American Politics

[QUOTE=Elvis2008;2994614]Well, Tiny, that was what Trump ran on, populism, caring for the American people not the rest of the world. Do we care what foreigners think about how much we should be paying for THEIR drugs? The rest of the world has been fucking us in the drug world, in the defense world, and in so many other areas. Honestly, Americans are not like Europeans. We cannot name the foreign leaders but they sure know about ours. Why? Because it does not matter to us who is in charge in France or Germany. And before we had to be involved internationally because of oil, and we do not now. It is time to give the rest of the world the middle finger and let them start paying for stuff. That is what it means to be America first.

Back in 2012, Trump said he was in favor of taxing 2% of people's wealth. When asked if that would motivate people to move their money out of the USA, he said he did not think it would. I thought he was insane for saying that.

So I cannot say definitively Trump is not crazy for doing what he is doing. What I can say is that Trump has a history of saying or doing something crazy to get his way in negotiations. You make an outlandish opening offer and then back off of it. I think all the world leaders were whistling in the wind when it came to their reducing tariffs. They are not whistling now. He has their attention, so we will see what happens from here. The problem is the USA does not pay attention to the world's markets. The Colombian president was mouthing off and refused to accept back Colombian citizens until Trump threatened him with tariffs. So that got his attention and the attention of the stock market as well..[/QUOTE]Please remind us of all the Populist legislation and programs he has ever proposed, fought for and passed even when, as now, his Party controlled the House and the Senate.

His entire private and political life has been dedicated to conning the "populace" into handing him and his fellow Deadbeat family and cronies money for zippidy-doo-dah nothing in return.

He just handed the American Working Men and Women Consumers one of the biggest tax increases of all time while figuring out ways to cut popular programs for the vast majority of the American population, TRUE POPULIST programs, such as Social Security, Medicaid, Medicare in order to con suckers into thinking he is offsetting the Trillions more he wants to add to his record high deficits with tax cuts for millionaires and billionaires.

I assume you don't count American Farmers among the beneficiaries of Trump's supposedly "populist" governance, right?

How about auto workers and current Social Security and Medicaid recipients?

[QUOTE=EihTooms;2994620]Where are our "This is what winning looks like" MAGAs?

[B]Biggest stock market crashes in US history.
April 3, 2025:[/B]

[URL]https://www.bankrate.com/investing/biggest-stock-market-crashes-in-us-history/[/URL]

I am told by MAGA Repubs that it is just a wild coincidence that every one of the Historic Crashes and Declines in the USA Stock Market for the past 100 years occurred under Repub presidents and none under Dem presidents and nothing to do with the Repubs' crap economic or national security policies, stewardship and decisions.

You know, like Trump's decisions in 2018 and 2019 to defund and remove the Pandemic Prevention and Response team leadership from those Chinese labs against all expert warnings for him not to do something so dangerous and stupid.

Virtually the same decisions he is making today.

And that my suggesting otherwise is obviously the result my unreasonable partisan bias in favor of Great Dem Economic Recoveries, Jobs Creation and Bull Market Gains and against Great Repub Depressions, Recessions, Massive Jobs Losses, Stock Market Declines and Crashes.

So it must be true. Maybe a 100 year time frame isn't enough to come to a reasonable conclusion about these things and I should spend another 100 years observing this persistent pattern to make a more fair assessment of it all.

Of course, I'll only be 171 years old by then and, according to President Musk, still collecting a big fat fraudulent wasteful and abusive Social Security check every month.[/QUOTE]The 1929 crash under Hoover was like the 2020 crash under Clinton. A speculative bubble burst. Add to that the Fed raising rates, which I don't think you can blame on Hoover.

The COVID crash was caused by a virus, not Trump.

The 1987 crash was caused by automated trading strategies and portfolio insurance, and also stocks were perhaps somewhat overvalued in the short term. The indices recovered the majority of their losses in 2 days.

On the other hand, you can lay the blame for the 2025 crash at the feet of Donald Trump, a Democrat who infiltrated the Republican Party.

