Bangkok Reports

[QUOTE=Paul Kausch;1539840]I'm going to make an outlandish statement and suggest a good sex worker should be held in higher regard than the common wife. First, the sex worker is more direct and honest. She offers a menu of pleasures. If you're interested, pay her the agreed rate and have your fun. There is no nagging or complaining; and afterwards you're free to go about your business as you please. A wife locks you into a lifetime relationship. She will nag, never stop demanding money, and the demands will always increase, even as she grows old and fat. When you want sex she's too tired or has a headache. Want a little a-level or even CIM, forget it, what do you thing she is? When you've had enough and try to escape the misery, she'll take you for everything you have, and then perhaps a bit more for good measure. In contrast a good sex worker brings nothing but pleasure to many men, perhaps many, many men. Take the famous Apple of Cherry Massage fame. How much pleasure did she give to how many men? Has anyone read or heard about a guy who left her disappointed.[/QUOTE]PK, you compared a GOOD sex worker to a COMMON wife. Why not compare good with good or common with common? A good sex worker is hard to come by and takes many trials to find. With a limited time in Bangkok a guy has to dive in head first without pussyfooting around. He is subject to a big margin of fuck ups throughout his many trials.

A guy has all the time in the world to choose a wife so there is no reason to be in such a rush that he fucks up and chooses wrong. And if I was to choose a wife I wouldn't get a common one as you have described. She would have to be damn good for me. I'm not understanding how and why guys are choosing women who won't eat right and go to the gym, won't have sex with them when and how they want it, and demand money, and then later on complain about it. My relationship with my wife was nothing like that. We always kept our money separate and each paid the bills that each was responsible for. When we decided to break up we split everything that we had obtined together evenly. It sounds like some guys should make wiser decisions.

[QUOTE=Run Mann; 1539774]Now you're introducing ridiculous facts not in evidence. If you walk around with a girl who is not a hooker and acts and dress like this then you'll be judge the same way. Surely you know that not all SP are as you described. Walk around with a hi-so girl who is snobbish and disrespectful, you'll be judged too.

That is your choice, you can't force it on anyone else, we're not all the same as we all operate differently. But I still don't get what the culture is doing for you or not doing base on who you date. They will judge you regardless of who you are with, the conventional wisdom falang + Thai = P4P in some from or the other. You can deny is all you want and say times are changing but the point is they judge.

This affected you how? I have been to many of these functions and all they do is pass judgment on everyone. The judge the couple who is in an interracial relationship or the one with younger or older spouse or the one with the foreign spouse, they judge everyone. I will tell you even though you've been here longer than me that I know of many expats who are not only in relationships with former SP, they are married to them and I've never seen them being concern with the people passing judgment. Their happiness is more important to them. The fact that other people are uncomfortable because of a life style choice one makes is a poor reason to change to gain their approval, especially judgmental people. But I will not criticize you for living your life the way you do, I just won't live mine the same way you do.[/QUOTE]I have not really observed girls who are not hookers dressing like hookers.

I would say that even 5 years ago your second paragraph would be accurate, now not so much. The majority of farang + thai relationships now are not hooker and host. Those relationships are painfully obvious and always have been.

Most expats that I know view Thailand a simply a stopover. Very few will choose to remain her for the duration. Their Thai spouse will accompany them to Farang land where things are in fact different. When a person plans to be somewhere long term he / she better for the most part buy into the culture.

Asians are judgmental in a different way than we Westerners. Ask an Asian what makes a beautiful woman and 9 times out of 10 you will get the same answer. Their norms and mores are far more rigid and formed than ours. They also accept these tenants mainly without question. Everything is based on face. That is what allows people to be promiscuous. As long as you do not cause your partner to lose face, you have free rein to do as you please. Many of us take advantage of that.

Of course taking an obvious bar girl to a dinner party with your Thai business associates and their wives will cause you to lose face. The Thai dudes will wonder what is wrong with you and the women will just think you are nasty. Would you take a 6th grade educated West Virginia hillbilly with you to a wedding at the country club? Probably not. Would you even consider dating a woman like that back home? Probably not. The only difference between bar girls and their West Virginia sister is the gals here tend to be slim and have all their teeth. Methinks that is not a basis for a long term relationship. Eventually it will come back to bite you.

My point is simply this; we all make choices when it comes to relationships. Make a choice that helps you in more ways then just keeping jr happy.

