Tallinn

Dusty bin,

I am half-italian and, frankly, I think you can keep your suggestions for yourself.

I think that any of us, expatriate or long-term living in a foreing country, is able to write a list of suggestions for people new to the scene.

And this applies to any "newbie", no matter where they come from: Germiany, Usa, England or Tonga Islands.

I am living in Thailand and I could write a book about "how middle aged english man are screwed by young and cute thai girls".

But there is no point in semi-racist remarks like yours.

I don't want to defend Italians but I find this kind of humour a little bit silly.

I hope you don't take this post in the worng way.

Regards,

Alejandro

I think Dusty Bin's analysis is closest to what I personally saw.

While it is too extreme to say that there are skinheads rampaging down the streets of Estonia beating up anybody of a darker complexion, it is also too extreme to say that they would ignore such people and concentrate on scandinavian tourists. I think it would be more like they would beat up a black person, but if none were around they would find the nearest finnish guy and beat him up. Or Italian. Or all of them.

Of course I'm sure there are some, but I personally saw none, and even forgetting them, I didn't personally feel any bad or unfriendly looks from people, just slightly bemused or curious. I think if the circumstances were right for lots of skinhead groups to appear, you would also feel unfriendliness from a lot of "normal" people, the skinheads being an extreme manifestation of the dislike most people would have. However most Estonian people in my opinion were friendly. If there are some extremist groups I feel it would be the exception not the rule.

Anyway, I will say this, and I think any visible minority member who has spent his whole life in a European country would agree with me, you develop a kind of "6th sense" a kind of early warning system when you go anywhere. Without really consciously thinking about it, you look to see the kind of looks or the kind of silences that greet you. You are always that little bit extra aware, especially when you go into a place you have never been or you are not that familiar with. The one good thing about extremist racists is that they are not such good actors, you can pretty much tell within a couple of seconds of looking at the hostility in their eyes that it's a good time to leave. So, even if there are such dangers in Estonia, I doubt I or many other minority posters would just casually stroll in without thinking or keeping an eye out and say something foolish like, "Hey guys! Where de white women at?"

Of course, nobody can guarantee a 100 % safety but with common sense you can reduce the chances of something bad happening to a minimum.

Actually, it was not humour and there is no need to defend the indefensible.

I referred to Italians because it was they who were exemplars of the points I noted, not Britons, Indians, Germans or French...

There is a reason for this. There are now direct flights from Italy for about 120Euro. This is pretty cheap and the result is that Fabrizio, Antonio and the boyz are making the trip over. This evening, most had gone home; there were noticably fewer guys with fuzzy chops wandering around in packs.

Loads of English guys go to Thailand specifically to be screwed by Thai girls. There is a large industry devoted to the care and maintenance of guys who want commercial sex. In Tallinn, there is not, but many guys, but particularly noticably, this summer, Italian guys who think all Estonian women are on the game and will go all round heeled for a poorly groomed Italian with no money...
I doubt that in Thailand there are many young Britons walking the street in normal downtown areas, approaching girls and doing the same in places where ordinary people go for a night out with their friends...

I think that other posters who have been in Tallinn in recent weeks will have seem the same as I.

I did not take your post the wrong way, I understood exactly what you were trying to say, but if you are familiar with the 'style' of your working class countrymen, you will understand the points I was making. The Italians are, in this respect, very different to the Britons, who almost universally have plenty of money and a somewhat better set of manners. Poor Finns usually travel with their wives to buy beer and food, Germans and Spanish usually with families.
I saw three of the most gorgeous girls last night. It turned out that they were with three Britons over for the weekend. When I saw them together I could understand how the guys had done so well. The Britons were as well dressed as their girls, they behaved well with them and to make the final seal on the deal, it was obvious that some time had been spent, in the afternoon, with the three beauties, doing some shopping. They made a very attractive group, a pleasure to see and I am certain that all six had a very pleasant time.
There is a difference.

Dusty Bin,

I just answer to a couple of sentences you wrote in your message.
You wrote: "I doubt that in Thailand there are many young Britons walking the street in normal downtown areas, approaching girls and doing the same in places where ordinary people go for a night out with their friends...".

I saw exactly the same scenes you described in Tallin. But performed by young, drunk britons.

By the way now I am in Italy on holiday and I spent the last week in Palma de Majorca. Overthere britons are not well known for there good manners.

Again you wrote: "The Italians are, in this respect, very different to the Britons, who almost universally have plenty of money and a somewhat better set of manners".

This is completely stupid. Sorry but how can you judge a people just on what you saw in a small city in Estonia? This is a complete non-sense. Moreover I don't know how many people would agree that Britons have a better set of manners of Italians.

