Kyiv

[QUOTE=Ash1001]Thanks for that Doc.

By the way, isn't the passing of 112 something to shed at least a small tear over? I shudder to think that ALL the freebies I have pulled in Kiev originated in 112.

I'd be keen to expand my range now. Well actually I have to :)[/QUOTE]

Well Cruiser has the inside skinny on 112... sounds like it's coming back. I hope new and improved, because if memory serves, I only ever had a good time in 112 once... and that time I brought my own babe. I enjoyed Shooters more.

So since you've scored freebies from there, you are way ahead of me on that one! :)

But Cruiser and I are biased, we've been to 111 and in it's heyday 111 was quite simply the greatest single place on the planet in the history on mankind, bar none. So for us any 112, 113 or 114 will always be an abomination.

I'm sure it works for some people, but it never worked for me.

But yeah, try some other places.

My favorite was Kaif, but sounds like it's also remonting at this time.

Quite frankly, I'm out of the loop when it comes to Kiev clubs.

Kaif had/has a great layout and the crowd was a good mix too.

My favorite club so far in Kiev was the old Arena, I have a lot of good memories there.

I went to Decadance for the first time two weeks ago. I was complete amazed by what a crap hole that club is.

The is a new club opposite Arena in Manadrin Plaza on the 7th floor called Burgundy, I think. It's supposed to be the latest and greatest Kiev club.

111 was old school Kiev, I think that is why we miss it so much. Girls used to go there looking to get picked up by foreign men.

I thought PaTiPa was going to be a good place to hang. But it attracts too many candy kids.

112 would be okay if the DJ didn't keep the music volume at 11.

I never felt the love at Shooters even thought the first and only time I was there a girl from Moscow picked me up - I'm such a sl ut.

[QUOTE=Cruiser D]I heard Kaif was closed for renovations.

Saxon is currently being heavily promoted in the center.

Ash, 112 isn't closed for good. Just for renovations.[/QUOTE]112 was closed 2 weeks ago who knows when will be reopened? Thanks for the information

[QUOTE=Cruiser D]111 was old school Kiev, I think that is why we miss it so much. Girls used to go there looking to get picked up by foreign men[/QUOTE]

I remember 111 from my very first visit to Kiev in 2004. I almost didn't go to Ukraine at all as I had been warned it was a very dangerous country and not to visit it under any circumstances :)

Yes, it (111) was amazing, and I got hopelessly confused as various teenage hotties (freebie, P4P, whatever - you couldn't tell the difference) vied for my attention. I did my bit by holding onto them so they wouldn't fly off the revolving bar. Most gentlemanly, I thought.

But I'm trying to work out why the ethos in Kiev has changed so much. Nowadays you have to work REALLY hard in a club to click with a girl and get her interested. Plenty are not interested in talking or dancing or even drinking with you. A far cry from 2 years ago when a $10 bottle of Shampanskoye did the trick.

The average wage has gone up a bit - from say $200 to $500 for an office job - but even if they (or their BFs) are getting the higher rate it is still way below what you need for a 'flash' lifestyle. Unless they're aiming for oligarchs now and think Westerners are a poor second choice.

Are Kiev girls really so pissed off with foreigners that they don't even want to spend our money? Or have they been afflicted with that dreadful Western disease of wanting a guy their own age? Pah.

[QUOTE=Ash1001]Are Kiev girls really so pissed off with foreigners that they don't even want to spend our money?[/QUOTE]

It could be a symptom of a poor country's disease: in Brazil, Rio in particular, a good girl won't want to be seen with a foreigner, at least in public; and in Thailand it's even worse: a girl seen with a foreign man (farang) is stigmatized and effectively becomes a social outcast.

Well, things can't be that bad in Kiev of course. I was in Odessa last summer and while there were a lot of foreigners I didn't get the impression the girls would try to avoid being seen with them.

I am Russian and speak both languages very well. This helped me a lot in Odessa, most girls were curios, and I felt very welcomed. So nothing wrong being a western man.

