Kyiv

[QUOTE=TinyHippo;2275504]You definition of mongering must be much different than mine. Your tactics to me are a sure way to make a girl feel like a hooker. As an older man, you are supposed to be interesting and to be the commanding one (like deciding where to eat and where to go for fun). While I do pay for sex with girls, I have also dated a lot of Ukrainian / Slavic girls 100% not because of gifts or money. Some girls are after a free dinner or an iPhone, but there are plenty of girls looking for some fun or love with a foreigner.[/QUOTE]Not necessarily a foreigner. As long as you can provide fun, love, good sex and money- many Ukrainian girls do not care much where you are from.

Difference between local and foreigner is that foreigner will leave and most likely will not provide any of the above in sufficient quantity.

Admiration towards the foreigner may fade away quickly, unless the girl is bored and needs attention. Then ask yourself if you want to be her entertainer via one of messaging platforms.

If the relationship doesn't involve money, then what is the underlying reason?

She may go for it, if she is independent enough financially.

I have at least two LTRs which are not based on money. They did start with money, and then transformed into friendship with benefits. Occasionally one of these two semi-automatically tries to extort gifts and money, and the most I gave her in the last 8 weeks in Kiev was breakfast at Avalon and 200 UAH for her cab ride after having sex. She surely expected more. She wants to meet when I am in Kiev in May-June of this year.

[QUOTE=DramaFree11;2275862]Very good report, disagrees with the part about girls above 7's. Prices are correct, but accessibility is questionable especially for Newbies. You live there as I did, as did I and my friends did the same.

None of my friends had access to those type of girls either and this was 3 years ago, they just simply were not available, like 5 years ago. I can only imagine how bad it is now. Most of my friends had major game, time and big bankroll. They were able to pull 7's above in the past on the streets and clubs, but this is just not the case now. We all had apartments, gym memberships and access to VIP Clubs. I see more 8's and above in Moscow on a Friday then I would see in months in Kiev, sorry this is the truth.

5/6's all day long in Kiev, anything above that very difficult maybe even impossible without major local connections, job and the language, even then unlikely.[/QUOTE]Thanks for your comments; and I agree with you 100% . Being working in Kiev for a long time and speaking fluent Russian I have developed lots of reliable connections with local pimps and modeling agencies and this gives me full backdoor access to P4P database. It's just sad to see how the inventory of good looking girls with flexible services is melting down year after year. Best looking girls are running out of Kiev and Ukraine in general. And actually you're right.

About Moscow. I was there just few months ago and had a very good time. But the prices for hot chicks almost the same as in Europe starting: $300 . So if you're planning to visit Moscow again than check out.

Intimcity and russdosug. It's a bit cheaper option for mongers and locals. Also it's worth to visit few strip clubs: Aurora / Angels / Penthouse (same network) - it's much better than RIO but be prepare to spend $500 minimum.

Cheers.

[QUOTE=Sprusic2019;2275728]So be prepared to spend 100 $ - 150 $ for 6/7 looking girl 200-250 $ for 8/9 (if you get lucky) and $300+ for 10 (if you get any). Different guys have different taste and 10 for one guy could be 6 for another. But the bottom line is that in order to succeed you have to be very realistic in terms of prices.[/QUOTE]Most of Sprusic2019's report I agree with, but the above is misleading.

First, what is the point of an objective rating scale that is not objective? I use a subjective scale for my own process, precisely because ultimately what I like is what matters if the girl is intended for me, not what other guys like. But I understand the value of an objective scale so as to communicate with other men. However objective means just that. 10 means possible Playboy centerfold or similar. 6 means no way she'd be Playboy centerfold. No such thing as objectively 10 and 6 at the same time.

There's also the issue of unspecified nonlinearity in these rating scales. Some even say there are no 10's, that's just an ideal. Linear percentile scale is better because everyone knows that there are exactly 10% of 22 year old girls in the top 10%, etc.

Anyway, where did the fabled 10's of the 1990's come from originally? Some from Kyiv (Kiev back then), many more from small towns. Has the overall gene pool of Ukraine degenerated such that mothers no longer give birth to 10's in these small towns? Because otherwise, there will continue to be plenty of 10's (and 9's and 8's) migrating to Kyiv so as to market their beauty. They don't immediately go to Moscow or Paris the day they turn 18.