[QUOTE=Mr Enternational;1539719]I also still don't get the thing where guys say well all women are hoars because you are paying for it in one way or another - I'm actually paying to go out and enjoy myself with someone I have an interest in, not for sex. So I guess I was the hoar when my girlfriend took me to Krabi and paid for everything and fucked me silly.[/QUOTE]I specifically pay for sex. I go to an oily, spend an hour and a half do all kinds of things and then leave. I don't want to hear about sick mom, annoyed brother, drunk buffalo. I just want 90 min of full on PSE and then I want to leave. Just like riding a roller coaster only more fun.

The only gal I invest any emotion or effort in is my girlfriend. I have no desire to spend time with any other woman unless it is in the above fashion. Going to an oily is a totally separate experience. It is like comparing playing golf with making a carrot cake.

Milan Kundera said it so well in The Unbearable Lightness of Being. Paraphrased- Lust and love are different if not opposite emotions. Lust extends to countless women, love to only one. Love is expressed in the desire for shared sleep.

I wholeheartedly agree. There is only one woman I want to sleep beside and wake up with. I want to doink lots of 'them.

[QUOTE=Paul Kausch;1539840]I'm going to make an outlandish statement and suggest a good sex worker should be held in higher regard than the common wife. First, the sex worker is more direct and honest. She offers a menu of pleasures. If you're interested, pay her the agreed rate and have your fun. There is no nagging or complaining; and afterwards you're free to go about your business as you please. A wife locks you into a lifetime relationship. She will nag, never stop demanding money, and the demands will always increase, even as she grows old and fat. When you want sex she's too tired or has a headache. Want a little a-level or even CIM, forget it, what do you thing she is? When you've had enough and try to escape the misery, she'll take you for everything you have, and then perhaps a bit more for good measure. In contrast a good sex worker brings nothing but pleasure to many men, perhaps many, many men. Take the famous Apple of Cherry Massage fame. How much pleasure did she give to how many men? Has anyone read or heard about a guy who left her disappointed.[/QUOTE]You get totally different things from a sex worker as opposed to a companion that you choose to share your life with. Nagging, complaining? I have had none of that with my two long term Thai girlfriends. Sex? Is it really that important to have CIM and A-levels at home? Is it a deal killer? Why should it be when you can go out and have that with countless hookers? In the West it is important to be extremely sexually compatible with your partner. Here not so much. There are other things that are far more important.

[QUOTE=Mr Enternational; 1539874]PK, you compared a GOOD sex worker to a COMMON wife. Why not compare good with good or common with common? A good sex worker is hard to come by and takes many trials to find. With a limited time in Bangkok a guy has to dive in head first without pussyfooting around. He is subject to a big margin of fuck ups throughout his many trials.

A guy has all the time in the world to choose a wife so there is no reason to be in such a rush that he fucks up and chooses wrong. And if I was to choose a wife I wouldn't get a common one as you have described. She would have to be damn good for me. I'm not understanding how and why guys are choosing women who won't eat right and go to the gym, won't have sex with them when and how they want it, and demand money, and then later on complain about it. My relationship with my wife was nothing like that. We always kept our money separate and each paid the bills that each was responsible for. When we decided to break up we split everything that we had obtined together evenly. It sounds like some guys should make wiser decisions.[/QUOTE]Amen. I think many dudes have broken "pickers." They choose women because they like the sex. As my friend used to say,"He stuck it in and in six seconds he was in love." Confusing lust with love is very easy for us Westerners as sex is not so easy to obtain in the West. Come over here, and getting laid is like going to McDonalds.

[QUOTE=Mr Enternational; 1539874]PK, you compared a GOOD sex worker to a COMMON wife. Why not compare good with good or common with common?[/QUOTE]First, my post was written tongue in cheek. I thought by opening the post with comments on the big offer versus small offer story would make it clear my post was intended to be funny and not serious; and I opened by writing I was making an outlandish statement. Seems whenever I don't use smilies, sarcasm and attempts at dry wit are misunderstood. But let me respond to your points, not to argue with you but to develop the discussion.

Finding good sex workers: by doing research it is possible to find a few good sex workers. A year or more ago ISG was a good source; however, I've noticed for some time now there are few reviews of sex workers in general and few members seem to want to disclose the names of the good ones they come across. Or perhaps Tomas, the Whorist, is correct in saying most ISG members are frustrated, married men who are fantasizing about locales they have never visited. ;) Regardless, back to my point, generally one session is enough to spot a good lady and she is likely to be even better if you see her again in a few days. And when you get tired of her, don't go back. A bad one costs you the MP fee and a reduced tip. The costs of mistakes are small.

