Stupid Shit in Kyiv

[QUOTE=Jmsuttr;2670935]The reason I posted the link was as a contrast to those who focus exclusively on one individual, Trump or Biden or whoever, as being the primary or proximate cause of the current situation. Whether you agree with Ferguson isn't important. The point is to engage in a discussion that casts a net wide enough to hopefully capture all (or most) of the possibilities and probabilities.

There are "experts" with opinions (and that's all they are) all over the place. The ones I ignore are those who are overly dogmatic, think they've got it all figured out, and fail to acknowledge how much is uncertain and how much they don't know. IMO, experts, real or self-styled, will be debating and analyzing these issues for years.[/QUOTE]I agree that neither Biden nor Trump are the primary sources of this. The primary and the only source of this situation is Putin.

[QUOTE=DramaFree11;2670947]Everyone has over played there hands on this one and media is making everything even worse. Ukraine decided to take on a bully and is getting absolutely destroyed as result. Any deal is good deal at this point, nobody is coming to help them and if thought that was going to happen, maybe one of the biggest miscalculation of all time.

I do feel sorry for the people that could not leave, but I have very sympathy for Ukraine government, they are completely delusional, but this should not be surprise.[/QUOTE]I would love to know when exactly did "Ukraine decide to take on a bully".

When they decided to join the EU?

When they kicked out their monstrously corrupt president?

When they "dared" to express their displeasure with Russia annexing two of their regions?

Do you have any other events in mind?

What do you believe the Ukraine government should've done and when?

[QUOTE=Xpartan;2671052]I would love to know when exactly did "Ukraine decide to take on a bully".[/QUOTE]2013-2014. EU will eventually be same thing as NATO. If corruption was the issue, why elect Yanukovych in the first place? Why wait until 2013 and the rejection of the EU agreement to revolt? Why not revolt in 2011 or 2012? Why change language laws the very first day the new government was in office, instead of first focusing on corruption and changing language laws later? Why re-arm, which forces Russia to invade soon or face a more difficult invasion later?

Lots of countries live next door to dangerous bullies. Mexico lost half its territory to the USA in 1848, then was forced to sell another slice to accommodate the railroad, then had to put up with USA meddling during the Mexican revolution. Mexicans had the sense to recognize that USA would simply seize their entire country if they resisted, so they didn't resist.

[QUOTE=Kozerog;2670988]My regular, who is the Ukrainian I know best, argued with me when I said last year[/QUOTE]Show levels of understanding, intelligence and reflection far higher than that of XPartan and the other Stupid Shit trolls. It is a pity their debar us getting insights.

Your girl friends are fully right from their points of view and from the view of very many others.

[QUOTE=Jojosun;2670896]Interesting video, US Military Veteran on the war in Ukraine. [URL]https://video.foxnews.com/v/6299099588001/[/URL]#sp=show-clips.

The decorated combat veteran says the USA Should stay out of the conflict in Ukraine, adding it will create a far more severe humanitarian.[/QUOTE]There was nothing in my post about the United States entering the conflict. I was discussing the tactics the Ukraines should be using as a smaller force and never mentioned the USA entering the war.

[QUOTE=Jojosun;2670896]Interesting video, US Military Veteran on the war in Ukraine. [URL]https://video.foxnews.com/v/6299099588001/[/URL]#sp=show-clips.

The decorated combat veteran says the USA Should stay out of the conflict in Ukraine, adding it will create a far more severe humanitarian.[/QUOTE]Did you watch the whole video? After your "decorated veteran" came on then a Fox News foreign corrospondent came on and called him out for distorting the truth and for appeasing and apoligising for a tyrant.

He says Americans do not want such and such and Europe does not want such and such - and yet the vast majority want to send weapons and even the majority want to impose no-fly zone. I do not suppor us or NATO setting up a no-fly zone. I know how risky that is. I believe they support it becuase they do not understand that a know fly zone requires shooting down planes and that is the same as sending in troops. ( In a world where there were no nuclear bombs I would love to see it - our F22s would dominate them so fast it would be a sight to see)
https://www.reuters.com/world/us/exclusive-americans-broadly-support-ukraine-no-fly-zone-russia-oil-ban-poll-2022-03-04/


I know who Colonel MacGregor is and I know there is a reason he was only a colonel and did not get selected to be a general. I am a US Army veteran and I am on several group pages of FB and other places with thousands of other veterans. They all say Macgregor is a nut case who should just go live in Russia. He was babbling nonsense about missiles. Look it up man, all of our missiles in eastern europe are defensive missilles designed to knock missiles out of the sky. They are not offensive weapons. He is a nutjob. He is literally lobbying for a foreign power saying we should not have a missile defense - which by the way is mostly ineffectiv to Russian misssiles and is directed at missiles from North Korea.

