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[QUOTE=TheCane;2500395]Osho speaks and keeps it real: [URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ipLST6w6INY&feature=youtu.be[/URL].[/QUOTE]In my early days of mongering I went through a phase. Back in the 1970's and early1980's I used to cruise the streets of NYC in my car and pick up street hookers for BBBJ / CIM in my car. At the time I enjoyed that as much and sometimes even more than sex and sex with hookers at the time was bare back. Those were great times.
[QUOTE=Samplerr;2500777]When I was working in Eastern Europe there was unanimous agreement amongst the expats, including many Americans, that the local product was far superior. I'm presuming that you've never visited the likes of Czech, Poland, the Baltic states or Russia during the warmer months of the year.
I've seen a higher proportion of Euro girls that keep their figure together post 30 than I ever did in the states. Partly because they smoke more, but also because they eat less junk and use public transport, or cycling, far more in Europe.[/QUOTE]If you walk around cities in the US you will see women who are just as beautiful as in Europe. I have been to most European countries and many US cities and that is my conclusion. Back in the 70's and 80's there were many US hookers within my price range who could compete in looks with European escorts. However, things are different today. The quality of hookers who would have cost $50 an hour back in the 1980's would fetch at least $1000 an hour now. Generally, hookers who charge $500 and less do not look anywhere as good as hookers who used to charge $50 back in the day. I blame nutrition and lifestyle. If I somehow become minded to try a $1000 plus hooker I would not be able to as I do not know of any elite agency that I can trust.
Obesity is linked to what and how much you eat and how much you exercise. This is true for 99% of the people. My first reco is to completely stop eating all industrial or pre cooked food, only buy fresh ingredients and cook them. Second is to stop using any kind of sugar, including soft drinks, ice cream, cakes. No sugar in your coffee. No smoking and 0 alcohol. Walking 6 hours every week and I can tell you if you follow my advice that you can eat how much you want (fruits, vegetable, meat, fish, bread, noodles, rice.) you will reduce your weight and come back to normal within 3 months.
With respect to American women not dressing well and doing much make-up when out, that is true.
Hell the magic is gone from ordinary life for most. Even though it sounds inappropriate to say, it is actually the teen girls who make the most effort. They still hold onto some magic regarding the unknown and unforeseen that might occur each day, and high schoolers still date other high schoolers they newly meet in person.
Most human interaction is now off-limits and done electronically. There are no pick-ups in stores. Christ, someone would call security if that happened. The workplace? Are you fucking kidding? Sure way to lose a job. Even a customer better dare not try for the receptionist. There are even many practical dangers for most college students meeting in person, with Title IX monitors everywhere.
She is going to dress for the kill after texting with someone she met on a dating site and has determined through those electronic exchanges that he may be a prospect. So if you see that sexily-dressed lady anywhere, including at a bar, she is there to meet someone she has an appointment with.
Life is now conducted electronically. And for what it is worth, most online escorts take clothing and make-up requests. Just ask.
[QUOTE=Pessimist;2500722]The trouble with using inflation in situations like this is that PCE deflator depends significantly on whether it is adjusted, unadjusted, formulaic, and what are the weights of various baskets. Obviously you know this but applying such a metric to two families one with a university age kid and one w / o will not be the right approach given the serious price increases we have seen in tuition over time and while the deflator does include the educational expense factor, for one family it is a very large amount and for another it is non existent and the CPI measurement includes it say at 6% (education overall, not necessarily university education). And for industries and segments which experience some shock this metric is quite ineffective. You already said there were regulatory actions and FOSTA / SESTA and shutting down of backpage etc. Such actions obviously change the price in ways that can not be explained by applying inflation in a linear fashion.
In my view, the entire pay for play industry is so outside the purview of normal economics that CPI never applies here. To the extent it does, it is a 2nd or 3rd derivative. I. e. Participants (mongers and providers) are still part of the economic system and this demand / supply is still governed by the overall economy. But the shocks have a much bigger impact. The same was seen in German clubs in 2017.