Finding a good wife: this involves much more time, effort and expense. If after a first date you like a lady you will need to date her a few more times to get to know her. Some ladies expect to share the cost of dating equally, some (I think a majority) do not. You likely will have to date several ladies before you find someone who is a good matrimonial match. Then you have to invest considerable time (and money) into the relationship to verify your feelings and comparability. Even if all indications are good and you decide to get married, some people change after they are married. I've known men and women who acted a certain way to "land" their spouse only to revert to their real manner and personality after the wedding, to the alarm of their partner. A marriage is a long term commitment. Years in the future either person may have changed, physically, emotionally, intellectually. What was once a good relationship may be in decline. Getting out of a bad marriage is often costly, financially and emotionally.

I'm not saying one should not marry, have children, raise and support a family. Perhaps the most important thing we do in our life is to produce and raise good children to ensure the quality of the next generation. I was married for 20 years, raised two intelligent and wonderful children. My divorce was relatively simple and easy; but I've known men who thought their divorces would be simple and easy only to find themselves spending a lot of money defending a prenuptial agreement. I read a recent article in which the author asked very wealthy men what they most feared in life. By far the most common response was a divorce.

[QUOTE=Goatscrot;1539901]You get totally different things from a sex worker as opposed to a companion that you choose to share your life with. Nagging, complaining? I have had none of that with my two long term Thai girlfriends. Sex? Is it really that important to have CIM and A-levels at home? Is it a deal killer? Why should it be when you can go out and have that with countless hookers? In the West it is important to be extremely sexually compatible with your partner. Here not so much. There are other things that are far more important.[/QUOTE]This is absolutely brilliant!

Its become almost impossible to find it all in 1 partner. That is why the American divorce rate is over 50 percent and the dissatisfaction rate is even higher. The divorce rate would be 95 percent "but for the kids".

[QUOTE=Goatscrot;1539891]The only difference between bar girls and their West Virginia sister is the gals here tend to be slim and have all their teeth. Methinks that is not a basis for a long term relationship. Eventually it will come back to bite you.[/QUOTE]OF course, with all those teeth in good condition it is a foregone conclusion she will bite you.

Silliness aside, I once heard somewhere that a "real lady" only accepts flowers and chocolates, accepting anything else makes her less than a "lady".

Accepting money for services (to be) rendered makes her P4P and yes that will include most married women.

Finally some posts with a balanced view here, from Western 787, Paul Kausch and Run Mann. Good!

Posters like Phordpahn, Enternational, Goatscrot do have SOME interesting stuff in their posts; like critcizing the naive tourist and sharing their experience of staying many years in Thailand. BUT; they take it WAY too long IMHO, and are themselves naive in believing what their girlfriends or "girlfriends" tell them. I find it mildly amusing that some expats (or is it "locals") after a while in this country feel that they are SO much above the tourists. And then become CONDITIONED to see it like the "good" girls or "good girls" see it. (The social pecking order.) At least the short-time tourist has the excuse of inexperience! To laugh openly at the sex-tourist and his "girlfriend" I find very inpolite.

That said, I see that there's different viewpoints based on where you stand in life, if you like the married Asian lifestyle: Good for you. The discussion turned into that subject with the last postings, but that's a different issue than the OP (Daddy San) started with.

Also interesting to see how some react to opposing views with aggressiveness and RHETORICAL QUESTIONS WHICH MAKE DISCUSSION DIFFICULT. Adversarial. And recurrent here is the general disdain for p4p: "painfully true that it's there" and so on, as one poster put it. Why?

To the OP: Thailand and Thais has a RELATIVELY liberal wiew on p4p, BUT; not even here is it regarded as "totally nice", and even less so when there are foreigners involved. However, it's VERY seldom for them to harass like you described, but that's also because they are polite poeple, they don't want to make other people lose face. However they may THINK negatively about you. Also: I dont' find your question silly, on the conrary I find it interesting and a challange to answer.

My suggestion: Don't care what other people think, just enjoy your time with the p4p-women here. Including "parading" in the street. Also enjoy GFE with them it that's your cup of tea. Just have in the back of your head that it's a game.

I hope you all out there have a nice time with your tea, whatever cup it is in.

[QUOTE=Western787; 1539576]IMHO for every full time hooker in Bangkok, there are at least 4 semi-pro part timers: some university students, office workers, or other categories. And unless there is a contextual clue such as them walking hand in hand with an older Farang, or hanging in Beergarden, Thermae, or to a lesser extent in Spasso's or similar venues, one cannot necessarily pick them out as working girls.