[QUOTE=Tiny12;2994608]Likewise, I liked this:

What they did was divide a country's bilateral trade surplus by the USA's exports to that country. That's supposed to represent the extent to which that country is screwing the USA. Because Trump's magnanimous though, he's only charging them a tariff equal to half of that ratio.

Let's take an example, and I'm pulling numbers out of the air. Say Cambodia has a $10 billion trade surplus in [B]goods[/B] with the USA. That is, it exports $10 billion more to the USA than it imports. And the USA exports $5 billion in [B]goods[/B] to Cambodia. (Please note that Trump conveniently just looks at deficits in goods, not services. That's because the USA runs a very large trade surplus in services with the rest of the world.).

Then the degree to which Cambodia is screwing the USA is $10 billion / $5 billion - 1 = 100%! And so the tariff will be 1/2 of that, or 50%. That makes a lot of sense, huh?

Now say it was reversed, and the USA was running a $5 billion bilateral trade [B]surplus[/B] in goods with Cambodia. Then the USA would "just" charge a 10% tariff on Cambodia, because that's the new minimum tariff on imported goods. Trump's just applying what he's gotten away with, err, sorry, what he's learned in the business world to government!

This system is doubly bizarre because companies are encouraged to play a game of musical chairs, shifting production from country to country to avoid high tariffs, as described in my reply to Elvis below. See the example with China, Vietnam, Costa Rica and Kenya.[/QUOTE]Just a correction here. If I'm understanding correctly, it's not USA exports that's used. It's the USA's trade deficit with a country divided by that country's exports to the USA, then half of that. Makes even less sense to me for calculating "reciprocal" tariffs. What an incredible shit storm of a cluster fuck!

[QUOTE=Tiny12;2994733]The 1929 crash under Hoover was like the 2020 crash under Clinton. A speculative bubble burst. Add to that the Fed raising rates, which I don't think you can blame on Hoover.

The COVID crash was caused by a virus, not Trump.

The 1987 crash was caused by automated trading strategies and portfolio insurance, and also stocks were perhaps somewhat overvalued in the short term. The indices recovered the majority of their losses in 2 days.

On the other hand, you can lay the blame for the 2025 crash at the feet of Donald Trump, a Democrat who infiltrated the Republican Party.[/QUOTE]The Great Repub Depression was not caused by the Fed raising Fed Funds Rates.

The Covid Crash was not caused by a virus. Viruses have been everywhere since forever. So far none of them have caused a stock market or economic crash. Coughing, sore throat, fever and deaths, yes. Economic decline, no.

The Covid Crash was caused by a Pandemic. And one for which Trump is more responsible for laying the groundwork, ushering in and exacerbating than any other person on the planet.

Trump didn't infiltrate your Repub Party.

He revealed it.

[QUOTE=EihTooms;2994684]

He just handed the American Working Men and Women Consumers one of the biggest tax increases of all time while figuring out ways to cut popular programs for the vast majority of the American population, TRUE POPULIST programs, such as Social Security, Medicaid, Medicare in order to con suckers into thinking he is offsetting the Trillions more he wants to add to his record high deficits with tax cuts for millionaires and billionaires.

I assume you don't count American Farmers among the beneficiaries of Trump's supposedly "populist" governance, right?

How about auto workers and current Social Security and Medicaid recipients?[/QUOTE]Tooms, you are so one sided your head must crook to the left. Yes, the stock market is down, but bonds are higher and yields are lower.

What was the Democratic proposal with sleepy Joe and drunk Kamala? Just keep racking up $2 trillion deficits? And paying 30% of all tax revenues away for interest payments and it kept rising year after year?

You keep bragging about how fucking great Biden was while all he did was rack up government debt. Stop with your one sided Democratic douche bullshit.

How many times have I said we have an asset bubble? How many times have I said for people to go into bonds? Sure, Trump pricked the bubble, but Biden blew the fucking thing to its monstrous state. Why the fuck do you think Buffett was in so much cash? And he was like that BEFORE Trump was elected.

