman DNA there. But some influence probably to a lesser extent.

Personally I consider the ottomans to have done a good job in Bulgaria and serbia if they are to blame for the shorter height. But that is just me, LOL.

[QUOTE=Jnpr30;2163723]Haha. SM or TD or whatever. Why the need for 2 avatars? (My 2 cents I like Samson better). Anyway, your words are there, in all their glory just 2 pages ago. You might think blaming others (for pointing that you keep walking back your own words) makes you an alpha male, but in the real world we think that is silly and sad.

I don't cheat girls out of paying what's rightfully theirs. That's just me. And I have no illusion that this is strictly a commercial transaction. But if you want to believe all the BS a girls fakes in the club, no one will stop you.[/QUOTE]Failing to see the point of the original post makes this "rebuttal" just useless trolling, just taking away from then conversation at hand.

Cheat girls? LOL, they are autonomous people who make their own decisions. Or perhaps that comment just reflects a mindset that WGs are only just that, WGs and nothing more.

We mongers choose the path where we are at the privileged state of born to fuck, and FKK girls are in state or phase of their life of boron to be fucked.

So let fuck them hardcore and dump their ass to sorry ass husband.

We monger fucks, FKK girls get fucked and fucked LOL.

There is nothing more to it, there is nothing less to it, that is FKK culture where we pro mongers fuck many different cultures in many different ways LOL.

However, I always wonder what happen to these girls we fuck in FKK once they retire from FKK? They just go back to normal lives and convince some sorry ass guys that they were angels working in hospitality industry in Germany? LOL If so, scary world we men live in ain't it.

It is like buying Honda NSX with 200 thousand km but with Ferrari sign on it with rounded up meter of back to 500 km and told it is La Ferrari and you pay 1.5 million us dollars for it without knowing the truth LOL.

We ride these FKK girls while they were still in early 20's and while they were less km and we know these girls are Honda nsx and not la Ferrari even they claim to be Italian LOL.

[QUOTE=RogueNation;2163682]No denying at all that it does happen. Just denying that the fear of falling in love with a client is the reason for not kissing.[/QUOTE]To be clear, I just meant attraction rather than love.

[QUOTE=Pistons;2163734]Also serbs south of the novi sad region in the north blame the ottomans for why they are shorter in height than novi sad serbs or croatians. They say the ottoman soldiers had their way with serb women. However, Romania was never a ottoman state. It was just a vassall, so no ottoman DNA there. But some influence probably to a lesser extent.[/QUOTE]Indeed, you are right. And the fact that Romania was just a vassall under the Ottomans (except a strip along the coast I may add which does include Constansa) was later the reason the Russians skipped Romania after beating the ottomans in the Russian ottoman war. So Romania got to keep their romance language while the Russians created a belt on the far side of Romania, trying to kick out the ottomans from Europe. That is why we find short Russian looking girls in Bulgaria, Macedonia and Serbia. Not a bad mix I might add. And interestingly many Bulgarians due to the northern Russian past have fairer skin than most Romanians who came from further south (Italy). One example would be Laura at Oase, or Vicky at Sixsense. Definite Russian looks just with shorter height.

Personally I also find the Moldavian mix of Russian and romance to be quite interesting. Russians are known for kissing and cuddling, while Latinos are known for passion and emotions.

[QUOTE=SamsonMonger;2163799]To be clear, I just meant attraction rather than love.[/QUOTE]Indeed, and I might add:

[URL]https://www.eharmony.com/dating-advice/dating-issues/the-science-behind-a-first-kiss/[/URL]

Oxytocin: the hormone of attraction, but also of love.

[QUOTE=SamsonMonger;2163799]To be clear, I just meant attraction rather than love.[/QUOTE]In FKK, money will get you all the attention you want from girls, nothing else.

[QUOTE=Pistons;2163734]Indeed, the small population of szekely hungarians in transylvania has retained more central siberian dna than hungarian hungarians who are almost completely mixed with neighbouring slavic populations due to intermarriges. The argument is that the szekely live in a very rugged area with hills around them, while Hungary is stretched out on an open plain. So indeed, you are right here. Also serbs south of the novi sad region in the north blame the ottomans for why they are shorter in height than novi sad serbs or croatians. They say the ottoman soldiers had their way with serb women. However, Romania was never a ottoman state. It was just a vassall, so no ottoman DNA there. But some influence probably to a lesser extent.

Personally I consider the ottomans to have done a good job in Bulgaria and serbia if they are to blame for the shorter height. But that is just me, LOL.[/QUOTE]Interesting that Evolution presents itself so prominently and yet so many people deny it as a possibility. I read somewhere in the past that the two modern European countries with the least linguistic similarities to their neighboring countries were Finland and Hungary. This article also hinted at possible linguistic relationships between these two countries and some easter Adian countries. It's always nice to have the opportunity to view the superior offspring resulting from mixing cultures and DNA. The result from the migration of petite working girls from far off lands may be a recognizable decrease in height is notoriously tall countries like The Netherlands.

[QUOTE=Bfsie;2163469]Correct. I would add that in many cases their boyfriends don't allow the WGs to kiss (and make anal sex) as the condition to allow them to work as the WGs, because their boyfriends want to feel they are special and unique to the WGs and can get kiss and anal sex with the WGs which nobody else can get.[/QUOTE]Anal sex feel good. Nice and tight and warm.

[QUOTE=SamsonMonger;2163799]To be clear, I just meant attraction rather than love.[/QUOTE]What's wrong with attraction?

[QUOTE=SamsonMonger;2163500]....but romantic attraction from the girl's side happens. It probably happens every day in some club in Germany.[/QUOTE]Indeed plenty of working girls over 30 looking for a serious relationship to provide them with a soft landing in life. Girls past their prime, feeling they will hit the wall soon. Much less common with younger girls.

[QUOTE=XXL;2163971]Indeed plenty of working girls over 30 looking for a serious relationship to provide them with a soft landing in life. Girls past their prime, feeling they will hit the wall soon. Much less common with younger girls.[/QUOTE]I get this from my younger university friends who are girl recently, they are all about 30 now, I never wonder why they suddenly contact me after so many years because I kind of knew why LOL.

These girls never figured out that I am already married with my best wife in the world called German FKK LOL I got so many German wives, Romanian wives among other wives from all over Europe and apparently there are going to be even more wives coming to fuck me LOL My marriage to FKK is secret marriage, but I am loyal to my wife German FKK LOL.

Once you pop in German FKK, you cannot stop LOL.

[QUOTE=XXL;2163971]Indeed plenty of working girls over 30 looking for a serious relationship to provide them with a soft landing in life. Girls past their prime, feeling they will hit the wall soon. Much less common with younger girls.[/QUOTE]That's not "romantic attraction". That's attracted by money and a safe future.

[QUOTE=Takedown;2163730]1. I think we comprehend english differently. It says straight out, "people whose cultures are Roman-derived" and explicitly lists Romanian people. It goes on to explain the historical relationship of Rome to their conquered lands, including present day Romania. Cut and dry from my POV.

From the highly structured but elegant Japanese, the rule oriented German, laid back and loose American English, the intricate but chaotic Chinese dialects, and of course the passionate Latin romance languages.[/QUOTE]Americans are laid back and loose because of their language? It's a huge country, characteristics / cultures in New York are very different from Texas or Southern California. So much for language determining behavior.

[QUOTE=SamsonMonger;2163438]So seems like that are most people just don't understand culture then. As an American, I can tell yoh that Romanians behave very similar to Latinos from South and Central America, more similar than to Italians.[/QUOTE]Because you are American you are the one to judge if Romanians behave similar to Latinas from South / Central America? How many Romanian girls have you met and got to know? Not "fuck&go", but getting to know them personally, their life, culture, behavior?

[QUOTE=BaltiX;2163713]Prostitution in Germany and Netherlands was decriminalized and / or tolerated before 2002, even during Fascism. What happened is they imposed regulations. There are people who want to adapt the Swedish model, but they are a small minority. Prostitution is not a high priority topic anyways in most European countries IIRC. Denmark thought about adapting the Swedish model but went against it 6 years ago after coming to conclusion that it will not eradicate prostitution and protect sex works from harm. Same in the UK. In fact the UK favors decriminalizing prostitution.[/QUOTE]What is Swedish models? I see so many swede guys coming to German FKK, no tuting in Sweden or?

[QUOTE=XXL;2163971]Indeed plenty of working girls over 30 looking for a serious relationship to provide them with a soft landing in life. Girls past their prime, feeling they will hit the wall soon. Much less common with younger girls.[/QUOTE]Yes, one of the girls I met at Sharks. One of my favorites of the trip. She had just moved over from another club. We started talking about it. She said she was starting to get worried. Time moves quickly and she is still in the same place. She said she would like to have a family.

For us it's a hobby.

[QUOTE=McAdonis;2163728]Better to list character traits, behaviors, or habits, where you see similarities or provide examples. Behavior can also be attributed to age or economic background, or life experiences, like being a migrant population.[/QUOTE]Fair enough. Europeans nations living near the warm waters of the Mediterranean and Black Seas share a relaxed attitude that their northern and inland neighbors do not. Admintingly, the Balkans countries are not considered Latin but the Greek share cultural similarities to traditional Latin countries. Stereotyping, but attitudes on timekeeping and fiery women are parts of these cultures. Also admittingly, many other traits, often negative connotation, that I am thinking of are shared by cultures from less affluent backgrounds.

But we digress, the point of the original comment, pages ago, is that some posters of more modest backgrounds could better relate to 20 something year old Romanians than a 50 year old German guy or nerdy American dudes who've never spent more than a 10 minute drive through an American inner city.

[QUOTE=McAdonis;2163728] Culture can also mean food, music, art. Romania has fallen aunder different spheres of influence: Austro-Hungarian, Ottoman, Russian. That makes it unique from Italy, Spain, Portugal, and France.

Linguistically, Romanian is without a doubt Latin. They are geographically separated from the other Latin languages due to invasions from the Slavic tribes following disintegration of Byzantine Empire. Linguistics just suggest a common lineage at one time. The language of modern-day Turks and Hungarian is believe to have come from Central Asia, only about millennium ago. But culturally and genetically they are very different from the people that live in these regions now.[/QUOTE]No doubt that Romania is different than other European Latin countries due to geographic separation. Wikipedia article for "Latin People" and links for arguments supporting language's pivotal role in the development of culture have been presented several posts below.

[QUOTE=HungryStud101;2163999]Yes, one of the girls I met at Sharks. One of my favorites of the trip. She had just moved over from another club. We started talking about it. She said she was starting to get worried. Time moves quickly and she is still in the same place. She said she would like to have a family.

For us it's a hobby.[/QUOTE]Same experiences with 30+ yr old WGs, which often are best service providers. When chatting with them in the room, it may be best to stay clear of any topics which may trigger negative emotions in girl's mind. The worst experience I once had was after three 1 HR sessions over few days with a girl I take her to the room again and instead of normal session she immediately breaks down to tears and talks about all sorts of problems she had with her loverboy last night. I stayed an hour with her just talking, managed CIM at the end, but we both agreed before leaving the room on E50 price tag for such session. We continue to be friends, but I tend to limit my sessions with her to 1 time per week on a 2-week trip.

[QUOTE=RogueNation;2163988]Americans are laid back and loose because of their language? It's a huge country, characteristics / cultures in New York are very different from Texas or Southern California. So much for language determining behavior.[/QUOTE]Way to pick parts of the post and not address the main argument. No logical retort for the main argument I see. The American laid back stereotype is not simply because of the language, rather language plays a major role in development of thought process.

As for this distraction, the NY stereotype that you are referring to represents New York CITY. One of the most cosmopolitan cities in the world full of first, second, and third generation immigrants who speak a combine dozens of languages. That is very different from the rest of the State of New York and the rest of the United States. So yes, your argument picks one stereotype representing some people of one city in a country of 320 million.

[QUOTE=RogueNation;2163988]Because you are American you are the one to judge if Romanians behave similar to Latinas from South / Central America? How many Romanian girls have you met and got to know? Not "fuck&go", but getting to know them personally, their life, culture, behavior?[/QUOTE]Dozens. My previous Romanian girlfriend from Iasi, My cousin's wife and in-laws, 3 non mongering visits to Romania, Romanian friends in grad school, and the dozens of Romanian nurses that I have worked with in American hospitals.

Good enough for you?

[QUOTE=Bfsie;2163469]I would add that in many cases their boyfriends don't allow the WGs to make anal sex as the condition to allow them to work as the WGs, because their boyfriends want to feel they are special and unique to the WGs and can get anal sex with the WGs which nobody else can get.[/QUOTE]Well, there sure are a lot of cheating tutes then hahaha!

We are on quite a wild goose chase here. Trying to somehow persuade mongers that girls are "attracted" to <insert whatever characteristic that you think describes you best>. So, first it was muscular 35 year olds shacking up in cars which implies they are manning up. Then the theory morphed into "girls are attracted to alpha males because they were school yard bullies in the past". Then it was linguistic distance or proximity thereof. Now it is middle class upbringing. Give it a couple of more days, we will cover every pop psych theory lifted from C-grade men's magazines.

Try this. Euros. Flash them in front of WGs and tell me what she won't do that she might for one of the romantic lover boys above.

[QUOTE=Jnpr30;2164107]Try this. Euros. Flash them in front of WGs and tell me what she won't do that she might for one of the romantic lover boys above.[/QUOTE]But that is also a theory. Can love be bought? Indeed it can, it is called prostitution. The reason money was created in the first place. I already coverted this.

[QUOTE=MrHo;2163993]What is Swedish models? I see so many swede guys coming to German FKK, no tuting in Sweden or?[/QUOTE]Anything but a supermodel. LOL.

[QUOTE=Jnpr30;2164107]Try this. Euros. Flash them in front of WGs and tell me what she won't do that she might for one of the romantic lover boys above.[/QUOTE]For many girls, BBFS.

[QUOTE=SamsonMonger;2163433]1. Just poking fun, no worries.

2. I'm sure everyone else here will be happy tonhear about my pooping habits, LOL. Being regular helps. I'm a post morning coffee pooper. But making sure you're empty before leaving the club is probably not a bad idea. Anyway, it's really only 8-9 hours per day not being in the club, one can pass enough gas to keep from implosion. Worst case scenario, drive to a petrol station.[/QUOTE]Thank you.

I am a first thing I wake up type of guy so I need to be close to facilities.

I was thinking a McDonald's as well as a gas station or doing it in the woods like 🐻 bear. Bring some wet wipes.

In the end hotel or your downtown Frankfurt apartment works best.

[QUOTE=Takedown;2164138]For many girls, BBFS.[/QUOTE]A regular German guest offers 500 bucks to new girls for BBFS.

Usual price is 100 bucks extra.

For some love can be bought.

[QUOTE=RogueNation;2163962]What's wrong with attraction?[/QUOTE]Attraction = Feelings for many girls. But most don't want feelings attached to the job.

[QUOTE=Bitumen;2164156]For some love can be bought.[/QUOTE]For some interpretations of love, true.

[QUOTE=Bitumen;2164156]A regular German guest offers 500 bucks to new girls for BBFS.

Usual price is 100 bucks extra.

For some love can be bought.[/QUOTE]BBFS is 100 euro extra in FKK for some girls? This I did not know.

Roughly a third of girls do bare back fuck. More than a half do anal. More than a few do bare back anal. For the right amount of money.

No I will not name names.

[QUOTE=Takedown;2164054]Dozens. My previous Romanian girlfriend from Iasi, My cousin's wife and in-laws, 3 non mongering visits to Romania, Romanian friends in grad school, and the dozens of Romanian nurses that I have worked with in American hospitals.

Good enough for you?[/QUOTE]Good enough? As o was quoting SD and not you and so obviously referring to his and not your statement. No.

[QUOTE=Takedown;2164138]For many girls, BBFS.[/QUOTE]BBFS- not my game.

A friend said of one WG "she is just a [blue][Deleted by Admin][/blue]". I asked "what's the difference between a who $re and a [blue][Deleted by Admin][/blue]? His reply "A [blue][Deleted by Admin][/blue] fucks everyone in the room; a [blue][Deleted by Admin][/blue] fucks everyone in the room except you".

I will let you decide whether these WGs giving special somethings to their romantic lover boys are [blue][Deleted by Admin][/blue] or [blue][Deleted by Admin][/blue].

Jnpr30,

Basing a definition on what some friend thinks may not always be smart.

I liked this one better:

[blue][Deleted by Admin][/blue]: A **** with good business sense and financial responsibility.

[blue][Deleted by Admin][/blue]: Originally used to describe women;.

Now a days literally can be said to anyone. Anytime. Anyplace for any reason.

"wutup [blue][Deleted by Admin][/blue]!

"you guys are [blue][Deleted by Admin][/blue]!

"[blue][Deleted by Admin][/blue]!

Alternatively:

Beautiful.

Individual.

That.

Causes.

Hardons.

Oh, and you might then ask, what is a [blue][Deleted by Admin][/blue]?

Answer: a woman with the morals of a man.

Hey, what's wrong with our morals? LOL!

[QUOTE=Chongmal;2163902]I read somewhere in the past that the two modern European countries with the least linguistic similarities to their neighboring countries were Finland and Hungary. This article also hinted at possible linguistic relationships between these two countries and some easter Adian countries. It's always nice to have the opportunity to view the superior offspring resulting from mixing cultures and DNA.
[/QUOTE]Hungary was founded in the 9th century by the Magyars whose ancestral homeland was near the Ural mountains. Apparently, the Magyars were pushed west by nomads twice, before they finally settled at their third home, present day-Hungary. There the Magyars conquered the local population, who spoke some form of Romanian. So you have mixing happening in multiple locations. Hungarian language's closest relative is Mansi, and it is spoken by an Asiatic-looking people 2500 miles to the northeast. [URL]http://www.languagesoftheworld.info/language-families/on-magyar-migration.html[/URL].

[QUOTE=Chongmal;2163902]The result from the migration of petite working girls from far off lands may be a recognizable decrease in height is notoriously tall countries like The Netherlands.
[/QUOTE]The Romanian WGs have conquered their taller German counterparts rather easily!

According to this article, a century ago, the Dutch were among the shortest people in Europe. Also mentions that the height of Northern Europeans has fluctuated. Around the time of Charlemagne they were quite tall. Then 1000 years in the 1700's, they shrunk, only averaging "5 feet tall 100 pounds". Now of course they are among the tallest in the world. [URL]https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2004/04/05/the-height-gap[/URL].

[QUOTE=RogueNation;2164196]Good enough? As o was quoting SD and not you and so obviously referring to his and not your statement. No.[/QUOTE]How about now Bub?

"Dozens. My previous Romanian girlfriend from Iasi, My cousin's wife and in-laws, 3 non mongering visits to Romania, Romanian friends in grad school, and the dozens of Romanian nurses that I have worked with in American hospitals.

Good enough for you?

I see that the original discussion has been conveniently ignored. Please address at your convenience.

[QUOTE=Jnpr30;2164203]BBFS- not my game.

A friend said of one WG "she is just a[/QUOTE]Just because it's not your game doesn't mean it's not a valid fact.

The point is that attraction has a role to play in determining what services are provided at certain rates if any charge at all. If a WG is attracted to you, some services are delivered without charge and if she is not, some services are not offerred at any price.

Why else would a WG in the heat of a good session allow one to go AO without charging if it not be for attraction.

[QUOTE=MyTwoInches;2164179]Roughly a third of girls do bare back fuck. [/QUOTE]The ratio of top tier girls doing bareback I'the imagine is lower. But top tier is a pretty subjective comment I guess.

[QUOTE=MyTwoInches;2164179]Roughly a third of girls do bare back fuck. More than a half do anal. More than a few do bare back anal. For the right amount of money.

No I will not name names.[/QUOTE][QUOTE=Bitumen;2164156]A regular German guest offers 500 bucks to new girls for BBFS.

Usual price is 100 bucks extra.

For some love can be bought.[/QUOTE]No idea why those mongers enjoyed BBFS.

It seems that they never know how HIV / AIDS or other STD would cause catastrophes to themselves.

If a girl hints at me she would provide BBFS, I would rebuffed her immediately and forever.

When we talk about money for sex offered by WGs, we have to inconveniently say the specific amount (like 100 euro or 200 euro or so on). Just saying the word "money" is meaningless because, if you pay one billion US dollars for one-hour sex, Hillary Clinton will probably suck your dick, but who pays one billion dollars for one-hour sex.

But we can use the word money here: Money can't buy love, even for a WG's love, because love is a chemical thing which is not triggered by materials. Sometimes money helps as a catalyst, but it is never a source of love.

[QUOTE=UncleOx;2164293]No idea why those mongers enjoyed BBFS.

It seems that they never know how HIV / AIDS or other STD would cause catastrophes to themselves.

If a girl hints at me she would provide BBFS, I would rebuffed her immediately and forever.[/QUOTE]It's a big risk but if you're determined to experience the best sex possible, it will inevitably lead there. You can have the greatest sex with the most beautiful girl who provides top notch service, but doing the same without a condom will feel even better.

Whether the risk is worth it, well that's up to each monger to decide. If she offers and I don't know her, I'the probably decline. But if she is a regular and if the relationship naturally leads to that and she allows for it without charge, I'll partake.

[QUOTE=Bfsie;2164306]if you pay one billion US dollars for one-hour sex, Hillary Clinton will probably suck your dick [/QUOTE]You'd probably stand a better chance with Bill.

[QUOTE=UncleOx;2164293]No idea why those mongers enjoyed BBFS.

It seems that they never know how HIV / AIDS or other STD would cause catastrophes to themselves.

If a girl hints at me she would provide BBFS, I would rebuffed her immediately and forever.[/QUOTE]I am sorry UncleOx that if you apply your strict principle to your FKK counterparts that your short list of choices become incredibly short. BBFS and BB anal is rife. Just search on the Sharks thread for some names of those who do it.

Someone mentioned the small girl Estephania at Sharks performs BB anal recently. Estephania does not work at Sharks anymore though. She was seen at Oase then went to a club further up the A5 free way.

[QUOTE=MrHo;2164170]BBFS is 100 euro extra in FKK for some girls? This I did not know.[/QUOTE]You do now. 🤗🤗🤗

Are you missing out Ho?😮😮😮

Don't knock it until you have tried it.😊😊😊

Price negotiable. It has been discussed before what the tariff is before. Some have the pricing much lower than 100 bucks but this seems to be the max end of the scale so always be delighted to get lower if you think 100 bucks.

[QUOTE=Takedown;2164276]The ratio of top tier girls doing bareback I'the imagine is lower. But top tier is a pretty subjective comment I guess.[/QUOTE]My mantra is any loving is good loving.

Does not matter if she is top shelf or lower tier shelf. If the love is there and it's going for gratis then fill your boots. That is why so many here go to the AO clubs even the French poet per his reports.

Don't knock it until you have tried it. 😉😉😉

[QUOTE=Takedown;2164271]

Why else would a WG in the heat of a good session allow one to go AO without charging if it not be for attraction.[/QUOTE]Maybe she did not realise. Like in doggie position with the girl facing away the guy pulls the condom off and pushes his cock back inside of her bare back like Ottomans are reputed to do.

Many a working girl reassures customers that they don't feel the difference with bareback or using a condom when they say to the customer to wear a Johnny. So why don't dispense with the Johnny if it does not feel any different.

I can tell you the girls say that when a customer pushes it in bare back unannounced that the customer gets pilloried.

To be sure, I am not speaking from experience on shoving my cock in unannounced as mentioned before getting hosed by everyone here.

[QUOTE=Jnpr30;2164203]BBFS- not my game.

A friend said of one WG "she is just a . I asked "what's the difference between a who $re and a? His reply "[/QUOTE]Jnpr30,

Good after dinner anecdote. 💪128170;128170;.

[QUOTE=SamsonMonger;2164265]How about now Bub?[/QUOTE]Interesting to see that despite that experience you still stick to your opinion.

[QUOTE=Bitumen;2164371]Maybe she did not realise. Like in doggie position with the girl facing away the guy pulls the condom off and pushes his cock back inside of her bare back like Ottomans are reputed to do.
[/QUOTE]Well that would mean a bit more deception in the end to hide this fact or face the wrath of an angry working girl with whom you've just committed the ultimate mongering sin.

I'm no saint but no, I would never do that.

[QUOTE=MyTwoInches;2164179]Roughly a third of girls do bare back fuck. More than a half do anal. More than a few do bare back anal. For the right amount of money.

No I will not name names.[/QUOTE]With statistics that one third of tutes will AO (BBFS) and 100% would AO with their BFs and / or pimps and half would do AO then there is no need to name names.

Based on your proposition Pretty much any guy can go into a FKK and be assured of finding a tute that will AO for no money extra or for a little extra bucks.

Bare back anal feel real good.

[QUOTE=SamsonMonger;2164265]How about now Bub?[/QUOTE]Speaking of "Bub", whatever happened to Hessen Bub?

[QUOTE=MyTwoInches;2164179]Roughly a third of girls do bare back fuck. More than a half do anal. More than a few do bare back anal. For the right amount of money.

No I will not name names.[/QUOTE]I seriously doubt that. Percentage is a lot lower. Might depend on how much you're willing to pay for it. From 500€ extra for BBFS some girls will start thinking about it. Hard to say as I never offered a girl extra money for BBFS. I know guys who do and have a faint idea of their success rates.

[QUOTE=Bitumen;2164361]You do now. 🤗🤗🤗

Are you missing out Ho?😮😮😮

Don't knock it until you have tried it.😊😊😊

Price negotiable. It has been discussed before what the tariff is before. Some have the pricing much lower than 100 bucks but this seems to be the max end of the scale so always be delighted to get lower if you think 100 bucks.[/QUOTE]I never asked or try this one for some reason in German FKK. Why? I do not know. I do that back home, but never asked in German FKK.

Is it fear of STD? But I never asked, I may try to ask some girls I feel it is rather safe. Well I know I know the risk of std is always there.

I want to avoid Romanians though as they may have something from child vaccine injections because poor country's hospital tend to share needles etc.

So I try asking to German or Hungarian girls, but I think it get harder.

[QUOTE=Bitumen;2164457]With statistics that one third of tutes will AO (BBFS) and 100% would AO with their BFs and / or pimps and half would do AO then there is no need to name names.[/QUOTE]What statistics?

[QUOTE=Bfsie;2164306]When we talk about money for sex offered by WGs, we have to inconveniently say the specific amount (like 100 euro or 200 euro or so on). Just saying the word "money" is meaningless because, if you pay one billion US dollars for one-hour sex, Hillary Clinton will probably suck your dick, but who pays one billion dollars for one-hour sex.

But we can use the word money here: Money can't buy love, even for a WG's love, because love is a chemical thing which is not triggered by materials. Sometimes money helps as a catalyst, but it is never a source of love.[/QUOTE]I agree worth most (again), but you contradict yourself. The word 'to buy' is nothing but a word that implies another word: 'a catalyst'.

[QUOTE=Bitumen;2164359]Someone mentioned the small girl Estephania at Sharks performs BB anal recently. Estephania does not work at Sharks anymore though. She was seen at Oase then went to a club further up the A5 free way.[/QUOTE]As far as I read it, that was not a hint at her doing BB anal. But anyway. Not important (I might have read the wrong comment. I did meet her at Oase last fall. She tried it for one week before returning to Sharks. Sharks just made her more money. When I saw her back at Sharks she had started upselling. My best guess is that she will keep changing clubs for awhile. I doubt World will be her final stop with those income expectations. She is better of improving service and reducing the upselling if money is what she is looking into. And I can see her making tons of money. Perhaps same level as Lucy at Aca. She has the looks. Just not quite the attitude yet. A little too business heavy, which puts guys of. And I guess maybe many locals avoid that sentiment. Totally opposite of someone like Lucy or even Mandy.

Upselling girls probably add a temporary boost to their income. Maybe lasting a month or so. But afterwards they probably see a two-fold dip in their income as many guys won't repeat. And such a reputation can take long to rectify.

[QUOTE=Bitumen;2164361]You do now. 🤗🤗🤗

Are you missing out Ho?😮😮😮

Don't knock it until you have tried it.😊😊😊

Price negotiable. It has been discussed before what the tariff is before. Some have the pricing much lower than 100 bucks but this seems to be the max end of the scale so always be delighted to get lower if you think 100 bucks.[/QUOTE]The pro girls tease it also. But only the smart ones. You know the pussy grind on cock without insertion ASAP you lay down on the bed. Too bad not more girls use this strategy. It is the best warm up there is. Great hint also of something more too.

[QUOTE=Bitumen;2164457]With statistics that one third of tutes will AO (BBFS) and 100% would AO with their BFs and / or pimps and half would do AO then there is no need to name names.

Based on your proposition Pretty much any guy can go into a FKK and be assured of finding a tute that will AO for no money extra or for a little extra bucks.

Bare back anal feel real good.[/QUOTE]"For the right amount of money".

Perhaps I should add "for the right guy".

[QUOTE=UncleOx;2164293]No idea why those mongers enjoyed BBFS.

It seems that they never know how HIV / AIDS or other STD would cause catastrophes to themselves.

If a girl hints at me she would provide BBFS, I would rebuffed her immediately and forever.[/QUOTE]Not a good idea to be ragging on the sex preferences of other mongers.

Some people might say BBBJ leads to STDs too. Would you shun them? Don't bother with stats and facts and medical links to show BBBJ is safe but BBFS is not. This is about a risk any specific monger is willing to take. Not for other mongers to judge.

[QUOTE=Bitumen;2164371]Maybe she did not realise. Like in doggie position with the girl facing away the guy pulls the condom off and pushes his cock back inside of her bare back like Ottomans are reputed to do.

Many a working girl reassures customers that they don't feel the difference with bareback or using a condom when they say to the customer to wear a Johnny. So why don't dispense with the Johnny if it does not feel any different.

I can tell you the girls say that when a customer pushes it in bare back unannounced that the customer gets pilloried.

To be sure, I am not speaking from experience on shoving my cock in unannounced as mentioned before getting hosed by everyone here.[/QUOTE]One should never do BBFS unless the girl knows this. That is exactly why the law was passed. If the girl catches you and take you to the desk, you could be subject to that massive fine. You have essentially committed [url=http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord123][CodeWord123][/url]. Don't think he said / she said will save you. At a minimum you will be blacklisted. Management will side with the girl to protect their business and there is no reason a girl would lie.

[QUOTE=Bitumen;2164373]Jnpr30,

Good after dinner anecdote. 💪128170;128170;.[/QUOTE]Thanks Bitumen.

You will like this:

Which one is better oral or anal sex?

Anal of course. Oral sex just makes your whole day but anal makes the hole weak 🙂

[QUOTE=Jnpr30;2164600]Oral sex just makes your day but anal makes the hole weak 🙂.[/QUOTE]Not bad, but given how many there are on this forum that likes it in reverse, it might have started out something like this:

Oral sex just makes your day, but anal sex makes your hole weak.

[QUOTE=Jnpr30;2164600]Thanks Bitumen.

You will like this:

Which one is better oral or anal sex?

Anal of course. Oral sex just makes your day but anal makes the hole weak 🙂.[/QUOTE]Well done. Anal done too much weakens the anal muscles so it becomes less tight over time.

As said anal is enjoyable for the man since it is tighter, warmer and more humiliating for the woman getting her asshole plundered by a pirate.

The girl is usually screaming, moaning deep and grabbing the pillow or the bed sheets or have her head buried in a pillow to muffle her cries.

Anal sex is more memorable. Also you don't make babies so it is all about pleasure for the man.

[QUOTE=Bitumen;2164609]Well done. Anal done too much weakens the anal muscles so it becomes less tight over time.

As said anal is enjoyable for the man since it is tighter, warmer and more humiliating for the woman getting her asshole plundered by a pirate.

The girl is usually screaming, moaning deep and grabbing the pillow or the bed sheets or have her head buried in a pillow to muffle her cries.

Anal sex is more memorable. Also you don't make babies so it is all about pleasure for the man.[/QUOTE]Thank you, well said about good anal! The screaming, moaning and pillow grabbing instantly brings back my memories about Aisha, the librarian-looking girl with glasses from Living Room in summer 2016. A lifetime experience.

The general prevalence of [B]HIV [/B]in Germany is about [B]0. 15%.[/B] Assume a WG gets 1200 room sessions annually, and if she is reluctant to or rarely offers BBFS (1%) then the probability for the girl to gets [B]HIV infection [/B]in one year would be less than:

[B]1 - (0.9985) **12 = 1.79%.[/B]

If she constantly offers BBFS (10%) in order to charge more money (100-300 E), then the chance for HIV infection in one year would be great than:

1 - (0.9985) **120 = [B]16.48%.[/B].

In two years the probability of HIV infection would be [B]30.25%[/B] if using this formula.

So I always avoid girls whom are some kind of regular BBFS providers.

[QUOTE=Bitumen;2164359]I am sorry UncleOx that if you apply your strict principle to your FKK counterparts that your short list of choices become incredibly short. BBFS and BB anal is rife. Just search on the Sharks thread for some names of those who do it.

Someone mentioned the small girl Estephania at Sharks performs BB anal recently. Estephania does not work at Sharks anymore though. She was seen at Oase then went to a club further up the A5 free way.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=TheCane;2164464]Speaking of "Bub", whatever happened to Hessen Bub?[/QUOTE]I read somewhere that he changed his handling name, I guess girls found out who it is.

[QUOTE=RogueNation;2164473]I seriously doubt that. Percentage is a lot lower. Might depend on how much you're willing to pay for it. From 500 extra for BBFS some girls will start thinking about it. Hard to say as I never offered a girl extra money for BBFS. I know guys who do and have a faint idea of their success rates.[/QUOTE]You could doubt it, but doesn't mean your numbers are proven to be any better. "Seriously".

A girl just has to fuck one customer in the club bareback to be in that stat. Not every customer, but just one customer. No; boyfriends and pimps are not in that stat.

My numbers are based on my experience. If your numbers are at a lower level, it just means you had less success. I think the actual stats might be higher, because there are definitely girls who won't do me at the money I offered, but do other customers at whatever money they offered.

[QUOTE=RogueNation;2164387]Interesting to see that despite that experience you still stick to your opinion.[/QUOTE]Why so interesting? Even pooled sources and Romanian people themselves agree with them being Latin people. Should I trust a German's opinion on Romanian cultural classification over Romanian people themselves?

[QUOTE=MrHo;2164476]I want to avoid Romanians though as they may have something from child vaccine injections because poor country's hospital tend to share needles etc..[/QUOTE]That's one of the most ludicrous statements that I've ever heard. Worse considering that a person who has enough world experience to travel across the globe made this comment. It's completely baseless that a 20 something year old person carries an infectious disease gained from contaminated vaccines given when they were children. It's not medically impossible but so unlikely that it would not have any statistical relevance.

[QUOTE=Pistons;2164502]I agree worth most (again), but you contradict yourself. The word 'to buy' is nothing but a word that implies another word: 'a catalyst'.[/QUOTE]It makes sense. A catalyst is not something that causes something. A catalyst is something that lowers the theshold that must be reached for a process to happen. The money lowers the theshold for love to occur. A guy no longer has to be successful, physically attractive, of similar age, and caring. Now he can just be rich, a little chubby, a little older, and not an asshole.

[QUOTE=UncleOx;2164662]The general prevalence of [B]HIV [/B]in Germany is about [B]0. 15%.[/B] Assume a WG gets 1200 room sessions annually, and if she is reluctant to or rarely offers BBFS (1%) then the probability for the girl to gets [B]HIV infection [/B]in one year would be less than:

[B]1 - (0.9985) **12 = 1.79%.[/B] [/QUOTE]That assumes that each exposure would immediately create an infection. That's not even close to true. The (vaginal male to female) transmission rate is about 0.08%.

So using your numbers, if a sex worker has 1200 customers (1200 sessions with a different customer each time) per year, and 0.15% of them are HIV infected, then that's 1200 * 0.0015 = 1.8 exposures per year.

And given a transmission rate of 0.08%, the probability of HIV infection is then 1.8 * 0.0008 = 0.144% chance of infection each year.

A more direct calculation can be done using this statistic: HIV infection is found in about 0.2% of female sex workers in Germany.

([URL]https://ecdc.europa.eu/sites/portal/files/media/en/publications/Publications/dublin-declaration-sex-workers.pdf[/URL]).

The female to male vaginal HIV transmission rate is about. 0.04%. So the probability of a man getting HIV from a single random encounter with a female German sex worker is:

0.002 * 0.0004 = 0.0000008 = 0.00008 %

Put another way, if you had BBFS with 1000 different female German sex workers, your chances of becoming HIV infected would be 0.08%.

To put that in perspective, the chances of flipping a coin and getting 10 heads in a row is more likely (it's more than 0.09%.)

[QUOTE=SamsonMonger;2164710]Why so interesting? Even pooled sources and Romanian people themselves agree with them being Latin people. Should I trust a German's opinion on Romanian cultural classification over Romanian people themselves?[/QUOTE]As far as I know by experience, Romanian people agree that they are Latin origin, but they go further, Romanian people in FKK also seems to believe that they are Italian or Spanish LOL!

German people are rational people, so maybe German people will say Romanian people are Romanian people, so I think I will believe more German people for this matter than Romanian people who think they are Italian or Spanish LOL.

[QUOTE=SmokeLight;2164617]Thank you, well said about good anal! The screaming, moaning and pillow grabbing instantly brings back my memories about Aisha, the librarian-looking girl with glasses from Living Room in summer 2016. A lifetime experience.[/QUOTE]Yeah. Nice experiences having your hard cock inside their assholes then coming inside their butt. Feels real good blasting a nut there in their black hole.

[QUOTE=UncleOx;2164662]The general prevalence of [B]HIV [/B]in Germany is about [B]0. 15%.[/B] Assume a WG gets 1200 room sessions annually, and if she is reluctant to or rarely offers BBFS (1%) then the probability for the girl to gets [B]HIV infection [/B]in one year would be less than:

[B]1 - (0.9985) **12 = 1.79%.[/B]

If she constantly offers BBFS (10%) in order to charge more money (100-300 E), then the chance for HIV infection in one year would be great than:

1 - (0.9985) **120 = [B]16.48%.[/B].

In two years the probability of HIV infection would be [B]30.25%[/B] if using this formula.

So I always avoid girls whom are some kind of regular BBFS providers.[/QUOTE]Then AO club must have been disaster then.

Well anal BBFS is dangerous, normal intercourse has much less risk, but risk is there yes.

FKK line up got its up and down, and also its got up and down and vanishing of some nationality.

I miss Czech girls a lot actually, young beautiful blonde or brunette one like Marketa in Artemis who is long gone.

Back in early 2010's, I found few young Czech stunners, but now they are rare now.

I think Hungarian girls are to follow to be vanished. And polish girls are almost vanished already. Oh I loved polish blonde girls.

Surprisingly, I kind of think German girls are quite secure, I think there could be more of certain type of hybrid Germans walking in especially second generation hybrid immigrant girls will be more as time advance as they live right in the country where FKK is and easy to access to this job since it is right there.

Another sure secure ones are Romanians and Bulgarians, they will always be meats provider to German FKK LOL.

I wait for Ukraine to join eu or at least get some kind of work visa with eu, so I may get to see Ukrainian in German FKK then, if that happen, I am going to have to be FKK client immigrants to Germany LOL.

A few veterans I've known throughout the years are BBFS afficionados. 300 for 3 hours, no extra is their offer at mainstream club. I suspect they develop a sixth sense for who to proposition (not always a verbal proposition). But BBFS is an in-demand service, so you have to suspect lots of mongers ask. And once a WG has done it, I suspect that she will be open to it in the future. A few names were revealed to me, but it is only after they had a falling out with the WG. Or that WG left the business. While it was ongoing, they didn't want to jeopardize it by naming her.

One prominent poster years back used to get AO offers from a few of the WGs he long-roomed with. He speculated that the WGs saw it as a challenge to get him to pop.

Well put Neurosynth, we can finally agree on something. Also, no sex worker in German FKKs probably have sex with 1200 different guys in one year. The top girls make so many repeat rooms that even if they do 2000 rooms a year, which is extremely high and perhaps 5 in average per day, 75% of these are probably repeats. I have talked to a few FKK girls about how many different guys they have had sex with, and 3-400 different guys a year is more the norm. Of course some have more, but then the repeats are probably higher too. If they work 200-250 days a year. The second year will also have tons of repeats, so you cannot add the numbers. Perhaps add the second year on a 1.5-1.6 multiplier. Also notice the fairly low difference between the HIV rate for sex workers (0.2%) and for among the general population 0.15% And perhaps also add in the increased rate of HIV among homosexual men. Which also include gay male prostitutes.

If I catch HIV from an FKK girl after natures will, I am going to run straight over to a store and deliver a lotto coupon. Although I personally don't normally go for the BBFS.

[QUOTE=MyTwoInches;2164515]"For the right amount of money".

Perhaps I should add "for the right guy".[/QUOTE]Now that is changing the goal posts after the scoring goal has been made.

[QUOTE=RogueNation;2164491]What statistics?[/QUOTE]You need to keep up with the comprehension. Keep reading and trying to understand.

This is the proposition statistic under discussion.

[QUOTE=MyTwoInches;2164179]Roughly a third of girls do bare back fuck. More than a half do anal. More than a few do bare back anal. For the right amount of money.

No I will not name names.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=MrHo;2164476]I never asked or try this one for some reason in German FKK. Why? I do not know. I do that back home, but never asked in German FKK.

Is it fear of STD? But I never asked, I may try to ask some girls I feel it is rather safe. Well I know I know the risk of std is always there.

I want to avoid Romanians though as they may have something from child vaccine injections because poor country's hospital tend to share needles etc.

So I try asking to German or Hungarian girls, but I think it get harder.[/QUOTE]Now you are in the know Ho. Been enlightened that you were not getting the full menu of what you thought was porno services. Most porno is BB.

I will say it again. Don't knock it until you have tried it.

You're right, having some green smelly pus coming out of your dick is so porno.

[QUOTE=MrHo;2164670]I read somewhere that he changed his handling name, I guess girls found out who it is.[/QUOTE]On different forums, but now only on ISG to improve my English, even being known as white wolf by many girls, I won't change my name because I'm proud of who I am, with my manners I have the prettiest girls anywhere I go and after we had room, they want to repeat. When I'm away for a while, they send me: When I will come back? So no need to hide behind own shadow. When I caress them, they take my hands and caress them. Who caress girls face, change sometimes their hair, their make up, advice them for their nails and they do it, proud on next time. No, don t touch my make up answered. They also seem to like to caress and kiss my face. When you found the woman part, like when you really make them cum, not fake porn show, they became different, you are not anymore only for money, they ask you give them again, they don't want you go with other girls to do the same with others. Then you can play sex like at home, when some prefer CIM or anal but then only money clients.

About those who always need to tell about others, without knowing them, always interesting to see with own eyes, like Dietzenbach casting, or some AO clubs in NRW, to understand why these girls, mainly Bulgarians, take so many risks for their health. Because they are poor, because they are pimped and driven there every morning, because most are not pretty enough to get 50 € business in normal clubs. Who can believe these girls prefer to work to be cum inside by old fats without condom for only 30 €, rather than at Globe for 140 , or even at big Sharks with no more selection for girls beauty, for 50.

But much more enjoyable to get with a beauty you choose, rather than with ugly girls, and when she could say she never wants to repeat with you, she seems to prefer and never ask for extra money for anything, they just take what you give them when they could ask for extra.

Manners pay like money. Some have to pay, some will get some services or even not available services, for free, just during fluent sex like at home, just for passion on first time and repeating the same, after, for free. Less expensive than in AO clubs and much prettier girls.

But always interesting to understand with own eyes. We don't all have same eyes and standards for what are attractive girls, I go for the prettiest and sexiest. Even they are usually busy, when they know me, they come to me.

No need to hide, no need to use different profiles like some.

[QUOTE=Bitumen;2164814]Now you are in the know Ho. Been enlightened that you were not getting the full menu of what you thought was porno services. Most porno is BB.

I will say it again. Don't knock it until you have tried it.[/QUOTE]Hardknock life in FKK LOL.

I go nude this year LOL LOL!

[QUOTE=Pistons;2164502]I agree worth most (again), but you contradict yourself. The word 'to buy' is nothing but a word that implies another word: 'a catalyst'.[/QUOTE]Honestly I don't quite understand what you tried to say and your point is. I think most readers probably understand what I was trying to say there. But just in case any reader (like you) doesn't quite understand it, I briefly explain it again. We probably all learned from chemistry lessons in school, for example element A mixing with element B reacts to element C and catalyst D accelerates the process. So 1. This chemical reaction doesn't need catalyst D (it is money in our topic) whose only function is to accelerate the chemical process. 2. If without either element A or B, but with catalyst D, the chemical reaction won't happen and won't produce element C (in this topic it is love, element C = love in our topic) no matter how much catalyst D (money) you put in. This is my point.

[QUOTE=MrHo;2164476]I never asked or try this one for some reason in German FKK. Why? I do not know. I do that back home, but never asked in German FKK.

Is it fear of STD? But I never asked, I may try to ask some girls I feel it is rather safe. Well I know I know the risk of std is always there.

I want to avoid Romanians though as they may have something from child vaccine injections because poor country's hospital tend to share needles etc.

So I try asking to German or Hungarian girls, but I think it get harder.[/QUOTE]Didn't I see you post recently about your desires for the open borders and work visas that would allow Ukrainian women to join the ranks at the clubs in Germany yet here you state you avoid Romanians for fear of diseases they may have caught from childhood injections. Seems interesting you desire more women from a country in the top three of highest percentage of European countries with HIV and avoid those from a country in the bottom three. If you look for an excuse to avoid Romanians, pick a better statistic like avoiding petite, nimble ladies who still maintain flexibility resulting from years training to be a Womans Olympic Gymnastics Gold Medalist.

There are risks, I think largely increased by fellow mongers who travel to far off lands and participate in BBS activities. I recently read on several news sites that a British male returned from Asia and has been diagnosed with antibiotic resistant Super Gonorrhea.

[QUOTE=Bfsie;2164882]We probably all learned from chemistry lessons in school, for example element A mixing with element B reacts to element C and catalyst D accelerates the process. [/QUOTE]My chemistry teacher in school taught me that you cannot produce another Element C by mixing elements A and B. You get either a mixture if they do not react, or a compound if they do.

Although ancient believers in Alchemy do claim that it could be done.

In college however, my physics teacher taught me that you can produce element C by smashing element A onto element B in a collider, or through a nuclear reaction. But in both these reactions, catalytic elements are not used. Rather, in collisions, some form of energy could be a catalyst. While in a nuclear reaction the opposite of catalysts are needed where carbon rods are inserted to dampen the reaction.

To continue the analogy, when you A bangs the girl B physically, in the absence of a dampener (condom D), you produce a baby C.

[QUOTE=MyTwoInches;2164685] If your numbers are at a lower level, it just means you had less success. I think the actual stats might be higher, because there are definitely girls who won't do me at the money I offered, but do other customers at whatever money they offered.[/QUOTE]As I said, I never offered extra money for BBFS and I will never do.

[QUOTE=TankTank123;2164943]My chemistry teacher in school taught me that you cannot produce another Element C by mixing elements A and B. [/QUOTE]Sorry. I should write substance C instead of element C (it has been long time since I left school LOL). But you understand what I meant in the context of this topic.

[QUOTE=Bfsie;2164882]Honestly I don't quite understand what you tried to say and your point is. I think most readers probably understand what I was trying to say there. But just in case any reader (like you) doesn't quite understand it, I briefly explain it again. We probably all learned from chemistry lessons in school, for example element A mixing with element B reacts to element C and catalyst D accelerates the process. So 1. This chemical reaction doesn't need catalyst D (it is money in our topic) whose only function is to accelerate the chemical process. 2. If without either element A or B, but with catalyst D, the chemical reaction won't happen and won't produce element C (in this topic it is love, element C = love in our topic) no matter how much catalyst D (money) you put in. This is my point.[/QUOTE]I get this. Maybe I misread your last post, or wrote it a bit unclear. But I felt you got that one not 100% right in the last paragraph. Like you say, the idea of buying love has nothing to do with your source A or (B). It has all to do with the catalyst (D). Person A and (B) are the sourcematerials, and (C) is the money like you say. Love comes from interaction. And the interaction requires the proximity which you can buy. So you can buy (D) the love (C). I think we mainly agree, but there is a small nuance if you reread what you wrote in the last paragraph of your last post:

[QUOTE=Bfsie;2164306] Money can't buy love, even for a WG's love, because love is a chemical thing which is not triggered by materials. Sometimes money helps as a catalyst, but it is never a source of love.[/QUOTE]This comment simply doesn't take into account oxytocin and other hormones we release when in company of each other. So the catalyst (D) is more than just randomly connected to (C). There is a strong link attached. And that is how you can buy it.

[QUOTE=TankTank123;2164943]To continue the analogy, when you A bangs the girl B physically, in the absence of a dampener (condom D), you produce a baby C.[/QUOTE]But in this case, perhaps it is not all about a catalysmic element (money), but a cataclysmic one (your sperm). LOL!

Sperm is after all a value measured in DNA.

[QUOTE=MrHo;2164732]As far as I know by experience, Romanian people agree that they are Latin origin, but they go further, Romanian people in FKK also seems to believe that they are Italian or Spanish LOL!

German people are rational people, so maybe German people will say Romanian people are Romanian people, so I think I will believe more German people for this matter than Romanian people who think they are Italian or Spanish LOL.[/QUOTE]Fair enough but if a Romanian has Italian citizenship, she is for my consideration within her right to call herself Italian. If she actually does.

As far as being Latin, yes you are right. They say it themselves.

[QUOTE=Bfsie;2164972]Sorry. I should write substance C instead of element C (it has been long time since I left school LOL). But you understand what I meant in the context of this topic.[/QUOTE]If we want to get technical. Catalyst lowers threshold energy, it does not have kinetic affects. As in, it does not speed it up; rather, it lowers energy that is needed to be put into the system. In our discussion, energy is just that, effort you need to put in in order to woo a girl.

[QUOTE=Sirioja;2164857]On different forums, but now only on ISG to improve my English, even being known as white wolf by many girls, I won't change my name because I'm proud of who I am, with my manners I have the prettiest girls anywhere I go and after we had room, they want to repeat. When I'm away for a while, they send me: When I will come back? So no need to hide behind own shadow. When I caress them, they take my hands and caress them. Who caress girls face, change sometimes their hair, their make up, advice them for their nails and they do it, proud on next time. No, don t touch my make up answered. They also seem to like to caress and kiss my face. When you found the woman part, like when you really make them cum, not fake porn show, they became different, you are not anymore only for money, they ask you give them again, they don't want you go with other girls to do the same with others. Then you can play sex like at home, when some prefer CIM or anal but then only money clients..[/QUOTE]Post was about Hessen Bub, not Sirioja.

[QUOTE=Pistons;2164973]

This comment simply doesn't take into account oxytocin and other hormones we release when in company of each other. So the catalyst D is more than just randomly connected to C. There is a strong link attached. And that is how you can buy it.[/QUOTE]This is your opinion. I think that most of readers understand my point (which, by the way, comes from my experience and observation) now whether they agree with or not, so I stop discussing this topic now.

[QUOTE=Bitumen;2164811]You need to keep up with the comprehension. Keep reading and trying to understand.

This is the proposition statistic under discussion.[/QUOTE]That was not statistics. That was some random guy giving his estimate anonymously on a sex forum. Statistics is "collection, analysis, interpretation, and presentation of [B] masses of numerical data[/B].

[QUOTE=MrHo;2164670]I read somewhere that he changed his handling name, I guess girls found out who it is.[/QUOTE]Not exactly true at all. After I inquired, I heard from Hessen Bub directly. He explained what he's up to these days. Still fucking for sure LOL!

[QUOTE=MrHo;2164765]I miss Czech girls a lot actually, young beautiful blonde or brunette one like Marketa in Artemis who is long gone. Back in early 2010's, I found few young Czech stunners, but now they are rare now. I think Hungarian girls are to follow to be vanished. And polish girls are almost vanished already. Oh I loved polish blonde girls.[/QUOTE]I miss the beautiful, blonde Czech girls too. The first FKK girl I ever had sex with was gorgeous, blonde Gina at FKK Palace (pre-surgery hehehe). And I too enjoyed the delights of "mattress back" Marketa (everybody was fucking that) over at FKK Artemis. I took her blonde, Czech girl cornhole in one of those rooms located near the Kino. One of the biggest stars for The Cane in Spain was a Hungarian chick going by "Irena" working at Whiskeria Estark. Fucked her in the butt twice and spermed all over her willing and waiting lips. She loved it up her butt hole so much she told me she never wanted me to fuck her "cho cho", and to only do her in her Hungarian asshole. Am I dreaming or what? Oh, and the Polish girls! The Polish tutes! Maybe pound for pound my favorite tutes in all of Europe. Pretty with good attitudes and know how to enjoy sex! Yes, bring the Polish girls back! I still have to wank over one pretty, blonde one who I butt fucked at FKK Artemis years ago. Oh, was that TMI? Hahaha! Besides Brazilian girls, I also find Russians and Ukrainians to be outstanding anal sex providers. Top-notch! Yes sir!

[QUOTE=Takedown;2165033]Post was about Hessen Bub, not Sirioja.[/QUOTE]He is not the only one using different profiles on this forum.

I think too many guys enjoy more to tell about other guys, rather than being able to get pleasure in their mind from what they are able to get from girls.

[QUOTE=TankTank123;2164943]My chemistry teacher in school taught me that you cannot produce another Element C by mixing elements A and B. You get either a mixture if they do not react, or a compound if they do.

Although ancient believers in Alchemy do claim that it could be done.
[/QUOTE]Hamdulillah TankTank! Al-kīmiyā, the art of extracting gold juice from ordinary metal, not so different from what we do with women! But it was only in Al-wakanda that this was ever achieved, producing the seemingly magical element of cyprenium in medieval times. Since then cyprenium has powered the whole society and ensured 100% fertility, but the hidden kingdom has been loathe to reveal such a powerful Mojo to the world at large. I myself have become addicted to it, as well as the daily sprayings of oxytocin by the King's Royal Air Force, and do not intend to wind my caravan 🐪 north until FKK-land has rolled back the regulations and returned to the golden era of Atlantis.

[QUOTE=Bfsie;2165062]This is your opinion. I think that most of readers understand my point (which, by the way, comes from my experience and observation) now whether they agree with or not, so I stop discussing this topic now.[/QUOTE]Samson is trying to explain to you the same. It lowers the threshold. The correlation is many to one, not many to many. Like in a database.

[QUOTE=RogueNation;2164963]As I said, I never offered extra money for BBFS and I will never do.[/QUOTE]OK, I didn't ask for it, but thanks for volunteering such information. Quite irrelevant of course to the discussion at hand (which is, how many girls offer BBFS, not whether a random guy called Rogue Nation paid for it).

Here is a hint. If you personally ask 10 girls for BBFS, and one provides it to you, 10% is the minimum percent of girls who provides such service in that sample. Not the maximum. Among the 9 others, some might provide such service to other mongers, but not to you.

[QUOTE=TheCane;2165075]I miss the beautiful, blonde Czech girls too. The first FKK girl I ever had sex with was gorgeous, blonde Gina at FKK Palace (pre-surgery hehehe). And I too enjoyed the delights of "mattress back" Marketa (everybody was fucking that) over at FKK Artemis. I took her blonde, Czech girl cornhole in one of those rooms located near the Kino. [/QUOTE]Hey, your history almost sounds like mine. The 3 1/2 Czechs I have had sessions with were all great.

My first Czech was also Gina in Palace in 2009 and went on with her till 2010. She was reasonably slim, very well-shaped and very pretty then (before severe deterioration in almost all respects in later years). Those were the days I frequented Palace, taking mainly Gina, Saskia, the Poles Clara and Ebeline, and the Thai Bee. No Romanians! (although I was disturbed frequently then by 'Egyptian' Angelina who kept trying to block me from those girls she knew were my usual targets. She still disturbs me at Sharks, like a plague that never goes away.)

My 2nd Czech was Marketta in Artemis in the period 2012 and 2013. Really slim and attractive, and fantastic service.

3rd Czech was Elizabeth in Oase whom I went the most with in 2013 and 2014 before she went to Globe as Adolphina. Really fun personality and fantastic sex also.

And finally the 1/2 Czech Raissa of World in 2015 and 2016. To me, the prettiest girl I have met in my whole FKK career, but I have only been able to bag her twice as she seems to have regulars who happen to book her for long sessions whenever I am at World. Still hoping she would be around at World this year.

Strangely I have not met any other Czechs. So, Czechs score 100% in my books so far.

[QUOTE=BigBuddy69;2164827]You're right, having some green smelly pus coming out of your dick is so porno.[/QUOTE]Good point. Thank you for injecting the voice of reason into this so-called "discussion. " There is no need to glorify activities which expose our working girls to unnecessary risks or which force our working girls to have to take "breaks" during certain treatments, thereby depriving everyone else from enjoying their company for certain periods of time.

So, thank you BigBuddy69.

I think we all miss Marketa. Aksena kind of took over in her role at Artemis for me after Marketa left. But now also Bulgarian Aksena may be gone. They were kind of the same type of girl. Except Aksena didn't smoke. Marketa smoked a bit heavily the last time I saw her. Wonder what she is up to these days.

I don't know what is up with Angelina. She does the exact same thing with me, hitting my balls if I try to ignore her. But she gets it more nowadays that she is not my type. But she is still shittalking me to her friends behind my back. I don't know what she says, but her friends don't go with me. Too bad for them I guess. The Angelina influence won't make them much money if that's their tactics to trust in her.

[QUOTE=TheCane;2165075]I miss the beautiful, blonde Czech girls too. The first FKK girl I ever had sex with was gorgeous, blonde Gina at FKK Palace (pre-surgery hehehe). And I too enjoyed the delights of "mattress back" Marketa (everybody was fucking that) over at FKK Artemis. I took her blonde, Czech girl cornhole in one of those rooms located near the Kino. One of the biggest stars for The Cane in Spain was a Hungarian chick going by "Irena" working at Whiskeria Estark. Fucked her in the butt twice and spermed all over her willing and waiting lips. She loved it up her butt hole so much she told me she never wanted me to fuck her "cho cho", and to only do her in her Hungarian asshole. Am I dreaming or what? Oh, and the Polish girls! The Polish tutes! Maybe pound for pound my favorite tutes in all of Europe. Pretty with good attitudes and know how to enjoy sex! Yes, bring the Polish girls back! I still have to wank over one pretty, blonde one who I butt fucked at FKK Artemis years ago. Oh, was that TMI? Hahaha! Besides Brazilian girls, I also find Russians and Ukrainians to be outstanding anal sex providers. Top-notch! Yes sir![/QUOTE]Like you once said Mr cane that you heard from old monger, as one stunner goes out, new stunners are coming into industry, it is bit like river flowing into ocean, new waters are constantly coming in replacing old ones as we move into future.

Also since hardware are already built there, registered legally in Germany known as FKK with promptly invested financially, they will always have to fill it with software, which is most important thing because we monger go to FKK to enjoy beautiful girls, so I wonder which regions of Europe the management side as well FKK supply trend will get the future girls?

Germany will be secure supplier as girls living in Germany has easier access to go into industry as it is right there at home ground.

As for future nations, any eastern European nations newly join EU or get some kind of visa exemption are possible future supplier to FKK line up.

Political trend is good for monger in future because many nations are leaving Europe so EU may try to attract more of eastern European nations to move more closer to EU and more Russia put pressure on Ukraine, more EU want to include Ukraine as EU sub member etc.

Whatta nice crazy rational world we live in at FKK LOL.

[QUOTE=MrHo;2164753]Then AO club must have been disaster then.

Well anal BBFS is dangerous, normal intercourse has much less risk, but risk is there yes.[/QUOTE]I don't think Mr Ho can see my posts. Maybe someone can point out that according to my calculations below, a man's chance of getting HIV from a vaginal session with a random German prostitute is 0.00008%.

Also given intercourse with a man who *IS HIV infected*, the transmission rate to women is 0.08% for vaginal intercourse, and 1.38% for anal.

[URL]https://www.cdc.gov/hiv/risk/estimates/riskbehaviors.html[/URL]

[QUOTE=Neurosynth;2165306]I don't think Mr Ho can see my posts. Maybe someone can point out that according to my calculations below, a man's chance of getting HIV from a vaginal session with a random German prostitute is 0. 00008%.
.....
[/QUOTE]That's all very well but HIV is now a treatable disease and has become something of a side-issue. There are now much more worrying pathogens around. As for BBFS I don't ask for it in FKKs but I'm one of the skeptics regarding availability at acceptable prices with the better-looking girls. I mean without putting 500 E on the table. Even getting some girls to accept my own condom brand is sometimes difficult.

[QUOTE=XXL;2165310]That's all very well but HIV is now a treatable disease and has become something of a side-issue. There are now much more worrying pathogens around. As for BBFS I don't ask for it in FKKs but I'm one of the skeptics regarding availability at acceptable prices with the better-looking girls. I mean without putting 500 E on the table. Even getting some girls to accept my own condom brand is sometimes difficult.[/QUOTE]So you guys are promoting me to go BBFS now then LOL!

I always use my own condom, I never had issue with that one. But I never try asking BBFS at German FKK. I did slide my dick on girls pussy before, stunner in German FKK, but I did not ask to put it in, I have however got refused few times on sliding my dick on pussy in German FKK.

If I find good one enough, I will try to ask for BBFS, I got to find one I want to penetrate BBFS first though. I am going to accidentally cum inside, nakadashi style LOL!

[QUOTE=Neurosynth;2165306]I don't think Mr Ho can see my posts. Maybe someone can point out that according to my calculations below, a man's chance of getting HIV from a vaginal session with a random German prostitute is 0.00008%.

Also given intercourse with a man who *IS HIV infected*, the transmission rate to women is 0.08% for vaginal intercourse, and 1.38% for anal.

[URL]https://www.cdc.gov/hiv/risk/estimates/riskbehaviors.html[/URL][/QUOTE]I have read several articles related to those observational studies. Actually, the risk of acquiring HIV is about "per coital act" instead of "per sexual intercourse". So I believe the actual risk should be about 4%-8% per penile-vaginal intercourse if exposures to an infected source.

With regards to AO activities, The governments' and other organizations' statistics of likelihood getting STDs which are based on civilian populations are always irrelevant here because we are talking about WGs who sell sex for living and have sex with hundreds (if not thousands) men, particularly the WGs in AO clubs vast majority (if not most) of whom I think have some sort of STDs. Many of those WGs had STD (s) before starting to work in AO clubs and the STD (s) they had is the only reason they chose to work there because they didn't care anymore. If they didn't have STD (s), they would probably not work in AO clubs.

If you don't want to get STDs, you should avoid AO clubs or at least have condom protection there. In non-AO clubs, you should better avoid those well-known BB sellers (WGs). Instead you should work on the WGs whose regular you are and convince them to do it with maybe a little more expense if you really like AO and don't want to get STDs.

I used to do many BBFSs. I was always very selective in terms of whom I would do due to STDs and mainly chose the girls who hadn't been in the business long and were young between 18 and 20 and used my intuition.

[QUOTE=XXL;2165310]That's all very well but HIV is now a treatable disease and has become something of a side-issue. There are now much more worrying pathogens around. As for BBFS I don't ask for it in FKKs but I'm one of the skeptics regarding availability at acceptable prices with the better-looking girls. I mean without putting 500 E on the table. Even getting some girls to accept my own condom brand is sometimes difficult.[/QUOTE]Let me point out that HIV is treatable but, most importantly, not curable and you will have to live with it for the rest of your life, together with the stigma that it brings. Treatment of HIV is supposed to be very heavy and brings a lot of side effects as well.

[QUOTE=Bfsie;2165401]With regards to AO activities, The governments' and other organizations' statistics of likelihood getting STDs which are based on civilian populations are always irrelevant here because we are talking about WGs who sell sex for living and have sex with hundreds (if not thousands) men, particularly the WGs in AO clubs vast majority (if not most) of whom I think have some sort of STDs. Many of those WGs had STD (s) before starting to work in AO clubs and the STD (s) they had is the only reason they chose to work there because they didn't care anymore. If they didn't have STD (s), they would probably not work in AO clubs.

If you don't want to get STDs, you should avoid AO clubs or at least have condom protection there. In non-AO clubs, you should better avoid those well-known BB sellers (WGs). Instead you should work on the WGs whose regular you are and convince them to do it with maybe a little more expense if you really like AO and don't want to get STDs.

I used to do many BBFSs. I was always very selective in terms of whom I would do due to STDs and mainly chose the girls who hadn't been in the business long and were young between 18 and 20 and used my intuition.[/QUOTE]Very good point as the incidence of STDs in WG is very high, compared to the general population, and very few get regularly tested. Condom use decreases the risk of getting some STDs but not all, such as herpes, gonorreah.

[QUOTE=Bfsie;2165401]With regards to AO activities, The governments' and other organizations' statistics of likelihood getting STDs which are based on civilian populations are always irrelevant here because we are talking about WGs who sell sex for living and have sex with hundreds (if not thousands) men, particularly the WGs in AO clubs vast majority (if not most) of whom I think have some sort of STDs. Many of those WGs had STD (s) before starting to work in AO clubs and the STD (s) they had is the only reason they chose to work there because they didn't care anymore. If they didn't have STD (s), they would probably not work in AO clubs.

If you don't want to get STDs, you should avoid AO clubs or at least have condom protection there. In non-AO clubs, you should better avoid those well-known BB sellers (WGs). Instead you should work on the WGs whose regular you are and convince them to do it with maybe a little more expense if you really like AO and don't want to get STDs.

I used to do many BBFSs. I was always very selective in terms of whom I would do due to STDs and mainly chose the girls who hadn't been in the business long and were young between 18 and 20 and used my intuition.[/QUOTE]That is what I plan to do. I do bareback here at home with working girls, but I also choose too.

Also being in FKK for 9 years without bareback sex, but with all other BBBJ etc and I never got any std in FKK so far, also I never read any std reports from FKK. It is odd though because many of these girls in FKK are quite reckless and fuck so many guys in FKK and outside, but yet, I never heard of incidents of std in FKK.

[QUOTE=Chongmal;2164922]Didn't I see you post recently about your desires for the open borders and work visas that would allow Ukrainian women to join the ranks at the clubs in Germany yet here you state you avoid Romanians for fear of diseases they may have caught from childhood injections. Seems interesting you desire more women from a country in the top three of highest percentage of European countries with HIV and avoid those from a country in the bottom three. If you look for an excuse to avoid Romanians, pick a better statistic like avoiding petite, nimble ladies who still maintain flexibility resulting from years training to be a Womans Olympic Gymnastics Gold Medalist.

There are risks, I think largely increased by fellow mongers who travel to far off lands and participate in BBS activities. I recently read on several news sites that a British male returned from Asia and has been diagnosed with antibiotic resistant Super Gonorrhea.[/QUOTE]Thailand it is, Thailand, or possibly Philippines.

Ukrainians are beauty, I love fucking Ukrainian girls, they are among my favorite nationality to fuck, yeah I hope to find them in FKK in near future in large quantity like Romanians. This is possible Ukraine is ruined economically and I do not think they will ever do well with being sandwiched between mother Russia and west, so I be waiting for them in FKK, I hope they come by in large numbers.

[QUOTE=Pistons;2165221]I think we all miss Marketa. Aksena kind of took over in her role at Artemis for me after Marketa left. But now also Bulgarian Aksena may be gone. They were kind of the same type of girl. Except Aksena didn't smoke. Marketa smoked a bit heavily the last time I saw her. Wonder what she is up to these days.

I don't know what is up with Angelina. She does the exact same thing with me, hitting my balls if I try to ignore her. But she gets it more nowadays that she is not my type. But she is still shittalking me to her friends behind my back. I don't know what she says, but her friends don't go with me. Too bad for them I guess. The Angelina influence won't make them much money if that's their tactics to trust in her.[/QUOTE]Marketa was saving to do her business in Prague, so she must be somewhere in that beautiful city, she was great and all natural and no tattoo. Golden era of Artemis. Another one I miss is Geraldine Hungarian, Coco Greek albanian, Joy German also know as July in Palace, Kimmi blonde German from Berlin also worked in Palace, Ivy German girl from Hamburg, and list continue. FKK Artemis had real gold era from 2009 till 2015. It was very good 6 years.

Well now we are not doing too bad at all, so let us crave for the best stunners we can find here and there in various FKK.

I used to be a BBFS guy, in 2009-2012 probably I had BBFS around 100-200 Russian WG, at that time I was in total paranonia that I was sure I had HIV, I even developed hypochondriasis at that time, panicking with any new enlarged lymph node, sore throat, cough, etc.

However in 2013 I did pre-occupation mandatory HIV / Hepatitis be&see, and I was deemed clean from those shitty viruses.

Since then (2013) till now 2018 I probably had BBFS with 5 WG max.

All my BBFS were not in FKK Germany, and there were all vaginal non were anal, funny that I used to get a BBFS from WG that even refused BBBJ intitally, and all the BBFS I had was without an upsell, without even asking for it.

Speaking of FKK, I never asked for BBFS in any FKK club, except once I had it in 2016, it was in FKK Mondial, 30 Euro session, didn't ask for it, but it happened spontanously.

I'm pretty sure BBFS is not hard to find in most FKK, it needs either:

- Extra money as an upsell (300-500 Euro sounds reasonable).

- Prolonged session without an upsell (ie taking a WG for 5 hours etc.).

- Long term relationship.

- Deep understanding of human psychology, body langauge, and alpha demenour.

- WG overdosed herself with alcohol or whatever.

- Luck (like my mondial session).

That aside I'm just happy with BBBJ it can and had kept away from BBFS, with slips here and there (like once a year).

Since we are on the topic of BBFS, and HIV probabilty, no one mentioned the benefits of circumcision, last time I checked it does confer protection against HIV, as the foreskin is highly populated by an immue cell called dendric cells, which are the target cells for HIV itself, removal of the foreskin on the other hand significantly decrease those cells, ergo decreasing the chance of being infected with HIV. No pushing an agends or anything, just worth a read.

Lastly if any monger is truly into BBFS, I recommend an HIV specialist opinion, to consider Pre-exposure prophylaxis, or PrEP, which proved to be highly effective against HIV if used as indicated (more than 90% protection). And for Hepaitis be a vaccine is already avialable, just to check your serology. Only Heptitis see is without a vaccine or PrEP but luckly HepC is rare to occur from sexual transmission.

[QUOTE=Bfsie;2165401]With regards to AO activities, The governments' and other organizations' statistics of likelihood getting STDs which are based on civilian populations are always irrelevant here because we are talking about WGs who sell sex for living and have sex with hundreds (if not thousands) men, particularly the WGs in AO clubs vast majority (if not most) of whom I think have some sort of STDs. Many of those WGs had STD (s) before starting to work in AO clubs and the STD (s) they had is the only reason they chose to work there because they didn't care anymore. If they didn't have STD (s), they would probably not work in AO clubs.

If you don't want to get STDs, you should avoid AO clubs or at least have condom protection there. In non-AO clubs, you should better avoid those well-known BB sellers (WGs). Instead you should work on the WGs whose regular you are and convince them to do it with maybe a little more expense if you really like AO and don't want to get STDs.

I used to do many BBFSs. I was always very selective in terms of whom I would do due to STDs and mainly chose the girls who hadn't been in the business long and were young between 18 and 20 and used my intuition.[/QUOTE]Bfsie,

With all due respect we are entitled to our opinions but this post needs a rebuttal as having read posts on the internet since it incorporated prostitution in to the world wide web this post could be nominated perhaps for one of the silliest and outright most worthless posts I have ever read or even moderated back in those years I wore that hat. I am not attacking you personally or your choices however I do wish to answer some of these outright in my opinion silly statements that stem from opinion and some factually wrong.

From the bottom up.

