Bangkok Reports

Oosik -.

I am really enjoying your prose. It's been a while since I've seen such creative writing here. Please keep those reports coming.

[QUOTE=Oosik;1692114]I paid three visits to the. BJ's.....[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=RobertLong;1692141]Indonesia ( . . . )

I have noticed that in all Hotels, the bellboys that bring your bags to the room, wait for a tip. Some Taxi guys do and some don't. Every lady I entertained asked for a tip so I assume that a gratuity is expected.

RL.[/QUOTE]I assume that you are talking about hotel bellhops and taxis and ladies in Indonesia because none of them have done that to me in Thailand.

[QUOTE=RobertLong;1692141]Indonesia has a "service charge" on checks, they also have a tax, usually 21% for both. But there is a dividing line where most "local style eating joints" don't charge the 2 taxes. I also doubt that the employees get the service charge either.

I have noticed that in all Hotels, the bellboys that bring your bags to the room, wait for a tip. Some Taxi guys do and some don't. Every lady I entertained asked for a tip so I assume that a gratuity is expected.

RL.[/QUOTE]Thailand has a VAT, which should be included in the price of the food / service. Sometimes it's not. The higher-end places often add a service charge. I, too, suspect the wait staff may not get the service charges, but have no way to prove it. But, these days, with help in such short supply, it's probably not in the owner's best interest to screw the wait staff too badly. My biggest single objection to a service charge is that it tends to be pooled among the staff. Standout service and indifferent service are rewarded equally. Much like socialism in general, it breeds mediocrity. But that's far off topic.

If you're talking about Thai bellhops, ladies, etc. , I've never seen that activity outside of farang-centric areas. I have never had a Thai taxi driver ask for a tip, at least not a "regular" one I've picked up on the street. I'll admit that one of my failings is overtipping taxis. If I had to sit for hours, struggling with BKK traffic, I'd be on the front page of the BKK Post, branded as the Farang Axe Murder. So, on trips from / to the airport, long trips, etc. , I will tip more than normal, but I don't think it's ever been more than 100 baht.

With the ladies, the only time I can recall a tip being discussed was with rather "experienced" bar girls who obviously learned it from another farang. But that was a very rare occurrence. The price agreed upon is the price paid. A large gratuity is definitely not expected, nor is it the norm. Exceptions exist for massages, as the house-to-girl payment structure is highly variable. (To illustrate, in Mexico the club girls deal with LOTS of Americans. Almost every girl will ask for a tip above and beyond the negotiated price. Why? Americans tip.).

[QUOTE=Phordphan;1692139]Well, I don't have Arlo Guthrie's 8 x 10 glossies. But I do have a fair amount of anecdotal evidence, and a bit of logic.

I've caught myself doing it, I. E. Looking at the low price, figuring the money was nothing to me but a lot to this poor restaurateur, and began to leave a generous tip. In one case I was with a friend (non-bg, upper-middle-class, plenty of her own money) who, to blatantly steal a phrase from one of my favorite movies, looked at me as if I had lobsters coming out of my ears. She, in no uncertain terms, made me take the tip back and leave a few coins. In other instances I watched the other locals, who tipped nothing or very tiny amounts.

So, let's say you're upcountry, for instance, and presented with your bill at the mom-and-pop som tam joint. In a culture where tipping isn't done. Logic would indicate that forking over substantially more than the restaurant's price can easily be construed as the high-and-mighty white man tossing money to the poor, benighted brown man. We see it differently, they very likely don't.

Now, to address the cultural nuances of the above paragraph, imagine that you are, instead of a farang tourist, a rich and famous Thai pop star, or a member of the royal family. You would probably tip very large, and it would probably be gratefully accepted. Because that's the way royalty works in this not-too-far-removed-from-feudal society. The king bestows gifts on his subjects because that's what a king (or rich boss, or whatever) does. However, you, as the rich farang, are not part of the cultural "food chain. ".

Mr. Wolf is correct; the average farang tourist isn't going to make it past Pattaya, so probably won't be patronizing any seriously local joints. I, too, watch my Thai GF when we go to local places upcountry. And, yes, the tips range from 0 baht to perhaps 20 baht.