As for Medicare, Medicaid, and social security, God damned right they need to be cut, and taxes need to be increased. And what is the bullshit about farmers? Everyone needs to suck it up if we are going to make any progress. The days of running massive deficits without the consequences of inflation are done.

What you Democratic douches do not get is the longest this is put off the worse it will become. You and your Democratic douche class warfare bullshit needs to stop. If we kept racking up debt like Biden was doing, what makes us economically special, never defaulting on our debt, goes out the window, and all you Democratic douches want to say and do is "It is all Trump's fault. " Get your head out of your ass.

Someone just sent me this ransom letter.

Important Update: Tariff Impacts on Prices.

Dear Valued NorthShore Customer.

As you may have seen in recent news, new federal tariffs on imported goods have taken effect, following earlier increases in February & March.

We've made every effort to shield our customers from price increases. Unfortunately, the latest round of tariffs, in addition to inflation in USA raw materials, has significantly impacted our costs.

As a result, we must implement a price increase, which averages about 5%, effective immediately.

We want to reassure you that while prices are changing, the quality of our products will not.

*You can continue to rely on NorthShore for the same high-absorbency, quick-wicking protection you've come to trust.

Our commitment to keeping our products in stock and shipping them quickly also remains unchanged. Inventory levels have returned to normal for most items.

In the meantime, here are a few ways you can save on NorthShore products:

Free Shipping: NorthShore offers free UPS Ground shipping on all orders over $125 within the contiguous US, a savings of up to $16.95 per order.

Diapers or Hookers, what should I spend my money on?

Luckily I have OAB and not Colitis! It's going to get rough soon.

I swear I saw all of this in a Simpson's episode, reality couldn't be this surreal.

Europe, aside from a few batshit crazy lunatics, is completely horrified and unified in their condemnation of America as I suspect most of the world is. I sadly think this is the beginning of the end of America's golden age, and it saddens me because for all of its faults America has given a great deal to the world. These tariffs will punish the weakest countries the most, and China will feel the pinch but this self defeating act will make ordinary Americans suffer much more than China: if we have not learned to never underestimate Chinese resolve than we deserve the outcome. When Musk laughed at their ability to make EV's, 10 years later he wasn't laughing. When US thought it led the world in AI, Deepseek has shaken the world.

And the Chinese will overcome the tariffs too, in the first instance by flooding the rest of the world with even cheaper goods, I imagine. I reckon the interest rate trajectory in Europe has taken a slight uptick downward and were I a fixed income trader I'd bet on it. Meanwhile, the vacuum left through America's "soft power" retreat will be filled even more by China, and while it's not yet strong enough to seize Taiwan, analysts say that around 2030-2032 they will be. And then they will have the only remaining advantage that America has over China presently: in microprocessors.

Trump's stupidity boggles the mind, and it's an instructive exercise in the psychology of mass madness and Group think which has taken hold of your government, making a mockery of its checks and balances and supposed democracy. I thought only Congress had a right to set tariffs?

Anyway, this is the dumbest way possible to have dealt with a current account deficit. There were other means, not least by weakening the dollar. That is if you insist the current account deficit was America's biggest problem to begin with, and I don't. The trade deficit was a simple function of America buying cheap goods for cheap prices and the issue was one of financing it, this as Tiny has suggested previously could have been through increased national savings rates.

There are have been seminal (no pun) moments in history when you can point to that it was when one empire fell and another took over. Rome in 470 odd, British empire in 1945, and now the American one in 2025.

[QUOTE=Tiny12;2994608]Likewise, I liked this:

What they did was divide a country's bilateral trade surplus by the USA's exports to that country. That's supposed to represent the extent to which that country is screwing the USA. Because Trump's magnanimous though, he's only charging them a tariff equal to half of that ratio.

Let's take an example, and I'm pulling numbers out of the air. Say Cambodia has a $10 billion trade surplus in [B]goods[/B] with the USA. That is, it exports $10 billion more to the USA than it imports. And the USA exports $5 billion in [B]goods[/B] to Cambodia. (Please note that Trump conveniently just looks at deficits in goods, not services. That's because the USA runs a very large trade surplus in services with the rest of the world.).