I think that now foreign men are no longer a novelty, many girls feel the cultural gap is just too much of an obstacle. Many told me "the mentality is not same" or "nothing to talk about", etc. This is also true of immigrant communities in the US: Persians hang out and marry Persians, and same goes for Latinos, Russians, even the American-born ones. There are conflicting opinions on this board regarding whether or not it’s advantageous to learn and try to speak Russian, and I don’t see how it would hurt one.

In reality, are there really that many foreigners in Kiev? Based on what I see on this board there are only a handful active member that report regularly. I might have a trip coming up in November, how are Novembers in Kiev vs summer, is the party on or does the cold weather spoils all the fun?

Last summer I traveled again to Kiev and for this trip I tried to book and apartment in Internet; the result was negative due to delayed replies, language problems and the deposit request (I don’t pay these deposits in other countries where I use to travel and I don’t accept that in Kiev I have to do this).

After several emails with Gia and offers in their Web Site of EUR 80 they answered me not free this one in this category but they have one for EUR 100 when I request more information they requested a new price of EUR 120 and when I arrived to Kiev they offer me one for EUR 150 and of course I declined.

For me was not a serious agency and wonder if other member have these bad experiences with Gia or other apartments agencies there and maybe a recommendation of a serious agency but of course without payment in advance for a deposit only looking a nice picture in internet

Thanks for your advices because I plan my next trip there soon and still looking for a serious agency in Kiev

[QUOTE=Ash1001]I remember 111 from my very first visit to Kiev in 2004. I almost didn't go to Ukraine at all as I had been warned it was a very dangerous country and not to visit it under any circumstances :)

Yes, it (111) was amazing, and I got hopelessly confused as various teenage hotties (freebie, P4P, whatever - you couldn't tell the difference) vied for my attention. I did my bit by holding onto them so they wouldn't fly off the revolving bar. Most gentlemanly, I thought.

But I'm trying to work out why the ethos in Kiev has changed so much. Nowadays you have to work REALLY hard in a club to click with a girl and get her interested. Plenty are not interested in talking or dancing or even drinking with you. A far cry from 2 years ago when a $10 bottle of Shampanskoye did the trick.

The average wage has gone up a bit - from say $200 to $500 for an office job - but even if they (or their BFs) are getting the higher rate it is still way below what you need for a 'flash' lifestyle. Unless they're aiming for oligarchs now and think Westerners are a poor second choice.

Are Kiev girls really so pissed off with foreigners that they don't even want to spend our money? Or have they been afflicted with that dreadful Western disease of wanting a guy their own age? Pah.[/QUOTE]

Actually I read a report that made sense. There stood that the hidden economy in Ukraine is estimated to be about 150% of the official one. This means that under normal circumstances the average wages in Ukraine should be at 500-600$ and in Kiev 800-1000$ per month. The reason this does not happen is because the rich people get 75% of the whole income, that is the one coming from shadow economy activities and the rest gets only 25%, while in western countries salaried people get approximately 60% of the whole income. This means there is a lot more inequality in income distribution in ukraine than in the West and this in my opinion explains girls' attitude in a certain degree. Because now the girls can easily find a sponsor who can support them since the rich men are now more and more importantly have more money than before. So they do not prefer foreigners like in the past when the foreigners were the almost exclusive way to get extra income, presents etc.

So due to income inequality one can overestimate his possible attractivity in Ukraine because he does not estimate well the number of the rich and their property cause he was born in the West nd thus he draws the conclusion that if the average wage is so low, the rich cannot be extremely rich and their number is less than it actually is. This would happen in a western country if the salary was so low. But not in Ukraine or Russia.

The whole situdation can be very embarassing. The advantage of Ukraine over other non-FSU EE countries in the past was that you could have many girls who would shag in the mere anticipation of a present or only for the joy of the moment. This is no longer the case since these girls prefer rich Ukrainians and Russians who are now in abudance.

So the possibilities which remain are 1)sponsoring, 2)relationship, 3)marriage cause in ukrainian culture there are no fuckbodies like in other non-FSU EE countries. In the past for every girlfriend in relationship you got 5-10 others who had sex after some dinner or just in anticiapation of a gentleman behaviour. Now these girls are lost and the only possibility is the relationship with whatever it brings.

