Kyiv

[QUOTE=FuckedUpSwede;2270237]I am 45 years old and reasonably fit. I created a profile on Mamba. I put in a phrase in English telling that I am a businessman travelling in Europe that want some intellectual, and maybe, physically stimuli when travelling thru Kiev.[/QUOTE]If you are just passing through Kyiv, then you probably need to go after girls / women who have consciously accepted that they are escorts for rent on an hourly basis. That is, unless the girl makes it clear in her mamba profile that she's at least a semi-pro escort, don't bother. Then grind your way through a bunch of these escorts to find those with whom there is mutual attraction, then become a repeat customer.

How to find escorts? RTFF, last two years at least. Basically, consensus is there are 4 options: strip clubs, kievescort. Club, hidden agencies, true independents (from mamba and elsewhere). KEC is expensive but probably best choice for beginners who are short on time, unless you're the type who wants to see, talk to and touch girls first, in which case strip clubs best. If using hidden agencies, then you should strive to be a repeat and well-behaved customer of the agency, which is something I neglected to do back when I was using them, which is another reason I was not as successful with them as PhotoSlider. (he's definitely right about my lack of resilience / tolerance in the face of failure. My desire for sex is weak at this point, so it doesn't take much to make me throw in the towel and do something else instead.).

[QUOTE=Riina;2270253]As a foreigner making contact outside the country, you're automatically categorized under the junk pile.[/QUOTE]Yes. OP sounds like a lot of guys (including me) who want something more like a mistress (paid girlfriend) than just sex only. It's conceivable to turn a regular girlfriend into a mistress, or equivalently, use wealth to make yourself more attractive to civilian girls as a boyfriend. However, for many reasons, including being categorized as junky foreign sex tourist initially, I think it's easier to go the other way, and take an escort hired initially for one hour, and convert her into a mistress (paid long-term girlfriend with whom there is some emotional connection). That's what I did. By starting with a true independent, there is no problem of getting the agency or strip club out of the way, and the hourly rate stays the same, so no need to renegotiate.

I listen and I learn from you more veteran mongers. Maybe I just go to Kiev to check it out, there is a club I want to visit there anyway "Closer" and that is for non mongering reasons, I just love trance music.

I can "pass thru" quite often since I travel a lot in Europe in business and no one will care if I go thru Kiev or Frankfurt or whatever.

What irritates me is that I targeted quite old women and this particular one claimed she was sitting at home alone on new years eve because there is no men in Ukraine.

I mean, if a reasonable looking female approached me on mamba and asked me if I could show her Stockholm and she would pay a fancy restaurant I would go for it just for fun. And I am not poor sitting alone in a 25 sqm flat. I partied my brains out in Seville on new year feeling a bit sorry for her! "I not have shoes" give me a fucking brake.

[QUOTE=FuckedUpSwede;2270564] What irritates me is that I targeted quite old women and this particular one claimed she was sitting at home alone on new years eve because there is no men in Ukraine.
[/QUOTE]Above sentence comes across as "condescending", meaning you see yourself as having a lot more to offer than this woman, and therefore you are doing her a big favor by contacting her. Nobody likes being in the inferior position like that, and women especially hate the feeling of lacking sexual power over men, and that how she probably felt. You were not that excited by her, and she could sense that, so she acted defensively.

As an aside, lots of guys categorize women on a scale of 1-10. I use 3 categories myself: (A) does not attract me sexually; (B) attracts me, but I would hate to be stuck with her for several years; (C) attracts me enough that I would be willing to see her frequently for at least several years. Category (B) I now try to avoid, because it means I am going after a woman I really don't think that highly of, either for looks or personality, and she will detect that and resent it, guaranteeing a bad experience. Much better to keep going until I find a woman from category (C).

It's well known that online dating is mainly used by civilian women for attention. That is, civilian women mostly create profiles to see how many likes and messages they can get, so as to boost their ego, with no intention of ever meeting anyone. I fooled around with civilian online dating in Ukraine long ago and found out to be a big waste of time. By contrast, escorts (or their agencies) create online profiles to get real business. If they are sometimes abrupt, it's because they are defending against timewasters, meaning guys who contact sex workers for the excitement of talking to a live woman about sex, but then go off and masturbate without ever paying them anything.

[QUOTE=FuckedUpSwede;2270564]I listen and I learn from you more veteran mongers. Maybe I just go to Kiev to check it out, there is a club I want to visit there anyway "Closer" and that is for non mongering reasons, I just love trance music.

I can "pass thru" quite often since I travel a lot in Europe in business and no one will care if I go thru Kiev or Frankfurt or whatever.

