Kyiv

[QUOTE=KingmaxXx;2274276]Could you tell me where is the "other destinations and hook up with actual real models"?[/QUOTE]Moscow and parts of Mexico, but this takes time and money. You can read some of my old posts.

I actually like RIO, but for the price sorry, no way. The quality of girls is just not that great anymore, there was s time, but not now. Time you pay travel expenses you are way over $400-500, just not worth it hook up with a 5 or 6.

The last 2 times I went with my old girlfriend she was 5'8", 105, Beautiful girl. She laughed at the quality of girls there. She, said, "I thought this is where the most beautiful girls in Kiev Work, then laughed. " Many others have also posted about Rio, and selection of girls, just average girls and way overpriced. As I recall also very difficult to get phone numbers there, but do not quote me on this one.

I did have a lot of good memories of the place, back in the day.

[QUOTE=VivalDim;2274049]Hello everyone,

Newcomer in Ukraine here, any recommendation for good club / parties? I'll have one week end of January. Thanks.[/QUOTE]Try this 3 part report, written by a newbie short time visitor to Kiev:

[URL]http://www.internationalsexguide.nl/forum/showthread.php?816-Kiev&p=2123282&viewfull=1#post2123282[/URL]

IMHO it is a perfect example of properly set expectations and a good prep work, leading to a successful implementation by a happy guy, who in the end was sorry to leave Kiev.

[QUOTE=VivalDim;2274049]Hello everyone,

Newcomer in Ukraine here, any recommendation for good club / parties? I'll have one week end of January. Thanks.[/QUOTE]Trance Club "Closer" in Podol has been mentioned here as a gay bar where straight individuals are tolerated.

One of the girls promised to take me to "Heaven" downtown, but we got distracted, or perhaps she decided against being seen with me by her friends.

Arena-City has number of clubs, including strip and regular club house music. Didn't impress me, just like all those Dlux, Shooters, Caribbean and so on. Kontramarka. Ua, parter. Ua and other websites have calendar of events.

Karaoke bars are everywhere throughout downtown, but you would need a local to show you a good one.

Maybe hire a girl guide from [URL]showaround.com[/URL]. She will not provide sex, but some of the guides know where to party, being it techno house music, trance, gay, BDSM, or whatever you like. Those show around guide girls live in Kiev, and charge anywhere from free to 5-10-24 USD an hour. For 5-10 bucks you can have a good female wingwoman, if agreed in advance. I hired twice just to keep me company for conversation, as at the time I couldn't have sex)). One lost control after few drinks, and started telling stories how she was slapping asses of her tourist guests at BDSM bar. She looked great, but in the end was too full of herself. The other guide was very classy, - intelligent, beautiful, conscientious. Very nice young lady.

I like "Avalon". It has multiple venues: Live Music on the main floor, Karaoke, Roof Terrace with great music, but it is not a party place, and not exactly for pick up. More of a relax with your own girl. Very good DJs, food, and eye candy.

Maybe try tripadvisor or even google maps? Not sure how much they can be trusted.

Many places are good at separating you from your money.

[URL]http://www.internationalsexguide.nl/...=1[/URL]#post2123282.

IMHO it is a perfect example of properly set expectations and a good prep work, leading to a successful implementation by a happy guy, who in the end was sorry to leave Kiev.

Going back one year, to prove a point. , I love how my posts are proved indirectly The reason people do not post after the trip is for the following reasons:

1. Quality of girls and over-inflated prices.

2. Too many S. Tourists.

3. Zero Night Life.

4. Fake Profiles.

5. Too man scams.

6. Embarrassed.

In my opinion that people do not post is because individuals are happy and they do not want to spread the work is insane and delusional. I am happy to post about my good experiences in other countries.

Homework only help a little because of all the Fake Profiles, now you can referrals from other members, but that can be hit or miss, because I believe most that like Kiev have a very low standards, and love the pain that goes along with messing with Ukraine Women and there games. Not all, but a large percentage.

Arena-City has number of clubs, including strip and regular club house music. Didn't impress me, just like all those Dlux, Shooters, Caribbean.

All these are dead and a big waste of money, time and resources. Stick with meeting girls on the street or agency, but be prepared it is just not that good.

I have a question for the guys who have been to Ukraine and know the works: those agencies like Ukrainian Brides etc, do they work for getting non pros? I mean, apart from getting a husband they might be looking for less definite agreements. Or is it just a scam? Thanks for the help.

Any recent experience?

[QUOTE=Fifino68;2274939]I have a question for the guys who have been to Ukraine and know the works: those agencies like Ukrainian Brides etc, do they work for getting non pros? I mean, apart from getting a husband they might be looking for less definite agreements. Or is it just a scam? Thanks for the help.[/QUOTE]A good amount of those ladies on bride sites are paid to chat with foreigners trying to scam them.

Stay frosty.