You claim you used to do many BBFS. Congrats, Join the club. Many more men are in the club than admit to it. Most guys in this club stay in the club once they join up. However some leave the club often when they get a significant other but more often when they encounter an STD themselves. Might you share with us why you stopped BBFS? Was it an STD? Was it to protect a significant other (which would be the right thing to do) Please enlighten us, inquiring minds want to know. How does intuition come in to play when choosing who to bareback or not? Do you see what they do on the side outside of work? Do you know what they did in the room prior? 18 to 20 year olds? Really? STD rates are often higher in the category, many of the girls are younger and do not even know the risks and get taken advantage of. Studies here have even suggested STD rates among WGs that are not ' users' are less with the older ladies. FWIW I will not fuck anyone in the USA under 25 for several reason, one being that generation having tossed the condom out the door. IMHO that age group is a higher risk. Just my intuition. A girl not being in the business very long is automatically STD free? I disagree as sometimes it takes a ' lesson' for a girl to wise up. I met a girl once at a club on one of her first few days and I started losing my hard on and she ripped off the condom and let me AO her. Can I safely assume she is safe as she is newer? How many other men did she rip the condom off for? Another girl I did AO once in the Frankfurt area told me she kept a list and by the time she turned 19 she had fucked her fiftieth man! Yeah, that 18-20 crowd is real safe. FYI, she told me she wore a condom with none, that is right none of those 50 men. Everyone one of them ejaculated in to that hot young 19 year old. Safe?

I agree with you on not attending AO clubs or using condoms if you want to ' reduce your risks' of an STD but by no means should you use the word ' avoid. ' The AO club girls get tested although between tests the risks and the odds of a client do increase as each load of cum gets fired in to them. You really think if you AO a ' Shark' for example you are avoiding an STD. Got news for you. The next time you rim a girl in Sharks or get rimmed odds are you are kissing the rear end of the man she rimmed before you or perhaps he rimmed her and you are rimming her and licking up his slobber. Next up you can DATY her but AO is so rife there exists a great chance you will be licking the cum out of her pussy that has yet to get expelled from her vaginal region. Enjoy. It comes with a risk too. There are a few very anti AO Sharks. It has been rumored it might be due to the fact an STD was contracted that changed their behaviors. Those same girls started when 18-20 in the biz. You do realize many men go to AO clubs to fuck and AO ' my darling filthy and disgusting dirty Gypsies' than go to Sharks or other mainstream clubs and do whatever. Are those WGs at the mainstream clubs than exposed? Or are they immune? What happens when they bareback a guy in the middle of their 15 man marathon fuck that day and that guy was the one who went to an AO club?

Avoid the known BB girls at mainstream clubs, probably a wise idea and I agree if one is worried about an STD to do such, to each their own. Now I ask how do you know the ' non well known' BB WG do not really bareback. (They do, all do some it is just more obvious and known) How do you know if a guy just left some random AO Day Care Center with an STD and will do as you say see a lower volume Shark (not picking on Sharks, Sharks being used generically for mainstream clubs) and infect her right before you see her and pick up a present from the Day Care Center delivered to Darmstadt unknowingly? I am sure my example may be off medically as there are incubation periods but I think the point got across.

In your first paragraph I agree with you that we can not use government statistics for the reason you state and apply them to the game we play, all of us take on a greater risk in general as we are a very promiscuous group. These girls do fuck many more times and many more men than most civilians. You think most girls in the AO clubs have STDs? They may have a higher risk of contraction but they also get tested although the period between tests carries a risk but do you really think every mainstream WG is tested frequently? They all have lovers and boyfriends too that cum in their pussies after the paying johns. Many get a hot load of warm cum shot in them before work. I have dated hookers before and I loved pumping my cum deep in their pussies before they went off to work and than would laugh when I would read a review how they showed up with a dripping wet vagina and the guy thinks it was because she was turned on by him and brags how excited she was (thanks to my DNA though.) Those same loverboys in Germany are also fucking other girls many bareback during the time their girls are fucking us. Some of them even go to Dietz to fuck (Facebook can be very educational and is a great way to see some realities of what is really going on).

There are many reasons girls choose to work in an AO club and for the most part they can not get in to a Sharks, most do not have the looks. Most could not command the same money a cute little Shark can. I could list several reasons they choose an AO club but not worth it but it is worth pointing out that they do not care anymore, that they have STD's etc is just plain stupidity. That also implies they would be knowingly passing on STD's possibly and when you start making statements like that it is almost borderline character assassination of those girls. They do not want an STD. You seem to describe them and portray them in a way that they are a disease infested sub human being. I can assure you these AO club girls would rather not have to be pumped full of 10-20 loads of cum a day and they are fully aware of the risks but sadly it is the only way for them to make money now to support their kids, pay their bills and it is not like they come from wealthy families in Beverly Hills. In fact I went to college with several girls from Beverly Hills and the only reason I mention the Beverly Hills suburb is because a girl from Beverly Hills who was 19 (yep, right in that 18-20 range) did a gangbang in the basement of our frat house and 4 guys had to go to the doctor within the following week. While they were contracting an STD from the wealthy Beverly Hills 19 year old I was with a skank I picked up on Boylston Street by Fenway Park fucking her in some back alley apartment contracting no STD.

I am not an idiot fully aware I am playing a higher risk game going to AO Clubs but I am aware of the risks and do not want an STD. The same can be said of the girls who work there. They have brains and are not stupid. They also have hearts that I think are much nicer than the kunts in the mainstream clubs that bareback much more than any of us realize and on top of it want a crisp 50 or 100 note and a tip. Remember, if you play in an AO Club, a mainstream club or even the RLD you take a risk. If you are going to be in the pay for play world I suggest that all of us access our own risk. As for me when I choose how and with who I play I always play under the assumption that I take a risk with each appointment and also that each girl I see barebacked the prior client. They all bareback someone. Bareback trends worldwide have changed, guys I know are now doing AO in Thailand, Colombia, Mexico and especially in the USA the bareback sex has increased dramatically. Semen can live in the female body for quite some time, most likely the next time you see a mainstream girl and eat her out or fuck her your mouth or cock is coming in contact with another mans DNA. DNA cocktails are served outside of AO clubs too.

Be careful with that 18-20 crowd, I know more guys here who have contracted an STD from the 18-25 (a little higher than your 20) crowd than any other age category and I know this is the USA not Germany however the dynamics of AO / BBFS are pretty much the same, just the platform / location changes. I have not commented on any of these AO posts simply because everything posted the last few days to me is beating a dead horse as not one comment I see is new to me. This very subject has been posted about over and over on all the USA boards for 20 plus years now. Same shit different year. Nothing here is new to me. Everything is regurgitated opinions that have been posted for 20 years only difference being we are discussing it in Germany but bareback is bareback whether it be me pumping a creampie in to a Gypsy, pumping a creampie in to a wild and fun Mexican girl like last night at FKK Holiday Inn or perhaps the President of a western country pumping a hot load of cum in to a porn star.

However what you posted to me did stand out, the content IMO pure garbage. Let me make it clear to I am not attacking you personally as you have every right to buy the hogwash you posted but I will call it one of the most uninformed posts I have read since joining my first hooker board in the 1990 era. I highly disagree with 90 percent of what you posted however I 100 percent agree with your right to post it and believe what you want. We can not all agree all the time. If we all agreed on all subjects and all liked the same girls only we would not need message boards.

Thank you for posting what you did, once again I highly dissent from what you posted not your right to post it or you as a person / fellow member. Back and forth ' polite and civil' disagreements make these places better IMHO.

Happy mongering, enjoy whatever it is you do, assess your own risk and have fun, that we all have in common. This game is not risk free, if someone wants to pass judgement on me for excessive visits to sit on red couches I would hope they would pass the judgement on my choices not on me as a person. That is what I have tried to do here, counter your points not you nor your right to think that way. Just try to keep in mind that many of these girls we all fuck be it in a mainstream club and especially the AO clubs are not born in to the same world of economic opportunity especially ones in AO clubs. They are good people too and to insinuate they are STD infected and passing them on (which you have by your wording) is plain wrong, once again simply my opinion which is no more or less important than yours.

Respectfully,

KC.

Kosher Kowboy,

You wrote a short novel here. Am I entitled to my opinion here? What parts of my post offended you? Just tell me and I will write here again.

[QUOTE=Bfsie;2165532]Kosher Kowboy,

You wrote a short novel here. Am I entitled to my opinion here? What parts of my post offended you? Just tell me and I will write here again.[/QUOTE]Apologies for the novel, our government shut our boards down ( indirectly) so my keyboard is lonely.

Absolutely you are entitled to your opinion, we all are. Read and reply as you see fit.

Sorry for the length, I think I incorporated some AO thoughts both related to your posts and some other ones that went up the past few days that I did not reply too.

Sorry, I am bored with nothing to do today yet but watch the market tick (watching paint dry).

Be happy to read your reply.

KK. Thank you for your insistence on polite and civilised discussion. Unlike many ISG members you show it is possible to disagree (as you and I do on some matters) and remain on good terms.

As for AO girls not caring about STDs. Every one I have discussed this with have been very concerned and are horrified if any of their colleagues, or themselves, get an infection. They are as reluctant as anybody to get ill (I wish I could convince them to stop smoking).

Bfsie. KK did specifically encourage you to continue writing your opinion. I think the crux of the discussion was your suggestion that working girls in AO clubs only work there because they got STDs before working there, and don't care about repeat infections. I am not sure where you got this information from but it contradicts my own experience 100%. They get tested ad nauseam, take prophylactic antibiotics, and worry.

Rocky. Girls in AO Clubs get tested. Girls in non AO Clubs may well never get tested.

Cheers to you all.

It seems like the FKK clubs located in Frankfurt itself (Mainhattan and Palace) follow the condom law strictly, more so than other clubs based on posts I read here. Why is that?

[QUOTE=Optimist;2165541]
I think the crux of the discussion was your suggestion that working girls in AO clubs only work there because they got STDs before working there, and don't care about repeat infections. I am not sure where you got this information from but it contradicts my own experience 100%.

[/QUOTE]I don't want admin to label me as a argumentative member and delay my post in the future, so this is my last post on this topic. I do have the sources telling me about this. Let's leave this like that.

[QUOTE=Bfsie;2165564]I don't want admin to label me as a argumentative member and delay my post in the future, so this is my last post on this topic. I do have the sources telling me about this. Let's leave this like that.[/QUOTE]I do not think there is anything argumentative in your posts at all, rather very good discussion material. I hope you rejoin the discussion. I disagree with your points, not your right to voice them. I think ' argumentative' would refer more to attacking another member's character not their message or simply disagreeing to disagree with no intention of carrying on a discussion related to the content.

[QUOTE=Optimist;2165541]Bfsie. KK did specifically encourage you to continue writing your opinion. I think the crux of the discussion was your suggestion that working girls in AO clubs only work there because they got STDs before working there, and don't care about repeat infections. I am not sure where you got this information from but it contradicts my own experience 100%. They get tested ad nauseam, take prophylactic antibiotics, and worry.

Rocky. Girls in AO Clubs get tested. Girls in non AO Clubs may well never get tested..[/QUOTE]Correct on the crux of my points it just so happens I expanded quite a bit on the topic. And yes, I do hope to hear what Bfsie feels on my reply to his statements if he chooses to post. Polite and civil always works best as you say, keeps members focused on the topics at hand rather than flaming each other and firing insults which certainly block the flow of good discussions. Which is why I dissented against the opinion of Bfsie not he the poster. We are all equals. We just do not think alike at times and this is good otherwise the red couches would be too full. Or maybe empty.

On top of the Crux you refer I also wanted to bring to light the hypocrisies that exist that if you AO a Gypsy you will be in a coffin tomorrow but if you AO in a mainstream club you are sticking your dick in the Virgin Mary. AO is beyond rife in the mainstream clubs, guys go between clubs including AO clubs. ' Cross contamination' is unavoidable so IMHO for one to think you can AO some girl at a real FKK club 'safely' is IMO not correct.

[QUOTE=Pistons;2165221] But she gets it more nowadays that she is not my type. But she is still shittalking me to her friends behind my back. I don't know what she says, but her friends don't go with me. Too bad for them I guess. The Angelina influence won't make them much money if that's their tactics to trust in her.[/QUOTE]Harassment pure and simple. And who is funding this behavior? We are!

We are like the rich husband whose wife lives a lavish lifestyle supported by him, and disdains him behind his back, and bit by bit in public too. All the time she pushes the boundaries, seeing what she can get away with, while he puts on a brave face.

If management won't listen to you at an FKK, go to another place. Easier said than done I know, but we have to stop funding the MMFKKs! Money talks and right now what we are saying is, "This behavior is normal and acceptable. This is how we value ourselves. ".

"Any wine will get you high.

Judge like a king, and choose the purest".

Mathnawi IV, 2683-96, Rumi.

Condom use absolutely decreases the risk of both of those. While Herpes can be transmitted through skin-skin contact, it still prevents spread from bodily fluids and sores located on the penis. Condoms are highly effective at preventing Gonorrhoea transmission.

Indeed Polyamorist. Thankfully there is only one Angelina though. But she is from the underworld. I once had a dream. She was in it, but she had horns on her head. Quite freak dream. LOL!

[QUOTE=Polyamorist;2165572]Harassment pure and simple. And who is funding this behavior? We are!

We are like the rich husband whose wife lives a lavish lifestyle supported by him, and disdains him behind his back, and bit by bit in public too. All the time she pushes the boundaries, seeing what she can get away with, while he puts on a brave face.

If management won't listen to you at an FKK, go to another place. Easier said than done I know, but we have to stop funding the MMFKKs! Money talks and right now what we are saying is, "This behavior is normal and acceptable. This is how we value ourselves. ".

"Any wine will get you high.

Judge like a king, and choose the purest".

Mathnawi IV, 2683-96, Rumi.[/QUOTE]You sure know your Sufism.

[QUOTE=MrHo;2165458]Marketa was saving to do her business in Prague, so she must be somewhere in that beautiful city, she was great and all natural and no tattoo. Golden era of Artemis. Another one I miss is Geraldine Hungarian, Coco Greek albanian, Joy German also know as July in Palace, Kimmi blonde German from Berlin also worked in Palace, Ivy German girl from Hamburg, and list continue. FKK Artemis had real gold era from 2009 till 2015. It was very good 6 years.

Well now we are not doing too bad at all, so let us crave for the best stunners we can find here and there in various FKK.[/QUOTE]Yes, many top girls leave. Thankfully some top girls also return, and new ones join the ranks too. Or if you are lucky, you may stumble upon a girl you thought had left long ago, like I did at Wellcum last summer with Natali from Oase. Then there are girls who tell everyone including their friends that they are leaving the business only to leave the club, then I bump into them at a different club like I did with a girl at Oceans who had told all her Wellcum friends that she was quitting for good.

Too bad with Artemis's demise. It could be a generational thing and the club can always make a comeback like other clubs have done elsewhere such as Oase and Palace. But maybe the management was played out after that raid 2 years ago. There are still a few good girls at Artemis, but it is less of a destination worth several days in a row like it used to be. Nowadays Wellcum has taken over that role for me as a solo club with solid lineup. While the Hessen and NRW clubs more help each other.

[QUOTE=Bitumen;2165584]You sure know your Sufism.[/QUOTE]Jazakallah Bitumen, if you're into it there's a great parable by the same poet on the dangers of the animal-soul:

[URL]http://www.naseeb.com/journals/very-interesting-rumi-poem-x-rated-7756[/URL]

[QUOTE=Neurosynth;2165306]...

Also given intercourse with a man who *IS HIV infected*, the transmission rate to women is 0.08% for vaginal intercourse, and 1.38% for anal.

[URL]https://www.cdc.gov/hiv/risk/estimates/riskbehaviors.html[/URL][/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=UncleOx;2165332]I have read several articles related to those observational studies. Actually, the risk of acquiring HIV is about "per coital act" instead of "per sexual intercourse". So I believe the actual risk should be about 4%-8% per penile-vaginal intercourse if exposures to an infected source.[/QUOTE]Yes, per act, that's what I've been saying. But your notion that the risk is 4%-8% is incorrect. See the linked CDC statistics above. Given an infected partner, 8 in 10,000 vaginal male to female events will result in infection, and 4 in 10,000 for female to male.

8/10,000 = 0. 0008 = 0. 08% infected male to female transmission rate.

4/10,000 = 0. 0004 = 0. 04% infected female to male transmission rate.

And that's when the first partner is 100% surely infected. When talking about random encounters you have to multiply the possibility of encountering someone who is HIV infected by the possibility of transmission.

I also provided a reference that puts the probability of encountering HIV in a random sex worker in Germany at 0. 2%.

See page 14. [URL]https://ecdc.europa.eu/sites/portal/files/media/en/publications/Publications/dublin-declaration-sex-workers.pdf[/URL].

So the probability of a man getting HIV from a single random encounter with a female German sex worker is:

0. 002 * 0. 0004 = 0. 0000008 = 0. 00008%.

[QUOTE=UltraHappy;2165209]Good point. Thank you for injecting the voice of reason into this so-called "discussion. " There is no need to glorify activities which expose our working girls to unnecessary risks or which force our working girls to have to take "breaks" during certain treatments, thereby depriving everyone else from enjoying their company for certain periods of time.

So, thank you BigBuddy69.[/QUOTE]Come on, that's an arbitrary line for unnecessary risk.

BBBJ is an unnecessary risk but it feels way better than CBJ. Married men fucking prostitutes is an unnecessary risk, but it feels better than fucking the same middle or old age, monotonous vagina. Arbitrary.

TD.

[QUOTE=Bfsie;2165564]I don't want admin to label me as a argumentative member and delay my post in the future, so this is my last post on this topic. I do have the sources telling me about this. Let's leave this like that.[/QUOTE]Ok. I accept you have some information of some kind different to my experience/information. I am interested to hear that you have these sources.

No way can you be labelled argumentative. You have replied with good grace

Cheers.

[QUOTE=Neurosynth;2165591]4/10,000 = 0. 0004 = 0. 04% infected female to male transmission rate.

And that's when the first partner is 100% surely infected. When talking about random encounters you have to multiply the possibility of encountering someone who is HIV infected by the possibility of transmission.

I also provided a reference that puts the probability of encountering HIV in a random sex worker in Germany at 0. 2%.

See page 14. [URL]https://ecdc.europa.eu/sites/portal/files/media/en/publications/Publications/dublin-declaration-sex-workers.pdf[/URL].

So the probability of a man getting HIV from a single random encounter with a female German sex worker is:

0. 002 * 0. 0004 = 0. 0000008 = 0. 00008%.[/QUOTE]Don't forget that your 0.04 % was calculated on a sample of women who were diagnosed with HIV and taking care of their health. If you have sex with a woman in the first stage of infection and with some others frequent STD like gonorrhoea and chlamydia because she's fucking 10 different guys BB per day, the risks are probably much higher.

[QUOTE=Neurosynth;2165591]8/10,000 = 0. 0008 = 0. 08% infected male to female transmission rate.

4/10,000 = 0. 0004 = 0. 04% infected female to male transmission rate.
......
So the probability of a man getting HIV from a single random encounter with a female German sex worker is:
0. 002 * 0. 0004 = 0. 0000008 = 0. 00008%.[/QUOTE]Congratulation, you believe these numbers, and conclude that BBFS in FKK clubs is extremely safe.

The 0.04% infected female to male transmission rate, means, (Assume a WG works 250 days / year), a lucky BBFS guy keeps [B]fucking a HIV infected WG daily for about 10 years[/B], he would have only one single chance to get HIV infection.

I don't believe this BS numbers.

On the other hand, HIV Prevalence among female sex workers in Germany is much higher than 0. 2%.

I once saw a report that HIV Prevalence among male and female sex workers is very close. If HIV Prevalence for male providers is 20%, then it would never be so low for female providers.

Anyway, enjoy your BBFS, good luck.

[QUOTE=KosherKowboy;2165519]Avoid the known BB girls at mainstream clubs, probably a wise idea and I agree if one is worried about an STD to do such, to each their own. Now I ask how do you know the ' non well known' BB WG do not really bareback. (They do, all do some it is just more obvious and known) How do you know if a guy just left some random AO Day Care Center with an STD and will do as you say see a lower volume Shark (not picking on Sharks, Sharks being used generically for mainstream clubs) and infect her right before you see her and pick up a present from the Day Care Center delivered to Darmstadt unknowingly? [/QUOTE]When Bfsie writes that he selectively chooses his BBFS targets based on intuition, I think he means this: he picks only from the pool of WGs that he believes to be strictly "condom only". Then he uses his looks, charm, and experience to seduce his inexperienced target, so that he becomes her first AO experience with a customer.

[QUOTE=McAdonis;2165663]When Bfsie writes that he selectively chooses his BBFS targets based on intuition, I think he means this: he picks only from the pool of WGs that he believes to be strictly "condom only". Then he uses his looks, charm, and experience to seduce his inexperienced target, so that he becomes her first AO experience with a customer.[/QUOTE]If that system works all the power to him or anyone else who uses that system. All systems are fine if they work except for one; that being the guys who switch positions and rip the condom off in between swapping positions and shove it in. Happens here unfortunately. One of my CFS regs had it happen the other night the guy ended up on the DNS list that gets circulated. Sadly, we have dirtballs among us and I am sure some clown has done that to a WG in an FKK. Other than that I am a fan of whatever works. To each his own. I would however like to borrow some looks and charms though to help my cause. The journey to AO Land has many avenues and paths to arrive at destination, for those that enjoy this activity one must find their groove and what works for them. As to being the first AO experience with a client ever or for that day my thought is ' you are never first and you are never last'.

I always assume they were previously ' vashed'.

[QUOTE=McAdonis;2165663]When Bfsie writes that he selectively chooses his BBFS targets based on intuition, I think he means this: he picks only from the pool of WGs that he believes to be strictly "condom only". Then he uses his looks, charm, and experience to seduce his inexperienced target, so that he becomes her first AO experience with a customer.[/QUOTE]Also known as the Russian tactic?

In mother Russia you don't play the game, the game plays you.

As seen from the girls perspective of course.

[QUOTE=McAdonis;2165663]When Bfsie writes that he selectively chooses his BBFS targets based on intuition, I think he means this: he picks only from the pool of WGs that he believes to be strictly "condom only". Then he uses his looks, charm, and experience to seduce his inexperienced target, so that he becomes her first AO experience with a customer.[/QUOTE]Hi McAdonis,

If I may take the liberty to suggest, how you have interpreted Bfsie's intuition sounds a tad negative hinting at an older more experienced man (with power) derived from the attributes you have listed has taken advantage of as you say an inexperienced "target" which is a much younger girl as Bfsie has explained. I am quite sure you are not seriously suggesting that here but wish you will confirm that this is the case to alleviate some fears. Thank you.

[QUOTE=Polyamorist;2165590]Jazakallah Bitumen, if you're into it there's a great parable by the same poet on the dangers of the animal-soul:

[URL]http://www.naseeb.com/journals/very-interesting-rumi-poem-x-rated-7756[/URL][/QUOTE]Remember: any loving is good loving. Nice after dinner anecdote.

[QUOTE=MythoVirus;2165476]Since we are on the topic of BBFS, and HIV probabilty, no one mentioned the benefits of circumcision, last time I checked it does confer protection against HIV, as the foreskin is highly populated by an immue cell called dendric cells, which are the target cells for HIV itself, removal of the foreskin on the other hand significantly decrease those cells, ergo decreasing the chance of being infected with HIV. No pushing an agends or anything, just worth a read.[/QUOTE]The implication of what you have described means it's safer for working girls to bare back an Ottoman since they will be circumcised. Maybe this helps with conversion or why the girls like a relationship with an Ottoman. Just a suggestion.

[QUOTE=Bitumen;2165680]Hi McAdonis,

If I may take the liberty to suggest, how you have interpreted Bfsie's intuition sounds a tad negative hinting at an older more experienced man (with power) derived from the attributes you have listed has taken advantage of as you say an inexperienced "target" which is a much younger girl as Bfsie has explained. I am quite sure you are not seriously suggesting that here but wish you will confirm that this is the case to alleviate some fears. Thank you.[/QUOTE]I used the word "target" all the time when I am speaking with other customers in the club. The context: asking them which WG they plan to session with next. Also the "target" is not always some innocent prey unable to defend themself. I'd say Egyptian Angelina "targets" newbies. But she's 97% unsuccessful. So the "targets" have the wherewithal to stand their ground and assertively tell her to go away.

With regards to taking advantage, age and experience does not matter. Nor does age and experience connote "power". I'd say many of these younger WGs take advantage of much older, experienced customers by draining their savings. Taking advantage to me would be a Weinstein-type situation. She does not WANT to fuck him, but she does it only because he holds the key to their dreams and aspirations. I can't think of any customers who would hold that amount of power over a WG. Maybe if said customer knows the owner and can get her fired? Or if said customer threatens to out her as a WG to all her friends and family on FB?

Bfsie clearly is confident that he can ignite the chemistry so that WGs actually want to fuck him. That is different from a man with power who blackmails a woman for sex. But in the end it is just my interpretation. I could be completely wrong. Bfsie can correct me and I will take zero offense.

My original post did not seem negative to me. KK and Pistons responded to it, maybe they though it was negative too? I don't proof-read every single word in my posts. A third of posters are moderated around here it seems, presumably because someone found their post offensive and reported them. Maybe I should be next.

[QUOTE=MythoVirus;2165476]Since we are on the topic of BBFS, and HIV probabilty, no one mentioned the benefits of circumcision, ....[/QUOTE]Let's say no to sexual mutilations!

Even if it's only males being mutilated and not "poor lill'girls", sexual mutilations are barbaric. Regarless of gender.

[QUOTE=McAdonis;2165703]My original post did not seem negative to me. KK and Pistons responded to it, maybe they though it was negative too? I don't proof-read every single word in my posts. A third of posters are moderated around here it seems, presumably because someone found their post offensive and reported them. Maybe I should be next.[/QUOTE]Not at all was it negative. But like I normally do, I try to switch up the context and paradigm to put things in perspective. In this case making Bfsie the prey instead of the hunter. But you can switch these things around too if you wish.

[QUOTE=Bitumen;2165686]The implication of what you have described means it's safer for working girls to bare back an Ottoman since they will be circumcised. Maybe this helps with conversion or why the girls like a relationship with an Ottoman. Just a suggestion.[/QUOTE]With this rationale it's fair to say the FKK ladies are more likely to BB men with less Smegma, I think commonly referred to by some women in the business as White Dick Cheese. As a circumcised male, I can tell you I have been told on multiple occasions by WG that they prefer performing oral, BB or Covered, on a easy to see that it's clean, without sores, and fresh smelling dick. I love reading ISG in the middle of the night when I can't sleep. I never knew there was an actual word for White Dick Cheese. I will take great pleasure in spreading this knowledge to women while spreading legs and parting lips around the FKK arena.

All these analysis of STDs stats are really a complete waste of time. Stats reflect group of people/encounters as a whole and not individual people and encounters. It doesn't reflect your lifestyle and / or genes and / or other factors that could make you more susceptible than the "average" person for certain diseases. It doesn't reflect the viral load of the girls you are BBFSing with.

She could be a walking bag of HIV virus vs. she caught HIV from 24 hours before your session changes the risk. She could be testing regularly but if she picked up an STD the first session immediately after providing her blood sample, it renders the negative result she receives two days later meaningless. If the STD she picks up have a long seroconversion period, then the negative results from her next several tests could also be false negatives. By the time the test returns positive, she could have been infecting various customers for weeks without knowing.

Just because that stats is 1% doesn't reflect your individual risk. If it is not 0%, then it means someone caught it and whether it is 10% or 0.04% or 0.000001% is really irrelevant if YOU happen to be that 0.000001%.

What matters is are you wiling to accept the consequences of being infected with a life-changing STD? For some mongers, maybe they don't give a fuck while others, maybe with wife and young kids may have less tolerance to the impacts of catching something as minor as oral herpes/gonorrhea/chlamydia.

There's really no point pushing stats to exaggerate or downplay risks from BBFS as they really have no meaning to an individual. It's an individual monger's choice on whether they are willing to accept risks and consequences STDs present.

[QUOTE=MrHo;2165432]That is what I plan to do. I do bareback here at home with working girls, but I also choose too.

Also being in FKK for 9 years without bareback sex, but with all other BBBJ etc and I never got any std in FKK so far, also I never read any std reports from FKK. It is odd though because many of these girls in FKK are quite reckless and fuck so many guys in FKK and outside, but yet, I never heard of incidents of std in FKK.[/QUOTE]I suspect not many established board member would go around and advertise they caught a STD especially if they hang out in person with other board members. They would probably setup a duplicate account to do so but then get they get their credibility challenged when people see the low post count of the duplicate account.

[QUOTE=McAdonis;2165703]I used the word "target" all the time when I am speaking with other customers in the club. The context: asking them which WG they plan to session with next. Also the "target" is not always some innocent prey unable to defend themself. I'd say Egyptian Angelina "targets" newbies. But she's 97% unsuccessful. So the "targets" have the wherewithal to stand their ground and assertively tell her to go away.

With regards to taking advantage, age and experience does not matter. Nor does age and experience connote "power". I'd say many of these younger WGs take advantage of much older, experienced customers by draining their savings. Taking advantage to me would be a Weinstein-type situation. She does not WANT to fuck him, but she does it only because he holds the key to their dreams and aspirations. I can't think of any customers who would hold that amount of power over a WG. Maybe if said customer knows the owner and can get her fired? Or if said customer threatens to out her as a WG to all her friends and family on FB?

Bfsie clearly is confident that he can ignite the chemistry so that WGs actually want to fuck him. That is different from a man with power who blackmails a woman for sex. But in the end it is just my interpretation. I could be completely wrong. Bfsie can correct me and I will take zero offense.

My original post did not seem negative to me. KK and Pistons responded to it, maybe they though it was negative too? I don't proof-read every single word in my posts. A third of posters are moderated around here it seems, presumably because someone found their post offensive and reported them. Maybe I should be next.[/QUOTE]I also build a target list when I go to the clubs, containing the names of women I hope to session with. Maybe I should change to a more politically sensitive term, perhaps a "List of Eves". No, Eve has a gender and religious context. Can we settle on a "List of Them"?

Anyway, I'm not sure if I'm taking advantage of my List of Them or if they take advantage of me. It seems my abundance of good looks, experience and charm transfer to Them by the end of most nights.

Fact is, only a tiny bit of the customers go unprotected, so the risk is really minuscule if you go the extra length paying a fortune. And besides, it is even illegal now. So this is an oxymoron topic anyway.

[QUOTE=TransAtlantic;2165771]I suspect not many established board member would go around and advertise they caught a STD especially if they hang out in person with other board members. They would probably setup a duplicate account to do so but then get they get their credibility challenged when people see the low post count of the duplicate account.[/QUOTE]No need to be secretive. I visited the AO places in Moers half a decade ago. I visited 5 times and got chlamydia twice. I fucked 2 or 3 girls each time. Doxocycline worked but it put me off AO in Europe. To me it seemed the risk was at least 10 times that of Indonesia or Africa where I had been barebacking then.

Fucking style might be a factor (protracted pounding with hardly any BJs being the worse).

Now I find sex with 0.02 polyurethane condoms is nearly as good as barebacking.

[QUOTE=XXL;2165782]No need to be secretive. I visited the AO places in Moers half a decade ago. I visited 5 times and got chlamydia twice. I fucked 2 or 3 girls each time. Doxocycline worked but it put me off AO in Europe. To me it seemed the risk was at least 10 times that of Indonesia or Africa.[/QUOTE]Bacterial STDs are treatable with no lasting effects. It's like catching a food poisoning or other bacterial infection but just go on several weeks of doxocycline to clean up. If a established member who know other members in real-life or perhaps go on monger trips together and did catch something that is not curable, I suspect it won't be as openly advertised.

My point to Mr. Ho is just because it is not reported does not mean he can interpret it as no one on this board caught a life-changing STD from BBFS.

[QUOTE=TransAtlantic;2165771]All these analysis of STDs stats are really a complete waste of time. Stats reflect group of people/encounters as a whole and not individual people and encounters. It doesn't reflect your lifestyle and / or genes and / or other factors that could make you more susceptible than the "average" person for certain diseases. It doesn't reflect the viral load of the girls you are BBFSing with.

She could be a walking bag of HIV virus vs. she caught HIV from 24 hours before your session changes the risk. She could be testing regularly but if she picked up an STD the first session immediately after providing her blood sample, it renders the negative result she receives two days later meaningless. If the STD she picks up have a long seroconversion period, then the negative results from her next several tests could also be false negatives. By the time the test returns positive, she could have been infecting various customers for weeks without knowing.

Just because that stats is 1% doesn't reflect your individual risk. If it is not 0%, then it means someone caught it and whether it is 10% or 0.04% or 0.000001% is really irrelevant if YOU happen to be that 0.000001%.

What matters is are you wiling to accept the consequences of being infected with a life-changing STD? For some mongers, maybe they don't give a fuck while others, maybe with wife and young kids may have less tolerance to the impacts of catching something as minor as oral herpes/gonorrhea/chlamydia.

There's really no point pushing stats to exaggerate or downplay risks from BBFS as they really have no meaning to an individual. It's an individual monger's choice on whether they are willing to accept risks and consequences STDs present.

I suspect not many established board member would go around and advertise they caught a STD especially if they hang out in person with other board members. They would probably setup a duplicate account to do so but then get they get their credibility challenged when people see the low post count of the duplicate account.[/QUOTE]Hmmm. BBFS is magical feeling, but yes it can be life changing and lasting. It is like getting hit by car crossing street.

I would not go to AO club though I always had interest to go, but I always thought looks of girls can be limited plus the hygiene issue stopped me from going.

I have to say though, I would have ask to do BBFS with some of my favorite in past, but somehow I never did in the past even bother to think about it. I propably will in future if I find someone worth a try.

If I get STD, I be the first on this board nagging LOL LOL!

However, with BBBJ, DATY and all other filthy activities, never caught anything yet in my over 21 years or more of mongering experience and about 9 years of that in German FKK. Let hope I go healthy all the way during my mongering life. If I become martyr of mongering life. , then. Gentlemen, it was worth a ride to be a monger rider around the globe LOL LOL! It was worth every tute, every minute, every sex.

Once a old monger told me on this forum and I took that a life lesson below.

Every dollar not spent on beautiful tute is a waste of money and waste of life.

So knowing above lesson, I strive to spend my free time and money on many beautiful tute till I die, I began mongering at about age 17 or 18, I am 38 this year, so hopefully I got at least 32 years more to fuck LOL! Or more LOL.

It was a helluva ride, and it will be helluva ride to be global monger rider LOL!

[QUOTE=TransAtlantic;2165784]Bacterial STDs are treatable with no lasting effects. It's like catching a food poisoning or other bacterial infection but just go on several weeks of doxocycline to clean up. If a established member who know other members in real-life or perhaps go on monger trips together and did catch something that is not curable, I suspect it won't be as openly advertised.

My point to Mr. Ho is just because it is not reported does not mean he can interpret it as no one on this board caught a life-changing STD from BBFS.[/QUOTE]Right, so I ask you brave ones out of all mongers there, those who got std please speak up and share your ouch experience and repent or not repent on this forum. Anyone?

To begin with, I got no std, but I cut my dick several years ago during FKK as they sucked me too much, then it got repetition cut like boxer getting cut during fight. It took like a year till it get fixed fully, now it came back strong as rocky balboa, I can get sucked all day long and it is ok now.

[QUOTE=Bitumen;2165686]The implication of what you have described means it's safer for working girls to bare back an Ottoman since they will be circumcised. Maybe this helps with conversion or why the girls like a relationship with an Ottoman. Just a suggestion.[/QUOTE]In reality, according to the WHO and CDC, three randomized trials showed, circumcision does show to be 60% protective against HIV for the man. However once the man gets it, the % risk of him transmitting the HIV to a female is more or less the same if circumcised or not. So if the WG is a book nerd then this fact won't increase her chance to bb an Ottoman compared to non circumcised men.

[QUOTE=XXL;2165713]Let's say no to sexual mutilations!

Even if it's only males being mutilated and not "poor lill'girls", sexual mutilations are barbaric. Regarless of gender.[/QUOTE]Circumcision can be an interesting ethical topic. But from a scientific point it shows to have more pros than cons, then it's worth investigating isn't it and to me it's fine if the male consents. But mass-neonate circumcision I do understand where you are coming from.

In my past trip in January, I got flashed for speeding. I got an administration fee and letter from Hertz, but did not get the actual ticket from the authorities. I asked Hertz about it, they sent me a copy of the notice they got from authorities yet; it is a small amount of fine (I think like 10 Euros) for speeding less than 10 km / h in an 80 km zone. They told me to wait for the ticket in the mail. Again, I have not received the ticket yet, and I really want to pay the fine to prevent any remote possible problems in the future for renting cars, etc. Any ideas how to approach this? Please don't tell me you have got a ticket too and teared it up, or ignored it, etc. I need practical advice on how to find out the ways I can pay it and don't want to let it sit there in my records.

Thanks!

Usually the rental company pays the smaller fines directly and then invoices you plus the handling fee. Check the invoice again, probably the fine is paid and all fine.

[QUOTE=Trombone;2165926]In my past trip in January, I got flashed for speeding. I got an administration fee and letter from Hertz, but did not get the actual ticket from the authorities. I asked Hertz about it, they sent me a copy of the notice they got from authorities yet; it is a small amount of fine (I think like 10 Euros) for speeding less than 10 km / h in an 80 km zone. They told me to wait for the ticket in the mail. Again, I have not received the ticket yet, and I really want to pay the fine to prevent any remote possible problems in the future for renting cars, etc. Any ideas how to approach this? Please don't tell me you have got a ticket too and teared it up, or ignored it, etc. I need practical advice on how to find out the ways I can pay it and don't want to let it sit there in my records.

Thanks![/QUOTE]On the penalty notice there will be the bank account details usually an IBAN and reference number to quote for making the payment of 10 euro fine. Just look at the copy of the letter that Hertz sent you for this information.

[QUOTE=Trombone;2165926]In my past trip in January, I got flashed for speeding. I got an administration fee and letter from Hertz, but did not get the actual ticket from the authorities. I asked Hertz about it, they sent me a copy of the notice they got from authorities yet; it is a small amount of fine (I think like 10 Euros) for speeding less than 10 km / h in an 80 km zone. They told me to wait for the ticket in the mail. Again, I have not received the ticket yet, and I really want to pay the fine to prevent any remote possible problems in the future for renting cars, etc. Any ideas how to approach this? Please don't tell me you have got a ticket too and teared it up, or ignored it, etc. I need practical advice on how to find out the ways I can pay it and don't want to let it sit there in my records.

Thanks![/QUOTE]Do you live in Europe? If not, it is very likely the authorities dropped the matter because trying to collect from a driver outside of the continent has a low probably of success and not worth their time over a €10 fine. And no you will not have any issues with future rentals in Germany or even Hertz Germany. You will likely also find that the processing fee for making an intercontinental payment far exceed the fine itself.

And yes, I ignored my €100 German speeding tickets from 5 years ago and have rented 15+ times in Germany since.

[QUOTE=UncleOx;2165639]Congratulation, you believe these numbers, and conclude that BBFS in FKK clubs is extremely safe.

The 0.04% infected female to male transmission rate, means, (Assume a WG works 250 days / year), a lucky BBFS guy keeps [B]fucking a HIV infected WG daily for about 10 years[/B], he would have only one single chance to get HIV infection.

I don't believe this BS numbers.

On the other hand, HIV Prevalence among female sex workers in Germany is much higher than 0. 2%.

I once saw a report that HIV Prevalence among male and female sex workers is very close. If HIV Prevalence for male providers is 20%, then it would never be so low for female providers.

Anyway, enjoy your BBFS, good luck.[/QUOTE]Well, again, these are the numbers published by the experts. You are free to not believe them, but your case would be more persuasive if you had citations like the ones I posted.

Here is where the 0.2% HIV rate among female German sex workers comes from. See page 14:

[URL]https://ecdc.europa.eu/sites/portal/files/media/en/publications/Publications/dublin-declaration-sex-workers.pdf[/URL]

Here is what they say about the source of their data:

"Data for female sex workers based on sentinel surveillance in 2010 and HIV testing of 3037 female sex workers seen at 30 sites providing services. ".

Here is where the 0.04% transmission rate comes from:

[URL]https://www.cdc.gov/hiv/risk/estimates/riskbehaviors.html[/URL]

Here are the studies they cite for the transmission rate:

"Patel P, Borkowf CB, Brooks JT. Et al. Estimating per-act HIV transmission risk: a systematic review. AIDS. 2014. Doi: 10.1097/ QAD. 0000000000000298.

Pretty LA, Anderson GS, Sweet DJ. Human bites and the risk of human immunodeficiency virus transmission. Am J Forensic Med Pathol 1999;20 (3):232-239. ".

[QUOTE=Neurosynth;2166055]Well, again, these are the numbers published by the experts. You are free to not believe them, but your case would be more persuasive if you had citations like the ones I posted..[/QUOTE]Most retrospective observational studies' results are not reliable. Usually, experimental design and sampling of those epidemiological studies are not rigorous. Confounding factors inside design and data collection would constantly cause huge biases in the estimate of the impact of the exposure.

I don't care whoever monger seeks BBFS if he is healthy. But [B] it matters to the safety of all of us,[/B] if a HIV-infected monger intentionally distributes HIV through BBFS practices. He is a criminal. His BBFS risky behaviors would not only jeopardize those innocent WGs, but also imperil other mongers.

[QUOTE=McAdonis;2165663]When Bfsie writes that he selectively chooses his BBFS targets based on intuition, I think he means this: he picks only from the pool of WGs that he believes to be strictly "condom only". Then he uses his looks, charm, and experience to seduce his inexperienced target, so that he becomes her first AO experience with a customer.[/QUOTE]You are exactly right. No offense to me at all.

[QUOTE=TransAtlantic;2165975]Do you live in Europe? If not, it is very likely the authorities dropped the matter because trying to collect from a driver outside of the continent has a low probably of success and not worth their time over a 10 fine. And no you will not have any issues with future rentals in Germany or even Hertz Germany. You will likely also find that the processing fee for making an intercontinental payment far exceed the fine itself.

And yes, I ignored my 100 German speeding tickets from 5 years ago and have rented 15+ times in Germany since.[/QUOTE]Well those who monger in Zurich Switzerland be aware, Swiss authority keep their traffic fine record in computer for I think 10 years.

So if you got traffic fine in Switzerland, next time you visit, they will stop you at passport control and you got to pay fine there with crazy interest rates. Or you do not enter or may even detain you.

I think it was 10 years they keep your fine record in Switzerland.

[QUOTE=XXL;2165782]No need to be secretive. I visited the AO places in Moers half a decade ago. I visited 5 times and got chlamydia twice. I fucked 2 or 3 girls each time.

Now I find sex with 0.02 polyurethane condoms is nearly as good as barebacking.[/QUOTE]Yikes! I don't like the sound of those odds. Thank you for sharing.

For me, I always wear a raincoat during sex but never for oral. I've been enjoying BBBJs for quite a number of years now and still haven't ever caught an STD. I know of guys who have caught STDs from just a BBBJ, but it just hasn't happened to me yet.

So far, from all the hundreds and hundreds of BBBJs I've had, I've caught 3 different types of fungal infections and 2 non-serious urinary tract infections. The fungal infections went away following a treatment with topical anti-fungal cream. The non-serious urinary tract infections went away on their own after 1 or 2 days. STD tests in all cases confirmed no STDs.

Just my experience.

[QUOTE=XXL;2165782]No need to be secretive. I visited the AO places in Moers half a decade ago. I visited 5 times and got chlamydia twice. I fucked 2 or 3 girls each time. Doxocycline worked but it put me off AO in Europe. To me it seemed the risk was at least 10 times that of Indonesia or Africa where I had been barebacking then.

Fucking style might be a factor (protracted pounding with hardly any BJs being the worse).

Now I find sex with 0.02 polyurethane condoms is nearly as good as barebacking.[/QUOTE]Sounds bad. Did Doxocycline or whatever that is kill the chlamydia altogether?. I guess the laws on this did have a good purpose. Although BBBJ should have been exempted as you won't contract many std's there. Except maybe herpes which most people probably have already according to statistics. I never tested myself, but I've heard from some FKK girls who says no to kissing that they had herpes and used that as an excuse, so I am guessing most FKK girls have some form of herpes. But over 90% of most populations already have one or more strains of herpes, and in most people the virus just stays dormant anyway.

My thanks to Kosher Kowboy for his soliloquy on the merits of BBFS and rimjob. It has been entertaining.

The interesting point is the sharing and caring going on between men. As Mr Ho says pussy brothers.

Kosher Kowboy points out that the guy who as finished in a woman leaving his come inside may not always be able to get all the come out of her before the next guy in the train lines up to bang her next. Subsequent customer may want to perform DATY so will go down on her and enjoy licking the pussy and the come deposit unknowingly from her pussy. As the French poet may like to say he has a meal of cyprine juices but how can we be sure that is what he is getting. There is no labelling to check like at the grocery store.

Furthermore, for the girls that perform bare back anal letting the guy come in their asshole, there is always the good chance that not all the come has been squeezed and mopped out of her butthole. Next customers enjoying a pretty girls ass may lick her butthole and also get a salty treat left over from the previous customer.

Now in my experience, I find an alarming number of girls working in this job that do not take birth control. They are relying on either luck or condoms to not become pregnant.

The reasons for not taking birth control is that they do not have support of German health service so pay private which is costly so do not get the birth control to the reason that birth control pill plays havoc with their period cycle.

This has led to times when guys perform BBFS and finished with CIP that the girl has gotten pregnant. Ok. There are solutions to this as well but it is too much stress I think.

I have heard of instances of girls needing to go away to deal with these accidents so to speak.

So maybe it is better to perform BBFS anal than BBFS pussy to avoid the pregnancy angle.

Really, there seems a lot of girls in my experience say they do not take birth control working this job.

Sharks and Oase super stars have said one of the reasons the do not perform AO or BBFS is because they do not take birth control as they hate the cyclical period that the pill generates. The girl never mentions STDs as the reason. It could be just a nice way of saying no. But then they will allow some AO sex but no CIP due to reason mentioned. There is still the risk that some spunk does come out even if you pull out when full orgasm happens. Babies do happen.

Based on this line of thinking it appears that bare back anal is safer regardless of the medical reasons of anal activity is riskier than vaginal activities.

[QUOTE=RogueNation;2165930]Usually the rental company pays the smaller fines directly and then invoices you plus the handling fee. Check the invoice again, probably the fine is paid and all fine.[/QUOTE]Rogue Nation: The fine is not included in the Hertz billing. They charged me close to 30 Euros but that was just for their admin fees. In the Hertz's bill it specifically says the ticket comes separately. Thanks.

[QUOTE=Bitumen;2165939]On the penalty notice there will be the bank account details usually an IBAN and reference number to quote for making the payment of 10 euro fine. Just look at the copy of the letter that Hertz sent you for this information.[/QUOTE]Thanks Bitumen; the Hertz's letter does not have the bank info. I directly inquired Hertz about more info on the ticket, and they said I just have to wait for the ticket to come in the mail and they do not have more info other than the letter of inquiry from the authorities which includes the case number, vehicle's info, time, date, location and nature of the offense and amount of the fine..and a B&W and grainy snapshot of me behind the wheel :).

[QUOTE=TransAtlantic;2165975]Do you live in Europe? If not, it is very likely the authorities dropped the matter because trying to collect from a driver outside of the continent has a low probably of success and not worth their time over a 10 fine. And no you will not have any issues with future rentals in Germany or even Hertz Germany. You will likely also find that the processing fee for making an intercontinental payment far exceed the fine itself.

And yes, I ignored my 100 German speeding tickets from 5 years ago and have rented 15+ times in Germany since.[/QUOTE]Thanks for the info Trans Atlantic; good to know. I don't live in Europe.

[QUOTE=Trombone;2166255]Rogue Nation: The fine is not included in the Hertz billing. They charged me close to 30 Euros but that was just for their admin fees. In the Hertz's bill it specifically says the ticket comes separately. Thanks.

Thanks Bitumen; the Hertz's letter does not have that information. I directly inquired Hertz about more info on the ticket, and they said I just have to wait for the ticket to come in the mail and they do not have more info other than the letter of inquiry from the authorities which includes the case number, vehicle's info, time, date, location and nature of the offense and amount of the fine.

Thanks for the info Trans Atlantic; good to know. I don't live in Europe.[/QUOTE]Trombone. Sorry. I thought Hertz sent you a copy of the penalty notice. What Hertz has done has just sent you a letter from Hertz.

Okay Hertz have not passed you the penalty notice then you need to wait for it to be reissued to you from Hertz.

[QUOTE=Bitumen;2166242]My thanks to Kosher Kowboy for his soliloquy on the merits of BBFS and rimjob. It has been entertaining.

The interesting point is the sharing and caring going on between men. As Mr Ho says pussy brothers.

Kosher Kowboy points out that the guy who as finished in a woman leaving his come inside may not always be able to get all the come out of her before the next guy in the train lines up to bang her next. Subsequent customer may want to perform DATY so will go down on her and enjoy licking the pussy and the come deposit unknowingly from her pussy. As the French poet may like to say he has a meal of cyprine juices but how can we be sure that is what he is getting. There is no labelling to check like at the grocery store.

Furthermore, for the girls that perform bare back anal letting the guy come in their asshole, there is always the good chance that not all the come has been squeezed and mopped out of her butthole. Next customers enjoying a pretty girls ass may lick her butthole and also get a salty treat left over from the previous customer..[/QUOTE]We are hole brothers whom spent sometime in same cave LOL.

Well down side of bareback anal is that it increases the risk to HIV etc drastically.

HIV are infected mostly via bareback anal sex than bareback pussy intercourse. Via pussy it is hard to get hiv actually.

So bareback anal is not recommended unless you really knows the girl you are doing with.

I have done bareback finger anal a lot of time in FKK, but no bareback sex in pussy or anal at FKK yet. Pussy I might try.

Best anal bareback fingering was with Geraldine from Hungary in artemis. I enjoyed poking her anal with my fingers like a hentai medical doctor LOL Dr hentai LOL LOL!

[QUOTE=Trombone;2165926]In my past trip in January, I got flashed for speeding. I got an administration fee and letter from Hertz, but did not get the actual ticket from the authorities. I asked Hertz about it, they sent me a copy of the notice they got from authorities yet; it is a small amount of fine (I think like 10 Euros) for speeding less than 10 km / h in an 80 km zone. They told me to wait for the ticket in the mail. Again, I have not received the ticket yet, and I really want to pay the fine to prevent any remote possible problems in the future for renting cars, etc. Any ideas how to approach this? Please don't tell me you have got a ticket too and teared it up, or ignored it, etc. I need practical advice on how to find out the ways I can pay it and don't want to let it sit there in my records.

Thanks![/QUOTE]If in Germany, as long as you do not go back there, it is OK.

However, you do the same in Switzerland, they actually sent me a invoice to my home, and also statue of liberty is 10 years I think in Switzerland for traffic offence, so if I go back there, they will get me at passport control and will be with penalty and interest rates added. It was for parking and not for speeding though.

Your record stays in computer for 10 years I think in Switzerland due to statue of liberty and Swiss are very strict.

[QUOTE=Bitumen;2166242]The reasons for not taking birth control is that they do not have support of German health service so pay private which is costly so do not get the birth control to the reason that birth control pill plays havoc with their period cycle.

Sharks and Oase super stars have said one of the reasons the do not perform AO or BBFS is because they do not take birth control as they hate the cyclical period that the pill generates. The girl never mentions STDs as the reason. It could be just a nice way of saying no. [/QUOTE]The above makes sense about not being able to qualify for German government assistance to get birth control. How expensive is that stuff? If the ugly Gypsies in Dietzenbach can afford the pill or tablets as the Gypsies call them certainly a more mainstream club WG should be able to afford them. I think a lot of girls probably are on birth control and will say they are not to give them that out, it happens here often. One told me if a guy gets pushy for BBFS he will stop once he is told she is not on BC. The man has no way to know either way if she is or is not on BC but he drops his request / demand once he is told she is not. My gut is more girls are on BC as a precautionary measure that we think.

One member forget at moment who as there were many posts on it has been commenting on the similarities between Romanian and Latin cultures. For a few years back in the early 2 K's I spent nearly every weekend in the brothels on the Texas / Mexico border. I found myself encountering BBFS opportunities and one time a girl I creampied the prior week told me to pull out and not cum in her. I shot on her chest and asked her why I could not creampie her and as it turns out she like many of the others down there were timing their cycles and ovulating dates etc. When I asked why they just do not take the pill I got the reply that religion was the reason.

Brings me back to this string of posts about the tie ins between Latin and Romanian cultures. Could religion be part of the reason these girls (majority Romanian) in the FKK clubs do not take birth control? It was not just Mexico, it was also the girls in Costa Rica and most recently in Panama City the Colombian girl. All timed their cycles. All cited religion. Apparently contraception of all forms is not in sync with Christianity or the rulings of the Church. The same can be said for abortion so if you knock up a Latina odds are a little baby will be popping out (plus it is a ticket to America in their minds). For that reason they barebacked the Americans they thought had cash or they liked and made the Mexican locals wear condoms.

Are Romanians possibly not taking birth control for religious reasons or for that matter is abortion an illegal practice in Romania? It appears from the posts and the Easter (s) breaks all these gals take that Romania and their laws / culture may be shaped around religious views much like Latin America?

And what about the real Gypsies? What do Gypsies believe in anyway? (Besides laying flat on their backs getting pumped full of cum 250 or more times a month and walking away with 40 stinking Euros).

[QUOTE=KosherKowboy;2166279]The above makes sense about not being able to qualify for German government assistance to get birth control. How expensive is that stuff? If the ugly Gypsies in Dietzenbach can afford the pill or tablets as the Gypsies call them certainly a more mainstream club WG should be able to afford them. I think a lot of girls probably are on birth control and will say they are not to give them that out, it happens here often. One told me if a guy gets pushy for BBFS he will stop once he is told she is not on BC. The man has no way to know either way if she is or is not on BC but he drops his request / demand once he is told she is not. My gut is more girls are on BC as a precautionary measure that we think.

One member forget at moment who as there were many posts on it has been commenting on the similarities between Romanian and Latin cultures. For a few years back in the early 2 K's I spent nearly every weekend in the brothels on the Texas / Mexico border. I found myself encountering BBFS opportunities and one time a girl I creampied the prior week told me to pull out and not cum in her. I shot on her chest and asked her why I could not creampie her and as it turns out she like many of the others down there were timing their cycles and ovulating dates etc. When I asked why they just do not take the pill I got the reply that religion was the reason..[/QUOTE]Much talk about religion, Christianity in particular. The WGs in Mexico are likely practising Cotholics, a majority of Romanians are Othodox. I know many Romanian WGs who take birth control. I've also known Polish Catholic WGs who take birth control. I'm not sure how this weighs on the BBFS opportunities. There are multiple positions on contraception within the Orthodox religion, some allowing non-abortion types of birth control. I believe the weight of these church level beliefs have little bearing on the practices of Romanian WGs because the practice of prostitution is wholly forbidden at the church level. In summary it seems to come down to the personal beliefs of the WG.

The importance of Easter for the girls is that it is considered the most important holiday for the family to be together. It is not so much the religious undertones of the holiday, but instead, the traditional expectation that everyone in the family be together at this time of year. Historically, New Year's was also traditionally celebrated this way in Romania as well, but in more recent times, New Year's has become more of a time that you celebrate with friends and not so much with your families, so Easter has become even more important from a family gathering standpoint.

During Communist Romania, remember that abortion was illegal and not available due to Communist policies. Sex education was non-existent. Communism favored policies that promoted population growth. These policies contributed to a larger youth population but with fewer economic prospects. Ten years ago, all Romanian girls in FKK were a product of Communist Romania (any birthdate prior to Sept. 1990 means that the consummation act that produced the girl occurred in Communist Romania; yes, approximately, Sept. 1990, not Dec. 1989, assuming that human gestation period lasts 9 months, that is).

[QUOTE=UltraHappy;2166386]
During Communist Romania, remember that abortion was illegal and not available due to Communist policies. Sex education was non-existent. Communism favored policies that promoted population growth. These policies contributed to a larger youth population but with fewer economic prospects. Ten years ago, all Romanian girls in FKK were a product of Communist Romania (any birthdate prior to Sept. 1990 means that the consummation act that produced the girl occurred in Communist Romania; yes, approximately, Sept. 1990, not Dec. 1989, assuming that human gestation period lasts 9 months, that is).[/QUOTE]I've been told sex education is still non-existent in Romania. I've been told some girls believe douching, timing, pill are all the same.

[QUOTE=TransAtlantic;2166426]I've been told sex education is still non-existent in Romania. I've been told some girls believe douching, timing, pill are all the same.[/QUOTE]It is OK, Romanian girls get plenty of sex education by us mongers in FKK university. They come ignorant, they go back home with PHD degree in sex education from German FKK University LOL.

International degree too, we insert our international penis into Romanian pussy and our international cum into Romanian mouth LOL.

[QUOTE=UltraHappy;2166386]The importance of Easter for the girls is that it is considered the most important holiday for the family to be together. It is not so much the religious undertones of the holiday, but instead, the traditional expectation that everyone in the family be together at this time of year.

During Communist Romania, remember that abortion was illegal and not available due to Communist policies. Sex education was non-existent. .[/QUOTE]I hope so as from their religious point of view these Romanian girls are the sinners of sinners. But for monger like us, they are savior, so in a ways these girls are the saint savior for us mongers, they are born to suck our dick.

Well for girls with no sex education, these girls do know how to provide sex and suck dicks good LOL. Must be the DNA!

[QUOTE=TransAtlantic;2166426]I've been told sex education is still non-existent in Romania.[/QUOTE]Interestingly, all the Romanian girls are constantly warned in school about pimps and not being tricked into sex trafficking by a loverboy. In fact, they are warned so much that the Romanian school system is in effect "advertising" for this profession as an alternative career choice.

[QUOTE=UltraHappy;2166619]Interestingly, all the Romanian girls are constantly warned in school about pimps and not being tricked into sex trafficking by a loverboy. In fact, they are warned so much that the Romanian school system is in effect "advertising" for this profession as an alternative career choice.[/QUOTE]So you are basically saying Romanian school policy is actually trying to destroy us mongers ambition, demand and needs to insert our penis into Romanian girls pussy, anal and mouth.

This is very bad thing for us, very destructive educational policy to us. Threat, true threat.

We mongers have to fuck more Romanian girls in German FKK so that they go back home and spread the great news of how German FKK is the place to be when they are young as legal occupational choice.

German FKK is wonderful career choice for Romanian girls because they can say they work in cafe in Germany, and they do not waste their youth fucking for free, they get money for it and when their youth time is up, they can go back home with some money pretend they are angel girls before and invest their money into some business back home and marry normal good Romanian guy who is too naive and ignorant to know her past.

Wonderful career choice for beautiful romanian young ladies to indulge themselves during their 20's. Wonderful career choice.

[QUOTE=UltraHappy;2166619]Interestingly, all the Romanian girls are constantly warned in school about pimps and not being tricked into sex trafficking by a loverboy. In fact, they are warned so much that the Romanian school system is in effect "advertising" for this profession as an alternative career choice.[/QUOTE]LOL, so basically a normal lecture can pan out something like this?

Everybody listen up, we have a problem here in Romania with more and more girls moving to Germany, Austria or elsewhere in Europe to sell sex for money. Sometimes as much as 10000 euro a month. Normally loverboys without other jobs here in Romania will ask you to come with them to richer European countries and sell sex for money. So both you and some guy acting like he loves you can make money for a living. So I want to ask you to stay here in Romania instead. Work in a store at a shopping mall, or as a hairdresser and make 600 euro a month instead.

[QUOTE=MrHo;2166626]German FKK is wonderful career choice for Romanian girls because they can say they work in cafe in Germany, and they do not waste their youth fucking for free, they get money for it and when their youth time is up, they can go back home with some money pretend they are angel girls before and invest their money into some business back home and marry normal good Romanian guy who is too naive and ignorant to know her past.[/QUOTE]This sounds good in theory, but in practice we know what happens. The overwhelming majority of the girls don't stay in it long enough to really earn a substantial amount of money first of all. And whatever money they do earn, they blow it all. And those guys back home aren't all so stupid. They (and the girl's family) know exactly what she was doing in Germany, Austria, Switzerland, and Spain. The practice is all too commonplace in Romania for people not to know. People have written that it's even being discussed in the schools. When I was in school, prostitution and pimping were not discussed as career options, good or bad haha!

Enjoyed recent Nude Day at Globe, CH. Apart from Bernds, rarely see full nudity at FKK clubs.

Experienced posters please update me on clubs that feature full nudity in the meeting area.

Thank you,

Dubner.

[QUOTE=Pistons;2166644]LOL, so basically a normal lecture can pan out something like this?

Everybody listen up, we have a problem here in Romania with more and more girls moving to Germany, Austria or elsewhere in Europe to sell sex for money. Sometimes as much as 10000 euro a month. Normally loverboys without other jobs here in Romania will ask you to come with them to richer European countries and sell sex for money. So both you and some guy acting like he loves you can make money for a living. So I want to ask you to stay here in Romania instead. Work in a store at a shopping mall, or as a hairdresser and make 600 euro a month instead.[/QUOTE]You inform the possible earning, they be jumping on pimp to pimp them to german FKK where they can earn 10000 euro LOL.

Well reality is that only few of them actually make good money in FKK.

But for sure these girls gave us good memory in exchange for reasonable amount of money we paid.

They don't seem to know what is a condom in far deep Romania, then guy run away when the girl is pregnant, then the girl let her child to her mum, and go to work to be fucked for money, to food her child who doesn't see mother when a baby.

Romanian girls don't find FKK address by themselves, from their far deep Romania.

[QUOTE=UltraHappy;2166619]Interestingly, all the Romanian girls are constantly warned in school about pimps and not being tricked into sex trafficking by a loverboy. In fact, they are warned so much that the Romanian school system is in effect "advertising" for this profession as an alternative career choice.[/QUOTE]Fast quick cash in Germany sound good for these girls, sound very good for us monger too. And right, they are informing girls about alternate, but ultimate career choice for few years during their youth. Some do it for family, some do it for pimp or loverboys, some do it for their seed money they need for their venture business dream or seed money for university.

I know few working girls I had on facebook (they kicked me out for no reason after while LOL) that I met at FKK went back to Romania and by looking at the pictures and profile they do attend university there, so sometimes when they say student or want to go to university, they are telling the truth.

Do you mongers outside of the EUR zone, always exchange your currencies immediately before your trip? Based on the high-low currency swings between USD and EUR over the last year, 1000 USD would have yielded the American monger anywhere between 770-940 EUR (according to Google rates).

Has anybody used Transferwise to convert and hold their currencies? They charge nothing for adding money to your Transferwise balance. And they convert between currencies at near market exchange rates (what appears on Google). For example, 1000 USD would have bought you 940 EUR on April 14,2017. If exchanged back to USD on Feb 1, 2018 at 1.25, you would have ended up with 1175 USD. The downside is Transferwise charges a 2% fee when you withdraw over a certain amount and 0.35-1 percent for each conversion. So you'd probably end up with 1140USD. Still a 14% profit.

Are other options better? One could always go with domestic bank account that will let you hold multiple currencies. Or attempt to open a bank account in a second country. [URL]https://www.telegraph.co.uk/personal-banking/current-accounts/worried-pound-best-ways-euros-dollars/[/URL].

[QUOTE=McAdonis;2166843]Do you mongers outside of the EUR zone, always exchange your currencies immediately before your trip? Based on the high-low currency swings between USD and EUR over the last year, 1000 USD would have yielded the American monger anywhere between 770-940 EUR (according to Google rates).

Has anybody used Transferwise to convert and hold their currencies? They charge nothing for adding money to your Transferwise balance. And they convert between currencies at near market exchange rates (what appears on Google). For example, 1000 USD would have bought you 940 EUR on April 14,2017. If exchanged back to USD on Feb 1, 2018 at 1.25, you would have ended up with 1175 USD. The downside is Transferwise charges a 2% fee when you withdraw over a certain amount and 0.35-1 percent for each conversion. So you'd probably end up with 1140USD. Still a 14% profit.

Are other options better? One could always go with domestic bank account that will let you hold multiple currencies. Or attempt to open a bank account in a second country. [URL]https://www.telegraph.co.uk/personal-banking/current-accounts/worried-pound-best-ways-euros-dollars/[/URL].[/QUOTE]Good questions, I am wondering some of the same. Today 1 Euro will cost me $1. 2963 thru Wells Fargo. No fees on top of the that but the buy / sell spread is pretty wide. For the difference of a few pennies I accept the fact I may be paying more than if went another route but I land ready to pound the pavement and can get off the plane, get on the train and check in to my hotel and go to a club. No stops, banks, kiosks, risk of my ATM card not working. I pay a few extra cents for that I am sure per dollar converted. Upon return I always bring 500-1500 Euros home so I have a head start on the next trip and also never exchange them back to dollars even though the bank teller offers such I tell her I am not an idiot. They already screwed me on the buy side and they want to screw you on the backside as well and buy them back. I hold them and spend them. I am one of the few if any who requests more than 100e in 20 notes but they do not know why I ask for so many hundreds of Euros in 20 bills :D

I have asked my banker if setting up an account with a German Bank (if allowed to do so as a non E. U. Citizen) and making a nice sized deposit if there is a way to convert for cheaper if you hold a minimum balance or for that matter a Spanish bank as Euros used all over. With plans to stay extended times there in the future ideally getting my Euros for cheapest is ideal.

So I join you in your curiosity of the best options. Thanks for posting this topic as I wonder much the same.

[QUOTE=KosherKowboy;2166854]
I have asked my banker if setting up an account with a German Bank (if allowed to do so as a non E. U. Citizen) and making a nice sized deposit if there is a way to convert for cheaper if you hold a minimum balance or for that matter a Spanish bank as Euros used all over. With plans to stay extended times there in the future ideally getting my Euros for cheapest is ideal.
[/QUOTE]Late-2016, early-2017, while not a historic low, was the most favorable for Americans over the previous 13 years. So if you had implemented your "nice sized deposit" plan at that time, you could use that nest egg for your mongering activities, for the foreseeable future. [URL]http://www.macrotrends.net/2548/euro-dollar-exchange-rate-historical-chart[/URL].

My understanding is Transferwise is a peer-to-peer service. So if you are looking to convert USD to EUR they match you up with people willing to convert in opposite direction. This allows them to give the absolute best exchange rate. They take a percentage for providing the technology to bring the two parties together. Transferwise is backed by Richard Branson. Some are anticipating a 2018 IPO. Transferwise's marketing term "borderless account" is pure genius. Maybe these upstarts will make traditional banks and exchange services more competitive.

[URL]https://transferwise.com/gb/borderless/pricing[/URL]

At citibank you can open a priority account with high minimum balance, they will waive any fee and just use the spot exchange rate for currency exchange. You can draw euro from ATM in europe with only handling fee (about 4-5 euro per draw). Citibank's priority account's minimum balance is $50,000 including all the citibank accounts and citibank brokerage account balance. For UK mongers Citibank has a good-size branch in UK and I think they should have the same priority account program.

https://online.citi.com/US/JRS/pands/detail.do?ID=CitiPriorityCompare&JFP_TOKEN=76GZYZ2N

[QUOTE=Dubner32;2166706]Enjoyed recent Nude Day at Globe, CH. Apart from Bernds, rarely see full nudity at FKK clubs.

Experienced posters please update me on clubs that feature full nudity in the meeting area.

Thank you,

Dubner.[/QUOTE]All clubs in Hessen are FKK clubs. That means they have one day with lingerie, all other days are fully nude. With various interpretations of fully nude. World and Mainhattan still are very strict about being nude, Oase, Palace and Sharks are less strict, girls might wear some pieces of clothing.

Most clubs in NRW are sauna clubs. That means girls are not nude.

Charles Schwabb Investor Checking Account. Open one investment account and opt in for the investor checking account. No account maintenance fees or minimums that I know of, I only have a few thousand in it so there can't be much of a minimum if any. I get market rates and all ATM fees refunded / waived.

[QUOTE=KosherKowboy;2166854]Good questions, I am wondering some of the same. Today 1 Euro will cost me $1. 2963 thru Wells Fargo. No fees on top of the that but the buy / sell spread is pretty wide. For the difference of a few pennies I accept the fact I may be paying more than if went another route but I land ready to pound the pavement and can get off the plane, get on the train and check in to my hotel and go to a club. No stops, banks, kiosks, risk of my ATM card not working. I pay a few extra cents for that I am sure per dollar converted. Upon return I always bring 500-1500 Euros home so I have a head start on the next trip and also never exchange them back to dollars even though the bank teller offers such I tell her I am not an idiot. They already screwed me on the buy side and they want to screw you on the backside as well and buy them back. I hold them and spend them. I am one of the few if any who requests more than 100e in 20 notes but they do not know why I ask for so many hundreds of Euros in 20 bills :D

I have asked my banker if setting up an account with a German Bank (if allowed to do so as a non E. U. Citizen) and making a nice sized deposit if there is a way to convert for cheaper if you hold a minimum balance or for that matter a Spanish bank as Euros used all over. With plans to stay extended times there in the future ideally getting my Euros for cheapest is ideal.

So I join you in your curiosity of the best options. Thanks for posting this topic as I wonder much the same.[/QUOTE]Be aware that there are extra tax filing requirements on foreign banks for US citizens / residents. Additionally, international transfers over a certain amount, I believe $10,000 will trigger unwanted attention.

[QUOTE=Bfsie;2166867]At citibank you can open a priority account with high minimum balance, they will waive any fee and just use the spot exchange rate for currency exchange.

https://online.citi.com/US/JRS/pands/detail.do?ID=CitiPriorityCompare&JFP_TOKEN=76GZYZ2N[/QUOTE]Does this Citibank priority account allow you to hold dollars, euros, sterling, baht, reai in five different pots? Waiving the conversion fees and using spot exchange rate sounds great, but how do they protect against the weak dollar?

The idea is to be able to buy a lot of currency when it is on sale and stockpile it. Hypothetically, lets say KK, back in the summer of 2002 had converted $1M to 1M EUR and deposited it in a German bank account. KK plans to visit the FKK with two American friends. Let's say all three American mongers want to withdraw 400 EUR and the current day's EUR to USD rate is 1.25:

Friend #1 has a priority Citibank account so his withdrawal of 400 EUR would cost him 500 USD, conversion fee waived, plus ATM withdrawal fee.

Friend #2 has a normal Citibank account, so he gets 1.27 instead of 1.25, so his withdrawal of 400 EUR would cost him 508 USD, plus conversion fee, plus ATM withdrawal fee.

KK has a German debit card for his German bank account. His withdrawal of 400 EUR costs him 400 USD, because his money was converted back in 2002. Essentially, if the exchange rate goes from 1.25 to 1.50, it does not affect KK at the ATM. The dollar would have to gain strength to a level that has not been seen in the last 16 years. Only at that point, would KK stop withdrawing from his German bank account, and start converting USD to EUR.

[QUOTE=SamsonMonger;2166877]Charles Schwabb Investor Checking Account. Open one investment account and opt in for the investor checking account. No account maintenance fees or minimums that I know of, I only have a few thousand in it so there can't be much of a minimum if any. I get market rates and all ATM fees refunded / waived.[/QUOTE]For US mongers, Schwab bank is the way to go. No fee and you get good rate. You can also call them to increase the daily ATM limit from $500 to whichever amount you want. I used to carry a lot of Euro until I opened up Schwab acct. It's so convenience to just go to ATM and withdraw a large sum of Euro at once. Some ATM will not let you take so much out at once though. I find Deutsche bank always give me the amount I requested (eventhough I don't want to support them with all this story about their money laundering).

I have been rewarding Schwab by moving my Roth IRA to them. Plus their investing acct has some low expense fee comparing to Vanguard, Fidelity, T Rowe, etc.

