Kyiv

[QUOTE=Fido Dido]If true then why the hell she doesn't kick him out the door?

Correct: very American political correct feminist bullshit argument of Cruiser. The girl is a hooker and who is to blame? A guy! A guy who forces her![/QUOTE]

Jeez FD, that's not feminist or politically correct, that's just pointing out that no matter what their "game face" says to you, many of them live really shitty lives.

If I really cared I suppose I'd stop banging pros, but it still is a thought that occasionally crosses my mind. I hope I never one day become totally callous to the plight of some of the women I fuck.

[QUOTE=Doctor_Skank]Jeez Fido, don't live in a fantasy world . . . . It's just stating a simple truth . . .[/QUOTE]Dear Doctor, don't think I live in a fantasy world.
And, how for shure do you know that what you write is the simple thruth and nothing but the simple thruth?

I wouldn't find any joy in exploiting women who are forced for wathever reason. Specially not desperate drug adicted prostitutes. Apart from the risks of diseases.

The only time a girl told me she was forced to be a prostitute was in a brothel in South America. The girl told me this after I had prepayed for her. Something like $US 25. $US 25 is not much for a GIA-girl but it is a lot of money in certain parts of South America.
After she told me she was forced I didn't want to have sex with her anymore. Although I didn't believe her story. To me it was just a trick to get money for doing nothing.

Also once spoke to a girl who claimed to be a prostitue because she had to buy medicine for her grandmother. Sorry, but I don't believe these stories.

[QUOTE=Doctor_Skank]. . . but you have to respect the capacity of endurance they have.[/QUOTE]I didn't write of disrespect for prostitutes. Why should I disrespect the women whose services I am glad to use?

Working girls I have met knew very well what they were doing, were no victims and liked to earn good and quick money.
I hope the girls spend the money on something usefull like a study or an investment. But lots of them spend it on worthless things like make up, clothes, cellphones, jewelery and boyfriends.
Most complaints I heard were from girls who made good money in the thermas in Rio. Biggest problem for them was the boredom of being 5 or 6 days a week 7 to 8 hours a day in therma (=disco/brothel/bar).
With good money the therma girls make I mean 10 times the official minimun wage in their country. If they invest well they can make a good living on that money after they are retired.

Only working girls I met in the Ukrain were Suzi and Sacha in Odessa and Yana from GIA in Kiev. To me they were independend women, who didn't mind what they were doing. They also were glad to accept my money.
Remark about these Ukrain working girls: it was nice being with them, althoug I think they were too expensive. Will not repeat on them. I certainly am dazzled with the prices at RP I read about on this forum.

[QUOTE=Fido Dido]Dear Doctor, don't think I live in a fantasy world.
And, how for shure do you know that what you write is the simple thruth and nothing but the simple thruth?
[/QUOTE]

I don't claim to know everything nor do I believe that all pros lead shitty lives or are forced to do what they do. I've known happy pros as well. I doubt they'll keep that happy demeanor forever if they stay in the business too long however.

However, if you've fucked more than just a few pros in Kiev Fido, than you've very likely also fucked ones coerced into working that job one way or another... just as Cruiser said... whether it's physical force, financial duress or the need to raise a child on a wage higher than she'd get working the local produkti. By no means are all pros doing their job because they really enjoy it. I'm amazed by how many actually do enjoy it, but am also aware of those that don't.

Who was looking to moralize this? I was simply stating some truths. The way you reacted is quite interesting Fido. You don't think you are fucking drug addicted diseased prostitutes? Really? Where do you find your working girls? Fantasyland? Oh wait, you find your girls in the high class $25 bordello's in South America, I am sure none of those girls or the last 1,000 guys they fucked were carrying any diseases. Those girls who you have been banging at GIA who have been on there website for the last 2-3 years, do you think they are sex crazed nympo's enjoying the occasional degradation and abuse from clients - think they might be heavily medicating themselves to make it through the day? I am always interested in the length’s people will go to moralize their activities. Been feeling exploited by the mean prostitutes lately Fido?

In the pimp-john-ho equation it is always the ho who is the loser. Gritty and harsh yes but that is the truth at the end of the day. I could go on and on about this but I'm guessing at least 70% of the people reading this forum want to ignore the ugly truth.

Originally Posted by Cruiser D
Ever seen a prostitute crying because she doesn't want to be one? Yet her abusive drunk boyfriend keeps sending her out because he is too lazy to get a job?