Then the degree to which Cambodia is screwing the USA is $10 billion / $5 billion - 1 = 100%! And so the tariff will be 1/2 of that, or 50%. That makes a lot of sense, huh?

Now say it was reversed, and the USA was running a $5 billion bilateral trade [B]surplus[/B] in goods with Cambodia. Then the USA would "just" charge a 10% tariff on Cambodia, because that's the new minimum tariff on imported goods. Trump's just applying what he's gotten away with, err, sorry, what he's learned in the business world to government!

This system is doubly bizarre because companies are encouraged to play a game of musical chairs, shifting production from country to country to avoid high tariffs, as described in my reply to Elvis below. See the example with China, Vietnam, Costa Rica and Kenya.[/QUOTE]

Since it appears that, the Americans on the MAGA lunatic fringe far-right, have punted the Rule of Law, the Constitution and given up the mental of democracy and pledged fealty, to their wannabe dictator, grifter and charlatan American Fuhrer, the rest of America should look to South Korea, as a shinning example of what REAL democracy should look like.

Yes, democracy lives on in South Korea, as their highest courts, have upheld the president's impeachment and has removed the corrupt President Yoon Suk Yeol from office, four months after unlawfully declaring martial law, on the Korean people.

[b]South Koreas impeached president is removed from office...[/b], Apr 04, 2025
[URL]https://edition.cnn.com/2025/04/03/asia/yoon-impeachment-verdict-south-korea-intl-hnk/index.html[/url]

So who while the senile U.S. Commander in Cheat and MAGA Fuhrer, continues to break the law, skirt the law and stand in contempt of the courts, while shirking has duties to the likes of, [i][b]billionaire jumping jack-asses,[/b][/i] that mocks and traumatizes the electorates and bribes Wisconsin voters with cheesehead hats and million dollar checks, as the MAGA Fuhrer, also concedes and abdicates the power of the oval office to [i][b]Elvira look-a-like goth princess influencers,[/b][/i] as he pushes the boundaries of what it is to be "king" in America, rest assured democracy in South Korea, or Wisconsin at least...is NOT DEAD YET!

[b]Democrats win in Wisconsin court race also is a big loss for Elon Musk[/b], Apr 02, 2025
[url]https://apnews.com/article/wisconsin-supreme-court-elon-musk-81f71cdda271827ae281a77072a26bad[/url]

The people of South Korea and Wisconsin, showed up on that "hill", brilliantly fought tyranny and won. I guess, this must be what winning and REAL democracy in action, looks like!

[QUOTE=Spidy;2994808]Since it appears that, the Americans on the MAGA lunatic fringe far-right, have punted the Rule of Law, the Constitution and given up the mental of democracy and pledged fealty, to their wannabe dictator, grifter and charlatan American Fuhrer, the rest of America should look to South Korea, as a shinning example of what REAL democracy should look like.

Yes, democracy lives on in South Korea, as their highest courts, have upheld the president's impeachment and has removed the corrupt President Yoon Suk Yeol from office, four months after unlawfully declaring martial law, on the Korean people.

[b]South Koreas impeached president is removed from office...[/b], Apr 04, 2025
[URL]https://edition.cnn.com/2025/04/03/asia/yoon-impeachment-verdict-south-korea-intl-hnk/index.html[/url]

So who while the senile U.S. Commander in Cheat and MAGA Fuhrer, continues to break the law, skirt the law and stand in contempt of the courts, while shirking has duties to the likes of, [i][b]billionaire jumping jack-asses,[/b][/i] that mocks and traumatizes the electorates and bribes Wisconsin voters with cheesehead hats and million dollar checks, as the MAGA Fuhrer, also concedes and abdicates the power of the oval office to [i][b]Elvira look-a-like goth princess influencers,[/b][/i] as he pushes the boundaries of what it is to be "king" in America, rest assured democracy in South Korea, or Wisconsin at least...is NOT DEAD YET!