What irritates me is that I targeted quite old women and this particular one claimed she was sitting at home alone on new years eve because there is no men in Ukraine.

I mean, if a reasonable looking female approached me on mamba and asked me if I could show her Stockholm and she would pay a fancy restaurant I would go for it just for fun. And I am not poor sitting alone in a 25 sqm flat. I partied my brains out in Seville on new year feeling a bit sorry for her! "I not have shoes" give me a fucking brake.[/QUOTE]Couple things you can change to get more success in Kiev:

The first one GDreams explained the best. Be concise, and do not give too much information, go straight to the point: "I am in Kiev right now. Would like to meet" No need to explain your age. The initial objective is simple. Get her phone number, and arrange for a meeting.

The second one Kozerog described in sufficient detail. Kiev ladies want respect and money. They can feel even a smallest hint of you lacking self-confidence, and you thinking badly of them. That is why many foreign visitors come to Kiev, expecting local females with no income swarming and begging to get fucked, and instead those visitors are ignored.

This is precisely why Riina found his gold mine of Ukrainian students in Chicago. He treats them nicely, and not just money-wise.

Going further away from the subject at hand, I never ask for a call girl's personal phone number when we are just starting in my apartment for the first time ever. I want her to feel that she is special. And to my taste, many of them indeed deserve to be thought of as special ones. Then my chances at great love making improve significantly, and if the lady is pleased, especially if she has orgasm, she may give me her phone number upon departure, and as Kozerog said, I may eventually turn her into my LT GF.

Have one for almost 5 years now, and I meet her every time I am in Kiev. The very first time we went for a date, because her friend, a masseuse at Relax couldn't go out with me, and I treated that masseuse very well during massage instead of demanding to be pleased by lowly creature that is beneath me.

Another GF is with me 3+ years after initial encounter at Rio. Could have written a movie script about our first and second act.

Another one 2+ years. She herself is a different masseuse from Relax. Keeps writing to me, because she needs attention, and she likes our conversations. I do too. Highly intelligent lady. I like meeting with her in person even better, as words can not describe her skills!

Do I worship every Ukrainian girl that I meet? Certainly not. Still, if she passes the initial screening, I prefer to think that she is a good person, who I want to be with. This attitude helps me to open up better side of them. Maybe 20-30% do not live up to my expectations and fail the actual screening in bed. Well, you can't always get what you want. The World is far from being perfect. But more than 50% of those that I like, give me their phone number. A third of them later decide not to respond, that is easy to give away the phone number, and not respond. Another third respond, and never meet. And another third meet, and just like Kozerog explained, I retain them as LT GFs. This transition is difficult to execute in a short 3-5 days visit. I had it done, but it's difficult. Kiev girls want at least a resemblance of courtship.

As far as Kiev girls being afraid to be seen with us drooling mongers, yes, I had experienced that too. And some of them after learning that I am a decent human being, treating them with dignity and even sufficient well measured admiration they forget those precautions, and go out to Avalon and other equally public places. I do not go to Clubs at all though.

Best of luck to all who is continuing field research on the ground, and separate thanks to those who share and submit honest reports.

I just love the brutal honesty of you guys!

My meaning is really not to be "condescending" and when you display it this way I understand why I failed. I also failed to see thru the structure of online dating. I have done psychological tests and it turned out that I am extremely logical but have a hard time understanding emotions. Maybe that is the explanation. I will try to work the other way and only contact women that really attract me and are obvious semi pros. I just think it would be unnecessarily expensive, and a waste of their time, to have a walk around town with me and have dinner. I do not hire a surgeon to help me fix my car. Even if the surgeon could do it. I do not see my mechanic as a lesser being because I do not hire him to do a vasectomy. I did not intend to have sex with this women. I did nothing to even hint that. I cannot understand why she see that as a threat but I listen and learn from people who understands this game better than me. I understand machines, I am a mechanical engineer.

Is it normal to pay the same fee for a walk around town as for sex? I ask because I have had this argument when I was driving a cab (I did when I was studying). I got a call to two women standing beside a car with a flat tire. They wanted to go quite a distance to their home, approx 50 euro, I asked what the problem was. They replied that they did not know how to change tire. I said I could change the tire for 50 euro instead of driving them home. They got perplexed and asked "are you allowed to do this, you are a taxi driver" I said "my boss do not care shit as long as he gets a fair share to pay for the time of this taxi standing still and I do not really care what kind of work I am doing as long as it pays me at least the same as driving this cab" the agreed, I changed tire in approx 10 min for 50 euro and everyone was happy.