[QUOTE=Fido Dido]If true then why the hell she doesn't kick him out the door?
[/QUOTE]

Fido,

A reasonable question coming from one of us - male, monger etc.

However, you also need to look at it from the girl's point of view and the pysche of many of them for an answer to the question.

In many or most cases such as the one above and in a lot of abusive relationships what keeps the women there is a psychological dependency on the drunk boyfriend, insecurity, and often just plain certainty that as bad as it is, it is probably better than not being there or doing that.

There is often at one point and remaining aspects of love that the woman feels for the, in our eyes, rat. That's the way many woman are wired mentally and emotionally. For them this is on the surface rational behaviour, for us hard to comprehend.

Men are not so prone to this and so it is very difficult for us to understand why they remain. But they do. As we know well, women are mysterious creatures that take a long time to even partially figure out. One of life's joys is exploring them in all their forms and aspects.

[QUOTE=Jackmiov]IT,

Yes, the Arena complex is at the Bessarabaya Square end of Kreshatik. 112 and the Arena bar, disco and Restaurant are there. Just to clarify, I met her in 112 and took her to the Arena restaurant because I was hungry and I wanted to make sure her energy levels were up.

Jack.[/QUOTE]


I just usally rent flats on ul. Baseina, so it's two-three minutes walt I wanted to be sure it was the same!

IT

I recently accepted a job offer in Kiev and will move there soon. Can anybody recommend me good real estate agencies for long-term rentals? What districts of Kiev are best to live for somebody actively engaged in our hobby? I would appreciate any advices regarding relocation, apartments, etc.

Ah Skank, you are the best at posts.

I have been to ukraine 5-6 times, and agree with almost everything you say, exceptint the last-hence my post.

I have almost never seen evidence of coercion in a provider, and certainly not in ukraine, although I have met more than a few who would have gladly departed to another country with a halfway decent man. Jbut the same might be said of a male plumber: it just makes sense to better oneself. Because I am merely a one quarter decent man, the topic is moot.

In fact, I believe, we are all, each of us, coerced by some circumstance. The human condition.

I have found the girls of Kev and Karkov to be very sweet, accomadating, and genuine. In odessa I got a freebie, except I felt bad and gave her money anyhow, taht might have been a little delusional on my part, the freebie portion but, if I fooled myself inot thinking taht, so what, I mean she called the next day and I did not answer rhe call. I am not entirely sure what tha tmeans, but I am sure the same would not have happened where I live.

Anyhow, thanks for your insight

By good real estate agency I hope you mean one that isn't going to rip you off too much and provide something beyond the bare essence service they feel they can get away with. Otherwise you are heading to the wrong city.

As far as picking one district over another. If you don't mind riding the metro (which is closed from 1am-5am - I think) then any part of Kiev is fine. If you are on a budget but still looking to be in the midst of things then maybe Podil might be an option. If money is no object and you want to be in the middle of the action then you want to be on, or a block away from Khreschatyk. Which by the way it not considered an elite address in Kiev. I'm sure Uke will correct me if I am wrong but I think Lypky and Pechers'k is where the quiet money likes to live.

Moral and prostitution

A lot have already been said about this but I will fill in with some personal considerations. Its true that a lot of hookers in East Europe have really rough times. So does women in general in these countries. The conditions of the pros are simply a reflection of the girls situations in general. Worse in the east and better in the west.

To throw in a bit of fuel I want to say that its bullshit to believe all hookers are forced into this work. From the feministic point of view they of course are. There is a certain percent of girls in the west that works as escorts just simply because of the top money they can make. And they do like it! They have fun and even get orgasms! Im sure and I know this goes for some girls in East Europe too. A career after university is a really long and hard way to get a fancy income. However the really brutal sides of prostitution is corresponding for the largest part. Especially in strong male culture countries and where prostitution is illegal. Its the culture to think hookers are dirty bad girls and they got treated accordingly. Not the Geishas in Japan though, because they are respected! Its also possible to compare with the FKK clubs in Germany. These girls are not forced to do the hooking! And it benefits for all participants! So far generalisations cant be done about hookers.

Lets define forced prostitution. I’ll give you me opinion. A girl that’s forced has a threat hanging over her if she doesn’t want to work, or limited freedom to choose what to do, or simply being kidnapped, beaten etc. Can be maffia, boyfriend or even relatives! I cant say that a girl that has to work as a hooker for economical reasons are being forced. In that case the term forced would be valid for most people working, because we all need an income to live. Its often a choice to take a higher paid job to get a nice living for your child or for yourself. It's a risky job for sure but considered a girl easily makes 10 times more, or even much more, than working at a Fabrika it just that tempting for them. To work in a Fabrika is also risky! Its not a coincidence the average length of a life in EE is considerably shorter than in the west! A life is simply just not worth much in EE. To be a pilot is also a risky job but they also have higher wages. Policemen doesn’t however.