In any case, the US market is indeed moving in the direction of one to one exchanges and that change will only accelerate. What is the number of cab drivers vs ride share providers now?.[/QUOTE]Excellent points. I do think, however, that workers in most personal service activities have experienced wage inflation that exceeds CPI, so maybe that is a valid comparison?
I guess my concern is that the Seeking Arrangement system will always knock out the potential benefit of the lowest-cost provider.
In fairness to the USA Government, one of the stated reasons for going after the low-end of the USA Scene, namely Backpage, was that it was fueling the drug, especially the opioid, crisis, in rural America.
Seeking Arrangement has really tried hard to keep the riff-raff out, especially by promoting in its videos that its ladies get very large monthly allowances for things like college tuition. I suspect they are going to keep working really hard to keep the low-cost druggie girls out.
The obvious win-win is the low-priced immigrant girl who isn't a druggie, but who could really use a supplement to her regular wages, sending some back to Mexico and Asia. I have been kind of surprised that we haven't seen more reports of this. Perhaps there simply aren't as many immigrants coming into the USA For low-paying regular jobs? A long time ago when escort agencies were more prevalent, I would meet ladies who saw one customer an evening but said they valued their day job because it provided excellent health insurance. Did Obamacare change this dynamic? We are on our own with this type of economic analysis.
I just know that prices of escorts have gone up, and I rarely read SA reports of great transactional deals. I read great reports of sessions with wonderful-sounding ladies, but the overall cost is still high. Maybe it is like everything else in the USA Maybe the middle class sex worker simply went away. You have a higher-class lady who charges and makes a fortune. Often more than her customers. And a large underclass of low-priced but low-class providers we all want to avoid.
[QUOTE=MrHo;2500841]So there were many efforts by entrepreneurs to do proper prostitution ventures in USA, but fed cracked in each time something was set up properly for mongers!
I think it is due to how America really is, as freedom as they may like to portray, which they are when it comes to unusual thing like guns, but when it comes to sex, somehow, it become really strict! Why? I think it is to do with how religious America really is behind the scene!? Am I right?
On the other hand, in Europe too, it tend to be only in German speaking part of Europe that only has the proper set up for prostitution namely FKK! What is the relation between proper opened legally controlled prostitution format and German speaking part? Are Germans more kinky and liberal enough to admit the need of sex in society matched with their good organization or what is it with German speaking part and good prostitution format that is so open!?[/QUOTE]The objection I have to some of your analysis is that it focuses only on John getting quality sex at the lowest possible price.
There are many players in the transaction. Wouldn't the analysis cover the economic prosperity and happiness of the sex workers, also? You rarely seem to analyze that.
The USA System has provided some significant benefits to USA Independent escorts, who earn a very high rate per hour.
The prices are so high that many customers are unable to access the providers they want to see. That is certainly troublesome.
Germany makes a real effort to have lower prices in its FKKs. The other part of the analysis is whether it's importation of labor and the ladies needing to work shifts away from their homes is the best system for the sex workers.
[QUOTE=Samplerr;2500777]When I was working in Eastern Europe there was unanimous agreement amongst the expats, including many Americans, that the local product was far superior. I'm presuming that you've never visited the likes of Czech, Poland, the Baltic states or Russia during the warmer months of the year.
I've seen a higher proportion of Euro girls that keep their figure together post 30 than I ever did in the states. Partly because they smoke more, but also because they eat less junk and use public transport, or cycling, far more in Europe.[/QUOTE]My experience as European regular visitor to USA is that there are huge numbers of hot American girls / women up to around 22 or so. It looks like Americans do the Middle Eastern way and deteriorate quickly but I'll tell you this: if you ever find yourself in a college town your jaw will drop.
[QUOTE=Ararat;2500912]My experience as European regular visitor to USA is that there are huge numbers of hot American girls / women up to around 22 or so. It looks like Americans do the Middle Eastern way and deteriorate quickly but I'll tell you this: if you ever find yourself in a college town your jaw will drop.[/QUOTE]And your dick will rise! I love American university girls.