[b]Democrats win in Wisconsin court race also is a big loss for Elon Musk[/b], Apr 02, 2025
[url]https://apnews.com/article/wisconsin-supreme-court-elon-musk-81f71cdda271827ae281a77072a26bad[/url]

The people of South Korea and Wisconsin, showed up on that "hill", brilliantly fought tyranny and won. I guess, this must be what winning and REAL democracy in action, looks like![/QUOTE]And it also lives in Brazil where that nut case Bolsonaro is being put on trial for orchestrating a coup. I really fault Biden Garland for being so weak and not seeing the Orange Stain put behind bars.

The tariff nonsense is just amazing. It's becoming more and more obvious that the vengeful senile Trump is bent on destroying America because of his anger of not being elected in 2020.

[QUOTE=Elvis2008;2994614]Well, Tiny, that was what Trump ran on, populism, caring for the American people not the rest of the world. Do we care what foreigners think about how much we should be paying for THEIR drugs? The rest of the world has been fucking us in the drug world, in the defense world, and in so many other areas. Honestly, Americans are not like Europeans. We cannot name the foreign leaders but they sure know about ours. Why? Because it does not matter to us who is in charge in France or Germany. And before we had to be involved internationally because of oil, and we do not now. It is time to give the rest of the world the middle finger and let them start paying for stuff. That is what it means to be America first.

Back in 2012, Trump said he was in favor of taxing 2% of people's wealth. When asked if that would motivate people to move their money out of the USA, he said he did not think it would. I thought he was insane for saying that.[/QUOTE]I agree with all of that Elvis, if by "stuff" you mean "their own defense. ".

[QUOTE=Elvis2008;2994614]So I cannot say definitively Trump is not crazy for doing what he is doing. What I can say is that Trump has a history of saying or doing something crazy to get his way in negotiations. You make an outlandish opening offer and then back off of it. I think all the world leaders were whistling in the wind when it came to their reducing tariffs. They are not whistling now. He has their attention, so we will see what happens from here. The problem is the USA does not pay attention to the world's markets. The Colombian president was mouthing off and refused to accept back Colombian citizens until Trump threatened him with tariffs. So that got his attention and the attention of the stock market as well.

Trump told the market what he was going to do. They blew him off as well.

I believe that Trump's goal is to have other countries lower THEIR tariffs. I think he wants his legacy to be to have the USA not to have the massive trade deficits it has and the massive budget deficits it has. If those reductions do not happen, this country is finished. Some bureaucratic idiot said it is okay if the USA runs a debt to GDP ratio of 400% because Japan did and they are fine.[/QUOTE]I agree with you as to the effect of continued large budget deficits, but not trade deficits. However, all else being equal, if you bring down the budget deficit, the trade deficit goes down too. Please refer to the identity in my last reply to you. Savings can be expressed as (Government Budget Surplus) + (Change in Private Savings). When you increase savings, by lowering the budget deficit, you can and will finance a given level of investment with a lower current account or trade deficit.

Until Trump's recent antics, we were fine perennially running trade deficits, just as Australia has been. The reason -- people want to invest in the USA, and Australia. The USA was considered a very safe and stable place, where the government and people played by the rules. The dollar was the world's reserve currency.

Unfortunately a lot of that's gone down the shitter since January 20.

Again, being a thrifty Calvinist, I'd like to see us save more and run smaller trade deficits, which go hand in hand. But the tariffs, which wreck supply chains, encourage crony capitalism, put American companies out of business and American workers out of jobs, and wrack asunder the benefits we receive from comparative advantage, are the wrong way to go about it. Trump should be pursuing more ideas like he did in his last term (deregulation, lower corporate tax rate) instead of this idiocy.

As to your other point, that Trump may be using this as a negotiating tool, a friend of mine who's more pro-Trump than you believes that. And admittedly, often when people think Trump's bat shit crazy, he's really crazy like a fox. One example is telling Kim he was going to blast North Korea off of the planet, before buddying up to him. The result was that North Korea stopped testing intermediate and long range ballistic missiles, at least until Biden was elected. The other was sending planes to bomb Iran and then recalling them at the last minute.