There is an organisation called sex workers rights organisation and their main issue is not to stop prostitution but to improve the working conditions. I couldn’t agree more!

In my opinion it can sometimes be hard to say if a girl is forced or not. But a thumb rule is if they can enjoy the time and be relaxed and laugh at your jokes. Not correct in all cases but there is some truth in it. Those girls with no smile and no shine in their eyes, that just screams to you that this is an unhappy girl, are to be avoided not to support the powers forcing her. And not to support the business making it profitable to kidnap and force other girls to work. Really we customers can contribute with some moral here and chose the right girls to promote the brothels and organisations giving the girls fair conditions. We cant stop it but we can make a contribution to the better! And for those considering hookers to be human beings, that includes myself, will feel a bit better afterwards about the moral issue. However we cant be like priests either.

Its after a girl has met a number of A-holes treating here like shit that she begins to get cold hearted. And then she get beaten by the pimp until she stops complain so she will follow any A-hole because she have to work. The gypsy maffia is the worst kind and girls will simply be beaten until they do as told or even killed. To support systems like that gives a really bad taste in my mouth.

This subject shouldn’t be glorified because so many girls end up in big problems and all mongers using hookers are all more or less part of it. Especially in EE and Turkey etc. But we can try to give them a nice time and definetely avoid any girl showing signs of being forced. Because most of us want hookers that provide us with that pussy when our freebies fail to make us happy! And there are girls with fair conditions that we can have fun with! I have said no to a number of sad looking hookers! I also try do hookers less often because of bad service and risk of AIDS.

Just my two cents.

Felix

P.S I'm sorry but my post may not belong here since its a general issue.

Cruiser,

I do not want to turn this into a real estate thread for Hedonist and others moving to Kiev, therefore I will be brief.

With modern luxury housing now going up like mushrooms most everywhere, finding quality and comfort are no longer the issues they once were. It is now just a matter of price. For older building with the so-called "Euro-remont" one bedrooms in the center expect to pay anywhere from $1500 and up, new buildings and apartments are $2000 and up. Prices are going up every day, it seems.

You won't find anything decent in the city for less unless you are local with connections. Unrenovated studios are going for $500-$750 and more depending on location.

As for location, Pechersk and Lypky are the two best in my opinion. Close enough to Khreshchatik and even River Palace but far enough away from them if you want to have a normal life as well. Podil is fine, slightly less costly and it has its own charms. Forget about the Left Bank area, just a bedroom community with nothing to do there except Hydropark in the summer.

Otherwise, if you take a map of Kiev, stick a pin on the center of Khreshchatik and draw a semicircle away from the river and a distance all around of no more than 3 miles/5 kilometers, then just about anything in that semicircle should meet all your needs.

Wrong VV.

The girls at RP are doing mostly CBJ's now too.

Prostitution - Morals. I promise, this will be my last words on the subject (for a while) You guys either have no clue as to what is really going on or you really don't want to. Whatever it takes to help you sleep at night next to your wife...

[QUOTE=Cruiser D]Who was looking to moralize this? I
. . .
I could go on and on about this but I'm guessing at least 70% of the people reading this forum want to ignore the ugly truth.[/QUOTE]

Lot of stories recently about how horribe life can be for a pro from [b]Cruiser D[/b] and [b]Doctor Shank[/b]. With all due respect, please could you answer the following questions?

Situation: a guy pays $US 300 for a "River Palace" girl.
Question: is the girl a victim? or is the guy just stupid?

Situation: a US-guy gets a divorce. Has to give up half of his possesions. Has to pay allimony and is only sparsesum allowed to see his children.
Question: Who is the victim? The girl or the guy?

Situation: I have met only few working girls in the Ukrain. In Kiev I did met Yana from GIA. I think she is a nymphomatic. Nothing bad with that. To me she is a nice girl. I pay her good money. I do like her. She is not stupid. Studying law. Tells me she passes all exams with good degrees. She likes luxuary. Showed me the nice and expensive clothes she is wearing. Dolce & Gabbana, Versace, Prada. She is nice and sweet. But she also is business like. No minute for nothing!
Question: you want me to feel guilty?
Answer: sorry don't feel so!