Probable preference order for girls who would even consider foreigners: 1) marriage to rich handsome local their own age, with mutual love; 2) marriage to handsome local their own age who has good enough income, with mutual love; 3) marriage to rich old local; 4) sponsored in Kyiv by rich locals or visiting foreigners; 5) moving to Moscow or Paris for sponsoring; 6) day job, with occasional semi-pro P4 P with face control (she chooses clients); 7) full-time P4 P at Kiev escort club and hidden agencies, without face control.

I didn't cover all possibilities and we can argue about preference ordering, but important conclusion is that when you go hard P4 P, meaning one-time meeting with no face control and no emotional connection, you are only getting access to a very small number of beautiful girls who are psychologically suited to such hard P4 P, and to rejects who couldn't get anything better. If you want better quality girls, you need to move up to long-term sponsor rather than one-time P4 P client.

If you arrange your sponsoring so it does not conflict with marriage to local non-rich guy, then you get access to even more girls. This would normally work as follows. You meet girl when she is going through her wild phase at university or shortly after, and establish sponsor arrangement where you meet her a few times a week in the afternoon at your apartment, but are never seen with her in public. Around age 25, she marries a local who isn't rich and continues seeing you on the side. She works some sort of commissioned sales job, which explains her big income and why she is frequently out of the office where she supposedly works. This is more or less what I proposed to my jewel, assuming she ever marries.

Some people underestimate wealth of local men, others like Sprusic2019 overestimate. There is not a huge pool of local men who have $1000/ month (28000 uah) extra disposable income to support a mistress. So if you can come up with that kind of money, you can compete with everyone except locals who are also offering marriage. I paid my jewel about $5000 last summer and might go up to $6000 this summer. $2000/ month is well above the going rate for sponsoring 8's and 9's (objectively, my jewel is 8 or 9), but if course I'm only paying for 3 months. $1000/ month for 10 meetings translates to $100/ meeting (2800 uah). So that's what the local rich are paying for their 8s and 9s, not $200+. Assuming meetings of 3 hours each (probably more than 3 hours of they go out to dinner), local sponsors are paying under 1000 uah / hour for 8s and 9s (I'm ignoring 10s to avid avoid a flame war regarding whether 10s even exist).

IF YOU WANT TOP QUALITY AT MODERATE PRICE, GO FOR LONG-TERM SPONSORING, NOT ONE-SHOT P4 P.

[QUOTE=Sprusic2019;2275728]So, I wouldn't bother to come to Kiev for 1 week without $2000 in my pocket just to be able to fully enjoy my trip.[/QUOTE]I wouldn't bother to come to Kyiv for 1 week regardless of bankroll. If you have a big bankroll, use it to buy more time off from work.

[QUOTE=Kozerog;2276241]First, what is the point of an objective rating scale that is not objective? I use a subjective scale for my own process, precisely because ultimately what I like is what matters if the girl is intended for me, not what other guys like. But I understand the value of an objective scale so as to communicate with other men. However objective means just that. 10 means possible Playboy centerfold or similar. 6 means no way she'd be Playboy centerfold. No such thing as objectively 10 and 6 at the same time.

There's also the issue of unspecified nonlinearity in these rating scales. Some even say there are no 10's, that's just an ideal. Linear percentile scale is better because everyone knows that there are exactly 10% of 22 year old girls in the top 10%, etc.

Anyway, where did the fabled 10's of the 1990's come from originally? Some from Kyiv (Kiev back then), many more from small towns. Has the overall gene pool of Ukraine degenerated such that mothers no longer give birth to 10's in these small towns? Because otherwise, there will continue to be plenty of 10's (and 9's and 8's) migrating to Kyiv so as to market their beauty. They don't immediately go to Moscow or Paris the day they turn 18.[/QUOTE]Mathematical statistics in the hands of businessman turns potential flame war into a civilized discussion.

I tried once to introduce the multidimensional assessment for the ladies I met. Did it strictly for myself, and got completely lost, arguing with no one else except myself. Certain metrics are rather subjective. But let's attempt for couple minutes, even though it's an exercise in futility.

Looks and Performance are two high-level umbrella-like over-encompassing criteria.