[URL]https://www.schwab.com/public/schwab/banking_lending/checking_account[/URL]

[QUOTE=McAdonis;2166915]
The idea is to be able to buy a lot of currency when it is on sale and stockpile it. Hypothetically, lets say KK, back in the summer of 2002 had converted $1M to 1M EUR and deposited it in a German bank account. KK plans to visit the FKK with two American friends. Let's say all three American mongers want to withdraw 400 EUR and the current day's EUR to USD rate is 1.25:

Friend #1 has a priority Citibank account so his withdrawal of 400 EUR would cost him 500 USD, conversion fee waived, plus ATM withdrawal fee.

Friend #2 has a normal Citibank account, so he gets 1.27 instead of 1.25, so his withdrawal of 400 EUR would cost him 508 USD, plus conversion fee, plus ATM withdrawal fee.

KK has a German debit card for his German bank account. His withdrawal of 400 EUR costs him 400 USD, because his money was converted back in 2002. Essentially, if the exchange rate goes from 1.25 to 1.50, it does not affect KK at the ATM. The dollar would have to gain strength to a level that has not been seen in the last 16 years. Only at that point, would KK stop withdrawing from his German bank account, and start converting USD to EUR.[/QUOTE]The fundamental question is: Can anyone predict exchange rate (euro vs us dollar in this case) 10 years (or even 1 year) from now? The answer is NO.

Your premise in your post is that you knew in 2002 that EUR to USD rate (1. 25) now would be higher than the rate (1. 00) in 2002, but what if current EUR to USD rate now were 0. 50 (instead of 1. 25), then 400 euro would cost KK US $400, but would only cost his friend #1 and #2 200 USD and a little more than 200 USD respectively.

[QUOTE=McAdonis;2166915]Does this Citibank priority account allow you to hold dollars, euros, sterling, baht, reai in five different pots? [/QUOTE]No.

[QUOTE=McAdonis;2166915] Waiving the conversion fees and using spot exchange rate sounds great, but how do they protect against the weak dollar?

[/QUOTE]There is no way you can protect against weak dollar by using a bank account in USD, The only way to preserve current euro vs usd exchange rate is to use EUR to USD currency futures on the commodity markets or EUR to USD derivatives, if that is the case you also limit your potential of financial gain at the same time if USD becomes stronger.

If I knew how stocks and currencies would pan out ahead of time I would be richer than Bezos by now. Just saying. LOL!

[QUOTE=Bfsie;2166948]The fundamental question is: Can anyone predict exchange rate (euro vs us dollar in this case) 10 years (or even 1 year) from now? The answer is NO.

Your premise in your post is that you knew in 2002 that EUR to USD rate (1. 25) now would be higher than the rate (1. 00) in 2002, but what if current EUR to USD rate now were 0. 50 (instead of 1. 25), then 400 euro would cost KK US $400, but would only cost his friend #1 and #2 200 USD and a little more than 200 USD respectively.

No.

There is no way you can protect against weak dollar by using a bank account in USD or any other financial instrument in USD, The only way to preserve current euro vs usd exchange rate is to use EUR to USD currency futures on the commodity markets or EUR to USD derivatives, if that is the case you also limit your potential of financial gain at the same time if USD becomes stronger.[/QUOTE]Point is to have assets in multiple currencies and withdraw the one giving the beneficial exchange rate when you need it.

[QUOTE=BadinSweet;2166925]For US mongers, Schwab bank is the way to go.
I have been rewarding Schwab by moving my Roth IRA to them. Plus their investing acct has some low expense fee comparing to Vanguard, Fidelity, T Rowe, etc.
[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=SamsonMonger;2166877]Charles Schwabb Investor Checking Account. Open one investment account and opt in for the investor checking account. No account maintenance fees or minimums that I know of, I only have a few thousand in it so there can't be much of a minimum if any. I get market rates and all ATM fees refunded / waived.[/QUOTE]Looks like the same / similar can be done thru Wells Fargo Advisers as well. I found out if you have a WFA Command account (s) you can do what Samson does with Schwabb banking and simply withdraw funds at market with your ATM card and get your fees waived in most cases and if not you pay as what Bfsie said a small 5 Euro or so fee. If you have an IRA held by them as Badinsweet does with Schwabb that balance even if held in equities or bonds and not cash will suffice.

I am told my cheapest way to get Euros is to use my WFA Debit card in an ATM and that opening a foreign bank account would not do me any good, taxes would come in to play on both sides of the ocean as Chongmal suggested.

[QUOTE=Bfsie;2166948]
There is no way you can protect against weak dollar by using a bank account in USD or any other financial instrument in USD, The only way to preserve current euro vs usd exchange rate is to use EUR to USD currency futures on the commodity markets or EUR to USD derivatives, if that is the case you also limit your potential of financial gain at the same time if USD becomes stronger.[/QUOTE]Very true and a risky play. You can kill or get killed trading futures outright. Or you can put on a position in the Euro-options than hedge yourself with futures and limit your exposure locking in a spread you hope is a winner. You will not make as much if you are right but you will not lose as much if wrong. I threw the towel in on futures when open outcry was replaced by computers. It was hard enough to trade against the size of the Bank orders or massive agricultural / food conglomerates if you were on the opposite side of it when the orders came in. Way too risky IMO.

I would rather be safe and buy 40 e Gyspy Calls and of course liquefy my asset quickly.

But you are absolutely right, no protecting against the weak dollar just having bank accounts.

Happy Euro hunting all.

Rogue Nation,

Thank you for the update.

Dubner.

[QUOTE=Bfsie;2166948]The fundamental question is: Can anyone predict exchange rate (euro vs us dollar in this case) 10 years (or even 1 year) from now? The answer is NO.
[/QUOTE]I agree And like Pistons said, I would be rich as Jeff Bezos if I could predict currency swings. Re-reading my posts, I may have inadvertently pushed the "profit" angle too much.

[QUOTE=Bfsie;2166948]
Your premise in your post is that you knew in 2002 that EUR to USD rate (1. 25) now would be higher than the rate (1. 00) in 2002, but what if current EUR to USD rate now were 0. 50 (instead of 1. 25), then 400 euro would cost KK US $400, but would only cost his friend #1 and #2 200 USD and a little more than 200 USD respectively.
[/QUOTE]Having the foresight to convert at 1.00 back in 2002 would have been incredible. But the point is, like Samson Monger says, is to have two pools to tap into for mongering.

So let's change the scenario to something more realistic: KK converted his USD to EUR at 1.20. When the rate is above 1.20, he uses his German debit card to withdraw EUR. When the rate is below 1.20, he uses his American debit card to withdraw EUR. This assumes three things (a) KK doesn't have an urgent need to touch his EUR (b) KK has got reserves of USD in his bank account back home and (c) the EUR will at some point rebound above 1.20 again. Are those not safe assumptions to make?

I wouldn't advocate for an American monger to convert a huge percentage of the cash in his portfolio to EUR. Ideally, mongers are practicing some sound financial discipline and not blowing all their disposable income on the hobby. Let's say KK earmarks 10 percent of his after-tax income to mongering. Multiply that by 5, and that's what I would convert to EUR. I am thinking that could last him 8 years or more, because like I said he would only be withdrawing EUR when exchange rates are higher than 1.20.

Just explain to me where the fault in my logic is. Not trying to come off like I know it all. Maximizing purchasing power of my mongering money is way more important!

[QUOTE=Bfsie;2166948]
There is no way you can protect against weak dollar by using a bank account in USD, The only way to preserve current euro vs usd exchange rate is to use EUR to USD currency futures on the commodity markets or EUR to USD derivatives, if that is the case you also limit your potential of financial gain at the same time if USD becomes stronger.[/QUOTE]My knowledge is admittedly limited here. My understanding is that futures can be used for two purposes: (1) hedging risk between commercial buyer and seller or (2) maximizing profit by speculating direction of price movements which is risky. Don't both hinge on specific dates in the future? With my cash in multiple currencies idea, the time horizon would be indefinite, because you are only playing with money that you don't have an immediate need for.

[QUOTE=KosherKowboy;2166987]
I am told my cheapest way to get Euros is to use my WFA Debit card in an ATM and that opening a foreign bank account would not do me any good, taxes would come in to play on both sides of the ocean as Chongmal suggested.
[/QUOTE]Multi-currency accounts: [URL]https://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/personalfinance/expat-money/8497758/Plagued-by-forex-fluctuations-Multi-currency-accounts-could-be-the-answer.html[/URL].

Does your adviser know about Tradewise? It has only been around since 2010. Would be curious to hear his feedback.

[QUOTE=Chongmal;2166893]Be aware that there are extra tax filing requirements on foreign banks for US citizens / residents. Additionally, international transfers over a certain amount, I believe $10,000 will trigger unwanted attention.[/QUOTE]The USA State Department estimated that 8. 7 million Americans lived abroad in 2015 and many millions more had foreign accounts, yet less than 1 million taxpayers filed FBARs to declare these assets. [URL]https://www.investopedia.com/articles/personal-finance/102915/tax-implications-opening-foreign-bank-account.asp[/URL].

[QUOTE=McAdonis;2167005] Let's say KK earmarks 10 percent of his after-tax income to mongering. Multiply that by 5, and that's what I would convert to EUR. I am thinking that could last him 8 years or more, because like I said he would only be withdrawing EUR when exchange rates are higher than 1.20.

Just explain to me where the fault in my logic is. Not trying to come off like I know it all. Maximizing purchasing power of my mongering money is way more important!

My knowledge is admittedly limited here. My understanding is that futures can be used for two purposes: (1) hedging risk between commercial buyer and seller or (2) maximizing profit by speculating direction of price movements which is risky. Don't both hinge on specific dates in the future? With my cash in multiple currencies idea, the time horizon would be indefinite, because you are only playing with money that you don't have an immediate need for.[/QUOTE]I like your numbers and how you look after my finances so well. 8 years of mongering sounds like a wonderful return on my meager income. I would like to fire my current adviser and hire you. He did not know about tradewise or it never came up but I will seek his advise. What are your rates and in what currency would I have to pay :D

Futures expire unlike an equity and expire roughly every other month. This is what creates much of the risk versus stocks. You own a stock it goes red you can hold it as long as you like. If you need the money from that stock you might have to jump on the sword and take the loss but you do not have to. With futures you face expiration so at some point you must get out even if it means losing. Most futures ' traders' will be doing (2) above and like in the trading pits of the NYSE trying to buy and sell all day long making a tick here and there hopping in and out of the market non stop. Futures traders try not to go home with a position given the risk of where the next day opening is. The traders are trying to jump ahead of the large paper that comes in from (1) the hedgers and big time player speculators often large companies like Tyson or Sysco for example in the agriculturals and in the Eurodollar / S&P / DOW futures as well as currencies the banks are often large clients.

The nice things about futures is you can enter from the short side, still does you no good if the market goes up as you have to get out of a loser but you can play either card to enter any trade. Stocks you have to get long before you can go short. I would look at stocks as an investment for appreciation and income especially if you do not need the cash today, futures are simply a gamble. You can not hold. If you need the cash you have to take a loss. Most futures expire every other month so if you buy today the June Live Cattle Contract and the price goes down you have to be out by expiration date no matter what and June is around the corner but if you buy the December contract today you have much longer to get out however liquidity in back months is much less than front months so they carry a risk as well as the spread can be bigger so if you need to get out you really might be taking it up the rear end as trading volume in the front months dwarf the backs.

Very risky game. Good luck if you decide to play.

:D

[QUOTE=McAdonis;2166843]Do you mongers outside of the EUR zone, always exchange your currencies immediately before your trip? Based on the high-low currency swings between USD and EUR over the last year, 1000 USD would have yielded the American monger anywhere between 770-940 EUR (according to Google rates).

Has anybody used Transferwise to convert and hold their currencies? They charge nothing for adding money to your Transferwise balance. And they convert between currencies at near market exchange rates (what appears on Google). For example, 1000 USD would have bought you 940 EUR on April 14,2017. If exchanged back to USD on Feb 1, 2018 at 1.25, you would have ended up with 1175 USD. The downside is Transferwise charges a 2% fee when you withdraw over a certain amount and 0.35-1 percent for each conversion. So you'd probably end up with 1140USD. Still a 14% profit.

Are other options better? One could always go with domestic bank account that will let you hold multiple currencies. Or attempt to open a bank account in a second country. [URL]https://www.telegraph.co.uk/personal-banking/current-accounts/worried-pound-best-ways-euros-dollars/[/URL].[/QUOTE]I just use a debit card and draw out want I need as I need it. I use two accounts (credit union and Charles Schwab). Neither charge ATM or currency conversion fees, I get the end of day market rate with no commission for any funds withdrawn. Since I get just what I need I never have a large sum to convert back at the end of the trip (I take whatever is left in my wallet home and use it on the next trip.) I've been doing this for about 5 years and haven't had any significant problems (a ATM declined my Credit Union debit card once, I went to the bank across the street and used it there.) (My credit card, with Barclays, doesn't charge any fees either.) The Schwab conversion is always the published the end of day rate and the credit union is within 1 or 2 cents.

The conversion fees at the exchange businesses are normally very steep, I would avoid using them if possible.

Using the debit cards has simplified my life. I used to carry travelers checks and hunted down banks that would convert (not all banks will convert dollars to euros and NO bank in my local area will do a conversion (one of the reasons I have a Schwab account)).

Another option, don't know how convenient it would be, if the payee accepts PayPal, PayPal will convert from your dollars account to the payee euro account for about 1%. A store where I was shopping accepted PayPal and I paid for a book using it.

[QUOTE=McAdonis;2167005]

So let's change the scenario to something more realistic: KK converted his USD to EUR at 1.20. When the rate is above 1.20, he uses his German debit card to withdraw EUR. When the rate is below 1.20, he uses his American debit card to withdraw EUR. This assumes three things (a) KK doesn't have an urgent need to touch his EUR (b) KK has got reserves of USD in his bank account back home and (c) the EUR will at some point rebound above 1.20 again. Are those not safe assumptions to make?

[/QUOTE]In theory, you are right. Since you said "more realistic" in your post, a couple of points need to be considered. First, the entry point as USD to EUR at 1. 20 in your post is difficult to pick. For example, you pick at 1. 20 as the entry point, maybe USD to EUR will stay below 1. 20 for long time, even more than a decade, and your euro in a European bank will be stuck there. Second, from my knowledge, an American without EU residence permit can't open a bank account in any bank in EU because of the regulations.

[QUOTE=McAdonis;2167005]

My knowledge is admittedly limited here. My understanding is that futures can be used for two purposes: (1) hedging risk between commercial buyer and seller or (2) maximizing profit by speculating direction of price movements which is risky. Don't both hinge on specific dates in the future? With my cash in multiple currencies idea, the time horizon would be indefinite, because you are only playing with money that you don't have an immediate need for.[/QUOTE]KK explained very well. I would say it is not worth to use currency futures for hedging the money for mongering, which is too small compared to the amount in futures contracts. Another practical idea is, if the American monger is relatively rich, he can buy a lot of american blue-chip stocks or S&P index stock to hedge against weak USD because american blue-chip stocks usually have big percentage of their revenues coming from Europe, If USD is weak against Euro, they will have (or show) more european revenues and profits in USD and more european revenues and profits in USD will factor in their stock prices, consequently their stock prices will rise because of that.

[QUOTE=McAdonis;2167005]So let's change the scenario to something more realistic: KK converted his USD to EUR at 1.20. When the rate is above 1.20, he uses his German debit card to withdraw EUR. When the rate is below 1.20, he uses his American debit card to withdraw EUR. This assumes three things (a) KK doesn't have an urgent need to touch his EUR (b) KK has got reserves of USD in his bank account back home and (c) the EUR will at some point rebound above 1.20 again. Are those not safe assumptions to make?[/QUOTE]For point (c) it depends on your definition of safe. The 10 year rate history charts show that if you buy at the wrong time a rebound level assumption won't hold. Whatever strategy you use you can't avoid taking a long or short position (wager) on the USD.

I have explored Frankfurt RLD. Not bad. A short walk from the Hauptbanhof. Yes, some stair climbing, but a choice of young 20's from Spain, Poland, Italy, Hungary and Germany. Not that many Romianians. The places are clean and perfectly safe. It does feel sleazy, and the stairs and hallways are the walk of shame of sorts. The clubs have a thin veneer of more than pure sex seeking.

The Romanians are so concentrated in the FKK clubs that I am starting to wonder if they are somehow part of an organised scheme. I don't think I met a single non-Romanian at the several clubs I visted in different cities and countries. Many girls lie about being Romanian or claim to be Moldvian. So the clubs are filled with cigarette smoke (or still smokey even with a leaky smoking room), noisy, and the girls sharky and wanting to seal the deal in the least amount of time and upsell. The clubs make out like they are exclusive, but at the core dress up a RLD with some spas and so-so food (though the Wellkum club is excellent, but has the same passive smoking thing). You need to wash your hair at the end because you and your gown smell of cigarette smoke. Almost all offer bare back blow job and maybe kissing for extra. The reality is that kissing a girl who has had 10 cocks explode in her mouth that night is not the most appetising of experiences. The FKK girls are mostly scheming and all business. Oase is full of hookahs glowing as people puff away.

That is an interesting side note: smoking is strongly correlated with addictive behaviour and brain reward centres. You have to wonder about us and the girls and what percentage are smokers.

In summary: FKK's are noisy, smokey and have about 95% up-selling Romainians cruising like sharks. I am not saying all Romanians are like that, just the ones that seems to be mass imported by some hidden scheme that places them in the FKKS. They have pools and spas and a buffet. At the end though, they are smoke filled noisy brothels. Once you factor in sunk cost entrance fees, up-selling costs to get decent service, lung damage from 7 or more hours of breathing in smoke, hearing damage from noise, and EUR50-120 for each pop (in Romanian definition, bored looking girls lying there like a starfish, no kissing, short machine gun blowjob and then insisting you come as fast as you can), it starts to feel like a sausage factory (literally as well as figuratively). They know most guys will have 2. 6 pops. Most girls screw about 7 -10 men on a shift.

Many of you may not realise this, but the girls use lidocaine / xylocaine / lignocaine to numb their pussies and some use cervical pads as well. They are very much thrashed mattresses and have had hundreds or thousands of cocks in their mouths, pussies or ass. They are in the acting business. They need to smile and act sexy to us, downplay the business side and act as if they like us. I am not trying to be negative here, just explaining the economics and forces behind their constant upselling. One very pretty gypsy girl I had a pussy that no longer closed. It had a permanent black hole from so much cock. Pretty yes, but a loose pussy and lost interest in sex a long time ago after she reached the thousands. There is a limit of cock. Most girls can only manage a maximum of 40 cocks a week before they feel sore, depending on size and how long hammered for. Call this term average maximum cock per week (AMC). Also, the FKK clubs are very controlling, they make the girls parade naked and are forced to be on display, which is similar to shopping malls that force shops to open.

Passenger revenue per mile (in this case, punter revenue per pussy): the maximum ratio is about 8 cocks a day (they take off two days a week, so 40 ACM divided by 5). If we take a median gross of EUR600 per girl of pussy sold per shift, the clubs get a third. The more men the girls service the lower their FKK charge and net profit, but this is constrained by AMC. A woman can only handle so much throbbing cock. This is why upselling is so common. It is the revenue optimisation given the weekly AMC.

So they 60 to get in, about EUR156 for the girls paid by the punter, the girls who pay the FKK's about EUR120 to get in (that may include a room for them to sleep in) and therefore a FKK tax of about 10 to euros per customer. The men are out for about EUR220 per shift, the girls (depending on upselling) gross between 350 to 700 (230 to 580 net per shift). The FKK's get roughly EUR 200 for every person you see in the club. If we take a median gross of EUR600 per girl of pussy sold per shift, the clubs get a third.

The RLDs allow the girls more freedom of when they want to work, some share a room (thus lowering the overhead), they do not have to parade around etc. That is why the RLDs are cheaper, Frankfurt being an extreme case. Girls sharing a room break even after just two customers. Compared to short time in say Bangkok of THB 1000 excluding bar fines, (rate: 25.9758 per Euro), Frankfurt competes at THB 1,154.92, making Europe a good deal.

So all in all, The RLDs are excellent value, comparatively smoke free, clean and more choice. No buffet but you can use nearby restaurants and gyms with the savings.

[QUOTE=PahllusMaximus;2167178]I have explored Frankfurt RLD. Not bad.[/QUOTE]We know. You already told us. No need to post the same lengthy message twice in two different part of the board. That's being doubly negative LOL!

[QUOTE=PahllusMaximus;2167178]I have explored Frankfurt RLD. Not bad. A short walk from the Hauptbanhof. Yes, some stair climbing, but a choice of young 20's from Spain, Poland, Italy, Hungary and Germany. Not that many Romianians. The places are clean and perfectly safe. It does feel sleazy, and the stairs and hallways are the walk of shame of sorts. The clubs have a thin veneer of more than pure sex seeking.

The Romanians are so concentrated in the FKK clubs that I am starting to wonder if they are somehow part of an organised scheme. I don't think I met a single non-Romanian at the several clubs I visted in different cities and countries. Many girls lie about being Romanian or claim to be Moldvian. So the clubs are filled with cigarette smoke (or still smokey even with a leaky smoking room), noisy, and the girls sharky and wanting to seal the deal in the least amount of time and upsell. The clubs make out like they are exclusive, but at the core dress up a RLD with some spas and so-so food (though the Wellkum club is excellent, but has the same passive smoking thing). You need to wash your hair at the end because you and your gown smell of cigarette smoke. Almost all offer bare back blow job and maybe kissing for extra. The reality is that kissing a girl who has had 10 cocks explode in her mouth that night is not the most appetising of experiences. The FKK girls are mostly scheming and all business. Oase is full of hookahs glowing as people puff away..[/QUOTE]RLD as in that pink light big building near HBF like 10 min walk?

I never walked in there, but there are young stunners? Showers at least? And they do BBBJ and how much is session?

There's minimum 50% Romanians in the RLD. Houses T32, T36, T26, T34, E44 are full of them. To get the same service as in a FKK you often have to invest the same money per 30 min. Upselling and rip off are more prevalent than at most FKK, hygiene is an issue with many girls. They pay about 150€ rent / day for heir room. So pressure for them to make money is the same as for any other WG.

[QUOTE=Bfsie;2167157]Another practical idea is, if the American monger is relatively rich, he can buy a lot of american blue-chip stocks or S&P index stock to hedge against weak USD because american blue-chip stocks usually have big percentage of their revenues coming from Europe, If USD is weak against Euro, they will have (or show) more european revenues and profits in USD and more european revenues and profits in USD will factor in their stock prices, consequently their stock prices will rise because of that.[/QUOTE]S&P index nose-dived in 2008, losing close to half its value. Thats around the time the EUR / USD exchange was least favorable to Americans hitting as high as 1.59.

Maybe I am looking at it wrong too. My pool of money for investments / saving is segregated from the pool of money I allocate for mongering. So any profits via capital gains or dividends stays within that investment / savings pool. I don't funnel that money over to mongering pool, which is essentially liquid and ready to be used.

[QUOTE=McAdonis;2167221]My pool of money for investments / savings is segregated from the pool of money I allocate for mongering. So any profits via capital gains or dividends stays within that investment / savings pool. I don't funnel that money over to the mongering pool, which is essentially liquid and ready to be used.[/QUOTE]That's how I prefer to do it too. The mongering fund is liquid cash remaining after I've gone and done the other things I need to do financially. I make sure my bills are paid and my investments made before I get laid (with liquid cash remaining and separate from investments & savings)! Somebody here once asked (I remember who actually) how much money should be spent on mongering. Now what kind of question is that? That's so subjective! The general rules I can say are these. Are all of your bills being paid, and being paid on time? And are you consistently saving enough money each month to fund your future, such as retirement? If so, then once you do those two things financially, what you have left over you can use to monger. Of course, you need to ask a few more questions if you have other considerations such as having to save for a child's education and so on. And the more of those other considerations to account for, probably the less you can afford to be spending that money on mongering.

Generally your assets and liabilities should match in terms of duration, risk, and other characteristics. If you think mongering expense is going to be a large part of your future outlay, then perhaps it makes sense to have assets benefiting from Euro appreciation in your portfolio. For individual investors, currency hedging is not a great idea. There are are some international bond ETFs like IGOV and BWX. These are not pure plays on Euro, as they include EM bonds as well, but Europe still dominates I think in that mix. There is still interest rate risk etc, but at least they benefit from local currency appreciation.

Also, you could buy stocks of European companies that are predominantly domestic oriented. Exporters would not be in this category, but regional banks, utilities, telcos, etc could comprise this bucket. Obviously, currency is only a small aspect when it comes to stocks; price decline in local currency might offset whatever you gain from the currency side. The bond ETFs are a safer and easier bet.

Unlike the super mongers here I am at best a part time amateur, so for me mongering expense is a very tiny fraction of my total expenses and I have never done this matching of investments to mongering budgets. I am pretty aggressive in my investments and just go for the maximum return in terms of my home country currency and let the chips fall where they may.

[QUOTE=McAdonis;2167221]Maybe I am looking at it wrong too. My pool of money for investments / saving is segregated from the pool of money I allocate for mongering. So any profits via capital gains or dividends stays within that investment / savings pool. I don't funnel that money over to mongering pool, which is essentially liquid and ready to be used.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=Bfsie;2167157] Another practical idea is, if the American monger is relatively rich, he can buy a lot of american blue-chip stocks or S&P index stock to hedge against weak USD because american blue-chip stocks usually have big percentage of their revenues coming from Europe, If USD is weak against Euro, they will have (or show) more european revenues and profits in USD and more european revenues and profits in USD will factor in their stock prices, consequently their stock prices will rise because of that.[/QUOTE]I do not think you are looking at it wrong at all. There is no universal right or wrong here. From your posts I gather you have a portfolio and you are trying to wisely keep it at its highest level yet also have access to cash from work or wherever to play with without using profits to fund play. Reinvestment of profits is great, it will allow you to have more quality time with beautiful Gyspies over time, they will greatly appreciate how you are investing in their futures!

Bfsie presents an accurate investment strategy that would certainly have merit and be cherished by many portfolio managers more so those recommending a very ' aggressive / growth' strategy. One could make a killing on the power play presented if on the right side of the Euro movement. However, that strategy could also backfire. High returns, high risk. Nothing wrong with that, each investor decides on their strategy and risk they want to take on. This strategy if correct would work for the investor who would make lots of equity and as the adviser Bfsie would also make more money as the higher balance of the portfolio would yield him more of a fee when he takes out his fees each quarter as a percentage of the portfolio balance. Bfsie could than also simply acting as an adviser have more quality time with beautiful Gypsies. Now if the Euro moves the wrong way Bfsie might find himself with a white towel wrapped around his waste eating hot dog soup talking to an American from Texas on a red couch at Day Care.

I am more in the though of ' conservative / growth' and have done very similar to what Bfsie suggests but went the route of mutual funds whose performance over periods of time either matched or outperformed the DOW / S&P. Many of these funds do hold blue chips but some also invest directly in foreign stocks many ironically in Germany others in emerging markets in Asia and the Americas. Less upside than the all blue chip presented by Bfsie but also less downside. However, you could still participate in ' European profits' as your funds would go up.

I think in a nustshell it all comes down to asset diversification based on our individual risk we want to take on. IMO ' How to get Euros the cheapest' will bring in to play where you are pulling the dollars from to buy the Euros. For one guy the answer may be different than the next. If completely diversified how a monger pulls his cash to buy play money for Gyspies may vary year to year as well. In bull markets can skim profits from equity accounts and fly to Germany with crisp 100 and 50 notes and go to Sharks and Oase and play with the classiest and most beautiful Gyspies like ' Evita and Adele' and in bear markets pull from bond accounts (as not to sell an equity while lower) and fly to Germany with 20,10 and 5 notes and go to Dietzenbach and play with ' Elena and Anna' , a far cry from the above E / A pair. All about diversification of assets and Gypsy quality. As for me I can only afford the cheaper E/A duo, I am too poor for the classy duo.

:D

Forgot to say, there are also currency ETFs. FXE is a good one for US investors wanting Euro exposure. Just plain and simple Euro exposure, tracks dollar Euro and nothing else.

For example, if you think you are going to spend $10,000 in the next year on mongering denominated in Euro, just buy $10,000 worth of FXE and if dollar loses value, then FXE should gain and you can sell as and when needed and convert to Euro.

Likewise, if dollar appreciates, FXe will decline in value so your original investment in FXE is worth less but those dollars will still purchase the desired number of euros because euro has lost value in this scenario.

There are also many ultra ETFs, such as ULE on the long side and EUO on the short side.

[QUOTE=Jnpr30;2167355]FXE is a good one for US investors wanting Euro exposure. Just plain and simple Euro exposure, tracks dollar Euro and nothing else.
[/QUOTE]True, but everyone should keep the fees in mind with this one. There's a cost associated with every buy and sell transaction plus the expense fee. Much higher expense than just putting money in a straight Vanguard mutual fund for example. Just something to carefully consider when deciding the best place to park your cash.

[QUOTE=UltraHappy;2167394]True, but everyone should keep the fees in mind with this one. There's a cost associated with every buy and sell transaction plus the expense fee. Much higher expense than just putting money in a straight Vanguard mutual fund for example. Just something to carefully consider when deciding the best place to park your cash.[/QUOTE]Does Vanguard have currency funds or ETFs? I see some international bond funds but not pure currency ETFs on their site. May be I missed them.

Vanguard has expenses in the 0. 1% to 0. 15% range and FXE has 0. 4%. Transaction is cheap these days. Schwab charges $5 these days for example.

I am not pushing any one sepcific fund or ETf; just suggesting that there are a variety of options out there. Upto each individual what to buy and how much risk is acceptable.

Anyway, there was a discussion on how to prepurchase Euros for mongers who frequently visit FKks. FXE was one idea. There are many others.

Vanguard does not have any currency funds or ETFs that I am aware of.

I used FXE through Schwab before to cover myself against increases in the Euro when the Euro was more volatile.

You're right, you have to pay a commission for FXE since it's not a Schwab fund. The commission is only $4. 95. So, if you buy in and and then at some later date you sell all shares, you're out only about $10 in commissions. Not so bad.

You're also right that the expense ratio is only 0. 4% (not so bad but everyone needs to remember that the fund loses this amount of net assets ever year).

But, looking at the spread between the ASK (116.11) and BID (120.67) for this fund, means that for someone who is "investing" $10,000 and then later cashing out said $10,000 a year later, if nothing else changes, you will lose approximately $428, which comes out to roughly 4. 3% of your investment (mostly due to the difference between the ASK and the BID, that is, $377 but also adding in the $10 in commissions and about $40 loss in performance of the fund due to the annual fee).

So, unless I'm mistaken with my math, the cost of hedging against an increase of the Euro for $10,000 is a hefty annual fee of 4. 3% or $428. In other words, in this scenario, the Euro has to rise 4. 3% within that year just to break even with the fees involved here.

When I first started using the FXE fund, I didn't appreciate how much all of these fees added up. Now, I figure I'm better off just investing in normal low cost funds.

Tell me if I've loused up the math here or if you have any better suggestions for Euro hedging.

[QUOTE=Jnpr30;2167404]Does Vanguard have currency funds or ETFs? I see some international bond funds but not pure currency ETFs on their site. May be I missed them.

Vanguard has expenses in the 0. 1% to 0. 15% range and FXE has 0. 4%. Transaction is cheap these days. Schwab charges $5 these days for example.

I am not pushing any one sepcific fund or ETf; just suggesting that there are a variety of options out there. Upto each individual what to buy and how much risk is acceptable.

Anyway, there was a discussion on how to prepurchase Euros for mongers who frequently visit FKks. FXE was one idea. There are many others.[/QUOTE]

Hi UH,

I am not sure — Am I missing the bid / ask spread being so large?

In the following factsheet, it says the spread is much smaller at 0. 01%. I saw other sites on FXE as well showing the spread being much smaller than your numbers.

[URL]https://www.xtf.com/ETF-Factsheets/FXE[/URL]

I will say however, that if the spread is indeed as large as you think, it would make FXE quite unattractive. I am skeptical of that though it is a well traded product, used by many fund managers. Generally, large bid ask spreads happen when there is not a lot of trading liquidity. I can check this on Bloomberg and let you know for sure.

I have personally never used it. As I said, I don't believe in separate buckets of money. My FKK related expenses are anyway quite small as I don't attend as much as you guys do. The only one of those currency related products I ever invested in was EUO which I went long 5 years ago or so when I was quite negative on Euro and EUO was a good vehicle to short Euro. I don't remember what the spread on EUo was, but I think it was quite small.

If you think Euro will appreciate, you can short EUO.

[QUOTE=PahllusMaximus;2167178]I have explored Frankfurt RLD. Not bad. A short walk from the Hauptbanhof. Yes, some stair climbing, but a choice of young 20's from Spain, Poland, Italy, Hungary and Germany. Not that many Romianians. [/QUOTE]Probably not likely that they are from any of those countries. Not any more likely than the stories you here from FKK girls anyway. The walk up the stairs create an interesting dilemma. On one hand, you benefit from the cardiovascular warm up. On the other hand, you develop what's called swamp ass, sweaty dampness in the intimate regions.

[QUOTE=PahllusMaximus;2167178]The Romanians are so concentrated in the FKK clubs that I am starting to wonder if they are somehow part of an organised scheme. I don't think I met a single non-Romanian at the several clubs I visted in different cities and countries. Many girls lie about being Romanian or claim to be Moldvian. So the clubs are filled with cigarette smoke (or still smokey even with a leaky smoking room), noisy, and the girls sharky and wanting to seal the deal in the least amount of time and upsell. The clubs make out like they are exclusive, but at the core dress up a RLD with some spas and so-so food (though the Wellkum club is excellent, but has the same passive smoking thing). You need to wash your hair at the end because you and your gown smell of cigarette smoke. Almost all offer bare back blow job and maybe kissing for extra. The reality is that kissing a girl who has had 10 cocks explode in her mouth that night is not the most appetising of experiences. The FKK girls are mostly scheming and all business. Oase is full of hookahs glowing as people puff away.[/QUOTE]It's practically common knowledge that there is an organized scheme ran by a collection of lover boys, pimps, and organized crime units. Oase is very Romanian heavy, but you definitely met Hungarians and Bulgarians at Wellcum.

You make it sound like building spa facilities and providing food for the entire day for hundreds of men is an easy feat, completely disregarding the organization and operational work that this involves.

As for kissing and intimacy, does it make a difference whether 10 guys exploded in a girl's mouth prior to you in an FKK versus 2-3 loads of cum in the RLD?

[QUOTE=PahllusMaximus;2167178]That is an interesting side note: smoking is strongly correlated with addictive behaviour and brain reward centres. You have to wonder about us and the girls and what percentage are smokers.[/QUOTE]The same biological reward center is involved in cumming. Then again so is winning and achievement.

[QUOTE=PahllusMaximus;2167178]In summary: FKK's are noisy, smokey and have about 95% up-selling Romainians cruising like sharks. I am not saying all Romanians are like that, just the ones that seems to be mass imported by some hidden scheme that places them in the FKKS. They have pools and spas and a buffet. At the end though, they are smoke filled noisy brothels. Once you factor in sunk cost entrance fees, up-selling costs to get decent service, lung damage from 7 or more hours of breathing in smoke, hearing damage from noise, and EUR50-120 for each pop (in Romanian definition, bored looking girls lying there like a starfish, no kissing, short machine gun blowjob and then insisting you come as fast as you can), it starts to feel like a sausage factory (literally as well as figuratively). They know most guys will have 2. 6 pops. Most girls screw about 7 -10 men on a shift.[/QUOTE]You praised FKKs on this very board 2 weeks ago as a place for men to commune and enjoy the fruits of the female body. But one bad visit prompted this complete 180 in attitude. Is it that you learned so much and objectively crafted this revelatory rebuking manifesto or perhaps this manifesto comes from an experience where you experienced damage to your ego.

[QUOTE=PahllusMaximus;2167178]RLDs allow the girls more freedom of when they want to work, some share a room (thus lowering the overhead), they do not have to parade around etc. That is why the RLDs are cheaper, Frankfurt being an extreme case. Girls sharing a room break even after just two customers.
[/QUOTE]Most FKK girls have freedom of when they want to work. Some FKKs have more of a program than others.

Sharks and Oase girls also break even with 2 clients. NRW girls break even after one. Girls at Sharks, Oceans, and Acapulco are pretty much subjected to no rules, coming and going as the please. Most other clubs just ask for professionalism and to be service oriented. Only a handful of clubs treat the girls like employees or even soldiers.

[QUOTE=PahllusMaximus;2167178]The Romanians are so concentrated in the FKK clubs that I am starting to wonder if they are somehow part of an organised scheme. I don't think I met a single non-Romanian at the several clubs I visted in different cities and countries. [/QUOTE]Many girls (Romanian and non Romanian) have started their "career" in the RLDs in Germany or Amsterdam. So much for the organized scheme in FKK clubs (only). For sure supplies to the Western European P6 scene are organized. Something many mongers don't want to hear of to face.

Funnily enough I spoke to a girl yesterday that worked in the Duisburg RLD for a week. Her main reason to leave was the many Romanian mem walking around with business like intentions. She liked the freedom to just muck about on youtube instead of waiting for clients, but when I told her about the new law about sleeping arrangements, she immediately exclaimed that this would make the whole RLD thing an immediate no go. The emptiness of Duisburg RLD has been an ongoing issue since the start of the year (widely discussed on local forums). The Police even closed down one of the houses (I am not sure if it reopened yet). Because of girls sleeping in their rooms, boys under 18 walking around and a lack of permits for the gambling machines the Optimist referred to.

What Phalus's post is concerned, the moment someone gets excited about the refreshing amount of other nationalities like Spain an Italy. You know everything that follows should be taken with a grain of salt at best. Gut a chuckle out of me here and there though.

Fair enough, though Oase had more variety 2 years ago rather than 100% Romanian. The RLDs definitely had Italians, a Dutch and a German, not BS stories. I have been lucky at the RLDs.

[QUOTE=Takedown;2167627]Probably not likely that they are from any of those countries. Not any more likely than the stories you here from FKK girls anyway. The walk up the stairs create an interesting dilemma. On one hand, you benefit from the cardiovascular warm up. On the other hand, you develop what's called swamp ass, sweaty dampness in the intimate regions.

It's practically common knowledge that there is an organized scheme ran by a collection of lover boys, pimps, and organized crime units. Oase is very Romanian heavy, but you definitely met Hungarians and Bulgarians at Wellcum.

You make it sound like building spa facilities and providing food for the entire day for hundreds of men is an easy feat, completely disregarding the organization and operational work that this involves.

As for kissing and intimacy, does it make a difference whether 10 guys exploded in a girl's mouth prior to you in an FKK versus 2-3 loads of cum in the RLD?

The same biological reward center is involved in cumming. Then again so is winning and achievement.

You praised FKKs on this very board 2 weeks ago as a place for men to commune and enjoy the fruits of the female body. But one bad visit prompted this complete 180 in attitude. Is it that you learned so much and objectively crafted this revelatory rebuking manifesto or perhaps this manifesto comes from an experience where you experienced damage to your ego..[/QUOTE]What a nice world in wish you are believing but the reality is quite different, yesterday at Shark around 3 PM probably 12 cars Mercedes, BMW, Audi with Romanian plates, must be customers. Advice you to arrive.

[QUOTE=RogueNation;2167667]Many girls (Romanian and non Romanian) have started their "career" in the RLDs in Germany or Amsterdam. So much for the organized scheme in FKK clubs (only). For sure supplies to the Western European P6 scene are organized. Something many mongers don't want to hear of to face.[/QUOTE]It used to be more organized before I think with hells angel girls and all that, but after mallorca arrest and artemis police raid, it got less organized at least for german side.

Romanian remain strong as by looking at numbers of Romanians in FKK clubs, there must be some structure of recruitment in Romania so that these girls can come to Germany.

However, it is not necessarily illegal structure, it can be legal structure, I mean FKK is legal set up and it make sense for some kind of support system for girls to work in such jobs, so in Germany FKK management give some support and out side there is an organization that support girls to move to Germany to work, and both can be done legally and such system should be there to support both girls and client.

Ofcourse there are lover boys and pimps etc. , but with internet and all the info going around, such system will be less and less I think.

I mean girls can walk in and work in FKK before and after registration.

I prefer the older days when hells angels girls are around though. I do not see any of them anymore almost since 2015.

[QUOTE=RogueNation;2167667]Many girls (Romanian and non Romanian) have started their "career" in the RLDs in Germany or Amsterdam. So much for the organized scheme in FKK clubs (only). For sure supplies to the Western European P6 scene are organized. Something many mongers don't want to hear of to face.[/QUOTE]People enjoy a fine veal but don't want to be touring a slaughterhouse.

Anyway, it makes sense that the talent supply is organized. When the numbers are in dozens of thousands, the supply route has to be organized. I suspect it is not the organization part that makes us mongers squeamish, but it is the possibility that some of those girls might initially be not totally willing or were duped or resisted. Ofcourse if there is an element of trafficking, that would likely weigh on the conscience of many mongers.

Does that make them hypocrites? I don't see why. You can accuse them of hypocrisy if they close their eyes and ears, and accuse them of actively condoning a crime if they are fully aware of all the ugly underbelly and willingly turn a blind eye. I prefer the former.

[QUOTE=RogueNation;2167667]Many girls (Romanian and non Romanian) have started their "career" in the RLDs in Germany or Amsterdam. So much for the organized scheme in FKK clubs (only). For sure supplies to the Western European P6 scene are organized. Something many mongers don't want to hear of to face.[/QUOTE]So what? Would it be better if the supply to "the Western European scene" were disorganized? What degree of disorganization or anarchy would be required for things to be allright? What are again the standards to which the prostitution industry should be held while the other sectors of industry are free to decide what's best for them and Society?

The suppression apparatus is hyperorganized. It fact it consists in the whole of Society and international community. It swims in money. Police forces the world over, attorneys, judges, mainstream media, millions of networking SJWs and ONGs etc.

Yet the beleaguered prostitution industry should have no right to anything approaching organization. If Rumanian girls are to make a living in prostitution, they should stumble by chance into an FKK while on a cultural tour of Germany. Anything else is trafficking.

At XXL: So nothing. That was a response to PM who suggested that supply to clubs was organized and RLD is different. It is not.

I think perhaps the vague red line for many people goes between where girls are bought and sold on one hand, and pure recruitment on the other hand. And in this matter I doubt anyone really knows how the percentages are. If or any.

In the Philippines these mamasans (women) travel to their home provinces to recruit girls through networks they have there. So basically it is women driven network recruitment as far as I can tell. In Thailand everybody does it, so no need to recruit or make networks at all. LOL. But in China it is organized and girls seems to be bought for a fee from their parents which they need to earn back. One can define it as buying and selling, and one can define it as a work contract similar to footballers or athletes. And in a way, these girls are athletes, sexersising all day, getting in top shape like real professional athletes. In Romania it could be a mix of the 3. But I don't think a Romanian needs to stumble upon it on an inter rail through Germany, LOL! All Romanians knows about it, and they even get told about it at school from their teachers. What better recruitment tool do we need? LOL.

[QUOTE=XXL;2167936]So what? Would it be better if the supply to "the Western European scene" were disorganized? What degree of disorganization or anarchy would be required for things to be allright? [/QUOTE]Salaam, XXL. I think Mr Phallus makes a valid point about "mass import" and how distasteful that is. It's like "processed food" -- it might taste sweet and get you addicted, but ultimately you realize the healthiest stuff is what is fresh and real and served direct by nature. In my experience the best girls have always been the independent freelancers. Ideally they would all be like that. But now there are hardly any. Effectively they are squeezed out by a pimping system that values homogeneity, conformity, predictability, mediocrity, and control -- things that are boring to us as mongers. It's like a human grinding machine, and no, I am not saying this is a case against prostitution: I see the pimping problem in other industries with equally draining effects.

The German government is blameworthy: while pretending to be against pimping, it has greatly strengthened the power of the shadowy middlemen by stopping the FKKs from setting their own rules, thus driving the "management" underground. Something analogous has been going on in the US with the suppression of sites like backpage. Independents suffer, so we mongers also suffer.

Continuing from the other thread:

[URL]https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-02-19/lure-of-polish-riches-leaves-ukraine-bereft-of-workers[/URL]

"Poland, Slovakia and the Czech Republic allow Ukrainians to take temporary employment, usually for a few months. Ukrainians were granted visa-free travel for tourism across the EU last year, easing the passage for some legal workers and others willing to work illegally. Transport links have also improved, including a new train link between Kiev and Warsaw."

So perhaps Sexy Sauna in Prague has started getting a lot of Ukrainians? Has anyone been there lately?

Ok guys, so I fairly regularly post long reports on my experiences in FKKs. Only this weekend a report on Paradise / Oase and Mainhattan.

In about a month's time I have 4 nights before I arrive in Frankfurt. I'm putting out a request for some advice on where to go. I've done all the main clubs Sharks / Oase / Mainhattan / Palace / World / Samya / LR / Oceans / Paradise / Sakura / Artemis / Harmony / Atmos / LR / Sunshine many times.

I'm wondering if I should venure to 4 new clubs on 4 consecutive days and wanted to ask where you think I should try on those 4 days before ending up in Frankfurt.

Thanks.

[QUOTE=RogueNation;2168113]At XXL: So nothing. That was a response to PM who suggested that supply to clubs was organized and RLD is different. It is not.[/QUOTE]Yes, RLDs, FKKs, Laufhauses, same recruitment pool. Girls switch between places and between countries.

I know a girl in a Laufhaus in Bavaria whose sister works at FKK World. She herself dislikes FKKs, so she says, because FKKs imply BBBJs and she only does CBJs.

Some girls are less social and prefer a Laufhaus or a Club rather than an FKK.

On the whole girls have 10 times more mobility and choice of venue than afforded by most normal jobs. Of course SJWs will twist this into proof of trafficking ("girls ordered hither and thither by pimps", "girls mere pieces on a chessboard" etc.).

[QUOTE=PayForIt;2168216]Ok guys, so I fairly regularly post long reports on my experiences in FKKs. Only this weekend a report on Paradise / Oase and Mainhattan.

In about a month's time I have 4 nights before I arrive in Frankfurt. I'm putting out a request for some advice on where to go. I've done all the main clubs Sharks / Oase / Mainhattan / Palace / World / Samya / LR / Oceans / Paradise / Sakura / Artemis / Harmony / Atmos / LR / Sunshine many times.

I'm wondering if I should venure to 4 new clubs on 4 consecutive days and wanted to ask where you think I should try on those 4 days before ending up in Frankfurt.

Thanks.[/QUOTE]Looks like you've hit all of the obvious clubs except Goldentime. Wide variety of women of many ages and still the most diverse nationalities. It's become a staple so you should at least visit it once to see if it fits your style.

Many will recommend YinYang, the Dutch club in Roermond on the Dutch-German border. The facilities and food are top notch but the line up is average for me. Plus for you: no smoking in the club.

I remember recommending Acapulco to you before so you can always try that. Remember, dirty club, shit food and girls are cold outside the room. Strict no approach atmosphere. Many great service girls and cheap at 40 euro. Also a plus for you is the no indoor smoking policy although the escape from smoke is replaced by the smell of stale [url=http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord109][CodeWord109][/url] in the shower areas.

A lesser visited place is Finca Erotica in Dierdorf near Koblenz. It's midway between Frankfurt and Cologne, a 1 HR drive from each and probably a super pain in the ass to reach via public transport. Optics are slim but there are usually 2-3 girls that could compete in the Frankfurt clubs. I've never had a bad room there. The only concern is that it is owned by the same group as Mainhattan and World so BBBJ may be a problem. I haven't heard any recent intel about that.

Best of luck.

Payforit: In addition to Samson Mongers 4 club choices, you also have SixSense near Aachen on the dutch side. Good service club and if you are lucky you also find one or two lookers too.

Then you have Paradise in Saarbrucken which I haven't been to, but I know can attract some good girls. You also have Dolce Vita in Dusseldorf, and although it is well known for upsells, it can have lookers too.

To me, YinYang and Acapulco (girls are not really cold outside the room. They just have a no approach policy) would be a must if I wanted to check out 4 new clubs from your standpoint of previous clubs. For the last 2 I would be more undecided between the last 5 mentioned by me and Samson. Maybe Babylon Elsdorf should be added too. I know one great girl there also, but choices are not spectacular otherwise from what I can tell.

I assume you won't be going to other regions, so that's about it I guess. Other clubs like Mondial, Great Palace, Magnum, Villa Vertigo in nrw are not very high on my list at the moment due to reports lately. But you might want to check up on Austria / Slovenia also one day.

[QUOTE=PayForIt;2168216]Ok guys, so I fairly regularly post long reports on my experiences in FKKs. Only this weekend a report on Paradise / Oase and Mainhattan.

In about a month's time I have 4 nights before I arrive in Frankfurt. I'm putting out a request for some advice on where to go. I've done all the main clubs Sharks / Oase / Mainhattan / Palace / World / Samya / LR / Oceans / Paradise / Sakura / Artemis / Harmony / Atmos / LR / Sunshine many times.

I'm wondering if I should venure to 4 new clubs on 4 consecutive days and wanted to ask where you think I should try on those 4 days before ending up in Frankfurt.

Thanks.[/QUOTE]Over a month ago I had a great time at GT Aca & YY. Aca can be strange the first time. Feels like checking out hot chicks in a graveyard!

I haven't been in Finca since last November but there was no problem with "service as before".

[QUOTE=Polyamorist;2168190]The German government is blameworthy: while pretending to be against pimping, it has greatly strengthened the power of the shadowy middlemen by stopping the FKKs from setting their own rules, thus driving the "management" underground. Something analogous has been going on in the US with the suppression of sites like backpage. Independents suffer, so we mongers also suffer.[/QUOTE]I don't share that opinion. Pimping has no relation to stopping clubs from setting rules for the girls.

There's an easy legal solution: Girls get employed by the clubs. That's legal. If they are employees the employer can set all the rules. But he has to pay social benefits plus taxes. And the girls would have to do the same. Not really their interest. So it sticks to the freelancer model with all its implications.

[QUOTE=XXL;2168237]Yes, RLDs, FKKs, Laufhauses, same recruitment pool. Girls switch between places and between countries.

I know a girl in a Laufhaus in Bavaria whose sister works at FKK World. She herself dislikes FKKs, so she says, because FKKs imply BBBJs and she only does CBJs.

Some girls are less social and prefer a Laufhaus or a Club rather than an FKK.

On the whole girls have 10 times more mobility and choice of venue than afforded by most normal jobs. Of course SJWs will twist this into proof of trafficking ("girls ordered hither and thither by pimps", "girls mere pieces on a chessboard" etc.).[/QUOTE]Yes. As many have said, there must be some level of organisation otherwise how are girls from Romanian small towns going to start their new job in Germany. In some ways no different to employment agencies for any kind of job.

The concerns arise where there is exploitation, in the same way as when I buy an expensive item made in a Bangladesh factory or a Chinese prison. It is very difficult to deal with especially as there is a huge grey area.

People with fixed hostile agendas use the idea of organisation to equal trafficking. This is clearly conflating two different things. Trafficking or exploitation needs some level of organisation, but organisation does not equal trafficking or exploitation (unless one accepts the view that all forms of employment everywhere equals exploitation).

A few years ago a Government report calculated the number of trafficked women in my country by counting the percentage of Romanians and Bulgarians in a few brothels, giving a percentage about 95%, and then said the number of trafficked prostitutes was 95% of the total. The proponents then proposed a ban on prostitution. Fortunately the conflation of trafficking and prostitution was so ridiculed that the law never passed itsmost preliminary stage.

[QUOTE=Optimist;2168463]
The concerns arise where there is exploitation, in the same way as when I buy an expensive item made in a Bangladesh factory or a Chinese prison. It is very difficult to deal with especially as there is a huge grey area.
[/QUOTE]Salaam Aleikum Optimist! If you get a T-shirt made in a Chinese prison, then you don't have to come face-to-face with the prisoner, let alone have sex with her. So if you were looking at it from a purely selfish perspective, it wouldn't make any difference. The product you get is pretty much the same.

It's different with FKKs. I remember my days walking around Aca Velbert, thinking, "90% of these girls are robots!" So the challenge was always not just to find the pretty girls but to find the "real" girls.

And I don't mean to portray these girls as victims because most of them don't act at all like victims. But does it make a difference if they have pimps whispering in their ears, "Don't kiss the customer, don't tell him X, don't tell him Z, lie about your origins, don't tell him how you got here, don't tell him we had this conversation, etc, etc"? Yes, it makes a difference! It crawls all over the girl's personality and makes any personal connection impossible. Which is, really, the point.

That is why I go for the independents. Clearly there is a lot of motivation for a girl to pretend to be independent when she is not (including escorts), but if a guy has a good sense of quality he can feel the difference.

[QUOTE=VitoCorleone;2168385] Aca can be strange the first time. Feels like checking out hot chicks in a graveyard![/QUOTE]LOL. This is very creative writing to describe the scene. LOL.

[QUOTE=VitoCorleone;2168385]Over a month ago I had a great time at GT Aca & YY. Aca can be strange the first time. Feels like checking out hot chicks in a graveyard![/QUOTE]Just a quick post of gratitude for the responses from Vito Corleone, Pistons and Samson Monger. Food for thought. YY sounds like my kind of club. Not sure about Aca! My guess is I'm restricting myself badly by using public transport and I know lots of guys drive. But I won't drink and drive and I like to have some beers in the clubs. Without it I end up picking one decent girl, doing 90 minutes and leaving after a pop. I just cannot stand the boredom of doing nothing whilst recovering. If I have a few beers I'm much better able to have several rooms etc. As the beer of course is an inhibitor to cumming! I don't get wasted (waste of money) but not having a beer at all is a shame. But I guess I need to trade that off against getting to see new clubs. Or returning to the old favourites. Mainhattan deinitely off my list after this last visit. It was truly awful. I like the sound of the Hammam massage in Mondial. I believe there is a gym at YY? I'the like that as I like to use the one in Artemis before any sessions and obviously before the beers!

Thanks again for sharing the options. Very helpful.

[QUOTE=PayForIt;2168655]Just a quick post of gratitude for the responses from Vito Corleone, Pistons and Samson Monger. Food for thought. YY sounds like my kind of club. Not sure about Aca! My guess is I'm restricting myself badly by using public transport and I know lots of guys drive. But I won't drink and drive and I like to have some beers in the clubs. Without it I end up picking one decent girl, doing 90 minutes and leaving after a pop. I just cannot stand the boredom of doing nothing whilst recovering. If I have a few beers I'm much better able to have several rooms etc. As the beer of course is an inhibitor to cumming! I don't get wasted (waste of money) but not having a beer at all is a shame. But I guess I need to trade that off against getting to see new clubs. Or returning to the old favourites. Mainhattan deinitely off my list after this last visit. It was truly awful. I like the sound of the Hammam massage in Mondial. I believe there is a gym at YY? I'the like that as I like to use the one in Artemis before any sessions and obviously before the beers!

Thanks again for sharing the options. Very helpful.[/QUOTE]No gym in YY but a wellness center with a small indoor pool, jacuzzi, sauna, steam bath and a larger outdoor pool. I've never been in the outdoor pool but I'm told it's not heated.

[QUOTE=PayForIt;2168655]Just a quick post of gratitude for the responses from Vito Corleone, Pistons and Samson Monger. Food for thought. YY sounds like my kind of club. Not sure about Aca! My guess is I'm restricting myself badly by using public transport and I know lots of guys drive. But I won't drink and drive and I like to have some beers in the clubs. Without it I end up picking one decent girl, doing 90 minutes and leaving after a pop. I just cannot stand the boredom of doing nothing whilst recovering. If I have a few beers I'm much better able to have several rooms etc. As the beer of course is an inhibitor to cumming! I don't get wasted (waste of money) but not having a beer at all is a shame. But I guess I need to trade that off against getting to see new clubs. Or returning to the old favourites. Mainhattan deinitely off my list after this last visit. It was truly awful. I like the sound of the Hammam massage in Mondial. I believe there is a gym at YY? I'the like that as I like to use the one in Artemis before any sessions and obviously before the beers!

Thanks again for sharing the options. Very helpful.[/QUOTE]I do pubic transport and taxi as I often smoke in club, I may quit this because as much it feels so good to cum, I do not remember most part after as THC cancel out my memory beside it happened, it was beautiful and some crazy thing in big smoke LOL I like to remember so I may stop smoking during FKK trip which is only time I do this actually.

Maybe take book or porn magazine or something during recovery time? I can see a gentleman reading book like [url=http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord901][CodeWord901][/url] in the main bar sofa area of Golden time Bruggen LOL.

[QUOTE=MrHo;2168714]I can see a gentleman reading book like [url=[URL]http://isgprohibitedwords.info[/URL]?inthemainbarsofaareaofGoldentimeBruggenLOL.[/QUOTE]Problem is, GT girls are opposite of being [url=http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord900][CodeWord900][/url]. At least 95%. LOL.

[QUOTE=PayForIt;2168655]Just a quick post of gratitude for the responses from Vito Corleone, Pistons and Samson Monger. Food for thought. YY sounds like my kind of club. Not sure about Aca! My guess is I'm restricting myself badly by using public transport and I know lots of guys drive. But I won't drink and drive and I like to have some beers in the clubs. Without it I end up picking one decent girl, doing 90 minutes and leaving after a pop. I just cannot stand the boredom of doing nothing whilst recovering. If I have a few beers I'm much better able to have several rooms etc. As the beer of course is an inhibitor to cumming! I don't get wasted (waste of money) but not having a beer at all is a shame. But I guess I need to trade that off against getting to see new clubs. Or returning to the old favourites. Mainhattan deinitely off my list after this last visit. It was truly awful. I like the sound of the Hammam massage in Mondial. I believe there is a gym at YY? I'the like that as I like to use the one in Artemis before any sessions and obviously before the beers!

Thanks again for sharing the options. Very helpful.[/QUOTE]If you prefer to drink beer then forget Aca. I believe 5€ a beer & limit to 4 total. GT all you can grab YY free draft beer. I've read LR experiencing some issues with alcohol so currently 50€ entry but no alcohol.

YY has a nice relax area only for clients. No girls bugging you for a room.

I generally travel solo & I like checking out the talent during recovery time. If you're expecting excitement like the "turn down for what" video then maybe samya is the best club for recovery entertainment.

[QUOTE=Pistons;2168770]Problem is, GT girls are opposite of being [url=http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord900][CodeWord900][/url]. At least 95%. LOL.[/QUOTE]That's why the guy was reading the magazine LOL!

[QUOTE=PayForIt;2168655] I like the sound of the Hammam massage in Mondial. [/QUOTE]Hammamdulillah P48! I do 3 hammams a week. And it gets pretty hot and heavy in there! One advantage is that I don't need to bother to shower in the morning any more. Another is that girls don't like to bring condoms into a wet room.

Here in FKK Beyond.

[QUOTE=VitoCorleone;2168775]I generally travel solo & I like checking out the talent during recovery time. If you're expecting excitement like the "turn down for what" video then maybe samya is the best club for recovery entertainment.[/QUOTE]True, samya is nice. The relax room has the best beds also for a nap. Problem is just that you may even sleep better in those than in your hotel bed, so you can oversleep the nap. But that's a good thing I suppose.

The bad thing with Samya is that sometimes the place has a bad smell. I don't know if it is sweat or what, but the entire club smells bad sometimes. Another downside is that most girls there in general are not as sexy as in some other clubs. And the lineup can be a bit shaky. I have been there 7 or 8 times now, and I only have like 2-3 girls I really want to repeat with, and that feels a bit low. And Irene (ex Oceans who later went to Wellcum) who I was also considering also has left apparently. There are too many 6's and 7's at Samya. Or maybe lower 8's. So if like me, you are very choosy on girls, it can be tricky to hit your favourites on a busy night. And that can lead to a little boring day. One or two pretty girls I have met there once, I also did not see again later. So it looses top girls for some reason, even though the place is probably the highest earning club in nrw based on a rough visitor count by yours truly.

[QUOTE=Pistons;2168770]Problem is, GT girls are opposite of bein. At least 95%. LOL.[/QUOTE]For me GT is too much of battle ground where more guys than girls, so I use recovery to seek the next session girl to walk in.

It is hard club to catch girl that you want, so one need to be alert.

[QUOTE=MrHo;2169112]For me GT is too much of battle ground where more guys than girls, so I use recovery to seek the next session girl to walk in.

It is hard club to catch girl that you want, so one need to be alert.[/QUOTE]Spot on. The line up is better than clubs like Samya, YY, LR, or Oceans but the effort it takes to secure a top girl I've never been with gives me anxiety. I found that the best thing for me to do is to knock out one room early so I'm not panicked when it's 6 pm, the club is busy, and I can't find a girl.

[QUOTE=SamsonMonger;2169770]Spot on. The line up is better than clubs like Samya, YY, LR, or Oceans but the effort it takes to secure a top girl I've never been with gives me anxiety. I found that the best thing for me to do is to knock out one room early so I'm not panicked when it's 6 pm, the club is busy, and I can't find a girl.[/QUOTE]And top girls often only go with regular, but this I can get around with bit of talking.

Basically top girls are avoiding 50 euro 30 min session.

However, there is no relaxing at gt when it comes to catching top girls during peak time or weekend. This I miss bigger club where you can take your time and girls are just there.

OK, we all agreed here before that professional mongering is way better from sexual and sex life stand point and cheaper than marriage or having girlfriend.

But why? I mean why these girls always have to dine out, travelling all the time, shopping, buying shit without thinking etc. I mean I wonder where the difference in behavior comes from? Is that because women especially younger ones are more irrational emotional being and we men are more rational planning being? I mean women tend to lead reckless life financially, this lead to conclusion that mongering is cheaper right? Plus monger never have depreciation by age as we can choose girls and change to our choice.

And I actually think younger women are more stable mentally than older ones that are after around age 30, why is that?

Maybe because so many failed relationships due to her fucking around makes her miserable over the years as she blames it all on men and life and this begin to kicks into her personality and even appearance of women around late 20's and after 30 years old for sure.

Just random thought of morning here LOL, but this is true LOL.

[QUOTE=MrHo;2169922]OK, we all agreed here before that professional mongering is way better from sexual and sex life stand point and cheaper than marriage or having girlfriend.[/QUOTE]No, I don't think we all do. It's a hobby and I prefer to leave it at that rather than committing my entire life to it. Some interactions this past trip led me to ponder some things and I will eventually write up my thoughts about how I came to the conclusion that being a Pro in this hobby is something I want to step back from as I found that the guys who are enjoying it the most are the semi-pro guys. From what I've seen, most of the pros have huge social deficiencies. Worse, being over 50 without true companionship and visiting clubs every single weekend to buy an illusion sounds like a pathetic existence if you ask me. I'm young, single, and have disposable income so I enjoy it now, but in the name of Jesus, if I'm doing this on a weekly basis when I'm single and 50, just shoot me and donate my wealth and possessions to charity.

Is it cheaper? If you're with a gold digger or a failed marriage, perhaps. But in western societies, dual income households have become the norm so the expenses are becoming more and more equally shared. I'm in the 30-40 age range and plenty of women in my generation are earning 6 figure incomes. Mortgages, car payments, child costs, etc are split and paid from a combined household fund.

[QUOTE=MrHo;2169922]But why? I mean why these girls always have to dine out, travelling all the time, shopping, buying shit without thinking etc. I mean I wonder where the difference in behavior comes from? Is that because women especially younger ones are more irrational emotional being and we men are more rational planning being? I mean women tend to lead reckless life financially, this lead to conclusion that mongering is cheaper right? Plus monger never have depreciation by age as we can choose girls and change to our choice.
[/QUOTE]You know women come in all varieties right? Not just this stereotype caricature described above. In my experience, the men in my age group may be better at investing but women are generally better at budgeting.

[QUOTE=MrHo;2169922]And I actually think younger women are more stable mentally than older ones that are after around age 30, why is that?

Just random thought of morning here LOL, but this is true LOL.[/QUOTE]They're not and it's not.

[QUOTE=MrHo;2169922]OK, we all agreed here before that professional mongering is way better from sexual and sex life stand point and cheaper than marriage or having girlfriend.[/QUOTE]We do not all agree. It has been repeated here over and over again like a mantra guys who don't have a GF or wife want to believe in so they don't feel like a loser who has to buy the illusion that girls 1/2 or 1/3 their age like to have sex and spend time with them because they can't get a woman in real life. Takedown's thoughts are worth a second read.

[QUOTE=Takedown;2169974]No, I don't think we all do. It's a hobby and I prefer to leave it at that rather than committing my entire life to it. Some interactions this past trip led me to ponder some things and I will eventually write up my thoughts about how I came to the conclusion that being a Pro in this hobby is something I want to step back from as I found that the guys who are enjoying it the most are the semi-pro guys. From what I've seen, most of the pros have huge social deficiencies. Worse, being over 50 without true companionship and visiting clubs every single weekend to buy an illusion sounds like a pathetic existence if you ask me. I'm young, single, and have disposable income so I enjoy it now, but in the name of Jesus, if I'm doing this on a weekly basis when I'm single and 50, just shoot me and donate my wealth and possessions to charity.

Is it cheaper? If you're with a gold digger or a failed marriage, perhaps. But in western societies, dual income households have become the norm so the expenses are becoming more and more equally shared. I'm in the 30-40 age range and plenty of women in my generation are earning 6 figure incomes. Mortgages, car payments, child costs, etc are split and paid from a combined household fund..[/QUOTE]I be waiting for your conclusive thought then. But in name of jesus you wrote LOL.

Man, don't do it for name of Jesus, it is insulting man LOL.

I do it in name of lust and to live sex lives I dreamed when I was a young, well I began this when I was 17 or 18, so LOL.

I used to do both and in one way I do both still, but I am leaning heavily toward pro monger as it is more efficient.

Yes girls comes in all forms, but I only fuck stunners and beautiful girls and I get normal beautiful girls, but these girls are expensive and it is not like they charge me money, the lifestyle to get them is costing me too much, like cars, wining and dining and all the trips I do with them, so I began to lean more toward professional mongering.

For me, the game changer was that, when prostitution industry began to provide the girls that are young around 20 and they are real stunners, kinda girls I try to get, then this was the game changer for me to turn more toward pro monger.

[QUOTE=Takedown;2169974]Worse, being over 50 without true companionship and visiting clubs every single weekend to buy an illusion sounds like a pathetic existence if you ask me.[/QUOTE]A lot of younger guys think like this. It's understandable, especially given all of the societal "indoctrination" that begins the day you are born. Just remember this. "Companionship" and "marriage" are not one and the same thing. You can have companionship without marriage. Even more, you can have a marriage without true companionship! Do what works for you. But remember that. And be careful! Don't let any women score a "takedown" on you, all in the name of love. Protect yourself, including both your own heart as well as any assets you might acquire in life along the way.

[QUOTE=MrHo;2169922]OK, we all agreed here before that professional mongering is way better from sexual and sex life stand point and cheaper than marriage......

Just random thought of morning here LOL, but this is true LOL.[/QUOTE]If Mr. Ho types up the same thing a thousand times and Mr. Cane dutifully agrees with him, that does not make "we all agreed".

A few dozen posters even bother to write here regularly, and other than you two, only a couple even chimed on this topic occasionally. Most men tune out this tiresome repeated advice on what to do with their life from a couple of anonymous guys who visit German brotels a few times a year.

But it is good to see you propose the theory, claim everyone agrees with you, and conclude it with "it is true".

Unlike the WGs you are with, you get your real GFs' (or wives') exclusive service (they don't fuck other men), their attention and love, which is very important to many men because in deep inside of us we all want to be loved and attended. This is fundamental difference between WGs and GFs (or wives). But the downside of having sturdy GFs or wives is that you basically ruin your sex life with different and various sex partners, which is also important for men biologically and from evolutionary point of view. So the question is how to manage these two conflicting interests.

I think that the best way to do it is to have GFs or wives in real life who love you while you monger in FKK clubs. This is achievable for many international mongers. For locals living in Germany or in neighboring countries without GFs or wives in real life, another option is to find FKK's GFs who love you or at least give you their strong affection and attention which make you feel that you are loved, while you monger in FKK clubs.

If you are married or have sturdy GFs, but I don't think they love you or give you enough affection and attention, I think that you are better off without them in your life, assumed that you don't have other commitments like children and so on.

[QUOTE=RogueNation;2170052]We do not all agree. It has been repeated here over and over again like a mantra guys who don't have a GF or wife want to believe in so they don't feel like a loser who has to buy the illusion that girls 1/2 or 1/3 their age like to have sex and spend time with them because they can't get a woman in real life. Takedown's thoughts are worth a second read.[/QUOTE]What is missing in the discussion is what that woman in real life looks like. What she will look like 10 years from now is easy to predict because very few women are still beddable 10 years on.

Speaking for myself I don't buy the illusion girls like to have sex with me. I buy bodily animal contact. I hate kissing. I like the woman to have a pissy-sweaty smell about her. I like it when she fakes in a grossly exagerated manner. I get a kick out of being confronted with female animal camouflage. I think the GF illusion is something some American mongers are after.

Relinquishing long-term relationships in favour of professional mongering is a necessity dictated not only by women's hypergamous instincts and the horrendous gender bias in family courts, but also by women's ridiculously short shelf-life after legal age.

Whatever you think about luuv, girl-friendliness and "real" feelings, mark my words: very few hot women are worth having sex with 10 years on.

Even if she doesn't take you to the cleaners in the meantime, what will you do when your (common law) wive has downgraded from an 8 to a 5? What will you tell her? Will you tell her "the way you look now I wouldn't want you as a girl-friend again"? You won't tell her anything, you will think "does she know what I think of her?". That's absolute hell. Hell for the rest of your life. Decades of hell for the sake of a few years' girl-friend happiness.

A woman after legal age in the West lasts about as long as a new car. Imagine you car is old and you're not even allowed to get rid of it to buy a new one.

Can any of the "pro mongers" tell me how to get in the game? How do you guys get paid for fucking prostitutes? I have been with many, many girls in the clubs, but have never managed to get paid to do so.

Someone (The Cane I think) said how much to spend in the club is a very subjective and personal decision (I fully agree with him). Which club to go, which girls to choose, how much to spend, are all highly personal. So, I am amazed that some people think even more complex topics like "should you be married / have GFs / monger semi professionally / professionally" and so on can be generalized as if one formula fits all.

If you want to share "this is what I am doing and x and y worked for me but z did not", that is fine and encouraged -- but it is highly arrogant and presumptuous to think one's personal likes and experiences should be the guide posts for anyone else except self.

[QUOTE=XXL;2170190]What is missing in the discussion is what that woman in real life looks like. What she will look like 10 years from now is easy to predict because very few women are still beddable 10 years on.

Speaking for myself I don't buy the illusion girls like to have sex with me. I buy bodily contact. I like it when the girl fakes in a grossly exagerated manner. I get a kick out of being confronted with female animal camouflage.

Relinquishing long-term relationships in favour of professional mongering is a necessity dictated not only by women's hypergamous instincts and the horrendous gender bias in family courts, but also by women's ridiculously short shelf-life after legal age..[/QUOTE]Mongering is mongering and companionship is companionship. Perhaps some people don't want companionship; that is a personal decision but it would be wise to make sure that one is honest with himself before making that decision. I don't discount that some people can forgoe companionship in favor of a life of satisfying sex with professional stunner women but those people are in an extreme minority. The rest of us are wired to seek companionship. So if you are in the minority of people who can truly and I mean truly commit to a promongering but companionless life then I salute your individual composition. For most people who deep down desire companionship, I think it would be a miserable and pathetic existence to only pay for sex week (end) in and week (end) out.

I may not be as sexually interested in the same woman 10 years from now but I do want children and for my children to have a mother.

All of this is pretty simple common knowledge right? For most of us, it would be a good idea to not tell ourselves lies about what we desire from women, life, and this hobby.