[QUOTE=Ararat;2500912]My experience as European regular visitor to USA is that there are huge numbers of hot American girls / women up to around 22 or so. It looks like Americans do the Middle Eastern way and deteriorate quickly but I'll tell you this: if you ever find yourself in a college town your jaw will drop.[/QUOTE]This post right here. Yep.
Tallahassee, FL, Athens, GA, Austin, TX, Tempe, AZ, Jackson, MS, Auburn, AL, Madison, WI, Raleigh, NC, Knoxville, TN. So many small towns with unbelievable talent.
City and Suburban Americans are also getting in on the fitness trend, which has been growing significantly in the past 10 years. If the results becomes significant, the tread life on these young girls may be extended past the currently embarrassing falling-off-a-cliff at around 25.
[QUOTE=McAdonis;2500631]For various reasons, I think the WGs are not getting a realistic sense of their true market value as independent escorts. They may find that customer demand evaporates as soon as FKK clubs reopen (or not). Or they may see that customer demand increases if / when a vaccine becomes available.[/QUOTE]I wonder how many FKK girls who've starting doing this are building a stable of sugar daddies as pseudo-relationships must be developing, especially during a time of little social interaction.
[QUOTE=Pessimist;2500688]If they meet clients at 150 an hour, they will not make the same amount they do in the clubs. They will have too much time that is not billable. In the club the turnaround time between sessions can be a few minutes.[/QUOTE]For most WGs, I believe you are correct, or at least I hope you are correct. Two of the more popular Sharks WGs (Helen, Melissa) are currently working as independents. So we can monitor the situation, and see if they return. Or perhaps they return to FKK, but only a less full time basis.
Some WGs base their sales strategy on catching whales. Maybe even 5-15 percent of their income comes from say 5-10 mongers, so if she can replicate the same approach as an independent and catch more whales, that could increase her billable time. We also must consider that these WGs are opening up themselves to a larger base of customers that might never set foot in a FKK. That might be a professor at TU Darmstadt. Or perhaps a high-level employee who is married and easily recognizable (Merck is HQed in Darmstadt).
Another way WGs can reduce downtime is to overbook. She can schedule two one-hour appointments for 20:00, and take whichever monger arrives first. There is probably a 50 percent chance that the monger who arrives second will wait around, sitting in his car or at a nearby coffee shop until he is ready to be seen. Double-booking (or scheduling overlapping appointments) can also insulate them from no-show appointments. Overbooking may not be a good strategy for long-term earnings, but lets be honest, some of these WGs only care about short-term earnings. They can always change their stage name, mobile number, and online photos. And only the hardcore mongers who spend all their time on review boards will be any the wiser. But in such a way she can minimize the downtime between each customer.
Overcharging is just as applicable in the independent escort setting. A WG can quote a monger 150 EUR with BBBJ and DFK included, and then charge each as extras once he arrives. At that point, the monger is already invested and committed and less likely to abort the booking. Same for bait-and-switch using fake or old photos. In the FKK setting, bait-and-switch and overcharging are less effective. The FKK customer knows that he can walk away and move onto his second or third choice. I have walked out of rooms (before any action took place), paid zero EUR, and found another target in under 30 minutes. In the independent setting, the monger's confidence to walk away and still be able to fuck on the same day is much lower. He may need to get back to the wife and kids. His second or third choice might be the other side of town. And so such a monger might bite the bullet and proceed with the booking even if he encounters a bait-and-switch or a WG with dishonest pricing.
At the present time, the 150460 WGs only have to compete against other 150460 WGs. The real test will be when FKKs are reintroduced into the equation and they have to compete against 50430 or 100460 WGs. That said, we still do not know what state the clubs will be in once they return. Will contact-tracing, travel-restrictions and fear of contracting the virus dissuade customers from attending? Will the government force the clubs to operate at 50 percent customer capacity? If fewer customers, then FKK becomes a less attractive venue for WGs to ply their trade. In such a scenario, these newly independent WGs might return to FKK believing that they will match their pre-CV19 earnings, and if that doesn't materialize, bounce back to independent.