Looks are the most subjective. For example I liked 1 m46 cm folk dance girl just fine, because she was very flexible, kissed like a fairy, and seemed to have multiple orgasms in the most sincere manner. She was young, great skin, perfect smile, gorgeous eyes. And certainly not a playboy material, heck no! And I don't want her to be. She'd be dismissed as 3 or 4 by model seeking vigilantes.

I also like those 10-15 cm taller than me. Measured with or without the high heels, doesn't matter.

My friend likes size 5 boobs, I prefer no larger than 3. Beautiful nipples and areolas mean so much more to me.

Now comes even more subjective. Performance. Try rating kisses, separate from CBJ, BBBJ, DATY, Greek and so on. Jymondor did rate in the most respectful way. How can these be combined into a composite metric? Weight coefficients? 5 or even 7 dimensional surface with extremums?

The rest has been argued about here ad nauseam, and I agree that even while slightly drunk, it is difficult to have satisfying sex with an ugly girl. At the same time that beautifully looking 9 (that everybody on this Forum may have agreed, that she is 9 based on her naked pictures with boobs, surgically enhanced Brazilian bootie, and all), even when she looks perfect without clothes, has a potential to quickly turns into a harpy in bed. What is her rating then?

When I say some lady is incomparable, it is to share my recent state of happiness. It is not to get a confirmation, or approval, not to assert or elevate myself above others. This is not a competition. Not for me. And I am totally content while others dismiss my objects of passion and desire.

Statistical approach introduced by Kozerog, and certain gentlemen before him, is based on percentiles. Agree to forget 10's as never achievable ideal, and let's say that if 80% of male and female population considers a certain girl better than lower 80% of Ukrainian 22 years old, than she is at least 9.

Kozerog is 100% on, -new and most beautiful candidates are born and properly raised all over Ukraine every day. At the current birth rate 50 babies are born every hour. 25 girls. 2 of them are 9 or 10. That is 500 new girls every year that are 9 and above. Kiev is at least 3 million, that is about 5% of Ukrainian population, residing in the country. At least 25 new 9-10 girls every year. Seems rather low. Perhaps I miscalculated somewhere, didn't account for incoming students not born in Kiev. Also 3 million does not count daily commuters, 2007 estimated total for Kiev was 3. 7 millions with commuters. Could be 5 million today, not sure. There is at least half a million refugees from Crimea and East Ukraine, many coming to Kiev.

Now back to our 9+18-26 years old makes up 10% of Ukrainian population. 2018 data shows 53% of country population are females. In Kiev it is higher due to students, office and service industry workers, but we'll keep them at 50%.

My rough calculations show that 37 K of Kiev population are 18-26 years old females that are no less than 9 by Kiev standards. And to my tastes those standards are high enough to justify my annual travels. Let's say half of those girls, 20 K, leverage visa-free option to fuck in confines of Italian Hilton's and Dubai establishments.

How many have reliable sponsors and husbands? Local or foreign, doesn't matter anymore. 5 K? 10 K? I do see them checking into fitness and spa at Avalon. They are surely not interested in me, and my ego is not hurt. Because at least 7 K are available and actively hunting, it is visible while walking around, riding subway, going to theater.

Even without all the above calculations I see hundreds of 9+ every day, and many of them are approachable. No more than 9 out of 10 reject my advances. It is arguable that more beautiful girls reject quicker. There's an opinion that too many males are afraid to talk to them, and they crave for attention. Therefore it is not a surprise that I get phone numbers of more than a few new hot girls daily. With already established contacts it is more than enough for me.

I cannot do the same in New York, or Madrid, or Zurich, or London, because of my age and society being against it. I can in Kiev.

Kiev changes, so do we. Some of us get older, and lets be honest, many of us become less attractive. Consequently some loose faith in Ukrainian women and Kiev in general. Women easily sense it, and they want to be worshiped, to increase chances for more reliable transformation of our funds into their apartment rent payments, Michael Kors purses, and so on.

[QUOTE]I wouldn't bother to come to Kyiv for 1 week regardless of bankroll. If you have a big bankroll, use it to buy more time off from work.[/QUOTE]I am not yet at 90 days in Kiev every year, but 3 weeks seems like a minimum nowadays. 5 weeks shows distinct dividends. 8 weeks is a blessing, and made my life in Kev relaxed and happy.