All of this being said, companionship can be bought and that person can develop real emotions over time. Women in my family have who married much older men for security did eventually develop a version of love for their geriatric provider.

[QUOTE=Jnpr30;2170196]Someone (The Cane I think) said how much to spend in the club is a very subjective and personal decision (I fully agree with him). Which club to go, which girls to choose, how much to spend, are all highly personal. So, I am amazed that some people think even more complex topics like "should you be married / have GFs / monger semi professionally / professionally" and so on can be generalized as if one formula fits all.

If you want to share "this is what I am doing and x and y worked for me but z did not", that is fine and encouraged -- but it is highly arrogant and presumptuous to think one's personal likes and experiences should be the guide posts for anyone else except self.[/QUOTE]If you are referring to my posts regarding pro and semi pro mongering in relation to companionship, I think I adequately conveyed that it is my thoughts for myself and in these posts I left the door open for people who truly do not want companionship. I did not mention anything about amount of money to spend so I will assume that your comment regarding this topic was not about my posts.

This topic is in response to one poster who made the comment "We all agreed that professional mongering is better for sex life and cheaper. " When in fact there is obviously no consensus here. My personal thoughts is that it is better to keep the hobby casual and maintain a real life outside. If mainting a real relationship with casual mongering can be achieved, you will have a good sex life and also emotional security in your old age. I am not confident that sustained pro mongering allows for you to attain that emotional security in your golden years.

For me, the worst possible outcome of becoming professional is the real possibility of finding myself over 50 years old without a companion or children and visiting the clubs every weekend.

[QUOTE=Jnpr30;2170196]
Someone (The Cane I think) said how much to spend in the club is a very subjective and personal decision (I fully agree with him). Which club to go, which girls to choose, how much to spend, are all highly personal..[/QUOTE]Yes. I have friends that like American and Canadian strip clubs. Can you imagine that? Spending $200-400 USD and not even fucking the girl or getting your cock sucked? I have met an old monger that only does massage now (to orgasm). "Hmmm?" I thought? Pay that money and you don't even fuck them? But as I age I kind of understand it. Let her do all the work. I have tried this for my last orgasm of the day when I binge hobby at the FKK/Clinica and I have enjoyed it. Also, there is a considerable difference between Sharks and say the Living Room for example. I found that you just have to have the right mindset and you can enjoy both.

I do like to hear what other guys like because it gives me ideas to try new things. I like to hear about new things including new services, strategies, new girls, new clubs, and new geographies. After all, that is what ISG is all about.

[QUOTE=XXL;2170190]
Speaking for myself I don't buy the illusion girls like to have sex with me...I like it when she fakes in a grossly exagerated manner. I get a kick out of being confronted with female animal camouflage. I think the GF illusion is something some American mongers are after.[/QUOTE]I am exactly the opposite. Passionate DFK is critical. What makes a date GFE to me are DFK, BBBJ, and DATY. I have had dates were 1 of the 3 were missing and I have experimentally determined that the one thing I missed most was the DFK. I love GFE (maybe it is a North American thing but it sure isn't exclusively American. I have too many Canadian Anglo and Quebecois friends that would argue with you XXL). The only think I can say I hate is fake moaning and fake orgasms. You don't have to have one for my benefit mind you. I can tell when someone is crying out like a bad porno for my benefit and I hate it. This happens in China. I love the looks but the fake moaning they do kills me (that and the hairy bushes.).

[QUOTE=XXL;2170190]
A woman after legal age in the West lasts about as long as a new car. Imagine you car is old and you're not even allowed to get rid of it to buy a new one.[/QUOTE]XXL. This is a classic statement.

Mr Ho,

I love your posts, your philosophical views and ideas. Enjoy your life and freedom! If I could, I would put you in charge of the entire FKK recruitment system LOL.

XXL,

Thanks for the new car analogy. I can only add that a GF illusion can fade even sooner than a 10 year period. She may become ugly in a single year if she gets fat, or worse, after having a kid. In other words: it can only get worse, and it will, guaranteed.

Wife:

And that is why I write this post. After 30+ years, sex with wife is deplorable. Separate finances is the only possibility for us to stay together. 100% separate bank accounts, credit cards, retirement funds, etc. I pay 90% of all the bills, including taxes, car insurance, health benefits, and utility. She only pays for food, home decor and clothes. She likes to manage her own investments, I manage my own. Perhaps the only stuff we buy together is lottery tickets LOL. If this changes, I soon move out and file for divorce. Another anchor could be your ageing parents and troublesome kids. All of which is bad.

Marriage:

The only marriage that gets my stamp of approval is when the man is 50 or older. If you want marriage at this age, then ok. But let me clarify. Girlfriends with kids, mortgages, car loans, and property ownership are technically marriage. So beware. And stay out of this shit as far as you can.

FKK women:

I do fall in "love" with certain girls and they become my so-called "regulars / favorites / spoiled / overpaid". However, it gets kinda boring after about 5-10 rooms. I catch myself fantasizing about taking sex to the next level. It may be a room with another man, or group fuck, or some extras she doesn't provide, anal, deepthroat, etc. Of course she will be shocked if you ask for a new thing! It has been too easy for her to use you as a cash cow LOL. Spiritual connection (measured in Euros) is fine, but sex does slide into uninspiring tediousness rather quickly. I need variety. It's inevitable, regardless how good the sex was at the beginning. The more time goes on, I need a girl to be cheaper, more trash, and be happy about it. The only solution seems fucking new girls and visiting different clubs. If I lived in Germany I would most likely have at least one favorite in each club and rotate them weekly.

As Jnpr30 says, we all have different approaches. And even one person's approach can vary according to mood and circumstance. I love to feel at home with a girl, but other times will just want to enjoy her physical performance. It is different with every girl (apart from the mechanical girls who just go through the motions).

Takedown raised some interesting points. I am way past 50 and still enjoy visiting the clubs. I think it is just a question of keeping perspective and knowing what you get out of the hobby compared to other options: it is a hobby, and not the solution to any personal life issues (although sometimes it can be a positive or negative contributor). Take heart Takedown, you don't need to end it all when you are 50: it all depends on your circumstances.

RN. It is ok to buy an illusion, but only if we know it is an illusion and as you suggest don't believe in it: as you imply, it is hiding from reality to mistake a prostitute's affection for a stable reality (except in very rare cases). Like going to see a great play we can admire acting skills, even like the actor as a person, have our emotions stirred, but once we leave the show, we have to leave the illusion behind, hopefully having learnt something about ourselves and the world

As for marriage I never discuss whether it is better or worse than the hobby. I have the luck to be married to a wonderful woman and count it as my good fortune as Bfsie suggests. We all have different circumstances

Cheers.

[QUOTE=Optimist;2170326]Takedown raised some interesting points. I am way past 50 and still enjoy visiting the clubs. I think it is just a question of keeping perspective and knowing what you get out of the hobby compared to other options: it is a hobby, and not the solution to any personal life issues (although sometimes it can be a positive or negative contributor). Take heart Takedown, you don't need to end it all when you are 50: it all depends on your circumstances.[/QUOTE]I agree. Sorry to offend people in the older age brackets. I actually think the hobby can be healthy for regular visitors. I really meant it towards people who are consumed by it. For the German retirees who visit once a week, I think it is healthy. For the single, never married, 52 year old without loved ones, I think visiting the clubs 3-4 days per week is an unhealthy substitute for real affection and a real life. Like RN mentions, it may produce delusions in guys romancing women half their age. In this hobby, there is a fine line between enjoying healthy illusions and becoming delusional.

But yeah, I look forward to being able to be retired and enjoy 20 year old girls. I hope to have something similar to the Sunday Brunch Pensioner crew at Sharks when I am in my 60's and 70's. Those guys seem to enjoy the hobby and the camaraderie in a healthy manner.

I was just reading my post earlier. Believe it or not, I am a native speaker of English. Darn it! Why can't we edit our posts through perpetuity like most other web sites? I am not a very good proof reader of my own writing until after a day or so passes. This is frustrating.

[QUOTE=HungryStud101;2170332]I was just reading my post earlier. Believe it or not, I am a native speaker of English. Darn it! Why can't we edit our posts through perpetuity like most other web sites? I am not a very good proof reader of my own writing until after a day or so passes. This is frustrating.[/QUOTE]Editing policy depends on the site. I think ISG allowing upto one hour is actually good enough. WSJ allows 5 minutes.

One obvious issue: re-editing is unfair and unethical after other members have directly replied to the original comment, or even if it is referenced tangentially.

[QUOTE=Takedown;2169974]No, I don't think we all do. It's a hobby and I prefer to leave it at that rather than committing my entire life to it. Some interactions this past trip led me to ponder some things and I will eventually write up my thoughts about how I came to the conclusion that being a Pro in this hobby is something I want to step back from as I found that the guys who are enjoying it the most are the semi-pro guys. ...[/QUOTE]Takedown, come join me in the dark side!

[QUOTE=TheCane;2170172]A lot of younger guys think like this. It's understandable, especially given all of the societal "indoctrination" that begins the day you are born. Just remember this. "Companionship" and "marriage" are not one and the same thing. You can have companionship without marriage. Even more, you can have a marriage without true companionship! Do what works for you. But remember that. And be careful! Don't let any women score a "takedown" on you, all in the name of love. Protect yourself, including both your own heart as well as any assets you might acquire in life along the way.[/QUOTE]Indoctrination? It's biology and social evolution. Single people die earlier and acquire more disease. That's a statistical fact.

[URL]https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2566023/[/URL]

[QUOTE=SmokeLight;2170322]Mr Ho,

I love your posts, your philosophical views and ideas. Enjoy your life and freedom! If I could, I would put you in charge of the entire FKK recruitment system LOL.


Wife:

And that is why I write this post. After 30+ years, sex with wife is deplorable. Separate finances is the only possibility for us to stay together. 100% separate bank accounts, credit cards, retirement funds, etc. I pay 90% of all the bills, including taxes, car insurance, health benefits, and utility. She only pays for food, home decor and clothes. She likes to manage her own investments, I manage my own. Perhaps the only stuff we buy together is lottery tickets LOL. If this changes, I soon move out and file for divorce. Another anchor could be your ageing parents and troublesome kids. All of which is bad.

Marriage:

The only marriage that gets my stamp of approval is when the man is 50 or older. If you want marriage at this age, then ok. But let me clarify. Girlfriends with kids, mortgages, car loans, and property ownership are technically marriage. So beware. And stay out of this shit as far as you can.

FKK women:.[/QUOTE]Haha, if I have FKK, it will be named FKK No fuck given LOL Girls will be only 19 to 24 years old max, I would keep food simple, but good with things that are hard to go too wrong like past with different sauce, but done good, kebab stand and pizza and salad bar with soup per day with good left over ingredients but done good to keep cost low. Well next life LOL plus I very well know that owning club and visiting club is two different experience unfortunately, it is better to be client.

Yeah, I mean marriage or wife could work, but it is too complicated combined with risks, why so complicate life and rise risk if wife will depreciate in value of appearance after age 30. Like Mr Cane said, companionship do not necessarily need to be married couple, that is only for guys with limited social network who entirely controlled and depend on wife, that is sad but most men are like that, she controls the house hold and even income he makes LOL.

Yeah also me too, I do not fall in love, but some girls craves in and engraved in my book of memory of life, like during repeated session I realize to my self like wow I am living one of the special moment of my life that echoes in eternity for me. You know how I mean? But I keep it at that and not let my self go further even some girls gives me their e mail or fb connection etc. I often think about some girls that left the industry between session in my recovery time like wow she was here few years back walking in from that door into main bar kinda thing, it is nice melancholy moment in FKK for me. Then I am back to hunt more new girls to make new memories LOL.

It is good feeling!

[QUOTE=MyTwoInches;2170181]If Mr. Ho types up the same thing a thousand times and Mr. Cane dutifully agrees with him, that does not make "we all agreed".

A few dozen posters even bother to write here regularly, and other than you two, only a couple even chimed on this topic occasionally. Most men tune out this tiresome repeated advice on what to do with their life from a couple of anonymous guys who visit German brotels a few times a year.

But it is good to see you propose the theory, claim everyone agrees with you, and conclude it with "it is true".[/QUOTE]Hmmm, no need to twist it like that man, giving life advice? No it is just lounge and chit chatting on topic that is hard to discuss in our private life, but being anonymous can let us discuss openly, which in part is purpose of this forum and internet. It gives us freedom to talk to broaden our horizon and exchange ideas and our thought and doubt.

I do not think it is repeated tiresome advice at all, it is the topic many men want to discuss openly but we cannot due to societal eyes and how we are raised, I mean I posted this topic yesterday and look how we are discussing in just 24 hours or so, it is interesting topic for those men who think for ourselves which is many pro mongers. This is true, I mean as an evidence look how the forum grew just in 24 hours, many men think about these things and being anonymous allow us to develop new part of our brain to next level of our understanding and perception on things.

Plus I am not going to put my real name and address on forum man LOL I mean whole point of this forum and in bigger picture internet is in part talking and discussing freely as we can being anonymous. You know what I mean? You perhaps not LOL.

[QUOTE=Takedown;2170350]Indoctrination? It's biology and social evolution. Single people die earlier and acquire more disease. That's a statistical fact.

[URL]https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2566023/[/URL][/QUOTE]Yes, I appropriately use the word "indoctrination" because statistics don't change the reality that man's natural biology is to desire and to seek multiple sex partners. That's the way it is, and that's the way it's been since the dawn of mankind. That's a very, very, very long time, and that's natural biology, and settling for one woman is not. Social evolution and / or any negative consequences resulting from biology haven't changed man's basic natural behavior with respect to this. "Social indoctrination" (shaping the mind to do that which does not come natural to achieve happiness) has had the major impact in my view.

And yet, I agree that there are legitimate social concerns stemming from man's natural sexual behavior, such as having children all over the place whom he is either unwilling or unable to care for as an example. Although, I note this exact same consequence can occur with a married couple as the mere existence of a legal piece of paper between them does not automatically resolve anything in this regard. Anyway, because of the potential negative outcomes to society from man fucking everything that moves versus settling on one, and given man's strong natural biological inclination to do just that, we have to be indoctrinated from birth in the ways of love and marriage and sex with only one woman. For life!

I, for one, have chosen to follow another path that works for me. It's one that I personally consider to be responsible and fair to society, and allows me to live in my happiest state. That would be as single and free and fucking as many women as I want to. When I want to. And I can show you that many, many people have chosen to follow me in that the number of single households in the United States are the highest they have ever been. People are not getting married like they used to. And when they do marry, they don't stay married as half of all marriages end in divorce (seems like "grass is greener" syndrome to me). Further, this is not to suggest that all those single households are full of mongers! In fact, many of those people could be quite unhappy and wishing they were not single. But you know what? If some of them could only discover that there's freedom waiting for them in throwing off their lifelong indoctrination shackles, then some of those unhappy single people just might find joy in being single! Whether that be with mongering being a part of the mix or not. Whatever makes you happy.

Just the thought of being with one woman for life does not make me happy. So I don't do it, and to hell with "social evolution" and what society says! I'm going to keep this simple just by being me. Which doesn't mean patronizing tutes several days a week by the way. It means having a full life with many varied interests, of which fucking pretty girls from all around the world in their butt holes is just one.

[QUOTE=Optimist;2170326]RN. It is ok to buy an illusion, but only if we know it is an illusion and as you suggest don't believe in it: as you imply, it is hiding from reality to mistake a prostitute's affection for a stable reality (except in very rare cases). Like going to see a great play we can admire acting skills, even like the actor as a person, have our emotions stirred, but once we leave the show, we have to leave the illusion behind, hopefully having learnt something about ourselves and the world[/QUOTE]I have seen younger and older guys getting completely swept away by the illusion as they couldn't distinguish between the circus inside the club and what is happening. They got ruined mentally and financially. That is the danger if you get sucked in and don't find your way out, unstable characters with no friends, family and little interest in the non-P6 world once they discovered the clubs and mistook great actors with high EQ for reality.

For me personally, if I had a choice, marriage and kids is the way to go.

Regardless of how a wife can age quickly or not, for a true love marriage it wouldn't mean anything, as it is always known the eyes can be easily be blind if the hearts wants what it wants. Connecting to a person for the rest of your life is as rewarding as it gets, just with an eye contact a wife can understand all her mans needs and vice versa.

We live once, having kids is just beautiful. Seeing your own children growing, learning, living, is an experience no one can really get unless they have their own children, and ID presume it's the best thing that can happen to a man. Ffs seeing your daughter everyday can cure any sadness / depression / anxiety that a man can carry.

That's how I pictured my life, and till this day I think this is how most men should live.

But what I want or think of is something, and reality is something else.

I myself, I'm sure I can never commit to a single lady, I'll probably not even last a year before cheating on my significant other. Therefore at least ATM I don't think I will choose the marrige / GF path.

I share XXL view of sex in a brothel. Not intrested in a pseudo-love dream with a WG, I'm more intrested for the animalstic side, the dirty, the nasty.

[QUOTE=PahllusMaximus;2167178]...

Many of you may not realise this, but the girls use lidocaine / xylocaine / lignocaine to numb their pussies and some use cervical pads as well. They are very much thrashed mattresses and have had hundreds or thousands of cocks in their mouths, pussies or ass. They are in the acting business.

...

[/QUOTE]Wow, I did not knowing this. How you can tell the girl used lidocaine for numb pussy? Or you cannot tell? Can you feeling the cervical pad?

[QUOTE=Takedown;2170350]Indoctrination? It's biology and social evolution. Single people die earlier and acquire more disease. That's a statistical fact.

[URL]https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2566023/[/URL][/QUOTE]The above report is about longevity in the United States specifically. First of all, we need to separate men from the pool of the subjects of this research. Second, we need to remember that most US male population with average or below average income doesn't have much choice in sex life or social life after 60. The lifestyle in monger-friendly societies is different. If a retired man could walk out of his house or apartment and take public transportation to FKK or other P4P establishments the stats of this report might collapse.

[QUOTE=Takedown;2170350]Indoctrination? It's biology and social evolution. Single people die earlier and acquire more disease. That's a statistical fact.

[URL]https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2566023/[/URL][/QUOTE]Single people who never married are much better off. Here is the quote from the report "High risk behaviors" section.

"The never married group exercise slightly more than those that were married and were less likely to be overweight. Overall, those who have never married have slightly better health habits and risk factors than married peers and never married adults have notably better health habits than those who are divorced or separated."

[QUOTE=TheCane;2170172]A lot of younger guys think like this. It's understandable, especially given all of the societal "indoctrination" that begins the day you are born. Just remember this. "Companionship" and "marriage" are not one and the same thing. You can have companionship without marriage. Even more, you can have a marriage without true companionship! Do what works for you. But remember that. And be careful! Don't let any women score a "takedown" on you, all in the name of love. Protect yourself, including both your own heart as well as any assets you might acquire in life along the way.[/QUOTE]Jazakallah Mr Cane! Wise words.

What happened is that people were trained to equate the concept "stable relationship" with marriage, something that is knotted up with the State, the Church, even the taxation system. Then the marriage deal was made more and more unfavorable, especially for guys. So by association people gave up on stable relationships, and turned more and more to what we do. Meanwhile the Third Way (polyamory) is something that people are not supposed to think about at all.

Arguably something similar is happening to the FKK system. The common pattern is:

1. Establish an Approved Way of doing something.

2. Herd people into these camps under initially favorable terms.

3. Wait for people to forget there is any other way of doing things.

4. Gradually make the Approved Way worse and worse.

5. There! The spirits of the inmates are crushed! Their own habits defeat them.

They say that if you put a frog in a pot of cold water and gradually heat it up, it won't jump out, but will just stay there until it is boiled alive. This is not true: frogs are not that dumb. Sadly many polar bears are that dumb, and will continue to visit FKKs many years after they are a shadow of what they once were.

[QUOTE=Takedown;2170350]Indoctrination? It's biology and social evolution. Single people die earlier and acquire more disease. That's a statistical fact.

[URL]https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2566023/[/URL][/QUOTE]Of course widows and ex wives live much longer. Nothing new or surprising there. They thrive on the spoils of slavery.

[QUOTE=XXL;2170579]Of course widows and ex wives live much longer. Nothing new or surprising there. They thrive on the spoils of slavery.[/QUOTE]Please actually read and read carefully. It says married people live longer than people who never marry, the shortest living demographic being men who never marry.

But by all means, hang on to your assertions.

[QUOTE=MyTwoInches;2170181]If Mr. Ho types up the same thing a thousand times and Mr. Cane dutifully agrees with him, that does not make "we all agreed".[/QUOTE]And a thank you for your, shall we say, "2 inches" of input.

[QUOTE=MythoVirus;2170515]I myself, I'm sure I can never commit to a single lady, I'll probably not even last a year before cheating on my significant other. Therefore at least ATM I don't think I will choose the marrige / GF path.[/QUOTE]At least you recognize your weakness, accept it, and then compensate appropriately. I find this admirable. Most men want to have their pussy, then eat other pussies too. They want the beautiful and loving wife, the house, the kids, and all that. But then, they want to go and fuck around on the wife too. And let's not put it all on men either. As I always say, when a man goes and messes around on his wife, he's typically doing that with another woman (usually) who knows he's committed to somebody else (often the case). So, let's not make it look like the women are innocent all the time. They are not, and often instigate the affair themselves. But getting back to you "MythoVirus", congratulations and good for you for being mature enough and introspective enough to go for what works for you! Bravo!

I wish this forum had the option to just do a thumbs up for posts. So many interesting posts: to pick just two.

RN. Your summary was perfect to my way of thinking. I, as you know, have, like many, skirted the precipice. One cannot live all the time in a club.

Polyamorist. Really good summary of the way society controls wayward elements like us LOL.

[QUOTE=Jnpr30;2170339]Editing policy depends on the site. I think ISG allowing upto one hour is actually good enough. WSJ allows 5 minutes.

One obvious issue: re-editing is unfair and unethical after other members have directly replied to the original comment, or even if it is referenced tangentially.[/QUOTE]Re-editing is unethical? Unethical? I think we sometimes take ourselves a little too seriously. After all, this is a hooker board.

Please watch the South Park Season 19 episode entitled "Your Not Yelping. ".

[QUOTE=TheCane;2170480]Yes, I appropriately use the word "indoctrination" because statistics don't change the reality that man's natural biology is to desire and to seek multiple sex partners. That's the way it is, and that's the way it's been since the dawn of mankind. That's a very, very, very long time, and that's natural biology, and settling for one woman is not. Social evolution and / or any negative consequences resulting from biology haven't changed man's basic natural behavior with respect to this. "Social indoctrination" (shaping the mind to do that which does not come natural to achieve happiness) has had the major impact in my view.

People are not getting married like they used to. And when they do marry, they don't stay married as half of all marriages end in divorce (seems like "grass is greener" syndrome to me).[/QUOTE]Rejecting companionship in favor of an argument of biological evolution has one huge fallacy: those hundreds and thousands of years of evolution does not factor in that we live 2-3 times longer than primitive humans. Do 60 year old men have the same needs as a 17 year old boy? I'd hope not. When living into old age, companionship becomes a higher priority which is why I quoted the literature / research.

Be sure, I am not talking about monogamy, there just isn't any literature about companionship so I had to settle on literature regarding marriage.

I'm talking about the need for companionship while differentiating physical and emotional needs. If you want to designate modern acts that satisfy emotion needs into the term indoctrination, then you can have your point. Otherwise, I will go on to say that survival and happiness are not one and the same. Yes, hundreds of thousands of years evolution has biologically programmed us to spread many seeds into many vessels, but fulfilling that one need is not the sole source of happiness. Cumming 3 times a day with no real companionship would still lead for me to be a depressed man. So I reject your use of the term indoctrination, rather it is survival for the modern man.

[QUOTE=SmokeLight;2170568]The above report is about longevity in the United States specifically. First of all, we need to separate men from the pool of the subjects of this research. Second, we need to remember that most US male population with average or below average income doesn't have much choice in sex life or social life after 60. The lifestyle in monger-friendly societies is different. If a retired man could walk out of his house or apartment and take public transportation to FKK or other P4P establishments the stats of this report might collapse.[/QUOTE]Are you hanging your hat on a hypothesis that mongering would extend a never married man's life to that of a married man and discounting the value of true companionship? Sounds like you're suggesting that only the mere act of physical sex with attractive women is what it would take to keep men alive longer rather than companionship and connection with another human being?

[QUOTE=SmokeLight;2170572]Single people who never married are much better off. Here is the quote from the report "High risk behaviors" section.

"The never married group exercise slightly more than those that were married and were less likely to be overweight. Overall, those who have never married have slightly better health habits and risk factors than married peers and never married adults have notably better health habits than those who are divorced or separated."[/QUOTE]Yet mortality is higher in the never married group. So all of those good habits is not enough to overcome the stress and detrimental effects related to loneliness and all things that come with being alone in life. If anything, you pointing out the detrimental habits of married people only puts more emphasis on the need for companionship in old age.

[QUOTE=HungryStud101;2170686]Re-editing is unethical? Unethical? I think we sometimes take ourselves a little too seriously. After all, this is a hooker board.

[/QUOTE]If you had typed a comment, someone had replied to it, and THEN you re-edit your original comment, of course it is not the right thing to do.

If you think this is just a hooker board and we should not take things seriously, why did you lament that your original comment did not come our right?

As (probably) the Methuselah of the Forum, my continued existence is proof that being married and visiting brothels is the secret to a long life (like the 100 year olds who put down their longevity to smoking or drinking). Of course, what I say trumps all statistical evidence LOL.

Takedown. You at your young age are very wise. Companionship (as The Cane says, not synonymous with marriage) in life outside clubs gets more and more important as I get older. Or more accurately maybe what the French refer to as la tendresse. In fact, also when visiting clubs. It is good if I can have sex with six young women in one day, but infinitely better if I get on well with them: of the two options the sex is the less precious, unlike when I first visited clubs. The best workers know this and use it to earn more money.

My two pence worth

[QUOTE=Optimist;2170737]As (probably) the Methuselah of the Forum, my continued existence is proof that being married and visiting brothels is the secret to a long life (like the 100 year olds who put down their longevity to smoking or drinking). Of course, what I say trumps all statistical evidence LOL.

Takedown. You at your young age are very wise. Companionship (as The Cane says, not synonymous with marriage) in life outside clubs gets more and more important as I get older. Or more accurately maybe what the French refer to as la tendresse. In fact, also when visiting clubs. It is good if I can have sex with six young women in one day, but infinitely better if I get on well with them: of the two options the sex is the less precious, unlike when I first visited clubs. The best workers know this and use it to earn more money.

My two pence worth[/QUOTE]Secret of long life is in Okinawa Japan and it is because of food and culture there. I think marriage can make you live longer if it is working our good, but if it is not marriage will kill you slowly, but surely both physically and financially LOL So it is like a strong medicine, if it works it works, if it does not marriage is lethal weapon to your life LOL.

As for companionship or connection with people, I got plenty and it does not need to be with wife, that is for guys who are billy no mate with only blocked choices in lives. Companionship can be friends or pets even, I even think dogs can connect with human than some of wives by looking at it.

Good marriage is good, but bad ones are lethal and remember most marriage fails.

It is cult religion conducted by society, governments and religion to fool men.

They show you love, that how they fool ya LOL!

[QUOTE=Takedown;2170696]Rejecting companionship in favor of an argument of biological evolution has one huge fallacy. Do 60 year old men have the same needs as a 17 year old boy? I'd hope not. When living into old age, companionship becomes a higher priority which is why I quoted the literature / research. I'm talking about the need for companionship while differentiating physical and emotional needs. If you want to designate modern acts that satisfy emotion needs into the term indoctrination, then you can have your point. Otherwise, I will go on to say that survival and happiness are not one and the same. Yes, hundreds of thousands of years evolution has biologically programmed us to spread many seeds into many vessels, but fulfilling that one need is not the sole source of happiness. [/QUOTE]And you my friend have committed one huge fallacy if you are suggesting that I am rejecting companionship as a worthy thing. I am not. Nor did I say (or even suggest) that 60 year-old men and 17 year-old boys have the same needs. Or that survival and happiness are both the same thing. That all came from you! It's as if you are more interested in making some counterargument than really "hearing" and considering the main points I made.

I said that marriage and companionship are not the same thing, and that one can even have a marriage with no companionship. That was not said to "reject" companionship. It was just to point out something that people don't realize sometimes. I talked about having a full and varied life, the importance of which becomes more evident as one grows older, like say when you're 60 versus 17? And I absolutely did not suggest that spreading one's seed around is the sole source of happiness! That came from you. No need for you to put words in my mouth or attempt to make my points for me.

You know, it's the younger guys who think they know everything too. You see, I was one of those younger guys before, so I know this from experience! Let's have this conversation again in 20 years (if we're both still going) and see what you think then.

[QUOTE=Optimist;2170326]Snip. As for marriage I never discuss whether it is better or worse than the hobby. I have the luck to be married to a wonderful woman and count it as my good fortune as Bfsie suggests. We all have different circumstances

Cheers.[/QUOTE]Does this wonderful woman know about and agree to your fucking dozens of other women, and spending thousands, if not tens of thousands, of dollars that she could rightly consider at least partly hers to do so? If she does, then she is indeed a wonderful woman, and you are to be congratulated on your good fortune. If she does not know about or agree to your hobby, then your relationship with her is based on dishonesty, and you are abusing her love and trust. Would you like her to use your money to find boy toys to fuck her behind your back?

[QUOTE=JimmyBoy99;2170961]Does this wonderful woman know about and agree to your fucking dozens of other women, and spending thousands, if not tens of thousands, of dollars that she could rightly consider at least partly hers to do so? ...[/QUOTE]A woman has no right to consider a man's money is (partly) hers. When a man considers a woman's money to be partly his we call him a pimp.

Things may be different if a man is squandering his wife's inheritance.

Optimist is clearly not the only married man to go in brothels.

XXL you're right, and when a woman in a club considers a guest's money to be only hers (and the guy obeys) , I call the guy a wimp.

[QUOTE=XXL;2170968]A woman has no right to consider a man's money is (partly) hers. When a man considers a woman's money to be partly his we call him a pimp.

Things may be different if a man is squandering his wife's inheritance.[/QUOTE]Lots of marriages have joint finances. And in lots of marriages, the woman makes more money. The money is theirs together. Welcome to the 21st century.

[QUOTE=XXL;2170968]A woman has no right to consider a man's money is (partly) hers. When a man considers a woman's money to be partly his we call him a pimp.

Things may be different if a man is squandering his wife's inheritance.[/QUOTE]Well I agree with you, but there is one huge problem in many nations concerning your stand point., law do not legally agree with us LOL LOL!

[QUOTE=Optimist;2170737]Or more accurately maybe what the French refer to as la tendresse. In fact, also when visiting clubs. It is good if I can have sex with six young women in one day, but infinitely better if I get on well with them: of the two options the sex is the less precious, unlike when I first visited clubs.[/QUOTE]Salaam Optimist, as it happens I was thinking about this the other day and I came to the conclusion there are four types of sexual experience:

1. The girl doesn't like you and gives a low level of service.

2. The girl performs a lot of service but you can't tell if she likes you or not.

3. The girl performs limited service but you nevertheless get the sense she likes you.

4. The girl likes you and does an awesome job. Of course this is what we as mongers always seek!

Type 2 behavior can occur in clubs with strict management. For instance some have reported it in Globe. Personally I remember a time in Macau where a "model" girl put on the most awesome PSE performance ever for me: I just wasn't sure I was part of that performance, so left with mixed feelings.

Type 3 might occur with a proud or inexperienced girl in an environment where services are not standardized. You can easily forgive limited service if she leaves you with the feeling that she really likes you and you can build on what you have for a better experience next time. Of course you have to consider the possibility that she is fooling you, especially if there was no DFK.

Indeed, for "la tendresse", many guys will observe how girls can switch it on or off like a light, and grow frustrated at how random it all seems. Even apathy may set in: "I don't give a damn for these games: just gim-me the suck-and-fuck and I'm out-ta here!"

[QUOTE=JimmyBoy99;2170961]Does this wonderful woman know about and agree to your fucking dozens of other women, and spending thousands, if not tens of thousands, of dollars that she could rightly consider at least partly hers to do so? If she does, then she is indeed a wonderful woman, and you are to be congratulated on your good fortune. If she does not know about or agree to your hobby, then your relationship with her is based on dishonesty, and you are abusing her love and trust. Would you like her to use your money to find boy toys to fuck her behind your back?[/QUOTE]Why so harsh on married men? Its normal for people all over to have multiple partners before / after and even while still married.

In some societies one can marry several women at same time legally while in others people maintain / sponsor mistress / girl friends.

Even if it is taboo and in some societies men / women just change their sex partners like it means nothing.

What's important is at time of relationship both or everyone involved have consent. And that can happen for multiple reasons Itself.

One may like physical presence. Other may like intellect. Some run after confidence some after power, in business of pleasure its.

Money / gifts that's works (While money works in most cases while people acknowledge it or not).

[blue]===========================================[/blue]

[blue]This report was originally written with all the words in Proper Case, which means that the first letter of every word was capitalized. The report was subsequently edited by Admin to normal case, which means that the incorrectly capitalized words were changed to all lower case except for proper nouns and the first letter of each sentence.[/blue]

[blue]Greetings,

I sincerely appreciate your contributions to the forum, but...

[red][u]Would you please refrain from capitalizing the first letter of EVERY word in your reports![/u][/red]

It's difficult to read, it's time consuming to fix, and it takes you more work to write like that.

On behalf of myself and your fellow Forum Members: [i]Thank You![/i][/blue]

[QUOTE=JimmyBoy99;2170961]Does this wonderful woman know about and agree to your fucking dozens of other women, and spending thousands, if not tens of thousands, of dollars that she could rightly consider at least partly hers to do so? If she does, then she is indeed a wonderful woman, and you are to be congratulated on your good fortune. If she does not know about or agree to your hobby, then your relationship with her is based on dishonesty, and you are abusing her love and trust. Would you like her to use your money to find boy toys to fuck her behind your back?[/QUOTE]All agreed and above board and open. Nothing behind backs.

You are right to focus on the financial arrangements. It is possible to be married but for there to be financial autonomy. Without this marriage could become a form of slavery. As an aside, the working girls often are acutely aware that me being married limits my potential as a sugar daddy lol

[QUOTE=JimmyBoy99;2170961]Does this wonderful woman know about and agree to your fucking dozens of other women, and spending thousands, if not tens of thousands, of dollars that she could rightly consider at least partly hers to do so? If she does, then she is indeed a wonderful woman, and you are to be congratulated on your good fortune. If she does not know about or agree to your hobby, then your relationship with her is based on dishonesty, and you are abusing her love and trust. Would you like her to use your money to find boy toys to fuck her behind your back?[/QUOTE]I can only speak for myself. Married many years, I tell my wife she can have sex on the side as much as she wants. And she should be thankful that I am with her and pay most of all her life expenses. Regarding two aspects, moral and financial. Financially, it would be improper to disclose to a wife any P4P spendings, as it could be used directly against you in a court. Morally, yes, fucking dozens of other women is moral, because it is your wellness. You pay for a gym, travel to a vacation resort, visit a psychologist when dealing with a complicated family issue. Same with mongering. It is not dishonest because you are buying services offered by a sex worker, not having second family with five kids in another country LOL.

[QUOTE=Jnpr30;2170705]If you had typed a comment, someone had replied to it, and THEN you re-edit your original comment, of course it is not the right thing to do.

If you think this is just a hooker board and we should not take things seriously, why did you lament that your original comment did not come our right?[/QUOTE]Oh that. I made a few typos. Other times, I forgot to add details to a report and I could no longer do so.

As you can see, I don't come here to argue very often. I come here for fun. I write trip reports for fun and to help others. We are not solving world hunger.

You should at least be able to edit until someone replies to you post.

[QUOTE=Polyamorist;2171024]
Indeed, for "la tendresse", many guys will observe how girls can switch it on or off like a light, and grow frustrated at how random it all seems. Even apathy may set in: "I don't give a damn for these games: just gim-me the suck-and-fuck and I'm out-ta here!"[/QUOTE]Your four levels provide a good framework to work within. The fourth level you describe is an area where reality and illusion are hardest to disentangle. There are three variants.

1. In most cases it will be that the girl has a high Emotional Intelligence and can tune in to many different guys. It is real but it is only within a commercial relationship. If the girl and client are stable then it can work as a club relationship. (a sub division would be whether or not the girl is consciously turning on the Emotional Intelligence or it is intrinsic to her core).

2 More often the girl and guy are emotionally vulnerable and one or other plays games, either intentionally, or out of their emotional uncertainty. The risk of harm in these cases is high. This is where it is important for both parties to get out, but it is hard to do so.

3. The situation grows so that it moves into a non- commercial and non-club relationship. This is rare, and leads swiftly either to break up, or more rarely, a lasting relationship.

The problem is trying to work out what exactly is happening in any particular case.

Of course, many guys will choose the less complex and risky option of fuck and go.

Cheers.

[QUOTE=XXL;2170968]A woman has no right to consider a man's money is (partly) hers. When a man considers a woman's money to be partly his we call him a pimp.

Things may be different if a man is squandering his wife's inheritance.[/QUOTE]Exactly so. When my wife was working, her colleagues were most concerned to know that she was in charge of her earnings, not me. Otherwise I would have been no different to a pimp and they made it clear that would have been the lowest of the low

[QUOTE=TheCane;2170885]And you my friend have committed one huge fallacy if you are suggesting that I am rejecting companionship as a worthy thing. I am not. Nor did I say (or even suggest) that 60 year-old men and 17 year-old boys have the same needs. Or that survival and happiness are both the same thing. That all came from you! It's as if you are more interested in making some counterargument than really "hearing" and considering the main points I made.

I said that marriage and companionship are not the same thing, and that one can even have a marriage with no companionship. That was not said to "reject" companionship. It was just to point out something that people don't realize sometimes. I talked about having a full and varied life, the importance of which becomes more evident as one grows older, like say when you're 60 versus 17? And I absolutely did not suggest that spreading one's seed around is the sole source of happiness! That came from you. No need for you to put words in my mouth or attempt to make my points for me..[/QUOTE]Your examples and your logic are incongruent, hence my rebuttals. Mentioning thousands of years of biological tendency but putting very little emphasis on companionship is why I presented my counterargument.

Regarding companionship: you first used the term "indoctrination" to refer to my views on that. However, we both agree that companionship does not equal marriage. I have made all attempts to consistently use that term rather than marriage but remember you made the argument of indoctrination in relation to marriage, your assumption not mine.

Optimist referenced his open transparency with his spouse regrading this hobby. This shows his value for companionship and seems to be exactly what I want. Companionship and fucking multiple women. You on the other hand stated that you chose a life of being "single and free and fucking." You seemed pretty ecstatic about that lifestyle without mention of a desire for companionship so it seems to the reader that you don't value the latter, which is within your right. But that is the point of this subject, the value of companionship versus freely fucking.

Regarding age:

"It is not the years in your life but the life in your years that counts." -Adlai Stephenson.

[QUOTE=Takedown;2171075]Optimist referenced his open transparency with his spouse regrading this hobby. This shows his value for companionship and seems to be exactly what I want. Companionship and fucking multiple women. You on the other hand stated that you chose a life of being "single and free and fucking." You seemed pretty ecstatic about that lifestyle without mention of a desire for companionship so it seems to the reader that you don't value the latter, which is within your right. But that is the point of this subject, the value of companionship versus freely fucking.[/QUOTE]You don't know me, and make all kinds of assumptions that simply are not correct about what or how I think. You can't truly and fully know me from this forum. I hold stuff back, as most of us probably should, as discretion is the better part of valor. You put words into my mouth, and then call it all "incongruent", and I don't like that. That said, I hope you do find what you're looking for. It's not so easy, believe me. But, I told the story here a long time ago of a friend of mine who has just that. What you say Optimist says he has, and what you say you want. A spouse's permission to see prostitutes. His wife lost her sex drive, but understood that he still needed to have sex to have a happy life. So, she gave him permission to see prostitutes.

She gave him only two rules. "Don't ever bring one of those women to my house"! And don't spend too much money. I've known a lot of men in my life, and he's the only one I personally ever met who had that arrangement. So happy hunting! I know (from experience) that the swinging lifestyle is much, much more prevalent. Where husband and wife explore sexual relations with strangers together. Swapping. And even then, it's not easy to find a woman who will be down with that either. But, it's far easier than finding one who will let you see prostitutes on the side! That's just my life experience. Like I said, I sincerely hope you find what you need.

And speaking of Optimist, I have a legitimate question I want to ask. Really, Optimist. It's not meant to be a slight or an attack against you. But, Takedown holds you out as somebody who has "companionship" with your wife, and she allows you to be "transparent" in this hobby. In other words, she allows you to see prostitutes. Now, it just seems to me that when you do see prostitutes, your approach or "style" is to seek out and obtain some high level of "connection" and "companionship" with them. If you already have that with your wife, as Takedown suggests, then why do you place so much emphasis on having that with a prostitute too? I mean, that's what I get out of your posts, and I'm just trying to understand. If you have this wonderful companionship with your wife, as Takedown says, then why do you need to seek that out with prostitutes as well? At a starting point, it suggests to me that this companionship that you're getting at home isn't quite enough. Or, maybe it meets a different kind of need? I don't know. Just trying to understand. Maybe your "companionship" with your wife is not sexual in nature, like my friends isn't? And so you get that somewhere else? But as far as I know about him, he's not particularly seeking "companionship" with prostitutes either. He's just having fun and fucking. Just trying to understand.

Now, I've been in a particular stage in my life. And I like it! I don't want to ever get married. I'm pretty sure of that. But, I also know that I don't need to get married in order to have a companion! And, I also know that what I emphasized as being the most important things in life at 17 changed at 27, and on and on. About every decade a changed view of what's most important in life. And I see that continuing right into the twilight years. Where I'm going with this is that I can see a future where I don't want to monger so much anymore, if at all, in favor of. Companionship. Yes! Which I don't have to marry to have! But, I'm just not there yet, and living that life of being single and free and fucking pretty girls all over the world. But one day, that will come to an end. One way or the other, it's going to end. And, I hope I will be ready to welcome it. Maybe even with a little companionship! That's just not where I'm at yet. But I know things change with time. You can't stop change. Because change happens!

"You can teach an old dog new tricks" - Psychology Today.

TheCane.Your questions are diplomatic and you have raised this before. Maybe the way I write gives a false picture that I am after a high level connection and provokes these questions: I apologise for misleading. I don't want to turn this thread into a study of me: I am no model for anybody. (Btw I agree with your penultimate paragraph completely)

You ask why I am looking for the same thing from prostitutes as I have at home: the word "companionship " may be the same, but the quality is worlds apart. It is NOT the same thing, any more than a mass produced food item with cheap ingredients is the same as a top quality one: chocolate is a word which encompasses garbage and the heavenly.

I can see the sense of what you say. But there are other explanations. First, by the way, companionship and sex with my wife is great. When I visit clubs now I am not looking to fill a vacuum, but to meet radically different people from different backgrounds: in a small room naked eye to eye with a stranger it is easy to strip away to some extent the social constructs we live in normally. There are other ways of doing this but this is one I have found (and I like to see - and more- naked women). I don't look for a high level connection, just to learn and experience something new. 90% of the time I would be better off at home: but the 10% is worth it

A serious relationship with a prostitute would destroy the most important things in my life. I just look for girls I am comfortable with and like, and who appear to reciprocate. Probably I am no different to many club visitors: I suspect the way I write makes it sound more profound than it is.

If you want to continue then maybe PM?

Cheers.

[QUOTE=Optimist;2171238]TheCane. Complicated questions. I don't want to turn this thread into a study of me I am no model for anybody: it would be arrogant and foolish of me. I agree with your penultimate paragraph completely

Your questions are diplomatic and you have raised this before. Maybe the way I write gives a false picture that I am searching to find some high level connection and provokes these questions: I apologise for misleading

In short, you ask why I am looking for the same thing from prostitutes as I have with my wife: the word "companionship " may be the same, but the quality is worlds apart. It is NOT the same thing, any more than a mass produced food item with cheap ingredients is the same as a top quality one: chocolate is a word which encompasses garbage and the heavenly.

I can see the sense of what you say. But there are other explanations. First, by the way, companionship and sex with my wife is great..[/QUOTE]Well we cannot verify the quality level of your wife with what you say, but I hope at least she does not age LOL.

[QUOTE=TheCane;2171177]
And speaking of Optimist, I have a legitimate question I want to ask. Really, Optimist. It's not meant to be a slight or an attack against you. But, Takedown holds you out as somebody who has "companionship" with your wife, and she allows you to be "transparent" in this hobby. In other words, she allows you to see prostitutes. Now, it just seems to me that when you do see prostitutes, your approach or "style" is to seek out and obtain some high level of "connection" and "companionship" with them. If you already have that with your wife, as Takedown suggests, then why do you place so much emphasis on having that with a prostitute too? I mean, that's what I get out of your posts, and I'm just trying to understand. If you have this wonderful companionship with your wife, as Takedown says, then why do you need to seek that out with prostitutes as well? At a starting point, it suggests to me that this companionship that you're getting at home isn't quite enough. Or, maybe it meets a different kind of need? I don't know. Just trying to understand. [/QUOTE]Salaam Mr Cane. It's funny how monogamist assumptions go so deep, even on a forum like this. The idea that you can have one deep connection in your life and that ipso facto rules out all other deep connections or even medium-level connections. Where did that idea come from?

From a polyamorist perspective I would say that any friend that tells you you cannot have other friends is not your true friend. Any business client who tells you you can't have other clients is not good business. And yes, even in love: it is not about ownership, it is not about monopoly. If you have a good thing, multiply it!

So basically I am glad that Optimist is as successful as he is, and he has no need to apologize for that success.

[QUOTE=HungryStud101;2171040]Oh that. I made a few typos. Other times, I forgot to add details to a report and I could no longer do so.

As you can see, I don't come here to argue very often. I come here for fun. I write trip reports for fun and to help others. We are not solving world hunger.

You should at least be able to edit until someone replies to you post.[/QUOTE]I am a guy who has 10 mistakes and 20 typos in a sentence. So, I completely understand wanting to edit and re-edit.

I don't think ISG is technically equipped to allow editing exactly until someone replies to the original post; far more easier to allow editing based on a time stamp.

[QUOTE=Polyamorist;2171288]It's funny how monogamist assumptions go so deep, even on a forum like this. The idea that you can have one deep connection in your life and that ipso facto rules out all other deep connections or even medium-level connections. Where did that idea come from?[/QUOTE]I don't think monogamists believe that one deep connection rules out all other deep connections. It just in some ways makes it less complicated.

Some of it is a matter of resource allocation. A lifetime spent with one single person would naturally lead to a very deep intimate knowledge. The more you divide your time, the more diluted the product. Not to say that you can't have meaningful more diluted relationships. Some may be more capable than others of dividing attention. Some may not be able to do it at all. Not all people are built to be polyamorous.

[QUOTE=Optimist;2171032]All agreed and above board and open. Nothing behind backs.

You are right to focus on the financial arrangements. It is possible to be married but for there to be financial autonomy. Without this marriage could become a form of slavery. As an aside, the working girls often are acutely aware that me being married limits my potential as a sugar daddy lol[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=TomKash;2171025]Why so harsh on married men? Its normal for people all over to have multiple partners before / after and even while still married.

In some societies one can marry several women at same time legally while in others people maintain / sponsor mistress / girl friends.

Even if it is taboo and in some societies men / women just change their sex partners like it means nothing.

What's important is at time of relationship both or everyone involved have consent. And that can happen for multiple reasons Itself.

One may like physical presence. Other may like intellect. Some run after confidence some after power, in business of pleasure its.

Money / gifts that's works (While money works in most cases while people acknowledge it or not).
[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=SmokeLight;2171035]I can only speak for myself. Married many years, I tell my wife she can have sex on the side as much as she wants. And she should be thankful that I am with her and pay most of all her life expenses. Regarding two aspects, moral and financial. Financially, it would be improper to disclose to a wife any P4P spendings, as it could be used directly against you in a court. Morally, yes, fucking dozens of other women is moral, because it is your wellness. You pay for a gym, travel to a vacation resort, visit a psychologist when dealing with a complicated family issue. Same with mongering. It is not dishonest because you are buying services offered by a sex worker, not having second family with five kids in another country LOL.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=Optimist;2171045]Exactly so. When my wife was working, her colleagues were most concerned to know that she was in charge of her earnings, not me. Otherwise I would have been no different to a pimp and they made it clear that would have been the lowest of the low[/QUOTE]The traditional, standard, Christian wedding vow (I don't know about Jewish or Muslim wedding vows) includes a phrase like "forsaking all others, to be faithful only to him / her as long as you both shall live". The intent at the begining of the marriage, based on their vows, is to be exclusive sexual partners. What they decide to do freely and without coercion after that is their business. However, when one of them decides secretly not to keep the vow, it is by definition cheating and dishonest, no matter how many married men visit hookers.

Marriage is traditionally supposed to be a partnership, with each party contributing their resources for the benefit of the family unit. Use of those resources, except on a De minimis basis, is supposed to be a joint decision and the resources used for the benefit of the family unit, unless they have freely and without coercion decided otherwise. Secretly spending thousands of dollars on hookers is not a wellness issue, nor what a true partner does.

[QUOTE=Jnpr30;2171301]I am a guy who has 10 mistakes and 20 typos in a sentence. So, I completely understand wanting to edit and re-edit.

I don't think ISG is technically equipped to allow editing exactly until someone replies to the original post; far more easier to allow editing based on a time stamp.[/QUOTE]As long as you did not make mistake of getting married it is just fine.

Furthermore, this is not university essay or business paper, it is merely a chit chat forum, no need to be perfectly correct with spelling etc.

[QUOTE=JimmyBoy99;2171369]The traditional, standard, Christian wedding vow (I don't know about Jewish or Muslim wedding vows) includes a phrase like "forsaking all others, to be faithful only to him / her as long as you both shall live". The intent at the begining of the marriage, based on their vows, is to be exclusive sexual partners. What they decide to do freely and without coercion after that is their business. However, when one of them decides secretly not to keep the vow, it is by definition cheating and dishonest, no matter how many married men visit hookers.

Marriage is traditionally supposed to be a partnership, with each party contributing their resources for the benefit of the family unit. Use of those resources, except on a De minimis basis, is supposed to be a joint decision and the resources used for the benefit of the family unit, unless they have freely and without coercion decided otherwise. Secretly spending thousands of dollars on hookers is not a wellness issue, nor what a true partner does.[/QUOTE]I am a bit unclear how what you say relates to each of the several quotes you set out. I assume that you are agreeing that a couple who agree how they spend their combined resources can include either party spending money on things which they individually choose, as long as the total amount is agreed.

As for traditional wedding vows, let us forget them: they until recently required women to obey their husbands! But as you say, any relationship where there is dishonesty, needs some work.

We can discuss this at length, but I think it is better we let isg members choose their own ways of living, married, single, polyamorist :) , or whatever

[QUOTE=MrHo;2171251]Well we cannot verify the quality level of your wife with what you say, but I hope at least she does not age LOL.[/QUOTE]Ahh. That is the rub. Even she cannot stop the natural order of things LOL.

As you say, sometimes even dogs are better companions than spouses :)

Arigato

Polyamorist. Nice post.

[QUOTE=Optimist;2171449]Ahh. That is the rub. Even she cannot stop the natural order of things LOL.

As you say, sometimes even dogs are better companions than spouses :)

Arigato[/QUOTE]Yeah, depend, but usually yes.

Like the saying about beautiful girls, bed them, but don't wed them LOL.

This is very true.

[QUOTE=Optimist;2171449]Ahh. That is the rub. Even she cannot stop the natural order of things LOL.

As you say, sometimes even dogs are better companions than spouses :)

Arigato[/QUOTE]Oops. This reads wrong. The two statements whilst correct are totally unrelated except insofaras they are replies to Mr Ho, from the land I will soon visit.

[QUOTE=JimmyBoy99;2171369]The traditional, standard, Christian wedding vow (I don't know about Jewish or Muslim wedding vows) includes a phrase like "forsaking all others, to be faithful only to him / her as long as you both shall live". The intent at the begining of the marriage, based on their vows, is to be exclusive sexual partners. What they decide to do freely and without coercion after that is their business. However, when one of them decides secretly not to keep the vow, it is by definition cheating and dishonest, no matter how many married men visit hookers.

[/QUOTE]Let's don't forget you are on prostitute board. You better don't talk about moral issues on women here because for you using prostitutes itself is against Christian morality and value whether you are single or married (and don't even mention other moral standards in society like social civilization). Is it moral to do anal sex, CIM and other perverted sex acts on prostitutes.

[QUOTE=Bfsie;2171556] Is it moral to do anal sex, CIM and other perverted sex acts on prostitutes?[/QUOTE]Yes, although I've not the possibility to confess my sins as others may have. By the way, is it more moral to do the mentioned features together with one's wife?

Love and sex are neither necessarily bound nor opposite, and relationships are grey and changing. And everyone is different. The Brady Bunch is great if you have it, but for various reasons a single 1:1 relationship is not enough or needs some healthy space. Hookers are also in a gray space. They too have feelings and do not necessarily sleep with anyone with enough $$. Emotional needs, like diet, should have some staple but also variety, like friends and lovers.

Let's not project our provisional reality on others. I like to see myself in a girls mouth with her lips stretched and the wonderful feeling off shooting deep in her mouth. It is natural, harmless fun and been going on since the dawn of man.

[QUOTE=PahllusMaximus;2171612]Love and sex are neither necessarily bound nor opposite, and relationships are grey and changing. And everyone is different. The Brady Bunch is great if you have it, but for various reasons a single 1:1 relationship is not enough or needs some healthy space. Hookers are also in a gray space. They too have feelings and do not necessarily sleep with anyone with enough $$. Emotional needs, like diet, should have some staple but also variety, like friends and lovers.

Let's not project our provisional reality on others. I like to see myself in a girls mouth with her lips stretched and the wonderful feeling off shooting deep in her mouth. It is natural, harmless fun and been going on since the dawn of man.[/QUOTE]Yes, it is each their own, it is just that some guys have bad taste on women, they like old aged women. , they call it love LOL.

Just curious, my theory anyways, for those of you that prefer to be single and enjoy this hobby have you ever been in love? Have you ever love someone so much that you want to be better for her? I can assume those that are / were married were at this stage at one point and would prefer a companion (unless they had a bad divorce).

Optimist, you are my role model. I don't think there are such a normal girl, young, who would allow her man to visit a brothel, spend time and money with another girls, and feel nothing about it. The odd of finding this girl is almost zero. But the chance of finding this girl is higher, in FKK, LOL. I even joked with someone very close to me and she said she would allow her BF or husband to visit the club, maybe once a year on his BD.

[QUOTE=JimmyBoy99;2171369]The traditional, standard, Christian wedding vow (I don't know about Jewish or Muslim wedding vows) includes a phrase like "forsaking all others, to be faithful only to him / her as long as you both shall live". The intent at the begining of the marriage, based on their vows, is to be exclusive sexual partners. [/QUOTE]It depends. I guess you are assuming that Optimist had a Christian wedding and that it was furthermore one of the Christian sects that favors monogamy over polygamy. If it was a Mormon sealing ceremony, the wife would have had to make a vow with all of her new sister wives, not just the husband. Many Mormon elders have promoted the idea that Jesus himself was a polygamist ([URL]https://ldstalk.files.wordpress.com/2007/07/img_03291.jpg[/URL]). But I am guessing he was too busy with other things (like protecting unregistered WGs from stoning) for the time-consuming business of marriage.

Not so Mohammed, who had more wives than cats. That is taking commitment to the ninth degree! Whatever you may think of the man's political views, you have to admire his stamina. Just imagine all the nagging!

Meanwhile the King of Swaziland, a devout Christian, said "Hold my beer," and married fifteen women. Impressive but will he still be that prolific at Optimist's age?

It looks like the Mormons and Muslims attracted a great following in the beginning by allowing polygamy. After they had got enough drone members they tightened the rules, restricted the perks. Not so different from the customer base of FKK Land. Boiling the frog!

Il al-liqā, Master Jimmy!

BadinSweet. I am no role model. I will do a PM with a little background as to how I got to this situation. Your joke is a bit closer to the truth than you would guess! There are quite a few German guys whose partners agree to them visiting clubs on a specified basis, like once a month for example

Polyamorist. I love your informed, entertaining and eclectic posts. Another religion, Buddhism allows anything, provided it is in accord with the precepts. This means that, depending on the circumstances one can even have sex with a multitude of women (although this would normally be stopped by the precept not to misuse sexuality). One Zen Master was called the Fuck Master because he sought enlightenment by fucking women: I think probably he was just a con artist.

Just to repeat. Everybody is different and nobody can prescribe for others (apart from certain universally agreed norms, like normally not to murder) All marriages are within a social convention which varies over time and place. No way can anybody reasonably say on this Forum should be bound by any particular ephemeral so-called "religious" convention. If anyone argues that I should be bound by Christian wedding vows then I would argue that they in turn must be bound by my interpretation of Buddhist precepts and not to eat meat LOL.

The buddhist Fuck Master sounds like a smart guy. I subscribe to his view of enlightenment. Does he hold any ceremonies perhaps? LOL! .

[QUOTE=Takedown;2171310]I don't think monogamists believe that one deep connection rules out all other deep connections. It just in some ways makes it less complicated.

Some of it is a matter of resource allocation. A lifetime spent with one single person would naturally lead to a very deep intimate knowledge. The more you divide your time, the more diluted the product. Not to say that you can't have meaningful more diluted relationships. Some may be more capable than others of dividing attention. Some may not be able to do it at all. Not all people are built to be polyamorous.[/QUOTE]As mentionned before, it depends on the oxytocin:

Only three percent of mammals are monogamous. Among those three percent are the prairie voles, especially known for their monogamous behavior.

In female prairie voles, oxytocin is the key ingredient for finding a lifelong partner. When mating, a flood of oxytocin is released, which then triggers the flood of dopamine, allowing feelings of reward to take over the female's brain circuitry. This whole process allows the female to attach to her mate and desire a lifelong partnership.

If oxytocin receptors were to be blocked, however, it can cut off the pair bonding response and eliminate the desire for monogamy completely. Similarly, when male prairie voles were given a drug that suppresses the effect of vasopressin, the bond with their partner deteriorated immediately as they lost their devotion and failed to protect their partner from new suitors.

Because these hormones are independent from one another, these three systems can work simultaneously and with dangerous results.

"You can feel deep attachment for a long-term spouse, while you feel romantic love for someone else, while you feel the sex drive in situations unrelated to either partner," as Dr. Fisher explains. This independence means it is possible to love more than one person at a time, a situation that leads to jealousy, adultery, divorce, and the possibilities of promiscuity and polygamy, with the likelihood of extra children, and thus a bigger stake in the genetic future. We were not built to be happy, but to reproduce.

Dr. Fisher continues, "The independence of these emotional systems may have evolved among our ancestors to enable males and females to take advantage of several mating strategies simultaneously. With this brain architecture, they could form a pair bond with one partner and practice clandestine adultery too, thereby taking advantage of rare "extra" mating opportunities."

Dr. Steven Phelps, Integrative Biology PhD, found great diversity in the distribution of vasopressin receptors between individual prairie voles. Phelps suggests that this variation contributes to some voles being more faithful than others.

Meanwhile, Dr. Young says that he and his colleagues have found a lot of variation in the vasopressin-receptor gene in humans. "We may be able to do things like look at their gene sequence, look at their promoter sequence, to genotype people and correlate that with their fidelity," he contemplates.

It has already proved possible to tinker with this genetic inheritance, with startling results. Scientists can increase the expression of the relevant receptors in prairie voles, and thus strengthen the animals' ability to attach to partners. And in 1999, Dr. Young led a team that took the prairie-vole receptor gene and inserted it into an ordinary (and therefore promiscuous) mouse. The transgenic mouse thus created was much more sociable to its mate.

[URL]https://www.ambiancematchmaking.com/blog/2015/8/6/until-death-do-us-part[/URL]

Also a very interesting study:

Memory response to oxytocin predicts relationship dissolution over 18 months.

[URL]https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/26986091/[/URL]

[QUOTE=Takedown;2170205]I don't discount that some people can forgoe companionship in favor of a life of satisfying sex with professional stunner women but those people are in an extreme minority. The rest of us are wired to seek companionship.
[/QUOTE]Amongst hardcore monger population, I'the agree with your assessment. Amongst more casual monger population, companionship is of minimal importance. The sheer volume of 10-15 minute commercial transactions speaks to that (at Laufhaus and Turksh FKK clubs). I suspect these casual mongers are wired to seek companionship as well, but from their wives and GFs, not from WGs.

[QUOTE=Takedown;2170205]
All of this being said, companionship can be bought and that person can develop real emotions over time. Women in my family have who married much older men for security did eventually develop a version of love for their geriatric provider.[/QUOTE]Like you say it is a different form of love. More characterized by an appreciation for a sponsor than society's ideal of romantic love. Success rate of these "mail-order-bride" relationships seem to be high only when the women is 40+ with kids from a previous relationship.

[QUOTE=Takedown;2170205]Mongering is mongering and companionship is companionship. Perhaps some people don't want companionship; that is a personal decision but it would be wise to make sure that one is honest with himself before making that decision. I don't discount that some people can forgoe companionship in favor of a life of satisfying sex with professional stunner women but those people are in an extreme minority. The rest of us are wired to seek companionship. So if you are in the minority of people who can truly and I mean truly commit to a promongering but companionless life then I salute your individual composition. For most people who deep down desire companionship, I think it would be a miserable and pathetic existence to only pay for sex week (end) in and week (end) out.

I may not be as sexually interested in the same woman 10 years from now but I do want children and for my children to have a mother.

All of this is pretty simple common knowledge right? For most of us, it would be a good idea to not tell ourselves lies about what we desire from women, life, and this hobby.

All of this being said, companionship can be bought and that person can develop real emotions over time. Women in my family have who married much older men for security did eventually develop a version of love for their geriatric provider.[/QUOTE]P6 in Germany is just so or too easy but it is just sex nothing more which is quite boring now for me like for many other mongers, after being with 500 + girls it is just always the same mechanical sex. It was a very nice time of my life but definitively I am moving to something far better now with a stable relationship.

[QUOTE=McAdonis;2172062]Amongst hardcore monger population, I'the agree with your assessment. Amongst more casual monger population, companionship is of minimal importance. The sheer volume of 10-15 minute commercial transactions speaks to that (at Laufhaus and Turksh FKK clubs). I suspect these casual mongers are wired to seek companionship as well, but from their wives and GFs, not from WGs.

Like you say it is a different form of love. More characterized by an appreciation for a sponsor than society's ideal of romantic love. Success rate of these "mail-order-bride" relationships seem to be high only when the women is 40+ with kids from a previous relationship.[/QUOTE]Regarding the discussion, I meant it as companionship in life in general, not just from a monger to WG interaction. The discussion originated from Ho's assertion that "everyone here agrees" that a life as a hardcore monger is better than growing old with a single woman. Others here seek a molecular theory to discount the need for companionship, but that is just a matter of perspective. As in, do you choose to look at life from the human perspective, top-down, or from a molecular perspective, bottom up. I for one choose to believe that just because there is molecular explanation for something such as feelings of love and intimacy, it does not make it any less important. In fact thinking anything bottom up tends to make one a social weirdo.

True regarding sponsor love. But if I'm 80 and not married, sponsor love is better than dying alone with only hookers to buy hourly "love."

[QUOTE=McAdonis;2172062]Amongst hardcore monger population, I'the agree with your assessment. Amongst more casual monger population, companionship is of minimal importance. The sheer volume of 10-15 minute commercial transactions speaks to that (at Laufhaus and Turksh FKK clubs). I suspect these casual mongers are wired to seek companionship as well, but from their wives and GFs, not from WGs.

Like you say it is a different form of love. More characterized by an appreciation for a sponsor than society's ideal of romantic love. Success rate of these "mail-order-bride" relationships seem to be high only when the women is 40+ with kids from a previous relationship.[/QUOTE]I remember reading a sociology or psychology book many years back that described the three phases for women's choices of men. If I recall right, it was something like procreation (picking a more dominate male to ensure stronger children), security (including physical and financial) and companionship. As explained, these phases typically occurred in this order. Sometimes a single man provided all three phases but often the woman changed men as she progressed through the phases.

[QUOTE=Takedown;2169974]
But in western societies, dual income households have become the norm so the expenses are becoming more and more equally shared. I'm in the 30-40 age range and plenty of women in my generation are earning 6 figure incomes.[/QUOTE]Gen-X and Gen-why is anybody born between 1965 and 1994. Within this age bracket in USA, 44% of the millionaires are female.

[URL]https://www.fidelity.com/about-fidelity/institutional-investment-management/todays-millionaires-differ[/URL]

The mens rights activists amongst us will probably assume these women amassed their wealth via divorce settlement or inheritance. There are no figures released that provide this type of insight. Unless all these female millionaires are married to mega-millionaires and billionaires, we have to assume that some lucky men will be smiling if and when they ever get their divorce settlement.

[QUOTE=BadinSweet;2171862]Just curious, my theory anyways, for those of you that prefer to be single and enjoy this hobby have you ever been in love? Have you ever love someone so much that you want to be better for her? I can assume those that are / were married were at this stage at one point and would prefer a companion (unless they had a bad divorce).

Optimist, you are my role model. I don't think there are such a normal girl, young, who would allow her man to visit a brothel, spend time and money with another girls, and feel nothing about it. The odd of finding this girl is almost zero. But the chance of finding this girl is higher, in FKK, LOL. I even joked with someone very close to me and she said she would allow her BF or husband to visit the club, maybe once a year on his BD.[/QUOTE]If you have a beautiful girlfriend who loves you, if you are able to take care of her, then she will ask you to take her. Women in love ask for sex, they don't have headache as long they love you, then no need to go to brothel, better to have real sex at home, with true feelings. I didn't know most beautiful Russian escorts and FKK land few years ago. Pleaure to have you woman who will to please you.

According to Thomas J. Stanley's book, "The Millionaire Next Door: The Surprising Secrets of America's Wealthy," only 20% of millionaires inherited their riches. The other 80% are what you'd call nouveau riche: first generation millionaires who earned their cash on their own. Many millionaires simply worked, saved and lived within their means to generate their wealth. Think accountants and managers: regular people going to work every day. Most millionaires didn't get their riches overnight when a rich relative died. They worked for the money.

Read more: 7 Millionaire Myths [URL]https://www.investopedia.com/financial-edge/0810/7-millionaire-myths.aspx[/URL]#ixzz5 Dj6 VJPqx.

So some math: take away the top 10% of each sex bracket, and you have 34 female millionaires per 46 male millionaires. Or 42.5% female newly rich to 57.5% male newly rich. Minus the married.

But according to this article, you see marriges being counted for:

[URL]https://www.cnbc.com/id/100865295[/URL]

About 15 percent of American millionaires are self-made women, BMO said, while the rest got their fortune from marriage or inheritance.

So if both sources are correct, then 27.5% of all american millionaires are women whom have married into wealth.

[QUOTE=McAdonis;2172121]Gen-X and Gen-why is anybody born between 1965 and 1994. Within this age bracket in USA, 44% of the millionaires are female.

[URL]https://www.fidelity.com/about-fidelity/institutional-investment-management/todays-millionaires-differ[/URL]

The mens rights activists amongst us will probably assume these women amassed their wealth via divorce settlement or inheritance. There are no figures released that provide this type of insight. Unless all these female millionaires are married to mega-millionaires and billionaires, we have to assume that some lucky men will be smiling if and when they ever get their divorce settlement.[/QUOTE]Men's rights activists?! That's a good one, LOL.

I think the Anglo Saxon, English speaking nations are probably most advanced on this axis. And I would go even further than your link. It takes a long time to accumulate a million bucks, so the women who are at that level today started a while ago. It is a lagging indicator in other words. With the exception of engineering and physical sciences, and perhaps finance and a few other fields, women are now leading in overall university enrollmemts. Their upward movement in wealth charts will be felt a decade or two out. See below, they now lead in medicine and law, 2 well paying professions in the US.

https://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2017/08/why-men-are-the-new-college-minority/536103/

https://news.aamc.org/press-releases/article/applicant-enrollment-2017/

https://abovethelaw.com/2018/03/there-are-now-more-women-in-law-school-than-ever-before/





Japan is definitely pretty behind. Their PM even desperately to push up female participation but w / very little success. I have personally never met a woman in the upper ranks of Japanese corporates, almost all of them are men. In fact, China is much better on this, in my non scientific personal survey.

When members here come from various countries, they naturally form views based own their experiences and biases. If you never see woman advancing in your work place or society, perhaps you assume they are retrograde everywhere.

I sas a photo of a Saudi Arabian conference this week. It was an auditorium 100% full of men, not a single woman was in the hall. The topic was womens rights! It is possible that when guys come here from S Arabia, or some such place where women are way way behind, they may have hard time believing any woman any where in the world can make some money on her own.

[QUOTE=Sirioja;2172128]If you have a beautiful girlfriend who loves you, if you are able to take care of her, then she will ask you to take her. Women in love ask for sex, they don't have headache as long they love you, then no need to go to brothel, better to have real sex at home, with true feelings. I didn't know most beautiful Russian escorts and FKK land few years ago. Pleaure to have you woman who will to please you.[/QUOTE]The thing is at brothels, they offer you what you wrote with many women who do not age as we change women as we choose depend on feeling of the day, brothel begin to provide you quantity of quality who do not age.

When brothel begin to offer what I just wrote with such an each access like FKK system. It was life changer for me. You can confirm what you want before you buy her too. I mean how amazing is that and you can have multiple of women who is at stunner level on display.

For me 2009 till 2015 ish was best year main FKK bar filled with stunners of varieties, but still now, I manage to find few stunner each time I go to FKK trip, so I cannot complain for my lust.

As for loved filled sex, I love it only at the beginning of relationship, let say first few months, then after I want to get out, this is same for FKK, when I find stunner, it is such an amazing feeling for first few sessions, then after while. I seek for new young stunners.

I like beautiful girls till around age 25 max, so FKK or related top quality set up with young quality girls I can change every few years serves me the best for what I want in my life in the area of sex life.

One thing I have to add to this conversation is that I work in healthcare and a lot of the woman hater, "hardcore monger for life" guys would probably change their tunes if they see what goes on in hospitals everyday. One of the saddest things to see in the world is an old man dying alone with no one at his bedside. Something to take heed.

[QUOTE=Pistons;2172131]
About 15 percent of American millionaires are self-made women, BMO said, while the rest got their fortune from marriage or inheritance.

So if both sources are correct, then 27.5% of all american millionaires are women whom have married into wealth.[/QUOTE]It would be better if you could find something with age demographics. Both Jnpr30 and I are making the point that women are closing the gap.

I believe I've read that most millionaires (70%) are baby boomers. Born between 1946 and 1964. I propose we should leave the baby-boomers out, because I don't think there are many of us who are looking for a 54 year old wife. I'd imagine that their target range would be Gen-X, Gen-Y, where according to a study 44% of millionaires are female.

[QUOTE=McAdonis;2172166]It would be better if you could find something with age demographics. Both Jnpr30 and I are making the point that women are closing the gap.

I believe I've read that most millionaires (70%) are baby boomers. Born between 1946 and 1964. I propose we should leave the baby-boomers out, because I don't think there are many of us who are looking for a 54 year old wife. I'd imagine that their target range would be Gen-X, Gen-Y, where according to a study 44% of millionaires are female.[/QUOTE]True, they are indeed closing the gap (the last article I linked pointed that out too). But more so in america and certain western European countries too I suspect than in the world as a whole.

[QUOTE=Takedown;2172152]One thing I have to add to this conversation is that I work in healthcare and a lot of the woman hater, "hardcore monger for life" guys would probably change their tunes if they see what goes on in hospitals everyday. One of the saddest things to see in the world is an old man dying alone with no one at his bedside. Something to take heed.[/QUOTE]Agree with what you say in general, as you would want someone to feel sad when you go.