[QUOTE=Mongerer88;2500701]Inflation in the commercial sex industry occurs in sudden shocks.
Europe doesn't seem to have experienced as much price inflation during this decade, although the greater availability of half-hour sessions, and the lower starting price in general, can disguise the inflation in terms of total spending.[/QUOTE]The low-cost option of Backpage kept prices down in USA. In a similar manner, the availability of Romanians kept prices low in Europe. How much longer that will hold, remains to be seen.
Not all products and services increase and decrease at the same rate of inflation. Housing prices in major cities have outpaced inflation. In the USA, cost of health care and university have outpaced inflation. However, airfare between 1978 and 2011 (inflation adjusted) decreased significantly.
[QUOTE]Airfares have fallen by about 50 percent since 1978 and, even after you include the recent uptick in fees, the per-mile cost of flying has also been chopped in half.
Why did deregulation create such dramatically falling prices? "Flying is neither a life necessity like tuition, milk, or medicine, nor is it addictive, like alcohol or drugs," said John Heimlich, vice president and chief economist at Airlines for America. "When you have intense competition for a product that is price sensitive, you have falling prices."
https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2013/02/how-airline-ticket-prices-fell-50-in-30-years-and-why-nobody-noticed/273506/..[/QUOTE]Just going to re-echo some points that past mongers have made. While 50 EUR for 30 minute price point still exists, what you get now is not equivalent to what you got ten years ago. You may only get 15-20 minutes. BBBJ and DFK may or may not be included anymore. And some would say the optics are not as good as they used to be.
When discussing us hardcore mongers, I fully agree with the above assessment. The German FKK threads are mostly tourists who have a strong preference for young, European WGs, so we do not reflect the overall market. But casual mongers, don't seem to be so obsessed with looks. They will take whichever WG is in their immediate vicinity. I once saw a black WG in her early 30's who was pushing 100 kg. This was at Acapulco Velbert where the rooms have showers. She simply never returned the key. A succession of 5-6 men came one after another, each doing 20-30 minute sessions (so I assume these were regulars who scheduled via Whatsapp and paid her inside the room). They all looked extremely happy when they exited the room, and off-topic but two or three of her customers were well-groomed in shape, tall, good-looking men between say mid-20's and early 40's.
[QUOTE=Mongerer88;2500895]Excellent points. I do think, however, that workers in most personal service activities have experienced wage inflation that exceeds CPI, so maybe that is a valid comparison?
I guess my concern is that the Seeking Arrangement system will always knock out the potential benefit of the lowest-cost provider.
In fairness to the USA Government, one of the stated reasons for going after the low-end of the USA Scene, namely Backpage, was that it was fueling the drug, especially the opioid, crisis, in rural America.
Seeking Arrangement has really tried hard to keep the riff-raff out, especially by promoting in its videos that its ladies get very large monthly allowances for things like college tuition. I suspect they are going to keep working really hard to keep the low-cost druggie girls out.
The obvious win-win is the low-priced immigrant girl who isn't a druggie, but who could really use a supplement to her regular wages, sending some back to Mexico and Asia. I have been kind of surprised that we haven't seen more reports of this. Perhaps there simply aren't as many immigrants coming into the USA For low-paying regular jobs? A long time ago when escort agencies were more prevalent, I would meet ladies who saw one customer an evening but said they valued their day job because it provided excellent health insurance. Did Obamacare change this dynamic? We are on our own with this type of economic analysis.
I just know that prices of escorts have gone up, and I rarely read SA reports of great transactional deals. I read great reports of sessions with wonderful-sounding ladies, but the overall cost is still high. Maybe it is like everything else in the USA Maybe the middle class sex worker simply went away. You have a higher-class lady who charges and makes a fortune. Often more than her customers. And a large underclass of low-priced but low-class providers we all want to avoid.[/QUOTE]CPI is a weighted average and depends on weights and what is averaged. It is obviously impossible for every good and service to be included in the bucket.