[QUOTE=AntonySun1996;2275069]A good amount of those ladies on bride sites are paid to chat with foreigners trying to scam them.

Stay frosty.[/QUOTE]Very true. 5-10 years ago, probably not. Now common practice. Many of these girls make there living off this. They get a cut from the agency, restaurant, and bars. They also say they live far away and ask for a crazy about for there taxi fare. I have written about this a lot in the past, very good questions.

One of my good friends was the manager for one of these site and my ex-girlfriend also ran a site. Big scam stay away from these site.

[QUOTE=Fifino68;2274939]I have a question for the guys who have been to Ukraine and know the works: those agencies like Ukrainian Brides etc, do they work for getting non pros? I mean, apart from getting a husband they might be looking for less definite agreements. Or is it just a scam? Thanks for the help.[/QUOTE]Some advice for guys looking for LTRs:

1. Minimize intermediaries, other than those that involve minimal cost (free or cheap online dating apps) or where intermediary truly wants you to succeed and be happy (your own grandmother as matchmaker, for examine). Marriage agencies are worse than useless. Quality Ukrainian women have no need to use marriage agencies to find boyfriends / husbands, so women at these agencies are either junk women (bad looking and / or bad personalities) or scammers (or maybe professional working girls if you're lucky).

2. Many working girls, especially those over age 25 or so, would prefer to have one or a small number of quality sponsors versus a parade of one-time clients. Escorts who want to become mistresses are perfect for foreign men seeking LTRs. Much better, IMO, than leftover women (women over age 25 who never worked as an escort but also never got married, either due to personality problems or not physically attractive). Single mothers another possibility, but quality civilian single mothers tend to go very slowly and foreign men are often short on time. Single mothers also often develop strongly independent and self-sufficient personality. Good character qualities in a business associate, not so good in a lover.

3. Marriage is obsolete. If a woman wants children, she can have them as a single mother and get child support. Be aware that Ukraine is a signatory to the Hague convention on child support, with all that entails. Only reason for marrying a Ukrainian woman is to get residency in Ukraine. Be careful about marrying if you have wealth that a wife would inherit upon your death. Income but no wealth is much safer. Consider annuitizing wealth, so as to convert into stream of income that stops upon your death, so that no one (besides insurance company) has incentive to see you die prematurely.

4.Never take a Ukrainian woman out of Ukraine permanently (short trips are fine). Men need to move to Ukraine if they want to ongoing access to the woman's body.

5. Treat all women as working girls. If a woman is not at least semi-pro when you meet her, try to convert her to semi-pro by being explicit about quantity of money or equivalent (gifts, vacations, restaurant meals, etc) given per sex act. If she reacts negatively, good riddance, because she'll just be trouble eventually. Ukrainian women seek out foreign men primarily for money, never forget that. If all a woman wants is sex or companionship, plenty of local men for that. When a Ukrainian woman seeks a foreign man but rejects explicit exchange of his money for her body, something is amiss. Either she is planning a scam or she is a fool of some sort. Scammer by far preferable, since nothing more dangerous than an unpredictable fool. Explicit exchange of man's money for woman's body should continue as long as relationship continues. Even if you are feeling generous and want to give a surprise gift, wait until immediately after sex, then present the gift. Relentlessly condition her to expect money and gifts in exchange for sex, and only in exchange for sex.

6. Never give money or equivalents (gifts, vacations, restaurant meals, etc) without first receiving sex. Don't ask for free samples of a woman's body, don't give free samples of your money and what it can buy. Trivial payment for coffee at first meeting is okay. You can also pay round-trip transportation and compensation for time if a woman meets for coffee, made no misrepresentations in her online profile, and otherwise behaves honestly. At first visit to your apartment, counted money should remain on the table until after sex, in case of last minute change of mind.

7. To minimize problems with last minute change of mind, engage in some sort of intimate touching at coffee meeting. For example, ask woman to put her arm on the table. Then put your hand on her wrist and let it relax, so she feels the full weight and warmth, then just keep it there without saying anything for several minutes. When she pulls away, tell her she can leave now, but you want to stay and finish your coffee. If she asks what went wrong, then interrogate her calmly but persistently as to why she pulled away: "You don't like me touching you? But you pulled away, there must be a reason. You don't know the reason? Why did you put your arm on the table when I initially asked you to do so?" If she rebels in any way during the interrogation, good riddance, she'll just be trouble later. Otherwise, ask her to put her arm back on the table, put your hand back on her wrist, wait silently again for several minute, then invite her to your apartment.

8. Inability to put her smartphone away during the coffee meeting should be a deal killer. Unlike with the hand on her wrist compliance test, no reason to give second chances where smartphone etiquette is concerned. Save your money and give it to a more deserving girl.

9. Don't promise anything you cannot deliver on. Fulfill all promises, including promised threats. In general, under promise and over deliver.

10. Don't expect monogamy from Ukrainian women, especially if you are much older than her, or much less handsome than she is beautiful.

