Rants and WTF are you talking about and Coronavirus!

[QUOTE=Gino02;2497368]More and more I seriously think that unless countries follow the successful Swedish experiment, these lockdowns are going to be part of life.[/QUOTE]No one is advocating for "lockdowns," except as a temporary measure in extreme situations. What is advocated is masks, social distancing, testing, and limitations on crowds while we explore effective treatments and vaccines. Also Sweden is not a success.

[URL]https://time.com/5899432/sweden-coronovirus-disaster/[/URL]

You can repeat lies over and over if you like. This is Trump's MO, and admittedly it's an effective strategy to use with poorly educated people. No one will stop you, but all should know that repeating untruths over and over will never turn them into truths.

[URL]https://www.logicallyfallacious.com/logicalfallacies/Argument-by-Repetition[/URL]

[QUOTE=McAdonis;2497588]It is too early to declare the Swedish experiment a success or failure..[/QUOTE]I wonder how or who will ever judge whether this experiment is a success or failure.

Every country is different in so many ways. Geography, demographics, pop density, economic conditions, health infrastructure, government spending on healthcare, on and on.

If outcomes are different, how does any one attribute the end result to one specific thing such as the action the government / country took with regards to lockdown, and not other things which make Sweden different from others?

ANd what is success / failure? Economic? Health outcomes? Would that be deaths, absolute # deaths, death / populations, deaths / infection, something else? What about # infected and their long term health conditions? Those will not be known for a long time.

And who makes this judgement and proclaim like Moses on the mountain "behold, I declare Sweden a success / failure" -- this thing is so fucking political. Whatever anyone says, it will be disputed by the other half.

In the end, Sweden is just one more country, a country with half the population of Florida, that is taking up too much of the globe's attention. So, they chose some plan. Good for them. I think they will end up somewhere in the middle, neither the best nor the worst on many of the measurement axis, and nothing will be conclusively proven.

[QUOTE=Pessimist;2497707]And who makes this judgement and proclaim like Moses on the mountain "behold, I declare Sweden a success / failure" -- this thing is so fucking political. Whatever anyone says, it will be disputed by the other half.[/QUOTE]It's only political, in the US that is, because a petulant, childish sociopath is running for a second term as president. He decided to ignore his own CDC and all contagious disease specialists at his disposal and hire a wholly unqualified herd immunity quack (radiologist) because he felt such an outlook better suited his re-election prospects. And, sadly, there is an abundance of bigoted, poorly educated folks in the US that believe anything he and his preferred media sources tell them. It hasn't been particularly political in Asia because people tended to just follow science and reasonable government protocols, and all often to good ends. As to Sweden, follow the evidence. Yes argument is inevitable. Unreasonable people always yell the loudest and fight to the bitter end. They are a sure bet for the last word in an internet discussion. But all arguments aren't created equally. Comparing Sweden to their Nordic neighbors is especially embarrassing, but there's much more.

[URL]https://time.com/5899432/sweden-coronovirus-disaster/[/URL]

[QUOTE=Sirioja;2497687]What do you know about France? We have so many muslims in France and I think most are very happy to live in France, rather than in their own origin. But yes, we are in war against terrorism, integrism, we can't let these barbares cut a 70 yo woman throat or another woman killed kicked many times with a knife today in a Christian church. These guys are not men, just terrorists, at 18 or 21 yo.[/QUOTE]I mean maybe not in your opinion, but in my opinion I think cutting other people's head off in church is quite a big sign of unhappy immigrant, man French people must respect other people's religion more instead of making fun of their religion with cartoon, this is ture, France declared religious warfare by insulting Muslim people is what happened. Plus France lost the control again with covid 19 as well, very busy country with many chaos.

[QUOTE=Gino02;2497607]I wrote this in the Artemis thread, but it really belongs to this thread. So here you go again, with slight modifications:

More and more I seriously think that unless countries follow the successful Swedish experiment (which is kinda a like a successful medical lab experiment, in a smaller size of population compared to most countries), these lockdowns are going to be part of life. Choices are very simple, (1) learn to live with the virus and strengthen your immunity by antibody and T-cells like Sweden did (sadly losing a lot of weak people as part of that, but quickly achieving a low death rate of less than 0.3 deaths per million population which is steady for 3 months now, whereas death rates are creeping up in all countries who had imposed some sort of lockdowns since the beginning of this virus), or (2) have repeated lockdowns like this. The longer we delay to implement (1), more deaths and economic issues will pile up and we will have total deaths more than compared to the proverbial "biting the bullet" in the first time. Let's hope vaccines and treatments will actually work, but who knows when and to what extent (reminds me of the state of vaccines and treatments for AIDS, SERS, MERS etc. Viruses)? Vaccines are a mild variation of (1) anyway, right?[/QUOTE]Europeans are too selfish to follow lock down procedure or wear masks, which resulted in many death! It is not in their culture and nature to be disciplined, so Swedish method can be considered!