I'll be in Kiev this week end.

Cruiser D, are you up for a spot of high(ish) rolling in Tsar club or Burgundy? I could do with some expert guidance.

Anyone else?

Sean, the best time to be in Kiev girl wise is when the students are in town, i.e. Feb-Jun, Sep-Nov. High Summer is very slow, and I'd avoid the whole of December and January as everyone's in Christmas mode and just wants to stick with the people they already know. However this time can be good for P4P, for obvious reasons :)

[QUOTE=Ash1001]I remember 111 from my very first visit to Kiev in 2004. I almost didn't go to Ukraine at all as I had been warned it was a very dangerous country and not to visit it under any circumstances

Yes, it (111) was amazing, and I got hopelessly confused as various teenage hotties (freebie, P4P, whatever. You couldn't tell the difference) vied for my attention. I did my bit by holding onto them so they wouldn't fly off the revolving bar. Most gentlemanly, I thought.

But I'm trying to work out why the ethos in Kiev has changed so much. Nowadays you have to work REALLY hard in a club to click with a girl and get her interested. Plenty are not interested in talking or dancing or even drinking with you. A far cry from 2 years ago when a $10 bottle of Shampanskoye did the trick.

The average wage has gone up a bit. From say $200 to $500 for an office job. But even if they (or their BFs) are getting the higher rate it is still way below what you need for a 'flash' lifestyle. Unless they're aiming for oligarchs now and think Westerners are a poor second choice.

Are Kiev girls really so pissed off with foreigners that they don't even want to spend our money? Or have they been afflicted with that dreadful Western disease of wanting a guy their own age? Pah. [/QUOTE]I think one should not underestimate the hidden economy. Based on recent survey it is supported that 150% of ukrainian economy remains hidden. This means that the average wage should be about 500-600$ in the country and not 250$ as it is now. In Kiev it should be 800-1000$. Since most money from shadow activities go to the rich, such an ectent of hidden econmy means that the distribution of incomes in Ukraine varies vastly compared to the normal in western countries. In the latter the workforce gets 60% of the whole income, while in Ukraine it is estimated that only 25% goes to the salaried people and 75% remains for the rich. This leads to a certain accumulation of money and power which influences the attitude of ukrainian girls.

So a western man will likely overestimate his attractiveness when he sees that the average wage in Kiev is 400-500$ because he wrongly supposes due to his western experience that the number and property of rich cannot be that high. In his mind 400-500$ per month for the average brings about an amount of wealth that is underestimating since the rich in Ukraine get 75% of the whole income produced and not just 40% as in western cuntries. Average salary represents 25% of income distribution and not 60% as in western countries. Which means that there are a lot of attractive ukrainian rich who can afford a lot of girls. The westerener seems not attractive anymore compared to these high income counterparts and girls' demands get higher.

In the past the advantage of Ukraine was that one could have girls who joined him just for the fun of the moment or for anticipation for a future reward. Noe these girls are lost for foreigners. You can have either a 1)relationship, 2)sponsoring or 3)marriage. There is no other possibility since in ukrainian culture there are no fuckbodies unlike in other non-FSU EE countries.

In the past you could have for everyone girl in relationship 5-10 girls getting shugged in one night stands just in anticipation for gentleman behaviour. Now the same girls ask straight for expensive presents or sponsoring or are not interested at all in foreigners. The number of girls interested in long term relationship with foreigners has declined according to rise of wages. But the availability of easy to pick up girls in clubs for one night stands has almost vanished.

[size=-2][b][u]EDITOR'S NOTE[/u]:[/b] [blue]I certainly hope that the author or somebody else will post a link to this report in the Reports of Distinction thread. Please [url=http://www.internationalsexguide.info/forum/announcement-reportsofdistinction.php?]Click Here[/url] for more information.[/blue][/size]

I found a nice girl for 700 USD/week in kiev.