[QUOTE=Kozerog;2275175]Single mothers another possibility, but quality civilian single mothers tend to go very slowly and foreign men are often short on time. Single mothers also often develop strongly independent and self-sufficient personality.[/QUOTE]At least 3 single Ukrainian mothers I met were quick on the draw, and driving hard towards marriage, trying to shape up my thoughts. All three were Semi-Pro. One pretended she got pregnant with my child. Another one was too controlling. In general single ladies are much more fun, they have significantly less psychological trauma.

The fourth one was indeed very self-sufficient, a true Goddess in bed, and indeed independent in our relationship. I prize encounters with her very highly, but Kozerog is correct. Difficult relationship.

[QUOTE]Consider annuitizing wealth, so as to convert into stream of income that stops upon your death, so that no one (besides insurance company) has incentive to see you die prematurely.[/QUOTE]There was a story here about the Ukrainian girl that married an UK guy, arranged for a lethal traffic accident (he was a pedestrian, smashed by the truck by her accomplice), and took possession of his wealth, with his relatives trying in vain to resist via legal means. There were no action taken against her in Ukraine, most likely a collusion with Ukrainian criminal system.

I believe Fifino68 asks for having a good time with Ukrainian girls, not to marry them. Regardless, bride agencies are scam.

[QUOTE]4.Never take a Ukrainian woman out of Ukraine permanently (short trips are fine).[/QUOTE]Minor corrections. Do not take Ukrainian woman out of Ukraine even for short trips, unless you know her well enough. Even then, she may have a change of mind, while you are at her mercy in non-mongering destination. Happened before. If that's the case during your trip, just put her on the plane, and cut your losses. That is also why KEC asks for 20-50% prepay. No effing way! You already are paying for the ticket and hotel.

More than once the mild threat of kicking the cold moody princess out, turned her into a hot seductress right away.

[QUOTE] Men need to move to Ukraine if they want to ongoing access to the woman's body.[/QUOTE]Plural. Women, not woman. Move to Ukraine, if you want to have an ongoing access to women bodies. But that's my preference. To each is own.

[QUOTE]6....Don't ask for free samples of a woman's body...[/QUOTE]Why not? For moral reasons?

I guess you are right again. There is no free lunch after all.

[QUOTE]7....Otherwise, ask her to put her arm back on the table, put your hand back on her wrist, wait silently again for several minute, then invite her to your apartment.[/QUOTE]That is what I do indirectly during my casting. With hourly girls it is trickier, and I have to rely on their smiles, body language, intonation and perceived willingness. But sometimes shy girls turn into hot ones in the bedroom.

With higher level agencies I do not pay right away, and if, before we go to bed, the girl doesn't respond to my kisses within the first 10-15 minutes, I explain that there is an exit door in my apartment.

Kozerog's approach is much better for casting the mamba-like girls before letting them into your apartment.

[QUOTE]8. Inability to put her smartphone away during the coffee meeting should be a deal killer. Unlike with the hand on her wrist compliance test, no reason to give second chances where smartphone etiquette is concerned. Save your money and give it to a more deserving girl.[/QUOTE]That's tough but true.

I go berserk when agency calls before my time runs out. However, few times it was rather cute. Taking the girl doggy style, and I know that our time is over, because agency already called, and I didn't extend, despite both of us enjoying each other big time. And, while waiting for the car to arrive, we decided to go for another round. So again, I am taking her doggy style, and she answers the phone, talking to dispatcher in a shaky stuttering voice:

- I am Rea. Dy!

- Is the car here?

- I am coming!

Those are the moments that I cherish.

Otherwise agree, no phone. My tablet is used for entertainment. Then again, asked one girl:

- Do you want any music?

- **I** am The Music!

And she was.

[QUOTE]10. Don't expect monogamy from Ukrainian women, especially if you are much older than her, or much less handsome than she is beautiful.[/QUOTE]Indeed! It is a hierarchical priority system. Girls run their own harem of milked males, their source of income. If a certain male is promising to be valuable, they may run a monogamy show just for him. But make no mistake. It is all about maximizing potential and real revenue, while multitasking.

Thanks guys for the replies and many thanks to Kotzerog for the detailed explanation.

[QUOTE=Kozerog;2275175]Some advice for guys looking for LTRs:.[/QUOTE]Thank you for the post, very useful, Just my opinion, it's so much better to have the mentality that all relationships with Ukrainians are financial. Love is great, but expect shattered dreams if that's your guide.

[QUOTE=PhotoSlider;2275208]In general single ladies are much more fun, they have significantly less psychological trauma.[/QUOTE]Sorry about mistake. I meant to say this:

- Ukrainian ladies are much more fun than single moms, because they experienced less abuse in their personal relationships.

Kozerog's Essay on LTR is great. Couple dozen more, and he has enough material to publish a solid book.