Trump likes for world leaders to believe he's bat shit crazy. So is it possible they'll think he's going to put the world into a recession if they don't back off on their tariff rates? And the world will end up with with freer and fairer trade after Trump finishes negotiating with them?

I don't think so. Trump's believed in tariffs all his life. He was spouting off about it in the 1980's, the 1990's, etc. He believes in tariffs as strongly as Tooms believes in the infallibility of the Democratic Party.

[QUOTE=Elvis2008;2994614]The problem with the Toomsian way of looking at things is you only look at what you want so today everything is terrible, the market is down, the dollar is down ETC. Well, bond yields went way down today and that means lower interest rates.

And treasuries are STILL massively underpriced compared to the stock market. So yeah, if you are a financial guy or a big biz guy with stock options, you got hurt. If you are in the 25 to 40 age range and could not afford a house because of high interest rates and the Biden / Fed induced bubble, today was a good day. Your dream home just got more affordable.[/QUOTE]I disagree. You take away comparative advantage and America will be a poorer place. Real wages will go down or increase more slowly if the tariffs stick, more so if the rest of the world retaliates, as it will. Not only the wealthy own stocks. A lot of people depend on stocks for a decent retirement, some directly but more indirectly through pensions and the like. Rates on 30 year mortgages, which most people get, are still around 6. 5% to 6. 7%. And while theory would call for the tariffs to just cause a step up in prices, we may end up in a wage-price spiral that results in higher interest rates and stagflation.

[QUOTE=Goatscrot;2994818]The tariff nonsense is just amazing. It's becoming more and more obvious that the vengeful [b]senile[/b] Trump is bent on destroying America because of his anger of not being elected in 2020.[/QUOTE]There are a number of older members on this board who are sharp as tacks. Trump on the other hand is going the same way as Biden. In his younger days he might have understood what's going on around him right now and pivoted. But instead he's playing golf in Miami. It's a bit like Nero fiddling while Rome burned. Except that Trump's not mad, he's just old. And stubborn.

[QUOTE=Tiny12;2994826]There are a number of older members on this board who are sharp as tacks. Trump on the other hand is going the same way as Biden. In his younger days he might have understood what's going on around him right now and pivoted. But instead he's playing golf in Miami. It's a bit like Nero fiddling while Rome burned. Except that Trump's not mad, he's just old. And stubborn.[/QUOTE]I think his narcissism has morphed into a bit of early senility. What amazes me more than anything is there are some people on this board who live off their investments, which did incredibly well under the last administration, and they still voted for the Stain. In addition we've had a fairly strong dollar, but that might be in jeopardy as well and for those of us who live overseas that's not a good thing.

Certainly would like to see the republicans in Congress stand up to this buffoon. Of course I don't think that nimrod JD Vance would be any better. Geez, I almost miss GWB now.

All of this being said if he truly was putting in reciprocal tariffs as a bargaining chip, that might not be a terrible thing; that is not what they did. This is simply going to push our allies towards China and other alliances. Isolationism has never been a good thing.

But on a more positive note the parties of administrations that put in high tariffs, which happened twice before in the united states, got slaughtered in the midterms, once losing up to 50% of their seats. Guess we can look forward to next Nov.

Now I lay a lot of the blame, as does Ralph nader, of our descent into fascism at the feet of the Democrats. We have truly dropped the ball by embracing neoliberal economic policies starting with Bill Clinton and of course the insane identity politics. It's time to get back to pro working class, pro union, anti-corporate policies that will bring the working Man back into the fold. Democrats should stand firm on universal health care, four weeks paid vacation, excellent pensions at a reasonable age, paid education through University and tech school, clean energy, the food supply devoid of pesticides and antibiotics, excellent public transportation, etc. You know, make the US a truly develop nation.

[QUOTE=Tiny12;2994823]I agree with all of that Elvis, if by "stuff" you mean "their own defense. ".