But unrelated to your main point I don't understand this concept of women hating hardcore monger. On one hand, they hate women, but they want to be with women, have sex with them, kiss them etc? Can't even understand how that works. Even in a FKK, when a girl is rude to me or otherwise not nice, I am so turned off, I can't have sex with that girl anymore even if she is quite pretty. How does one hate women and yet kiss them or want to be with them?

To the point Pistons is making many men also got their millions from inheritance. Especially in developing countries where upward mobility is not yet strong, many rich people got their wealth mostly from inheritance.

[QUOTE=Takedown;2172152]One thing I have to add to this conversation is that I work in healthcare and a lot of the woman hater, "hardcore monger for life" guys would probably change their tunes if they see what goes on in hospitals everyday. One of the saddest things to see in the world is an old man dying alone with no one at his bedside. Something to take heed.[/QUOTE]I understand your prospective as I also work in healthcare, seeing people die everyday is very depressing, however that makes me also wants to be "hardcore monger" as I keep reminded how fragile and mortal we are on a daily basis, and life is so short. This makes me want to "f" as much girls as I can, different girls for sure, those few minutes inside the room, the dopamine inducing sexual tension during the act can for at least few minutes ease my mind and feel I'm living, and life is beautiful.

I think the best way to live is to have a partner for life, I don't argue against that, but having a single partner for life is to me against all rationality and a waste of life. The magic is finding a partner to live with and love forever while still being able to practice mongering, this is what I call a life.

So putting it in mathematics.

Mongering + zero partner= depressing.

Zero mongering + one partner only for life= Waste of life.

Moderate mongering + ture partner= a life worth living.

[QUOTE=MrHo;2172151]The thing is at brothels, they offer you what you wrote with many women who do not age as we change women as we choose depend on feeling of the day, brothel begin to provide you quantity of quality who do not age.

When brothel begin to offer what I just wrote with such an each access like FKK system. It was life changer for me. You can confirm what you want before you buy her too. I mean how amazing is that and you can have multiple of women who is at stunner level on display.

For me 2009 till 2015 ish was best year main FKK bar filled with stunners of varieties, but still now, I manage to find few stunner each time I go to FKK trip, so I cannot complain for my lust..[/QUOTE]Girls age faster in prostitution, being fucked whole days, than women in real life who stay more fresh, mainly in mind.

I was faithful to my real girlfriends, now as the worst guy according to others, I'm faithful to some escorts or FKK girls, meeting them weekly for months or years like busy Kate, going only with them, most often only 1 girl in 1 club, then no jealousy from her, no: You behave the same with others? I behave the same than in real life, and busiest prettiest come to repeat with me every week, when I don't go for a while, they ask when I will come? They don't make me wait because they know I don't like and they don't want I go with other girls.

I had great girls who were about 30 yo, some over like part timer Lena. Lat at PSR who made me drive a lot on August 2013, she would be more than 40 now and I'm pretty sure I would desire her for her charm and natural beauty.

In real life or in FKK land, I need beauty, I prefer to stay alone if I don't find a attractive girl, I don't need to have sex with a GND. Sometimes I don't find even at Globe or big Sharks, difficult for me to find pretty girls, then easy to make them will to please me, because I know a bit about women, I learned when I loved my girlfriends.

I'm not afraid about loneliness, I make my sports on my own and they are more important than brothels. Who could I take with me to kill oneself climbing Zoncolan or Mortirolo? But it s just my passion to try to perform a better climbing time. If not good, I go again as soon I recover. For free ride, security staff didn't want to let me go in la Grave, they said it s too dangerous to go alone without ARVA, I explained it s too dangerous to take somebody with me, so I prefer to go alone, I decided to go, I opened one run above Chancel lake, 2 other skiers followed when they saw me going, but when I started I didn't see and know what would happen, so better to be alone because we never know what may happen, if You lose grip and fall in rocks, ARVA won't help you, but in this passion, we know risks about rocks, avalanches, crevices, I'm very careful, I never had problems on free ride because I know better not to do a mistake when I alone, my accidents were when skiing bumps, losing control, and flying over, but we are ready for our personal passion, it s even impossible to resist to this drug. Many girls take cocaine, I need adrenaline. But single for risks.

Sports help in bed with girls. For those who try to control, when you exhaust them, then they lose control.

[QUOTE=Takedown;2172152]One thing I have to add to this conversation is that I work in healthcare and a lot of the woman hater, "hardcore monger for life" guys would probably change their tunes if they see what goes on in hospitals everyday. One of the saddest things to see in the world is an old man dying alone with no one at his bedside. Something to take heed.[/QUOTE]I do understand what you mean, but man up, I mean we born into this world and we leave this world alone, you are not going to walk into next life if such thing exist with someone, you go alone when you leave this world, what important is what you do between when you born and when you die.

Personally, I do not want to waste my life away with so called wife who is life killer. It is all great at beginning, but she age. I mean I never get these guys who claim fucking old women is great sex. I mean it must be fetish thing to fuck old women.

I like beautiful women that I can change throughout life than having ageing wife.

I am not going to marry so that someone can hold my hand when I die. I want to die in luxury hospital with good view ready to die because I know I lived great life filled with great travelling, fucking so many beautiful girls, ate amazing food since I born till I die and never had money problem or related big stress caused by the societal system.

It is what you do in between and not the last moment, when I die I can say I lived good life not wasting so much years of my life because of aging wife.

[QUOTE=Jnpr30;2172189]Agree with what you say in general, as you would want someone to feel sad when you go.

But unrelated to your main point I don't understand this concept of women hating hardcore monger. On one hand, they hate women, but they want to be with women, have sex with them, kiss them etc? Can't even understand how that works. Even in a FKK, when a girl is rude to me or otherwise not nice, I am so turned off, I can't have sex with that girl anymore even if she is quite pretty. How does one hate women and yet kiss them or want to be with them?

To the point Pistons is making many men also got their millions from inheritance. Especially in developing countries where upward mobility is not yet strong, many rich people got their wealth mostly from inheritance.[/QUOTE]With all the discussions on the morale, religious and animalistic viewpoints on sexuality of men and women, I'm surprised that nobody has mentioned pros and cons in relation to current events or activities observed within the clubs. I will take the pros side, and I'm speaking of positives, not the mongers and WGs.

First, my doctor tells me I should get 30 minutes of aerobic exercise at least three times per week. As a man of some years in the hobby, I'm not a quick pop. Doc didn't say the exercise couldn't happen on the same one or two days. Sex is about the only aerobic exercise I really enjoy. I view the WGs as doing a service to the elderly, helping me to maintain a higher level of health and happiness, if only I could convince my insurance company to pay.

I have even seen on multiple occasions, where men of even poorer health were taken into the clubs; about a year ago at GT, a month ago at YY and last weekend at LR. At GT, the elderly man on oxygen bottles was accompanied by a nurse. She arranged for the girl, the room and handled the financials. A friend of mine was selected for the room. She later told me the man's wish was to see a stunner, naked and playing with herself one last time. At YY I saw a man who had recently had bypass surgery, suffering heavily from adema. It was about all he could do to get up and down the stairs to the bar, but the WGs provided the motivation. At LR I witnessed a man who was visually impaired. He was helped around the club by a friend, the friend arranged the lady, helped get him to and from the room. I'm sure this man received some great benefits from his experience.

Concerning current events, I've been reading about the attack in Canada. The attacker posted his frustration about not being able to have sexual relations with any woman. He classified himself as a member of a group that refers to themselves as Involuntary Celebates, Incels for short. I can't help but think that availability to affordable, legal prostitution without a negative stigma being applied by the moral police, these so called Incels could be happy mongers. With this logic it's possible that prostitutes could be life savers, performing a service as critical as doctors, lawyers, police officers and politicians, often for the same referenced professionals previously listed.

Takedown. That end of life point is interesting. The correct way for leaving this world depends on whether or not the man is happy with his life. As always it depends on the individuals. All I can say is that being alone normally does not suit people in my experience (which is fairly significant). But being alone could suit some people

For me, I decided some time ago that I did not want to leave this world without meeting in as close a way as possible as many fine people as possible. So I changed my job, went to FKKS, and take holidays where one gets close to people. At the end I hope I can remember all the fine people I have met, including prostitutes, so even if physically alone I can have them with me. If anyone saw the film "Still Life" with Eddie Redmayne, the final scene sums this up in a way

Jnpr30. On the separate topic, as you are suggesting, it is all more complicated. Sometimes a person may cut themselves off from getting close to the opposite sex, and even be hostile, because they themselves want to be close but have been rejected. Always, it is hard to generalise. Such people will want sex but almost as an exercise in compensation or avoidance: maybe. Just a thought. Like you, I cannot go to a room with a girl who is hostile, rude, or indifferent

I have to agree with Jnpr on this one. I totally don't understand that concept. I have heard it before though, and I think it is more a misunderstanding of a mix of humor and the completely opposite of women hating. No monger would hate women and at the same time spend time and money on her. And if someone says for life, then that makes the argument even stronger. It sounds like an extreme oxymoron to me.

On the contrary, married unhappy men whos sex life has died out might be the women haters if they feel restrained from having sex at all. Like locked in a jail with a chastity belt. And perhaps some posters in here have been in that situation once, but now feel liberated because they broke up an unhappy marrige. Many people just jump into marriage too soon. A woman might want to know the guy first, while the guy wants to have sex first and then know her afterwards if sexual chemistry fits. Both needs to work out past the 18 months, and not just one of them.

I have personally found fkks to be quite revealing in finding out how long I manage to sense great chemistry with different girls. Or types of girls, both personality wise and sexually. Although it has to be said that intra-FKK-drama of various kinds messes up this little study of mine a bit too often. Perhaps everyone should have the same experience with hundreds of girls before settling with one. (Just too bad most FKK girls have boyfriends LOL). Or perhaps some mongers currently feel satisfied with the exploration part. We might just be different also in focusing on the journey instead of the end goal, or counter clockwise. And some may change attitudes 180 after a few years also. But I would restrain from teaching anyone what their main goals in life has to be. That is always the works of destructive cults. Or how they begin. By using the broad meaning of the word cult, which encompasses statehood, religions, cultures etc etc. Or anything non-liberal, non-enlightenment. Another dark-ages so to speak. Another Mao.

At the very least a generalizing term such as 'women' seems odd to be hating. Maybe you hate one person in particular as a monger, but not the entire 50% of the human race. That just doesn't make sense.

Perhaps the topic also sometimes touches on humor in a chauvinistic and exaggerated form. And as a satire of current (political and religious) paradigms. But I don't think any human is a woman hating monger for life. Or even woman hater at all.

The idea of the end of life achievement summed up in monetary and biological net worth at the end of ones timespan is a philosophical matter more than anything. There are counter arguments like the guy comparing life to an mmo said: 'we don't know what happens after death. Some people think we get play through the best parts of life on a special map once you are done'. If so, the journey is way more important than your end net worth. The end net worth idea biologically is probably a result of reproductive instincs. But when it comes to the journey, the company of someone you have great chemistry with is beyone a doubt alpha omega. Ironically that also includes friends, and doesn't need to include the other sex. But it is probably better when it does, as the other sex can also make one sexually satisfied.

I would assume that the objective of any reader who is interested in this topic is to make his quality of life as high as possible during his lifetime until the end, so there is a life strategy involved here.

If you want to have child / children, you probably don't have much choice except seeking a companionship to have kid (s) and for the kid (s) maybe you have to stick to the companions for long time to come. If you don't want kid (s), I think you should only look for companionship with love (or at least strong affection), not look for the companions just for the purpose of companionship until later in your life when you need companions because of your health reasons. The reason is that if you seek companionship too early (say in your 30's or 40's) for the purpose of taking care of you in your 70's or 80's until death, you and your companions could grow apart and get separated (or divorced) before you need companions because of your health reason (say in your 70's or 80's), so you could end up to be singles again when you really need companions for your health in your 70's or 80's (actually the chance is pretty high because of your mongering lifestyle).

So I think that it is much better to seek companionship not long before you really need it for your health reason. Timing is important here. For now if you are still relatively young and healthy and don't want kid (s), I think that you should seek companions with love (or affection) whether in real life or in FKKs, while mongering in FKK clubs.

Folks, I tried to search for info on this here- but failed. So my question is: How do you folks assess the risk of serious infections with various sorts of sex in German FKK Clubs? - I post it here, because I think the risk in 3rd world counties like India or Ghana. Maybe quite different.

Especially interested in the:

Risk of DFK.

Risk of BBBJ.

Risk of uncovered vaginal penetration.

Uncovered vaginal sex: say Hello, to gonorrhoea and chlamydia.

DFK: you can catch a flu.

BBBJ: everyone knows it's totally forbidden! I think the risks are very low. Never met a guy who got something by a BJ. Maybe after some anal rimming you could get some urinary infection.

[QUOTE=Kuni042;2172333]Especially interested in the:

Risk of DFK.

Risk of BBBJ.

Risk of uncovered vaginal penetration.[/QUOTE]Tl; dr there is no simple answer.

I myself think BBBJ is fine, the others are way to risky for me.

You choose what suits you.

Not all STI / STD are created equal (or evolved whatever floats your boat).

Lets talk about some of the STI.

I will group them in a way I see fit.

(N. Be I am writing the names on top of my head, so many spelling mistakes, and always check information behind an internet post).

You have the very easily curable bacterial infections;.

Class A.

1.) Nessieria Gonorrhea.

2.) Chlymedia trachomatis.

3) Mycoplasma homonis.

4.) Ureaplasma.

5.) Hemophiluis decryi.

6.) Dovoinosis.

7.) Tricihomonas vaginalis (actually a parasite not a bacterial).

-All those mentioned above can be easily cured with simple antibiotics.

-all of them have the potential to cause complications but nevertheless in a developed country with good health system those bacteria usually pose no major harm.

-also there is some rare strains that need more aggresive antibiotics but those are rare.

-most of them can be acquired by vaginal / anal sex.

- the most notable exceptions are the first two which can be also be transmitted by BBBJ.

-Anyways if treated, those infection disappear and not come back unless re-infected again.

-In conclusion I myself think those infections are weak and not much of a worry.

Lets move on.

Class b.

1.) Syphillis (caused by Trepona Palliduim).

-This baceria if not treated can be a big trouble to the body, it can cause on the long term if not treeated (10 years+) major life threatning complications, such as Aortitis / Dementia / Tabes Dorsalis / nephrotic syndrome and ultimalty renal failure / and and and.

- It intially causes painless ulcer on the genetlia, so never ignore a painless ulcer and always visit a dr for that.

-The baceria can be easily cured if treated early, even the now considered pencillin can easily kill that bug.

- It is transmitted by vaginal / Anal.

Skin to skin contact.

I think it has the potential to be transmitted in BBBJ if an ulcer is.

Present in a WG lips.

- I highly recommend everyone screens for this bug like once a year, because to recap, its very easily cured early, however if left lingering in the body it can be deadly.

Lets move on.

Class see, the ectoparasite.

1.) Examples: Crab / Lice / Scabies.

-I'm not that familiar with those parasites to be honest.

- transmitted during skin contact in vaginal / anal.

- NO BBBJ transmission.

- No need to screen for them.

- Although iffy in there nature, its a meh, and not a seriois infection.

And they are highly curable.

Lets talk about the viruses.

Class the.

The only exception to what happens in Vegas always stays in Vegas because that ***** will always comes back after Vegas.

1.) Herpes Simplex virus 1 and 2 (aka HSV).

- This virus is quite common in the population, around 50-70% of the population have it (depends on geography).

-Traditionally HSV 1 is transmitted by kissing and HSV 2 by sex, however as society norms changed, and oral sex became more popular, the 2 viruses can occur in either kissing or sex,.

- Usually its a stigma and annoyance only, with recurrent outbreaks (canker sores) from time to time.

- Some lucky people have it but never develop outbreaks.

- Sadly this **** is transmitted by our beloved BBBJ and Vaginal / anal and even mere kissing (HSV1).

-No good screen for it in the lab.

- There is treatment (acyclovir) which only decrease duration but it doesn't eradicate the virus.

- the only way to avoid it, is to avoid any sexual practice and even normal kissing.

- If you can't avoid sexual practice, then as a non-scientific home remedy my only advise is to avoid a contact with a WG with an obviois lip herpes. Although a transmission can occur even without the presence of an ulcer. Thats the least you can try to avoid it.

- sorry this virus is always a risk in an FKK, and no mean can stop it.

Class E.

1.) Human Papilloma virus.

- this virus is usually transmitted by skin to skin contact, and also not very common but also not rare it can be in BBBJ.

-This virus has many strains.

- Some strains are benign and only cause warts, which are super ugly and a stigma, but it can be treated, and it can disappear by itself with time.

- Some strains are malignant and are a major risk for cervical cancer worldwide, so I urge any monger who is married to ask his wife to screen for cervical cancer by Pap smear, very important screening tool. The malignant types can rarely cause penile cancer but its so rare so no need to panic.

- Intrestingly this virus is the major threat to our DATY as it can cause larynx cancer but again that rare, so don't sweat it, but don't ignore it either a fact is a fact.

Class X.

The 3 very dangerous viruses.

1.) HIV.

2.) Hepatitis b.

3.) Hepatitis c.

- I'm not going to write about them as most people are well educated about their risk, transmission, diagnosis and treatment.

- The only good thing about them that they pose little to no risk for a monger getting a BBBJ.

- Avoiding vaginal / anal unprotected is the greatest measure to limit the risks.

That ends it. That's a brief summary about some of the risks.

I am sorry for the countless spelling mistakes.

Your concern is quite understandable. And the answer is crystal clear. DFK, BBBJ, DATY, and uncovered vaginal penetration is undoubtedly all highly risky. Especially uncovered vaginal penetration is out of question. Let's face it. Please don't you ever do that. Considering the number of daily sexual intercourses conducted at FKK all through Germany, you should be understanding the very basic rule. That is always use condom and avoid DFK, BBBJ and DATY. It's not the money you should be concerned with but the risk you're taking through your "hobby". If you're so into GFE and shit, go to check blood test every 3 months. At least you should be knowing how widely STD are spread through Germany right now. More than 100 thousands of people have STD in Germany. Google them. Don't risk your life by gambling. Later on you'd realize the price you paid is extremely high.

Once again go take blood test. Good luck.

[QUOTE=Kuni042;2172333]Folks, I tried to search for info on this here- but failed. So my question is: How do you folks assess the risk of serious infections with various sorts of sex in German FKK Clubs? - I post it here, because I think the risk in 3rd world counties like India or Ghana. Maybe quite different.

Especially interested in the:

Risk of DFK.

Risk of BBBJ.

Risk of uncovered vaginal penetration.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=Kuni042;2172333]Folks, I tried to search for info on this here- but failed. So my question is: How do you folks assess the risk of serious infections with various sorts of sex in German FKK Clubs? - I post it here, because I think the risk in 3rd world counties like India or Ghana. Maybe quite different.

Especially interested in the:

Risk of DFK.

Risk of BBBJ.

Risk of uncovered vaginal penetration.[/QUOTE]These issues have been discussed several times here. What you should look to evaluate the risk is to search for infections rate in the general population and multiply by a factor of 100 for potential infections rates in FKK. In my 4 year-long FKK experience, I have only caught gonorrhoea once and it was successfully treated with a course of antibiotics. I never have unprotected intercourse and I normally have CBJ with girls that have tongue piercing.

The rate of serious infections such as HIV, or syphyllis, I believe is still low in FKK if you don't have unprotected intercourse.

With DFK, unless the WG has bleeding gums or piercings, it is relatively safe. I don't normally bother with DFK as you may come after a client who has just exploded his cum into your girl's mouth.

With BBBJ, it is still relatively safe, but you may catch the usual chlamydia, herpes or gonorrhoea. However, rates for serious infections through BBBJ are very low. Unless you take part in gangbangs or similar.

With Bareback intercourse, infections rates increase a lot and you should not do it, if you are concerned about your health. Latex-free comdoms are almost as good as not wearng one, but they provide good protection.

I know some peole that carry some instant HIV tests for the escort they meet, but it seems a bit too much unless you find yourself in high risk areas such as SE Asia, Africa, Caribbean islands or Ukraine.

Stay safe and enjoy!

Rock.

I have one thing to add: YOLO, medically speaking of course.

[QUOTE=MythoVirus;2172351]Tl; dr there is no simple answer.

I myself think BBBJ is fine, the others are way to risky for me.

You choose what suits you.

Not all STI / STD are created equal (or evolved whatever floats your boat).

Lets talk about some of the STI.

I will group them in a way I see fit..[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=XXL;2170190]Whatever you think about luuv, girl-friendliness and "real" feelings, mark my words: very few hot women are worth having sex with 10 years on.

Even if she doesn't take you to the cleaners in the meantime, what will you do when your (common law) wive has downgraded from an 8 to a 5?
[/QUOTE]Not everyone sees things from the hardcore monger perspective. For us, fucking the hottest women possible is priority number one. Normal men can probably fuck a 5 who used to be an 8, and still obtain an erection and orgasm. Why? Because these men aren't addicted to porn or prostitutes.

Most normal men marry women of the same social circle and similar socio-economic background. That alone will reduce the likeliness that you are taken to the cleaners. Climbing the corporate ladder is all about knowing the right people. Having a "pedigree" wife helps you navigate that. I. e. Father-in-law, her university friends, or even people she meets at a wine-tasting.

[QUOTE=XXL;2170190]A woman after legal age in the West lasts about as long as a new car. Imagine you car is old and you're not even allowed to get rid of it to buy a new one.[/QUOTE]All things being equal I like younger WGs, but I also appreciate a MILF every once in a while. Late-30's, maybe even mid-40's. I would rather have an old Porsche than a new Dacia.

[QUOTE=Kuni042;2172333]Folks, I tried to search for info on this here- but failed. So my question is: How do you folks assess the risk of serious infections with various sorts of sex in German FKK Clubs? - I post it here, because I think the risk in 3rd world counties like India or Ghana. Maybe quite different.

Especially interested in the:

Risk of DFK.

Risk of BBBJ.

Risk of uncovered vaginal penetration.[/QUOTE]I've had BBBJs for a decade in Germany, at an average rate of 5 times a week, not a single orally transmitted infection to report.

I also pass my tongue between the girls' asscheeks before intercourse. Here too, nothing to report.

I really think penetration is when it becomes risky and it also seems to be the opinions of most girls. Pathogens are very prude and conservative. They don't expect humans to bring mouth parts into contact with genitals so they infect fornication pathways less than they do normal intercourse.

[QUOTE=MythoVirus;2172351]

I am sorry for the countless spelling mistakes.[/QUOTE]Don't be. This was an awesome and readable description. The only caveat being, that I was more interested in real experiences than theoretical possibilities, which all sound frightening. Thanks so far for all the other experiences.

I think then so far: DFK is the safest. BBBJ. Forbidden anyway- the 2nd safest-- and anything else is to be avoided anyway.

[QUOTE=Jnpr30;2172189]
But unrelated to your main point I don't understand this concept of women hating hardcore monger. On one hand, they hate women, but they want to be with women, have sex with them, kiss them etc? Can't even understand how that works. [/QUOTE]Some mens rights activists only hate Western women, not necessarily all women.

The Toronto attacker posted on social media that he wanted to "overthrow all the Chads and Stacys". Chad refers to the dumb jock, captain of the football team. Stacy refers to the cheerleader prom queen. In other words, the pinnacles of the mating pool. Nerds could work hard and get ahead later in life, at which point, they would be able to woo girls with not their looks but with promises of financial security.

Back when America was great, there was a balance of power between the sexes. Men held the cards when it came to money. Women held the cards with their sexuality. But now the feminist agenda has taken over. Women are earning almost equal pay. Men no longer hold any advantage. Any male who is not a "Chad" should turn their back on Western society and refuse to be a pawn. That could mean (1) abstaining from women (2) seeking out prostitutes or (3) moving to country that has traditional values.

[QUOTE=Kuni042;2172508]Don't be. This was an awesome and readable description. The only caveat being, that I was more interested in real experiences than theoretical possibilities, which all sound frightening. Thanks so far for all the other experiences.

I think then so far: DFK is the safest. BBBJ. Forbidden anyway- the 2nd safest-- and anything else is to be avoided anyway.[/QUOTE]No problem, glad if it helped you even a bit.

Regarding more practical sex safety.

The safest from top to down strictly in regard to STI.

Zero Risk the safest.

-Abstien from sex.

OCD safe zone.

- Handjob only / Titfuck / Feet stuff.

Very Safe zone.

- DFK / DATY / DATO.

- Covered BJ.

Quite Safe zone.

- BBBJ.

- Covered Vaginal.

- Covered Anal.

Mild Risk zone.

- Vagina.

Very Risky zone.

- Anal.

Some thoughts,

-The reason why I consider BBBJ safer than covered sex, is because covered sex always have the potential of a malfunctioned condom, ie it was broken, or it was not correctly used (for example I saw many WG don't roll the condom on the penis, they just crazy stretch it and fit the penis in, which I think can pose risk for STI).

-The list risk was based on STI only, it doesn't take into consideration of other infections, for example in some seasons, some nasty airborne viruses can be spread by DFK such as Corona Virus / New strain of Flu / Sars, so in that regard a BBBJ only can be safer than DFK and so on.

I'm currently staying at the quite safe zone, and its working for me, but again there is no correct answer, how far you want to risk something depends on you personally.

[QUOTE=McAdonis;2172499]All things being equal I like younger WGs, but I also appreciate a MILF every once in a while. Late-30's, maybe even mid-40's. I would rather have an old Porsche than a new Dacia.[/QUOTE]True story folks. We're talking Porsches built in the 70's guys.

[QUOTE=Sirioja;2172216]I'm not afraid about loneliness, I make my sports on my own and they are more important than brothels. Who could I take with me to kill oneself climbing Zoncolan or Mortirolo? But it s just my passion to try to perform a better climbing time. If not good, I go again as soon I recover. For free ride, security staff didn't want to let me go in la Grave, they said it s too dangerous to go alone without ARVA, I explained it s too dangerous to take somebody with me, so I prefer to go alone, I decided to go, I opened one run above Chancel lake, 2 other skiers followed when they saw me going, but when I started I didn't see and know what would happen, so better to be alone because we never know what may happen, if You lose grip and fall in rocks, ARVA won't help you, but in this passion, we know risks about rocks, avalanches, crevices, I'm very careful, I never had problems on free ride because I know better not to do a mistake when I alone, my accidents were when skiing bumps, losing control, and flying over, but we are ready for our personal passion, it s even impossible to resist to this drug. Many girls take cocaine, I need adrenaline. But single for risks.

Sports help in bed with girls. For those who try to control, when you exhaust them, then they lose control.[/QUOTE]Siri, it is good that you enjoy sports so much on your own, it is important for man or anyone really to have things that one can enjoy on their own instead of depending on one single thing whether it is wife, girlfriend, friend or other activities.

I do sport, but I ski, run and work out that is where I stop, I do not need adrenaline, I just need orgasm, so for me mongering is hobby, I like fucking stunner beautiful girls from all over the world, filling up my book of sexual memories as much as I can while I am here.

[QUOTE=RockyV;2172410]I know some peole that carry some instant HIV tests for the escort they meet, but it seems a bit too much unless you find yourself in high risk areas such as SE Asia, Africa, Caribbean islands or Ukraine.

Stay safe and enjoy!

Rock.[/QUOTE]I did not know Ukraine has high HIV infection rate.

Bareback intercourse via anal is high risk, pussy intercourse is quite low still.

[QUOTE=HiroHirox;2172384]. At least you should be knowing how widely STD are spread through Germany right now. More than 100 thousands of people have STD in Germany.[/QUOTE]Where did you get this number from? From earlier discussions here and simple googling I thought it was well known that herpes in some form and maybe even genital warts were common in way over half the population. Although mostly these STD's are latent and doesn't show and signs of being there. Perhaps something like 80-90% of all sexually active people. So I believe your numbers should be over 50 million. Or do you rule out those two std's?

[QUOTE=Pistons;2172570]Where did you get this number from? From earlier discussions here and simple googling I thought it was well known that herpes in some form and maybe even genital warts were common in way over half the population. Although mostly these STD's are latent and doesn't show and signs of being there. Perhaps something like 80-90% of all sexually active people. So I believe your numbers should be over 50 million. Or do you rule out those two std's?[/QUOTE]STDs would be quite low except for the people who go to BB clubs and then frequent the FKKs or drug users. That is why people who seek BB sex are generally shunned. They contaminate an otherwise pretty safe pool.

[QUOTE=MrHo;2172538]I did not know Ukraine has high HIV infection rate.
Bareback intercourse via anal is high risk, pussy intercourse is quite low still.[/QUOTE]Risk of HIV spread with vaginal BB is not low in heterosexuals; what you are referring to is risk of HIV spread via anal intercourse is in homosexuals not heterosexuals.

[QUOTE=Trombone;2172644]Risk of HIV spread with vaginal BB is not low in heterosexuals; what you are referring to is risk of HIV spread via anal intercourse is in homosexuals not heterosexuals.[/QUOTE]Well, in this case Ho is comparatively right.

Transmission rates per CDC:

1.40% with receptive Anal (1 in 74).

0.11% with insertive Anal (1 in 909).

0.08% with receptive vaginal (1 in 1,250) *penis to vagina.

0.04% with insertive vaginal (1 in 2,500) *vagina to penis.

[URL]https://www.cdc.gov/hiv/risk/estimates/riskbehaviors.html[/URL]

[QUOTE=Trombone;2172644]Risk of HIV spread with vaginal BB is not low in heterosexuals; what you are referring to is risk of HIV spread via anal intercourse is in homosexuals not heterosexuals.[/QUOTE]Anal intercourse BB risk to HIV is same for hetero and homo sexual, it is to do with dick getting cut in the ass and HIV virus going in via stomach.

I cannot be bothered to google the %, but pussy intercourse BB has rather low risk to getting HIV. HIV is hard to contract via normal sex, but in ass the highest.

Well it does not mean one should practice BB in FKK or related brothel.

Best bet for BB sex in pussy is porn star at home for me because they are all tested, so the risk is actually lower than normal tute who is not tested.

Artemis has in house medical doctor, but I wonder if the girls are tested regularly? They do go up and see the doctor sometimes, this I know, but I don't know what they do.

[QUOTE=Takedown;2172531]True story folks. We're talking Porsches built in the 70's guys.[/QUOTE]I agree with old Porsche, but I do not agree with older women LOL.

Plus Porsche Oil leak from old ones can be manage, but stinky gas leak from older women is not possible to manage LOL.

I mean there is something with women over age 30. They just kinda all carry strange odor or vibe to them, like vulgar vibe.

I like beautiful girls, I absorb them like a healing medicine LOL.

[QUOTE=Takedown;2172531]True story folks. We're talking Porsches built in the 70's guys.[/QUOTE]Haha. MILF consistently ranks as top five search term in many countries. Number #1 in USA ahead of "teen".

When speaking with hardcore mongers in clubs about MILFs less than 5% admit to even sessioning a girl mid-30's or over. I am talking about MILFs in this age range and actually look their age. Overwhelming majority are disgusted by the idea. Why the divergence between mongers and general masturbating age population?

[URL]https://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/internet/9927535/The-worlds-top-porn-search-terms-revealed.html[/URL]

[QUOTE=Takedown;2172447]I have one thing to add: YOLO, medically speaking of course.[/QUOTE]Exactly. My motto is live like there is no tomorrow while I am with tute, just do not put penis into anal of tute without condom LOL.

Vagina / Anal sex without condom is one thing I love about normal girls. In USA, this could lead to half of your financial asset LOL.

Any ways, live and let live, just do not put your penis into tutes anal without condom LOL.

If it is US porn we are talking about, the so called MILF is not particularly old most of the time. Sure, there are some really older women in porn as well. But many are classified as MILF just a few years after playing teens. Samantha Ryan came into the industry when she was around 23, and in a few years moved to MILF roles as she put on some weight. Jenni Lee was branded a milf in some scenes by the time she was in mid 20s but still very slim, gorgeous... I would love to fuck Milfs like that all day.

MILF or not, she doesn't look anything like Sylvana. Perhaps Silvana is not MILF but just old.

The porn men are generally so much older. Samantha Ryan did many scenes with her real life BF who was several years older than her. She became MILF in a few years but he did not become dilf or Filf or whatever is the equivalent. The men too become old, fat and look even more disgusting (than milfs) in a few years but as long as they can get it up (which they can these days, w / the help of chemicals) they can keep their "job". Porn is a closed industry; there must be thousands of young men who can fuck under lights / camera and with audience, but most are not trying out or not connected, and the older dudes stay in the industry way past their due date. Overall, there are far fewer men in porn than women. The men have long shelf life and keep going for a decade or more, but women have a few years on average. If a man can break into the industry when young, he can keep his job even after ballooning up like a Goodyear blimp but not so for women. Most of the audience for prom is still male, and that decides who works in the industry.

I don't know if I had a MILF fantasy when I was young. Now, I go for younger girls as most do in the clubs. Perhaps it a case of opposites attract. Aren't most men in the clubs older dudes? And people said Sylvana's clientele was disproportionately younger guys

There should be a sticky post or something with the STD probabilities, because this seems to be a recurring question. Some of the following repeats what I've posted before. Yes, I'm only addressing HIV here. It is by far the most common *fatal* STD that can't be cured, but only controlled. But the principles below can be used with other diseases too if you look up the base statistics.

In that regard what seems to be often forgotten is that you have to multiply the probability of transmission with the probability of encountering an infected partner. That calculation significantly lowers the overall probability.

HIV rate among female German sex workers = 0. 2% or 0. 002 (20 in 10,000).

See page 14: [URL]https://ecdc.europa.eu/sites/portal/files/media/en/publications/Publications/dublin-declaration-sex-workers.pdf[/URL].

HIV transmission rate for vaginal sex, female to male = 0. 04% or 0. 0004 (4 in 10,000).

[URL]https://www.cdc.gov/hiv/risk/estimates/riskbehaviors.html[/URL]

The probability of becoming infected via vaginal sex with a random sex worker in Germany.

= 0. 002 * 0. 0004 = 0. 0000008 = 0. 00008% (8 in 1,000,000).

To put that in perspective it's more likely you could flip a coin and get 20 heads in a row than contract HIV from a random sex worker in Germany.

Put another way, if you had vaginal sex every day for 20 years with a different random sex worker in Germany your probability of HIV infection would be 0. 00584.

[QUOTE=Neurosynth;2172961]There should be a sticky post or something with the STD probabilities, because this seems to be a recurring question. Some of the following repeats what I've posted before. Yes, I'm only addressing HIV here. It is by far the most common *fatal* STD that can't be cured, but only controlled. But the principles below can be used with other diseases too if you look up the base statistics.

In that regard what seems to be often forgotten is that you have to multiply the probability of transmission with the probability of encountering an infected partner. That calculation significantly lowers the overall probability.

HIV rate among female German sex workers = 0. 2% or 0. 002 (20 in 10,000).

See page 14: [URL]https://ecdc.europa.eu/sites/portal/files/media/en/publications/Publications/dublin-declaration-sex-workers.pdf[/URL].

HIV transmission rate for vaginal sex, female to male = 0. 04% or 0. 0004 (4 in 10,000).

[URL]https://www.cdc.gov/hiv/risk/estimates/riskbehaviors.html[/URL]

The probability of becoming infected via vaginal sex with a random sex worker in Germany.

= 0. 002 * 0. 0004 = 0. 0000008 = 0. 00008% (8 in 1,000,000).

To put that in perspective it's more likely you could flip a coin and get 20 heads in a row than contract HIV from a random sex worker in Germany.

Put another way, if you had vaginal sex every day for 20 years with a different random sex worker in Germany your probability of HIV infection would be 0. 00584.[/QUOTE]The probability calculations you have here are totally sound but not for all venues.

In an AO club, maybe the 0. 2% is more like 2. 0%, very low but higher than 0. 2%, or maybe lower since only streetwalkers come in higher than 0. 2%, not sure.

In a prominent FKK it is far lower than 0. 2%. But that 0. 2% assumption depends on the base, actually I would not be surprised if the AO clubs come in lower than 0. 2% for HIV. But if you are approach an IV drug using steetwalker than that is probably higher than the 0. 2% base, maybe all Sauna clubs are lower.

The risk is of course quite low, but while I am happy with BBBJ, I do not practice uncovered vaginal or anal sex, just because I have from my point of view, total peace of mind, I also have never contracted anything from BBBJ in over 10 years of receiving BBBJ, approx 100 times a year for a decade.

I would be more worried about that nasty strain of gonorrhea than HIV.

I think you made an omission, Neurosynth. Those statistics are for condomless vaginal intercourse. The vast, vast majority of sex acts at German FKKs involving vaginal intercourse has the customer wearing a condom. Also, customers at FKKs [url=http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord111][CodeWord111][/url] and shower after sex acts, and most of the literature involving transmission to men from vaginal sex, exclusive of tribal areas where the men routinely have cuts on the penis, suggest that the virus enters the bloodstream over several hours while the man sleeps next to the female without washing his penis after ejaculation. I think you need some more zeroes in front of your probabilities. As far as HIV is concerned as a fatality risk for a man at an FKK, he should be far more concerned about driving on the autobahn.

[QUOTE=Neurosynth;2172961]There should be a sticky post or something with the STD probabilities, because this seems to be a recurring question. Some of the following repeats what I've posted before. Yes, I'm only addressing HIV here. It is by far the most common *fatal* STD that can't be cured, but only controlled. But the principles below can be used with other diseases too if you look up the base statistics.

In that regard what seems to be often forgotten is that you have to multiply the probability of transmission with the probability of encountering an infected partner. That calculation significantly lowers the overall probability..[/QUOTE]

I believe Sylvana is GILF and not MILF. But in Japan, grandma porn is growing in popularity.

[QUOTE=Jnpr30;2172768]If it is US porn we are talking about, the so called MILF is not particularly old most of the time. Sure, there are some really older women in porn as well. But many are classified as MILF just a few years after playing teens. Samantha Ryan came into the industry when she was around 23, and in a few years moved to MILF roles as she put on some weight. Jenni Lee was branded a milf in some scenes by the time she was in mid 20s but still very slim, gorgeous... I would love to fuck Milfs like that all day.

MILF or not, she doesn't look anything like Sylvana. Perhaps Silvana is not MILF but just old.
[/QUOTE]My unofficial research went as follows. Found a link that told me Pornhub was the most trafficked porn site. Went to Pornhub which ranks the most popular porn stars for the current month. Six of top ten are between ages of 30-45. One is under 22. Then three mid-to-late 20's. Perhaps a few of them look younger than their actual age? You can be the judge.

According to WGs at Sharks, Sylvana is 63. So she's GILF territory.

[QUOTE=Jnpr30;2172768]
I don't know if I had a MILF fantasy when I was young. Now, I go for younger girls as most do in the clubs. Perhaps it a case of opposites attract. Aren't most men in the clubs older dudes? And people said Sylvana's clientele was disproportionately younger guys[/QUOTE]Fair point. I would assume majority of Pornhubs viewership are the teen-to-early 20's demographic (raging hormones and ample free time). However, I've asked the same question to multiple hardcore mongers before. They claim that their entire life, they have only been into girls who look 22 or younger. I believe this extends to the porn that they watch.

Pulled up Samantha Ryan and Jenni Lee, who are now 40 and 36 respectively. Apparently they are still active, so were you only fans of their early-work? Or are you also fans of the stuff they put out past the age of 35?

[QUOTE=McAdonis;2172995]My unofficial research went as follows. Found a link that told me Pornhub was the most trafficked porn site. Went to Pornhub which ranks the most popular porn stars for the current month. Six of top ten are between ages of 30-45. One is under 22. Then three mid-to-late 20's. Perhaps a few of them look younger than their actual age? You can be the judge.

According to WGs at Sharks, Sylvana is 63. So she's GILF territory.

Fair point. I would assume majority of Pornhubs viewership are the teen-to-early 20's demographic (raging hormones and ample free time). However, I've asked the same question to multiple hardcore mongers before. They claim that their entire life, they have only been into girls who look 22 or younger. I believe this extends to the porn that they watch.

Pulled up Samantha Ryan and Jenni Lee, who are now 40 and 36 respectively. Apparently they are still active, so were you only fans of their early-work? Or are you also fans of the stuff they put out past the age of 35?[/QUOTE]Oh wow, I would not have guessed the ages of Samantha Ryan and Jenni Leee, that's for sure. I have seen some newer vids off Samantha Ryan where she put on some weight, and she does not look appealing in them so I skip and seek the ones where she was much younger. Ditto with Jenni Lee. My current favorites like Alexa Grace, Elena Koshka, Lily Rader are all young and skinny girls.

I guess you could club me with those shallow mongers who prefer young, slim girls (also smaller natural tits in my case).

I had never checked out the popularity ranks on pornhub, but after seeing your post I did. Tops is Stormy Daniels, but she does not count at the moment for obvious reasons. I know the names and work of most of top 10. Some have retired I think (such as Sasha Grey; she was even in a mainstream movie called GFE). There are a few like Brandi Love -- she is annoyingly in most of these role play videos that are cropping up of late (guy fucks his GF and her step mom; that type). I notice many of these top 10 have big tits and while they were never personal favorites of mine (except Sasha Grey who I did like), it seems a lot of American guys dig big titty girls.

One theory can explain this top 10 is that several of them were considered good looking as younger porn stars (Nicole Aniston, Alexis Texas, Lisa Ann, even Mia Malkova etc have been around for a while), and their fans search and see their younger day vids -- not necessarily just their MILF work. The more vids a girl has, the more views she can get, and move up the chart. A true 22 year old takes a while before she has shot hundreds of videos, but some of these older girls have accumulated a large body of work. For example, I have not seen much of Lana Rhodes the one 22 year old on that top 10, she is quite new to me.

Still I can't explain how this group is the top 10 of this month. I don't know if this month's top 10 is particularly idiosyncratic and different, or if my countrymen really think these are the hottest porn stars (ye gods! But I at least partly agree with your theory that normal guys have some weird preference for MILFs when I see this top 10 bunch.

[QUOTE=Jnpr30;2172999] There are a few like Brandi Love -- she is annoyingly in most of these role play videos that are cropping up of late (guy fucks his GF and her step mom; that type)nd for a while)

or if my countrymen really think these are the hottest porn stars (ye gods! But I at least partly agree with your theory that normal guys have some weird preference for MILFs when I see this top 10 bunch.[/QUOTE]Jnpr,

I apologize and fear I am one of your guilty countrymen who fall for Brandi Love and a few like her (like Zoey Holloway and the Taboo Handjob series of step moms jerking off their sons.).

After my second to last trip to Oase after I could not cum in a condom once I purchased Brandi to help me.

[QUOTE=KosherKowboy;2151195]
The other day at HEB (Our Rewe) I purchased a 12 pack of extra thick Durex condoms, a bottle of lube and right now somewhere on a truck out for delivery is a Fleshlight molded to the shape of pornstar Brandi Love's vagina en route to my house.
[/QUOTE]She ended up being hidden in the garage after a few uses so my cleaning lady would not find her and I have yet to search for her. I think I know of that that video you reference, in this particular one she takes her stepsons virginity when she fucks him with that young 20 something dark haired girl.

Like the young 20 something Romanian girl with a tattoo on her lower back at Oase who goes by Anna or Ana that I roomed with last trip. Brandi did not properly prepare me for Anna and although Anna did a great job for 50 e and had a wonderful attitude she ended up having to resort to alternative methods other than covered sexual intercourse to get me off, one that often requires a donation of an extra 50 e.

I highly recommend Anna but as for Ms. Love she has not done a very good job.

The only issue I take with your post is that although I have weird preferences for MILFs I am not sure one could actually refer to myself as ' normal'.

Oops. Did n’t mean to call you weird KK. Actually I spoke too soon. Pornhub actually shows the rank history of those girls, and it is remarkably stable. Small fluctuations here and there, week to week and month2 month, but generally quite consistent.

I looked at another site copied below and it has a different top 10, only 3 are common w / Pornhub. However, I don't like even this list as well.

So, perhaps I am the weird one for liking young and skinny and small tit girls? Holy cow!

[URL]https://www.xvideos.com/pornstars-index/usa[/URL]

[QUOTE=Jnpr30;2173032]Oops. Did nt mean to call you weird KK. Actually I spoke too soon. Pornhub actually shows the rank history of those girls, and it is remarkably stable. Small fluctuations here and there, week to week and month2 month, but generally quite consistent.

I looked at another site copied below and it has a different top 10, only 3 are common w / Pornhub. However, I don't like even this list as well.

So, perhaps I am the weird one for liking young and skinny and small tit girls? Holy cow!

[URL]https://www.xvideos.com/pornstars-index/usa[/URL][/QUOTE]Jnpr,

I am in the same weird category. Silicon and oversized boobs turn me off. Oversized for me is see cup and higher. Small tits associate with youth and happiness. In my sick brain, that is, LOL. I also like beautiful feet and black laced stiletto sandals with no platform. I make girls buy them while shopping outside the club and fuck her wearing those shoes in hotel. In my book, weird is good LOL.

Marie MC cray, India summer, Jenni Lee, Samantha Ryan are labelled milfs and they're really hot. I always had a soft spot for Jenni Lee despite the boob job. Jelena Jensen looks still very good too.

[QUOTE=Jnpr30;2173032]Oops. Did nt mean to call you weird KK. Actually I spoke too soon. [/QUOTE]It is Ok to call me weird, I have been called much worse. And it was I who posted too soon. After posting I found Brandi hidden inside my kayak, took her out and washed her out to make sure she was fresh from prior ' vashings. ' I than hooked up my laptop to my television set and together we watched several videos of Mandy Flores (should check her out, she is a good one too) until it was time to vash Brandi. Overall Brandi did just fine last night, she let me AO / CIP and she did not upsell me or ask for a tip. She also gave me unlimited couch time.

Jnpr30, I didn't mean to suggest that normal men have a preference for MILFs. They just don't have an extreme aversion towards them. I doubt that there are men out there who are exclusively attracted to MILFs. That would just be strange. Evolutionally speaking, men should be attracted to women in the prime of their reproductive years.

I imagine that most Pornhubbers watch younger girls but every tenth video or so cycle in a MILF. My point is many hardcore mongers have told me that they have zero attraction to MILFs. They'd consider a 30 year old WG, only if she looked 25. That is a common sentiment. And some are more discriminatory only going with WGs that look younger than 22.

Pornhub shows most viewed videos for current week. Oddly they seem to be more amateur than brand name porn stars, but the word "Teen" appears in the title of many of the top videos: [URL]https://www.pornhub.com/video?o=mv[/URL].

Your statement about younger porn stars not having the body of work to obtain a top ranking made sense to me but then I looked at Pornhub's most subscribed pornstars. Presumably, this means that men want to be notified whenever new content is uploaded from their favorites. Porn stars in their mid-40's are still well represented here. Lisa Ann moves up to five. Brandi Love drops to ten. [URL]https://www.pornhub.com/pornstars?o=ms[/URL].

Lisa Ann has a reputation for hooking up with professional athletes. So these are men in their 20's with millions of dollars who could have as many younger beauties as they please [URL]https://www.gq.com/story/sex-athletes-nba-porn-star[/URL]

I am not into amateur porn, as it is such a hit and miss. But I think there is definitely a lot less taboo and more acceptance of porn in the whole American society now compared to 30 years ago. No one is ashamed to admit watching it, and it is understood that even most women watch it. And while porn stars especially porn women are still not treated like mainstream actresses, there is a lot less ostracism of them. Some like Sasha Grey have made transition to mainstream.

And most porn starlets do escorting on the side now. With porn economics massively on the decline, they are forced to supplement their income. Porn is how they get their brand established and then make money other ways.

I think the huge number of amateur starlets and their videos is explained by the revenue share from these sites to the content owners. Similar to Youtube sharing rev with Logan Paul and Pew Dee Pie. And given the reduced taboo in US about porn, if some girl is in financial dire streets, this is one way of making money. And as we all know, eventhough economy picked up in the last 10 years, so many are still left behind and doing pretty much whatever they need to make ends meet.

It is strange to see the disconnect between the laws and the ground reality. Prostitution is still illegal, but porn, porn stars escorting, sugar daddy sites, Craiglist, and so many things go on. The law is so far behind the actual society on this issue.

[QUOTE=Jnpr30;2173224]I am not into amateur porn, as it is such a hit and miss. But I think there is definitely a lot less taboo and more acceptance of porn in the whole American society now compared to 30 years ago. No one is ashamed to admit watching it, and it is understood that even most women watch it. And while porn stars especially porn women are still not treated like mainstream actresses, there is a lot less ostracism of them. Some like Sasha Grey have made transition to mainstream.

And most porn starlets do escorting on the side now. With porn economics massively on the decline, they are forced to supplement their income. Porn is how they get their brand established and then make money other ways.

I think the huge number of amateur starlets and their videos is explained by the revenue share from these sites to the content owners. Similar to Youtube sharing rev with Logan Paul and Pew Dee Pie. And given the reduced taboo in US about porn, if some girl is in financial dire streets, this is one way of making money. And as we all know, eventhough economy picked up in the last 10 years, so many are still left behind and doing pretty much whatever they need to make ends meet..[/QUOTE]Porn has never paid well for most girls. Even at the height of movies, most girls made their real money on the dance circuit. There is just too much stupid new talent entering. Plus, the industry is now world wide.

[QUOTE=Neurosynth;2172961]Put another way, if you had vaginal sex every day for 20 years with a different random sex worker in Germany your probability of HIV infection would be 0. 00584.[/QUOTE]I don't see a high risk for HIV in German P6 for mongers. BB or not. But there's many other nasty STDs around.

The people who managed to differentiate sugar daddies and escorts was a clever guy.

What do you think would happen if we started calling all of us for sugar daddies also?

It looks like with our passports we can stay in Germany for 90 days. I think (thought) the same goes for Spain however one article I read says different that you need a Schengen visa for a 90 day Spanish stay or for any country in that zone and beyond that you need a non working (think said non-lucrative) resident visa of some kind with the ability to show enough income from assets to not work yet support yourself. The requirement was not much, way beneath what any of us Americans making pilgrimages regularly either make per month now and / or make in income off assets such as dividends, bond coupon payments or property rental etc.

I think I also read you only get 90 days in the EU out of each 180 days. Does that mean if you go to the EU for 90 days and return to the USA on day 91 that you can not return to the EU for another 89 days? Does the ' clock reset' each time you return home. Are we capped at a certain number of days per annum?

It seems if you wanted to live every other month in Europe or every third month with return to the USA in between you could bounce back and forth in that pattern just using your passport.

Anyone know how all this works?

[QUOTE=RogueNation;2173259]I don't see a high risk for HIV in German P6 for mongers. BB or not. But there's many other nasty STDs around.[/QUOTE]Bacterial infections are easily treatable with various antibiotics.

Everyone hear has or has had the HPV and HSV virus so we're all dirty bastards. Antivirals treat herpes symptoms. HPV in men usually goes away on it's own but the risk of warts to cancer is present. Warts are generally treated with topical medication. As for cancer, you live long enough, you'll get cancer somehow.

That's why HIV is the only one of concern.

[QUOTE=KosherKowboy;2173314]It looks like with our passports we can stay in Germany for 90 days. I think (thought) the same goes for Spain however one article I read says different that you need a Schengen visa for a 90 day Spanish stay or for any country in that zone and beyond that you need a non working (think said non-lucrative) resident visa of some kind with the ability to show enough income from assets to not work yet support yourself. The requirement was not much, way beneath what any of us Americans making pilgrimages regularly either make per month now and / or make in income off assets such as dividends, bond coupon payments or property rental etc.

I think I also read you only get 90 days in the EU out of each 180 days. Does that mean if you go to the EU for 90 days and return to the USA on day 91 that you can not return to the EU for another 89 days? Does the ' clock reset' each time you return home. Are we capped at a certain number of days per annum?

It seems if you wanted to live every other month in Europe or every third month with return to the USA in between you could bounce back and forth in that pattern just using your passport.

Anyone know how all this works?[/QUOTE]It is indeed 90 days per 180 days and it's up to border patrol to sift through your passport and calculate the time. Obviously easier for them if you never leave and only have one entry stamp. You can also get a one year visa for each country if you apply though your US passport office. My mother did that in Germany and it was not a problem, you just have to show financial resources.

I also had multiple college friends who stayed past their allotted time and had no issues, obviously illegal but being American, officers in Western Europe are so lax. One friend cheated the system and reported his passport stolen around day 70 and got a replacement one in Paris. Fresh book, no stamps. He ended up staying 3 more months.

[QUOTE=KosherKowboy;2173314]Anyone know how all this works?[/QUOTE][URL]https://ec.europa.eu/home-affairs/what-we-do/policies/borders-and-visas/border-crossing_en[/URL]

That might help.

[QUOTE=KosherKowboy;2173314]
I think I also read you only get 90 days in the EU out of each 180 days. Does that mean if you go to the EU for 90 days and return to the USA on day 91 that you can not return to the EU for another 89 days?[/QUOTE]If you haven't exceeded the 90 day limit for the previous 180 days you'll be admitted, if not you'll be turned back.

From the ETIA site, "For short stay visits (less than 90 days within a period of 180 days), the visitors are exempted from obtaining a valid Schengen visa. ".

[URL]https://www.etiaseurope.eu/etias-requirements/american/germany/[/URL]

[QUOTE=KosherKowboy;2173314]
I think I also read you only get 90 days in the EU out of each 180 days. Does that mean if you go to the EU for 90 days and return to the USA on day 91 that you can not return to the EU for another 89 days? Does the ' clock reset' each time you return home. Are we capped at a certain number of days per annum?
[/QUOTE]It's a rolling calendar. Note: It does not magically reset on Dec. 31st. It also does not magically reset when you exit the Schengen area.

So, you just look back at the last 180 calendar days. During those previous 180 calendar days, your total number of days in the Schengen area cannot exceed 90 days.

Example: If you are in Spain 30 days and then, German 60 days (both countries are in the Schengen area), then you must stay away for another 90 days, before you can enter the Schengen area again on a tourist visa.

The days in the Schengen area can be nonconsecutive. You could theoretically spend every other day in the Schengen area and you would never exceed the 90 day limit (as long as you left for at least a full day every other day). This rule basically means that, as a tourist, you can spend a total of 6 months maximum per year period in the Schengen area, although not consecutively.

If you are retired, one easy way to stay longer than the tourist visa allows is to study German half time and get a student visa. For example, you could enroll in the Goethe Institute (or similar school) for 4 hours a day and get a student visa on that basis.

Note that this length of stay is related to the tax-residency rule. If you stay 183 days in a country you are a prima facie tax resident of that country. So be careful if you contrive to stay more than 6 months.

Takedown. You are right that European border controls have been relatively lax, but they are changing gradually as new computer programs are developed. Only two years ago it was easy for me (a EU citizen, non- Schengen) to enter, usually without the border police even opening my passport, now it is computer read every single time. And from the beginning of 2020 a whole new system is being introduced which will, I expect (I can find no hard information on the computer program which will be used), automatically record length of stays by US citizens. The current Schengen Information System program includes information on immigration and criminal records of some countries outside Schengen, and this could be extended as part of the 2020 changes

Bacterial infections. As you say, generally easy to treat, but antibiotic resistant gonorrhea is slowly spreading. Whilst it is still very rare in western Europe it is still something to be aware of. Cases have generally been linked to western european men who have had sex in South east Asia.

Myself I never have more than two beers paranoid about driving and police traps near FKKs late at night. However, casual chatting with girls often reveals their acceptance of a wider or better range of services after a drink or two. For example, it seems like they may enjoy more DATY, or DFK better when a bit drunk. Does anyone have a practical experience to prove? How much WG's behavior change (or not) with alcohol? What's the best strategy to convince a WG to buy her a drink in FKK? Asking these seemingly simple questions because most girls outright refuse proposals to buy them a drink before the room.

[QUOTE=SmokeLight;2173522]Myself I never have more than two beers paranoid about driving and police traps near FKKs late at night. However, casual chatting with girls often reveals their acceptance of a wider or better range of services after a drink or two. For example, it seems like they may enjoy more DATY, or DFK better when a bit drunk. Does anyone have a practical experience to prove? How much WG's behavior change (or not) with alcohol? What's the best strategy to convince a WG to buy her a drink in FKK? Asking these seemingly simple questions because most girls outright refuse proposals to buy them a drink before the room.[/QUOTE]My two cents: Girls are different and will act differently to alcohol. No clear answer. And gents are different.

On a personal note I find that alcohol has a bad effect on my senses, so the more sober I am the more aroused and excited I will be. In a FKK Club I am supersober. But that's just me.

Occasionly I have seen girls asked to leave the club when too drunk or loud. I have a feeling there are strict rules about girls and alcohol in a FKK club (except for on certain party nights). Which suits me fine.

If you want to find drunk girls in a p4 p setting, then visit the bars / night clubs of Spain. In particular on a Friday / Saturday night. The girls get a cut from girls' drinks. Sometimes alcohol can loosen it up. In my visit last year I remember a drunk girl at Club Urgell 150 in Barcelona asking to be spanked long and hard. Which was kind of fun. At other times alcohol just kills the senses making girls unfocused and boring. One of my sessions at Club Privee in Salou started promising but turned really awful due to too much alcohol (see my report last November).

IMHO nothing beats discussing sexual dreams and desires over a cup of tea with a FKK girl! :)

[QUOTE=Mongerer88;2172969]I think you made an omission, Neurosynth. Those statistics are for condomless vaginal intercourse. The vast, vast majority of sex acts at German FKKs involving vaginal intercourse has the customer wearing a condom. [/QUOTE]My intention was to calculate the HIV risk for guys interested in AO. Of course it's safer to use a condom. But many would look at these numbers and conclude that AO is "safe enough. ".

[QUOTE=RogueNation;2173259]I don't see a high risk for HIV in German P6 for mongers. BB or not. But there's many other nasty STDs around.[/QUOTE]HIV is of particular interest because it can't be cured, only controlled, and will still be potentially fatal. Most "nasty" STDs are treatable and properly treated not fatal.

Getting the girls drunk to make them put out more is an interesting strategy. Never tried it. A few times one of my ex favs explicitly asked me to buy her a drink prior to the session and I did, but she seemed to handle it well and was not too much worse for it, and I could not tell if the service changed perceptably. One thing I will caution: alcohol may have an adverse impact on your own arousal and performance. There have been such occasions for me in the clubs however in those instances, I was tired and needed a drink and knew that I could not finish anyway.

[QUOTE=SmokeLight;2173522]Myself I never have more than two beers paranoid about driving and police traps near FKKs late at night. However, casual chatting with girls often reveals their acceptance of a wider or better range of services after a drink or two. For example, it seems like they may enjoy more DATY, or DFK better when a bit drunk. Does anyone have a practical experience to prove? How much WG's behavior change (or not) with alcohol? What's the best strategy to convince a WG to buy her a drink in FKK? Asking these seemingly simple questions because most girls outright refuse proposals to buy them a drink before the room.[/QUOTE]Sometimes, when the session I begin, with some girls, I suspect these girls not just drinking, but taking some powder because way how they go crazy on you in room is fine by me, but it is abnormally aggressive, but such session is jack pot great one.

[QUOTE=Jnpr30;2173709]Getting the girls drunk to make them put out more is an interesting strategy. Never tried it. A few times one of my ex favs explicitly asked me to buy her a drink prior to the session and I did, but she seemed to handle it well and was not too much worse for it, and I could not tell if the service changed perceptably. One thing I will caution: alcohol may have an adverse impact on your own arousal and performance. There have been such occasions for me in the clubs however in those instances, I was tired and needed a drink and knew that I could not finish anyway.[/QUOTE]Shark and Jnpr.

Thanks for interesting thoughts. I almost never drink alcohol in clubs, but one day I got a glass of good Klsch instead of alcohol free Bitburger at Samya by bartender's mistake and had it before my next room. It felt pleasant and relaxing and I had an enjoyable finish in less then 30 minutes with Anna. Since then sometimes I take one beer earlier in the day few hours before driving the car. Stronger drinks degrade my performance.

I hear from girls "If I drink, I'll do X" where X can be anal, CIM, swallow, or ass spanking as Shark16 has described, and so on. Sometimes I hear "but I do this only with my boyfriend". So it got me thinking to get them something stronger than cola to see how things shake up in the room.

Lily DV Dusseldorf once jumped in the pool in the middle of January back in 2014 when she was drunk and had group sex with two guys afterwards. I liked her until she got silicon in early 2017. Carla Samya french kisses better after 5 euro Mexican beer that she likes.

[QUOTE=MrHo;2173713]Sometimes, when the session I begin, with some girls, I suspect these girls not just drinking, but taking some powder because way how they go crazy on you in room is fine by me, but it is abnormally aggressive, but such session is jack pot great one.[/QUOTE]Mr Ho,

Agree 100%, powder works magic on girls. I never do it, but if I know a girl took a line or two, crazy fucked up session is nearly guaranteed and not to be missed by a hardcore monger. Highly recommended LOL. But I want to experiment with drinks when I am back in Koeln late May / early June. Having WhatsApp chats with the girls and anticipation of good sex drives me crazy, counting days to get out of sex prison USA.

[QUOTE=KosherKowboy;2173016]I apologize and fear I am one of your guilty countrymen who fall for Brandi Love and a few like her (like Zoey Holloway and the Taboo Handjob series of step moms jerking off their sons.).

After my second to last trip to Oase after I could not cum in a condom once I purchased Brandi to help me.

[/QUOTE]

"Watching porn no longer arouses the person as much or as quickly. They then have to look at more porn or search for stronger porn to obtain the original sensation. " There is a condition called porn-induced-erectile dysfunction: [URL]https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/317117.php[/URL].

A lot of the hardcore mongers tell me that they can easily cum three times a day at home watching porn, needing only 5 minutes each time. But it is difficult to cum inside a condom with a WG, even during 60 minute session, on day one of their trip. Some guys have reported almost never. Some guys struggle to get 10 shots over a week long trip. One guy even told me that he pulled out his smartphone inside the room and watched with WG as he used his own hand to cum. I believe YamaYama was the one that reported that he leaves the club and goes back to the hotel to masturbate (don't remember him mentioning his porn habits).

Then you have some ongoing debate on the affects of Viagra. Some are convinced that Viagra keeps them erect, but makes it difficult to cum. Others report that Viagra has zero effect on one's ability to cum. For the guys who believe Viagra inhibits cumming, is it possible that they have a porn addiction? If so, I'd suggest popping a Viagra before watching porn. If it is difficult to pop, then indeed Viagra is the issue. If it is easy to pop, then perhaps they have just conditioned themselves so that porn arouses them more than partnered sex.

[QUOTE=McAdonis;2173751]One guy even told me that he pulled out his smartphone inside the room and watched with WG as he used his own hand to cum.[/QUOTE]Key point: *in her mouth*.

LOL.

[QUOTE=McAdonis;2173751]"Watching porn no longer arouses the person as much or as quickly. They then have to look at more porn or search for stronger porn to obtain the original sensation. " There is a condition called porn-induced-erectile dysfunction: [URL]https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/317117.php[/URL].

A lot of the hardcore mongers tell me that they can easily cum three times a day at home watching porn, needing only 5 minutes each time. But it is difficult to cum inside a condom with a WG, even during 60 minute session, on day one of their trip. Some guys have reported almost never. Some guys struggle to get 10 shots over a week long trip. One guy even told me that he pulled out his smartphone inside the room and watched with WG as he used his own hand to cum. I believe YamaYama was the one that reported that he leaves the club and goes back to the hotel to masturbate (don't remember him mentioning his porn habits).

Then you have some ongoing debate on the affects of Viagra. Some are convinced that Viagra keeps them erect, but makes it difficult to cum. Others report that Viagra has zero effect on one's ability to cum. For the guys who believe Viagra inhibits cumming, is it possible that they have a porn addiction? If so, I'd suggest popping a Viagra before watching porn. If it is difficult to pop, then indeed Viagra is the issue. If it is easy to pop, then perhaps they have just conditioned themselves so that porn arouses them more than partnered sex.[/QUOTE]I agree with this.

I think I have been there With the low volume sessions I take. Taking a girl on the first day of a 4 day trip then no girls after that until the 4th day taking another girl on the 4th day. Hell, I have even been downloading stuff while in the club to watch.

I spent all my time on sunbathing, wellness, eating, chatting with friends and swimming in the pool and reading my books. Did not bother with girls.

[QUOTE=Jnpr30;2173709]Getting the girls drunk to make them put out more is an interesting strategy. Never tried it. A few times one of my ex favs explicitly asked me to buy her a drink prior to the session and I did, but she seemed to handle it well and was not too much worse for it, and I could not tell if the service changed perceptably. One thing I will caution: alcohol may have an adverse impact on your own arousal and performance. There have been such occasions for me in the clubs however in those instances, I was tired and needed a drink and knew that I could not finish anyway.[/QUOTE]You need to get them more alcohol.

I know of guys getting girls way drunk by buying bottles which some girls cannot resist. I get girls asking for a bottle of something usually with red bull.

Tequila is a good one to get the princesses really horny, man, kinkier room sessions as the girls are really open to suggestions as less inhibited and handys in the room taking films and pictures is not a problem for the girl. Good times.

[QUOTE=McAdonis;2173751]"Watching porn no longer arouses the person as much or as quickly. They then have to look at more porn or search for stronger porn to obtain the original sensation. " There is a condition called porn-induced-erectile dysfunction: [URL]https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/317117.php[/URL].

A lot of the hardcore mongers tell me that they can cum three times a day at home watching porn no problem. But it is difficult to cum inside a condom with a WG. Some guys have reported almost never. Some guys struggle to get 10 shots over a week long trip. One guy even told me that he pulled out his smartphone inside the room and watched with WG as he used his own hand to cum.

Then you have some ongoing debate on the affects of Viagra. Some are convinced that Viagra keeps them erect, but makes it difficult to cum. Others report that Viagra has zero effect on one's ability to cum. For the guys who believe Viagra inhibits cumming, is it possible that they have a porn addiction? If so, I'd suggest popping a Viagra before watching porn. If it is difficult to pop, then indeed Viagra is indeed the issue. If it is easy to pop, then perhaps they have just conditioned themselves so that porn arouses them more than partnered sex.[/QUOTE]Agree! I have reported earlier that I had issues after years watching porn while using less and less US escorts. Thanks to FKKs, I recovered from porn side effects on cuming in condom nicely. The best cure was sensual DFK. Consistently, I feel 2 x or 3 x stronger orgasms when I finish in condom in a girl rather than in my hand. Beautiful and rewarding.

Yet even now I still have to watch porn almost every day to release myself in sex prison USA after testosterone-stimulating chats with our gypsies on WhatsApp. My advise during your USA prison term: when using hand, apply plenty of dick oil sold in stores under "baby oil" brand names. Keep your porn sessions to an absolute minimum. If you can be done in 5 minutes, do it, don't masturbate longer than that.

If I lived in an FKK-enabled country, I would never watch porn again except in a room with a girl for a mutual fantasy, if she says lets watch porn together.

[QUOTE=McAdonis;2173751]A lot of the hardcore mongers tell me that they can easily cum three times a day at home watching porn, needing only 5 minutes each time. But it is difficult to cum inside a condom with a WG, even during 60 minute session. Some guys have reported almost never. Some guys struggle to get 10 shots over a week long trip.

Then you have some ongoing debate on the affects of Viagra. Some are convinced that Viagra keeps them erect, but makes it difficult to cum. Others report that Viagra has zero effect on one's ability to cum. For the guys who believe Viagra inhibits cumming, is it possible that they have a porn addiction? If so, I'd suggest popping a Viagra before watching porn. If it is difficult to pop, then indeed Viagra is indeed the issue. If it is easy to pop, then perhaps they have just conditioned themselves so that porn arouses them more than partnered sex.[/QUOTE]Regarding finishing in a condom, I'm sure porn watching has a real effect but there are a lot of other factors in play. In 2017, I had some hard times finishing 3 times a day. First, I was having a lot of AO sex in 2016 but did not have as much access to it in 2017. I'm sure that was a major part of it. Psychological issues have been well documented in the clinical literature so perhaps some personal stress in 2017 also played into it.

Now, the answer that I think is the most easily addressed, personal fitness. As you alluded to with guys masturbating, I also had no issues finishing 3 times a day by masturbation and porn, but with a WG and a condom, I couldn't finish more than twice a day and the sessions had to be 8-10 hours apart. After making a concerted effort to improve my cardiovascular health this past winter, I returned in April 2018 and really saw a huge change. I was able to finish 3 times per day and was even able to pop twice in one hour on two occasions. This continued until about day 11/12 of my trip but I think that's understandable considering that I was dry by then. Basically, increasing overall blood flow and improving cardiac fitness so I could pump faster for longer really fixed my issues. It's a lot easier to be stationary and whacking away than it is to pump your whole body on top of a woman.

Regarding Viagra, it's not so much that it directly inhibits orgasm. There is no significant literature that shows empirical evidence to validate such claims. The problem is that you are so erect that pleasurable sensation decreases. When I am a little softer, sex and masturbation just feels better. When you are stiff like a rock, there is just less sensation. In the past I was curious about the effect of Viagra and did masturbate after taking it. While I had no problem cumming, the process did not feel as pleasurable and took about 10 minutes longer. Even on orgasm, I remember seeing the load come out but it just didn't feel as good.

[QUOTE=McAdonis;2173751]"Watching porn no longer arouses the person as much or as quickly. They then have to look at more porn or search for stronger porn to obtain the original sensation. " There is a condition called porn-induced-erectile dysfunction: [URL]https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/317117.php[/URL].

Then you have some ongoing debate on the affects of Viagra. Some are convinced that Viagra keeps them erect, but makes it difficult to cum. Others report that Viagra has zero effect on one's ability to cum. For the guys who believe Viagra inhibits cumming, is it possible that they have a porn addiction? If so, I'd suggest popping a Viagra before watching porn. If it is difficult to pop, then indeed Viagra is the issue. If it is easy to pop, then perhaps they have just conditioned themselves so that porn arouses them more than partnered sex.[/QUOTE]It is unfair to blame porn alone. It is the wanking accompanying the porn that has a large effect. It is a good idea to avoid wanking completely in order feel more sensation from a pussy, but if a guy cannot give it up, it is best to limit to very light wanking and not use it for a week before any FKK visit. This advise only applies to guys with difficulty to cum.

For guys getting sex very often, then wanking should be eliminated if there is any problem to cum at all. Personal choice for all, but sex feels better for me if have eliminated wanking. I am not into extreme porn at all. A guy starts to get mentally warped if he requires extreme porn to get it off. That is definitely not a good thing in my view.

There is little doubt that Viagra has a negative effect on cumming, for those guys whose dick becomes insensitive during an extended fuck. Without the Viagra, a guy with a non sensitive dick would not be able to stay hard so long, and he would be forced to try to cum earlier while dick was still reasonably sensitive. So yes, for insensitive dick guys, delaying the cum by staying hard so long may make it more difficult to achieve. Guys who pop too easily will never have the problem, but may be able to last longer with Viagra so that the girl can get some enjoyment as well. Girls will admit their man can perform better in bed with Viagra, for those cases where sex did not last very long (girls sometimes complain about a partner who lasted just 5 minutes or less, but Viagra helped fix it).

My GF does not need me to last longer. Marathon sex is not her desire. She is so sensitive, she can pop several times in 30 minutes. That is sufficient for her. I have to be content with less than an hour. By keeping the session down to 30 to 40 minutes, it makes it easier for me to cum at the end.

[QUOTE=SmokeLight;2173773]Agree! I have reported earlier that I had issues after years watching porn while using less and less US escorts. Thanks to FKKs, I recovered from porn side effects on cuming in condom nicely. The best cure was sensual DFK. Consistently, I feel 2 x or 3 x stronger orgasms when I finish in condom in a girl rather than in my hand. Beautiful and rewarding.