Aggressive and open verbal harassment of a working girl walking with her customer on Sukhumvit or other tourist areas is in fact very uncommon. Its outlier behavior. Nor are young Thai males to any large extent being denied sex because of sex tourists buying hookers, as most of the these girls have Thai boyfriends anyways. I would be very surprised if it dificult for the average young Thai to get laid, so need to be bitter and take it out on a working girl. Also we know Thais reserve the cream of the crop for themselves, so many of these Thais, if for example if they got a good job, have access to some amazingly hot women.

They were probably drunk and possibly (its not inconceivable at least) experiencing frustration and anger maybe because of the protest related economic hit they may be still experiencing, which even in the best case scenario could linger another 3 to 6 months with one high season already missed, so they see a hooker making easy money and end up acting like jerks.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=Daddy San;1539344]Yesterday morning, while walking the 100 m from my hotel to Sukhumvit with my GF of the previous night. 3 different thai louts followed us and called 'things' after my GF.

Even though I did not understand a single word, just by the sound of it, it definitely did not sound nice, as the unhappy look on my GF's face confirmed.
At first, she didn't want to tell what the men had been calling, but finally admitted that they had been calling her names, of which "Falang Holiday Wh*o*re" was the nicest.

With the Sukhumvit area practically 'living' off sex services provided to tourists and from what I thought to know about Thai women's attitude towards sex c.q. prostitution, I am surprised at such open animosity towards one of their own.

I would be interested to hear from other members (preferably only those, who know what they are talking about) , of similar experiences and of the Thai society's attitude towards Thai-falang p4p relationsships in general.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=Goatscrot; 1539891]I have not really observed girls who are not hookers dressing like hookers.

I would say that even 5 years ago your second paragraph would be accurate, now not so much. The majority of farang + thai relationships now are not hooker and host. Those relationships are painfully obvious and always have been.

Most expats that I know view Thailand a simply a stopover. Very few will choose to remain her for the duration. Their Thai spouse will accompany them to Farang land where things are in fact different. When a person plans to be somewhere long term he / she better for the most part buy into the culture.

Asians are judgmental in a different way than we Westerners. Ask an Asian what makes a beautiful woman and 9 times out of 10 you will get the same answer. Their norms and mores are far more rigid and formed than ours. They also accept these tenants mainly without question. Everything is based on face. That is what allows people to be promiscuous. As long as you do not cause your partner to lose face, you have free rein to do as you please. Many of us take advantage of that.

Of course taking an obvious bar girl to a dinner party with your Thai business associates and their wives will cause you to lose face. The Thai dudes will wonder what is wrong with you and the women will just think you are nasty. Would you take a 6th grade educated West Virginia hillbilly with you to a wedding at the country club? Probably not. Would you even consider dating a woman like that back home? Probably not. The only difference between bar girls and their West Virginia sister is the gals here tend to be slim and have all their teeth. Methinks that is not a basis for a long term relationship. Eventually it will come back to bite you.

My point is simply this; we all make choices when it comes to relationships. Make a choice that helps you in more ways then just keeping jr happy.[/QUOTE]I already addressed the point you are making again about who you would take to a dinner party but you skipped right over it to make the same point again. Look, you can go ahead and live your life to gain the approval of a culture that is to put it mildly, corrupt and morally deficient by any standards. There are some great people here in Thailand but this culture as a whole is in no position to lecture anyone on lifestyles acceptability. I know I don't have to explain that to anyone.

Lose face concept = ruse (use as a convenience, I mean which culture wants to lose face?)

You use a lot of extreme examples to make your points, I prefer to stay in the middle of the bell and use the norms. Extreme examples exist in any setting but those are not the norm.

I will tell you that after all you wrote, I am still not convince and will not bow or tow the line to gain the approval of anyone. What a burden to bare living your life in such as way to gain someone else's approval? I have my own set of values and morals (yes, I do, even though I am on a sex board) I love myself and my opinion of myself much more than I will ever love theirs.

[QUOTE=Goatscrot; 1539891]I have not really observed girls who are not hookers dressing like hookers.

I would say that even 5 years ago your second paragraph would be accurate, now not so much. The majority of farang + thai relationships now are not hooker and host. Those relationships are painfully obvious and always have been.

Most expats that I know view Thailand a simply a stopover. Very few will choose to remain her for the duration. Their Thai spouse will accompany them to Farang land where things are in fact different. When a person plans to be somewhere long term he / she better for the most part buy into the culture.

