Bangkok Reports

[QUOTE=Western787; 1559668]That's the claim by a 40 year Bangkok expat J West Hardin on his web site:

[url]http://jwesthardin.wordpress.com/2012/02/21/some-fast-facts-about-the-sex-tourism-industry-in-thailand/[/url]

Happened to see this when doing some routine fact checking on the latest sex trafficking claims. What unusual its usually NGO's, not expats, making such wild claims.

(his response posting dated dated March 28, 2012)

"Fair ball Shane. This is not to question the choice of a New York hooker who chooses her profession. The fact is that in Thailand 99% of the prostitutes are not even Thai, they are poor women from the border regions, country side and refugee's who have no choice. There is no 'willing partner' standard applied when one party is threatened with starvation or performing sex for a 'dominant male' who wants to exploit starving or oppressed women because he's too cheap to hire a woman in his own country who may be in a position to make a choice. I have a fellow blogger who writes very specifically on this subject from the perspective of the 'New York Hooker'. She wasn't exactly 'happy' about her choices either. You have to look into the background of women who choose prostitution. It's sad in most cases. Many people aren't aware that the sex trade in Thailand in area's like Phuket and Pattaya are dominated by violent gangsters who exploit and traffic women because of their immigration and economic status. Very sad. The children are often held for ransom in the back alley's of the bars. They have to pay or can't get their kids back. By Thai standards Phuket is the most corrupt state in Thailand. And that's a very low bar when measuring corruption in Thailand. Women who came to work complain of being threatened and coerced with violence into prostitution by police forces among others. Many prostitutes in the sex trade area's of Bangkok are either Issan tribeswomen or Burmese Karen natives running from murder and desperation in their own country. The moral choice for a western man not to entertain the thought of paying for sex with women who 'choose' between starvation, exploitation and being a 'willing partner' is not one I would wish on anyone. So. The next time a prostitute wants a john to buy her a drink. Remember that she's trying to forget what she has to do to feed her family. Not to better enjoy whats about to happen to her."[/QUOTE]He's full of it.

[QUOTE=BionicMan;1559546]BTW, do you think that the BKK sex industry would have a living without the two-week billionaires?[/QUOTE]Who gave the initial impetus to the industry back in the mid-1960s? There's your answer.

[QUOTE=Western787; 1559668]That's the claim by a 40 year Bangkok expat J West Hardin on his web site:

[url]http://jwesthardin.wordpress.com/2012/02/21/some-fast-facts-about-the-sex-tourism-industry-in-thailand/[/url]

Happened to see this when doing some routine fact checking on the latest sex trafficking claims. What unusual its usually NGO's, not expats, making such wild claims.

(his response posting dated dated March 28, 2012)

"Fair ball Shane. This is not to question the choice of a New York hooker who chooses her profession. The fact is that in Thailand 99% of the prostitutes are not even Thai, they are poor women from the border regions, country side and refugee's who have no choice. There is no 'willing partner' standard applied when one party is threatened with starvation or performing sex for a 'dominant male' who wants to exploit starving or oppressed women because he's too cheap to hire a woman in his own country who may be in a position to make a choice. I have a fellow blogger who writes very specifically on this subject from the perspective of the 'New York Hooker'. She wasn't exactly 'happy' about her choices either. You have to look into the background of women who choose prostitution. It's sad in most cases. Many people aren't aware that the sex trade in Thailand in area's like Phuket and Pattaya are dominated by violent gangsters who exploit and traffic women because of their immigration and economic status. Very sad. The children are often held for ransom in the back alley's of the bars. They have to pay or can't get their kids back. By Thai standards Phuket is the most corrupt state in Thailand. And that's a very low bar when measuring corruption in Thailand. Women who came to work complain of being threatened and coerced with violence into prostitution by police forces among others. Many prostitutes in the sex trade area's of Bangkok are either Issan tribeswomen or Burmese Karen natives running from murder and desperation in their own country. The moral choice for a western man not to entertain the thought of paying for sex with women who 'choose' between starvation, exploitation and being a 'willing partner' is not one I would wish on anyone. So. The next time a prostitute wants a john to buy her a drink. Remember that she's trying to forget what she has to do to feed her family. Not to better enjoy whats about to happen to her."[/QUOTE]"Isaan tribeswomen?" Is this guy Hardin guy a complete moron or what?

