The Morality of Prostitution

I agree in principle with the decriminalization of prostitution as in fact it should be interpreted as a simple contract between 2 individuals (sex for money and viceversa).

Honestly, I have an internal conflict regarding morality.
A law of a country not only determines what you can do and what you can't do. It also sends out a message on what is morally ok and what is not.
If the message sent is that prostitution is just like another job (like a supermarket cashier, for instance) then we would have to "morally" accept that eventually our daughter decides to be a prostitute and make 10 times more the money she would make as a cashier.

This is if we see only the economic side of it.
I think, however, that prostitution will hardly be a job that dignifies the person or that we would like to be a valid option for somebody we love.

I have always thought that a woman autonomously turns to prostitution as a last resort, when no other options are left to her. I believe also that reading at RN stories this is what she has been telling us (RN forgive me if I misinterpreted that)

We can all argue on the issue of decriminalization: it is an important and necessary issue especially in those country where women are exploited, taken away from their families and forced to be prostitutes (I am not talking about South America or Africa, I am talking about "civilized" Europe).
At the same time, though, we should not interpret a woman necessity to be a prostitute as talent.

Well, I hardly think I'd be aspiring to have my daughter work at McDonald's either, or cleaning toilets, or in any number of industries or jobs. I don't think someone gets particularly "dignified" by being a waitress per se, for example, in terms of the job itself somehow bestowing dignity, though I certainly know any number of people who have dignity while having that job, and I'd say the same thing about prostitutes, frankly -- I have met many who have great personal dignity. The idea that particular jobs bring dignity to people as opposed to people bringing dignity to their jobs is not something I'd accept as an absolute. Sure, there's some degree of cause and effect, but a job is degrading only if the person doing so sees it that way, and a job, any job, is degrading if the person doing it feels it to be so. (Heck, we've got professional athletes who feel "degraded" by less than maximum contract offers.)

I'd also make a clear distinction between something being morally "wrong" and being what I'd want someone to aspire to, as I think they're very different issues. There's a difference between branding something as somehow "evil" or destructive to society and saying it's a job you'd rather not be doing for whatever reason. Branding it as not moral means that all who are part of it, provider and client, are engaging in an immoral act. We can do the dance of moral mitigation, or the Catholic "there needs to be intent to sin in order for there to be sin" or any of that stuff, but decriminalizing an immoral act is essentially saying either that morality has nothing to do with law, or that society accepts that immoral activity is part of its structure. Personally, I believe absolutes of immorality are present only where there is clear harm to other people who have no choice in the equation. When people make clear, non-coerced choices to mutually engage in behavior that affects only them I don't see morality having much to do with the equation.

I also don't agree that the only way women turn to prostitution is as a last resort. Some do, many do, certainly, but last resort is a pretty wide brush to paint with. Some do it because they can make a lot of money, which is how people choose jobs in other scenarios, some do it because they like sex, like interacting with men, like feeling desired, like the hours, like having control over their own options, etc., etc.

Finally, while I agree with you that a woman being a prostitute doesn't necessarily indicate a talent, neither does it indicate the opposite. I know talented and untalented people in all fields, and by and large we judge other fields by those who do well in them, not badly. I've known sex workers with an immense degree of talent for the work, which means not only the sex but the entire experience. You can't tell me that the ability to not only put up with but repeatedly make happy a wide array of personality and psychological types and make them feel as though the money they've spent has been well worth it isn't a talent. If that were the case there'd be no such thing as talent in all kinds of sales or personal service fields from tailor to psychologist.