You realize Macgregor was in he was in "friends of the soviet union" (if you do not believe me check his wiki page it is in the first paragraph) and most vets I know think he got recruited by the Russian intelligence then, I do not know for sure of course but shit it makes sense. Everything he suggest doing is a benefit to Russia at the expense of the free world. I also know that the vast majority of US Army generals think his suggestions would weaken our nation's defense beyond repair.

It also amazes me with how many people are not up on international relations enough to realize that Russia and China are the same. They have a mutual defense pact. They are the same animal in this regard. So you cannot hope to fight one and not the other. So weakening our position in Europe or NATO is also appeasing China as much as appeasing Russia well but it seems politically convenient for people to ignore.

[URL]https://www.militarytimes.com/flashpoints/2021/11/24/russia-china-sign-roadmap-for-closer-military-cooperation/[/URL]

I know is it is a sad day when Americans start taking sides with a Tyrant over people who choose to live free. Ukrainians are literally saying right now "live free or die". To them it is not a bumper sticker. The president of Ukraine was offered a way out of the country and he said "I need ammunition not a ride". That is now how a corrupt leader acts. That is how a lover of theor country and of freedom acts. I am done now. Americans who do not believe in freedom should just all move to russia. I do not understand what they are waiting for.

[QUOTE=MojoBandit;2671134]Did you watch the whole video? After your "decorated veteran" came on then a Fox News foreign corrospondent came on and called him out for distorting the truth and for appeasing and apoligising for a tyrant.

enough to realize that Russia and China are the same. [/QUOTE]Definition of "a fox news correspondent": a talking head chickenhawk.

Russia and China are the same? Please don't try to explain that here Colonel General Mojo. Such insight is best kept in the highly classified think tank war room, the one in your head.

[QUOTE=MojoBandit;2671134]It also amazes me with how many people are not up on international relations enough to realize that Russia and China are the same. They have a mutual defense pact. They are the same animal in this regard. So you cannot hope to fight one and not the other. So weakening our position in Europe or NATO is also appeasing China as much as appeasing Russia well but it seems politically convenient for people to ignore.

[URL]https://www.militarytimes.com/flashpoints/2021/11/24/russia-china-sign-roadmap-for-closer-military-cooperation/[/URL].[/QUOTE]Agree with 99.9% of your points, except I would argue that the relationship between Russia and China may turn out to be less helpful to Russia than many think.

China always puts their own interests first, obviously, and they also have a history of issues, problems, and conflicts, with respect to Russia. For example, China makes mention from time to time of their "Century of Humiliation" at the hand of western powers. It's a powerful motivation that drives them to keep striving for power and dominance in world affairs. Well, Russia was one of the offending countries, in China's view. Do a search for Amur Annexation to see how much land China was forced to cede to Russia, including Vladivostok.

That's not to say they don't have some common interests. China is happy to use Russia to poke the West in the eye. But any help Russia gets is likely to come at an exorbitant price and China would love for Russia to become economically dependent on them. They would love to bleed Russia of oil and other resources at a huge discount and their history with Russia makes it likely they'd see the current situation as an opportunity to balance the ledger to some degree.

It's also worth pointing out that China needs the West, especially Europe, more than they need Russia. Russian GDP is less than that of Italy and can't replace the money China gets from Western markets. So China is walking a tightrope and is unlikely to be the savior to Russia that many think.

Here's a crude analogy: Since they're both predators, Russia in a military way and China in an economic way, their relationship is a bit like pairing Freddy Krueger from Friday the 13th with Michael from Halloween. How long before they turn their knives on each other?

P.S. The link you shared only mentions an agreement for closer coordination and cooperation which, while certainly a matter of concern, doesn't rise to the level of a mutual defense pact. I have a hard time envisioning China ever putting their soldiers in harm's way for Russian interests.

[QUOTE=Fred54;2670700]For donation I saw a lot of different stuff, even people asking to drop money on cards.

I assume there will be also some scam in these demands.

Personally I used this way.

[URL]https://bank.gov.ua/en/news/all/natsionalniy-bank-vidkriv-spetsrahunok-dlya-zboru-koshtiv-na-potrebi-armiyi[/URL]

And I also keep some money to help straight my Ukrainian contacts straight if they need / ask.

I am in regular contact with 5 people, 3 have left to Europe, 2 want to stay in Ukraine with one in Kiev.[/QUOTE]Thanks Fred! Although an insignificant amount it feels good to give a token of appreciation directly to the forces fighting the war for democracy.

For being a sex site, that was one heck of a good report on McGregor and other aspects of our air defense and offensive capacities in Europe and beyond. Perhaps, Flynn and McGregor are BFF?

[QUOTE=MojoBandit;2671134]Did you watch the whole video? After your "decorated veteran" came on then a Fox News foreign corrospondent came on and called him out for distorting the truth and for appeasing and apoligising for a tyrant.