Moving in permanently, with an easy way out, on as needed basis, is the ultimate objective, and not only because of classy ladies. As has been mentioned, business opportunities are still enormous.

1 week in Kiev is a substantial gamble for any newbie.

[QUOTE=DramaFree11;2275862]Very good report, disagrees with the part about girls above 7's. Prices are correct, but accessibility is questionable especially for Newbies. You live there as I did, as did I and my friends did the same.

None of my friends had access to those type of girls either and this was 3 years ago, they just simply were not available, like 5 years ago. I can only imagine how bad it is now. Most of my friends had major game, time and big bankroll. They were able to pull 7's above in the past on the streets and clubs, but this is just not the case now. We all had apartments, gym memberships and access to VIP Clubs. I see more 8's and above in Moscow on a Friday then I would see in months in Kiev, sorry this is the truth.

5/6's all day long in Kiev, anything above that very difficult maybe even impossible without major local connections, job and the language, even then unlikely.[/QUOTE]As usual, truth but not the whole truth in what DramaFree11 writes: only the gloomy side of the story. Two perfect 10's with whom I interacted in a professional basis in Kyiv in 2017:

One was an AirBnb hostess. She looked like a 10 in her AirBnb profile (not why I picked the apartment, but hard not to be fascinated by the photo), looked even better in person, plus very intelligent and friendly. Worked as a secretary with the Orthodox church. Always accompanied by her fiance, a tall, handsome, assertive and very intelligent graduate student at the university. They are probably married now, poor but happy. None of us here would ever have had a chance with this girl.

Another was a clerk at the Autolux ticket counter at Vydubychi station. She no doubt could sense my admiration for her beauty, though I tried to conceal my feelings, and appeared annoyed when she detected my foreign accent: "Another sex tourist, probably thinking why a beauty like me is working at such a menial job, hope he doesn't say that. " She answered me in fluent English and we performed the ticket transaction as fast as possible. She was wearing a wedding ring. Age maybe 30, but the type of lean, fine-featured beauty that ages very well, like Norwegians. I have no idea who she was married to. It would be horribly insulting to proposition such a woman with a sex for money offer.

I have no interest at this point in marriage, but if I did, no way to meet Ukrainian women like this in bars, nor marriage agencies, nor online. They are in high demand by local men and have many candidates lined up from high school, university, work, social circles, etc, assuming they ever find themselves single. Furthermore, they are very leery of damaging their image by being seen in public with foreign sex tourists.

10's (and 9's and 8's) going to Moscow, Paris, Dubai, etc is a minor phenomenon compared to competition from local men, plus the factor that foreigners are no longer seen as high status. On the contrary, being involved with older foreigner men is increasingly seen as shameful. Some guys don't see this because they live in the P4 P bubble, but I can definitely sense hardened attitudes among civilian girls since my first visit to Ukraine in 2015. (I interact frequently with civilian girls as part of my social activity.).

[QUOTE=Kozerog;2276387]10's (and 9's and 8's) going to Moscow, Paris, Dubai, etc is a minor phenomenon compared to competition from local men, plus the factor that foreigners are no longer seen as high status. On the contrary, being involved with older foreigner men is increasingly seen as shameful. Some guys don't see this because they live in the P4 P bubble.[/QUOTE]I did experience that type of prejudice. At least two very desirable ladies refused to be seen with me outside of my apartment. They were semi-pro indies, not hourly, and decided themselves who to meet with, and under what conditions. We did have wonderful sex more than once, but I am 25-30 years older, and one of them never changed her rules, even though she sends me greetings for each major holiday, and chats frequently enough while I am away from Kiev. The other one warmed up substantially, and we started to go out, maybe because I treated her as a human being, and helped significantly beyond money.

I am not quite sure if those Ukrainian girls, going abroad in the hope of more lucrative endeavors, are that much different from University students and office workers that never get out of country. There are hardened souls at all levels and in all walks of life, and I have met well seasoned travelers, that opened up and were totally wonderful. I would say over time international travelers tend to expect more money as a compensation for their time. But there are always fresh young college girls incoming from remote towns and villages.