How can I pay her? All in once at the first day or half on Monday and half on Thursday or day by day? She could answer "all now or nothing" or "day by day is 300 USD per day (means 2100 USD/week)"

I want she will have a full visit about her health and she replied it costs about 240 USD. Is that a good idea or just a waste of money?

She said we can be friends and customer/prostitute: can I believe her? I think this is the prostitute's trick: "you are my friend so you can't cum in my throat and put two hands in my ass hole";.)

Thank you for help.

Hecker, you left out one very important thing. What you said generally applies to the 50+ set.

Sure in the dark days of the post Soviet collapse girls were more desperate and willing to spend time with 50+ sex tourist in deluded hopes of a possible better life. But as you pointed out the older sex tourist are getting squeezed out by richer (and willing to spend) Russian and Ukrainians. And with the easing of visa restrictions there are also a lot of younger sex tourist to choose from - hope you got it while it was good. But the screw should turn again soon.

Ash, I'm not in Kiev right now. Besides when I go out to a club and I'm looking to spend a few hundred dollars I generally bring 2-3 girls with me. ;)

Kirk, call the Enterprise and have them beam you out.

I'm in kiev right now. Will be for awhile. Some thoughts:

1) River Palace: Went there one night (had been also a long time ago) - great service, reasonable drinks, good food, hot - but way overpriced - girls. And some of the rudest girls you'll meet in Ukraine (I actually got a bit drunk, and gave a few of them a tongue lashing at their behavior). If you're in town for a very short period, want a 100% chance of going home with a young, hot girl, and money is no object, then its great. Otherwise....

Oh, and I met the troll that has been written about here so much - I do appreciate the heads up, as she is my type - physically. She was one of the most boring girls though - came up to me and, can't remember the total conversation, but basically said, "I like money". I replied, "money is just paper - what interesting things, if any, have you ever done with money". She was duly offended.

2) Apartment rentals - market is tight (long-term rentals), still overpriced, and I had a hell of a hard time finding a daily rental before coming - was all but ignored by most of the internet agencies. There are high-rises going up everywhere - give it a year, when they come on the market, and we'll see where prices/availability go...the biggest difficulty with finding an apartment, of any sort, is that there is no reliable, up to date database for realtors - you can ask an agent what's available, and they'll tell you only 3 apartments - in the whole city...

3) I won't go on about the whole cultural/downturn thing - its been a long time since EE girls just through themselves at westerners. Those days are over, forget about it. That said, the general level of available hot girls is still very high in Kiev - just takes some more searching.

4) Kirk, I don't know where to begin. It doesn't sound like a viable plan. 50%+ chance she takes whatever you pay her on the first day, and you never see her again - unless she is otherwise attracted to you, and you are generous above and beyond the set fee.

5) You can throw the $500/month average income out the window when discussing Kiev. True, there are still oodles of girls who make that, or even less, and are thus struggling. But just look at all the traffic jams, with the average car being a VW, at worst, with shlews of high-end cars, and very few old Ladas/Volgas left on the streets of Kiev. You don't drive a Mercedes - or a VW, for that matter - on a $500/month income.

[QUOTE=James T Kirk]I found a nice girl for 700 USD/week in kiev.

How can I pay her? All in once at the first day or half on Monday and half on Thursday or day by day? She could answer "all now or nothing" or "day by day is 300 USD per day (means 2100 USD/week)"

I want she will have a full visit about her health and she replied it costs about 240 USD. Is that a good idea or just a waste of money?

She said we can be friends and customer/prostitute: can I believe her? I think this is the prostitute's trick: "you are my friend so you can't cum in my throat and put two hands in my ass hole";.)

Thank you for help.[/QUOTE]

Day by day is $100 a day not $300???? why $300?

Full health visit? If you ride her bare back you are off your head anyway.

I have many girls who are pros or ex pros that are friends.

Many Ukrainian girls you must remember become pro due to financial problems of one sort or another. Have you been to the small towns outside the main cities? If I was living in them I would want to get the hell out also by fair means or foul.

Stop being anally retentive and just be a man and tell her this is how she will be paid and that is that. she will appreciate it more that way.