[QUOTE=Wolvenvacht; 1559589]The tourists and ex-pats use such a small part of the Thai sex industry that it really doesn't matter. Thai and farang operate on different markets. The high-end Thai market is generally closed to us and their low-end does not appeal to farang (if any tourist would be able to find it at all). Most of us go for the tanned Isaan girl, the mainstay of Pattaya, Nana and Soi Cowboy establishments. These are not in high demand by the Thai, as has been reported here many times. It is wrong to see the Thai sex industry as one block and even more wrong to extrapolate our "farang" experiences to the whole of the market.

Walk along the MPs of Sukhumvit Soi 23. Do you see these massage girls call after Thai men? None do. It is not their market.[/QUOTE]Indeed I think that the Thai-only-sex-industry is detached from the farang, be them expats or tourist, cheap Charlie's or two week billionaires. Still I think that without the two week billionaires, in whatever percentage, the expats claiming about other guys ruining the market by what they pay, would not have access to the P4P as it would be limited to Thai only area of the business.

Same as someone said. As in Japan.

[QUOTE=Western787; 1559668]That's the claim by a 40 year Bangkok expat J West Hardin on his web site:

[url]http://jwesthardin.wordpress.com/2012/02/21/some-fast-facts-about-the-sex-tourism-industry-in-thailand/[/url]

Happened to see this when doing some routine fact checking on the latest sex trafficking claims. What unusual its usually NGO's, not expats, making such wild claims.

(his response posting dated dated March 28, 2012)

"Fair ball Shane. This is not to question the choice of a New York hooker who chooses her profession. The fact is that in Thailand 99% of the prostitutes are not even Thai, they are poor women from the border regions, country side and refugee's who have no choice. There is no 'willing partner' standard applied when one party is threatened with starvation or performing sex for a 'dominant male' who wants to exploit starving or oppressed women because he's too cheap to hire a woman in his own country who may be in a position to make a choice. I have a fellow blogger who writes very specifically on this subject from the perspective of the 'New York Hooker'. She wasn't exactly 'happy' about her choices either. You have to look into the background of women who choose prostitution. It's sad in most cases. Many people aren't aware that the sex trade in Thailand in area's like Phuket and Pattaya are dominated by violent gangsters who exploit and traffic women because of their immigration and economic status. Very sad. The children are often held for ransom in the back alley's of the bars. They have to pay or can't get their kids back. By Thai standards Phuket is the most corrupt state in Thailand. And that's a very low bar when measuring corruption in Thailand. Women who came to work complain of being threatened and coerced with violence into prostitution by police forces among others. Many prostitutes in the sex trade area's of Bangkok are either Issan tribeswomen or Burmese Karen natives running from murder and desperation in their own country. The moral choice for a western man not to entertain the thought of paying for sex with women who 'choose' between starvation, exploitation and being a 'willing partner' is not one I would wish on anyone. So. The next time a prostitute wants a john to buy her a drink. Remember that she's trying to forget what she has to do to feed her family. Not to better enjoy whats about to happen to her."[/QUOTE]Think I saw this same guy or probably girl on a different board writing this same nonsense.

That time he / she was in Angeles City and instead of buying sex, he gave his money to charities to fight [url=http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord908][CodeWord908][/url].

By his writings it is obvious this person has been to neither.

Just someone with an agenda.

[QUOTE=BionicMan; 1559549]That is what he reported.

So it looks terms were really set and clear in advance: services and rewards.[/QUOTE]I indeed gave clear terms to the psycho. I am a little surprised the responses on this issue are not focused on the death threats and crazy behavior. Maybe everyone go through this, part of the P4P package?