[QUOTE]There's also the issue of unspecified nonlinearity in these rating scales. Some even say there are no 10's, that's just an ideal. Linear percentile scale is better because everyone knows that there are exactly 10% of 22 year old girls in the top 10%, etc..[/QUOTE]Thanks Kozerog. And I completely agree with you: The rating scale of girls should be purely subjective and for every man it's working differently. Recently I spoke with a pimp who manages few brothels near Arena complex and she'd mentioned to me that guys from Turkey and other Arabic countries are here favorite clients because they usually select girls that no one else even looks at. She says: "They prefer country style girls" - short bulky blonds with fat ass.

Sounds weird but it is what it is.

[QUOTE]Anyway, where did the fabled 10's of the 1990's come from originally? Some from Kyiv (Kiev back then), many more from small towns. Has the overall gene pool of Ukraine degenerated such that mothers no longer give birth to 10's in these small towns? Because otherwise, there will continue to be plenty of 10's (and 9's and 8's) migrating to Kyiv so as to market their beauty. They don't immediately go to Moscow or Paris the day they turn 18.[/QUOTE]1. Significant demographic impact:

Over 7 million people moved out of Ukraine since 19 XX and very few moved in. The separation of Cremea and Donbass contributed too. Lots of hot girls used to come from that regions.

Lot's of girls I've met over 10 years had moved to other countries (and many of them now have beautiful daughters) Very hot girls it's just too bad they're no longer around. The majority of girls I'm meeting these days are dreaming about moving out of Ukraine. They just don't believe in the bright future of this country. "I don't want my future children to be raised here. " or "There may be a bright future down the road, but I don't want to waste the rest of my life waiting for this "future" or "I'm selling my pussy so I can make good money and move out of here" - These are quotes I keep hearing from almost every girl I meet.

2. Economy:

After collapse of Soviet Union. The whole economical model had been heavily damaged by "democratic" reforms. Lots of people lost their jobs and those who still worked couldn't get their salaries for months, so lots of girls.

Entered P4 P market without any hesitation;- this just was the matter of survival for them and their families. Ukraine is still very poor country (probably the poorest in Europe) but you can't even compare to what is was back in 90 x tru early 20 x. So, as of now. The economy has rebuild to some sort of acceptable format and there are much better chances for the girls (specifically good-looking) of finding a decent job that keeps them on survival level + once in a wile they make some extra cash (semi-pros). But most of them do not post on mamba or go to night-clubs or deal with body-shop agencies. They just taking a straight tour to Paris or Milan or Dubai (this preferable due to "privacy" factor) or work with local pimps who sends them to "internal" clients. In any case. This category of ladies are normally best looking once but they're completely closed to "public".

3. Liberalization of Traveling:

Back in time. Kiev was the only comfortable and highly paying destination for the girls from all over Ukraine because It was very hard to cross borders to visit other places and getting EU visa was a nightmare for a single girl. Also, girls were not ready mentally for these moves. Mostly due to "soviet" style of thinking. "don't go far away from home" , "it's bad and dangerous out there" and so on. These days: getting EU visa is no longer required for Ukrainian citizens with bio-metric passports. So, for a girl from Vinnitsa or Kharkiv let's say. Why bother going to Kiev if she can fly directly to Dubai, Paris, London to double or triple her "salary" ? For the girls who don't speak any languages Moscow or St. Petersburg are a pretty good alternative to Kiev. Also, there is a "privacy" factor that's been very important for any working girl and the further she goes the more secure she feels about her privacy. 90% of girls you meet in Kiev are actually not from Kiev. They just follow basic rule of thumb: "don't f*ck where you live and don't live where you f*ck" and it's critical for P4 P business.

[QUOTE]They don't immediately go to Moscow or Paris the day they turn 18.[/QUOTE]You would be surprised but by the time they turn 18 - they've already developed a pretty good understanding of getting around the word. I had a business conference in Paris back in July and I've used few reliable local sources (I cannot post a link here but try to google "sex-fuctory") I've met 6 girls and only 1 girl was 21 the rest of them are teenagers. 1 girl was actually from Kiev we had a very good time chatting in Russian. And I've asked her to leave me her contact number so when I'm in Kiev we can meet again and I'd pay her same amount of cash. Well. It didn't work out. She did not leave me her contacts because the idea of meeting again in Kiev didn't attracted her at all. She lives.