And when you wrote that the Britons were well dressed onestly you made me smile as everybody know that Italy is the land of fashion and Italians are among the best dressed people in the world.
I don't want to start a verbal fight but I think that it is impossible to make general statement about a whole people just because you saw the behaviour of a group o Italians on holiday in tallin. I would never judge all the Britons basing on the behaviour of the infamous football hooligans. And you ask me if i am familiar with working class italian people. Yes I am. And I think that you are familiar enough with english working class to know that its behaviour would not be so different in the same situation.

What I am tring to tell you is that in every western-rich-industrialized country you have working class, middel class and upper class and their behaviour are more or less the same.

So painting the all the Britons as Lords and all Italians as poor uneducated countrymen is completely wrong and shows a little knowledge of my country as well as a little bit of racism.

Regards,

Alejandro

[blue]Hi,

This is just a suggestion, so please don't take it the wrong way.

I appreciate the details in your report, but I know from experience that a lot of people find it easier to read a report if the paragraphs are separated by a single blank line.

I know how this happens: You're banging away at the keyboard, putting your thoughts into the report as fast as you can write them. However, if you could hit the return key TWICE at the end of each paragraph, your report would be much easier to read, which would certainly be appreciated by your fellow Forum Members.

Thanks,

[i]Jackson[/i][/blue]

Dusty Bin.
Im totally agree with you. I've been to Tallinn a lot of times, twice the 8 last weeks, and i have seen the same as you about the Italians. And no, Alejandro66, he did not say semi-racist remarks. He just said the truth - something everyone in Tallinn can see, if they want.
This is something i see from miniority-men also (in general). No affense, Art68, but in general i notice a bit different view and attitude towards blond nordic woman from many minitory men, than we Nordic men do. All this is destroying the friendliness the estoinan girls are known for. In a couple of years from now, friendly Tallinn has become just the same as the cities in their western neigbourcountries after years with (to much) immigration.

But lets start discuss woman again, boys! This is after all a mongers site. I will be in Tallinn (for the last time) from Thursday this week to Monday next week – if someone want a beer. PM me.

If you want to know what the scene is in Tallinn and why it may have been irreparably spoiled, read the news. And this is only part of the problem:

Estonian Coffers Bulge from Booze-Cruising Finns
Aug 6, 1:04 pm ET

TALLINN (Reuters) - A rush of thirsty Finns making the short trip across to neighboring Estonia to stock up on cheap booze and beer have boosted state coffers in the small Baltic EU newcomer, the Finance Ministry said on Thursday.

Revenues from alcohol taxes rose more than 40 percent in June from the same period last year to 162 million kroons ($12.49 million) as Finns booze-cruised to the ex-Soviet state, and early estimates suggest a similar rise for July.

Finance Minister Taavi Veskimagi told Reuters EU entry had made it easier to travel to and from Estonia.

"But it's not all about alcohol," he said, adding that he hoped tourists would stay longer in the country and discover more of what Estonia has to offer.

Finnish "Vodka tourists" have long been a fixture of Estonia's capital Tallinn despite previous limitations on how much they could bring back.

But now they can take back as much booze and brew as they can carry after the small country of 1.4 million people joined the European Union in May.

Estonia's Finance Ministry plans to raise the tax on strong liquor by 20 percent from next year, but Estonian prices on alcohol will still remain far below Finnish levels.

A bottle of Estonian vodka currently cost around 5 to 6 euros ($6 to $7) compared with just above 16 euros in Finland even after Finnish authorities slashed alcohol taxes March in fear of the so-called "Vodka rallies" spiraling out of control after EU enlargement.

HRCHRISTER,

Yes, let's get back to the main topic. I have noted your points and I think I see what kind of opinions you hold. I'm not entirely sure this is the place to voice them, based on a one-sentence comment I made in my report, but of course editorial decisons are best left to Jackson. I don't think I will be requiring any more "advice" from you in future, thanks very much anyway. Let's leave it there.

DUSTY BIN: In all fairness , I think so far Tallinn has been lucky with Brits. Its starting to get a name here now - tonight on BBC 2's Newsnight they had an entire segment on Tallinn, showing some of the stag parties who are headed over, and they were basically probing the question of making money on one hand versus the effects of this kind of tourism on the city. I'm kind of gloomy about this, just thinking that 12 months ago I headed over to a place hardly anyone here had heard about and now its becoming a by-word for drunkenness and bad behaviour. I just hope the police nip any stupidity in the bud. The thing is, the Brits who are coming over at the moment are a little bit more resourceful, they've done some research, they had to find the one airline that flies directly from the UK to Tallinn - all that will change once you get some low cost airline flying there and travel agencies really start pushing Estonia - unfortunately then Tallinn will see the really low-rent Brits. I hope I'm wrong, I really don't want to see it become a Baltic version of Benidorm or Magaluf, but I don't think I am.

Anyway, I think I'm headed over for the August Bank Holiday with a bunch of friends who want to see it before it becomes spoiled. It still hasn't completely lost its charm for me.