He says Americans do not want such and such and Europe does not want such and such - and yet the vast majority want to send weapons and even the majority want to impose no-fly zone. I do not suppor us or NATO setting up a no-fly zone. I know how risky that is. I believe they support it becuase they do not understand that a know fly zone requires shooting down planes and that is the same as sending in troops. ( In a world where there were no nuclear bombs I would love to see it - our F22s would dominate them so fast it would be a sight to see)
https://www.reuters.com/world/us/exclusive-americans-broadly-support-ukraine-no-fly-zone-russia-oil-ban-poll-2022-03-04/


I know who Colonel MacGregor is and I know there is a reason he was only a colonel and did not get selected to be a general. I am a US Army veteran and I am on several group pages of FB and other places with thousands of other veterans. They all say Macgregor is a nut case who should just go live in Russia. He was babbling nonsense about missiles. Look it up man, all of our missiles in eastern europe are defensive missilles designed to knock missiles out of the sky. They are not offensive weapons. He is a nutjob. He is literally lobbying for a foreign power saying we should not have a missile defense - which by the way is mostly ineffectiv to Russian misssiles and is directed at missiles from North Korea.

You realize Macgregor was in he was in "friends of the soviet union" (if you do not believe me check his wiki page it is in the first paragraph) and most vets I know think he got recruited by the Russian intelligence then, I do not know for sure of course but shit it makes sense. Everything he suggest doing is a benefit to Russia at the expense of the free world. I also know that the vast majority of US Army generals think his suggestions would weaken our nation's defense beyond repair.

It also amazes me with how many people are not up on international relations enough to realize that Russia and China are the same. They have a mutual defense pact. They are the same animal in this regard. So you cannot hope to fight one and not the other. So weakening our position in Europe or NATO is also appeasing China as much as appeasing Russia well but it seems politically convenient for people to ignore.

[URL]https://www.militarytimes.com/flashpoints/2021/11/24/russia-china-sign-roadmap-for-closer-military-cooperation/[/URL]

I know is it is a sad day when Americans start taking sides with a Tyrant over people who choose to live free. Ukrainians are literally saying right now "live free or die". To them it is not a bumper sticker. The president of Ukraine was offered a way out of the country and he said "I need ammunition not a ride". That is now how a corrupt leader acts. That is how a lover of theor country and of freedom acts. I am done now. Americans who do not believe in freedom should just all move to russia. I do not understand what they are waiting for.[/QUOTE]

The Warsaw pact countries led by The Evil Empire invaded Czechoslovakia in August 1968,occupied it for few months, set up a puppet government, then withdrew their armies.

The rest is now history, But how does the Czech Republic now stand in world rankings?

'The Czech Republic Among the 20 Happiest Countries In The World'. [URL]https://www.praguemorning.cz/the-czech-republic-among-the-20-happiest-countries-in-the-world/[/URL].

[URL]https://kafkadesk.org/2019/10/02/czech-republic-ranked-in-worlds-top-10-best-countries-for-expats/[/URL]

[QUOTE=Golfinho;2671153]Definition of "a fox news correspondent": a talking head chickenhawk.

Russia and China are the same? Please don't try to explain that here Colonel General Mojo. Such insight is best kept in the highly classified think tank war room, the one in your head.[/QUOTE]Gee comrade, let me see here: Is there public information about he degree of which Russia has been arming China and the degree of there security cooperation? Lets see here.

https://warsawinstitute.review/issue-2020/russia-china-a-limited-liability-military-alliance/

[URL]https://thediplomat.com/2016/12/behind-china-and-russias-special-relationship/[/URL]

[URL]https://www.rand.org/pubs/research_reports/RR3067.html[/URL]

[URL]https://tass.com/politics/1379867?utm_source=google.com&utm_medium=organic&utm_campaign=google.com&utm_referrer=google.com[/URL]

[URL]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2001_Sino-Russian_Treaty_of_Friendship[/URL]

[URL]https://warontherocks.com/2020/08/the-emperors-league-understanding-sino-russian-defense-cooperation/[/URL]

[URL]https://apnews.com/article/russia-ukraine-europe-russia-china-beijing-c73b5249d313d661ce1836911b1dbc45[/URL]

[URL]https://www.scmp.com/news/china/military/article/3139603/how-china-grew-buyer-major-arms-trade-player[/URL]

[QUOTE=Jmsuttr;2671155]Agree with 99.9% of your points, except I would argue that the relationship between Russia and China may turn out to be less helpful to Russia than many think.