And study in Kiev but making $$$ in Paris. Of cause not all of teenage girls go to Paris or Moscow as soon as they hit 18 . But many of them have parents in much better financial shape to help her out thru the college also.

In the present time there is much better possibility of finding a part-time job or a local dude with deep pockets than it used to be years ago. And obviously this category of "teenagers" is not available for P4 P.

[QUOTE]Probable preference order for girls who would even consider foreigners: 1) marriage to rich handsome local their own age, with mutual love; 2) marriage to handsome local their own age who has good enough income, with mutual love; 3) marriage to rich old local; 4) sponsored in Kyiv by rich locals or visiting foreigners; 5) moving to Moscow or Paris for sponsoring; 6) day job, with occasional semi-pro P4 P with face control (she chooses clients); 7) full-time P4 P at Kiev escort club and hidden agencies, without face control.
I didn't cover all possibilities and we can argue about preference ordering, but important conclusion is that when you go hard P4 P, meaning one-time meeting with no face control and no emotional connection, you are only getting access to a very small number of beautiful girls who are psychologically suited to such hard P4 P, and to rejects who couldn't get anything better. If you want better quality girls, you need to move up to long-term sponsor rather than one-time P4 P client.[/QUOTE]You're absolutely right on this. P4 P restricts from any type of relationships or emotional connections. But it all really depends on your personality and mood. Some guys are looking for relationship and obviously it's a long term game with some significant commitments;- But there are many guys out there (including myself) who don't really need any type of relationship (just f*ck as many cute girls as possible for a reasonable price). I've tried a "sponsorship" model a couple of times but it's just didn't work out for me. At the same time I know few guys who are not even looking for hookers because they prefer "sugar-daddy" type of relationship and they look very satisfied.

BTW: Girls also prefer long-term relationship as it makes them feel and act more relaxed and natural. They don't really like being working in brothels or strip-clubs or be "on-call" 24/7. There are a couple major issues here which I will cover in details in my following posts.

[QUOTE]10's (and 9's and 8's) going to Moscow, Paris, Dubai, etc is a minor phenomenon compared to competition from local men, plus the factor that foreigners are no longer seen as high status. On the contrary, being involved with older foreigner men is increasingly seen as shameful. Some guys don't see this because they live in the P4 P bubble, but I can definitely sense hardened attitudes among civilian girls since my first visit to Ukraine in 2015. (I interact frequently with civilian girls as part of my social activity.).[/QUOTE]This is very true. There are still many good looking women living and working in Kiev. And if you walk into our office building (I'm working in Parus "skyscraper" on Lesi boulevard) You'll be pleasantly surprised with a good number of professionally dressed hot looking ladies. But these are not available. I will not drill down into details here, but hopefully most of you understand what I'm talking about.

[QUOTE=PhotoSlider;2276331]Kozerog is 100% on, -new and most beautiful candidates are born and properly raised all over Ukraine every day. At the current birth rate 50 babies are born every hour. 25 girls. 2 of them are 9 or 10. That is 500 new girls every year that are 9 and above. Kiev is at least 3 million, that is about 5% of Ukrainian population, residing in the country. At least 25 new 9-10 girls every year.[/QUOTE]My bet is out of 25 only 1 or 2 will be available for P4P.

[QUOTE=PhotoSlider;2276401]I did experience that type of prejudice. At least two very desirable ladies refused to be seen with me outside of my apartment. They were semi-pro indies, not hourly, and decided themselves who to meet with, and under what conditions. We did have wonderful sex more than once, but I am 25-30 years older, and one of them never changed her rules, even though she sends me greetings for each major holiday, and chats frequently enough while I am away from Kiev. The other one warmed up substantially, and we started to go out, maybe because I treated her as a human being, and helped significantly beyond money.
[/QUOTE]I'd rather classify this as "privacy rules" . I'm not "foreigner" I was born in Russia and speak fluent Russian. Yet at the same time very few girls wanted to join me for "after sex" dinner or lunch or breakfast.