If letting half French population getting infected, when nobody is sure about immunity after, some were infected twice, then French doctors plan for about 400000 deaths, when we have around 40000 which is already too many, when Sweden and Stockholm have one of the highest rate, when they kill many old people, when 85% of our dead in France are over 70 yo, when NL prefer to confine now for this second wave when they didn t for first. So, confine in Bavaria, again in France and they should extend to at least 6 weeks for us. Job was more complicated about safety since mid March and will be more and more complicated. Wish can ski for Christmas, when climbed for 5 months and wish for last one tomorrow.

It is too late, the numbers and demography are making all the differences (France has the biggest Muslim population in Europe) it is impossible to solve that problem, it is not to say that all the Muslim are criminals far from that, but al the terrorists today in France are Muslim, for decades Christian, Jude, Hindu, Orthodox never beheaded somebody in France. How many terror attacks in Hungary, Poland, Slovenia. Why? Several years back I decided to sell all my assets in France and to move to a country where the life is like decades back in France, now also here the real-estate is skyrocketing because many French, Italian, Belgium, Dutch, German want also to live here. One of the highest ranking French police officer just bought a house not far from me, I asked him why, he laughed at me and answered for the same reasons than you.

[QUOTE=Paulie97;2497698]No one is advocating for "lockdowns," except as a temporary measure in extreme situations. What is advocated is masks, social distancing, testing, and limitations on crowds while we explore effective treatments and vaccines. Also Sweden is not a success.

[URL]https://time.com/5899432/sweden-coronovirus-disaster/[/URL]

You can repeat lies over and over if you like. This is Trump's MO, and admittedly it's an effective strategy to use with poorly educated people. No one will stop you, but all should know that repeating untruths over and over will never turn them into truths.

[URL]https://www.logicallyfallacious.com/logicalfallacies/Argument-by-Repetition[/URL][/QUOTE]100% Bullshit talk.

[QUOTE=Paulie97;2497642]It's ironic getting lectured here by Shoo Bree, a Swede whose country sacrificed the lives of 5000+ of it's citizens, 11 times the per capita death rate as it's neighbor Norway, in a fool's errand chasing herd immunity. And yes, the Fox News pundits want to talk about NYC while they completely ignore the exemplary job New Yorkers did breaking the curve, and did so using the very public health measures that Fox and the Trump cult claim do not work.

And the politicizing of course has been done by the wannabe dictator Trump, his corrupt inner circle and his followers as they've downplayed the Covid situation in an attempt to stay in power. The result has been the lose of untold 1000's of lives.

Americans go vote. This is not one to sit out.[/QUOTE]5000 didn't die because of the virus, 5000 who died did test positive for the COVID-19. That's a huge difference, Sweden would have had a lot less deaths if they counted the same way as other countries.

It's a little bit comical how afraid you're of a virus that has no effect on normal people.

Thank you for the laughs, so you're actually praising New York, the Corona Capital of the World. Thanks for the laugh, I'm glad that we in Sweden handled this so much better. New York really has a lot to learn from Sweden and our handling of the Coronavirus. I'm glad that we are doing so much better than the states governed by the Democrats.

No masks, no lockdowns and we're not even close to being the worst affected country. That's a great success. The World should follow our great strategy, instead of doing crazy experiments.

Americans should go vote, vote against the irresponsible and failed Democrats.

[QUOTE=Pessimist;2497649]Actually I have voted GOP 80% of my life but based on the "intelligence" you displayed here, you must fit in the dominant demographic that votes for Trump.[/QUOTE]I'll take that as a compliment coming from someone like you.

[QUOTE=Paulie97;2497698]No one is advocating for "lockdowns," except as a temporary measure in extreme situations. What is advocated is masks, social distancing, testing, and limitations on crowds while we explore effective treatments and vaccines. Also Sweden is not a success.