I also once let a really fat ugly old lady suck my dick while driving the cab to her destination. I got 50 Euro tip and was happy with this. I did do the mistake to tell my former wife about this incident (we was not married when the incident took place, I was single). She did not see this the way I did, as a funny incident that gave me some extra cash. She hit me with a load of disgust.

[QUOTE=Kozerog;2270649]As an aside, lots of guys categorize women on a scale of 1-10. I use 3 categories myself: (A) does not attract me sexually; (B) attracts me, but I would hate to be stuck with her for several years; (C) attracts me enough that I would be willing to see her frequently for at least several years. Category (B) I now try to avoid, because it means I am going after a woman I really don't think that highly of, either for looks or personality, and she will detect that and resent it, guaranteeing a bad experience. Much better to keep going until I find a woman from category (C).[/QUOTE]Great concept! That is perhaps what I use subconsciously as well while casting the call girls in the cab or on a sidewalk.

There are those that I want badly (C), those that I will not have (A), and those that I do not mind having (B).

After we start interacting in my kitchen, and later on in the bedroom, (B) may magically transform into a (C) as I want her again and again.

Similarly (C) may get downgraded to (B), and very seldom even to an (A).

I do get an occasional misfire when the girl passes the initial screening. Due to the lowered guard (tired or drunk and desperately horny), I may ignore the first signs of her not being up to specs, and then get disappointed. Not really disappointed because I lost money, but mostly because I always try to not simply copulate and ejaculate, but make it work at a higher level, between two persons. Also because a couple hours of my precious time is lost. Picking 2-3 candidates via Viber, while making jokes with dispatcher, then 20-30-40 minutes for their cab ride to me, 60 minutes action at my place, and at least another 20 to restart the process.

Questionably, there exists also a fourth category (D). Those women that I wanted badly during the initial casting, that were good or even very good for the hour, except I am not interested in seeing them anymore. Most of the time it is either hygiene or their mental health related. Some of them try to control me, or try too hard to please, or are too submissive, or something else I can not explain. I may even have the fondest memory and no desire to see her again, period. It could also be the girl offering herself in the way that is too obvious, and I want to have an illusion of winning her over, impression that she is not as easy to get by anybody, and that I made the choice, even though ultimately the decision is hers. Also any attempt to establish monogamy or limit my freedom leads to rejection.

Well, enough self praise.

[QUOTE=PhotoSlider;2270664]Couple things you can change to get more success in Kiev:

The first one GDreams explained the best. Be concise, and do not give too much information, go straight to the point: "I am in Kiev right now. Would like to meet" No need to explain your age. The initial objective is simple. Get her phone number, and arrange for a meeting.

The second one Kozerog described in sufficient detail. Kiev ladies want respect and money. They can feel even a smallest hint of you lacking self-confidence, and you thinking badly of them. That is why many foreign visitors come to Kiev, expecting local females with no income swarming and begging to get fucked, and instead those visitors are ignored.

This is precisely why Riina found his gold mine of Ukrainian students in Chicago. He treats them nicely, and not just money-wise.

Going further away from the subject at hand, I never ask for a call girl's personal phone number when we are just starting in my apartment for the first time ever. I want her to feel that she is special. And to my taste, many of them indeed deserve to be thought of as special ones. Then my chances at great love making improve significantly, and if the lady is pleased, especially if she has orgasm, she may give me her phone number upon departure, and as Kozerog said, I may eventually turn her into my LT GF..[/QUOTE]Very good post, honest and sincere. We may disagree about a lot of things about Kiev, but I do appreciate this post. Good job.

[QUOTE=FuckedUpSwede;2270673]Is it normal to pay the same fee for a walk around town as for sex?[/QUOTE]This is actually one of the FAQs with Kiev Agencies. And their answer is simple:

- You pay for the time with the lady. What you do during that time, watch a movie at the cinema, have a dinner, make love, or walk around the city, is up to you.

Make no mistake, girls want to make money to pay for rent, food, manicure, summer shoes with high heels or warm winter boots, so that they continue to look great and make more money. Even semi-pro mindset is not that far from yours, while you were driving a cab at a certain rate per kilometer and a minute. In that respect you answered your own question.

There is obviously a price difference between walking hand in hand admiring Kiev architecture, and having anal sex. That is why pros and semi-pros want to know how many hours, how much, and what is expected.

She may go with you for a walk, if trust has been established in prior visits, but even beforehand it should make sense to her. As Kozerog stated, be a good repeat customer. If she sees in you reasonable potential, that has been realized in the past, she will continue, as long as there's nobody better. It's constant hunting for a better suitor.

Don't forget to wish your Ukrainian girlfriends Merry Christmas today!