I agree with you as to the effect of continued large budget deficits, but not trade deficits. However, all else being equal, if you bring down the budget deficit, the trade deficit goes down too. Please refer to the identity in my last reply to you. Savings can be expressed as (Government Budget Surplus) + (Change in Private Savings). When you increase savings, by lowering the budget deficit, you can and will finance a given level of investment with a lower current account or trade deficit.

Until Trump's recent antics, we were fine perennially running trade deficits, just as Australia has been. The reason -- people want to invest in the USA, and Australia. The USA was considered a very safe and stable place, where the government and people played by the rules. The dollar was the world's reserve currency.

Unfortunately a lot of that's gone down the shitter since January 20.

Again, being a thrifty Calvinist, I'd like to see us save more and run smaller trade deficits, which go hand in hand. But the tariffs, which wreck supply chains, encourage crony capitalism, put American companies out of business and American workers out of jobs, and wrack asunder the benefits we receive from comparative advantage, are the wrong way to go about it. Trump should be pursuing more ideas like he did in his last term (deregulation, lower corporate tax rate) instead of this idiocy.

As to your other point, that Trump may be using this as a negotiating tool, a friend of mine who's more pro-Trump than you believes that. And admittedly, often when people think Trump's bat shit crazy, he's really crazy like a fox. One example is telling Kim he was going to blast North Korea off of the planet, before buddying up to him. The result was that North Korea stopped testing intermediate and long range ballistic missiles, at least until Biden was elected. The other was sending planes to bomb Iran and then recalling them at the last minute.

Trump likes for world leaders to believe he's bat shit crazy. So is it possible they'll think he's going to put the world into a recession if they don't back off on their tariff rates? And the world will end up with with freer and fairer trade after Trump finishes negotiating with them?

I don't think so. Trump's believed in tariffs all his life. He was spouting off about it in the 1980's, the 1990's, etc. He believes in tariffs as strongly as Tooms believes in the infallibility of the Democratic Party.

I disagree. You take away comparative advantage and America will be a poorer place. Real wages will go down or increase more slowly if the tariffs stick, more so if the rest of the world retaliates, as it will. Not only the wealthy own stocks. A lot of people depend on stocks for a decent retirement, some directly but more indirectly through pensions and the like. Rates on 30 year mortgages, which most people get, are still around 6. 5% to 6. 7%. And while theory would call for the tariffs to just cause a step up in prices, we may end up in a wage-price spiral that results in higher interest rates and stagflation.[/QUOTE]Deficits? The so-called United States debt is nothing more than the amount of dollars in circulation that haven't been taxed back yet. We're constantly gaslit to think it's importan so that we don't get the services and privileges of truly developed nations.

Every time there is attempt at balancing the budget or reducing the deficit, the private sector runs into trouble, because the private sector is a currency user not a currency issuer. The currency issuer can carry that forever, the private sector cannot.

[QUOTE=Elvis2008;2994770]Tooms, you are so one sided your head must crook to the left. Yes, the stock market is down, but bonds are higher and yields are lower.

What was the Democratic proposal with sleepy Joe and drunk Kamala? Just keep racking up $2 trillion deficits? And paying 30% of all tax revenues away for interest payments and it kept rising year after year?

You keep bragging about how fucking great Biden was while all he did was rack up government debt. Stop with your one sided Democratic douche bullshit.

How many times have I said we have an asset bubble? How many times have I said for people to go into bonds? Sure, Trump pricked the bubble, but Biden blew the fucking thing to its monstrous state. Why the fuck do you think Buffett was in so much cash? And he was like that BEFORE Trump was elected.

As for Medicare, Medicaid, and social security, God damned right they need to be cut, and taxes need to be increased. And what is the bullshit about farmers? Everyone needs to suck it up if we are going to make any progress. The days of running massive deficits without the consequences of inflation are done.

What you Democratic douches do not get is the longest this is put off the worse it will become. You and your Democratic douche class warfare bullshit needs to stop. If we kept racking up debt like Biden was doing, what makes us economically special, never defaulting on our debt, goes out the window, and all you Democratic douches want to say and do is "It is all Trump's fault. " Get your head out of your ass.[/QUOTE]There will be only one fix for this Great Repub Trump Mess that MAGAs like you have plunged us and the rest of the world into.