I am not even sure if CPI necessarily applies to blended wages in the economy. Directionally they would be roughly in alignment but wages tend to rise a bit late in cycle when employment is close to full and #hrs worked is also at highs. Ironically in this pandemic there was a persistent complaint from some employers that they were not able to find workers for some jobs as many were getting nice fat checks to sit at home and collect stimulus and unemployment checks. This is one example of a shock to the supply.
But overall, I just think pay for play is probably only modestly aligned with CPI trends. Perhaps over the long term they may come out at the same place as you pointed out M88. I just have not done enough work or know enough about prostitution prices over a long enough time in various location to make this comparison.
Is there really any link between drug / opioid and prostitution? I suspect that may be a storyline pushed by whoever was behind shutting it down. I am not even aware that prostitutes are substance abusers in a larger percent compared to?? And I fail to understand how shutting down backpage will in anyway solve their opioid / substance abuse problem. Is the thinking that if you starve the beast so to speak, I. E. Cut off their revenue lines, they will kick the habit? I don't believe that is a valid or proven solution. If the crackdown was indeed driven by that motive, it seems to be misinformed and misguided to me.
As far as SA is concerned, the site has very rudimentary checks. Yes, if a girl appears to be an obvious drugged up zombie, they will bar her. But since they don't meet the girl, anyone can pose as a girl seeking a guy, it is well nigh impossible for SA to truly sift through such people. It is truly up to the guy to weed out girls like that. In my view, SA is just a meeting platform and not a whole lot more. So, there are some semi pros and pros on the site for sure, but also a lot of non pros. Many more of the latter. And tbh, a large percent of the non pros may not even be OK with the sex. I know you read SA thread somewhat regularly so you know all those issues.
The reason I think platforms like SA will win out is very simple. SA is very much like the bar at the street corner. Guys go to hit upon girls and if possible to get laid. But in today's age, a lot of girls don't mind if they also get a gift or some money. Perhaps 50 years ago, a non pro girl might have been offended if a guy gave any help (gift was probably OK but any offer of money might have been refused haughtily). Now, there may still be many such girls, but it is also true that a sizable number of girls are A OK if they have sex with a guy they are somewhat attracted to, like being with, and also receive some help. In their mind, that is not prostitution because they rationalize it as "I still choose who to have sex with and what I will do and not do". SA provides a place for such girls (plus the usual pros and semi pros) with guys who are the mirror images of the girls with regards to help and sex. And those meetings are hardly illegal and they are discreet, one to one, and there are too many of them. Government may kill SA but the genie is out of the bottle and other platforms will replace them with the same business model of hooking up those two groups.
[QUOTE=TheCane;2500913]And your dick will rise! I love American university girls.[/QUOTE]Those type of stunners can be still found in German FKK, after about, few hours of waiting and searching LOL! Or you might get lucky and bump into her upon your walk into the main bar when she began her shift, in mongering world, we call that kinda moment destiny or fate, which last as long as you want for 50 euro per 30 min LOL!
[QUOTE=Mongerer88;2500899]The objection I have to some of your analysis is that it focuses only on John getting quality sex at the lowest possible price.
There are many players in the transaction. Wouldn't the analysis cover the economic prosperity and happiness of the sex workers, also? You rarely seem to analyze that.
The USA System has provided some significant benefits to USA Independent escorts, who earn a very high rate per hour.
The prices are so high that many customers are unable to access the providers they want to see. That is certainly troublesome.
Germany makes a real effort to have lower prices in its FKKs. The other part of the analysis is whether it's importation of labor and the ladies needing to work shifts away from their homes is the best system for the sex workers.[/QUOTE]So stunner level beauty prostitute do exist in USA with relatively easy access if you pay?