Joe...I've said it before, and I'll say it again. You are amazing! I really wish I had your talent for writing. And of course, I agree with everything you said wholeheartedly.

stranger99,

[i]I think, however, that prostitution will hardly be a job that dignifies the person or that we would like to be a valid option for somebody we love.[/i]

A few words about a prostitute's sense of "dignity". Your post, and many many others like it, cut through my heart like a knife. By saying that you would not want a loved one to become a sex worker, you are basically saying you wouldn't want your daughter to become one of THOSE TYPES of people. You wouldn't want her to be dirty, degraded, humiliated, ashamed... (And more importantly, you would not want the shame that it could cause YOU as her father). But what you are saying to me in particular...when *I* read it...is that you wouldn't want your daughter to be like ME. I AM one of those "types" of people. And the insinuation that you would not be able to respect your daughter if she became "someone like me" really hurts.

Dignity? Ever since I gave up sex work for a "real" job, I have lived below the poverty line. I no longer see my children for any real length of time thanks to long working hours, and when I do finally have time with them we can't afford to do something nice together. I can't socialise because of the lack of disposable cash. I can't answer my phone unless I can see who's calling or check my mail for fear of debt collectors. As others here already know, I was evicted from my last house and almost ended up homeless. If things keep going the way they are, it could happen again. I am utterly ASHAMED of the position I am in and of what my life has become.

When I was working in the industry, I held my head up high. My bills were paid, we had nice clothes, we went out with friends and my children never wanted for anything...including my time, because I worked short hours. I handed money to people on the streets who were worse off than me. I made donations to charity. What I am saying is that the actual mechanics of my job had NOTHING to do with my sense of dignity....the fact that I was making a good living and my family was happy was what made me feel proud. I would have felt the same way as a lawyer, a checkout chick or a cleaner. The only time I ever feel ashamed about what I did for a living, is when other people insinuate that I SHOULD be...like in your post. I feel embarrassed and upset that you would respect me less, simply because I was a sex worker.

Yes, I was in a terrible financial position when I first started in the sex industry...and yes it was what "forced" me to consider working. But it was NOT my only option. I could have gone bankrupt to escape the debts and then worked in MacDonalds...I could have arranged smaller repayments and worked two low-paying jobs until I caught up. I could have robbed people's houses if I wanted to!! I CHOSE to work in the industry because I wanted a quick-fix that would allow me to pay the bills off fast, and still leave me time with my young children. During the time that I worked, I studied and gained many different qualifications that I could use for a "real" job...but because of the longer working hours involved, I chose to stay in the industry instead. My children are more important to me than anything else.

There are many different "types" of women in the industry, and each has a different story to tell. Some are forced and coerced and hate themselves...some, like me, have never felt better about themselves than when they were working. Would you deny your daughter the right to use her body the way she pleases, and earn a decent income in an environment that she enjoys....just because of what OTHER people may think?

elaborating on a hypothesis of why human societies have sexually restrictive laws and conventions: because it's perhaps the most effective way for a ruler or ruling class to psychologically castate or spiritually subject the lower classes, so that there's no question whatsoever regarding who's the boss. traditionally, rulers themselves have been exempt from obeying the laws they use to control their "subjects", wielding their "divine right" to do whatever the fuck they please.

stranger99,

Sorry to babble on again, but I've got a question for you.

You said:

[i]If the message sent is that prostitution is just like another job (like a supermarket cashier, for instance)...[/i]

Obviously, I believe it IS "just another job". I went to work, did my job, got paid and went home again...just like anyone else. What I'd like you to explain, is why you believe it ISN'T. There a couple of reasons (that people usually give) that I would rather you didn't use though.

a) Anything to do with religion or percieved morality...
Please remember that not all of us believe in the same God or have the same value system of hold the same things "sacred".

b) Women shouldn't behave like that and/or sex with strangers is contrary to a woman's nature....
I may have to cut off your dangly bits with my big feminist knife...Don't even go there!! LOL

c) Most people wouldn't consider it "normal" and/or "normal" people wouldn't consider doing it...
Funeral home, mortuary, slaughterhouse. Could you work in this type of employment? I couldn't. "Normal" people don't want to hang around dead people or slit animals throats five days a week. It takes a certain sort of person with a certain sort of attitude and disposition. And yet, their jobs are considered a valid employment option.