[QUOTE=Fido Dido]Lot of stories recently about how horribe life can be for a pro from [b]Cruiser D[/b] and [b]Doctor Shank[/b]. With all due respect, please could you answer the following questions?[/QUOTE]

Oh boy, gladly! Thought you'd never ask!

[QUOTE=Fido Dido]Situation: a guy pays $US 300 for a "River Palace" girl.
Question: is the girl a victim? or is the guy just stupid?[/QUOTE]

Depends on a girl, and depends on a guy. If the girl can handle the mental aspects of selling her body, and the guy treats her like a human being, and is not repulsive (or in rare cases like me happens to be breathtakingly gorgeous), then you bet the girl's not a victim. However if the guy is, like majority of her clients, an overweight slobbering middle-aged gentleman, and when he mounts her with all of his 300 lbs and she gets a face-full of hairy flabby sweaty manboob, you'd better hope the girl has the mental capacity to laugh it off and erase it from memory quickly.

[QUOTE=Fido Dido]Situation: a US-guy gets a divorce. Has to give up half of his possesions. Has to pay allimony and is only sparsesum allowed to see his children.
Question: Who is the victim? The girl or the guy?[/QUOTE]

Oh woe is us, poor men of the 21st century. Where hath the good times gone, when women knew their place, stayed in the back of the house, cooked, cleaned, and spoke only when spoken to? How dare they think that they are entitled to anything at all when leaving us - moreover, how dare they even consider the possibility! Why can't they just feel deliriously happy that a man invites them into his household, and count their blessings till their final breath that some man out there decides to marry them.

In a divorce, everyone is a victim, to a certain degree. However in cases when the husband was an irrational mysoginistic dimwit, the wife is certainly better for it, and the more she can get out of him, the better, I say.

[QUOTE=Fido Dido]Situation: I have met only few working girls in the Ukrain. In Kiev I did met Yana from GIA. I think she is a nymphomatic. Nothing bad with that. To me she is a nice girl. I pay her good money. I do like her. She is not stupid. Studying law. Tells me she passes all exams with good degrees. She likes luxuary. Showed me the nice and expensive clothes she is wearing. Dolce & Gabbana, Versace, Prada. She is nice and sweet. But she also is business like. No minute for nothing!
Question: you want me to feel guilty?
Answer: sorry don't feel so![/QUOTE]

Well I've met a few more working girls than you. I've seen quite a few cases of a girl who just couldn't take it mentally, and as I'd see her again and again over the course of several months or sometimes years, I'd see them deteriorate from vibrant young women to absolute wrecks, hollow shells, with no more dreams or desires or thoughts. Their clientelle are collectively responsible. She sees the nice guys she enjoyed being with and felt a connection suddenly ignore her, pretend she doesn't exist, and go with other girls; she sleeps with men who treat her like a sub-human; she'll have an occasional creep who'll rob her or rough her up; and after a while she'll develop a very skewed worldview where she'll think of herself as disposable and worthless, and of men as hearless decieving animals.

Selling one's body is not your average impersonal commercial transaction. Girls who can handle it are rare. It leaves a mark. You may not notice it every time, you may not notice it right away, not every girl will show it, but I've seen it many times. It's heartwrenching.

perhaps a reminder that we are not alone in this, and what we say, do, even think may come around to ‘bite’ us!

i was in club 44 having drinks with a very nice professional (as in career) 31 year old. it was our 2nd date. my mobile rings and i tell her its my friend rick (names changed to protect the innocent & guilty) i answer but ‘blow’ him off quickly to get back to better things! especially these nicely enhanced ‘water juggs’.

lili (name changed to protect the innocent) immediately says "i know rick, he’s american and has written me." of course, rick writes everyone i say. "he’s a sicko "wanted me to peeee on him!" replies lili.

oh no, not rick! i remark. she then insists its rick and describes his hometown and distinctive photos.

hmmm, i begin to smile & laugh to myself, its rick alright, rick2 – another guy i ‘mildly’ know – but yet have very intimate knowledge of!

yeah lili, your right he does like that! so will you oblige him?

she replied, ‘hexx no!

man, i laughed almost all night thinking just how much ‘stuff’ gets around in this town and how embarrassed rick2 would be if he happened to show up about then. i think we get somewhat ‘immune’ to this internet beast and think it is ‘static’ and not actually a living, breathing monster that can and will come around and ‘bite ya’ !!

ls guy