And there is a very simple reason behind this type of behavior. Locals call Kiev a "Big Village" which simply means that there is a good chance of bumping into someone you already know anywhere on the street or shopping mall or Buddha Bar or Avalon. In addition;- many girls may have jealous boyfriends or husbands or hidden admirers who may track every step she makes. So please keep this in mind when taking out your "sweetheart" outside of your hotel room or apartment.

Also in my experience. For P4P or even long-term engagements girls really don't care much if you are local or foreigner. As long as you treat her well and pay the right amount of cash. Few girls I know are only "working" with foreigners.

And there are a couple reasons for this. 1) It's a good opportunity for them to exercise foreign language (specifically English, French, Italian) so they can feel more comfortable touring other countries 2) They like "clients" (that's how they actually call sex-tourists) come and go. At the same time it's not easy to get rid of local patrons in case of excessive relationship or whatever. This may lead to some blackmailing, reputation damage and other negative things.

[QUOTE=Kozerog;2276387] On the contrary, being involved with older foreigner men is increasingly seen as shameful. Some guys don't see this because they live in the P4 P bubble, but I can definitely sense hardened attitudes among civilian girls since my first visit to Ukraine in 2015. (I interact frequently with civilian girls as part of my social activity.).[/QUOTE]Again, that's why it's best to understand relationships with Ukrainians as financial and frame it that way from the beginning. It's delusional to believe a Ukrainian girl would socially ruin herself to date an older foreigner for nothing.

In the states, if I want a girl half my age to go out in public with me, I have to give her access to things like a car and my home. Basically, I need to better her lifestyle. Cash alone is not enough. Too many dudes here can write a check.

Sorry if this is a dumb question but is kievescort dot club the real GIA site?

Also has anyone tried kievx?

[QUOTE=Sprusic2019;2276640]My bet is out of 25 only 1 or 2 will be available for P4P.[/QUOTE]P4 P is easier, but that is what Kozerog calls "staying in P4 P bubble". I don't like any type of restriction and want them from all the sources. Some Pros are good and convenient, Semi-pros and Civilians are equally sweet, I especially like the process of courtship and seduction)).

Perhaps the question is how many out of 25 would agree to give me their phone number? So far my experience shows 1 out of 10. Which is again 2 or 3 out of 25. Not sure if these two categories overlap or are independent.

And as I said, these numbers seems too low. You mentioned many hot looking girls in your workplace at Parus stroll around, and are not available.

Not available for P4 P? Not available for dating, because they work there? Because they target those few levels higher in the corporate hierarchy for upward mobility within society? Because they already are married, or dating, or have sugar-daddies? Not available to you personally? Available for a few days and 200-300 euros during their weekend trips out of country?

I actually prefer to sponsor ladies that work somewhere in the office, not those that are constantly hunting without any other means to support themselves. That is why I never invite Ukrainian ladies to join me outside of Kiev. That is why I am happier with civilians, or newbies in business, with first year students, rather than jaded travelers with Dubai, Rome and Istanbul in every picture on Instagram.

My interpretation of LTR is dynamic harem of multiple semi-pros and civilians, that gets updated sufficiently frequently, as ladies leave it eventually, or stop sleeping with me, but still expect gifts out of the goodness of my heart, and I do my best not to feed those hopes in vain.

[QUOTE=Sprusic2019]...there are much better chances for the girls (specifically good-looking) of finding a decent job that keeps them on survival level + once in a while they make some extra cash (semi-pros). But most of them do not post on mamba or go to night-clubs or deal with body-shop agencies. They just taking a straight tour to Paris or Milan or Dubai (this preferable due to "privacy" factor) or work with local pimps who sends them to "internal" clients. In any case this category of ladies are normally best looking ones but they're completely closed to "public".[/QUOTE]That is precisely what I am talking about. Lately I do see proliferation of Viber-based agencies, that do not have topmodals style websites, or any websites, period. Closed to public.

They work with referred clients, and ladies at those agencies are very good for a reasonable price, as there is low overhead. Girls themselves are calling the shots, and therefore are not exhausted by working round the clock. With these it is easy to cut the middleman dispatcher out, and sponsor directly. I typically pay no more than 1000 UAH an hour, often considerably less for true GFE. Funny how for those ladies I frequently get compliments myself:

- Your girls are always so beautiful!