Looking back, and looking forward I will more thoroughly challenge the comments from the girl when she first mentions running away from round 2. Would have been better if I discovered she had no intent to do round 2 and invited her to leave prior to sleep. Pay more attention to the red flags, address them immediately.

Arrived just Sat noontime from states and met up with Yin (not her real name) at hotel. Originally had booked from bamboo but decided to see what was available via CL. Note. This is first time for me, LOL. Never used on-line sites in all my years.

Exchanged a series of emails prior to meet up, full disclosure on services, prices and multiple pictures. The person that showed up at my door was somewhat a surprise, in a pleasant way. First, not 27 yrs old but 33 (asked for copy of her I'd, took photo just in case of any problems). She looked exactly like her pix, down to tattoo and large nipples. But much more petite than envisioned. And she spoke surprising good English. We had nice chat, showered, solid session. Everything earlier offered was provided. She even got her rocks off twice.

I was tired so she left after 2 hrs and we agreed for her to come back, maybe overnight another time. I jokingly asked her if she wouldn't mind sharing her contacts with others?"Sure, no problem". She is creating website so will post later and it includes pricing, etc. As usual, YMMV.

[QUOTE=BushWhack; 1559901]I indeed gave clear terms to the psycho. I am a little surprised the responses on this issue are not focused on the death threats and crazy behavior. Maybe everyone go through this, part of the P4P package?

Looking back, and looking forward I will more thoroughly challenge the comments from the girl when she first mentions running away from round 2. Would have been better if I discovered she had no intent to do round 2 and invited her to leave prior to sleep. Pay more attention to the red flags, address them immediately.[/QUOTE]Seems the only thing many of them hear is the price agreed upon. They expect that money whether they deliver the agreed upon service or not and I am just not willing to put up with that. It is one reason I only hit oilies these days. I expect GFE or PSE out of every encounter. On the rare occasion I take a non-oily girl I make it known to them that I expect to have sex like in a "sex movie" or like they are with their boyfriend. All agree, but I found very few that actually deliver these days.

[QUOTE=Goatscrot;1559938]They expect that money whether they deliver the agreed upon service or not and I am just not willing to put up with that. It is one reason I only hit oilies these days.[/QUOTE]I came to this same conclusion some time ago. My experience with gogo and bar girls, and FLs is that they are a crap shoot. Performance runs from poor to good. And not very often the later. Some of the ladies with whom I've had the best "chemistry" turned out to be among the worst performers. With the oilies the performance has run from at least average to excellent. I've also had good experience with the escorts. The ones I've been with run from good to excellent. Of course considering the cost I expect at least good service. I think the MP girls offer the best quality for the price. I've had some great times with the good MP girls on overnight outcalls. I'm particular ill-disposed towards the gogo girls. Between the overpriced lousy drinks, lady drinks, BF and fee for the lady, they are one of the worst deals in town. I'd rather have a good session with an MP and then go somewhere nice for a drink. I now only go to the gogos to ogle at the naked (or nearly so) ladies, and of course enjoy the excellent music. LOL

[QUOTE=Paul Kausch;1559950]I came to this same conclusion some time ago. My experience with gogo and bar girls, and FLs is that they are a crap shoot. Performance runs from poor to good. And not very often the later. Some of the ladies with whom I've had the best "chemistry" turned out to be among the worst performers. With the oilies the performance has run from at least average to excellent. I've also had good experience with the escorts. The ones I've been with run from good to excellent. Of course considering the cost I expect at least good service. I think the MP girls offer the best quality for the price. I've had some great times with the good MP girls on overnight outcalls. I'm particular ill-disposed towards the gogo girls. Between the overpriced lousy drinks, lady drinks, BF and fee for the lady, they are one of the worst deals in town. I'd rather have a good session with an MP and then go somewhere nice for a drink. I now only go to the gogos to ogle at the naked (or nearly so) ladies, and of course enjoy the excellent music. LOL[/QUOTE]I am the same way with the go go's. I use them as foreplay. When I go, I go when it's happy hour or drink specials. I don't indulge in lady drinks.