Yet even now I still have to watch porn almost every day to release myself in sex prison USA after testosterone-stimulating chats with our gypsies on WhatsApp. My advise during your USA prison term: when using hand, apply plenty of dick oil sold in stores under "baby oil" brand names. Keep your porn sessions to an absolute minimum. If you can be done in 5 minutes, do it, don't masturbate longer than that.

If I lived in an FKK-enabled country, I would never watch porn again except in a room with a girl for a mutual fantasy, if she says lets watch porn together.[/QUOTE]I have gone the route of US escorts harder than ever in between trips in lieu of jerking off to porn and to fight boredom. I never had a porn thing and 75 plus percent of the time I watch it now is in the hour after I book a session with a US hooker just to get my excitement started mentally and to also test and / or adjust my Viagra cocktail du jour. . My Urologist once told me many men get used to condoms by jerking off in them which is where I got the Brandi Love idea to practice after getting shutting out at Oase 6-0 two trips ago, got shut out again 1-0 last trip and at Sharks got beat up as well, think 6-1 the Sharks sent me packing in 3 visits. The one time I did cum in a condom at Sharks I had to think of Morena at Dietz sitting on my face while another rode me to completion the way God wanted us to.

My problem with cumming in a condom is I am too used to the opposite here and there.

Maybe I should do like you and fire my harem here. I do not know if it is a form of lubrication that would break down latex or not but baby oil itself works great. I have a few who use it here to edge or get me hard prior to blowjobs and fucking. Is this lube you speak of actually 100 percent baby oil or baby oil mixed with a water based one etc or a scent or heat producing ingredient?

[QUOTE=Takedown;2173786] First, I was having a lot of AO sex in 2016 but did not have as much access to it in 2017.

Psychological issues have been well documented in the clinical literature so perhaps some personal stress in 2017 also played into it.

Now, the answer that I think is the most easily addressed, personal fitness.

The problem is that you are so erect that pleasurable sensation decreases. When I am a little softer, sex and masturbation just feels better. .[/QUOTE]I do not always agree with all your posts but Grand Slam here or perhaps call it hitting 4 for 4 and for the cycle. For me all four points hold true 100 percent. Great points. Actually working on all four for the next episode of ' Man vs Condom'.

Thanks Doc ! :D

Where should I send the check to?

Love the saunaclubs in Germany. I really wish these could be a thing in Finland also. But there's too many people that don't want sex trade and we are lucky to be in this situation. If things were worse we would have the Swedish law also. I am glad I can still buy sex from beautiful Czech sexworks in my country but I wish for the clubs like in Germany.

[QUOTE=Guy93;2173986]Love the saunaclubs in Germany. I really wish these could be a thing in Finland also. But there's too many people that don't want sex trade and we are lucky to be in this situation. If things were worse we would have the Swedish law also. I am glad I can still buy sex from beautiful Czech sexworks in my country but I wish for the clubs like in Germany.[/QUOTE]I wish the same in my country but think on the bright side. You have beautiful Czechs, we have high school dropouts with rap sheets. You are a 3 hour flight to FKK land. For me a 3 hour flight lands me in the Florida Panhandle in the backyard of some evangelical if I go east, in some farmers's cornfield in Nebraska if I go north, uninhabitable desert land in Arizona if I go west and if I go south I get Mexico City.

Would you like to trade? :D

Yeah I wouldn't trade places unless you were very wealthy person and could buy pornstars for 1500 $ an hour.

But in Finland I think there would be so much better places to build clubs. People would experience Finland in a different way. There would also not be very high distance between the girls. Girls would travel to Helsinki in like 2 or 3 hours. Of course there would be trains after that, but they serve food and drinks, maybe even better than in planes, so no problem.

[QUOTE=Takedown;2173786] also had no issues finishing 3 times a day by masturbation and porn, but with a WG and a condom, I couldn't finish more than twice a day and the sessions had to be 8-10 hours apart. After making a concerted effort to improve my cardiovascular health this past winter, I returned in April 2018 and really saw a huge change. I was able to finish 3 times per day and was even able to pop twice in one hour on two occasions. This continued until about day 11/12 of my trip but I think that's understandable considering that I was dry by then. Basically, increasing overall blood flow and improving cardiac fitness so I could pump faster for longer really fixed my issues. It's a lot easier to be stationary and whacking away than it is to pump your whole body on top of a woman.[/QUOTE]Good pointers. Also sleep and certain aphrodisiacs helps a lot. And no hard gym the 3 days prior to reaching the FKK.

[QUOTE=KosherKowboy;2173994]I wish the same in my country but think on the bright side. You have beautiful Czechs, we have high school dropouts with rap sheets. You are a 3 hour flight to FKK land. For me a 3 hour flight lands me in the Florida Panhandle in the backyard of some evangelical if I go east, in some farmers's cornfield in Nebraska if I go north, uninhabitable desert land in Arizona if I go west and if I go south I get Mexico City.

Would you like to trade?[/QUOTE]Well were I live even Alcohol is illegal. So you can take a guess about the sex business in my country (zero). And Europe is 6 Hours+ by Airflights. Would you like to trade?

[QUOTE=McAdonis;2173751]Then you have some ongoing debate on the affects of Viagra. Some are convinced that Viagra keeps them erect, but makes it difficult to cum. Others report that Viagra has zero effect on one's ability to cum. For the guys who believe Viagra inhibits cumming, is it possible that they have a porn addiction? If so, I'd suggest popping a Viagra before watching porn. If it is difficult to pop, then indeed Viagra is the issue. If it is easy to pop, then perhaps they have just conditioned themselves so that porn arouses them more than partnered sex.[/QUOTE]I've not read any *scientific* evidence that Viagra inhibits orgasm. It just adjusts the hydraulics so to speak. It increases blood flow that increases ability to create an erection. The orgasm mechanism is independent. I believe what is happening is that guys are getting erections more easily than usual, and they expect that if they can get an erection then the rest of their system must be ready to work up an orgasm. This creates the illusion that orgasm is being suppressed.

[QUOTE=KosherKowboy;2173969]I do not know if it is a form of lubrication that would break down latex or not but baby oil itself works great. [/QUOTE]Baby oil will indeed cause condoms to break, and should never be used with condoms. Assuming you don't want the condom to break.

[QUOTE=Takedown;2173786]Basically, increasing overall blood flow and improving cardiac fitness so I could pump faster for longer really fixed my issues. It's a lot easier to be stationary and whacking away than it is to pump your whole body on top of a woman.[/QUOTE]I agree. For my third pop, I generally have to be moving my whole body for five minutes continuously without a pause. So when I am carrying too much winter weight, I get 90 percent there then I cramp up or collapse in exhaustion. If a girl gets on top of me and starts riding, I need about 3-5 sustained minutes of effort from her to cum. But sometimes I am out of breath from this too, because it is a core workout trying to brace yourself against the force of her thrusts.

But here's the thing, many of the men who report difficulty cumming inside a condom, also report that they cannot finish via CIM. Either the WG must use her hand. More often the monger himself must use his own hand. A man is both stationary and relaxed when he is getting a BBBJ, is he not?

[QUOTE=Nympholepsy;2173950]It is unfair to blame porn alone. It is the wanking accompanying the porn that has a large effect. It is a good idea to avoid wanking completely in order feel more sensation from a pussy, but if a guy cannot give it up, it is best to limit to very light wanking and not use it for a week before any FKK visit. This advise only applies to guys with difficulty to cum.
[/QUOTE]According to the article I posted, an unprecedented number of people under 40 are reporting that they suffer from ED. That is to say that there were fewer reported cases of ED amongst the under-40 demographic back in say 2005. Why are there more cases now? Men have been wanking since the beginning of time. Men back in 1970 had to wank to the same magazine centerfold everyday for a month. Men in 2005 probably had a catalog of 20 porn DVDs that they cycled for use. However, men in 2018 have infinite access to free streaming internet porn. The author of the article tries to use science to support his argument, essentially saying that too much porn results in dopamine overload. "Although the brain continues to release the same levels of dopamine in response to porn, eventually there are fewer receptors to receive the messages. Watching porn no longer arouses the person as much or as quickly. ".

I agree that giving up wanking would be preferred, but that may not be achievable. I suppose there are several experiments one can try. Perhaps only masturbating to a non-nude photo of your favorite FKK girl? Or masturbating only from the memory of the best sessions from your last FKK trip? If they can't even achieve erection from this, then I'd lean towards porn being the culprit. If they are still able to get fully aroused, I would adopt your position, that a man's difficulty cumming with a partner is due to the fact that he is just too accustomed to how his own hand feels.

[QUOTE=Neurosynth;2174078] I believe what is happening is that guys are getting erections more easily than usual, and they expect that if they can get an erection then the rest of their system must be ready to work up an orgasm. This creates the illusion that orgasm is being suppressed.[/QUOTE]Possible. But I suspect most men know their physical capabilities with regard to how many times they can cum per day (or week) using their masturbation habits as the benchmark. Takedown used the word "dry" to emphasize that he is running low on sperm.

[QUOTE=McAdonis;2174101]But here's the thing, many of the men who report difficulty cumming inside a condom, also report that they cannot finish via CIM. Either the WG must use her hand. More often the monger himself must use his own hand. A man is both stationary and relaxed when he is getting a BBBJ, is he not?
[/QUOTE]Can't speak for other guys so theirs might be a separate issue. But I've never been able to CIM with only the girl doing the work, even on the first pop on the first day of a mongering trip, HJ at best and that's a new development for me.

Wheres my second star? I always thought about that you'll get like promoted here when you reach 250 or 500 posts. I also write on the other forums, but this is the international and I like it. Got to love Germany. All the way EU. United we stay.

There it is thank you very much. :)

[QUOTE=Guy93;2174182]Wheres my second star? I always thought about that you'll get like promoted here when you reach 250 or 500 posts. I also write on the other forums, but this is the international and I like it. Got to love Germany. All the way EU. United we stay.

There it is thank you very much.[/QUOTE]Well to be considered important on this forum, you will be granted filtered option where all your posts are filtered before it is posted on forum by administrators, it is Royal status where they concern about your public appearance, so they will decide what kind of statements are posted on this forum based on their censorship.

I have been granted such a prestigious Royal censorship status on this forum for years, so my posts are either filtered out to adjust to Royal prestigious code to keep public appearance or has delay of 24 hours before posted on forum due to Royal censorship by Royal administrators.

[QUOTE=Takedown;2174112]Can't speak for other guys so theirs might be a separate issue. But I've never been able to CIM with only the girl doing the work, even on the first pop on the first day of a mongering trip, HJ at best and that's a new development for me.[/QUOTE]Fuck, for me, if it's the first pop of the week and the girl is any good at OWO then I have to stop and switch to something else or I will literally pop in the first five minutes or less. OWO just does it for me. But of course as the week progresses and the sessions pile up it becomes progressively harder. With a single girl, it's usually going to take an hour and finish by hand. I've learned to do duos when pops are getting hard to cum by. If I am DFKing and FIVing one girl, while being OWO with another (my all time favorite combo), the complexity of multiple sensations gives me that extra edge and I can find a pop in there.

[QUOTE=Pistons;2174027]Good pointers. Also sleep and certain aphrodisiacs helps a lot. And no hard gym the 3 days prior to reaching the FKK.[/QUOTE]Intense sport in high altitude, like Kenyans or Ethiopians, help. Then, being able to control, staying on the edge, exhausting the girl, being careful not to hurt her of course, to make her lose her strength to resist and control. Enjoyable game, even usually easier to make cum girls from clit or asshole than too used vagina fucked many times a day.

[QUOTE=Pistons;2174027]Good pointers. Also sleep and certain aphrodisiacs helps a lot. And no hard gym the 3 days prior to reaching the FKK.[/QUOTE]I find weight lifting (not body building, but good weight working out), helpful for libido and erection. Not daily, but every 72 hours. When I used to work out in Artemis down stairs, I was so horny after work out and my erection was strong after work out and a day or two after.

I think good work out in gym with dumbells are good for sex, but of course not body building. Is this only me?

Also when I walk for one hour or jog for 20 minute and fuck after, my erection is much stronger too, so I think over all, sport works for me.

[QUOTE=Guy93;2173986]Love the saunaclubs in Germany. I really wish these could be a thing in Finland also. But there's too many people that don't want sex trade and we are lucky to be in this situation. If things were worse we would have the Swedish law also. I am glad I can still buy sex from beautiful Czech sexworks in my country but I wish for the clubs like in Germany.[/QUOTE]Why there are no beautiful Czech girl at German FKK like Oase and Shark? As much I love the Romanian girl beauty, sometime it is nice for have girl from different country and style.

Why the Czech girl go to Finland instead of Germany?

Hello forum!

Arriving soon, need something new, something different!

Going to be in the general vicinity of Ulm, anyone have experiences at Morgenland or Safari?

[QUOTE=Neurosynth;2173695]HIV is of particular interest because it can't be cured, only controlled, and will still be potentially fatal. Most "nasty" STDs are treatable and properly treated not fatal.[/QUOTE]There's some not so nice antibiotics resistant germs developing. Have fun with them.

Was at Safari. LU sucked. Quantity but even worse quality. Not very clean. Avoid.

[QUOTE=Guy93;2173986]Love the saunaclubs in Germany. I really wish these could be a thing in Finland also. But there's too many people that don't want sex trade and we are lucky to be in this situation. If things were worse we would have the Swedish law also. I am glad I can still buy sex from beautiful Czech sexworks in my country but I wish for the clubs like in Germany.[/QUOTE]Where do you buy beautiful czech girls in Finland? Is it escort or there are place like FKK format in Finland?

There used to be beautiful Czech in FKK like Marketa in Artemis, she was 8.5 beauty appearance level out of 10 to my scoring system, and service level was 10.

[QUOTE=Jolokia;2174286]Why there are no beautiful Czech girl at German FKK like Oase and Shark? As much I love the Romanian girl beauty, sometime it is nice for have girl from different country and style.

Why the Czech girl go to Finland instead of Germany?[/QUOTE]Czech girls don't need to go anywhere. The local market in the Czech Republic, which includes plenty of foreign tourists, has a higher rate per hour than Germany. I would think that when a Czech lady wants to tour, she would prefer to take out an escort ad in a country with a high rate per hour and work 3-4 hours a day, including transportation, to see a couple of customers at 150-250 euros an hour and have the rest of the day to do what she wants instead if working a long shift at an FKK and parading around naked in order to get enough customers at 50-100 euros a session to make as much or more. Only the girls know the economics, but my guess is that a true GFE Czech lady can earn more money and have a higher quality of life working as an independent escort at home, and doing occasional Scandinavian tours, than she could earn at an FKK, but maybe I am wrong. What does she need? A website, some ads, and some reviews, and her cell phone should start ringing, especially in sex-starved Finland.

[QUOTE=Mongerer88;2174521]Czech girls don't need to go anywhere. The local market in the Czech Republic, which includes plenty of foreign tourists, has a higher rate per hour than Germany. I would think that when a Czech lady wants to tour, she would prefer to take out an escort ad in a country with a high rate per hour and work 3-4 hours a day, including transportation, to see a couple of customers at 150-250 euros an hour and have the rest of the day to do what she wants instead if working a long shift at an FKK and parading around naked in order to get enough customers at 50-100 euros a session to make as much or more. Only the girls know the economics, but my guess is that a true GFE Czech lady can earn more money and have a higher quality of life working as an independent escort at home, and doing occasional Scandinavian tours, than she could earn at an FKK, but maybe I am wrong. What does she need? A website, some ads, and some reviews, and her cell phone should start ringing, especially in sex-starved Finland.[/QUOTE]Can Romanian and Bulgarian girls work in Czech Republic?

If they can, in theory pricing should be competitve, no?

Yes, exactly.

My favorite Czech girl in Tampere asks 90 euro for half an hour. I really like her and I'm used to pay for an hour 170 €.

Yeah you are right, she has to pay her advertise and rent, but she earns quite a lot I think.

I think I am a bit in love with her. I always try to visit her when she comes to city. I have visited her over 30 times by now.

[QUOTE=Jnpr30;2174547]Can Romanian and Bulgarian girls work in Czech Republic?

If they can, in theory pricing should be competitve, no?[/QUOTE]I have never understood why there are not more Romanian and Bulgarian ladies touring as independent escorts, not only in the Czech Republic like you suggest, but also in the Scandinavian countries where the rate per hour is higher.

One theory is that the independent escorts who tour have more skills in terms of cell phone technology, placing internet ads, the ability to communicate in multiple languages, and enough funds to cover ads and costs of arriving at a location and finding accommodation. Perhaps more Czech ladies have those needed skills and available funds to do so, in comparison to Romanuans.

I am sure some would find that hypothesis to be arrogant. Perhaps another explanation is that Romanian and Bulgarian ladies simply face more hassle from authorities if they operate as independent escorts for short tours in relatively higher-priced locales. If johns can find them, then so can the authorities. The Roma often complain of discrimination. Perhaps a Czech lady can go to a country as a tourist, run as escort ad, and get responses only from Johns, but perhaps a Romanian lady, especially if she is advertising at a lower price, enters a hotel room and is met by investigators and asked to leave a country (or never allowed to enter some countries where customs and immigration occur).

Or perhaps the older sisters and older friends of Romanian and Bulgarian ladies simply talk about getting on the bus to Germany and the FKKs, where the older girls in the Czech Republic, where there is a stronger porn industry and a more international flavor, talk about how great it is to tour sex-starved areas of Europe where the guys pay more.

I don't know the reasons why. I just know that when you see ads for independent escorts and "upscale agencies" in Scandinavian countries, France, Italy, Great Britain, etc. You see relatively more local ladies and touring ladies from the Czech Republic, Ukraine. Russia, Poland, etc.

It is just my opinion, but I think the FKKs are looked down on by many hookers outside of Eastern Europe. Years ago, an escort I really like in Lisbon once told me she might do some entry level work in her field of study in Germany. I asked her if she would ever work at an FKK occasionally if she ever did go to Germany. She looked at me like I was nuts and said she wasn't going to walk around naked and beg guys for inexpensive sessions. Now strictly speaking, she probably only gets a few calls a week as an escort, and she might make more fucking five guys a shift at an FKK, but I am not sure an escort who views each outcall session as a unique date really looks at it that way. So I think there are cultural differences among ladies in each country that we do not always appreciate.

[QUOTE=MrHo;2174508]Where do you buy beautiful czech girls in Finland? Is it escort or there are place like FKK format in Finland?

There used to be beautiful Czech in FKK like Marketa in Artemis, she was 8.5 beauty appearance level out of 10 to my scoring system, and service level was 10.[/QUOTE]There are touring escorts advertising online all over the nordics. From most european countries: baltics, poland, czech, Hungary, russia, ukraine, Italy, Germany, Austria. Pluss even a few koreans, thai and random other asians and latino. And ofcourse many from Bulgaria and romania too or even local drug addicts if that is your thing. But standards are usually below average. Although There are the occational ex pornstar from Hungary or Germany etc. Most ads are fake though, but as for a sex vacation it is deffinately not worth it. You really need to know the field well to avoid the girls who smell bad, the ones who are total newbies on certain sex positions and BJ's. And to avoid 3-4 dead runs to fake ads before you hit a hot one. And even many of the verified pics are years old. Germany is much better. Pluss it is legal, while in the nordics it may not be everywhere, and cops can fine you. 100% of street walkers in the nordics are trafficced also and the mafia is bribing the families of the street walkers. The internet ad apartment girls are from all over all sorts of countries though, so less likely to be organized, but some are there too. It gets more like that when it is illegal.

[QUOTE=Pistons;2174560]There are touring escorts advertising online all over the nordics. From most european countries: baltics, poland, czech, Hungary, russia, ukraine, Italy, Germany, Austria. Pluss even a few koreans, thai and random other asians and latino. And ofcourse many from Bulgaria and romania too or even local drug addicts if that is your thing. But standards are usually below average. Although There are the occational ex pornstar from Hungary or Germany etc. Most ads are fake though, but as for a sex vacation it is deffinately not worth it. You really need to know the field well to avoid the girls who smell bad, the ones who are total newbies on certain sex positions and BJ's. And to avoid 3-4 dead runs to fake ads before you hit a hot one. And even many of the verified pics are years old. Germany is much better. Pluss it is legal, while in the nordics it may not be everywhere, and cops can fine you. 100% of street walkers in the nordics are trafficced also and the mafia is bribing the families of the street walkers. The internet ad apartment girls are from all over all sorts of countries though, so less likely to be organized, but some are there too. It gets more like that when it is illegal.[/QUOTE]OK if optic is not good, it is not my thing and yes I have seen some porno stars escort in Prague and some seems authentic, but thing is that they are former stars that were famous but faded out, so even some of them were real hot 10 years ago or so, we do not know how they look now. You know this industry make people look old fast, so paying a lot for older version of them is bit risky.

This is one thing I love about FKK, you see what you going to pay for. With escort. You rely on them to choose girls for you. Some are even rip off.

[QUOTE=Jolokia;2174286]Why there are no beautiful Czech girl at German FKK like Oase and Shark? As much I love the Romanian girl beauty, sometime it is nice for have girl from different country and style.

Why the Czech girl go to Finland instead of Germany?[/QUOTE]Real Russians, Ukrainians, Czech, don't want to work for 50, they prefer to work as escort for more expensive rate. Czech have own market in privates at home.

In FKK land, even at expensive Globe or very expensive Aphrodisia Zurich city where 30 mn are for 280 CHF and 1 hour for 500 CHF, mostly Romanians and few Hungarians or Bulgarians.

Very few Russians are second choice for look.

For those who do not seek weight on companionship of one female seek for different things in life simply because we have more freedom in many areas of life, whether it is financial area, time, commitments and freedom in almost all areas actually.

So we have to invest that freedom in many areas we have very wisely because unlike married men, we have luxury called freedom to do whatever we want.

I think best freedom one can gain as born men is continually fucking different young beautiful girls our choices every year continuously, this is not human need as man, but it is human dream as man who has lust.

It excite me every year to realize what kind of beautiful girls will I meet in next few months and hey it is guaranteed thing for me as all I need is my will to pay and will to go to places I know to get them and it is secure thing for me, I know I will have new beautiful young girls continuously as I want as long as I am free.

So knowing this fact, why would any men who has bit of rationality or own thinking brain left will let go such a freedom by marriage that take away majority of freedom?

Companionship do not need to be weighted upon one woman who hold you back from many thing men want to do including going to long mongering trips or go out at night to fuck beautiful prostitute I find.

It is mystery to me in the era we live today where we have information about how amazing we can live if we choose the freedom path instead of marriage path, yet people still tie them selves with non sense that do not make sense and bully their life.

As I write this now, there is new girls who are walking into my bed next year still studying in university in Japan, Romania or Germany or where-ever. They are now, once they hit the legal age of 18 years old, it is matter of time till I bump into her via escorts or German FKK.

Being pro mongers who get best beauty is almost like full time job, one has to be ready to go at any time, but wow it is way to live.

I look at the city and sky above and think to myself wow there are girls out there who I will fuck later on this year or next year and year after that etc, it is amazing feeling and craving for them never end.

Why would many men bother to bind themselves legally to junk bond called wife? Fate? Destiny? Huh?

For pro monger like me, karma, destiny and fate is beautiful prostitute we bump into at FKK clubs or escort I managed to filtered and hunt down to my taste LOL!

There are girls out there waiting to be fucked year after year once they become legal age to work, this is amazing feeling that gives me stability, calm and quiet satisfaction.

[QUOTE=MrHo;2174214]I find weight lifting (not body building, but good weight working out), helpful for libido and erection. Not daily, but every 72 hours. When I used to work out in Artemis down stairs, I was so horny after work out and my erection was strong after work out and a day or two after.

I think good work out in gym with dumbells are good for sex, but of course not body building. Is this only me?

Also when I walk for one hour or jog for 20 minute and fuck after, my erection is much stronger too, so I think over all, sport works for me.[/QUOTE]Not squats I assume? I have bad experiences with squats in conjunction with sex as too much blood stays in the legs.

I have only one pornstar experience that I am aware of and she was Ashley Bulgari from Czech.

[QUOTE=Sirioja;2174675]Real Russians, Ukrainians, Czech, don't want to work for 50, they prefer to work as escort for more expensive rate. Czech have own market in privates at home.

In FKK land, even at expensive Globe or very expensive Aphrodisia Zurich city where 30 mn are for 280 CHF and 1 hour for 500 CHF, mostly Romanians and few Hungarians or Bulgarians.

Very few Russians are second choice for look.[/QUOTE]This makes no sense. So Russians are willing to work for 200 euro per hour in Paris but they won't work in Switzerland for 500 Francs in Switzerland?

Sounds like a Visa issues.

[QUOTE=Takedown;2174863]This makes no sense. So Russians are willing to work for 200 euro per hour in Paris but they won't work in Switzerland for 500 Francs in Switzerland?

Sounds like a Visa issues.[/QUOTE]Do FKK land or all fakers there, make sense? Go to visit very expensive, but free entry, Aphrodisia yourself, mostly Romanians, classy Ilka ex Sharks, tried there.

Russians or Ukrainians tour in Paris with touristic visa, I met few Russians at Oase or GT working with touristic visa, before 1st January.

WGs who work less than 90 days per year don't need to register in Switzerland, so they could also use touristic visa, Switzerland welcome tourists.

In rich London, you find many Polish, but not so many Russians. Russian escorts liked Paris, Milano and Istanbul, on golden years. I wait my hot Siberian on May, for Russian nights, after she visits Paris on day.

[QUOTE=Pistons;2174759]Not squats I assume? I have bad experiences with squats in conjunction with sex as too much blood stays in the legs.[/QUOTE]Well I do not do squat too much as it affect knee if positioning is not good, but I have to say walking exercise or better jogging make my erection extra harder especially right before sex.

One thing though, as a pro monger, what we are doing is unnatural from societal point of view, so getting beautiful pussies day after day even few per day, year after year make my hurdle for woman of my choice very high and also doing all the dirty thing make my hurdle to get excited very high too because simply we are too spoil with over sexed up with beautiful girls.

It is bit like too much of dreams coming into reality in area of lust that we feel bit hollow sometimes, then I realize back to my horny stage and crave for new beautiful girls to fuck, I mean it is never ending crave which is not possible for most men. So to encounter that, doing exercise helps as somehow I get more horny and more stronger boner. But again not too much then we are too tired to fuck.

[QUOTE=Takedown;2174863]This makes no sense. So Russians are willing to work for 200 euro per hour in Paris but they won't work in Switzerland for 500 Francs in Switzerland?

Sounds like a Visa issues.[/QUOTE]Girl care about their working condition and freedom too. I know some girls who worked in globe and Babylon in Austria, but prefer working in German FKK due to freedom. Top girls will always find their good clients and like at GT Bruggen, some girls do not go with all clients just with regulars or those who are willing to go for longer session basically more money. Yes Siri, I know good behavior and manner helps too, but not that great extent as money LOL.

[QUOTE=Guy93;2174834]I have only one pornstar experience that I am aware of and she was Ashley Bulgari from Czech.[/QUOTE]Not bad. She is a hot one. I also went once with an Hungarian ex pornstar. But service was rather poor, and she didn't look as good as when she was younger. I guess she was perhaps about 35 and had some extra belly fat. Problem with so many pornstars is their rough blowjobs. Like a robot. Absolutely no passion at all. Just mechanical.

[QUOTE=Guy93;2174834]I have only one pornstar experience that I am aware of and she was Ashley Bulgari from Czech.[/QUOTE]There was a time when I would have wired all the money in my "fun" account to experience that. Good for you, super jealous.

I ran into Gina Snake at an LMP party in London (before the name switch) quite a while back. Not what I usually go for in the looks department but the experience was out of this world.

The only other was when I shelled out the money to experience Brooklyn Chase a few years ago in NYC. Wanted to cross a big name porn star off my list. Once in a lifetime experience, but I can't justify ever spending that kind of money for a single HR session again. There are too many similar (or better) service opportunities out there for way less money.

[QUOTE=Sirioja;2174675]Real Russians, Ukrainians, Czech, don't want to work for 50, they prefer to work as escort for more expensive rate. Czech have own market in privates at home.

In FKK land, even at expensive Globe or very expensive Aphrodisia Zurich city where 30 mn are for 280 CHF and 1 hour for 500 CHF, mostly Romanians and few Hungarians or Bulgarians.

Very few Russians are second choice for look.[/QUOTE]Real Italian and Real spanish do not want to work for 50 euro per 30 min, they must be Romanian LOL.

Reality check for men, very wise accurate observation and the moment of what did I do to married folks:

Marriage is a sham for men. There is almost no benefit. If you are about to get married, think it over. Don't let your dick do your thinking for you. Don't let your punch-drunk "I'm in love" euphoria put you on auto-pilot. You will wake up in a hell of a hangover staring at this woman who will control your life.

A few years ago I started talking to all the older guys I knew. And they all said the same thing; "don't do it, it's shit. Even when it's not bad, it's shit. "You end up being closely tied to an old woman. Think about that. I can go to Europe or the south seas tomorrow. If I was married I wouldn't have the money and I'd have to ask her permission. Don't get married unless you are absolutely, religiously in love with her. Like you'd carry her sick aged body to the toilet and wipe her ass and be happy to do it kind of love.

What I'm saying is that human beings are nasty weak treacherous creatures that are for the most part totally untrustworthy. Experience is my basis for this statement, both mine and others who I know or who have written reliable histories. If you can find a woman to be your companion who is not treacherous, a deceitful little actress, a sly working girl or a manipulative nag or a shrieking hag, then you are among the lucky few. Congratulations. I hope your luck continues to hold out.

OK, assume that you will end up divorced and won't see your kids and lose half of your assets, how different is that from being married?

Most married guys I know are working their asses off to pay bills, rarely to get to spend time with their families, mediocre or no sex life, and have wives that spend as much of their money as absolutely possible.

My problem with marriage isn't a fear of divorce; it is that the whole thing sucks divorce or not.

What security is there for men in marriage?

If I cheat on my wife, she gets half my shit.

If she cheats on me, she still gets half my shit.

Why the hell should I get married?

Man, it's easy to get depressed about not being married when we live in a society that constantly feeds us the image of the happy couple. It's one big lie. The happiest person alive is someone who isn't a prisoner dependent on another human being. We only have 80 or so years on this rock to achieve true freedom.

Very few marriages last nowadays, and even guys older than me are telling me not to even think about it. It's a grossly overrated source of happiness. And for the 80% that do go through divorce, it will financially ruin you for life. Period. You can take your best 10 earning years from say, 35 to 45 and take all the wealth you would have accumulated and flush it down the toilet. Because it will go to her and her lawyer. If it happens naturally and it's good then great, good luck. But the worst thing is to force it, to make gross exertions and ignore all sorts of red lights going off just to be hooked up and "normal. " Get some hobbies. Relax. Hang out. Enjoy. Take life as it comes.

As men, we all know that a woman's primary objective is to marry. After years of experience I've discovered their most commonly used strategy. Here it is:

1. Girl pressures guy for marriage.

2. Guy delays.

3. Girl gradually starts destroying guy's self-esteem and eliminating his friends.

4. Guy becomes too weak and too much of a loser to find something better than what he has.

5. Girl starts to limit sex. In effect, she's controlling the only good thing in the guy's life.

6. Guy is in despair. Capitulates to marriage.

Then 5-10 years later the guy is an empty shell of his former self. Girl is a ruthless manipulating machine. Girl divorces loser husband. Girl takes 80% of guy's stuff because the guy is too brain-dead to find a good lawyer. Girl lives happily ever after. Guy becomes bald alcoholic who dies of heart attack at 45 years old.

All good and well but the reasoning you presented that Russians and Ukrainian don't work in FKK because of low rates does not make sense. Why would they work for 200 Euro per hour but not 500 Francs per hour? Zurich is a beautiful city, nicer than Paris, Milan, or Istanbul. Must be some other reason.

[QUOTE=Sirioja;2174945]Do FKK land or all fakers there, make sense? Go to visit very expensive, but free entry, Aphrodisia yourself, mostly Romanians, classy Ilka ex Sharks, tried there.

Russians or Ukrainians tour in Paris with touristicmus visa, I met few Russians at Oase or GT working with touristic visa, before 1st January.

WGs who work less than 90 days per year don't need to register in Switzerland, so they could also use touristic visa, Switzerland welcome tourists.

In rich London, you find many Polish, but not so many Russians. Russian escorts liked Paris, Milano and Istanbul, on golden years. I wait my hot Siberian on May, for Russian nights, after she visits Paris on day.[/QUOTE]

EU citizens can work in al EU countries. As a WG. If prostitution is legal.

[QUOTE=Pistons;2174990]Problem with so many pornstars is their rough blowjobs. Like a robot. Absolutely no passion at all. Just mechanical.[/QUOTE]In porn blowjobs are performed with lips curved outwards for maximal visual effect. In a good, non toothy blow-jobs lips are turned inwards to avoid tooth contact and maybe also to maximize the vacuum effect.

[QUOTE=XXL;2175298]In porn blowjobs are performed with lips curved outwards for maximal visual effect. In a good, non toothy blow-jobs lips are turned inwards to avoid tooth contact and maybe also to maximize the vacuum effect.[/QUOTE]Yeah well girls who don't know any better see that porn and think that's the way to do it. And then they want to go and start spitting on your dick and shit! I actually like that hahaha!

Below is a link to Chinese makeup artist who can make herself look like famous "beautiful" white and black celebrities (Taylor Swift, Katy Perry). This is why I prefer bodies over faces.

[URL]https://youtu.be/dSTneWjEpsE[/URL]

[QUOTE=Takedown;2175082]All good and well but the reasoning you presented that Russians and Ukrainian don't work in FKK because of low rates does not make sense. Why would they work for 200 Euro per hour but not 500 Francs per hour? Zurich is a beautiful city, nicer than Paris, Milan, or Istanbul. Must be some other reason.[/QUOTE]You are absolutely correct. But I think that FKK mongers would prefer not to know the reason. I have read somewhere that some posters think Ukrainian girls would flood into FKK clubs if they were allowed to work in Germany. It won't happen and Romanian WGs will still dominate the scene in FKK clubs even if Ukrainian girls are allowed to work in sex industry in Germany.

[QUOTE=Bfsie;2175455]You are absolutely correct. But I think that FKK mongers would prefer not to know the reason. I have read somewhere that some posters think Ukrainian girls would flood into FKK clubs if they were allowed to work in Germany. It won't happen and Romanian WGs will still dominate the scene in FKK clubs even if Ukrainian girls are allowed to work in sex industry in Germany.[/QUOTE]I am curious to hear your reasons for this. Poland is already flooded with Ukrainian girls selling sex. And it is not like the Polish spending power is astronomical.

[QUOTE=XXL;2175298]In porn blowjobs are performed with lips curved outwards for maximal visual effect. In a good, non toothy blow-jobs lips are turned inwards to avoid tooth contact and maybe also to maximize the vacuum effect.[/QUOTE]Yeah I had dick cutting session two years ago and it remained easy to cut for like next one year and it got fixed recently and my dick can take heavy blowjob again, thanks god.

Mongering is like combat sport, monger get injured too LOL, but during injury I did not sit on bench, I was on the mongering field LOL.

Hello fellow mongerers!

Five years since my lone (and mind blowing!) trip to an FKK ('World' in Giessen), I am finally set to return.

I'll be based in Frankfurt, and will have a car for a Wednesday and a Thursday excursion.

Can you please comment on which of these clubs has the best talent level (with emphasis on young, natural-looking girls)?

Oase (Frankfurt).

Palace (Frankfurt).

Mainhattan (Frankfurt).

Atlanta (Hanau).

Sharks (Darmstadt).

Night & Day (Burstadt).

Sakura (Stuttgart).

Paradise (Stuttgrat).

World (Giessen).

Finca (Dierdorf).

Bernd's (Bonn).

Residenz (Cologne).

Samya (Cologne).

Any other FKKs within a 2 HR drive from Frankfurt that I missed.

Thanks kindly in advance!

[QUOTE=RogueNation;2175130]EU citizens can work in al EU countries. As a WG. If prostitution is legal.[/QUOTE]Well that seems to be the case only for Romanian and Bulgarians mostly LOL They are good looking girls, so that is good, but hoping to see more nationalities to join in again like I once used to see here and there in FKK clubs.

It must be to do with existing system where there is a helper to support girls coming into Germany and work in german FKK because girls to just decide to knock on brothels door on her own takes brave decision, so I guess for romania and Bulgaria there is already existing support platform to help girls to do that.

I hope they extend such support platforms to other EU related nations, so we monger get varieties of girls like we once used to.

I have to say immigration thing is good supply to future FKK lineup, I am expecting huge mixed race collections in near future to be added to FKK line up.

[QUOTE=Pistons;2175469]I am curious to hear your reasons for this. Poland is already flooded with Ukrainian girls selling sex. And it is not like the Polish spending power is astronomical.[/QUOTE]Really? All these Ukrainian girls has to do is come across the border to German FKK then LOL.

When will this happen?

[QUOTE=Pistons;2175469]Poland is already flooded with Ukrainian girls selling sex..[/QUOTE]Is that so? Where did you experience that?

[QUOTE=Pistons;2175469] Poland is already flooded with Ukrainian girls selling sex. And it is not like the Polish spending power is astronomical.[/QUOTE]Read my post carefully. I said Ukrainian girls won't flood into FKK clubs, I didn't say Ukrainian girls won't flood into some other types of sex establishments if they are allowed to work in Germany.

[QUOTE=Pistons;2175469]I am curious to hear your reasons for this. [/QUOTE]My criterion of whether I post anything on ISG is that I think my post would be helpful to most readers and would give most readers good or positive feeling. So I don't write anything here which would possibly give readers bad or negative feeling.

[QUOTE=RogueNation;2175631]Is that so? Where did you experience that?[/QUOTE]Gdansk / Sopot. But I hear it is not very different for example in Krakow etc. And perhaps in other cities too.

[QUOTE=Bfsie;2175642]Read my post carefully. I said Ukrainian girls won't flood into FKK clubs..[/QUOTE]Why is that?

[QUOTE=MrHo;2175472]Yeah I had dick cutting session two years ago and it remained easy to cut for like next one year and it got fixed recently and my dick can take heavy blowjob again, thanks god.

Mongering is like combat sport, monger get injured too LOL, but during injury I did not sit on bench, I was on the mongering field LOL.[/QUOTE]Toothy blow jobs can be rough.

Sometimes, you can have a toothy blow job which can lead to micro cuts, and then turn around have BBBJ or BBFS with a girl, could be somewhat risky. I remember someone on this board, don't remember who it was Cane or Brian or someone, complaining a while ago that such an escapade led to some STD. Thankfully it got cured, as I remembered reading.

[QUOTE=MyTwoInches;2175925]Toothy blow jobs can be rough.

Sometimes, you can have a toothy blow job which can lead to micro cuts, and then turn around have BBBJ or BBFS with a girl, could be somewhat risky. I remember someone on this board, don't remember who it was Cane or Brian or someone, complaining a while ago that such an escapade led to some STD. Thankfully it got cured, as I remembered reading.[/QUOTE]Yeah the worst thing is aftermath, such cut can be cured within a month, but like with sport such as boxing, it become habit cut. I kept on getting cut after my first teethy BBBJ cut for like year and bit, then finally my skin got back to normal or even stronger state as it used to before the cut recently, so I now can take strong BBBJ again. But till recently for like a year. , it kept on cutting after BBBJ.

I had such cutting session back home and not in German FKK, I have to say in German FKK, I never came across bad BBBJ, and usually BBBJ at German FKK are real professional that I cannot get satisfaction from BBBJ anywhere else but German FKK LOL, well gents aren't we lucky to know that we get one of the best BBBJ in the world LOL.

[QUOTE=MrHo;2175905]Why is that?[/QUOTE]Ukrainians don't have a right to work in EU. So, the FKKs can't hire them.

[QUOTE=UltraHappy;2175977]Ukrainians don't have a right to work in EU. So, the FKKs can't hire them.[/QUOTE]With the exception of Poland and Czech Republic you are right of course.

Hi and ho, ho, ho, hah hah to all the ho's! I am sadly forced to admit there is truth that most humans are treacherous, weak etc, and women play that more because they are a perishable asset in re productivity and looks and have to make up for lack of power with cunning. Looks and holding a man really matters to them. Women do try to undermine male independence, and they also gaslight reality. They may not have our physical bulk, but like a cat, the scratches go deep and get infected. Part of this is also tied up with the marriage fairytale story and bitterness at dashed expectations.

The point is that unless a woman is truly a trusted friend with tons of stuff in common outside of the bedroom who makes you laugh, then the old adage that if it flies, floats or fucks, then rent. Do not buy it. Holds true.

A good WG is an actress who understands it is playtime and she stars in her role and needs to put on a good show. A more permanent woman has a legal put option and does not have to try so hard. I'll add to Mr. Ho's observations: most married men complain their wives are like sexless sisters.

[QUOTE=UltraHappy;2175977]Ukrainians don't have a right to work in EU. So, the FKKs can't hire them.[/QUOTE]One fine day, the door will open for them and we be more happy mongers LOL!

[QUOTE=PahllusMaximus;2175987]Hi and ho, ho, ho, hah hah to all the ho's! I am sadly forced to admit there is truth that most humans are treacherous, weak etc, and women play that more because they are a perishable asset in re productivity and looks and have to make up for lack of power with cunning. Looks and holding a man really matters to them. Women do try to undermine male independence, and they also gaslight reality. They may not have our physical bulk, but like a cat, the scratches go deep and get infected. Part of this is also tied up with the marriage fairytale story and bitterness at dashed expectations.

The point is that unless a woman is truly a trusted friend with tons of stuff in common outside of the bedroom who makes you laugh, then the old adage that if it flies, floats or fucks, then rent. Do not buy it. Holds true.

A good WG is an actress who understands it is playtime and she stars in her role and needs to put on a good show. A more permanent woman has a legal put option and does not have to try so hard. I'll add to Mr. Ho's observations: most married men complain their wives are like sexless sisters.[/QUOTE]Yes, but men can have such friends outside house and not inside and get sex else where with beauties that one can change every time if you want. But if you are forced to marry, I understand what you mean.

Good WG is kinda actress yes, it is hard though as I do have one WG who write me simple mail now and then to say Hi etc, I guess to keep the escort thing on because I did her in my hotel room once. Once she ask me to goto her nation which is Spain, but hmmm too dangerous, so I declined but it could have been nice, but as a pro monger, one need to control emotion as when you show emotion, that is when you are done in mongering world LOL! These girls show you love, that how they fool mongers LOL!

All in all, professional monger is the life style one chooses, it supply mens dream level lust into reality. This is only possible with help of working girls one way or another. After all working girls or not, you got to invest money and some effort into fucking beautiful girls, it is just that with working girls, it is better, never age, cheaper and effort is much less and it is secure thing for life! But with wife. It become shit soon or later, most of time soon few years into marriage and you cannot change or cancel, so it is bad deal junk bond called wife LOL.

[QUOTE=UltraHappy;2175977]Ukrainians don't have a right to work in EU. So, the FKKs can't hire them.[/QUOTE]Technically, they can't register as a prostitute in Germany so the FKK / Sauna Clubs can't allow them as female guests that are allowed to independently practice prostitution at the club.

[QUOTE=UltraHappy;2175977]Ukrainians don't have a right to work in EU.[/QUOTE]But they can be found in Warsaw for sometimes reasonable prices and still traditional high class services which in Germany we were used to get until 2012.

[QUOTE=Tedesco;2176059]But they can be found in Warsaw for sometimes reasonable prices and still traditional high class services which in Germany we were used to get until 2012.[/QUOTE]Where in Warsaw?

[QUOTE=MrHo;2176073]Where in Warsaw?[/QUOTE]Warsaw is a town in Indiana, United States, LOL.

[QUOTE=PahllusMaximus;2175987]Hi and ho, ho, ho, hah hah to all the ho's! I am sadly forced to admit there is truth that most humans are treacherous, weak etc, and women play that more because they are a perishable asset in re productivity and looks and have to make up for lack of power with cunning. Looks and holding a man really matters to them. Women do try to undermine male independence, and they also gaslight reality. They may not have our physical bulk, but like a cat, the scratches go deep and get infected. Part of this is also tied up with the marriage fairytale story and bitterness at dashed expectations.

The point is that unless a woman is truly a trusted friend with tons of stuff in common outside of the bedroom who makes you laugh, then the old adage that if it flies, floats or fucks, then rent. Do not buy it. Holds true.

A good WG is an actress who understands it is playtime and she stars in her role and needs to put on a good show. A more permanent woman has a legal put option and does not have to try so hard. I'll add to Mr. Ho's observations: most married men complain their wives are like sexless sisters.[/QUOTE]PM's last paragraph should be framed and hung in every government building issuing marriage licenses. Accompanied by a pic of Mr Ho, on his mongering trip to Bruggen, entering GT and smiling. But seriously, I wish my father had told me this when I was too young and marrying a woman who became my sister after just a few years of marriage.

Too all (still) unmarried man: keep your status, keep your dignity, resist pressure, and unite against corrupt, abusive, and unjust "institute of marriage". Having a girlfriend is okay as long as it doesn't involve joint bank accounts / credit cards / car loans / mortgages, and pregnancies.

And, BTW, mongering (read: having normal and fun sex with many attractive and friendly women) is much more difficult when you are married. Read my posts and learn from my experience, LOL.

[QUOTE=Tedesco;2176059]But they can be found in Warsaw for sometimes reasonable prices and still traditional high class services which in Germany we were used to get until 2012.[/QUOTE]The original question was why aren't they working in FKKs. The fact that Ukrainians are illegally working in Poland and elsewhere after entering on a limited tourist visa is not really useful to addressing that question. Yes, we are all aware that people entering somewhere on a tourist visa can violate the terms of their tourist visa and work somewhere illegally. That however won't help the illegal worker get employment at an establishment that is subject to a high risk of police inspections that includes screenings for immigration violations.

[QUOTE=UltraHappy;2176260]The original question was why aren't they working in FKKs. The fact that Ukrainians are illegally working in Poland and elsewhere after entering on a limited tourist visa is not really useful to addressing that question. Yes, we are all aware that people entering somewhere on a tourist visa can violate the terms of their tourist visa and work somewhere illegally. That however won't help the illegal worker get employment at an establishment that is subject to a high risk of police inspections that includes screenings for immigration violations.[/QUOTE]Whilst it doesn't make a difference to the FKK scenario, Ukrainians do have temporary employment rights in Poland.

[URL]http://www.migrant.info.pl/Documents_entitling_a_foreigner_to_work_in_Poland.html[/URL]

Is there a club that has non-smoking apart from Mainhatten in Frankfurt (smokers room that is leaky) ? I don't want second hand smoke and lung damage with fiends puffing away on their hookahs and so on. I suspect the type of girls who work at clubs mostly have brains wired for reward centers with gambling and smoking and short term gratification. The girls need to suck on other things. There is nothing worse than kissing an ashtray.

How many weeks are you going to spend inside the club as you're afraid to get lung damage? It's summer, stay outside most of the time and take the girl to a room with a window. Otherwise in Hessen only Mainhattan and Palace are non smoking with the door to the smoking room mostly open.

[QUOTE=PahllusMaximus;2176356]Is there a club that has non-smoking apart from Mainhatten in Frankfurt (smokers room that is leaky) ? I don't want second hand smoke and lung damage with fiends puffing away on their hookahs and so on. I suspect the type of girls who work at clubs mostly have brains wired for reward centers with gambling and smoking and short term gratification. The girls need to suck on other things. There is nothing worse than kissing an ashtray.[/QUOTE]Palace in Frankfurt.

Samya in Cologne.

Acapulco in Velbert near Dusseldorf.

Yin Yang in Roermond, NL.

Probably many others I don't visit.

[QUOTE=Samplerr;2176281]Whilst it doesn't make a difference to the FKK scenario, Ukrainians do have temporary employment rights in Poland.

[URL]http://www.migrant.info.pl/Documents_entitling_a_foreigner_to_work_in_Poland.html[/URL][/QUOTE]Ah, good to know Samplerr. Thanks for the follow-up. Next you will have to teach us where we find all the Ukrainians in Poland.

Too bad prostitution is technically illegal in Poland. The thought of sitting alone in my hotel room in Poland while I scour web sites to call escorts over doesn't sound all that appealing, especially with FKKs so close by in Germany.

[QUOTE=UltraHappy;2176401]Ah, good to know Samplerr. Thanks for the follow-up. Next you will have to teach us where we find all the Ukrainians in Poland.

Too bad prostitution is technically illegal in Poland. The thought of sitting alone in my hotel room in Poland while I scour web sites to call escorts over doesn't sound all that appealing, especially with FKKs so close by in Germany.[/QUOTE]I posted about this a few times already.

[QUOTE=Chongmal;2176035]Technically, they can't register as a prostitute in Germany so the FKK / Sauna Clubs can't allow them as female guests that are allowed to independently practice prostitution at the club.[/QUOTE]Thank you for this explain as to why no lovely Ukraine girls at FKK. So why EU not allow the country Ukraine for join EU? If Germany FKK start feature beautiful Ukraine girl, it is paradise then.

I went to both Kiev and Bucharest before, but one thing I noticed is that romanian is hotter in german FKK than romanian escort etc scene.

Basically what these girls do is to tute in Germany, make significant amount of money and back in their home country many of these girls who are organized drive her Audi or BMW medium nice car, even has her own business and live like a trophy girl who worked in restaurant business in Germany making good money kind of pretending character. So these girls are tute in Germany and trophy girl in their home town, hence hard to find stunner tute in Romania or Ukraine simply because society tend to be small and they do not want reputation as tute in their home town, so they go to Germany etc abroad to tute and make her money.

It is funny even with tute it is like marriage. You marry girl thinking she is an angel, but she is not and was not. Back in their home town, these girls are considered as trophy girls but in reality she is merely a tute in Germany LOL I always find these extreme contrast amusing LOL especially when I see some FKK girls who added me on facebook etc with her husband and kids all looking happy with kisses. Only if they know her mouth has been eating my cock and licking my anal in Germany LOL.

It is like arbitrage but with girl LOL she is worth a lot back home, in FKK, she is 50 euro per 30 min for us mongers LOL.

[QUOTE=Bfsie;2175455]You are absolutely correct. But I think that FKK mongers would prefer not to know the reason. I have read somewhere that some posters think Ukrainian girls would flood into FKK clubs if they were allowed to work in Germany. It won't happen and Romanian WGs will still dominate the scene in FKK clubs even if Ukrainian girls are allowed to work in sex industry in Germany.[/QUOTE]I prefer to know reason why Ukraine girl would not work in FKK even if Ukraine country join EU. Please to explain me?

Is Romanian pimp monopoly on FKK so strong they will not nicely let Ukraine into FKK business? If Ukraine join EU and then Ukraine girl start work at FKK, perhaps there will fight and war between Romanian and Ukraine pimp? I thought many FKK own by Turkish business men.

[QUOTE=UltraHappy;2176401]Ah, good to know Samplerr. Thanks for the follow-up. Next you will have to teach us where we find all the Ukrainians in Poland.

Too bad prostitution is technically illegal in Poland. The thought of sitting alone in my hotel room in Poland while I scour web sites to call escorts over doesn't sound all that appealing, especially with FKKs so close by in Germany.[/QUOTE]German FKK platform is by far the best invention for Men. It changed men's life to the level of Ipod change the world of music.

[QUOTE=UltraHappy;2176401]Ah, good to know Samplerr. Thanks for the follow-up. Next you will have to teach us where we find all the Ukrainians in Poland.

Too bad prostitution is technically illegal in Poland. The thought of sitting alone in my hotel room in Poland while I scour web sites to call escorts over doesn't sound all that appealing, especially with FKKs so close by in Germany.[/QUOTE]But it is not illegal in Czech Republic, and the same rules applies there. Although there are not as many Ukrainians in Czech rep, it is an opening.

[QUOTE=Jolokia;2176434]I prefer to know reason why Ukraine girl would not work in FKK even if Ukraine country join EU. Please to explain me?

Is Romanian pimp monopoly on FKK so strong they will not nicely let Ukraine into FKK business? If Ukraine join EU and then Ukraine girl start work at FKK, perhaps there will fight and war between Romanian and Ukraine pimp? I thought many FKK own by Turkish business men.[/QUOTE]Crude scenarios you are inventing here. Basically they wouldn't work for 50€/30 min. That's why Ukrainian girls would rather work in a country or segment with higher pricing.

[QUOTE=RogueNation;2176714]Crude scenarios you are inventing here. Basically they wouldn't work for 50/30 min. That's why Ukrainian girls would rather work in a country or segment with higher pricing.[/QUOTE]Then why do you not see Ukrainians in Switzerland when they command 280-500 Francs per hour. Even after taxes they are still making 150-350 Francs per hour. As we know working in FKKs come all with the safety of a central facility and with it the ability to easily take multiple rooms per day without scheduling appointments, working with an agency, or maintaining webpages.

I don't buy the not working for lower rates explanation especially since Romania is a much richer country than the Ukraine.

[QUOTE=RogueNation;2176714]Crude scenarios you are inventing here. Basically they wouldn't work for 50/30 min. That's why Ukrainian girls would rather work in a country or segment with higher pricing.[/QUOTE]Well then I hope Zurich will put the hurdle down for Ukrainian women to come and work.

[QUOTE=RogueNation;2176714]Crude scenarios you are inventing here. Basically they wouldn't work for 50/30 min. That's why Ukrainian girls would rather work in a country or segment with higher pricing.[/QUOTE]Where I live, the Ukrainians undercut the Romanians as of late. I don't know which planet you live on, but has there been an invasion of Crimea on yours? And have you seen any large fluctuations on the Ukrainian hryvna the past few years? 10 years ago I would agree with you, but times have changed.

I begin to think United stunners from German FKK are more or less gathered in globe Zurich and line up seems to change a lot in globe Zurich which means to provide you varieties of different stunners on each fly in visit to Globe Zurich if you are fly in monger like me. And at Globe Zurich, 30 min is really 30 min where as in Germany 1 hour is like 40 min or 50 min depending on girls LOL.

So baring this above in mind, if you are not option type like CIM and anal, it is actually better and more financially efficient to go to globe Zurich than German FKK given that girls do hard up selling now in most mega clubs in Germany.

NRW still got hope and for me NRW can be good use for CIM dominated sessions with BBBJ. And use Globe Zurich for good nice 30 min proper fuck session with stunners.

I have been to Globe on Sunday and line up was good, but not as good as expected with limited numbers of girls, but I got to say service was amazing as I was told, plus it was Sunday line up, so I assume that was low line up that I experienced, this was in 2015. From Dusseldorf to Zurich flight is not even 100 euro and I think it is good to do combination of 3 days NRW and one night at Zurich which gives me 2 full globe Zurich days.

Pinch is a chance and this BBBJ law and current up selling at german FKK move my ass to think about travel plan and nrw and zurich is good combination, each city offering best of what they do one being CIM session and another one offering good proper session with stunner.

[QUOTE=MrHo;2176801]Well then I hope Zurich will put the hurdle down for Ukrainian women to come and work.[/QUOTE]Girls don't have to be registered if they don't work more than 90 days in Switzerland, that's why Mio. De keep on touring at Globe, but can't return to her fans at GT, even she preferred GT where she was more free for schedule, but she doesn't want to register in Germany when she doesn't want to register in Switzerland.

Even big money in Swiss clubs, I'm only a small money client with my 6 visits in April, with only 1 hour rooms, not paying for companionship drinking a bottle, not booking girls on desk, as superstar showgirl Selina. Ro asked me to book her after she was so hot from my foreplay, but also mostly Romanians, not many Germans, Russians are more rare than lovely pandas.

Romanians make now FKK land in Germany, Austria and Switzerland, with Bulgarians for AO. Russians and Ukrainians are on escort business in Italy, mainly Milano and Roma, in Paris where about 300 escorts, a bit in London where used to be also a lot of Polish.

But we can think about how a Romanian girl at school in Brasov or Galatz, find address of LR, or Sharks, or even Globe? On her own? Dreaming about from her little girl bed? Like I dream about my mountains? Or I dream in my bed at home about clubs and all my girls, because only dreams, I never touched any classy Eve, at LR, at World, when I look for woman behavior, not prostitute behavior.

I am thinking of visit FKK sharks or oase in the ramadan at 7 in June.

I heard once that in that time a lot of girls are missing, can someone here tell me how it is in this period of time?

Is it worth visit?

[QUOTE=Sirioja;2177556]Girls don't have to be registered if they don't work more than 90 days in Switzerland, that's why Mio. De keep on touring at Globe, but can't return to her fans at GT, even she preferred GT where she was more free for schedule, but she doesn't want to register in Germany when she doesn't want to register in Switzerland.

Even big money in Swiss clubs, I'm only a small money client with my 6 visits in April, with only 1 hour rooms, not paying for companionship drinking a bottle, not booking girls on desk, as superstar showgirl Selina. Ro asked me to book her after she was so hot from my foreplay, but also mostly Romanians, not many Germans, Russians are more rare than lovely pandas.[/QUOTE]Well at Globe Zurich, I will only do 30 min session mostly and some 1 hour session. But for me full 30 min is enough most of time and in globe 30 min is really 30 min and I don't need to pay attention to my watch.

Where as in Germany 30 min is like 20 min and 1 hour is like 47 min if you don't pay attention LOL I like stress free feeling of globe Zurich knowing I will get what I want and none of let see if she will perform good etc.

Nrw and Zurich combination is good one.

Nrw got it uses for me like CIM and Zurich got it uses for me like good secure 30 min session with stunner level girls.

I only been to globe on Sunday, so I presume weekdays, line up is more and better.

[QUOTE=MrHo;2177402]I begin to think United stunners from German FKK are more or less gathered in globe Zurich and line up seems to change a lot in globe Zurich which means to provide you varieties of different stunners on each fly in visit to Globe Zurich if you are fly in monger like me. And at Globe Zurich, 30 min is really 30 min where as in Germany 1 hour is like 40 min or 50 min depending on girls LOL.

So baring this above in mind, if you are not option type like CIM and anal, it is actually better and more financially efficient to go to globe Zurich than German FKK given that girls do hard up selling now in most mega clubs in Germany.

NRW still got hope and for me NRW can be good use for CIM dominated sessions with BBBJ. And use Globe Zurich for good nice 30 min proper fuck session with stunners.

I have been to Globe on Sunday and line up was good, but not as good as expected with limited numbers of girls, but I got to say service was amazing as I was told, plus it was Sunday line up, so I assume that was low line up that I experienced, this was in 2015. From Dusseldorf to Zurich flight is not even 100 euro and I think it is good to do combination of 3 days NRW and one night at Zurich which gives me 2 full globe Zurich days.

Pinch is a chance and this BBBJ law and current up selling at german FKK move my ass to think about travel plan and nrw and zurich is good combination, each city offering best of what they do one being CIM session and another one offering good proper session with stunner.[/QUOTE]Still few pretty, real GFE girls in Germany, very honest about time and money. Just have to find them.

Of course, Globe is high level. Wellcum also worth for beauties, higher than GT, LR, Sharks or Oase.

Well, Stormy Daniels was on Saturday Night Live. The issue is a photo of how small and flaccid it is which is why they are so anxious to make pay offs. I know this is true because I made it up just now. However, she really was on SNL just now. Looks quite feisty and fun, would love to see her.

Seriously though, this marks the beginning of a sex prohibition in the USA, which is no so bad for NE, but sucks for the West Coast, 12 hours to Germany or 16 to most of Asia. We do have Tijuana or Cabos, but really, why is this illegal in the first place. By all means ban trafficking minors. But not by shutting down things indiscriminately.

Why, why, why?

[QUOTE=Sirioja;2177556]But we can think about how a Romanian girl at school in Brasov or Galatz, find address of LR, or Sharks, or even Globe? On her own? Dreaming about from her little girl bed? Like I dream about my mountains? Or I dream in my bed at home about clubs and all my girls, because only dreams, I never touched any classy Eve, at LR, at World, when I look for woman behavior, not prostitute behavior.[/QUOTE]Networking.

[QUOTE=PahllusMaximus;2177827]Well, Stormy Daniels was on Saturday Night Live. The issue is a photo of how small and flaccid it is which is why they are so anxious to make pay offs. I know this is true because I made it up just now. However, she really was on SNL just now. Looks quite feisty and fun, would love to see her.

Seriously though, this marks the beginning of a sex prohibition in the USA, which is no so bad for NE, but sucks for the West Coast, 12 hours to Germany or 16 to most of Asia. We do have Tijuana or Cabos, but really, why is this illegal in the first place. By all means ban trafficking minors. But not by shutting down things indiscriminately.

Why, why, why?[/QUOTE]She does look good, quite a funny skit. Trump love him or hate him sure has made watching SNL great since he announced his intentions to run. Nonstop laughs. NE def has a nice easy quick almost commuter flight across the pond and depending where in NE, Upstate NY and the Great Lakes Region those guys have options from Windsor (I used to love that place especially when the Canadian $ was in the toilet in the mid 90's) to Toronto, Niagra and Montreal especially.

Several sites shut down by choice, some sites have closed new memberships only and continue to run and down here we have our own site. The big sites are down but many regional boards remain functional. One of the ' big two' is planning on reopening soon. It is a matter of time until law enforcement from the municipal level and county up to the state starting having to deal with more street action and crime and other illegal activities that accompany it. One of my Queens stays at a shit hotel off one of the SW areas and I saw many more than usual. These are the backpage / Craigslist girls adding to the SW numbers.

Worst case scenario ( we survived before the internet ) and doubt many on here unless they are older (like me) and mongered in the 1980's and very early 90's remember having to resort to the Yellow Pages or having to get an alternative newspaper (Chicago Reader, Baltimore City Paper etc) leaving your number on a beeper and waiting for a call back in order to get pussy. Good times were had still. Even AO was found in the Yellow Pages.

We will be ok in the USA but either way the world is our oyster, plenty places to go as boards or no boards here this country is still a sexual prison.

If it weren't illegal, then men would have no more money left to buy fancy cars to impress the ladies, and they would have no money left over to donate to all the charlatan mega-churches out there. So, it has to be illegal to ensure that men are spending all their money on consumer goods and donating to churches.

[QUOTE=PahllusMaximus;2177827]Well, Stormy Daniels was on Saturday Night Live. The issue is a photo of how small and flaccid it is which is why they are so anxious to make pay offs. I know this is true because I made it up just now. However, she really was on SNL just now. Looks quite feisty and fun, would love to see her.

Seriously though, this marks the beginning of a sex prohibition in the USA, which is no so bad for NE, but sucks for the West Coast, 12 hours to Germany or 16 to most of Asia. We do have Tijuana or Cabos, but really, why is this illegal in the first place. By all means ban trafficking minors. But not by shutting down things indiscriminately.

Why, why, why?[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=UltraHappy;2177842]and donating to churches.[/QUOTE]Just not Joel Osteen's!

Speaking of money to impress the ladies it seems guys are getting laid off the sugardaddy / baby sites left and right. ' Overnight' almost girls are no longer looking for mid / long relationships but are open to short term (hour) get to know you meetings. Seems at least here the girls will ask for $500 but are happy with $300. Most go over in time if they like you hoping you come back, just about all are bareback and the guys doing so say they are paying about $100 more than they used to for their girls if not the same and the quality is much higher and supply endless. The girls are also fucking more than one a day, two guys I know fucked the same one found out a few days later when comparing notes and yes I signed up on one and she will be my first PM once I am on.

May as well roll the dice, nothing to lose at this point. The more irons in the fire the better.

Church attendance is dying. There was a poll in WSJ which said less than 20% attend Church on a weekly basis now. I have no idea how many are still donating, but it has got to be pretty small number now. And as these hypocrites praise the lord on one side and cheer on Trump as he cuts funding for children's healthcare on the other, the chance that church donations will go up is getting slimmer by the day.

Anyway, backpage was shutdown and I thought it was mostly a bunch of skanks on that site. Never used it myself. What else is down due to Fosta?

[QUOTE=Holonia;2177808]I am thinking of visit FKK sharks or oase in the ramadan at 7 in June.

I heard once that in that time a lot of girls are missing, can someone here tell me how it is in this period of time?

Is it worth visit?[/QUOTE]Ramadan doesn't affect Hessen clubs at all. It only affects clubs extremely heavy with Turkish clientele where the girls know that business will be slow and thus take time off. Clubs like Acapulco are notoriously bad during Ramadan. I'the imagine Samya and Mondial are also heavily affected.

[QUOTE=Takedown;2177861]Ramadan doesn't affect Hessen cubs..... imagine Samya and Mondial are also heavily affected.[/QUOTE]Yesterday a regular client of Samya told me that meanwhile the significance of Turkish customers has switched in favor of the Asian ones who seem to like this place a lot. Concerning Mondial I have no clue. In surroundings of Frankfurt however the customers' structure is diversified in a way that there are always enough punters balancing the prey for girls.

[QUOTE=Tedesco;2177993]Yesterday a regular client of Samya told me that meanwhile the significance of Turkish customers has switched in favor of the Asian ones who seem to like this place a lot. Concerning Mondial I have no clue. In surroundings of Frankfurt however the customers' structure is diversified in a way that there are always enough punters balancing the prey for girls.[/QUOTE]I have noticed this too. And not just with Asians, but also with American tourists. And I wonder why Samya seems to be the favoured NRW club among the Asians. The place is very crammed up and the men's locker area smells like shit. The food is also below average for an FKK. But perhaps the social side of Samya trumps it all. The density forces through more intimacy with the girls outside of the rooms, and the dancing routines makes it seem more natural and less orchestrated.

Personally I prefer clubs with more space and air, and a bit better ambience and food. But I see the draw here for some. Now if only the lineup had a bit more diversity I'd knock it up a notch too. For me only 2-3 girls have done it so far after 7-8 visits. The management is very good at Samya however.

[QUOTE=Sirioja;2177823]Still few pretty, real GFE girls in Germany, very honest about time and money. Just have to find them.

Of course, Globe is high level. Wellcum also worth for beauties, higher than GT, LR, Sharks or Oase.[/QUOTE]Wellcum is getting my attention but for non driver like me, it is impossible level to leach Wellcum.

Globe is do-able.

And where siri? I do not see those stunners that you see LOL.

I never see sharks as stunner club somehow, I found only one beautiful girl. Oase I did find stunner, but service level was limited, LR solid service club and I liked two girls so far, GT has some good looking girls, but stunner are often taken by few regulars whole days in advance, but yeah I will find solution to that somehow because I do like NRW for my own use like CIM since it is 25 euro and good excuse to get BBBJ which you still get in nrw anyways.

I have to say nrw is much more honest than other region for time and service, oceans are exception, but I do like Oceans too.

Just got back from a 3 week trip from Europe and visited Sharks, Oase, Globe, and Artemis. I have been to Sharks twice and Oase once before this trip. Personally I like Sharks the most out of all of the ones I visited. I like the set up of Sharks, how it has high ceilings and is open and with a bar in the middle. The outside is nice too, and the bbq they serve is edible. The only thing is that sometimes it can get hot inside so I just wear a towel. And the ratio to guys to girls is always nice. Monday I went and I counted about 40 girls and way less men, plus it was 20 euro off the cover charge which was nice. The girls at Sharks don't bother you, they leave you alone. From what I got, BBBJ is normal there with the price, but me and my friends always go for an hour so maybe that is included. But of course CIM is 50 extra.

Oase was ok for me, girls bother the crap out of you. There was this one blonde girl who kept nagging me since I sat down and I told her I wanted to relax and she kept bugging me. Me annd my friends got a bottle of liquor there and had some redbull and cola and she asked if she could have a red bull and I said yes if you leave me alone and she got mad and said I was arrogant loll. 2 girls told me I was arrogant this trip and I just wanted to be left alone. There were a couple of girls who came chatted with me to session and wanted 150 for an hour, and I told them nope, 100 for one hour BBBJ, DFK, and they quickly agreed. It was ok there, my friend sessioned with a girl who let him do it without a condom with creampie for no extra cost LOL. Guess if they like you and are attracted to you then its a plus.

Next up was Globe, we went on a Monday and Tuesday and it was really dead. Not many guys, but around 20 girls. 90 switz franc to get in and 140 for half an hour. They say once you touch the girl your 30 minutes starts. That 140 includes DFK, eating pussy, and BBBJ, 50 more for CIM. I had 3 girls and enjoyed 2 of my sessions. They also can use the same shower as you, so if they like you they will shower with you after. I had sessioned with one girl and I came out and they had a show on stage with 4 girls and they were kissing and licking each other out, turned me on right away so I went and got another session right away haha. On Tuesday, they said they close all the rooms and only sex is allowed in the open from 2-9 pm. There was this asian guy that was having sex with a girl right in the middle of the stage on Monday, it was funny. The girls there look like they enjoy being there. They were playing music and like 10 of them were dancing on the stage together having a grand time. Overall I thought the club was ok, the price for half an hour is a killer with entrance fee.

Went to Artemis twice, the first time I went by myself. It was 60 euro for half hour, and if you want DFK, pussy eating and BBBJ it is 50 euro extra. I went around and asked a couple of girls if kissing is included with the 60 euro and they said 50 euro more. I was in shock, I guess because I was use to getting it included from Sharks and Oase haha. I don't like how the club is set up, low ceilings and it feels everyone is bunched together. The last day I went there on a Friday, it was a bunch of guys! Like twice as many guys as girls. And when you buy drinks, they barely put any liquor in it and a shit load of soda. Don't think I would come back to this club unless I'm bored. The girls are not that great looking although I did have a great session with one Romanian girl I forgot her name.

I will be back to Sharks, love it there. And they actually give you a good amount of liquor with your drink. Was going to try Palace but opted for Sharks.

[QUOTE=Sho423;2178077]Oase was ok for me, girls bother the crap out of you. There was this one blonde girl who kept nagging me since I sat down and I told her I wanted to relax and she kept bugging me. Me annd my friends got a bottle of liquor there and had some redbull and cola and she asked if she could have a red bull and I said yes if you leave me alone and she got mad and said I was arrogant loll. 2 girls told me I was arrogant this trip and I just wanted to be left alone.[/QUOTE]Oh, don't bother with that "arrogant" line of BS. Happens to me about once or twice a trip too. These are tutes who simply aren't good sales people. Guys don't want to be "accosted" as soon as they walk in. And if you're politely told "no thank you", then you aren't making any headway by simply coming back again and again and pestering a monger. For some girls, a big part of it is ego too. They can't stand or don't like being turned down and are determined to change your mind. Don't like being rejected? No? Well walk a mile in a man's shoes for a while! Have to admit that sometimes it feels good to turn a pretty girl down, which is essentially saying to her, "No, I don't want to fuck you". And that's the last thing "pretty girl" expects to hear from a man. Especially one standing there in just a bath robe or wearing a towel LOL!

Anyone knows how much a taxi from Frankfurt Airport to Sharks will be?

[QUOTE=Hermann666;2178148]Anyone knows how much a taxi from Frankfurt Airport to Sharks will be?[/QUOTE]If I remember properly it is around 50 Euros, however I usually take the 9 Euro bus to Darmstadt from the Airport, it is right there outside a terminal building and then from Darmstadt Center it takes around 10 Euros to get to Sharks, so all in all it is 20 Euros instead of 50, if I remember correctly, it is certainly not much more than that.

[QUOTE=DeltaIndigo;2178150]If I remember properly it is around 50 Euros, however I usually take the 9 Euro bus to Darmstadt from the Airport, it is right there outside a terminal building and then from Darmstadt Center it takes around 10 Euros to get to Sharks, so all in all it is 20 Euros instead of 50, if I remember correctly, it is certainly not much more than that.[/QUOTE]Thanks. I will check out the buss.

[QUOTE=Sho423;2178077]Next up was Globe, we went on a Monday and Tuesday and it was really dead. Not many guys, but around 20 girls. 90 switz franc to get in and 140 for half an hour. They say once you touch the girl your 30 minutes starts. That 140 includes DFK, eating pussy, and BBBJ, 50 more for CIM. I had 3 girls and enjoyed 2 of my sessions. They also can use the same shower as you, so if they like you they will shower with you after. I had sessioned with one girl and I came out and they had a show on stage with 4 girls and they were kissing and licking each other out, turned me on right away so I went and got another session right away haha. On Tuesday, they said they close all the rooms and only sex is allowed in the open from 2-9 pm. There was this asian guy that was having sex with a girl right in the middle of the stage on Monday, it was funny. The girls there look like they enjoy being there. They were playing music and like 10 of them were dancing on the stage together having a grand time. Overall I thought the club was ok, the price for half an hour is a killer with entrance fee.