[QUOTE=PhotoSlider;2270799]There is obviously a price difference between walking hand in hand admiring Kiev architecture, and having anal sex.[/QUOTE]I'm really glad to hear that!. Then I will try to solve another problem of mine in the process. The sort of club I want to visit in Kiev is often a bit picky. It is normally easier to get in if you are in company with a lady. I could pay her full price to enter the club with me for an hour, give her some drinks if she wants, and then she can choose to party on with me without payment and then follow me to my apartment and the meter starts ticking again at full rate. She can with this setup potentially go and meet with another monger while I party and then meet me at my apartment. Probably she will choose this and that do not bother me since this kind of clubbing experience is quite a solo thing for me anyway. Win win or am I to logical again and will be rejected?

[QUOTE=FuckedUpSwede;2271064]I'm really glad to hear that!. Then I will try to solve another problem of mine in the process. The sort of club I want to visit in Kiev is often a bit picky. It is normally easier to get in if you are in company with a lady. I could pay her full price to enter the club with me for an hour, give her some drinks if she wants, and then she can choose to party on with me without payment and then follow me to my apartment and the meter starts ticking again at full rate. She can with this setup potentially go and meet with another monger while I party and then meet me at my apartment. Probably she will choose this and that do not bother me since this kind of clubbing experience is quite a solo thing for me anyway. Win win or am I to logical again and will be rejected?[/QUOTE]If you try to explain the whole arrangement to your lady beforehand, she will find it too complicated and may reject.

She can agree to the offer of escorting you to the club (without sex) for an hour, and I would not prepay.

I would also state that if there is chemistry between the two of you, you can extend later on, but do not go into particular details.

If she doesn't find any alternative inside the club, and she thinks you are "palatable" she herself will ask you to extend before the hour expires. That's when you can suggest to hang out at the club together for a bit, and pay for an hour at your place, again, assuming you do not find anybody better yourself. At this point she will either say "Fuck it!" and disappear in an unknown direction to continue her hunting, or she will say:

- Fuck this club, let's go to your place right away, as you are so handsome, and since my high school teenage years I had a dream of making passionate love to a Swedish boy!

That's where you need to decide to stay at the Club or go for extra-curriculum activity.

Forgive my saying all the obvious things. I assume this is how you wanted to approach it yourself in the first place.

Kiev modus operandi is go-with-the-flow. For me, it is next to impossible to calculate the night before how my next day will play out. I may have a reliable GF lined up, and at the last moment she will say "Sorry, darling, I can't tonight". Or deliberately have nobody planned at all, and around 6-7 pm, with one lady already on the way, the other one would be demanding to meet right now, because later she has other plans, leaving no room for negotiation. And that's the beauty of it in Kiev.

This September I was chasing Ukrainian girls in the most promiscuous manner, and as great as it was, I certainly admire what one of distinguished Forum members showed me when we met in Kiev. He was calm, relaxed, confident and content. He screened the girls one after another, and kept only one per day. I switched to his approach, except not much screening was required due to already established base, and both of us sharing contacts. Some of the days I've been wondering if tonight I would be alone, and "alas", it never happened.

[QUOTE=Rog123;2270961]Don't forget to wish your Ukrainian girlfriends Merry Christmas today![/QUOTE]Too late. The correct date for Christmas wishes is the 6th of January. After 6 pm.

It is the traditional time. Then all families sit together and eat 12 dishes. Including "Kutia". A buckwheat meal.

[QUOTE=PhotoSlider;2271171]- Fuck this club, let's go to your place right away, as you are so handsome, and since my high school teenage years I had a dream of making passionate love to a Swedish boy!

That's where you need to decide to stay at the Club or go for extra-curriculum activity.[/QUOTE]I must say your posts are very amusing to read.

Yes I see this as a most realistic scenario, not that I am that handsome but working girls are very good at selling their product. In which case I plan to rent an apartment within walking distance.

The reason for my interest in Kiev was originally that I need to go to Tel-Aviv in the beginning of April and the transit thru Kiev is convenient. Then I thought. What the heck, I have not seen Kiev so why not stay a day or two in the transit. Now I may go there just for pleasure before that!

[QUOTE=FuckedUpSwede;2271381] Now I may go there just for pleasure before that![/QUOTE]I recommend calling the girls at Gia as to not waste time. However, Kiev is about short term financial relationships. So work on that if you stick around.

[QUOTE=Riina;2271423]I recommend calling the girls at Gia as to not waste time. However, Kiev is about short term financial relationships. So work on that if you stick around.[/QUOTE]For 2 days visit, - totally! Former GIA, or Kiev escort club, as it is known now, might be a better fit. There is some level of reliability with KEC girls. Short term visit typically means you pay more, unless there are verified contacts available from previous visits.