I guess my overall gripe is that tipping is such an ingrained part of the American psyche, and it's such a hard habit to break. And Americans have been criticized, with good reason, for throwing around money like it's going out of style. I think the Chinese may have taken over that dubious honor these days. It reminds me of an anecdote from Pappy Boyington's autobiography. He was in Burma, IIRC, and had an extremely filthy and muddy pair of flight boots. He had a young gofer who ran errands, cleaned the tents, etc. , and he asked him to clean his boots. He spent all day cleaning them and apparently did a good job. He gave the kid $1. (It was nothing to him, and meant a lot to the kid). Later the boy's father showed up very angry. He assumed that the kid's father was angry because he hadn't paid enough. Turns out that he was angry because Mr. Be had paid far too much, more than the father could earn in a (week / month I don't remember), and the father could no longer discipline his boy because the boy had lost much respect for the father. His (and my) point is that tossing around the almighty dollar doesn't always make everybody happy.[/QUOTE]Based on your response, it appears the answer to my question--"Do you have specific evidence that a high tip in a mom-and-pop restaurant is often seen as an insult in Thailand? Or is this just your speculation?"--is it is just your speculation without any specific evidence. Of course, any of us with extensive experience in Thailand knows that tipping practices are different there than in the United States and that Thai tipping is as a rule less generous, but that is a different issue from whether over tipping can be seen as an insult in certain Thai locales.

Last week I visited Thailand, started my trip from Chennai and landed first in Bangkok.

Very early morning I reached airport, Visa process took another 2 hours.

Then reached my hotel by taxi. Took 300 be. I had booked Alt Nana Hotel near to NEP.

It was 7 AM and had 5 hours at least for check-in.

Put the luggage in Hotel, had breakfast outside and went to some place to roam around the city.

Came back at 2, tired and needed some action.

Walked down the street of NEP and saw a cute lady outside the massage parlour. Naree Massage was the name.

Talked to lady before entering, 500 in counter for oil massage and 1500 inside for everything.

Went inside with her, first floor by stair.

Room. Clean and big room, shower at one corner. Another end had big bed. Interiors were full of sea shells and stones. Sunlight coming from window. A bright room.

She asked me to remove clothes and take shower while she went to fetch something.

She came back and joined me in shower, started blow job. That makes johny very hard and we came to bed.

Here I had a complete look at her body, clean and fair body, long hair, slim figure, clean shoved pussy, big legs, medium size boobs and small ass.

Wow!

I started licking and kissing over the body.

Blow job again started with full flow. Toothless, soft and warm. After some time came out. An awesome experience.

Massage started with chit chat. She started licking the whole body and playing my balls.

Had action in missionary, doggy and back side.

Came out in another 15 Minutes.

Again massage started but she stopped and laid beside me kissing and talking for another 15-20 minutes while playing with my johny.

I wanted to stay there for more time but 5 thought of leaving the place as I was tired.

But overall a nice GFE.

We hugged, kissed and said goodbye.

Will keep posting the other days experience.

I already explained the following in (much) earlier posts, but it seems that a reminder is necessary. In Thailand, you don't get respect from locals if you over pay (or over tip).

When you pay the right price (that's about the same price than a local or maybe a little bit more in some occurrences because, as a foreigner, you are, on average, much trouble to deal with), local people will think that you are 'chalat' (ฉลาด), which means 'clever'.

If you over pay (or over tip), then, Thai people think that you are 'ngo' (โง่), which means 'stupid'.

If you are too stingy (for instance, when you haven't taken into account that you got more than a local for a certain service and still you insist to pay the same price or lower than what a Thai would pay), you are considered as khi-niaw (ขี้เหนียว) or 'cheap Charlie'.

Sometimes, you may also be called a 'cheap Charlie', even if you pay the right price, by certain greedy locals who were expecting to make a better benefit in a transaction with the supposedly stupid foreigner, but it's usually easy to understand that it's not really the case in this kind of situation as it's mostly said jokingly.

On the contrary, when you are called "jai dee" '(ใจดี), which means 'good heart' or 'generous', it's often because you over payed for a service or goods, and more often than not, you are actually considered as 'ngo' by most locals.

And remember that the monthly average income per person in Thailand amounts just a little bit over 13500 bahts (13,581.1 THB for the last quarter of 2014 - source: National Statistical Office of Thailand: [url=https://www.bot.or.th/English/Statistics/Standard/SDDS/Pages/sdds.aspx]https://www.bot.or.th/English/Statistics/Standard/SDDS/Pages/sdds.aspx[/url]).