It has been the only fix for it throughout history. But there are numerous instances of it working. It will work again if the American electorate is smart enough to do it. Oh, and if President Musk really doesn't "know those vote counting machines very well", not so well to change the outcome of elections.

Here it is: The Democratic Party must win the White House, the majority in the House and the majority in the Senate.

If you want a slower, more painful and less effective but still reasonable fix to this Colossal Repub Mess you MAGAs pooped onto our hands and laps, then give the Dems a small majority in those two houses of Congress.

If you want a faster and greater fix to this MAGA Mess, give them Dems a sizable majority in the House and no less than 63 Senate seats.

That's it. There will be no other fix for this Mess. Too bad if you think the Dems are douches or have come to the silly conclusion that this or any other of the many Great Repub Economic Disasters over the decades are the fault of the Dems. This is the way out of it and any other notion is a total waste of time.

Oh sure, for the Super Majority of the electorate to have voted All Dem straight up and down the ballot every time in every election as I have done and recommended to be done since 1994 would easily have avoided every Great Repub Economic Disaster we have suffered ever since. Especially this one.

And we would have to do a Google Search to find out what happened in that one province of China regarding something called Corid, Covan, Covid or whatever several years ago.

And the Dow and S&P 500 would likely be at astronomical highs while eggs cost 10 Cents a dozen.

But we can't undo the dramatically opposite situation we are in today thanks to every non Dem vote that has been cast over the past 30 years. The only thing we can do is exactly what I stated above. No other way out. Sorry, MAGAs.

Uh. Trump is a McKinley-loving proponent of the Robber Baron Era and the Gilded Age where it was fine to predominantly collect taxes from Americans in the form of Tariffs as long as the ONLY things the government cared about doing was satisfying and further enriching the Super Wealthy Robber Barons who called all the shots, raped and pilaged the American Working Men, Women and Children and to deliver the mail.

Great Depressions and Great Recessions abounded, which made the Robber Barons and Super Wealthy only more powerful and wealthier and everyone else poorer.

Since then the Populist Movement replaced the predominant Tariff means of collecting revenue with a far, far, far more sensible, fairer and obviously more conducive to Making America Great predominant income tax system.

Which resulted in the ability and interest in American governance to create something called a "weekend", holidays off, less than a 10 hour workday, children who might pass the age of 12 without getting their hands chopped off in a factory machine, Social Security, Unemployment Insurance, Medicare, Medicaid and so on. ALL of which are easily affordable in a Great country like America that is AWASH in Money at all times due to our scarcely if ever being truly cheated by any other country on trade deals.

But then it is all about collecting and distributing the revenue intelligently for the sake of a complex national economy.

Uh. Your Donald J. Trump and virtually all of the Repubs in Congress are demonstrably on the Robber Baron team and not the Populist team.

[QUOTE=Goatscrot;2994830]Deficits? The so-called United States debt is nothing more than the amount of dollars in circulation that haven't been taxed back yet. We're constantly gaslit to think it's importan so that we don't get the services and privileges of truly developed nations.

Every time there is attempt at balancing the budget or reducing the deficit, the private sector runs into trouble, because the private sector is a currency user not a currency issuer. The currency issuer can carry that forever, the private sector cannot.[/QUOTE]It's not the deficit per se Goatscrot, but the national debt that's the problem. As a rule of thumb, when a developed country's level of net government debt as a % of GDP goes over 100%, it's running the risk of a meltdown, like what the southern European governments have been through. The ratio is lower for developing countries. Japan has historically been an exception because its citizens are prolific savers and invest a lot in Japanese government bonds. So there's not much external debt owed to foreigners.

Some believed the USA, which is currently around that 100% level, would be an exception too. The USA has the world's reserve currency, and our stable economy and rule of law have attracted investment and made the country the destination of choice when there's a flight to safety. Trump's upending that with his trade wars though.