China always puts their own interests first, obviously, and they also have a history of issues, problems, and conflicts, with respect to Russia. For example, China makes mention from time to time of their "Century of Humiliation" at the hand of western powers. It's a powerful motivation that drives them to keep striving for power and dominance in world affairs. Well, Russia was one of the offending countries, in China's view. Do a search for Amur Annexation to see how much land China was forced to cede to Russia, including Vladivostok.

P.S. The link you shared only mentions an agreement for closer coordination and cooperation which, while certainly a matter of concern, doesn't rise to the level of a mutual defense pact. I have a hard time envisioning China ever putting their soldiers in harm's way for Russian interests.[/QUOTE]That is interesting about the history of ceded lands by China to the Russian empire. I did not know about that. While one looks at China as very pragmatic maybe they do hold some resentment toward the Russians over that but be that as it may. I admit that most people think that the ideal that Russia and China have a binding defense part -.

Article 9 of the 2001 Sino-Russian Treaty of Good-Neighborliness and Friendly Cooperation states: "When a situation arises in which one of the contracting parties deems that peace is being threatened and undermined or its security interests are involved, or when it is confronted with the threat of aggression, the contracting parties shall immediately hold contacts and consultations in order to eliminate such threats. ".

[URL]https://warsawinstitute.review/issue-2020/russia-china-a-limited-liability-military-alliance/[/URL]

[QUOTE=Jojosun;2671240]The Warsaw pact countries led by The Evil Empire invaded Czechoslovakia in August 1968,occupied it for few months, set up a puppet government, then withdrew their armies.

The rest is now history, But how does the Czech Republic now stand in world rankings?

'The Czech Republic Among the 20 Happiest Countries In The World'. [URL]https://www.praguemorning.cz/the-czech-republic-among-the-20-happiest-countries-in-the-world/[/URL].

[URL]https://kafkadesk.org/2019/10/02/czech-republic-ranked-in-worlds-top-10-best-countries-for-expats/[/URL][/QUOTE]How incredibly simplistic, shallow, and uninformed. Have you ever been to the Czech Republic? Do you know any Czech people? The Russian aggression launched against them was a dark and painful time in their history. Many, many suffered and were "disappeared". A country's people should be able to pursue happiness without having to experience the pain of the paws of the Russian bear, or constantly be in fear of it. Don't you people see that [B]this[/B] is exactly why so many countries have lined up to join NATO? The don't like Russia. They fear Russia. And Russia has done plenty, and [B]continues[/B] to do plenty, to sustain this sentiment. The most effective way to break a bully is to stand up to him. That doesn't mean there will be no pain. I mean, once the bully sees his power and influence waning, he might resort to dirty tricks. Like trying to bite your ear off (play on Mike Tyson the bully). But then again, anybody who enjoys freedom understands the following. That freedom is never free! It normally is only achieved and preserved through blood.

Gentlemen,

The purpose of this Forum is to facilitate the exchange of information between men who are looking for sex with women. It is not a Forum for political discussion. Let us keep the discussion relevant.

[QUOTE=MojoBandit;2671274]That is interesting about the history of ceded lands by China to the Russian empire. I did not know about that. While one looks at China as very pragmatic maybe they do hold some resentment toward the Russians over that but be that as it may. I admit that most people think that the ideal that Russia and China have a binding defense part -.

Article 9 of the 2001 Sino-Russian Treaty of Good-Neighborliness and Friendly Cooperation states: "When a situation arises in which one of the contracting parties deems that peace is being threatened and undermined or its security interests are involved, or when it is confronted with the threat of aggression, the contracting parties shall immediately hold contacts and consultations in order to eliminate such threats. ".

[URL]https://warsawinstitute.review/issue-2020/russia-china-a-limited-liability-military-alliance/[/URL][/QUOTE]As I understand it, a cardinal rule of diplomacy is that, you want a treaty to truly be binding, then you need lock it down with language that leaves no wiggle room. Otherwise any loophole or ambiguous interpretation is likely to be exploited, if that happens to serve the interest of the other party.

I would invite you to compare your Article 9 of the "Treaty of Good-Neighborliness and Friendly Cooperation" with Article 5 of the NATO treaty.

[URL]https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/topics_110496.htm[/URL]

[URL]https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natolive/official_texts_17120.htm[/URL]

There's a big difference between "immediately hold contacts and consultations" and NATO's "The Parties agree that an armed attack against one or more of them in Europe or North America shall be considered an attack against them all" provision.

Now, that doesn't mean China couldn't interpret Article 9 to include armed assistance, IF they wanted to and IF it served their interests. But that treaty only commits them to contacts and consultations, nothing more.

Like you, I've been a China and Russia watcher for many years. I can't recall reading or hearing any expert assert that China and Russia have a binding mutual defense pact. And, given the current state of affairs, I think we'd be hearing a lot about it. If, however, you have a link or reference to an expert who does make that assertion, I'd certainly be glad to check it out.