Went to Artemis twice, the first time I went by myself. It was 60 euro for half hour, and if you want DFK, pussy eating and BBBJ it is 50 euro extra. I went around and asked a couple of girls if kissing is included with the 60 euro and they said 50 euro more..[/QUOTE]Artemis used to be really good club from 2009 till like 2015, but I stopped going there in 2015 due to same reasons as you mentioned and mostly radical decline in line up quality optically.

How did you find line up of globe Zurich? Many stunners there to your eyes?

[QUOTE=MrHo;2178038]I have to say nrw is much more honest than other region for time and service, oceans are exception, but I do like Oceans too.[/QUOTE]Some NRW clubs keep out the undesirable riff raff customers, and that makes those clubs much better. True.

[QUOTE=McAdonis;2178251]You are a tourist on holiday, presumably without any social, family or work commitments in Europe, so 12-14 hours in an FKK club is no problem for you. Most casual mongers can't sneak away for such durations. Consider the cost-benefit analysis for a married German man who mongers once a month. Let say he only has a two hour time window to monger on a Friday afternoon.

Option 1: he goes to his favorite escort apartment situated in a discrete building with no neon-lights and no pictures of naked ladies. He's greeted by a receptionist that introduces him to 5-10 WGs. He chooses one for 150 EUR per hour, opts for 50 EUR worth of extras. After the session, receptionist ensures his experience with WG was satisfactory. Total cost: 200 EUR.

Option 2: he goes to Sharks. Parks several blocks away. Walks past SEAT dealership's parking lot, constantly worried that someone he knows will see him. His worst nightmare is to see his father-in-law pulling out of the Hornbach. Pays his 65 EUR entry. Chooses a WG. Pays her 100 EUR per hour. About 50 percent chance he steps on a landmine. Total cost: 165 EUR.

Honestly, option one was always his best choice. But he mixed Sharks in 1-2 times a year because he felt it was worth the risk to be able to choose from 100 WGs. But since the services have deteriorated, he is starting to re-think that logic.

Like you, I am not confident that the trend will reverse. With the previous complainers-well they always complained. I am started to hear complaints from mongers who I perceive as the easy-going type. Guys who used to be huge fans of Sharks believe Sharks is no longer the safehaven it once was. That it joins Palace, Mainhattan, and Oase.[/QUOTE]A while ago, when there was a discussion about a bunch of locals who come in on Sundays, lounge around all day and night, hardly take any sessions -- I asked what is the point about wasting 50 E entry fee on lousy food and a so so pool and a loud smoky lounge, and someone (it might have been you McA -- let's face it, it is always just you and me getting into these endless wonkish discussions that have nothing to do with Ramona taking just half the dick into the mouth during BJ or Jenny arches her back too much while doing doggie, LOL-- if I have to guess, you must be doing policy or strategy analysis for a living :-) said "but the locals are not like you and me, they want to come in, relax, meet friends, eat and drink; fucking is less important to some of them".

Now, we are saying the locals want to hurry up their fucking because they don't have enough time to relax / eat / meet people, because they have a wife at home and father in law next door to the club, hence they might logically prefer the RLD over FKK.

I don't doubt there are both types of locals. Just as there are tourists who want to go up and down stairs and those who want to sit next to the Sharks waterfall and watch Steffi's super nice derriere all day.

But the market is the sum total of all these people. And in that market, for a while, price is either going up, or service going down for a given price. We can take this or that sub-group and present anecdotal examples and forecasts. But on the whole, the trend is one way, and that is not in the direction to the liking of most mongers here.

[QUOTE=Pistons;2178018]I have noticed this too. And not just with Asians, but also with American tourists. And I wonder why Samya seems to be the favoured NRW club among the Asians. The place is very crammed up and the men's locker area smells like shit. The food is also below average for an FKK. But perhaps the social side of Samya trumps it all. The density forces through more intimacy with the girls outside of the rooms, and the dancing routines makes it seem more natural and less orchestrated.

Personally I prefer clubs with more space and air, and a bit better ambience and food. But I see the draw here for some. Now if only the lineup had a bit more diversity I'd knock it up a notch too. For me only 2-3 girls have done it so far after 7-8 visits. The management is very good at Samya however.[/QUOTE]Friendliness and party atmosphere largely due to good management are definitely good reasons for anyone to visit. I got very close to one WG there and was able to see how the manager is always watching, controlling the girls' behavior and how she spends her time. Girls there are on a very tight leash.

For tourist Asians, I think proximity to the city center is also a major reason.

LR is the other club just as easily accessed by train with similar optics and layout, but Samya has many more girls. Oceans is the other easily accessed club and can have better optics than either but the average monger seems to have a poor service experience there.

Cheap entry, especially for a city club might also play a role.

[QUOTE=Jnpr30;2178279]Now, we are saying the locals want to hurry up their fucking because they don't have enough time to relax / eat / meet people, because they have a wife at home and father in law next door to the club, hence they might logically prefer the RLD over FKK.

I don't doubt there are both types of locals. Just as there are tourists who want to go up and down stairs and those who want to sit next to the Sharks waterfall and watch Steffi's super nice derriere all day.

But the market is the sum total of all these people. And in that market, for a while, price is either going up, or service going down for a given price. We can take this or that sub-group and present anecdotal examples and forecasts. But on the whole, the trend is one way, and that is not in the direction to the liking of most mongers here.[/QUOTE]I am with you on the long term trend. Prices for same service will continue to rise on average. I do have to interject that in the the short term, the price can lower the demand and thus increased the supply. This happened last year at Acapulco with girls dropping their failed BBBJ up charge. It also temporarily gave some relief at Oase 2 years ago when good service at Sharks and local boycott forced Oase girls to temporarily ease their upselling. At the very least, it forced the club to add happy hour entry and improve the food.

And yes most locals are the quick few hour types but there is a very noticeable group of lingerers that regularly occupy the same spot at clubs like Sharks, Living Room, and Golden Time.

[QUOTE=MyTwoInches;2178248]Some NRW clubs keep out the undesirable riff raff customers, and that makes those clubs much better. True.[/QUOTE]Well the thing is if it is to globe service level and price, I do not mind agreeing into some mild up selling, the problem is the following below when it comes to up selling in German FKK club especially recently.

Negotiations are annoying.

Some girls sometimes ask insane price like few hundred euro per hour. But this is very rare. I never came across it but I read different numbers like 300,400 euros per one hour on forum. Maximum I came across is 200 euro per one hour, which seems to be common in palace Frankfurt, they used to ask for 150 euro per one hour, now they increased it to 200 euro.

Let say you agree to mild upsell like 150 euro per one hour. The service level is not sure thing, she will DFK etc, but over all it is not to the level of globe, where services that I experiences are secured, but for 140 chf per 30 min where 30 min is 30 min and no negotiations.

All in all, when up selling became to this spread and this level, and expected to get worst, I would prefer where they open FKK club where that is more expensive but all services are secured and delivered in more price like globe. This also keeps clients who do not want to pay up away, so less competition and relax to have sessions with stunners, unlike gt.

More reasons law or clients give to girls, more they will use it to take money out of monger, which I do not mind, I am willing to buying myself into mild up selling in exchange for service, but deliver and secure the service to level of globe is what I mean.

I am glad that I experienced German FKK where you got the whole crazy sex package for just 60 euro per 30 min for few years back in the day when I began going to German FKK at Artemis Berlin. Now these golden era is gone and big question mark whether such luck going to come back again. I may come across some girls here and there who provide like I do still at LR, and sometimes GT, but in other establishment. They are becoming like globe without secure service. If you going to upsell, then deliver the same level.

[QUOTE=MrHo;2178223]Artemis used to be really good club from 2009 till like 2015, but I stopped going there in 2015 due to same reasons as you mentioned and mostly radical decline in line up quality optically.

How did you find line up of globe Zurich? Many stunners there to your eyes?[/QUOTE]I did not find any 10's, mostly 7's, a couple of 8's.

[QUOTE=Sho423;2178321]I did not find any 10's, mostly 7's, a couple of 8's.[/QUOTE]OK, thanks man, I may add Zurich with my next trip depending on cost, so good to hear feed back that lead to more motivation to go or not to go.

Visa, economical situation of the nation and culture of nations, platform to get them to legally working nation such as Germany with FKK format etc in this case plays big role in forming prostitutes aka working girls.

But why there is such a big concentration of Romanian prostitute followed by Bulgarians.

Beside above reasons, what cause such a big domination beside what I wrote on first line, I mean there are so many other poor nations in eastern Europe and also Greece had serious problem back in early 2010's, but I never hardly spotted big concentration of girls from other nations, but Romanians and Bulgarians.

I wonder why this is. I have to say they are country with many beautiful girls, so it is the right country for many of us monger, but it is amazing how Romanians and Bulgarians dominated most of line up throughout European legal brothels.

[QUOTE=Sho423;2178321]I did not find any 10's, mostly 7's, a couple of 8's.[/QUOTE]That's disappointing to hear. Globe is my next target destination. Personal tastes aside, do you find the pictures on the site accurate?

If pictures are accurate I would rate a good amount as 8+ for body, but seeing them in person and face is very important (which many are blocking face for privacy reasons).

[QUOTE=Jnpr30;2178279]A while ago, when there was a discussion about a bunch of locals who come in on Sundays, lounge around all day and night, hardly take any sessions -- I asked what is the point about wasting 50 E entry fee on lousy food and a so so pool and a loud smoky lounge, and someone (it might have been you McA -- let's face it, it is always just you and me getting into these endless wonkish discussions that have nothing to do with Ramona taking just half the dick into the mouth during BJ or Jenny arches her back too much while doing doggie, LOL-- if I have to guess, you must be doing policy or strategy analysis for a living :-) said "but the locals are not like you and me, they want to come in, relax, meet friends, eat and drink; fucking is less important to some of them".

Now, we are saying the locals want to hurry up their fucking because they don't have enough time to relax / eat / meet people, because they have a wife at home and father in law next door to the club, hence they might logically prefer the RLD over FKK.

I don't doubt there are both types of locals.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=Takedown;2178284]
And yes most locals are the quick few hour types but there is a very noticeable group of lingerers that regularly occupy the same spot at clubs like Sharks, Living Room, and Golden Time.[/QUOTE]As Takedown says, the locals who linger and are attending 30 plus times a year are a small but noticeable minority. Jnpr, are you telling me that every time you attend Sharks, you recognize the eighty percent of the clientele? There was the young Turk, and the guy Siri called the Asian hermaphrodyte, and a few more. But for every one of these hardcore local Germans there are six or seven casual local German mongers who have an outside life. And these guys may attend 1-5 times a year.

[QUOTE=MrHo;2178347]OK, thanks man, I may add Zurich with my next trip depending on cost, so good to hear feed back that lead to more motivation to go or not to go.[/QUOTE]No problem, the thing I liked about Globe was the lesbian show, but 30 minutes for 140 franc, those 30 minutes goes by pretty quick. So an hour is the way to go if money isn't an issue.

[QUOTE=Takedown;2178283] how the manager is always watching, controlling the girls' behavior and how she spends her time. Girls there are on a very tight leash.[/QUOTE]I guess, but to me this whole leash idea you have at GT and Samya only makes me feel the girls are acting extra much. So the chances of getting honesty falls dramatically.

[QUOTE=Pistons;2178567]I guess, but to me this whole leash idea you have at GT and Samya only makes me feel the girls are acting extra much. So the chances of getting honesty falls dramatically.[/QUOTE]They're hookers.

Culture, norms and religious beliefs are there to withhold people from acting out on their instincts. But when you have organized stakeholders trying to uproot these barriers on a country wide basis, the threshold for acting on instinct falls. As also seen in Thailand and to some degree Germany. The only reason these countries are held back from going even further up the liberal route is the international social sphere where they are in minority, and where the brainwashed are in majority. So why do people brainwash each others into norms and belief systems? Answer: to win wars and spread ones own genes as much as possible. The rest is strategy.

[URL]http://churchandstate.org.uk/2016/04/religion-oldest-weapon-of-mass-destruction-in-human-history/[/URL]

And so again this falls back on social anthropology. And forced brainwashing from childhood on what is right and wrong. A paradigm is hard to change.

[QUOTE=Sho423;2178532]No problem, the thing I liked about Globe was the lesbian show, but 30 minutes for 140 franc, those 30 minutes goes by pretty quick. So an hour is the way to go if money isn't an issue.[/QUOTE]Well yeah, if I find top stunner I would, but I would go one hour two cum session, I never really like too long session as it get bored a bit. 30 full min is good for me.

Lesbian show never turned me on actually, each their own, but many girl offer me in Germany as a upsell and I laugh it off LOL they are like we can do you erotic massage and lesbian show for 200 euro LOL I tell these girls, I have been in FKK for longer than you babies LOL.

[QUOTE=Takedown;2178284]I am with you on the long term trend. Prices for same service will continue to rise on average. I do have to interject that in the the short term, the price can lower the demand and thus increased the supply. This happened last year at Acapulco with girls dropping their failed BBBJ up charge. It also temporarily gave some relief at Oase 2 years ago when good service at Sharks and local boycott forced Oase girls to temporarily ease their upselling. At the very least, it forced the club to add happy hour entry and improve the food.

And yes most locals are the quick few hour types but there is a very noticeable group of lingerers that regularly occupy the same spot at clubs like Sharks, Living Room, and Golden Time.[/QUOTE]Temporary drop the up sell. Temporally is the problem part.

And I do not mind mild up sell if service is delivered, but nowadays these girls are beginning to ask for more or same price as globe Zurich. I laugh at their face.

[QUOTE=McAdonis;2178530]As Takedown says, the locals who linger and are attending 30 plus times a year are a small but noticeable minority. Jnpr, are you telling me that every time you attend Sharks, you recognize the eighty percent of the clientele? There was the young Turk, and the guy Siri called the Asian hermaphrodyte, and a few more. But for every one of these hardcore local Germans there are six or seven casual local German mongers who have an outside life. And these guys may attend 1-5 times a year.[/QUOTE]I have no idea who the truly representative locals are. I see approximately 15 to 20 faces that I can recognize and have seen before. Is that too many or too few? Anyway, the statements to the effect "locals want to take quickies and attend only a couple of times a year", and "locals like to come in, relax, use wellness and not much interested in fucking" were both yours. I truly have no insight into their behavior.

This whole thing started with the forecast that prices will comes down because demand will be depeessed, and I questioned it. At least till now, I see no evidence. Whether it happens in future, who knows?! In the Hessen clubs Or Artemis which I attend occasionally, there are always so many dudes and pricing is cosnsitently moving up. Of course if I prove to be wrong and I can get bbbj, bls, and other things from a super looker on the oase kino couches for 30 Euro, I will not be upset!

Only competitive advantage German FKK now has is amount of FKK and girls, but now quality and services decreased and price increased LOL. Oh also annoying negotiation increased also without secure delivery of service sometimes.

Solution is Zurich or mildly keep on talking to German FKK management which I do between session as I do have chit chat with desk about random things in life and FKK. They sound like they do actually care in some clubs, but caring never reflect on services etc. LOL.

Nrw is still safe, Hessen is out, Artemis Berlin is out.

Why nrw is exception remained in mystery, but I clearly see differences in service level in NRW and it is not just competition as Hessen got competition too.

[QUOTE=AbcInFKK;2178522]That's disappointing to hear. Globe is my next target destination. Personal tastes aside, do you find the pictures on the site accurate?

If pictures are accurate I would rate a good amount as 8+ for body, but seeing them in person and face is very important (which many are blocking face for privacy reasons).[/QUOTE]When I went to Globe, as far as body is concerned, site photo is quite accurate meaning I did not see any fat girl or ridiculously old girls, so globe management tend to care for some direction, before I go, I was told, globe only accept natural beauty girls by working girls in Germany, so it must have been true before, but when I went I did see some silicone, but over all line up was higher than German FKK, but it was not as what I was told or expected meaning all line up being stunner, but as for body, it is pretty good, face is different to what I expected except for two girls I found there. But I went on Sunday, so low line up day I guess.

Girls remember almost every guy they have been with. And so, even if prices goes up for one individual, it doesn't mean that it goes up for everyone. At some places it does, but not everywhere. Many girls are skilled at this type of micromanaging every possible customer, and some discuss it among themselves too. Aside from that, the market will eventually balance itself out, although smart girls who will make the most money will think for themselves and not be taught by whom they think are their friends among the other girls. After all, the highest earning FKK girl I know of has 0, zero squat friends among the other FKK girls. Most girls don't like girls who are smart and thinks for themselves. (Mandy, Liz and Marlyn may be noble exceptions. And perhaps the rare other girl who'm there usually aren't more then one or two of in most clubs).

[QUOTE=Pistons;2178723]Girls remember almost every guy they have been with. And so, even if prices goes up for one individual, it doesn't mean that it goes up for everyone. At some places it does, but not everywhere. Many girls are skilled at this type of micromanaging every possible customer, and some discuss it among themselves too. Aside from that, the market will eventually balance itself out, although smart girls who will make the most money will think for themselves and not be taught by whom they think are their friends among the other girls. After all, the highest earning FKK girl I know of has 0, zero squat friends among the other FKK girls. Most girls don't like girls who are smart and thinks for themselves. (Mandy, Liz and Marlyn may be noble exceptions. And perhaps the rare other girl who'm there usually aren't more then one or two of in most clubs).[/QUOTE]It sometimes surprise me when I go back to certain FKK, girls remember how much I paid last time and how long. The other thing, you pay more to other girls more, they also find out and ask the same pricing, so yes they do talk about clients payment schemes LOL.

I have to say though, once you get to know the girls a bit, they are fair enough and you can talk to them. I only met one girl in my time in FKK that is completely lunatic about prices and services, it was in Oase, some Hungarian girl. Funny, usually other than her, Hungarian girls are the among best provider in my FKK history like beautiful Geraldine in Artemis, who retired from industry.

[QUOTE=MrHo;2178690]Only competitive advantage German FKK now has is amount of FKK and girls, but now quality and services decreased and price increased LOL. Oh also annoying negotiation increased also without secure delivery of service sometimes.

Solution is Zurich or mildly keep on talking to German FKK management which I do between session as I do have chit chat with desk about random things in life and FKK. They sound like they do actually care in some clubs, but caring never reflect on services etc. LOL.

Nrw is still safe, Hessen is out, Artemis Berlin is out.

Why nrw is exception remained in mystery, but I clearly see differences in service level in NRW and it is not just competition as Hessen got competition too.[/QUOTE]Why is Hessen out? I do like NRW much more, but might do another trip to Frankfurt in the future for a chance. I still have some free entry cards for Oase.

I hope prices won't go up. Makes it less tempting to travel.

[QUOTE=Guy93;2178784]Why is Hessen out? I do like NRW much more, but might do another trip to Frankfurt in the future for a chance. I still have some free entry cards for Oase.

I hope prices won't go up. Makes it less tempting to travel.[/QUOTE]I still go to Hessen, I was in Frankfurt in December, but service level is higher in NRW, but if you pay up in palace, I always got my best service in palace and Artemis actually, but these two clubs are pay up and you get it in club in general.

Artemis used to be reasonable, but got worst than palace and I stopped going to artemis in 2015, but palace I still goto.

I just begin to hate all the annoying negotiation which you do not have much at NRW and also you get pretty much full service for 50 euro in NRW still even from good looking girls except oceans LOL.

[QUOTE=Pistons;2178723]Most girls don't like girls who are smart and thinks for themselves.[/QUOTE]But most guys do. I like a girl who can make up her own mind, it makes life much simpler. What I can't stand is girls who make decisions based on some group consensus. Or a hot chick who drags along her Dragon Friend, and you are supposed to be popular with the Dragon Friend before the hot chick will accept you. That's never going to happen, it's a fool's game.

There are various games that girls learn in real life and then take into the FKKs and they shouldn't.

It is better to have a girl like the Blessed Tree of Jordan, with luminous oils and surrounded by nothing for hundreds of miles. Hamdulillah!

[QUOTE=Jnpr30;2178669]In the Hessen clubs Or Artemis which I attend occasionally, there are always so many dudes and pricing is cosnsitently moving up. Of course if I prove to be wrong and I can get bbbj, bls, and other things from a super looker on the oase kino couches for 30 Euro, I will not be upset![/QUOTE]Never said prices would drop. But the prices can only consistently move up, if the prices of the direct competitors and substitutes go up.

[QUOTE=MrHo;2178696]When I went to Globe, as far as body is concerned, site photo is quite accurate meaning I did not see any fat girl or ridiculously old girls, so globe management tend to care for some direction, before I go, I was told, globe only accept natural beauty girls by working girls in Germany, so it must have been true before, but when I went I did see some silicone, but over all line up was higher than German FKK, but it was not as what I was told or expected meaning all line up being stunner, but as for body, it is pretty good, face is different to what I expected except for two girls I found there. But I went on Sunday, so low line up day I guess.[/QUOTE]Thanks for answering. The site pictures definitely see girls with silicone, good to know that pics are reliable. Love that pics actually reflect the girls instead of heavily photoshopped in the US. I had a session with an ex-globe at sharks few weeks ago. She said that management is tight on what the girls eat, salad only. Also that they didn't really have a choice in participating in public sex shows.

Guessing you mean face was not as pretty as you expected? It's really been the turn off for me as many bodies in Sharks and Oase can be 8/9, but the face around 6. So sad the ones that went for face surgeries, lip enhancement.

[QUOTE=McAdonis;2178843]Never said prices would drop. But the prices can only consistently move up, if the prices of the direct competitors and substitutes go up.[/QUOTE]Don't see prices dropping unless competition gets intense. With the internet, more and more people are finding out about these clubs (how I found out). The demand side will not go away as wealthy people fly in to partake. So unless there's a huge increase in good clubs, price doesn't seem to move. It's already surprising that price stays the same while inflation jacks everything else up.

This is also likely what happened to globe, as the 80 price I haven't seen a year or so ago and makes it much more tempting for me to visit globe.

[QUOTE=McAdonis;2178843]Never said prices would drop. But the prices can only consistently move up, if the prices of the direct competitors and substitutes go up.[/QUOTE]Well. Price increased, services decreased, stunners decreased are the recent combination ratio problem LOL.

[QUOTE=AbcInFKK;2178891]Thanks for answering. The site pictures definitely see girls with silicone, good to know that pics are reliable. Love that pics actually reflect the girls instead of heavily photoshopped in the US. I had a session with an ex-globe at sharks few weeks ago. She said that management is tight on what the girls eat, salad only. Also that they didn't really have a choice in participating in public sex shows.

Guessing you mean face was not as pretty as you expected? It's really been the turn off for me as many bodies in Sharks and Oase can be 8/9, but the face around 6. So sad the ones that went for face surgeries, lip enhancement..[/QUOTE]You got same problem as me, quite many body is near perfect for me, it is face that often is real problem. I used to find beautiful face girls, but recently, it is getting harder and harder.

One thing I did not like is lighting in main bar in Globe. It is bit dim and there is light magic, so watch out LOL. I liked lighting at upstairs eating area because you can see girls face well or also our changing room when they walk out of their changing room, you can see face well, but that is hard place to stay for long time.

I liked Sharks and LR as age of girls and service better, but hmmm faces were not bad, there is few things I do not like that spoil the whole face.

I actually tend to find most beautiful faces in artemis, palace and few times in gt, but mostly in first two clubs where plastic is norm. But do find natural beauty once in awhile, but now harder.

Hamburg is the region I have not adventured into and most beautiful face girls I found are German girls from hamburg, so I want to go but pricing there are same as globe now with upselling.

I did see pretty girls at globe, but the faces were not as I wanted, but they were not bad. It is not mostly stunners as I heard, I would say many 7 and 8, no 9 on my visit, but it was Sunday I went, so during weekdays, more lineup I think, am I right? Anybody?

Prostitute's price is not driven by market supply and demand as we understand it in economy. Not by market demand (men), the price is only decided by prostitute herself based on many issues such as her culture, view of her value, psychology, society and so on, Let me give you two examples first. A furniture store sells a table for 50 euro, but they couldn't sell it, so they lowered its price to 40 euro and then sold it for 40 euro. This is a typical market supply and demand example. Now another example, a girl in RLD (where she can freely decide her prices) asks for 50 euro for standard 30 min session, but no man bought her 30-min session, instead she will lower her 50-euro price for standard 30 min session, she quits (or will possibly lower her price to 40 euro only for 20-min (not 30-min) session). She will not lower her 50-euro price for standard 30-min session even if no man takes it.

In the case of FKK clubs, the WG in a FKK more or less happens to agree that FKK's price structure in which she works. If she didn't agree, the WG wouldn't work in that club and would look for another working place which has the same or similar price structure as hers. When (or if) you see the uptrend of the WG's prices and the downtrend of the WG's services in FKK, it is because she is adjusting her services or prices based on the change of her personal situation such as general economic inflation in economies which she lives in or is related to and so on, it is not because of the demand from men.

[QUOTE=Bfsie;2179044]In the case of FKK clubs, the WG in a FKK more or less happens to agree that FKK's price structure in which she works. If she didn't agree, the WG wouldn't work in that club and would look for another working place which has the same or similar price structure as hers. When (or if) you see the uptrend of the WG's prices and the downtrend of the WG's services in FKK, it is because she is adjusting her services or prices based on the change of her personal situation such as general economic inflation in economies which she lives in or is related to and so on, it is not because of the demand from men.[/QUOTE]Like Jnpr30 said, when there is a decrease in customers, many WGs choose to quit the profession. Or they move to another club, hoping that the clientele will be better. But they don't reduce their prices.

At ACA from Aug 2017 to November 2017, all the WGs unionized and tried to raise the prices. Since it is a remote club with no tourists, customers stopped attending. The WGs have since backed off and returned to old pricing. Maybe operators stepped in. Maybe "managers". Or maybe just pressure of knowing that they must provide for people back home (elderly parents, siblings, children).

Some mongers also believe that as a girl ages and she loses customers to younger WGs, she may feel need to improve her service. As you say "view of her own value" changes. So while she does not lower her rate from 50, she is willing to give more value to her customer.

[QUOTE=Bfsie;2179044]Prostitute's price is not driven by market supply and demand as we understand it in economy. Not by market demand (men), the price is only decided by prostitute herself based on many issues such as her culture, view of her value, psychology, society and so on, Let me give you two examples first. A furniture store sells a table for 50 euro, but they couldn't sell it, so they lowered its price to 40 euro and then sold it for 40 euro..[/QUOTE]Yeah agree, but it also depend on platform culture as well as law, meaning more freedom platform such as FKK or any hardware entities and laws give to prostitutes, more they will use to control mongers wallet.

In any establishments of any industries, there should be some rule and especially in brothel before, it was more like wild wild west where mongers ended up with some low quality girls with ripped off price, which is the case still in many countries, but German FKK revolutionized that by giving some set quality standard, which began to destroy since last years stupid laws.

Monger and prostitutes rules should be balanced to serve and protect both side, now prostitutes power over client is getting stronger in Germany too. Well in the worst case scenario we still got Zurich, which is higher in price, but quality of service is secured, that is all about Switzerland isn't it, expensive, but quality is there.

In some German FKK upselling is going out of control to the level that is leaching globe price, so I will see if it improve as I do not want shift fully to Zurich as mongering destination.

So far NRW serve me fine, Hessen you still get it after annoying negotiation often asked for 100 euro per 30 min or 200 per one hour, before was 150 euro per one hour was upsell, now one have to negotiate hard to lower it down to original 150 euro or 100 euro depending on girls, but the trend now in upsell market has gone up to 200 euro, which is possible still to negotiate which destroy the mood of going for session.

Many girls tell me the most important thing in deciding where to work is the amount of rooms they can get. So you cannot possibly say that normal economic theory does not apply. However, what does not apply to this industry is strategic pricing. At least not as of late, and it seems to be less and less of it. I have several times had girls offer me more if a day is quiet. So economic theory lives. But without stringent rules and where the girls are not legally employed by the club, you force through an atmosphere of selective pricing between the girls and the select customers. Anything goes, all chaos. I haven't noticed much difference myself so far, so I don't really care about the whine here on the forum as of yet. But I fear it will hit me too. And if it does, I will scratch girls and eventually clubs of in my blackbook. I have my limits.

[QUOTE=McAdonis;2179061]

Some mongers also believe that as a girl ages and she loses customers to younger WGs, she may feel need to improve her service. As you say "view of her own value" changes. So while she does not lower her rate from 50, she is willing to give more value to her customer.[/QUOTE]I agree.

By the way, the only situation (which almost never happened institutionally) in prostitution industry in which the demand of prostitutes' customers (men) becomes inflationary is that the capacity utilization rate of the prostitutes reaches at least 80%. The capacity utilization rate (CUR) is her occupied time with her clients in the rooms divided by her available time. For example, a prostitute's total available time (excluding taking shower after the sessions, eating and so on with reasonable time) is 8 hours in a day and her time with her clients in the rooms is 3 hours in that day, so her CUR in that day is 37.5% (3/8). If her CUR is more than 80% consistently day after day, her customers do have risk that she could raise her prices because of the demand from her customers. But I don't think that most of FKK girls' CURs reach 80% which starts to have inflationary pressure on her prices.

[QUOTE=MrHo;2179109]Hessen you still get it after annoying negotiation often asked for 100 euro per 30 min or 200 per one hour, before was 150 euro per one hour was upsell, now one have to negotiate hard to lower it down to original 150 euro or 100 euro depending on girls, but the trend now in upsell market has gone up to 200 euro, which is possible still to negotiate which destroy the mood of going for session.[/QUOTE]This statement is hilarious and clearly shows your lack of knowledge of the pricing at the Hessen clubs. How often have you visited Hessen in the last 6 months? At which Hessen clubs did you experience such upselling?

IME the only club (s) in Hessen you can experience such prices as a general rule is at the most ill-reputated club, FKK Palace (and possibly FKK Mainhattan), on busy nights, and only if you act like a sucker. At all other major clubs in Hessen you are doing fine with 100 E /60, and there is very little or close to no negotiation necessary.

The upselling at the Hessen clubs concerns "everything for a fifty", which, while not impossible, can be harder to get. But no need to exaggerate. It's only misleading. Let's try to keep it real, shall we?

[QUOTE=Shark16;2179249]This statement is hilarious and clearly shows your lack of knowledge of the pricing at the Hessen clubs. How often have you visited Hessen in the last 6 months? At which Hessen clubs did you experience such upselling?

IME the only club (s) in Hessen you can experience such prices as a general rule is at the most ill-reputated club, FKK Palace (and possibly FKK Mainhattan), on busy nights, and only if you act like a sucker. At all other major clubs in Hessen you are doing fine with 100 E /60, and there is very little or close to no negotiation necessary.

The upselling at the Hessen clubs concerns "everything for a fifty", which, while not impossible, can be harder to get. But no need to exaggerate. It's only misleading. Let's try to keep it real, shall we?[/QUOTE]Well only club I visit in Hessen is Palace and I was referring to German table right in front of glass smoking room. You can forget your 50 euro on that table for GFE service.

Sharks, I never like it, I know the hype on forum about Sharks, but I never liked line up, Chinese food that is so bad and I like the set up, but I hate that dim light and there is no where you can see girls face beside out side when it is open during summer or arguably in eating area you can see bit better the girls face.

Oase was actually good and bad and I love the down stairs by restaurant where I can see girls coming out from their changing room and see her face and surprisingly I did like the coffee, pizza and pasta there, but for pasta. One cannot go all wrong. Line up was good, but one girl gave me best service including rimming, another one was worst in history.

I only go to palace in Frankfurt, but I am thinking of trying out Oase once again, I have not been there for awhile. Palace, I have been there since 2015 after I stopped going to Artemis which I have been since 2010.

But again, you can forget your 50 euro for palace German table and its related friends for GFE service.

Hi all,

I'm in Stuttgart and have been curious on my last's visits of the Paradise facility.

I have never paid for sex. I did one in Ukraine but there were some excuses when we arrived at my hotel room.

I would like to head to Paradise this weekend. I have read quite a bit but I am a little unclear on some basics so that I can be prepared.

Would anyone be kind enough to assist?

1. I understand there is a flat fee for entry and that I must pay the girls independently. My assumption is that I should be bringing cash but about how much and what do you do for storage / protection of cash if you are in a robe or towel? Cash for entry fee as well?

2. Seems to me anywhere from 50-100 e would be common pricing. I'm not looking for anything crazy for a first time.

3. Condoms. I would like to use them and I understand they are legally compulsory now. Do I buy and bring my own or do the girls have their own supply, sold on site? Trying to prepare.

4. For drinks, food and such should I also prepare to pay cash?

5. I'm planning on coming from Stuttgart main station to the closest S Bahn stop which is about a 15 min walk. Is there anything dangerous about making the walk to Paradise from Echterdingen station.

Thank you in advance!

Rookie1.

[QUOTE=Bfsie;2179044]

Prostitute's price is not driven by market supply and demand as we understand it in economy.



.[/QUOTE]There is nothing super unusual about a prostitute in a club that the laws of supply and demand breakdown. If it seems that way, the issue is with our faulty analysis.

Let me put it this way. The stated price is 50 E for x.

What is x?

Used to be BBBJ + CFS 30 min.

Is that all?

When I first began reading here 5 or 6 years ago, all senior members told me, no. Some amount of couch was included they said. What about DFK, do I need to pay? "No, included, you don't have to pay for it additionally". DATY? "Ditto, included, don't pay". BLS? Rim job? "Hmm, a bit more grey area, but many girls include it, and definitely no need to pay extra for BLS. Rim job, some may want more money".

And is that fully 30 min? "Yes, you are entitled to that full 30 min, you paid for that time".

The question is, if you aggregated and averaged over all the sessions in all the clubs, which would total several millions per year, will we have the same x as it was 6 years ago or 10 years ago?

What do we have today? Some or many or most shortchange on time, and 30 min is really 22 or 25 min if one strictly timed it. Some or many girls flat out refuse 30M50 E sessions. Some or many refuse BBBJ and DFK in 30/50. Same with DATY. BLS? Forget it, not even in 100E60M session. Couch time? Gone the way of dodo. Badgering for tips? Yes, many girls do it. Costco pricing model of "service available only if you buy in bulk amounts" yes, widely prevalent.

You can go down the list and make the comparison yourself.

If x was the service level which included all the above stuff in 2008, was it at that same level in 2011, and where was it in 2013,2015, 2017, and today?

And please, no sub-segments. None of this "a supermonger like HB and other locals like him still get the same x as he / they dd in 2008". We are talking about the actual service achieved and averaged in all the millions of sessions. Of course, we are not in the rooms, we don't know what happens in each session, but we have enough sample points in this forum to make a best guesstimate.

I have no doubt in my mind that the purchasing power of 50E is continuously sliding, has been sliding, for a long time. And it was not just a one time change on 7/1/17 or 1/1/18 or whatever magical date. Those dates might caused a bigger change than normal, but this has been a gradual, one directional loss of purchasing power for a long time, in my view.

And I am not interested in scapegoats either. "Asians caused it, 2017 law chaged it, yadda yadda". It is what it is.

And in all this time, other than clubs now saying "BBBJ is banned by law", they didn't change their list price. All these changes happened strictly as a result of girls and dudes coming together and negotiating.

So, to say supply / demand doesn't work is flat out wrong. It does. It DID.

Supply and demand is a part of the equation but as you can see, since the beginning of the years it has been really slow in most clubs of NRW but I don't think the prices will go down. Maybe all the girls who used to upsell for kissing, DATY, etc will include it the 50 euros price.

[QUOTE=MrHo;2179267]But again, you can forget your 50 euro for palace German table and its related friends for GFE service.[/QUOTE]Actually, there is a nice German girl at Oase that still provides "everything for fifty". Must quickly add that she is not there very often, and she may not be your cup of tea.

Point is, please stop saying you know Hessen if Palace is the only Hessen club you regularly visit. Hessen is so much more.

[QUOTE=Shark16;2179443]Actually, there is a nice German girl at Oase that still provides "everything for fifty". Must quickly add that she is not there very often, and she may not be your cup of tea.

Point is, please stop saying you know Hessen if Palace is the only Hessen club you regularly visit. Hessen is so much more.[/QUOTE]Cleo / Cleopatra with short blonde hair? She looks like she could be in her early 30's?

I also notice that a few of the most regular posters are guys who seem to only clock one trip a year or even less, but yet speak with so much confidence over guys who have up to date intel.

[QUOTE=Shark16;2179443]Actually, there is a nice German girl at Oase that still provides "everything for fifty". Must quickly add that she is not there very often, and she may not be your cup of tea.

Point is, please stop saying you know Hessen if Palace is the only Hessen club you regularly visit. Hessen is so much more.[/QUOTE]Well I did not say that though. But as far as FKK in Hessen and I am only talking stunner level girls, forget 50 euro for GFE service.

Now Artemis always has been up sell club too, but I used to once in a while get full session for 50 euro from stunner girls, which I later switch to longer session from second or third room with such girl as a gesture of appreciation and also that was partly her game to lead to that anyways. But now you can also forget 50 euro good session with stunner.

I am only reffering to stunner here.

[QUOTE=MrHo;2179033]You got same problem as me, quite many body is near perfect for me, it is face that often is real problem. I used to find beautiful face girls, but recently, it is getting harder and harder.

One thing I did not like is lighting in main bar in Globe. It is bit dim and there is light magic, so watch out LOL. I liked lighting at upstairs eating area because you can see girls face well or also our changing room when they walk out of their changing room, you can see face well, but that is hard place to stay for long time.

I liked Sharks and LR as age of girls and service better, but hmmm faces were not bad, there is few things I do not like that spoil the whole face.

I actually tend to find most beautiful faces in artemis, palace and few times in gt, but mostly in first two clubs where plastic is norm. But do find natural beauty once in awhile, but now harder.[/QUOTE]Magic lighting LOL. Thanks for the tip. Always have to get a close up look in dark places. I plan my trips around Fri-Sun. Thursdays at clubs seems to be okay, but Mondays from my experience are dead. I like lots of choices in my club to up the odds of finding a girl, and don't like it if I'm one of the few guys in the club since I turn down so many girls that they don't like me because of it. It gets hostile from them when I'm walking around and they want a room, and since I'm there all day.

[QUOTE=MrHo;2179109]Yeah agree, but it also depend on platform culture as well as law, meaning more freedom platform such as FKK or any hardware entities and laws give to prostitutes, more they will use to control mongers wallet.

In any establishments of any industries, there should be some rule and especially in brothel before, it was more like wild wild west where mongers ended up with some low quality girls with ripped off price, which is the case still in many countries, but German FKK revolutionized that by giving some set quality standard, which began to destroy since last years stupid laws..[/QUOTE]Other than the "extra" service, GFE is what I think is causing most of the upselling for most members. I'm good with a basic suck and fuck, had no problems getting 50/60 E 30 min rooms in any of the clubs I was at (Sharks, Oase, Artemis, Magnum).

[QUOTE=Shark16;2179249]At which Hessen clubs did you experience such upselling?
IME the only club (s) in Hessen you can experience such prices as a general rule is at the most ill-reputated club, FKK Palace (and possibly FKK Mainhattan), on busy nights, and only if you act like a sucker. [/QUOTE]I very rarely go to Mainhatten, but early this month, having a 4-hour gap in Frankfurt between train journeys, I made a quick dash to Mainhatten. So here are 3 data-points for what they are worth, of the girls I sessioned with (all slim and pretty and willing to kiss):

Natasha, 30 minutes, 50 euros (claimed to be new)
Maria, 30 minutes, 50 euros (not recommended).
Dana, 60 min, 100 euros (claimed to be Italian)

All without negotiation, and without any upselling although I am an unknown to them. (I extended my session with Dana to 60 minutes without her asking.)

But I must concede that BJs were all covered. I did not bother to negotiate on this as I was headed to Bernd's the following evening where I know I will get everything I want.

[QUOTE=AbcInFKK;2179462]Magic lighting LOL. Thanks for the tip. Always have to get a close up look in dark places. I plan my trips around Fri-Sun. Thursdays at clubs seems to be okay, but Mondays from my experience are dead. I like lots of choices in my club to up the odds of finding a girl, and don't like it if I'm one of the few guys in the club since I turn down so many girls that they don't like me because of it. It gets hostile from them when I'm walking around and they want a room, and since I'm there all day.

Other than the "extra" service, GFE is what I think is causing most of the upselling for most members. I'm good with a basic suck and fuck, had no problems getting 50/60 E 30 min rooms in any of the clubs I was at (Sharks, Oase, Artemis, Magnum).[/QUOTE]Yeah, you do not want to get into room and kiss her and few second before the lip and tongue intact you realize, oh my god what have I done to myself after looking at her face close up LOL.

I call this light magic of German FKK main bar LOL. This is why for every club I got my I am not moving from here no matter what seating position, so I can look at girls face without light magic LOL LOL!

[QUOTE=MrHo;2179460]Well I did not say that though. But as far as FKK in Hessen and I am only talking stunner level girls, forget 50 euro for GFE service.

Now Artemis always has been up sell club too, but I used to once in a while get full session for 50 euro from stunner girls, which I later switch to longer session from second or third room with such girl as a gesture of appreciation and also that was partly her game to lead to that anyways. But now you can also forget 50 euro good session with stunner.

I am only reffering to stunner here.[/QUOTE]For 60 euro sorry my bad. But 60 euro 30 min full session, but now you can forget that at artemis, as of 2015 as I left at 2015.

Only place I can think of to get full service for standard price 30 min is NRW FKK, the problem is it is hard to find new young stunner level girls lately anywhere as far as FKK, I don't know studios etc.

However, it is not paying minimum so I don't care as long as I get what I want for max max 150 euro per hour, but stunner girls are going for 200 euro per one hour which I negotiate down to 150 euro per hour. I hate this negotiation which kills the mood a bit.

I do miss however of just going for quick 30 min session BBBJ and fuck with girls between sessions, I still get it here and there, but with negotiation most of time and I hate that, and I miss before July 1st last year is what I mean.

Whole FKK meaning was easy access to sex with stunners, now we have to look for stunner travelling all over the country even go across border to Zürich maybe and often in Germany good session comes with some kind of negotiation, it is only few minutes of discussing price etc, but it really is annoying. I like fixed price fixed service policy and for that globe can suit me in future if German FKK scene get more negotiation with uncertainty.

[QUOTE=TankTank123;2179505]I very rarely go to Mainhatten, but early this month, having a 4-hour gap in Frankfurt between train journeys, I made a quick dash to Mainhatten. So here are 3 data-points for what they are worth, of the girls I sessioned with (all slim and pretty and willing to kiss):

Natasha, 30 minutes, 50 euros (claimed to be new)
Maria, 30 minutes, 50 euros (not recommended).
Dana, 60 min, 100 euros (claimed to be Italian)

All without negotiation, and without any upselling although I am an unknown to them. (I extended my session with Dana to 60 minutes without her asking.)

But I must concede that BJs were all covered. I did not bother to negotiate on this as I was headed to Bernd's the following evening where I know I will get everything I want.[/QUOTE]When you pay for 60 min, does that included multiple finishes? Is this something you need to clarify with the girl, or is it generally assumed (one way or the other). I only ever opt for 20-30 minute sessions in the event that I can only finish 1 x. But I love the idea of going for round 2 with the same girl.

[QUOTE=AbcInFKK;2179462]Other than the "extra" service, GFE is what I think is causing most of the upselling for most members. I'm good with a basic suck and fuck, had no problems getting 50/60 E 30 min rooms in any of the clubs I was at (Sharks, Oase, Artemis, Magnum).[/QUOTE]That normal BBBJ suck made it into option list, that is the biggest problem LOL I was like you before, but when rubber comes in for sucking, well I still get it so far in most clubs, but not for long I think.

[QUOTE=ZfNuka;2179542]When you pay for 60 min, does that included multiple finishes? Is this something you need to clarify with the girl, or is it generally assumed (one way or the other).[/QUOTE]Yes, it is included and there is no need to clarify; although I seldom succeed with a 2nd finish within 60 minutes. I extend to 60 minutes when I like the girl sufficiently in the first 30 minutes to just play around in various positions, and save my load for the last 10 minutes before the hour is up.

Jnpr30,

You are entitled to your opinion and I am entitled to my opinion. Let's let the readers think of what to take from our posts.

If any reader is interested in a pregnant girl and happens to be in the area, check out this girl. I did her about a week ago. She is 6-month pregnant, 18 years old, ethnic german and blond hair which is different hair color on her photo. Her service was OK with DFK and others. For me the repetition factor is 6 out of 10 (10 means definitely repeat and 0 means definitely not repeat).

[URL]https://www.royal-passion.com/cms/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=235[/URL]

I agree with what Jnpr30 says. What he writes makes sense.

Jnpr30 says that the purchasing power of 50 E is continuously sliding, has been sliding, for a long time. I have seen this too. Maybe others have not, but once again, we are talking trends and not isolated cases.

The service and value one receives for a 50 buck note in the FKKs is not what it once was. The service levels are variable but the overall trend is downwards unless one opts for the 100 buck note level more and more. Going for the higher amount per session goes to show that the 50 is not buying what it once was.

50 is suck and fuck. It is becoming that DFK, DATY, 69, BLS, fingering the rosette, and rimjob needs a hundred bucks, if not more, since some enterprising girls are charging each of those as an extra and saying that the Reception condones this, and challenging to go ask since Reception says to all incoming customers that 50 is for suck and fuck and anything else is between you and the girl.

The service is suck and fuck and you are lucky if the time allotment is above 15 let along 20 minutes rather than 30 minutes since the girl will be calling time on your ass in many cases. Once again, it is not helpful, as Jnpr30 says, to say that this does not happen to you, to your FKK friend or to your father who comes to the club with you, since we are talking about trends over thousands of cases and not sub segments of monger.

There are few safe havens, not even Sharks, and those safe havens. The optics are not to my specification in looks I am afraid as much as I would like to lower my standards I know deep down I cannot and will not.

The value of fifty note in 2002 is not the same as the value of a fifty in 2018. The girls feel it and it does not matter what the cost of living is like in Romania as it is all relative. A fair amount of what is earned is still spent in Germany so that is German prices that need to be kept up. This is inflation.

As for the supply and demand matrix that Jnpr30 proposes, take the example of the codgers, young and old, that have the opportunity to attend the clubs on the quiet days and take advantage of the desperate girls wanting to make a euro note and accepting the fiddy note as to not accept the service request for that fiddy would mean not making entrance or coming away net positive as opposed to net negative. I wish I could do that but there are other obligations other than FKK in play here. I am doing my best, trying to make things right.

Not all mongers have the opportunity to go at these quiet times to take advantage of the supply / demand dynamics involved here, but some codgers do. These codgers reap the rewards of the over supply exceeding demand at these times.

There are guys I know who are coming less and less as the excitement is not there or the wow factor is gone.

I know I have become more selective now and less willing to risk a 50 due to the bad experiences that a 50 will provide.

[QUOTE=Jnpr30;2179311]There is nothing super unusual about a prostitute in a club that the laws of supply and demand breakdown. If it seems that way, the issue is with our faulty analysis.

Let me put it this way. The stated price is 50 E for x.

What is x?

Used to be BBBJ + CFS 30 min.

Is that all?

When I first began reading here 5 or 6 years ago, all senior members told me, no. Some amount of couch was included they said. What about DFK, do I need to pay? "No, included, you don't have to pay for it additionally". DATY? "Ditto, included, don't pay". BLS? Rim job? "Hmm, a bit more grey area, but many girls include it, and definitely no need to pay extra for BLS. Rim job, some may want more money".

And is that fully 30 min? "Yes, you are entitled to that full 30 min, you paid for that time".

The question is, if you aggregated and averaged over all the sessions in all the clubs, which would total several millions per year, will we have the same x as it was 6 years ago or 10 years ago?

What do we have today? Some or many or most shortchange on time, and 30 min is really 22 or 25 min if one strictly timed it. Some or many girls flat out refuse 30M50 E sessions. Some or many refuse BBBJ and DFK in 30/50. Same with DATY. BLS? Forget it, not even in 100E60M session. Couch time? Gone the way of dodo. Badgering for tips? Yes, many girls do it. Costco pricing model of "service available only if you buy in bulk amounts" yes, widely prevalent.

You can go down the list and make the comparison yourself.

If x was the service level which included all the above stuff in 2008, was it at that same level in 2011, and where was it in 2013,2015, 2017, and today?

And please, no sub-segments. None of this "a supermonger like HB and other locals like him still get the same x as he / they dd in 2008". We are talking about the actual service achieved and averaged in all the millions of sessions. Of course, we are not in the rooms, we don't know what happens in each session, but we have enough sample points in this forum to make a best guesstimate.

I have no doubt in my mind that the purchasing power of 50E is continuously sliding, has been sliding, for a long time. And it was not just a one time change on 7/1/17 or 1/1/18 or whatever magical date. Those dates might caused a bigger change than normal, but this has been a gradual, one directional loss of purchasing power for a long time, in my view.

And I am not interested in scapegoats either. "Asians caused it, 2017 law chaged it, yadda yadda". It is what it is.

And in all this time, other than clubs now saying "BBBJ is banned by law", they didn't change their list price. All these changes happened strictly as a result of girls and dudes coming together and negotiating.

So, to say supply / demand doesn't work is flat out wrong. It does. It DID.[/QUOTE]

How can we say it is MARKET supply and demand while the WGs only go down their prices to certain amounts (for example to 50 euro in normal FKK clubs) and no more no matter how bad demand (monger's demand) is. How can we say it is MARKET supply and demand while the FKK WGs on average are not busy more than half of their working time which means oversupply (excess supply) of the WGs and their prices don't fall further down because of that. Is this MARKET supply and demand?

[QUOTE=Bfsie;2179627]If any reader is interested in a pregnant girl and happens to be in the area, check out this girl. I did her about a week ago. She is 6-month pregnant, 18 years old, ethnic german and blond hair which is different hair color on her photo. Her service was OK with DFK and others. For me the repetition factor is 6 out of 10 (10 means definitely repeat and 0 means definitely not repeat).

[URL]https://www.royal-passion.com/cms/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=235[/URL][/QUOTE]Thanks for the info, but I thought it was now strictly forbidden. Unfortunately I come back only in July.

[QUOTE=Bfsie;2179671]How can we say it is MARKET supply and demand while the WGs only go down their prices to certain amounts (for example to 50 euro in normal FKK clubs) and no more no matter how bad demand (monger's demand) is. How can we say it is MARKET supply and demand while the FKK WGs on average are not busy more than half of their working time which means oversupply (excess supply) of the WGs and their prices don't fall further down because of that. Is this MARKET supply and demand?[/QUOTE]Even workers in normal jobs do not have 100% utilization. Are you saying that there is no chit chat, blah, blah, blah, no breaks, no lunch breaks, no meetings that do not end up concluding anything? That is, in your work, can you honestly say that you are working for every minute of the day performing value add?

What you are talking about now is productivity. If your workers provide low productivity then their wage growth is low meaning you can always get more workers instead of investing in infrastructure. When worker productivity improves or workers become less in number then wage growth accelerates. Supply and demand.

[QUOTE=Bfsie;2179671]How can we say it is MARKET supply and demand while the WGs only go down their prices to certain amounts (for example to 50 euro in normal FKK clubs) and no more no matter how bad demand (monger's demand) is. How can we say it is MARKET supply and demand while the FKK WGs on average are not busy more than half of their working time which means oversupply (excess supply) of the WGs and their prices don't fall further down because of that. Is this MARKET supply and demand?[/QUOTE]WGs would be disciplined by management if they charged under the base 50 EUR rate (or the other WGs may intimidate her).

Many WGs in fact lower their rates. You have WGs working at 40 E /30 min clubs that formerly worked at 50 E /30 min clubs, service more or less stays the same. You have WGs that escorted for 250 E /60 min in the UK, now working at 50 E /30 min clubs in Germany. They could have went to Austria or Switzerland, but chose Germany.

[QUOTE=Bitumen;2179656]
The value of fifty note in 2002 is not the same as the value of a fifty in 2018. The girls feel it and it does not matter what the cost of living is like in Romania as it is all relative. A fair amount of what is earned is still spent in Germany so that is German prices that need to be kept up. This is inflation.[/QUOTE]But Euro inflation between 2002 and today is only about 30%. 50E in 2002 is worth about 65E today. Seems like quite a few girls are operating in 100% inflation mode though.

Let me tell you maybe you don't know sex places like brothels outside of FKK clubs. Some of brothels have minimum 120 euro per session (see the following link as an example) and I know some of them are out of business because of this kind of minimum 120 euro rule.

[URL]http://www.6relax.de/club/name/oriental_nights/from_a/club_14697[/URL]

Actually I know that the prices in most of the brothels in NRW are not based on "market" supply and demand because if they follow the market supply and demand, there would be no girls willing to work there.

[QUOTE=CitizenKane;2179686]But Euro inflation between 2002 and today is only about 30%. 50E in 2002 is worth about 65E today. Seems like quite a few girls are operating in 100% inflation mode though.[/QUOTE]Like the stock market its about sentiment sometimes and not logic citizen.

I would like to feel the value of my unit has only gone down 30% since 2002 but when I am at the check out till to pay for goods or services it feels like a lot more value has been lost in that time. Maybe the girls have that same feeling like I do and do not get their abacus out to do the maths.

In principle, we can't simply say it is market supply and demand if they have minimum prices, which can be lower, no matter how bad the demand is. It is just not market supply and demand as we understand it in economy.

[QUOTE=Bitumen;2179643]I agree, I feel more and more, the services are no longer there for 50 bucks, let alone 100 bucks when opting for the one hour. I am finding more and more girls are insisting on 150 bucks for one hour. For certain nationalities it is 200 for the one hour even. Catastrophe.
[/QUOTE]From what I hear, 100 does not buy you what it used to, especially on busy nights. All I am really talking about is whether there is a tipping point, where mongers start exploring alternatives. The rates you mention can be juxtaposed with Bfsie's report farther down on this page about a pregnant German 18 year old working at an apartment for 120 E /60 min with DFK included. Presumably, he didn't have to pay an entry fee to see this German WG. And the receptionist probably also took a more active interest in ensuring that he left happy.

[QUOTE=Bitumen;2179688]Like the stock market its about sentiment sometimes and not logic citizen.

I would like to feel the value of my unit has only gone down 30% since 2002 but when I am at the check out till to pay for goods or services it feels like a lot more value has been lost in that time. Maybe the girls have that same feeling like I do and do not get their abacus out to do the maths.[/QUOTE]They only ask for what they think they can get. I don't believe any girl is going to completely price herself out of the market on principle. The reason for this '100%' inflation is the fact that some mugs are actually paying it.

[QUOTE=McAdonis;2179691] Presumably, he didn't have to pay an entry fee to see this German WG. And the receptionist probably also took a more active interest in ensuring that he left happy.[/QUOTE]You are correct.

[QUOTE=McAdonis;2179681]WGs would be disciplined by management if they charged under the base 50 EUR rate (or the other WGs may intimidate her).

Many WGs in fact lower their rates. You have WGs working at 40 E /30 min clubs that formerly worked at 50 E /30 min clubs, service more or less stays the same. You have WGs that escorted for 250 E /60 min in the UK, now working at 50 E /30 min clubs in Germany. They could have went to Austria or Switzerland, but chose Germany.[/QUOTE]Romanians are not for 300 pounds in UK, they usually work in privates like in Manchester for about 150 pounds per hour.

Why do you want girls who claim to get business in Dubai, UK or Switzerland, come to work for everything asked for only 50? Girls I know who moved to Switzerland don't plan to return to Germany for less than half rate. Girls want money.

I am willing to pay up to 150 euro per hour if DFK, BBBJ, DATY, rimming, condom sex and nice GFE style or dirty style is provided and one is 60 min and if I can cum two times if I can in this session.

But in German FKK, it is not sure thing which made me want to minimize risk sometimes and just go for 30 min.

All in all, it is hit and miss thing, I met girl who provided me all for standard 50 euro or 60 euro, some for 100, some for 120,150 or 200 euro, it is depend.

I do however, love Globe style management where 30 min is 30 min, good session is secured kinda set up.

Summer is coming around corner, I love fucking out side, but with bit of privacy though LOL.

[QUOTE=Bfsie;2179690]In principle, we can't simply say it is market supply and demand if they have minimum prices, which can be lower, no matter how bad the demand is. It is just not market supply and demand as we understand it in economy.[/QUOTE]If all looks and service was equal, but obviously they're not. There's the 'looks to service' ratio to factor in. Phrasing this carefully; some girls attractiveness would not warrant the 50 E minimum of 'standard' service hence they have to provide a higher standard of service to compete with the more attractive girls.

[QUOTE=CitizenKane;2179693]They only ask for what they think they can get. I don't believe any girl is going to completely price herself out of the market on principle. The reason for this '100%' inflation is the fact that some mugs are actually paying it.[/QUOTE]
Citizen,

I agree. Girls will ask for what they can get and see what happens. Girls can ask for it and will try it since the name of the game is to get what you can from a guy since there is no come back later.

Some girls are left on the sidelines unemployed since they have priced themselves out as they say they will not do this or that for a 50 note. There are many that fall into this category. No DFK, no ball licking, no rimjob, no DATY for a 50 note session. That is pricing themselves out of that price bracket.

As for the mugs that pay the increase to 100 for a 30 minute basic session that ends up being 15 minutes. Here are some anecdotes:

A few years ago I knew Dutch in Golden Time who would pay the girls 60 bucks for half a hour as they believed that via sentiment that 50 bucks was too low. That sentiment and pricing may have gone up for this group in that time.

Just like there are guys in the Hessen clubs known for paying 70 bucks for half hour since once again they feel that the value of a 50 note was not what it was before. 20 euro extra men.

Then there are Americans that tip anyway since it is part of their understanding of service culture. It becomes the new price unofficially.

That sentiment does not justify the inflation if the inflation over the last 16 years is only 30% averaging around 2% a year but really I do not feel like it is 30% when I look at the price I pay for things and we are not talking about sex services but normal groceries and household products.

[QUOTE=McAdonis;2179691]From what I hear, 100 does not buy you what it used to, especially on busy nights. All I am really talking about is whether there is a tipping point, where mongers start exploring alternatives. The rates you mention can be juxtaposed with Bfsie's report farther down on this page about a pregnant German 18 year old working at an apartment for 120 E /60 min with DFK included. Presumably, he didn't have to pay an entry fee to see this German WG. And the receptionist probably also took a more active interest in ensuring that he left happy.[/QUOTE]McAdonis,

There is a tipping point. My colleagues and I do talk about this each visit when we meet as we ponder the meaning life, the answers to the world and how to get a decent blowjob without a condom.

I did not have these feelings or sentiments before but more and more I get the feeling there are alternatives. Add me to the statistics that you are compiling as in that camp.

I know there are codgers talking of the Americas or the Spains and for all I know even Greece was mentioned.

[QUOTE=Bitumen;2179706]McAdonis,

There is a tipping point. My colleagues and I do talk about this each visit when we meet as we ponder the meaning life, the answers to the world and how to get a decent blowjob without a condom. [/QUOTE]Getting a decent blowjob without a condom from beautiful stunner is the meaning of life, preferably in open air like the GT summer garden LOL!

Good food, good sex with best girls, good house, good car, good traveling, good bank account balance and good health, good pet, good freedom, I cannot ask for more in life.

Getting BBBJ from stunner is one of central core of meaning of life.

[QUOTE=Bfsie;2179690]In principle, we can't simply say it is market supply and demand if they have minimum prices, which can be lower, no matter how bad the demand is. It is just not market supply and demand as we understand it in economy.[/QUOTE]Wages are often determined by surpluses or shortages of skilled workers. People who work in professions where there is a shortage: healthcare, technology, engineering, have probably been seeing steady pay increases. People in professions where their is a skill surplus probably haven't seen much in terms of wage increase.

Just because some of us are lucky to be in white-collar in demand professions, the reality is wage stagnation has been a problem in many developed countries:

"In America, median wages have been stagnant for more than 40 years. In Japan and Germany, it's been 20 years without a pay rise. And it's a global problem. Wage growth has been weak around the world for nearly a decade In Britain in particular, wages fell very dramatically. There was a more than 10% fall of real wages in the six years after 2008. " [URL]http://www.bbc.com/news/business-35709058[/URL].

WGs easily were making 10 x what they make back home. Now it is maybe 8 x. They are still better off than most workers.

[QUOTE=Bitumen;2179703]Citizen,

I agree. Girls will ask for what they can get and see what happens. Girls can ask for it and will try it since the name of the game is to get what you can from a guy since there is no come back later.

Some girls are left on the sidelines unemployed since they have priced themselves out as they say they will not do this or that for a 50 note. There are many that fall into this category. No DFK, no ball licking, no rimjob, no DATY for a 50 note session. That is pricing themselves out of that price bracket.[/QUOTE]I think some of it comes down to bragging rights with the other girls too. They'd all love to rush back into that changing room and tell everyone they just got 300 euros for a 5 minute handjob.

It comes back to the 'looks:service' ratio thing. A girl gets overpaid for a low level of service therefore (in her mind at least) she must be very attractive.

[QUOTE=McAdonis;2179711]WGs easily were making 10 x what they make back home. Now it is maybe 8 x. They are still better off than most workers.[/QUOTE]Yes but, just like us, the rose-tinted glasses go on and it's "not like the good old days of FKK"!

Plus, nobody likes to go backwards financially.

[QUOTE=McAdonis;2179711]Wages are often determined by surpluses or shortages of skilled workers. People who work in professions where there is a shortage: healthcare, technology, engineering, have probably been seeing steady pay increases. People in professions where their is a skill surplus probably haven't seen much in terms of wage increase.

Just because some of us are lucky to be in white-collar in demand professions, the reality is wage stagnation has been a problem in many developed countries:

"In America, median wages have been stagnant for more than 40 years. In Japan and Germany, it's been 20 years without a pay rise. And it's a global problem. Wage growth has been weak around the world for nearly a decade In Britain in particular, wages fell very dramatically. There was a more than 10% fall of real wages in the six years after 2008. " [URL]http://www.bbc.com/news/business-35709058[/URL].

WGs easily were making 10 x what they make back home. Now it is maybe 8 x. They are still better off than most workers.[/QUOTE]No matter what people say, the principle is the principle. When you have minimum prices, which can be lower, no matter how bad the demand is, it is not market supple and demand as we understand (or people define) it in economy. It is easy and simple, period.

I will be spending a full night / day at FKK Colloseum at the end of this month. Not a log of info on this venue here.

Can someone recommend a German board where they review the girls?

Thanks!

Uncle-V.

[QUOTE=UncleVolodya;2179747]I will be spending a full night / day at FKK Colloseum at the end of this month. Not a log of info on this venue here.

Can someone recommend a German board where they review the girls?

Thanks!

Uncle-V.[/QUOTE][URL]http://huren-test-forum.lusthaus.cc/forumdisplay.php?f=312[/URL]

[QUOTE=MrHo;2178690]Only competitive advantage German FKK now has is amount of FKK and girls, but now quality and services decreased and price increased LOL. Oh also annoying negotiation increased also without secure delivery of service sometimes.

Solution is Zurich or mildly keep on talking to German FKK management which I do between session as I do have chit chat with desk about random things in life and FKK. They sound like they do actually care in some clubs, but caring never reflect on services etc. LOL.

Nrw is still safe, Hessen is out, Artemis Berlin is out.

Why nrw is exception remained in mystery, but I clearly see differences in service level in NRW and it is not just competition as Hessen got competition too.[/QUOTE]You can find super sexy girls at Globe with behavior in bed or even in club to make you feel they are in love for you, but girls are at Globe to make big money, some clients are big money, and public sex killed my GFE illusion for Katalina, even she returned to me when she saw me after 1 year. She never forgot how I treated her at Sharks, she was my GFE illusion at Globe, but when I saw her in public sex, not anymore illusion for me, so I didn't follow her when she went for diner, I let her go diner alone. She made me dream with her elegance and charm, until I saw her like this. That's Globe, beauties even too many silicon now, excellence for girls behavior, but vulgarity for public sex, and Tuesday is for voyeurs about public sex in the afternoon, then rooms are closed in the afternoon, only public sex, so for sure no GFE illusion possible. Globe worth for me when I m in my mountains, or when castings in Germany are down, but Germany is a better playfield for GFE illusion, just have to find a elegant beauty with charm and good manners, difficult to find a new one on 2018, I knew I lost my best FKK girl when I stopped with her on October, because no more GFE illusion due to her public behavior. I search in deep Germany to find my new Eve. I found a real Romanian beauty on this Saturday, of course I would have to explain her how to take care to shave, for her feet and nails, but she didn't worth in bed, but as said Jasmin, 35 yo Moldavian, a real woman with charm, even not anymore so firm body, I give so much love for my way for sex, then I m dangerous because I know how to get what I want from girls, this is interesting game fo GFE illusion. Best is to find a arrogant beauty look, not busy, and to treat her like a woman princess, then usually it works.

[QUOTE=TankTank123;2179505]
But I must concede that BJs were all covered. I did not bother to negotiate on this as I was headed to Bernd's the following evening where I know I will get everything I want.[/QUOTE]Thanks for the update. Good way to look at it from another angle like ' averaging out. ' I like Mainhatten still, although I tend to get lucky there I will take on the risk of a CBJ as my cock is usually already hard anyway by time they touch it and just as you know the next day you will be satisfied with what you desire at Bernd's it is the same with me. I know the next day (if end of trip all the preceding days) I will be with Gypsies who will provide me too with everything I want (and hopefully nothing I do not want).

So looking at it from your angle is a good way. I can survive for a night or two there, I get BBBJ 4 X-5 X a week at home and 100 percent of the time at DayCare and despite what is posted at times I find both Sharks / Oase are fully loaded up with girls giving 50 e rooms with BBBJ, have to hunt but it is all over. So a night off at 'FKK CBJ' is ok with me.

Hope you enjoyed Bernd's :D

[QUOTE=Bitumen;2179677]Even workers in normal jobs do not have 100% utilization. Are you saying that there is no chit chat, blah, blah, blah, no breaks, no lunch breaks, no meetings that do not end up concluding anything? That is, in your work, can you honestly say that you are working for every minute of the day performing value add?

What you are talking about now is productivity. If your workers provide low productivity then their wage growth is low meaning you can always get more workers instead of investing in infrastructure. When worker productivity improves or workers become less in number then wage growth accelerates. Supply and demand.[/QUOTE]Quite right Bitumen. Well put.

As you astutely observed, even in white collar non hourly jobs, there can be lots of downtime. Our wages are determined taking all these productivity issues into consideration.

And there are several dozens of professions where a worker who hung out own shingle can have downtime -- a lawyer, a private practitioner physician, an electrician, a plumber, any free lance entertainer, yadda yadda. If you work for yourself in any service sector, you run the risk of having downtime. A high priced lawyer may charge $500 an hour, and if he has a couple of dry days won't necessarily cut his fee to $300 *immediately*. He would, if the dry spell continued for a long time. And that's the key -- the response to the reduced or increased demand is not adjusted on a microsecond basis, but over time it will. So, if a girl is consistently getting no business in the club and can't even cover the entry fee with her earnings she will, over time, adjust and offer BBBJ and DFK or whatever else to gain some additional customers if she is smart; and if she is too dumb she will not adjust, see her wallet get totally emptied and can't even pay the entry fee, desperately hit a few of her ex-customers on Social media for help, and when that too fails, will be forced out of profession (she will call it "retired".

In all this, supply / demand is working just fine. Not on a microsecond to microsecond, but in the intermediate to longer term, very surely it does.

[QUOTE=Bfsie;2179723] When you have minimum prices, which can be lower, no matter how bad the demand is, it is not market supple and demand ....[/QUOTE]


If we simply fixate on the 50E number and don't consider what you get in return, we are not even talking the same language. Price calculation has a numerator and denominator -- what you gave out and what you received in return. To simply focus on the numerator, i.e 50E and ignore what you receive in return --- well, this does not imply price is stable over time.

Think of airlines.

Say, an airline kept the fare unchanged to $500. But where they used to serve a full meal and drink, they gave peanuts and water. And then that too went out. Leg room shrunk from 24 inches to 18 inches to 12 inches. Seat width shrunk horribly, and if you are unlucky to be obese and in the middle seat you will feel like that al Qaeda guy tortured in Guantanamo. Used to have 2 bags check in, then one then none, and now pay $50 for a cabin bag. In flight entertainment. Gone. You can think of a dozen other things which were included and for which you have to pay.

Do we think effective price has not changed even if the headline number stayed relatively constant?

Hi,

I will be travelling for 2 nights (landing in FRA) and I would like to visit 2 or 3 clubs in the area surrounding the 3 cities. I haven't booked accommodation yet so I don't mind sleeping in one of the above 3 cities, my flight back is from FRA however. Also I will use public transportation only and ICE of course if necessary.

Could someone recommend me the 3-4 best clubs in the 3 cities area except for Sharks and Palace in Darmstadt and Frankfurt?

Thanks!

[QUOTE=Jnpr30;2179776]A high priced lawyer may charge $500 an hour, and if he has a couple of dry days won't necessarily cut his fee to $300 *immediately*. He would, if the dry spell continued for a long time. And that's the key -- the response to the reduced or increased demand is not adjusted on a microsecond basis, but over time it will. So, if a girl is consistently getting no business in the club and can't even cover the entry fee with her earnings she will, over time, adjust and offer BBBJ and DFK or whatever else to gain some additional customers if she is smart; and if she is too dumb she will not adjust, see her wallet get totally emptied and can't even pay the entry fee, desperately hit a few of her ex-customers on Social media for help, and when that too fails, will be forced out of profession (she will call it "retired".

In all this, supply / demand is working just fine. Not on a microsecond to microsecond, but in the intermediate to longer term, very surely it does.
[/QUOTE]Makes perfect sense to me. A WG will not immediately change her ways in response to temporary market signals, but over the time they will if they are smart (change venues, get cosmetic surgery, diet, improve service offering, and lower her rate as a probably the last resort). Just like a monger won't abandon FKK as a mongering option if he gets ripped off a few times. But over time, if things don't improve, behaviors change.

Bfsie seems to be fixated on the technical definition for the supply and demand principle. If I am understanding correctly, he means to imply that the concept of a "minimum price" is incompatible with the textbook definition of the supply and demand principle. That's like saying that America is not truly a capitalistic, free-market society. Because if such things as social security exist, the market is not allowed to be truly free. Don't know if that's a proper analogy actually.

[QUOTE=Jnpr30;2179776]
If we simply fixate on the 50E number and don't consider what you get in return, we are not even talking the same language. Price calculation has a numerator and denominator -- what you gave out and what you received in return. To simply focus on the numerator, i.e 50E and ignore what you receive in return --- well, this does not imply price is stable over time.[/QUOTE]We are all entitled to our opinions. I already wrote enough and my point is clear. I trust the readers with common sense and let the readers decide what to take from all the posts on this topic. This is my last post on this topic because I don't want admin to put me on the list of the argumentative member and to delay my posts in the future.

[QUOTE=CitizenKane;2179713]I think some of it comes down to bragging rights with the other girls too. They'd all love to rush back into that changing room and tell everyone they just got 300 euros for a 5 minute handjob.

It comes back to the 'looks:service' ratio thing. A girl gets overpaid for a low level of service therefore (in her mind at least) she must be very attractive.[/QUOTE]I suspect it is exactly the opposite. Girls will not share information about their best clients. There is fierce competition for the better clients among the girls. New pretty girls will tell you the veterans give them a hard time. Better to reduce the competition. The girls also watch what other girls do. In GT I know I get looks from the other girls when I return from a long session.

[QUOTE=Jnpr30;2179787]Think of airlines.