I would honestly like to know why it is that people insist on seeing sex work as a "lifestyle" or some type of character flaw, rather than the legitimate form of income that it is. Would anyone else like to have a go at the question, as well as stranger99?

RN: First of all I am sorry if my statements did hurt you somehow. It was the last of my intentions.
I really do think good of you and, having had the opportunity to read your posts over the last few weeks, I really think you are a great person worth knowing and spending time with.

I think you are second guessing me when you say that I would not want my daughter to be a prostitute for the shame she would cause me as a father. This is absolutely false. I am her father not her "owner". If that was her choice I would respect it (not like it, but respect it) and, by the way, I do have a daughter.
I might want my daughter to be like you as a person (as I think you are very intelligent and with great personality), I simply would not like her to do your job.

You were asking me why.
Simply I would not like her to deal with people who see her as a "breathing" object. I would like for her a job where she could be appreciated for more than her body or loving skills.

I know, I know that it is not like that in all circumstances and that you can establish great relationships with the person you deal with but reading the posts of the majority of the people on this forum, this is what they are looking for and that's the way she would be seen. No matter she would not care, I would not like it, as a father.
I am sure you met great people while working. I am also sure you could have met them under different circumstances. It is your personality that made you build great relationships with people, the job happened just to create the opportunity.

I would like her to live her sexual life as freely as it can be, enjoying every aspect of it, without necessarily being her mean of support.

Answering also to Joe. I do not see prostitution as something "evil" (evil would be working for a Swiss bank or running a Nike factory in Malaysia) and also I did not say that being a prostitute is the number 1 in the most-undignified-job-on-earth list. For what that matters, working on an assembly line, cleaning toilets or at McDonalds are at the same level.
Depending if you work to live or live to work. The above jobs are probably in the first scenario.

I simply said that I would not like her "aspiring" to be a prostitute and no matter how politically correct everybody tries to be, I believe this is the way that all of us see it.

RN, you were mentioning in the past the problems of eventually having to tell somebody you care for about your former job. I guess this fear falls under the "c" in your list of possible answers that you didn't want me to use (and in fact I did not).
Also, what made you leave that job?

stranger99 -- first, i reacted to you saying "deciding" not "aspiring" and i see a clear difference between the two. i think it's understandable and laudable to say that what we aspire for our kids are jobs where their full capabilities are used and appreciated. that's exactly why i used the examples i did -- no one much cares about the full mental or emotional capabilities of a waitress or a cleaning person; they care about whether the meal gets served or the room cleaned. neither of those are the kinds of jobs a father wants their kid to ultimately aspire to having, but we'd understand if they took those jobs to make money to move toward something else. we all want our kids to reach the absolute top of their potential. and, again, in terms of the whole "evil" aspect, i wasn't at all saying you were labelling it such -- i was riffing on your comment about society framing things in terms of "morally" ok or not.

personally, i think the kind of stigmas and societal hangups that float around sex work manage to completely obscure the issues in the most fascinating ways. let's look at the issue of someone being a sexual surrogate, working in a controlled environment around helping people with sexual disorders. we don't consider sex surrogates to be prostitutes; they exist in a kind of moral limbo in the minds of most people, (hey, they're clearly "helping" people!) but the fact that their job means they get sexually involved with patients still manages to impart some queasiness for most. if we were to build a spectrum, i think it would be fair to say that we'd generally be happy to have our daughters be psychotherapists, professionals who would help these folks deal with their sexual problems on an intellectual basis, and we'd be happy enough to have our daughters be physical therapists, which can involve direct physical contact with patients. (we'd be happy enough, as well, to have our daughters be physical trainers or nutritionists, also things having to do with the body.) but how many people would be [b]as[/b] happy to have their daughters be sexual surrogates? somehow when the two things, sexual issues and physical contact, get mixed together the equation changes. and prostitution isn't viewed with the same degree of glow of healing that treating sexual dysfunction is, so it gets even less a good viewing.