Asians are judgmental in a different way than we Westerners. Ask an Asian what makes a beautiful woman and 9 times out of 10 you will get the same answer. Their norms and mores are far more rigid and formed than ours..[/QUOTE]Do well heeled business guys take bargirls to business functions? If they do they shouldn't have gotten their assignment in the first place. Corporate made a bad decision.

The more goatie speaks the more clueless he sounds. He uses the strawman argument. All the farangs he knows. Who are these guys?

Anyways the girls are back. Packed stages but no penises. Will prices cum down? Supply and demand is not in balance-soemthing has to give.

[QUOTE=Goatscrot; 1539896]I specifically pay for sex. I go to an oily, spend an hour and a half do all kinds of things and then leave. I don't want to hear about sick mom, annoyed brother, drunk buffalo. I just want 90 min of full on PSE and then I want to leave. Just like riding a roller coaster only more fun.

The only gal I invest any emotion or effort in is my girlfriend. I have no desire to spend time with any other woman unless it is in the above fashion. Going to an oily is a totally separate experience. It is like comparing playing golf with making a carrot cake.

Milan Kundera said it so well in The Unbearable Lightness of Being. Paraphrased- Lust and love are different if not opposite emotions. Lust extends to countless women, love to only one. Love is expressed in the desire for shared sleep.

I wholeheartedly agree. There is only one woman I want to sleep beside and wake up with. I want to doink lots of 'them.[/QUOTE]If you need to stray maybe your gf isn't the one for you!

[QUOTE=Hiihii; 1540021]Do well heeled business guys take bargirls to business functions? If they do they shouldn't have gotten their assignment in the first place. Corporate made a bad decision.

The more goatie speaks the more clueless he sounds. He uses the strawman argument. All the farangs he knows. Who are these guys?

Anyways the girls are back. Packed stages but no penises. Will prices cum down? Supply and demand is not in balance-soemthing has to give.[/QUOTE]Huh? Really? I know lots of guys with fat expat packages that are dating and living with bar girls. I have a friend with a PHD who was a the head go between for a major pharma and their research docs; married a bar girl. It happens all the time. I never said "all" the farangs I know. In fact, quite the contrary. I know many young dudes here who are dating non-P4P gals and would not even enter a gogo bar.

You need to re-read my posts.

[QUOTE=Hiihii;1540022]If you need to stray maybe your gf isn't the one for you![/QUOTE]Uh, who wants to be monogamous? That is the beauty of living here. If not what's the point?

[QUOTE=Run Mann; 1539950]I already addressed the point you are making again about who you would take to a dinner party but you skipped right over it to make the same point again. Look, you can go ahead and live your life to gain the approval of a culture that is to put it mildly, corrupt and morally deficient by any standards. There are some great people here in Thailand but this culture as a whole is in no position to lecture anyone on lifestyles acceptability. I know I don't have to explain that to anyone.

Lose face concept = ruse (use as a convenience, I mean which culture wants to lose face?)

You use a lot of extreme examples to make your points, I prefer to stay in the middle of the bell and use the norms. Extreme examples exist in any setting but those are not the norm.

I will tell you that after all you wrote, I am still not convince and will not bow or tow the line to gain the approval of anyone. What a burden to bare living your life in such as way to gain someone else's approval? I have my own set of values and morals (yes, I do, even though I am on a sex board) I love myself and my opinion of myself much more than I will ever love theirs.[/QUOTE]Really, you are condemning the attitudes and culture here? Well, it has certainly worked for Thais for some time now. Morally deficient? By whose standards? Yours? The West's? Give me a break. Honestly what are you comparing it to? America? The nation that invades others?

The path of least resistance is the way to travel here. Burden? Quit the contrary; making it easy on oneself is the name of the game.

If you think losing face is a "ruse" then you really are looking at it from an ethnocentric point of view. It is difficult for people to accept that cultural ways differing from their own can be functional. If you are indeed doing business or working in Thailand, it will be very difficult for you if you choose not to play by their rules. If you chose to live in Thailand, you should do your best to try to "fit in" as well as we foreigners can. Learn the language and do your best with the culture. If you are just coming here for P4P or for a meeting then that is something entirely different, and frankly with that limited knowledge you have very little room to comment on the "acceptability" of things here. 14 years is long enough for me to know I will never be Thai, nor will I every understand all the nuances her, but I can do my best to learn all I can, not make waves, and make my own life here as pleasant and stress free as possible and not be an eyesore or be offensive to the people who allow me to stay in their country.