Alejandro-
the Britons who come to Tallinn are generally speaking quite well off. This is a result of ther geographic origin. Usually they come from the London area, the richest in the UK, this is because the flights leave from Gatwick and so unless you are local, the times make a quick weekend visit impractical. On a BBC Newsnight programe last night, a British group were interviewed, they were planning to spend, EACH about 1000Euro, on top of their accommodation and travel. THis is a lot of money and very few other groups have this kind of spending power.
I know, from my connections that this is far from uncommon, they spend a lot of money. The Italians, in contrast do not have this kind of money, or if they do, are happy to hide it.

This does not mean that all Britons are wealthy, although those who travel tend to spend a lot, but many tourists are like the typical Italian Tallinn visitor, quite poor. They have yet to arrive in Tallinn because of the cost.

ART68
A thought to remember: Stag trips to Tallinn have become something of a 'hot-button' in both the UK and Estonia (and possibly Italy), but during 2003 there were less than 30,000 British visitors to Tallinn in the whole year. There are more Finns on any given weekend, than Britons in a year. Tour companies like to see the guys wearing the same T -shirts or polo shirts, it helps to identify them. This is good becasue they can be easily identified if there is a problem and frankly there are very few problems. I am associated with a firm that is in the stag trip field, although you will not have heard the name; to the best of my recollection, there was last year, one arrest, of one Briton and he went off home with a caution.

Essentially, this is a storm in a tea cup. Tallinn is learning to accommodate groups of young lads who, unlike Finns, do not get drunk and go to sleep. It is easier to accommodate those with money than those without. It will not take long for girls to recognise who are 'good company' and who are not. Sadly, they will tend to generalise, that is bad for all of us who live in Tallinn, but worst for those whose countrymen do not make good company.

There is actually very little bad behaviour, from any national group. My comments about the Italians were more about social ineptitide than bad behaviour. One does not feel threatened by their presence, other than wanting to call the fashion police! ;)

Tallinn and Estonia as a whole are a delight.

So, back on topic...
When you travel, spend some money, be nice and help the girls to have a good time. After all, how many of them actually WANT to fuck you for money? If you are sensible, I am sure that the supply of round heeled lovelies will expand to meet the demand.

Hi dusty,

It seems you do not miss any oppurtunity to throw shit on Italians.

You told what you think about them so many times. Is a kind of paranoid persecution, you are scared to lose power in your "pick-up arena" or simply some Italians has fucked your girlfriend?

I still remember the time I was one Havana beach with two girls. 4 Italians guys who were there near us had been eyeing one chica had the nerve to call her and ask for her number. Talk about a lack of respect !
I hate to sterotype people but generally speaking my experiences with Italians have not that positive.
Just my 2 cents.

Dusty Bin,

i understand your point of view. I hope you will meet soon some nice, well educated, well-off and well dressed italian people.

I can tell you that it is very easy.

Anyway I appreciated the calm and kindless in your posts.

I am quite convinced now that there isn't any racist remark in your posts.

Now go back to the topic: girls!

Downunder,

I guess that your experience with Italians has been made outside Italy.

Just try to expand your views.

It may be that staying downunder bring all your blood far from your brain...

Just a joke, of course.

I spent 2 years working in Australia (Perh, WA) and, generally speaking, my experience with australian people was wonderful.
Alejandro

ok my turn

Italians i think as a general population are extreamly nice and friendly.

I will admit that i have seen some italians in rome go from on american/english/german girl after another tring to pick them up. This was very strange to me and i maybe even though it was rude. But i tell you what i never saw them leave empty handed. I dont think they are better looking than the others in the bar but the group of english guy I saw tring to blow there drinks through a straw at a italian did not impress to many women. So in the end italian men may be a bit forward and even rude when it comes to picking up girls but like they say if you dont ask the answer is always no, but if you ask enough then someone will say yes.

So i must also say that not all italians are like this. the same as i hope not all english men are hooligans.

wow who knew that flamming could be so much fun

Cassius-
If I wanted to act as you suggest I do, I think I could find a better forum in which to perform.

I also think that you have not been reading very far or very long, or you simply could not have written as you did. I have made a single post with two follow ups that adressed discussion points from that post.

Most Italians I know and have met are just fine. I lived with one for a while and when he finally learned that his mummy was not going to wash his clothes any more, he was great. They are usually polite and good company. I am happy to have an Italian friend here in Tallinn. The guys to whom I referred displayed the traits I mentioned. Others have commented and explained why it is so. I learned something.

Do I assume that you are an Italian with a newly found complex?
Come vist and change our perceptions!

Jackson

I suggest a new topic: Europe / Estonia / Tallinn / Italian Men
Thanks

so why dont some of these italians write about there experiences here - this forum is trip reports and action....