Street Sleuth wrote "Kirk, I don't know where to begin. It doesn't sound like a viable plan. 50%+ chance she takes whatever you pay her on the first day, and you never see her again. Unless she is otherwise attracted to you, and you are generous above and beyond the set fee. "

Qjump wrote "Full health visit? If you ride her bare back you are off your head anyway.

I have many girls who are pros or ex pros that are friends.

Stop being anally retentive and just be a man and tell her this is how she will be paid and that is that. She will appreciate it more that way. "

My friends, it is hard for me to manage girls because if I speak as a sincere and logic man (as Spock; .)) then girls become angry. So I need to be more sly than them. But it is hard to be more sly than girls. I read the wonderful reports about Ukrainian girls' beviahiour but it is hard for me to be an iron fist in a velvet glove. I know girls make sex for money because they have got financial troubles but so they became greedy too. I think my girl will ask all money at the first day and then. Perhaps she will disappear. Perhaps not.

She is orphan. She has got a younger sister and an older brother. She is a bisexual. Is that a problem?

It will be the second time I meet my girl in kiev, the first time, in June, I had passionate sex for two hours and some days after she became angry with me. Because I replied to her "why are you so greedy? There is more than money in the world, there is my friendship, there is my house for you, there my family for you, there is all my life for you. " yes, I am a romantic and silly man and now I think when girls want money for sex then it means girls want just money for their life and not friends. Unfortunately, this is my experience. So I think it is better I fuck her in all ways possible and then I see the future.

Yes, my first time I fuck her pussy without condoms and her ass with condom (I tried without but she didn't want), she licked my cock and I licked her pussy before with cream and after with sperm. She made a funny joke on me, we listened to some songs and saw some porn video clips, she didn't like Briana Banks' face fucking. Two hours had gone and so she said some relatives are awaiting for her at home. I offered other money to stay more, no: . (she went away.

I like her very much and so I want to fuck her for at least a week (I can't 9 weeks and a half because I need to work; .)) and I want to fuck her just as a girlfriend and so I will pay her full inspection. Am I crazy? Yes, I am but I want to get everything from this relationship. Life is only one and I am very tired to await for my perfect girl. I like this girl and I want this girl.

We have discussed about her visit and her work (as a pro) in my country. I asked her how much money she needs and she replied 15000 USD. I think it is a trick and it is means "do you want me? Then pay 15000 USD because I know 15000 USD are not a big amount for you" but instead she wants a lot more money.

[size=-2][b][u]EDITOR'S NOTE[/u]:[/b] [blue]I certainly hope that the author or somebody else will post a link to this report in the Reports of Distinction thread. Please [url=http://www.internationalsexguide.info/forum/announcement-reportsofdistinction.php?]Click Here[/url] for more information.[/blue][/size]

Street, yes the girls at RP can be quite rude. It's usually best to use some variant of fuck off if they behave that way to you. But don't be over the top or you will find yourself shut off by the cliques.

Sure there are quite a few new cars in Kiev and less older cars in the center. I think this is due to the newest way the powers that be have found to exploit the people - consumer loans. But most people I know who live in Kiev don't have a car and can barely afford to pay the rent - unless they were doled out an apartment. Of all the girls I have dated in Kiev only three have had cars. The daughter of a very high ranking police offical, an extremely attractive girl who often visits Switzerland for 'work' and a girl I never got to know well enough to find out what her deal was - probably a golden child. But the fees for owned apartments have skyrocketed - has the government started enforcing the payment of these fees yet Uke Boy?

If you leave Kiev Center you will find #3 to be less true. You have to remember Kiev Center is kind of a fantasy land it gives no true indication what the rest of the Ukraine is like. - heck, all you have to do is go to the other side of the river. The epicenter for spoiled Kiev girls is Mandarin Plaza..the further you get away from it the more normal the girls become. For every Kiev princess who speaks English well I see, I also see 50 other 'normal' Kiev girls who are just as attractive as her but that segment is (luckily) untapped by 98% of the people who read this forum or foreigners in general.