Say, an airline kept the fare unchanged to $500. But where they used to serve a full meal and drink, they gave peanuts and water. And then that too went out. Leg room shrunk from 24 inches to 18 inches to 12 inches. Seat width shrunk horribly, and if you are unlucky to be obese and in the middle seat you will feel like that al Qaeda guy tortured in Guantanamo. Used to have 2 bags check in, then one then none, and now pay $50 for a cabin bag. In flight entertainment. Gone. You can think of a dozen other things which were included and for which you have to pay.

Do we think effective price has not changed even if the headline number stayed relatively constant?[/QUOTE]Very good points. The pricing has never been totally fixed. There are many stories in the past of superstar girls with a long line of waiting customers. These are much less frequent these days. Punters would load these girls up with valuable gifts (I. E. A top of the line iPhone and jewelry) so that they would not have to fight to get a session. People are just unaware of girls that would be in a club but would not be available simply because they were already booked up and leave early because they have made their quotas. These girls would also show up infrequently because the punters would book them as escorts and pay a higher rate for multiple hours. Money, looks, and attitudes have always counted in this profession. People have been spoiled by the FKK concept that gives most guys a pretty good value without haggling. What happened in the past is you pay your money and you take your chances. If a girl decides to give you the minimum, there is no recourse since you have to pay in advance or face the muscle man.

[QUOTE=Bfsie;2179818]We are all entitled to our opinions. I already wrote enough and my point is clear. I trust the readers with common sense and let the readers decide what to take from all the posts on this topic. This is my last post on this topic because I don't want admin to put me on the list of the argumentative member and to delay my posts in the future.[/QUOTE]I think it is all good discussion and I find it a good back and forth not an argument. The fundamentalists and technical guys often differ yet share the same goal to ride the trend and do well, just like at the NYSE. So carry on! All of you have made good points. My take on all this:

I have come to learn there is no right or wrong in how we want to predict the economics or how the best way to react to the market is, just have fun. The only right or wrong is determined from within. At the end of the day (or night) ' Did you have a good time and enjoy yourself and pay what you are comfortable with?

If the answer is ' yes' than you are right.

If the answer is ' no' than reevaluate and make it right in you mind.

The real ROI in all of this is what you personally make of the market you are playing in. I personally stopped predicting the market and judging it as I have found no matter what regardless of location for all my years in this the market has treated me like an ocean, always changing and moving in waves with drifting currents and all I can do is captain my own ship and navigate the best I can. And I have happily been lost at sea since I was 20; forking over currencies of all kinds to women who will service me. Actually I am not lost at sea. I found the inland port of Dietzenbach and the Gypsies and the best feeling pussies in the world at the right price. :D

In my book I win. In others' books maybe I am a lost. So what, I am happy, all entitled to their opinion but the only one that matters is our own. I am sure you are having fun as are the guys you are discussing (not arguing) with.

Have fun and good discussion points by all.

[QUOTE=MrHo;2179710]Getting BBBJ from stunner is one of central core of meaning of life.[/QUOTE]Yes, Mr Ho, your post are so amuse I loving read them so much! Enjoying your view of life, on this planet we have such short time.

[QUOTE=Jnpr30;2179787]Think of airlines.

Say, an airline kept the fare unchanged to $500. But where they used to serve a full meal and drink, they gave peanuts and water. And then that too went out. Leg room shrunk from 24 inches to 18 inches to 12 inches. Seat width shrunk horribly, and if you are unlucky to be obese and in the middle seat you will feel like that al Qaeda guy tortured in Guantanamo. Used to have 2 bags check in, then one then none, and now pay $50 for a cabin bag. In flight entertainment. Gone. You can think of a dozen other things which were included and for which you have to pay.

Do we think effective price has not changed even if the headline number stayed relatively constant?[/QUOTE]I am not sure wht you are trying to say with this analogy.

20 years ago if you wanted to fly within Europe it would cost you perhaps 120 euro for a cheap flight. Today you can fly the same distance for 12 euro. I don't see the girls in FKKs lower their price from 50 to 5 euro for the basics only to add extras for additional 10's. But in order for your analogy to survive, they should be.

[QUOTE=Pistons;2179872]I am not sure wht you are trying to say with this analogy.

20 years ago if you wanted to fly within Europe it would cost you perhaps 120 euro for a cheap flight. Today you can fly the same distance for 12 euro. I don't see the girls in FKKs lower their price from 50 to 5 euro for the basics only to add extras for additional 10's. But in order for your analogy to survive, they should be.[/QUOTE]To me, both of you make perfect examples that lead me to one conclusion. The airline and prostitution industries both are better in Europe than in the USA.

[QUOTE=Jolokia;2179867]Yes, Mr Ho, your post are so amuse I loving read them so much! Enjoying your view of life, on this planet we have such short time.[/QUOTE]Such a short time, so many beautiful stunners to fuck.

We are all here for awhile and gone sooner than we expect, so we might as well as fuck many beautiful girls from all over the world as we can while we are here.

Summer is around the corner, another summer of fucking in Germany LOL! Glad to report that it is secure thing for us mongers!

[QUOTE=Pistons;2179872]I am not sure wht you are trying to say with this analogy.

20 years ago if you wanted to fly within Europe it would cost you perhaps 120 euro for a cheap flight. Today you can fly the same distance for 12 euro. I don't see the girls in FKKs lower their price from 50 to 5 euro for the basics only to add extras for additional 10's. But in order for your analogy to survive, they should be.[/QUOTE]You have to read some of the previous exchanges to understand the context. The discussion was what is price? I was making the point that airlines kept the headline prices somewhat stable but so many things were made "extras", and the true price is higher.

To the point you make I don't know much about European airfares. In general, there is a huge impact on airfares from deregulation, airline consolidation or conversely new low cost airlines getting launched and so on. I can tell you that airfares in US have definitely gone up in the last decade, after a spate of consolidations. Especially when you look at not just base fare but on a all-in basis.


https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2013/02/how-airline-ticket-prices-fell-50-in-30-years-and-why-nobody-noticed/273506/


And for that matter, even global airfares have gone up, and probably more than indicated in the following graph if extras are included

https://www.statista.com/statistics/324783/annual-change-in-average-global-airfares/

Girls decide, there is no comparison to other industries price structure.

Girls decides on her principle, experience, her mood and how much they like you.

More power club and industry and law gives to girls, worst it get for mongers.

However, in some club, girls decide among themselves some rules, sometimes it is good for mongers, most of time it is bad rule for mongers LOL.

I could make good use of FKK in Germany where price per 30 min is bit higher than 50 euro, but service, time and good line up is secured.

[QUOTE=AbcInFKK;2178522]That's disappointing to hear. Globe is my next target destination. Personal tastes aside, do you find the pictures on the site accurate?

If pictures are accurate I would rate a good amount as 8+ for body, but seeing them in person and face is very important (which many are blocking face for privacy reasons).[/QUOTE]Holy crap, the pictures on the website make them look sexy as fuck!! I guess its the lighting or something. Yeah all of the girls I seen there have nice fit bodies but their faces are ok. Not hot hot.

[QUOTE=Jnpr30;2180001]You have to read some of the previous exchanges to understand the context. The discussion was what is price? I was making the point that airlines kept the headline prices somewhat stable but so many things were made "extras", and the true price is higher.

To the point you make I don't know much about European airfares. In general, there is a huge impact on airfares from deregulation, airline consolidation or conversely new low cost airlines getting launched and so on. I can tell you that airfares in US have definitely gone up in the last decade, after a spate of consolidations. Especially when you look at not just base fare but on a all-in basis.[/QUOTE]I understood everything perfectly fine.

But:

- North America is the odd one out here. Asia and Europe has had pretty much unchanged or falling airline fares for the past 10 years.

- Your averages takes too many business paid bonus program membership flights into account. These flight are not viable to use in your first example with all the extras you mention. Such membership flights have had an increase in cost, but businesses doesn't care because it is a way of tax evasion when you spend your points outside of work and pay no taxes for them. And these bonus programs have grown substantially worldwide. It is just corrupt behavior, and illegal in most countries the way they avoid paying tax by the way. So take that away also, and prices haven't gone up at all even in your chart.

- All the pay for extra madness companies in europe and south east asia are dirt cheap. Ryanair and Wizzair being ultra low cost carriers in europe has just what I mentionned cut base prices compared the old dinosaurs by 90% compared to 15 years ago.

- Only low cost airlines are viable for such a comparison as this as they are the only ones living in the world of market economy. Bonus programs are abusing tax authorities laziness and cannot be used as a measurement.

- American airlines industry is thoroughly corrupt with their 'lobbying' (caught!) and absolutely no market economy exist there. This should be well known to everyone. So I feel for you Americans. There are also indications of illegal cartel structures in north american airline industry.

[QUOTE=Sho423;2180359]Holy crap, the pictures on the website make them look sexy as fuck!! I guess its the lighting or something. Yeah all of the girls I seen there have nice fit bodies but their faces are ok. Not hot hot.[/QUOTE]While the pictures seem correct, and is definitely if the right girls, it is easily seen with the naked eye how much photoshop has been involved. So much that it turns me off in fact. I get a bit of uncanny valley feel looking at the globe lineup pictures. Especially on some of the photos. The photoshoping is not equally heavy on all the girls.

[QUOTE=Pistons;2180387]

- American airlines industry is thoroughly corrupt with their 'lobbying' (caught!) and absolutely no market economy exist there. This should be well known to everyone. So I feel for you Americans. There are also indications of illegal cartel structures in north american airline industry.[/QUOTE]Ramadan Kareem, Pistons. It seems like every day we read about some new crazy incident in US planes or airports. (Like the woman who was given an apple snack, brought it off the plane, and got fined $500.) Any kind of corruption can be justified under the rubric of "security". Just one of the reasons I'm glad I don't live there any more.

In Europe I stand by my proposal that the airline industry and sex industry should consolidate into FKK Mile High.

After perestroika, Russian flooded the mongering scene, Russia developed and we do not see Russian girls as much anymore.

Now, for past decade or so, Romanian flooded the mongering scene, thanks to organized movement system service and visa granted to work in Europe.

Which nation is next in line for next supply to us mongers.

I see Romania on TV or magazine and I get automatic boner LOL!

How many times you cum by stunner in life echoes in eternity.

This is the meaning of life.

Which city has better clubs Dusseldorf or Cologne? I'm about to come vacation next month with small budget and try out 2 clubs. I've tried Oase and Sharks before and I'm looking for something similar.

[QUOTE=MrHo;2180601]After perestroika, Russian flooded the mongering scene, Russia developed and we do not see Russian girls as much anymore.

Now, for past decade or so, Romanian flooded the mongering scene, thanks to organized movement system service and visa granted to work in Europe.

Which nation is next in line for next supply to us mongers.

I see Romania on TV or magazine and I get automatic boner LOL![/QUOTE]The russian girls have moved to the UK in the past year or so, two years ago it was mostly Romanian girls at the London agencies but then the floodgates opened. They seem to charge more for both regular service and extras.

[QUOTE=Edwin1;2180779]Which city has better clubs Dusseldorf or Cologne? I'm about to come vacation next month with small budget and try out 2 clubs. I've tried Oase and Sharks before and I'm looking for something similar.[/QUOTE]The cities are adjacent to each other so what's in one city is accessible from the other city. But to technically answer your question, Dusseldorf has more clubs close to its city center with Oceans being the only club technically within city limits. Living Room in Kaarst is right outside the Dusseldorf city limit and you would probably get more people on this board recommending it than any other although I am not personally a fan.

Other clubs way out of the city center that are also board favorites are GoldenTime and Acapulco. Both are 30-40 minute drives from the Dusseldorf City Center and are both a pain in the ass to reach via public transport. Both clubs are roughly 1 hour drives from Cologne city center.

Cologne has both Samya and Mondial within city limits. Samya has a fair amount of fans and is the more popular of the 2 clubs. Side note: the 10 level Pascha club is located in Cologne.

Basically, the answer to your question is probably Dusseldorf as it puts you about 15-20 minutes closer to clubs like LR, GT, and Acapulco while Cologne only puts you closer to Samya.

[QUOTE=Downandup;2180785]The russian girls have moved to the UK in the past year or so, two years ago it was mostly Romanian girls at the London agencies but then the floodgates opened. They seem to charge more for both regular service and extras.[/QUOTE]Well lucky you mate, Russian girls are hot, they are like other extreme of beauty from eastern Europe, other side being Romanian. Tanned Latin beauty and cold white beauty girls kinda comparison.

Need Russian back to FKK scene in Germany, Austria and Zurich more!

[QUOTE=Sirioja;2179696]Why do you want girls who claim to get business in Dubai, UK or Switzerland, come to work for everything asked for only 50? Girls I know who moved to Switzerland don't plan to return to Germany for less than half rate. Girls want money.[/QUOTE]Could be too much stress in Switzerland. Could be too much competition in Switzerland. Could be not enough customers in Switzerland. I believe Luana GT worked in Switzerland before. She came back to Germany.

I know one tall blond escort from Hamburg who charged only 150 EUR per hour and she was always overbooked. After our 60 minute session, she showed me her phone. 30 missed calls. At 150 EUR per hour, I think she can make 40 bookings in the week, so 6000 per week. If she increased her rate to 500 EUR per hour, I think she would have 0-1 bookings each day, so maybe only 2000 per week.

See attached graph. At least with nurses in a study that took place in Minnesota, when employers offered $80K, there was a surplus of nurses (41K were willing to work, but only 32K available jobs). When employers were offering only $55K, there was a labor shortage (45K available jobs, but only 20K willing workers). Conclusion: When pay is good, many are willing to work. When pay is bad, people would rather stay home, move to a different location to work, or choose a different profession.

Can we agree that there is an surplus of WGs at most FKKs? Even though the official rate is only 50 EUR per 30 minutes, many WGs still seem eager to work. Does that suggest that the rates are set correctly?

Many would argue that there is a shortage of "stunner-level" WGs. Jnpr, would surely say, that 50 EUR buys you less and less service. In other words, the Hessen megaclub WGs all see 50 per 30 minutes as a "suggested price". They are confident that they can easily make more than this, and that is why they are willing to work.

https://opentextbc.ca/principlesofeconomics/chapter/4-1-demand-and-supply-at-work-in-labor-markets/

[QUOTE=Takedown;2180811]Cologne has both Samya and Mondial within city limits. [/QUOTE]If you want to mention Mondial for Cologne, I guess you could mention Magnum in Dusseldorf as well. Neighter are any big favourites on this board however, but Magnum is quite easy reach by bus / train within Dusseldorf (Erkrath).

[QUOTE=McAdonis;2180845]Could be too much stress in Switzerland. Could be too much competition in Switzerland. Could be not enough customers in Switzerland. I believe Luana GT worked in Switzerland before. She came back to Germany.

I know one tall blond escort from Hamburg who charged only 150 EUR per hour and she was always overbooked. After our 60 minute session, she showed me her phone. 30 missed calls. At 150 EUR per hour, I think she can make 40 bookings in the week, so 6000 per week. If she increased her rate to 500 EUR per hour, I think she would have 0-1 bookings each day, so maybe only 2000 per week.[/QUOTE]I have met probably around 30 girls in FKK's in Germany / Slovenia and Austria who has left Globe for all sorts of reasons. But I suspect the main problem at Globe is what you point out: lack of customers. Higher competition and as most of them say: more stress! They need to be on diet. No sitting unless some guy is with them. Etc etc etc. Many girls say they will not return to globe.

Why some FKK girl upsell for licking ball, yet other girl provide licking ball as standard services?

[QUOTE=Jolokia;2180932]Why some FKK girl upsell for licking ball, yet other girl provide licking ball as standard services?[/QUOTE]Soon they be charging for looking at them, well if it get worst, we got Zurich.

[QUOTE=McAdonis;2180857]See attached graph.
Can we agree that there is an surplus of WGs at most FKKs? Even though the official rate is only 50 EUR per 30 minutes, many WGs still seem eager to work. Does that suggest that the rates are set correctly?

Many would argue that there is a shortage of "stunner-level" WGs. Jnpr, would surely say, that 50 EUR buys you less and less service. In other words, the Hessen megaclub WGs all see 50 per 30 minutes as a "suggested price". They are confident that they can easily make more than this, and that is why they are willing to work.

https://opentextbc.ca/principlesofeconomics/chapter/4-1-demand-and-supply-at-work-in-labor-markets/[/QUOTE]In theory there should not be any surplus other than short-term and locational imbalances. When there is a short term surplus, some girls will move to another club or return to Romania.

As long as Romanians can freely come to work in German FKKs, there will be a clearing price where the demand and supply curves meet for each quality of girls in each location. The quality of the girls and the location matters as they determine the demand curves. The supply curves are determined by wages in Romania and cost of living in each location in Germany.

So, there are multiple demand and supply curves, and the 50 euro per minute is just the base from which negotiation starts. Stunners of course see a much higher demand curve and thus command higher prices for the same service. While the fat Asian at Sharks has to lower her price to 30 euros and include additional services from what I hear due to the lower demand curve of girls of her quality.

In Globe, the supply curve is shifted drastically leftwards due to quality controls imposed by the club (and partly the cost of living for the girls there), hence the ability to set the price almost double that in Germany.

I think the new condom law and registration shifts the supply curve slightly leftwards also as some girls fear getting booted out of the club if exposed. The price for the same set of services thus goes up, through extra charging for BBBJ where they can get away with it. In the event that some customers are actually one day caught and prosecuted and this is widely publicised, the demand curve would then shift downwards and prices might go back down somewhat.

And here is my hypothesis on what happened to World. Misguided management about 3 years ago thought that they could spur demand by controlling supply through the imposition of strict timetables on the girls. The strict regime reduced the cost-benefit of the better ones and drove them off to other clubs. The perceived reduction of the quality of the supply shifted the demand curve permanently down (damage to brand), resulting in lower prices (reflected in lowered entry fees) and reduced quantity.

Very hard for the club to reverse this without spending a large amount of money on a sustained basis to restore the brand. Their efforts in the last 2 years to increase numbers of customers through cheap entry promotions expectedly failed. Only economics solution is to move the supply curve of stunners by subsidising them for a sustained period to restore the brand. But then, in the real world, this would probably lead to a revolt by the rank and file.

[QUOTE=Jolokia;2180932]Why some FKK girl upsell for licking ball, yet other girl provide licking ball as standard services?[/QUOTE]I've never paid to get my nuts sucked and never will! And plenty of girls have done that for me too. I never ask for it. I think for some things, if you ask for it, then a swindling gold digger with only short-term thinking in mind will try to make some extra money off of you. Don't pay these tutes extra to get your nuts sucked! Same thing with kissing. I like it (getting nuts sucked and kissing), but never asked for it and never paid extra for either one. One thing I have noticed over the years is that the Polish girls and the Brazilian girls are the ones who seem to be particularly fond of suckling on them there nuts! Weird.

I really like the smaller clubs with a cozy atmosphere and I also have a preference for places where girls are generally willing to go all the way right there on the couch. Eva's Tabulose in Monchengladbach was ideal but now closed I think. Blue Note in Dusseldorf was another personal favorite but also closed. Today, my best bet is Bernds and then one or two of the smaller RTCs like Grimberg but even smaller would be better. FKK or flat rate is both fine.

Any suggestions from the ISG's gurus out there?

[QUOTE=TankTank123;2180977]Very hard for the club to reverse this without spending a large amount of money on a sustained basis to restore the brand. Their efforts in the last 2 years to increase numbers of customers through cheap entry promotions expectedly failed. Only economics solution is to move the supply curve of stunners by subsidising them for a sustained period to restore the brand. But then, in the real world, this would probably lead to a revolt by the rank and file.[/QUOTE]I agree with your post mainly here and especially on what I haven't quoted. But to add a few things:

- The cheap entry promotions did work on an economic basis even if world probably didn't gain from it, the total pool of money earned by the girls in the entire sub-group of the prostitution industry competing with World (including Oase, Sharks, Palace etc) all gained, while the clubs themselves lost an equal amount of market share of the total money pool spent. And this shift added income to the girls which some of them may have abused in attaining easier upsells. The big problem I see with this is just the general idea of all upsells being 50 euro instead of 10 euro or even 20. Or in the case where they would increase the market potential: just more rooms at 50 e!

- Your last idea have been used by at least two clubs from what I know. In one instance it turned out like you expected here, and several girls left the club after finding out. In the other instance there was a catch involved, and girls are thus more fine with it. I am not sure I should say too much in here regarding that though.

[QUOTE=Jolokia;2180932]Why some FKK girl upsell for licking ball, yet other girl provide licking ball as standard services?[/QUOTE]Because they always find some happy to pay more.

[QUOTE=McAdonis;2180857]See attached graph. At least with nurses in a study that took place in Minnesota, when employers offered $80K, there was a surplus of nurses (41K were willing to work, but only 32K available jobs). When employers were offering only $55K, there was a labor shortage (45K available jobs, but only 20K willing workers). Conclusion: When pay is good, many are willing to work. When pay is bad, people would rather stay home, move to a different location to work, or choose a different profession.

Can we agree that there is an surplus of WGs at most FKKs? Even though the official rate is only 50 EUR per 30 minutes, many WGs still seem eager to work. Does that suggest that the rates are set correctly?

Many would argue that there is a shortage of "stunner-level" WGs. Jnpr, would surely say, that 50 EUR buys you less and less service. In other words, the Hessen megaclub WGs all see 50 per 30 minutes as a "suggested price". They are confident that they can easily make more than this, and that is why they are willing to work.

https://opentextbc.ca/principlesofeconomics/chapter/4-1-demand-and-supply-at-work-in-labor-markets/[/QUOTE]This is slightly off topic but I feel somehow relates. Talking with Ladies in NRW, I have a strong indication their annual operating expenses are roughly €36 k unless someone is providing them a place to stay. This quite frequently includes the cost to stay at club provided "Hotel" which probably falls below what is considered minimal standards for refugees, which the ladies pay €15-25 per night with restrictions applied by the club such as minimum working hours, control of start time and days off, etc. The reason the club can apply such requirements are largely related to a couple factors: landlords won't rent to the women because they don't have a work contract or they fear the women will entertain from the home, ladies don't want to be locked into a long term contract which would prevent them from moving on if business is bad.

Another thing I find interesting is that many women say that medical treatment in Germany or the Netherlands is too costly because they don't fall into the local national insurance systems. Many fly back to their home countries for medical treatment. This may change after the ladies have been enrolled in the local tax systems for the first year.

Given these conditions for housing and medical treatment, I feel that it increases the likelihood that women coming from countries with a lower standard of living will be found in FKK / Sauna clubs.

[QUOTE=Jolokia;2180932]Why some FKK girl upsell for licking ball, yet other girl provide licking ball as standard services?[/QUOTE]Pure upsell. A foolish basis for this is common "knowledge" among some girls that man's balls come to physical contact with his asshole, therefore, it's dirty and price wise should be on par with rimming. Instead of paying extra, ask a girl why, and if you hear this or similar misconception, educate her.

The second reason may be hairy balls. Shaved balls and trimmed or shaved pubic hair makes it much easier for a girl to include BL in her standard BJ service.

[QUOTE=TankTank123;2180977]In theory there should not be any surplus other than short-term and locational imbalances. When there is a short term surplus, some girls will move to another club or return to Romania.

As long as Romanians can freely come to work in German FKKs, there will be a clearing price where the demand and supply curves meet for each quality of girls in each location. The quality of the girls and the location matters as they determine the demand curves. The supply curves are determined by wages in Romania and cost of living in each location in Germany..[/QUOTE]I actually find Romanian girls fair for upselling and matter the fact, they do not upsell at all to me, it is Germans who try to upsell hardcore. Romanains always give me fair session, Romanian only lie about their nationality claiming to be Spanish or Italian, but never up sell me.

[QUOTE=Pistons;2180924]If you want to mention Mondial for Cologne, I guess you could mention Magnum in Dusseldorf as well. Neighter are any big favourites on this board however, but Magnum is quite easy reach by bus / train within Dusseldorf (Erkrath).[/QUOTE]Why? Mondial is in Cologne and Magnum is not in Dusseldorf. The address speaks for itself. Furthermore, Mondial is the exact same distance from Cologne city center as Samya. See attached images.

Plus Mondial is worth mentioning for its 30 Euro pricing.

[QUOTE=Chongmal;2181096]This quite frequently includes the cost to stay at club provided "Hotel" which probably falls below what is considered minimal standards for refugees, which the ladies pay 15-25 per night with restrictions applied by the club such as minimum working hours, control of start time and days off, etc. The reason the club can apply such requirements are largely related to a couple factors: landlords won't rent to the women because they don't have a work contract or they fear the women will entertain from the home, ladies don't want to be locked into a long term contract which would prevent them from moving on if business is bad.
[/QUOTE]I never really feel that girls live in harsh conditions at most clubs. From the pics and videos I've seen, it's similar to living in a university dormitory. They have roommates much like university students. You share showers and bathrooms. Most clubs also have a common area for cooking and eating. Since these girls are also in their early 20's, it is very much like they are going to university. Oase, Sharks, Mainhattan, and World have this set up. These same clubs do not really impose restrictions. They just have to pick between day shift or night shift and work the required hours for that shift. I heard some girls mention that years ago Mauro at Oase made girls who stayed in the dorms ask permission to leave the club on their days off. Apparently he does not do that anymore.

There are some clubs that also provide a rental house a couple of kilometers nearby. I know Living Room, GoldenTime, and and Finca have properties a few kilometers away for girls to rent. Girls say that it is just a normal house where they share a bedroom with other girls.

There are however a few clubs that may fall under your refugee comparison. They (illegally) allow girls to sleep in the working rooms and provide nothing else. The only good part is that the girls tell me that the club does not charge them extra so long as they just pay the daily entry.

One club in Cologne sets some girls schedule in exchange for free lodging and free entrance. Her day would go something like this: Club opens at 11am and she must be ready. She works until 4pm when she can take a break. She goes and sleeps in one of the upstairs rooms and must return by 7pm. She then has to work until closig time around 3am and as late as 6am if the club manager decides to keep the club open later on weekends or busy Messe days. On really bad days, she has to wake up and return to work at 11am and do it again. Thats a brutal couple of work days especially considering hours of being pounded. A heartbreaking thing I overheard while in the club was when she was so tired after pulling that schedule for 3 days straight, she asks a manager at 2:30am if she could call it a night and he just said no and that she must work until closing time. There were a dozen other girls free and he wouldnt even give her 30 minutes. At least she just stayed with me on the couch for 30 more minutes. She was basically asleep on my lap the whole time.


As far as private rentals, 2 years ago one girl told me that once she got her tax papers, her rent went from 1400 euro / month to 800/ month.

[QUOTE=Sirioja;2179696]Girls I know who moved to Switzerland don't plan to return to Germany for less than half rate. Girls want money.[/QUOTE]Jana at Aca returned from Switzerland.

Ellie at Oase returned from Switzerland.

Ella / Kim at Oase returned from Switzerland.

Isabella at Samya returned from Switzerland.

Anja from various clubs went from Switzerland to Germany back to Switzerland back to Germany and back to Switzerland for now.

[QUOTE=McAdonis;2180845]Could be too much stress in Switzerland. Could be too much competition in Switzerland. Could be not enough customers in Switzerland. I believe Luana GT worked in Switzerland before. She came back to Germany.

I know one tall blond escort from Hamburg who charged only 150 EUR per hour and she was always overbooked. After our 60 minute session, she showed me her phone. 30 missed calls. At 150 EUR per hour, I think she can make 40 bookings in the week, so 6000 per week. If she increased her rate to 500 EUR per hour, I think she would have 0-1 bookings each day, so maybe only 2000 per week.[/QUOTE]I know a few girls from Germany to Globe: Megan, Isabella, Katalina, Jessika silicon ex World, Aurelia ex Sharks, none of them plan to return to German business. Mio told me she miss her clients at GT, but better money at Globe. Only girls who are not good enough to get business in Switzerland return to Germany. Megan is not so strong in mind, I saw her crying at Sharks, but she has no problem about Globe since 1 year.

Guy who paid me and a German girl at GT, to let him watch my foreplay, gave me information about a real model, 1,77, German escort, and I met her on first time in a club. She told me her rates, but when I asked her, returning from room, how much she wanted? 200 for 2 hours, despite many extras. Anywhere we met later, always 50 per 30 mn, extras included. Exceptional in bed, exceptional stamina, great beauty, on December and January.

[QUOTE=Takedown;2181157]Why? Mondial is in Cologne and Magnum is not in Dusseldorf. The address speaks for itself. Furthermore, Mondial is the exact same distance from Cologne city center as Samya. See attached images.

Plus Mondial is worth mentioning for its 30 Euro pricing.[/QUOTE]OK, I admit you are right here. But technicalities. LR and Magnum are the same distance from Dusseldorf it seems too as a random fact.

[QUOTE=BigBuddy69;2181044]Because they always find some happy to pay more.[/QUOTE]I am not a fan of DATY on working girls and have done it on exactly one girl in all my sessions in the clubs (plus two other half hearted attempts which I abandoned after a couple of minutes). Not even on my little angel Regina. I dont think she minded. Anyway, I digress.....

With that disclaimer, if I was a fan of DATY I would be pissed beyond belief when girls demand extra money for DATY. In my view, there is **NOTHING** which requires less effort from them than DATY. No pounding, no damage to pussy, no physical effort from them, no intimacy. If they hate their job, and hate the dude's face, it is a mile away during DATY (and they can close their eyes, as if they are in orgasmic throes). Short of getting toes (or asshole) licked, I can't imagine a less intimate and sexually demanding act from the perspective of working girl than DATY.

I hear these whiny excuses "oh but they don't want to come" or "the guy's mouthwash will irritate their pussy", etc...Please! If a girl doesn't want to finish, how easy is it for her to fake a starfish pussy? As for the excuse about irritation to pussy from mouthwash, I don't even know whether to laugh or cry at such excuses.

Of all the things, I think charging an extra for pussy licking is the most eggregious ripoff I can imagine. If it were me, I am doing them a service and giving them pleasure and they would need to pay me for DATY.

[QUOTE=TankTank123;2180977]In theory there should not be any surplus other than short-term and locational imbalances. When there is a short term surplus, some girls will move to another club or return to Romania.

As long as Romanians can freely come to work in German FKKs, there will be a clearing price where the demand and supply curves meet for each quality of girls in each location. The quality of the girls and the location matters as they determine the demand curves. The supply curves are determined by wages in Romania and cost of living in each location in Germany.
[/QUOTE]Some thought-provoking points that you make. But my stance is that Germany is still bursting at the seams with WGs. So these WGs are moving from one club with a surplus to another club with a surplus. To me, GT on busy nights is the only example of a club where there is a shortage of WGs. Literally three WGs in main lounge, and 40-50 mongers. It is the only club where I find myself looking at my watch, getting desperate, then lowering my standard and choosing my 8th option WG.

[QUOTE=TankTank123;2180977]
So, there are multiple demand and supply curves, and the 50 euro per minute is just the base from which negotiation starts. Stunners of course see a much higher demand curve and thus command higher prices for the same service. While the fat Asian at Sharks has to lower her price to 30 euros and include additional services from what I hear due to the lower demand curve of girls of her quality.
[/QUOTE]Observation #1: At a larger club like Sharks, the customers do not all sit there and wait for the same WGs. In other words, I don't see 80% of the men going with the same 20% of WGs. I could suggest several possible reasons for this: (1) some men are mongering under time constraints and will settle for the best option available, (2) every man's taste is different as is their definition of what constitutes a stunner, (3) some men are just lucky enough to be able to appreciate beauty of all kinds and choose based on their mood. If the above statements are true, does this not mean that 80% of the WGs have roughly the same demand curve?

Observation #2: There is probably an economic principle to more concisely describe this idea. But essentially, it would go something like this: Two hypothetical customers who have the same net worth and same income walk into an auto showroom where there are only two cars availabe: Porsche 911 and VW Passat. Customer #1 would consider purchasing the Porsche but only if the price difference between the two cars was less than $20K. Customer #2 will only consider the Porsche even if the Porsche costs $150K more.

Caveat for the above observations may be the Asian mongers who seem to all go after the same 10-15 WGs. Some of these Asian mongers are just filthy rich. Some of these mongers have modest wealth, save for months prior to each trip, but fit the profile of Customer #2 above.

[QUOTE=TankTank123;2180977]
In Globe, the supply curve is shifted drastically leftwards due to quality controls imposed by the club (and partly the cost of living for the girls there), hence the ability to set the price almost double that in Germany.
[/QUOTE]How about Artemis and the Austrians clubs who are slightly above 50 EUR per 30 min? Do they just leverage the fact that they have very few direct competitors in the immediate proximity? Seems like WGs migrate to areas where mongers are abundant. Germany has a bigger population and as the economic hub of Europe, has many foreign businessmen.

[QUOTE=TankTank123;2180977]And here is my hypothesis on what happened to World. Misguided management about 3 years ago thought that they could spur demand by controlling supply through the imposition of strict timetables on the girls. The strict regime reduced the cost-benefit of the better ones and drove them off to other clubs. The perceived reduction of the quality of the supply shifted the demand curve permanently down (damage to brand), resulting in lower prices (reflected in lowered entry fees) and reduced quantity.

Very hard for the club to reverse this without spending a large amount of money on a sustained basis to restore the brand. Their efforts in the last 2 years to increase numbers of customers through cheap entry promotions expectedly failed. Only economics solution is to move the supply curve of stunners by subsidising them for a sustained period to restore the brand. But then, in the real world, this would probably lead to a revolt by the rank and file.[/QUOTE]I am not that knowledgable on World. When there were only three mega-clubs in the region, it's geographical remoteness probably didn't hurt it as much. But once Sharks started becoming popular, World seemed to go downhill, no? With regards to promotions and attracting WGs and customers, I would say that news of the next "hot club" does not travel very fast. Sharks was at its peak for me in 2014. Many veterans had already made the switch to Sharks as their primary club. But the hordes did not appear until 2016-2017.

[QUOTE=Jolokia;2180932]Why some FKK girl upsell for licking ball, yet other girl provide licking ball as standard services?[/QUOTE]Salam Jolokia and Ramadamadingdong!

What a good, pertinent, and mature question compared to all the half-baked economic meanderings we usually get in this thread! Personally I think ball-licking is fine, but I have three rules:

1. 50 EUR. In advance and I don't take credit cards.

2. Irreproachable hygiene. No hairy tongue syndrome. No oral contact with other guys in the preceding 24 hours.

3. I will usually ask to see a copy of her accident insurance. After all these are the family jewels we are talking about. Can you hear the cries of my unborn grandchildren if anything goes wrong?

[QUOTE=McAdonis;2181345]Seems like WGs migrate to areas where mongers are abundant. Germany has a bigger population and as the economic hub of Europe, has many foreign businessmen.[/QUOTE]One poster told me about his theory on the Romanian WG circuit. Girls move from being prostitutes in Romanian suburbs to WGs in Italy where it is illegal. Then they move to legal countries to work as "escorts" in England or window girls in Belgium. All of these years prepared them for the volume they would undertake in Germany. There's a reason why these girls give up the higher hourly rates in those other countries to work for 50 euros in Germany: Volume and logistics equal more money. That's why Hessen and NRW maintain the 50 euro prices. The market still keeps the prices low because on the supply side the girls are still profiting due to the high volume on the demand side.

[QUOTE=McAdonis;2181345]I am not that knowledgable on World. When there were only three mega-clubs in the region, it's geographical remoteness probably didn't hurt it as much. But once Sharks started becoming popular, World seemed to go downhill, no? With regards to promotions and attracting WGs and customers, I would say that news of the next "hot club" does not travel very fast. Sharks was at its peak for me in 2014. Many veterans had already made the switch to Sharks as their primary club. But the hordes did not appear until 2016-2017.[/QUOTE]Like you said, news of the next hot club does not travel very fast. But that is for the hordes, aka tourists and casual mongers. Weekly, bi-monthly, and even quarterly visitors can easily gauge which club is trending if they have first hand experience or ears on the ground. I regret that because of the subjective pollution here, I don't think casual readers can accurately gauge that. We do have the recurring theme of a few guys who haven't visited the clubs in over a year making definitive claims regarding the scene. The ego guys also create noise that distract from valid information. Sifting through and finding [B]objective[/B] reports and combining it with quality first hand intel can keep one ahead of these hoards.

[QUOTE=Sirioja;2181295]Only girls who are not good enough to get business in Switzerland return to Germany. Megan is not so strong in mind, I saw her crying at Sharks, but she has no problem about Globe since 1 year.
[/QUOTE]Exactly why she does well at Globe. She's a passive follower who can keep her head down and adhere to the rules.

It's not only girls who are not good enough to get business who return. It's also girls who don't want to be treated like the management's mindless sexbots. I like girls who leave Globe. It means they are hot enough to work at Globe but have too much fire and independence to remain caged. That often translates to a hot girl who is wild in bed. Passive girls like Megan do not fit that archetype.

[QUOTE=Pistons;2181329]OK, I admit you are right here. But technicalities. LR and Magnum are the same distance from Dusseldorf it seems too as a random fact.[/QUOTE]Point was that the poster asked the question as to which city had better FKKs. The response discussed FKKs worth visiting and gave a response. Bringing up Magnum, a club that we posters agree is shit in a subsequent post was a "matter-of-fact" statement that only served an argumentative purpose.

Anyhoo, do most posters here agree that it would be logistically better to stay in Dusseldorf than to stay in Cologne if exploring multiple quality clubs?

I would hate to give bad advice to the original question asker.

[QUOTE=McAdonis;2181345]Observation #1: At a larger club like Sharks, the customers do not all sit there and wait for the same WGs. In other words, I don't see 80% of the men going with the same 20% of WGs. I could suggest several possible reasons for this: (1) some men are mongering under time constraints and will settle for the best option available, (2) every man's taste is different as is their definition of what constitutes a stunner, (3) some men are just lucky enough to be able to appreciate beauty of all kinds and choose based on their mood. If the above statements are true, does this not mean that 80% of the WGs have roughly the same demand curve?

Observation #2: There is probably an economic principle to more concisely describe this idea. But essentially, it would go something like this: Two hypothetical customers who have the same net worth and same income walk into an auto showroom where there are only two cars availabe: Porsche 911 and VW Passat. Customer #1 would consider purchasing the Porsche but only if the price difference between the two cars was less than $20K. Customer #2 will only consider the Porsche even if the Porsche costs $150K more.

Caveat for the above observations may be the Asian mongers who seem to all go after the same 10-15 WGs. Some of these Asian mongers are just filthy rich. Some of these mongers have modest wealth, save for months prior to each trip, but fit the profile of Customer #2 above.[/QUOTE]Here is my attempt to address your very pertinent observations. My apologies to forum readers who care only about girls and not the economics underlying their pricing behaviour.

On Observation #1, girls in each segment see a different demand curve. But of course, one can average them all out and produce an overall general demand curve. That is in fact what is done by governments and commentators in macro-economic analysis to understand and portray the state of the national economy. However, it becomes less useful at the micro-economic level where firms have to decide on how they want to price and sell particular products in different regions or localities.

So, addressing your points require segmental analysis. More highly desired girls (I avoid the use of the word stunner as it is subjective as you rightfully pointed out) will command a higher price, manifested in 1 hour rooms and additional amounts arising from upselling. Or in the case of Asian-hunting superstars, getting some hundreds of dollars with most of the time just sitting around, chatting and drinking. Less desired girls have to make do with the standard price and throw in perhaps additional promises to get the customer.

But to address the other points raised in these 2 observations, we have to consider the economic concept of 'Elasticity of Demand'.

First is 'Price Elasticity of Demand', which is inversely related to the gradient of the demand curve in your graph in your earlier post. In the case of a rich punter, the price elasticity of demand is Inelastic, meaning that he is willing to pay whatever price is necessary to secure his grl or his Porsche.

The price elasticity of demand is similarly inelastic for someone short of time. He has to pay 50 euros for the only doable girl he sees, even though the true utility value of that girl to him is only 30 euros. (There would however be a fortuitous match if the only girl he sees is that fat Asian pig, to whom he needs to pay only 30 euros!)

Second is Cross Elasticity of Demand which reflects the substitution effect. So, for example, a normal person might be willing to pay Evita 100 euros, but if she charges more, he would go instead for the fat Asian pig at 30 euros plus addtional services thrown in, assuming there are no other girls present. However, Badinsweet with an inelastic cross elasticity curve for superstars would only go for Evita even if she demands 200 euros and does not promise to send messages to him when he is away. (This is not a criticism, just an economics explanation :)).

[QUOTE=McAdonis;2181345]How about Artemis and the Austrians clubs who are slightly above 50 EUR per 30 min? Do they just leverage the fact that they have very few direct competitors in the immediate proximity?

I am not that knowledgable on World. When there were only three mega-clubs in the region, it's geographical remoteness probably didn't hurt it as much. But once Sharks started becoming popular, World seemed to go downhill, no? With regards to promotions and attracting WGs and customers, I would say that news of the next "hot club" does not travel very fast. Sharks was at its peak for me in 2014. Many veterans had already made the switch to Sharks as their primary club. But the hordes did not appear until 2016-2017.[/QUOTE]To address these points, we need to tackle a wholly different area of economics under Monopolistic Behaviour where basis for the demand and supply curves from those under Perfect Competion . Economic theory shows that the clearing price increases the greater the monopolistic position. There is almost perfect competition in Frankfurt which is why most can still get away with 50 euro sessions, while Artemis is a monopoly in Berlin. Similarly the Austrian clubs which are located quite far apart.

And my contention is still that World went downhill due to misguided management that drove the girls away, instead of finding ways to retain their top girls so that Sharks had no chance to grow.

Mauro also made a serious miss-step at around the same period in charging girls for food and having the silly 1-meal only for guests rule. The miss-steps by World and Oase drove many, including myself, to spend more time at Sharks.

And it was a self-reinforcing cycle; the resulting higher demand curve at Sharks led to increased supply, from about 40 girls when I first went there in the year it opened to almost 200 now! This led to greater profit margins that was ploughed back to infrastructure, increasing the attractiveness of the club, and thus raising the demand curve further. In contrast, note the amount of money wasted in Oase erecting all those Roman statues and building the over-priced VIP accomodation.

[QUOTE=Takedown;2181267]Jana at Aca returned from Switzerland.

Ellie at Oase returned from Switzerland.

Ella / Kim at Oase returned from Switzerland.

Isabella at Samya returned from Switzerland.

Anja from various clubs went from Switzerland to Germany back to Switzerland back to Germany and back to Switzerland for now.[/QUOTE]I would add Kitty from YY as a recent return. She left YY for Switzerlanf about a month ago and was seen back at YY this past weekend. Sometimes it's better to be the big fish in a little pond than a little fish in a big pond.

[QUOTE=Jolokia;2180932]Why some FKK girl upsell for licking ball, yet other girl provide licking ball as standard services?[/QUOTE]Some girl say they don't like it.

Makes them retch.

Some girls just love balls and just enjoy suckling on your balls like a new born babe at its mother's breast.

[QUOTE=Takedown;2181267]Jana at Aca returned from Switzerland.

Ellie at Oase returned from Switzerland.

Ella / Kim at Oase returned from Switzerland.

Isabella at Samya returned from Switzerland.

Anja from various clubs went from Switzerland to Germany back to Switzerland back to Germany and back to Switzerland for now.[/QUOTE]I almost feel like 20% of all the girls I talk on the issue of former clubs have worked at Globe at one time. There are so many I lost count. Very high ratio or girls at Marina and Wellcum have worked there also. Raissa at Oase come to mind. A brunette at sharks who claimed to be Moroccan / German. Crina who I met at Palace once (wonder where she went). Etc etc.

Tanktank: interesting theoretical point you make on the price elasticity. The clue is to hide it from the girls. Because they discuss between themselves what our levels on this matter is. Thus to me I think of it as a psychological game sometimes. The trick is to try and hide it from the girls. I normally fail at this one (LOL), but sometimes I hit the jackpot. Girls have that intuition which is so hard to trick! LOL! But then again, my price elasticity is rather low, so if I feel a girl is trying to abuse me regarding it, I will just pick up random girl #8, like McAdonis says he did at GT. I believe it was our retired nickname HB who once said something like: 'It is unfair to the other girls if you pay one girl more than the rest'. Perhaps the smartest thing I have read from that nick.

[QUOTE=Chongmal;2181454]I would add Kitty from YY as a recent return. She left YY for Switzerlanf about a month ago and was seen back at YY this past weekend. Sometimes it's better to be the big fish in a little pond than a little fish in a big pond.[/QUOTE]Nice add. I would have thought another poster would have mentioned this. I guess she didn't want him to know.

[QUOTE=TankTank123;2181450]Here is my attempt to address your very pertinent observations. My apologies to forum readers who care only about girls and not the economics underlying their pricing behaviour.[/QUOTE]Ya lahwy, Tankx2, you shouldn't have to apologize for that. I was only yanking your chain.

As far as the economics of pricing go, how about using taxi drivers as an analogy? They're similar. Half of them will go corrupt if regulation is lax. Half of them will stay good and just try to do their job in any case. Maybe 5-10% of them are smart enough to have a real conversation (I'm thinking of a poor country, which improves the analogy). And many of them will try to drive you round the long way, so you better keep your eye on the meter.

In well-run countries the price is standard and set by the meter. In poorly-run ones, where no-one is monitoring the taxi drivers, they will try to negotiate prices with the customer, and this will always be higher than the standard. As time goes by they invent more and more tricks and get more and more roguish, while the honest ones are pushed out of business. The result is that nobody wants to take a taxi any more. So this is an example where "the market sets the price" and the market ends up destroying itself.

In the case of WGs it's even worse, I would argue, because no guy wants the stress of haggling in the middle of a blowjob. So the girl is destroying the value she is supposed to be providing. You can't sell a no-value service. Boom goes the market.

[QUOTE=Chongmal;2181454]I would add Kitty from YY as a recent return. She left YY for Switzerlanf about a month ago and was seen back at YY this past weekend. Sometimes it's better to be the big fish in a little pond than a little fish in a big pond.[/QUOTE]She was also there last summer & returned to GT then to YY.

[QUOTE=TankTank123;2181450]On Observation #1, girls in each segment see a different demand curve. But of course, one can average them all out and produce an overall general demand curve. That is in fact what is done by governments and commentators in macro-economic analysis to understand and portray the state of the national economy. However, it becomes less useful at the micro-economic level where firms have to decide on how they want to price and sell particular products in different regions or localities.

So, addressing your points require segmental analysis. More highly desired girls (I avoid the use of the word stunner as it is subjective as you rightfully pointed out) will command a higher price, manifested in 1 hour rooms and additional amounts arising from upselling. Or in the case of Asian-hunting superstars, getting some hundreds of dollars with most of the time just sitting around, chatting and drinking. Less desired girls have to make do with the standard price and throw in perhaps additional promises to get the customer.
[/QUOTE]Thanks for the explanation of the principles.

Even the top superstar at Sharks, I have a hard time imagining that she makes quadruple or even triple the median WG. Speculating about the average salary would be guesswork, but I don't think the deviation between salaries is that high. If the median, is let's say 50K EUR net, I'd guess that 95 percent of the WGs are between 70K and 40K. My reasoning: With 200 WGs at Sharks, there is a lot of competition, and it becomes harder to stand out from the pack. Even if a superstar generates 10x more interest than the median WG, it would be hard for her to monetize on this demand, simply because she can't clone herself to satisfy the surplus demand for her. Some would say, "Well she earns passive income via Whatsapp and Western Union. Or she can establish her own rates". But how many of these whale customers (potentially fictional) exist?

With regards to inelasticity, I once met a guy who told me he made $70K gross, but spent $25K a year on the hobby. I am not criticizing this lifestyle. You only live once. But it'd be a mistake if he thought other mongers are as hardcore as he is. Is this trend of overbidding due to the fact that many mongers are over-estimating the demand for their must have WGs? I also once had a roommate who collected Air Jordan sneakers. He'd eat instant noodles for a month to be able to afford $2000 shoes. He'd travel long distances. Wait hours in front of stores. His obsession meant that he had to visit forums to find like-minded individuals. Why? Because 99.999 percent of the world just see trainers as trainers, spending between $50-150. I get the impression that some mongers are "limited edition collectors" and assume others are like them, resulting in unnecessary, imaginary bidding wars.

[QUOTE=Pistons;2181470]I almost feel like 20% of all the girls I talk on the issue of former clubs have worked at Globe at one time. There are so many I lost count. Very high ratio or girls at Marina and Wellcum have worked there also. Raissa at Oase come to mind. A brunette at sharks who claimed to be Moroccan / German. Crina who I met at Palace once (wonder where she went). Etc etc.[/QUOTE]Most stunners I met at German FKK clubs said they worked at globe, most only spot go to globe as it is strict club.

These girls are rather free spirited so they cannot bare strict code for long time, but as long as globe provide good line up that changes, this trend of girls just spot going to globe for limited time serve our interest as we monger favor good line up that changes often so we can try new stunners, which is my problem in recent years.

However, at least I still do find 3 or 4 new stunners added every year still, but I do miss each time crazy amount of new stunners to fuck back in early years of 2010's. Globe may serve my interest as refresh line up can be good for mongers who seek for new stunners each time I go.

Artemis has quite new talents always, but quality of new girls dropped dramatically and old plastic graffiti painted big body girls stayed on. So I had to keep distance. Oceans actually got new talents all the time, but I almost always end up going with same girls there as new girls tend to be not stunner enough for me.

In the world of FKK, girls rotate around as much as monger rotate around, but these girls are more or less all in same pond going to few set clubs that they like between Switzerland, Germany and Austria and occasionally escort service.

There are only 24 hours in a day, so the difference between a highly sought after girl and a middling girl has to come from other factors. Such as: extras, gifts, hotel visits at high prices, and so on. Obviously, gifts and hotel visits have no theoretical upper limits.

I doubt that there are any girls making north of quarter million a year, esepcially after (entry, stay) expenses.

[QUOTE=TankTank123;2181450]

First is 'Price Elasticity of Demand', which is inversely related to the gradient of the demand curve in your graph in your earlier post. In the case of a rich punter, the price elasticity of demand is Inelastic, meaning that he is willing to pay whatever price is necessary to secure his grl or his Porsche.

.[/QUOTE]I agree with most of what you wrote in your well reasoned and articulated comment; however, I would disagree that price elasticity of demand has anything to do with being rich -- whether it comes to a girl or a Porsche. It depends on his utility or indifference curve. Of course, if the price is so high that it is beyond his budget, there is no intersection; it is simply out of his reach (like me wanting to fuck Jennifer Lawrence).

For example, no one would pay $20 (anyone can afford it) for a can of coke normally costing a buck; unless a specific person derives a commensurate utility from it (desperately thirsty at that moment, or some other reason).

In a club, a super rich dude might not fancy Evita at all, and may be totally indifferent between Evita and girl X. On the other hand, a totally smitten regular dude may pay whatever it takes to grab her for the max amount of time, as his utility is the greatest from acquiring that session.

So, from a girl's pov, she needs to catch not the super rich dudes but the super smitten dudes and fleece them completely until (a) they are out of money (b) they snap out of the dream.

[QUOTE=Takedown;2181267]Jana at Aca returned from Switzerland.

Ellie at Oase returned from Switzerland.

Ella / Kim at Oase returned from Switzerland.

Isabella at Samya returned from Switzerland.

Anja from various clubs went from Switzerland to Germany back to Switzerland back to Germany and back to Switzerland for now.[/QUOTE]For sure, Jeni / Jana. De is so high level in bed to be able to succeed at Globe, when she is not even busy at Aca, being one of the very few German girls there. Just be serious about girls level, Globe potential is far higher than Lucy level in bed, or Wellcum for girls level in bed, just have to be able to get real potential from sexy girls.

Anja. Alb, even she is a nice girl but really not clever, was not even able to be busy at Sharks, so she went to Worms on Summer 2016, and was not accepted at Globe, but only Bumsalp. She is just not clever for this job, she can't succeed for business in Switzerland. A bit same for Kity, she is not able to work in Switzerland, as when you know a bit her, she is not able to work at crowded GT, when her very good friend Barbi was very able to be a GT star.

On the other hand, Megan is able, even not same level in bed, to compete at Globe, and prefer to be fucked for minimum 140 CHF, rather than going with everything for 50. She succeeds for her business for more than 1 year, she doesn't plan to return to Sharks, I'm happy my advice present was good for her, to thank her, and I'm proud of her, from end of August 2015 at Mainhattan when she made me dream, to Globe since end of April 2017 not so bad for her, even not modelling she could do if she got good advises, but not strong and confident enough in mind.

[QUOTE=Jnpr30;2181792]I doubt that there are any girls making north of quarter million a year, esepcially after (entry, stay) expenses.[/QUOTE]I do know one girl who makes north of 250 k. But she does also do hotel visits etc in addition to FKK'ing. Over 300 k she actually claimed, and I believe her. Mostly volume. Pretty much no upsell although hotels are higher price. You can all guess who, but I won't tell.

[QUOTE=Pistons;2181480]Tanktank: interesting theoretical point you make on the price elasticity. The clue is to hide it from the girls. Because they discuss between themselves what our levels on this matter is. Thus to me I think of it as a psychological game sometimes. The trick is to try and hide it from the girls. I normally fail at this one (LOL), but sometimes I hit the jackpot. ..... But then again, my price elasticity is rather low, so if I feel a girl is trying to abuse me regarding it, I will just pick up random girl #8, like McAdonis says he did at GT. [/QUOTE]Very true. But to look for the explanation for this psycological game as you put it, one has to go beyond Econs 101 to relatively more modern economic concepts.

The rage in the last decade or so is Behavioural Economics which states that rational expectations on which Econs 101 is based does not fully hold in the real world, as the market will try to predict what the future price trajectory would be and act either to reinforce or to foil it depending on their own interests. Thus the Fed, under Bernanke and Yellen, based their analysis on what they think the population will think, and publicly pronounce their monetary policy positions in ways that they think would shape market behavior to what they desire. (Perhaps I may be too cynical, but I suspect the new Fed Chairman put in place by Trump will just do what he thinks Trump desires.)

Similarly, our favorite Sharks Dancing Pole Group work as a cartel to let it be known that kissing comes only with 100 euro rooms, and hope that gradually this would become fact. As there is no anti-competion regulator in Sharks to break the cartel, those with higher price elasticity and tourists fall for it, and they do achieve on average an increase in their overall rate.

Your last example relates to another modern concept of Economics known as Game Theory. This addresses situations which are dynamic, and is thus relevant to those who are not one-off tourists. Under game theory, one takes steps that are not always directly the most obvious, but do so with the hope of influencing future behaviour. Thus, an example would be picking random girl #8, who was not the desired target, in the hope that the desired target would be driven to assume that his utility value of her is lower than it is, so that she would lower her price in the next encounter.

Game theory is however risky if the other party is smart and calls your bluff, or is so dumb as to accept your move as the true value. We can see this happening right now between Trump and Rocket Man. What is not clear is whether they both have smart strategic advisors counselling them on how to get an upper hand through Game Theory, or whether they are both so dumb as to be just stumbling along like in games small boys play, resulting perhaps in catastrophe.

I had a similar situation about 4 years ago. One of my favorites, wanting to make sure that a competitor did not take away some of my largesse from her, once gave me the cold shoulder during an occasion where, instead of waiting for her to appear at the lounge, I took another girl first for a short session. She said that I should always wait to give her the first session, and refused to session with me. (She must have learnt this from Sirioja, or perhaps vice versa.) I called her bluff and took that same other girl first in my next visit to that club, this time when she was already present. She capitulated, and came to me subsequently begging that I would consider her my first choice again. Not bragging about this, just illustrating behavioral economics and game theory.

[QUOTE=TankTank123;2181928]Very true. But to look for the explanation for this psycological game as you put it, one has to go beyond Econs 101 to relatively more modern economic concepts.

The rage in the last decade or so is Behavioural Economics which states that rational expectations on which Econs 101 is based does not fully hold in the real world, as the market will try to predict what the future price trajectory would be and act either to reinforce or to foil it depending on their own interests. Thus the Fed, under Bernanke and Yellen, based their analysis on what they think the population will think, and publicly pronounce their monetary policy positions in ways that they think would shape market behavior to what they desire. (Perhaps I may be too cynical, but I suspect the new Fed Chairman put in place by Trump will just do what he thinks Trump desires.).[/QUOTE]Game Theory is probably the best economic theory. But it is so much more than pure economics. It is a social theory far more than an economic one. Albeit economics is also a social science too. So the money is second hand sometimes.

Men and women, yin and yang, polar opposites. I sometimes save the best for last because I need the largest turn on at the end of the night to even get a good long raise. Especially on day 3 or 4 or 5. But for girls, other metrics matters more. They think first equals favourite, and they underestimate our desire to be promiscuos. I've got one girl who has asked me several times why I never pick her first. Apart from the fact she normally arrive after I have done my first session, she seems to wonder how much I like her. It does not hamper our sessions, but it seems to make her less social outside of the room. Several times in the past I just wanted to explore different girls also, so picking random girl #8 was always part of the long term plan anyway. Perhaps the Sirioja take on having one girl in a club is best. If you want to marry her outside of the club (unless she really is the only one. There seems to be a whole lot of potential number ones all over the place however). But a mistake many girls make is to hide it badly when they have a boyfriend. Sometimes they cannot hide it at all. It is easy to find out. And if so, then why bother sticking to a girl who is obviously playing the game to get an outcome not good for your wallet? The chances of marrying a girl from an FKK is very minuscule, but it is the only reason I find to stay away from promiscuity at these clubs. A few girls apply game theory based on this, and tries to force ownership over a customer based on it. But most also make mistakes. These things are just example of how we can apply game theory. Applying the difference between yin and yang to get the outcome we want. And act as if plans are all randomized. As for the money part it makes less of an impact when being strict on a very low price elasticity. But it can matter on the social side. And this can be the tricky part that needs to be learnt. Something can be generalized, while some things are much more based on a personal basis.

An interesting distinction regarding our yin and yang is that while women wants you to faithful before you enter a relationship with them, while men consider faithfulness something to be taken lightly the whole time up untill when you are a couple. In the outside world in human societies, women's view trumps that of men's. But within the boundaries of an FKK, with its upside down norms on many issues (I won't go into details on these now), men's take on faithfulness have the upper hand. And this can be applied in game theory also. The change in social power within an FKK as opposed to outside. For both the men and women. I see many girls getting frustrated at this switch in power. One girl claimed it was like this even outside FKK's. Maybe where she comes from, but not in western Europe. So this divide needs to be understood also. Both for men and women.

In the end, the anthropological side is far more important than the tool, or definition that is economics. As it goes much further into depth of peoples minds. Psychology can also be argued to be equally important, but to me psychology almost seems like pseudoscience more often than not. Just think of ADHD. There does not exist a single good scientific basis to call this anything more than a hoax.

[QUOTE=Sirioja;2181836]Anja. Alb, even she is a nice girl but really not clever, was not even able to be busy at Sharks, so she went to Worms on Summer 2016, and was not accepted at Globe, but only Bumsalp. She is just not clever for this job, she can't succeed for business in Switzerland. A bit same for Kity, she is not able to work in Switzerland, as when you know a bit her, she is not able to work at crowded GT, when her very good friend Barbi was very able to be a GT star.

On the other hand, Megan is able, even not same level in bed, to compete at Globe, and prefer to be fucked for minimum 140 CHF, rather than going with everything for 50. She succeeds for her business for more than 1 year.[/QUOTE]Well this is not true since Anja was at Globe in 2014.

Like I said, Megan is a passive follower, fits in well at Globe where girls have to follow strict rules.

Girls with independent minds do not like to work at Globe. But some guys prefer passive girls who will not challenge them. Others prefer ones with who aren't just sex bots. Makes sex more interesting.

[QUOTE=TankTank123;2181928]Your last example relates to another modern concept of Economics known as Game Theory. This addresses situations which are dynamic, and is thus relevant to those who are not one-off tourists. Under game theory, one takes steps that are not always directly the most obvious, but do so with the hope of influencing future behaviour. Thus, an example would be picking random girl #8, who was not the desired target, in the hope that the desired target would be driven to assume that his utility value of her is lower than it is, so that she would lower her price in the next encounter.[/QUOTE]Downplaying "overeagerness" should be the natural reaction of anybody who's ever had to negotiate before (I. E. compensation package, cars, goods or services).

[QUOTE=TankTank123;2181928]I had a similar situation about 4 years ago. One of my favorites, wanting to make sure that a competitor did not take away some of my largesse from her, once gave me the cold shoulder during an occasion where, instead of waiting for her to appear at the lounge, I took another girl first for a short session. She said that I should always wait to give her the first session, and refused to session with me. (She must have learnt this from Sirioja, or perhaps vice versa.) I called her bluff and took that same other girl first in my next visit to that club, this time when she was already present. She capitulated, and came to me subsequently begging that I would consider her my first choice again. Not bragging about this, just illustrating behavioral economics and game theory.[/QUOTE]So you only had to endure two visits of ice-cold relations with your favorite? For a frequent visitor like yourself, that is a small price to pay. By holding your ground, I believe you averted future disaster. Had you apologized immediately, she simply would have come to the conclusion: I don't have to "work" for his money anymore. I can get away with anything. Or he's "smitten" by me and I can initiate the process to fleece him (to borrow from Jnpr). Your favorite clearly recognized your value to her. She panicked first and apologized first. But even if she had continued with the cold shoulder approach for another five visits, I contend that you could have apologized, and still repaired the relationship. I know some would disagree, saying "that is too late for an apology". Or I know some would never have allowed their FKK wife to see them cheat with another WG in the first place.

Based on previous conversations about wages, inflation, and increased costs of living, it seems many ISGers possess marketable skills and are not stuck in professions where salaries are stagnant. So when your employer takes you for granted and appreciates you less, do you not as highly marketable employee threaten to leave? What is the difference between your employment relationship and your monger-FKK wife relationship? Why not threaten to break up with your FKK wife off if she acts up? Worse case scenario, you come back begging for her to take you back. If you were truly "valuable" to her to begin with, you would not be easily replaced, and she would take you back. Here "valuable" can mean any number of things (your wallet, your penis size, your licking and sexual prowess, your charm, the real emotions she has for you, or a combination of all of the above).

[QUOTE=TankTank123;2181928]Similarly, our favorite Sharks Dancing Pole Group work as a cartel to let it be known that kissing comes only with 100 euro rooms, and hope that gradually this would become fact. As there is no anti-competion regulator in Sharks to break the cartel, those with higher price elasticity and tourists fall for it, and they do achieve on average an increase in their overall rate.[/QUOTE]I understand their behavior. They are in this profession to maximize earnings. I can't blame them. It may mean the Sharks loses customers in the long term, but then again the shelf life of their careers is short, so their myopic behavior is understandable. Because if Sharks popularity spirals in the next three years, and they are still around, they will just migrate to the next hot FKK club. However that does not mean I need to support their behavior by contributing my money. Alternatively, I could just indulge myself once with one of the brand name WGs, then move onto other targets. But that brand name WG better be 1 in 1000 hot!

Regarding the cartel business of Evota's group, we see similar tendencies at Oase and Artemis too. But I am not sure it always helps their overall income. To me it hampers their integrity, which is a massive turn off to me. The top income earning FKK girl I know never acts like this and is not part of a cartel. To me it seems like cartels are more run like destructive cults, with a leader who's words are the rules set. And destructive cults are dangerous. Like a cult, they also have rituals, like held back service. And they have special ceremonies, which is local chit chat, back talking and theorizing within or outside the club.

Any destructive cult should be avoided. But us men can fall into that as well. ISG members can be seen as cultists too. But then again, we hardly have any leaders. And so rituals and ceremonies fall apart as soon as they appear. The closest thing we have to rituals here is bashing of the same clubs, or same girls. Or praising certain female goddesses. As seen in the mention of names like Mandy or Evita or Dina, much like Aphrodite. And some tourists wants to check them of after reading so much about them. LOL!

[QUOTE=Pistons;2181993]Psychology can also be argued to be equally important, but to me psychology almost seems like pseudoscience more often than not. Just think of ADHD. There does not exist a single good scientific basis to call this anything more than a hoax.[/QUOTE]Trust the opinion of a random sex tourist with no clinical or scientific credentials regarding clinical molecular pathophysiology or nationally peer reviewed studies. Reader should decide for himself.

[URL]https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2854824/[/URL]

[URL]https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3016271/[/URL]

[URL]https://academic.oup.com/hmg/article/14/suppl_2/R275/663261[/URL]

[URL]https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamapsychiatry/fullarticle/482582[/URL]

[URL]http://www2.uned.es/psicofarmacologia/stahl4Ed/contenidos/Tema5/documentos/C12D_1.pdf[/URL]

How often clinicians correctly diagnose it is a whole other matter.

[QUOTE=Pistons;2182089] Or praising certain female goddesses. As seen in the mention of names like Mandy or Evita or Dina, much like Aphrodite. And some tourists wants to check them of after reading so much about them.[/QUOTE]I do not recall much mention of Aphrodite. To me, she was perhaps the precursor of the current Dance Pole Group behaviour. I think it was about 3 years ago, when she normally hovered in the area between the Yellis/Delia group and the German girls table, that I approached her and she insisted on nothing less than 100 euros to go for a session (back then, it was rare in Sharks). So, I never sessioned with her, and she never asked me again since then. Pity, as her body fitted my desired specs.

Or maybe you were referring to the mythical Aphrodite? Not sure how much she would charge! Maybe McAdonis might know, being a descendant of someone she had sessioned with in early days?

A cartel can only work if the supply is limited and the cartel members have a strong control of the supply, and / or the demand is somewhat inelastic. Even OPEC only functioned sproadically and semi effectively, and that is for a product for which the world didn't have a ready substitute back then (or even now).

If I form a one man cartel and withhold my employment services unless my excessive comp demands are met, well all it would lead to is my long term unemployment and retirement.

In Sharks, Evita et al have a somewhat functioning cartel to the extent their Asian prey keep acting as if there is no substitute (there are, nearly 100 of them). But she has to be congratulated for creating this illusion of cartel in her clinetele mindset.

I don't think there are too many cultish trends among ISG memebrs. First of all, the same 20 to 30 guys keep writing regularly. Even among those, there is a “healthy” amount of disagreement - not exactly a sign of cult. Yes, from time to time, a certain girl gains more notoriety and name gets mentioned a lot, but that is not a sign of a cult. Janine and Sylvana had their names mentioned a lot, but the only cult members of the former were her Teutonic guard who don't post here; and other than Nille there is no cult fan of the latter that I know of.

If there is a cult issue I notice here, it is a mindset that guys are entitled to everything especially BBBJ and DFK for 50, and fail to understand that everything changes with time. Actually even here, I am sensing a resigned tone among regular ISGers these days.

[QUOTE=Takedown;2182137]Trust the opinion of a random sex tourist with no clinical or scientific credentials regarding clinical molecular pathophysiology or nationally peer reviewed studies. Reader should decide for himself..[/QUOTE]Where did I state 'allways'? I said 'more often than not'. That is a massive difference. Psychology has a lot of studies backing a lot of it, but not all of what psychology dabbles in. Like you point out, the molecular pathophysiology part is a main thing. And I have several times referred to oxytocin and brain chemicals. But that is just one part of psychology. I am a doctor by the way.

Regarding ADHD, it is still largely up for debate and a massive amount of the diagnosis are purely subjective. The subjective side of psychology is what I referred to. Childhood psychological problems can also be attributed to differences in growth between individuals, diets, sleeping disorder etc etc. All effecting hormones which again affect all sorts of brain chemicals and functions. Thus most of your linked studies are probably irrelevant. I just read through on of them.

[URL]https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4443828/[/URL]

[URL]https://www.health.harvard.edu/staying-healthy/blue-light-has-a-dark-side[/URL]

[URL]https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3598008/[/URL]#S2 title.

[URL]https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5266211/[/URL]

[URL]https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/7505423/[/URL]

[QUOTE=Takedown;2182137]Trust the opinion of a random sex tourist with no clinical or scientific credentials regarding clinical molecular pathophysiology or nationally peer reviewed studies. Reader should decide for himself.

[URL]https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2854824/[/URL]

[URL]https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3016271/[/URL]

[URL]https://academic.oup.com/hmg/article/14/suppl_2/R275/663261[/URL]

[URL]https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamapsychiatry/fullarticle/482582[/URL]

[URL]http://www2.uned.es/psicofarmacologia/stahl4Ed/contenidos/Tema5/documentos/C12D_1.pdf[/URL]

How often clinicians correctly diagnose it is a whole other matter.[/QUOTE][URL]https://www.nytimes.com/roomfordebate/2016/02/01/is-the-adhd-diagnosis-helping-or-hurting-kids?ref=opinion[/URL]

Children growing out of ADHD:

[URL]https://www.action.org.uk/our-research/attention-deficit-hyperactivity-disorder-adhd-why-do-some-children-grow-out-their-disor[/URL]

Diet and mental health:

[URL]https://www.google.no/amp/s/amp.businessinsider.com/diet-depression-link-smiles-study-2017-4[/URL]

ADHD does not exist:

[URL]https://nypost.com/2014/01/04/adhd-does-not-exist/[/URL]

Toxic fungikiller and its effect on insuline production levels:

[URL]https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/22387882/[/URL]

ADHD largely a fraud:

[URL]http://m.spiegel.de/international/world/child-psychologist-jerome-kagan-on-overprescibing-drugs-to-children-a-847500.html[/URL]

Changing educational paradigms:

[URL]https://youtu.be/zDZFcDGpL4U[/URL]

[QUOTE=TankTank123;2182152]Or maybe you were referring to the mythical Aphrodite? Not sure how much she would charge! Maybe McAdonis might know, being a descendant of someone she had sessioned with in early days?[/QUOTE]Yes I was indeed. LOL!

[QUOTE=Takedown;2182028]Well this is not true since Anja was at Globe in 2014.

Like I said, Megan is a passive follower, fits in well at Globe where girls have to follow strict rules.

Girls with independent minds do not like to work at Globe. But some guys prefer passive girls who will not challenge them. Others prefer ones with who aren't just sex bots. Makes sex more interesting.[/QUOTE]But Anja who was one of the prettiest at Sharks, was not able to get much business, even she was nice in room, but real lack of sensuality, not GFE level for Globe, just playful, liking to bite, so she moved and moved, and she was so much bullshit at Sharks. Did you meet really meet her at Globe in 2014?

Who did Megan follow? From Mainhattan to Globe, except my advices. I may be the only one she really did trust in this land of bullshit, bad business, because of my behavior with her, in and out of rooms, maybe why she seems so disappointed I didn't go with her on my last visits at Globe. It doesn't change I like her, but can find at Globe so sexy and great in bed girls. One light on a little spark in my mind, even she was the only girl met at Globe, who seemed not to want to go with me, saying always being busy, but when we started in the room, she is so passionate, and even after room and shower together. Her friends were looking how she behave with me after our room.

Luana now silicon, at GT, is also not really busy at crowded GT, so how could she get good business in Switzerland?

Girls who are able to get Swiss business, have no reason to return to everything for only 50, in Germany. Mio. De say business is better at Globe, even she miss GT. Katalina could make around 5000 from Friday to Sunday, who can do this in Germany?

What these sources say is that there is an environmental component to ADHD. Cancer also has environmental components. Is cancer a hoax?

[QUOTE=Pistons;2182167]Regarding ADHD, it is still largely up for debate and a massive amount of the diagnosis are purely subjective. The subjective side of psychology is what I referred to. Childhood psychological problems can also be attributed to differences in growth between individuals, diets, sleeping disorder etc etc. All effecting hormones which again affect all sorts of brain chemicals and functions. Thus most of your linked studies are probably irrelevant. I just read through on of them.

[URL]https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4443828/[/URL]

[URL]https://www.health.harvard.edu/staying-healthy/blue-light-has-a-dark-side[/URL]

[URL]https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3598008/[/URL]#S2 title.

[URL]https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5266211/[/URL]

[URL]https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/7505423/[/URL][/QUOTE]