I have numbers of ladys in my phone I know give good service that I call upon. Every now and then I add a new one.

If you insist on having sex with the most beautiful girl in LOS, you will always be rolling the dice on service and paying the high prices for it. That is why I hang at the cheap charlie bars for most of my drinking and call a lady when I need it.

[QUOTE=Goatscrot;1559938]Seems the only thing many of them hear is the price agreed upon. They expect that money whether they deliver the agreed upon service or not and I am just not willing to put up with that. It is one reason I only hit oilies these days. I expect GFE or PSE out of every encounter. On the rare occasion I take a non-oily girl I make it known to them that I expect to have sex like in a "sex movie" or like they are with their boyfriend. All agree, but I found very few that actually deliver these days.[/QUOTE]I'll have to agree with you and Paul on the gogo bar girls. I've had some terrible experiences. If I find a good performer I try to hold on to her. If she's good the first time it only gets better. But as much of a pain in the ass they are sometimes I feel like a moth and a bright light.

I've also learned to say "get out." And I don't give them a penny. I booted two in the Phils. We were supposed to do a threesome and everything was a go at the bar. Back in my room they get naked, I get in bed, the one starts blowing me while the other is rubbing my nuts. I motion for the other one and she's reluctant, I am firm and she agrees, runs to the bathroom wets a washcloth and comes back. She wants to clean off my dick because her friend was just blowing me. Ohh this is really going to work. NOT! I stand up, put my pants back on and point to the door. Back out to Burgos and before I could get into a bar a little street cutie grabs me. Back to the room and had a great time.

Best tattoo ever. HA!

So where does the Thai men do their mongering? Where is the upscale market? If the Thai men don't like the Isaan ladies what type of girls do they pick?

/Kirsia.

[QUOTE=Wolvenvacht; 1559589]The tourists and ex-pats use such a small part of the Thai sex industry that it really doesn't matter. Thai and farang operate on different markets. The high-end Thai market is generally closed to us and their low-end does not appeal to farang (if any tourist would be able to find it at all). Most of us go for the tanned Isaan girl, the mainstay of Pattaya, Nana and Soi Cowboy establishments. These are not in high demand by the Thai, as has been reported here many times. It is wrong to see the Thai sex industry as one block and even more wrong to extrapolate our "farang" experiences to the whole of the market.

Walk along the MPs of Sukhumvit Soi 23. Do you see these massage girls call after Thai men? None do. It is not their market.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=Paul Kausch;1559950]Performance runs from poor to good. And not very often the later. Some of the ladies with whom I've had the best "chemistry" turned out to be among the worst performers. With the oilies the performance has run from at least average to excellent.[/QUOTE]Can't agree with this one. A lady is of course limited by her abilities regardless of chemistry, but with good chemistry I generally get a better performance, providing she is not drunk or has some other problem. Is not likely to get a great GFE performance from a girl that doesn't like you. If you are talking PSE, that could be different.

[QUOTE]I think the MP girls offer the best quality for the price. I've had some great times with the good MP girls on overnight outcalls. I'm particular ill-disposed towards the gogo girls. Between the overpriced lousy drinks, lady drinks, BF and fee for the lady, they are one of the worst deals in town. I'd rather have a good session with an MP and then go somewhere nice for a drink. I now only go to the gogos to ogle at the naked (or nearly so) ladies, and of course enjoy the excellent music. LOL[/QUOTE]MP girls are hit and miss just the same. There are some superstars and there are some very ordinary girls. You have far less opportunity to check the chemistry and make sure you got the right one. This makes it more of a crap shoot.