rn, to take a shot at your question about why people see sex work as a lifestyle -- i think it's a historical legacy, as prositution has been pushed into a subculture arena, and many aspects of subculture, anywhere from drug use to being a goth to whatever, do revolve around lifestyle choices. a job is lifestyle neutral, and at this point, fairly or not, being a sex worker is simply not generally seen as a job in the way that other things are.

stranger99,

i completely understand you not wanting your daughter to do it...as both a parent and a daughter. it may surprise you to know, but even though i am an activist and openly proud of the choices i have made...at 28 years old i do not have the courage to tell my parents. why? because i think they would be hurt and afraid for me and worried that they did something "wrong"...and yes i think they may even be ashamed. even though i know they would love and respect me regardless, i don't think they would really want to know. that said, i would not have a problem with my own children working in the industry, so long it was their own personal choice to do so and they were doing it for the right reasons.

i also think you'll find that sex workers are often appreciated for a lot more than you realise. as a sex worker you develop amazing social skills...you need to be able to adapt to hundreds of personality types, cultural differences and attitudes. you learn to diffuse violent situations, before they reach actual violence. you become a sex therapist, confidante, marriage guidance counsellor...even a gp in cases where a client has an std and doesn't realise it. not to mention an actress. i know you will think this is a truly ridiculous sentiment, but i'll say it anyway...sex work can give you the same feeling of pride that any other "helping" profession does. it doesn't matter whether you had a quick "wham bam, thankyou ma'am" session against the wall, or made slow sensual love in a four-poster bed. the client says a heartfelt thankyou and leaves with a weight lifted off his shoulders and a smile on his face. i have told stories in the old forum before about getting men erect and bringing them to orgasm after they had told me they suffered from erectile problems, helping guys get over the death of a loved one or a bitter divorce...i have even sent men home with hints on how to improve their marriage, and had them call back into the brothel (without staying) to say thankyou!

sure, people don't see it as a "noble" profession...but it is a necessary one. there is also a lot more to it than just sex.

with regard to your questions, i do not tell people what i did because of the public perception of prostitutes and prostitution. people have pre-conceived notions of what a prostitute is in their heads, as a result of centuries of persecution by the media, the church and the laws. i am judged not by my character or my personality, but by the stereotypes of what a prostitute is. my word means nothing, my sexual health is somewhat dubious, my morals are questionable and i can't be trusted. it doesn't matter that i know these things are not true...years of conditioning has meant that i can't convince the public of that.

as for why i stopped...i have avoided this question with the words "a very personal reason" for a long time, but i may as well say it because people tend to be suspicious of a sex worker who advocates the work, but no longer participates. i got a "real" job, but originally continued working two days a week in the industry on my days off. i had every intention of keeping it that way.

then i got cervical cancer. i could not work because of surgery, etc, and by the time i had recovered (which was quite a few months) my hours and my workload at my real job had been increased and i simply didn't have time left to work two jobs. i have since worked a couple of times, and i intend on working in the very near future, but these days the political side of things has picked me up and swallowed me whole.

RN, as always, you're full of firsts -- not too many people would feel it necessary to apologize for [b]not[/b] working as a prostitute. :)

Since you note that you had surgery, let me simply say I'm happy for you that you have your kids, as I know such surgery can be psychologically very tough at such a young age.

LOL Joe...yeah well, I'm a backward kinda gal :)

And you're right. I'm very glad I had already had children...the whole experience was frightening enough without having to worry about future childbearing. Happily though, even though I do not want any more children, the "bits" that they removed are able to regenerate so there should be no problems if I ever changed my mind. And also...just 'coz I like saying it *grin*...I have passed each three monthly biopsy for the last 12 months, and have now been "downgraded" to six monthly tests. They said the first 12 months was the highest risk period...I am so glad to get through it!