I looked through my last few dozen girls in Kiev to see if there were any 9's or 10's among them simply based on looks, that is face and body. Again, admittedly, I am not that picky, but I did read papers on the subject of female beauty world wide in scientific journals with good reputation. There were statistical attempts in those serious papers to establish female beauty criteria based on samples from different races, and respective statistically representative feedback. It was in "Nature" or "Genetics" or "Scientific American".

Anyway, review of the ladies, that "had an honor" with your not so humble servant, shows significantly more than 20% equal to or greater than 9. Which means that subjectively, even despite my omnivorous inclination, I had enough substrate to satisfy my urge not only with ugly vultures, but with the hot beauties as well.

Actual number is between 20 and 40% depending on the size of sliding window chosen. Which correlates with my primary objectives:

1. To be happy and satisfied.

2. Not to overpay for illusive qualities and my own ambitions.

I am not specifically targeting 8's, 9's and 10's. Personality, creative nature, and attitude are much more important to me, but I certainly appreciate when physical beauty coincides with those factors, emphasizing the pleasure even more. And my adventures show that subjectively there are enough hotties to draw from.

One may ask what is the rating of the rest 60-80%. I do not believe I ever went under 6, even while completely drunk. Then again, do we rate them with or without makeup? Some left an impression of working on their eyelashes and face for hours, and I love the artistry, when it is combined with the character of properly behaving lady.

YMMV, gentlemen, and that's not a problem at all.

[QUOTE=Power550;2276794]Sorry if this is a dumb question but is kievescort dot club the real GIA site?[/QUOTE]Yes it is. There is no GIA anymore. KEC executed hostile take over in May-July 2018.

Sister site is escort dot vc.

[QUOTE]Also has anyone tried kievx?[/QUOTE]Waiting for feedback myself. Seems that oil magnates and Arab sheikhs do not visit our Forum for the time being.

Hello to all good people.

Writing a report after a long time because this was a new country for me and to provide some information to same minded people.

Firstly, this forum lacked the basic info for first timers to follows to getting laid with as much ease as possible. Now there are plentiful of options listed but mostly from either residents or frequent visitors. This is my perspective from a person travelling first time there on a very limited time period and a not a very easy budget.

I traveled last month on the 12th Dec. For 3 days with a day tour of Chernobyl also planned so I knew my options on ground will be severely restricted. Hence started with badoo from home which had lots and lots of options BUT language was a major issue. Didn't fix up with anyone.

Day 1 arrived to my apartment which I selected quite close to Arena, maybe 5 minutes walking. Excellent location for about 50-60 usd per day. There was a housekeeper always in the apartment but there was no restriction on guests.

Since I arrived in the afternoon and was quite tired as I had worked through the entire last night, thought will just relax. I had downloaded mamba which I Think is the app of choice apart from tinder there.

Got a lot of options from 100 us to 300 us for quite amazing looking women but didn't go for it.

Next day after the tour I fixed a date with a 26 yr old, blonde and a very good body. Quoted 100 us for a short time meet.

Met around 8 pm at the restaurant near the apartment. Well she was a bit diff from the pics as in a bit older. She was actually 30, had a kid but body was quite good. Asked money upfront. Overall it was a decent experience, BBBJ was OK. Despite a natural child birth had a beautiful pussy where I went to work for sometime. I think she liked my tongue work. Ha ha.

Well after the deed went to Arena which was a big disappointment. Went to a gentleman's club with the entrance from the street side, decent girls but not nude.

Day 2 I hooked with a 26 yr chubby girl from mamba. Now she was not a great looker but could speak decent English and she had the cups. Fantastic set of breasts. I bought wine for her and went to the apartment. Chatted for a while and the got comfortable. She won't give BBBJ so didn't force. She did like getting her pussy licked which even I enjoy and she actually got an orgasm. I was surprised when she gave a hurried BBBJ. Maybe to thank me. The best part was when she spat in between her tits and asked me to tit fuck her. Ohh that was great when her boobs just covered up my dick. The fuck was decent and I liked her on top with her breasts hanging on my face. Afterwards chatted a while and she left. Cost was 1200 UAH and definitely worth it. Tip 200. I think we spent a bit more than 2 hours together.

Went Harems club in the night. Huge place with decent girls. I liked it there.

Next day off to the desert.

I'm not good at long descriptions so please excuse.