Why complain that a bargirl ends up costing more when you are prepared to pay for escorts. I happen to a couple of excellent bargirls for non-PSE rather GFE style. Also there are several girls at Suzi Wong that are enjoyable in a 2 girl setup. Right now my list of regular MP girls has got fairly short. This is probably an anomaly with several disappearing in the same period. Its hard to find really great MP girls whose looks are good enough for me.

The bar has several advantages for me when considering new girls. 1. Large set of girls to select from. I try to overcome this at MPs by visiting several near each other to try to find a girl that appeals. 2. I get to see the girls naked. No surprises. I can make sure the bottom is perfection, nice waist, acceptable tits. 3. I get plenty of time to check chemistry with girls and find out if they are really a nice fun girl or a bad girl or just money oriented.

Overall its just a case of collecting girls that have something special that attracts me to come back. No need to rule out bargirls as a source. Some girls with something special exist.

I do agree that in Crazy House bar, its mostly ogle, which gets boring quite quickly. Its tricky to find the right girl there. I have decided on May who has a super body, but due to circumstances of me having to leave, or having already had a session, or her being missing, or already with a customer, I did not get a chance yet.

[QUOTE=Western787; 1559668]That's the claim by a 40 year Bangkok expat J West Hardin on his web site:

[url]http://jwesthardin.wordpress.com/2012/02/21/some-fast-facts-about-the-sex-tourism-industry-in-thailand/[/url]

(his response posting dated dated March 28, 2012)

". The fact is that in Thailand 99% of the prostitutes are not even Thai,."[/QUOTE]I could quote on this forum someone else's religious crap-trap from somewhere else, that was not my own experience, nor even an opinion I agreed with. However what would be the point?

On a further silly note, one could say that many are not central Thai and may speak a dialect.

[QUOTE=Syzygies;1559993]Can't agree with this one.[/QUOTE]Then you and I have had very different experiences.

I enjoy a PSE and a GFE. I don't swim against the current. If I don't know the lady, I figure out as quickly as possible which way she is more inclined, and I go that way. If I'm in the mood for a PSE and end up with a girl who seems more GFE I may test how far she's willing to go; but I won't force anything on her. Frankly, a lady doesn't even have to have a lot of experience for me to have fun with her. I know how to coax good sex out of a willing but inexperienced woman. Fiona, who I reported on in January is a good example. There's an old saying,"There is no such thing as a frigid woman, just a clumsy man."

Over many years I've never had a session with an MP girl I would describe as below average. My approach has always been to pick girls whose reputation I know something about or to read their faces and body language to determine which girls are interested in going with me. I find the same skills I used as a young man to select which girls to target for picking up in the bars come in handy. Sometimes the lady appears to be eager but turns out to be only average. But often enough I'm able to make a good choice.

I've had good sex with gogo bar girls with whom I had good chemistry with in the bar. I suspect these are girls who are looking for one guy that night and when I prove to be fun, they take their time and have fun with me. I've also BFed girls who were a lot of fun and showed great promise in the bar only to have them become very mechanical and rushed when the sex started. This is what I consider bad sex. I actually think these are the smarter ladies; they read ISG; get a kick out of the "chemistry" nonsense some guys write about ;) and figure out that is a good way to hook more customers. They're motivated to sell, but not to perform. Their goal is maximum volume in minimal time. (While the MP girls are with you for a set amount of time.) The gogo girls work just like the typical prostitute here in the USA. Experienced strippers in clubs in the USA are also very skilled at this. They're good at coming on to you on the floor; and they may give you a great lap dance, but that is just to get you into a private room for the half hour that lasts 15 minutes. Then they're done with you and ready to resume their hunt. They've got to make enough to pay the dancer's fee to the club and enough extra for themselves.

I think the gogo girls and MP girls are totally different creatures. I know good escort agencies don't want to hire girls who have worked in gogo bars or MPs. Ladies gravitate to the segments of the P4P industry they're best suited to.

I've also had real girlfriends who were great fun but not great fucks. And as I've mentioned several times, my ex and I reached the point were we constantly fought, but still had great sex.