By the way, little funny story of the day I got the surgery done...
My GP knew what my "other" job was, but the oncologist only new about my "real" job. After the surgery, he said "Take tomorrow off because you will be a bit sore in the tummy, but otherwise you are free to go back to work. The last thing you need after all this stress is a loss of income, right? Oh by the way...you can't have sex for eight weeks". LOL D'oh

So, RN, after reading things here and in the American women thread, I've got a question for you -- at what point in your existence did you cease having what one might call a "normal" life? Sure seems like you've managed not only more than your fair share or trauma but simply a great deal of living packed into a few years. Hope you're taking copious notes -- given your skill at communicating, there's a good book or ten waiting to come out sometime in the future...

And some clarification, please -- you noted in the "Women" thread that you've decided, thanks to listening to all the idiots here, myself included, that you'll need to tell future potential partners about your past. How are you going to make that work with the fact that you've not told your parents? (And, no, this is not some kind of prelude to broaching the issue of informing them, simply a logistical query.)

Hmmm ok, well firstly I left home at 15 (my own choice, no family problems or anything) and I am now 28. I was...without a doubt...the proverbial "rebel without a clue!" LOL I thought I was a big girl and I thought I was acting like a big girl, but unfortunately now that I look back on it, I was acting like an idiot. Before I became a stubborn, outspoken pain in the bum, I was a stubborn, risk-taking pain in the bum. I think I made every effort to try everything I was told not to (except drugs...funny that). Not a lot to say about it really...no good excuses except I was young and dumb. I think because I started out badly at such a young age...with men that is...I must have kind of just grown to expect it. And a lack of self respect is a dangerous thing.

And my parents?? Well, I am a simple country girl born of simple country folk...who moved hundreds of miles away from my parents at 15, supported myself and children for the better part of ten years, and now works in a sex worker agency. I figure they know.

They have never asked and I would never just come out and tell them...but if they asked me straight out I would. I really believe it would be no real shock to them. I have to say though...when my Mum reads things I have written in the local media or is told about the various conferences and conventions I have spoken at...she is proud as punch. She never felt the need to ask me WHY my entire life is now devoted to the decriminalisation of prostitution though!! They trust in my judgement and believe that I know what is right for me.

By the way...it's all happening! The Govt have promised draft legislation in 6 weeks...had a meeting today with the pollies...NOT looking good! But we are armed and ready to attack *grin*

Oh...and the book is something that will be happening real soon. Not about me, but a book all the same. :)

Hmm, I thought you seemed all too familiar -- are you sure you're 28 and in WA? Not trying to resurrect the trucker scenario again, but your life and approach sounds an awful lot like a sister I've got who's a year younger than I am. Took off at 17, went half-way across the country with some bad dudes (who'd just robbed several stores and then did the same to her a thousand miles from home) and the eventual translation from a stubborn risk-taking pain to an outspoken one after a long period of difficult life(only she did do the drugs as well.) Unaccountably poor self-image for someone who's brilliant and good-looking, though the self-image things seems to unaccountably run through my family. Funny part is that she actually [i]is[/i] now a nurse... Tell me, are you also psychologically a "stray collector"? My sister seems to constantly have stray people around who she's helping and involved with. Wait, that's your job, isn't it :)

And sorry, but I don't see any indication of a "simple country girl" in your posts -- I think you must have left the simple far behind, as you're clearly too well-read and reasoning to qualify at this point.

And, hey, you can always do more than one book :) I've got several I'll be working on during my long fall retreat to Thailand.

Stray collector?? LOL That describes me perfectly. My job, my circle of friends....AND my ex husband!! *grin*

And I would love to read your books sometime Joe...at the risk of sounding really corny, I deeply admire you. Not only are you articulate and compassionate and brilliant, but you are truly a gentleman.

Blush, well, thanks. Just goes to show what an amazingly distorting medium the internet can be, LOL! Maybe we can backchannel on the books, though since my trip aims to bring at least two of the ones I'm working on to completion, it'll be a while before those particular ones are out. Is that hotmail addy still valid?