[URL]https://time.com/5899432/sweden-coronovirus-disaster/[/URL]

You can repeat lies over and over if you like. This is Trump's MO, and admittedly it's an effective strategy to use with poorly educated people. No one will stop you, but all should know that repeating untruths over and over will never turn them into truths.

[URL]https://www.logicallyfallacious.com/logicalfallacies/Argument-by-Repetition[/URL][/QUOTE]It's hilarious how CNN and the Democrats have manipulated you so easily thanks to your fear, weakness and poor education. You should change your username to Fredo.

Sweden is a lot better off than most other countries in Europe when considering the current trends.

Let's just admit it, the lockdowns failed.

Mongerer88: it's emigrate (leave) rather than immigrate. As a matter of fact, I am thinking of that, joining Peter Theil (PayPal) and Steve Wozniak (co-founder of Apple), one of the founders of Google and several Wall St billionaires who have chosen New Zealand as home, getting a passport and buying housing. The list is long. I'm in good company. And have a look as USD currency pairs while you are at it. Furthermore, the UK and US are a covid disaster. That's just fact. And why we travel the world as pussy hounds is because US women are not up to snuff.

Some rough facts Mursenary queried:

USA: 924 k beds for a population of 328 million, so one bed for every 354 people, and 36.3 m annual admissions. Hospitals hit 100% theoretic capacity at 0. 002817073% of the population getting sick and needing to be hospitalized. Not all beds are the same. ICU beds are much shorter supply, about 80 k beds.

I plucked this from [URL]https://www.aha.org/statistics/fast-facts-us-hospitals[/URL].

Some definitions seem wonky, - the ratios do not make sense. From the looks of it, an admission to a US hospitals costs $30.6 k on average. Median is unknown.

A more detailed report is here:

[URL]https://www.healthsystemtracker.org/chart-collection/how-prepared-is-the-us-to-respond-to-covid-19-relative-to-other-countries/[/URL]#item-hospital-beds-per-1000-population-total-and-by-curative-care-and-rehabilitative-beds-2016.

Putting the usual labels aside, we did phuck it up. Let's start fixing it. Starting with slowing new cases (duh !)

[QUOTE=Mursenary;2497451]Ah yes, you basically listed states that were / are the main ports of entry for Europeans back in February and March and before social mitigation and appropriate standards of care were developed. What has happened since the summer as these republican states reopened? Oh yes, states you mentioned controlled the spread with less cases, deaths, and hospitalizations per capita than just about every red southern state (where I happen to live and work). Believe me, the only thing that saved my region despite the stupidity here is the fact that the international community has little to no desire to come here. Meanwhile Texas, Florida, Georgia, Arizona, Dakotas, etc have been leading the covid charge for the past 5 months. You have been listening to one too many autocratic orange monkey.[/QUOTE]It's funny how you Democrats always have an excuse and never a solution.

The worst affected states are still the blue ones, come back when that has changed.

The point is that the Democrats failed to make it better than the red states.

[QUOTE=PahllusMaximus;2497802]USA: 924 k beds for a population of 328 million, so one bed for every 354 people, and 36.3 m annual admissions. Hospitals hit 100% theoretic capacity at 0. 002817073% of the population getting sick and needing to be hospitalized. Not all beds are the same. ICU beds are much shorter supply, about 80 k beds.

Some definitions seem wonky, - the ratios do not make sense. From the looks of it, an admission to a US hospitals costs $30.6 k on average. Median is unknown.[/QUOTE]You probably meant 0.28%. Point remains, not a lot of space considering many of those beds are designated for speciality services such as obstetrics and pediatrics. Then you still have to staff those units with physicians, nurses, and ancillary staff needed to care for these patients (Hospitals never retain enough staff to operate at 100% capacity.) There was a reason why, back in June, my hospital needed to construct an auxiliary field hospital in the parking lot staffed by the National Guard and temporary, contract physicians and nurses. My ICU (a major metropolitan hospital) is already over normal census with mostly non-covid patients. As covid hospitalizations rise and flu season sets in, there's a strong possibility that we're screwed if people continue to refuse to take precautions. Let's see what happens when families congregate during American Thanksgiving and then Christmas.

[QUOTE=SobeLizard;2497788]100% Bullshit talk.[/QUOTE]That's a very sophisticated comeback. How was the Trump rally?