[QUOTE=LAGuy5;1692270]Based on your response, it appears the answer to my question--"Do you have specific evidence that a high tip in a mom-and-pop restaurant is often seen as an insult in Thailand? Or is this just your speculation?"--is it is just your speculation without any specific evidence. Of course, any of us with extensive experience in Thailand knows that tipping practices are different there than in the United States and that Thai tipping is as a rule less generous, but that is a different issue from whether over tipping can be seen as an insult in certain Thai locales.[/QUOTE]This is great information overall, but if we center on the P4 P industry then a different set of rules apply. I had a lady stop In the middle of the soapy and tell me that she expects a tip and that is all the money she makes as her share of the soapy was very small.

RL.

She may have said that, but its probably not true if she is working at a MP.

[QUOTE=RobertLong;1692363]This is great information overall, but if we center on the P4 P industry then a different set of rules apply. I had a lady stop In the middle of the soapy and tell me that she expects a tip and that is all the money she makes as her share of the soapy was very small.

RL.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=LAGuy5;1692270]Based on your response, it appears the answer to my question--"Do you have specific evidence that a high tip in a mom-and-pop restaurant is often seen as an insult in Thailand? Or is this just your speculation?"--is it is just your speculation without any specific evidence. Of course, any of us with extensive experience in Thailand knows that tipping practices are different there than in the United States and that Thai tipping is as a rule less generous, but that is a different issue from whether over tipping can be seen as an insult in certain Thai locales.[/QUOTE]What sort of "specific evidence" do you require?

I guess you didn't get the Arlo Guthrie reference, but there is no Thai version of Emily Post to which I can refer. I will point out that I have 15 years traveling around all of mainland SEA, talking to lots of people and keenly observing tipping practices, because it interests me. So, I have a reasonably educated opinion. But it is just an opinion, educated or not.

So, I called up the Thai GF (non-BG, middle class but from humble beginnings, degree, good I'm / ex job with very good salary). Sadly, she had no "specific evidence" either, just a very educated opinion. Seems she's spent the last 42 years living and working in Thailand. She gives the impression of having a reasonably good grasp of the Thai culture. She told me that each "bannok" restaurateur will be different, but overtipping could very well be interpreted as an insult. Her point, which I found interesting, was that it would be interpreted as some sort of "welfare" (my word). You're paying for something he didn't do. You've "cheapened" his efforts and made him look like a beggar. She then went on to illustrate by reminding me of a man we met at Amphawa last year. He was selling some very nice handmade baskets. He came up to us and offered his wares. We politely refused. He kept at it. She politely refused again, and then offered him some money (a "tip" as it were). He immediately refused and informed her that he was not a beggar. He worked for his living and was proud of it. We could buy a basket, or not buy a basket, but he would not accept handouts. (Ahh, if only more Americans were like him).

Now, I realize that the opinion of a life-long Thai may not rise to the level of "specific evidence. " But I have nothing else to offer but, as you call it, speculation. However, I'll stick with my speculation for now, until you can come up with some "specific evidence" to the contrary.

Meanwhile, here's an interesting article from the LA Times.

[URL]http://articles.latimes.com/2007/may/20/travel/tr-money20[/URL]

[QUOTE=RobertLong;1692363]This is great information overall, but if we center on the P4 P industry then a different set of rules apply. I had a lady stop In the middle of the soapy and tell me that she expects a tip and that is all the money she makes as her share of the soapy was very small.

RL.[/QUOTE]Agreed, as long as we're discussing massage. We've noted that the remuneration for a masseuse varies widely from venue to venue.

I had a similar experience a couple of years ago on Soi 22. I was waiting for GF and had a couple of hours. I wandered into one of the shops. The girls nabbed me and showed me the menu. At the top were the "regular" massages and down the page were the hanky-panky ones. I opted for a regular Thai massage, which was really what I wanted. She kept suggesting the others, but I insisted I was only interested in a Thai massage.

We got to the room, she looked unhappy. Then she got royally pissed off and started to cry. She told me that the boss (lady standing next to us downstairs) made her up-sell the massages, but since I didn't pick one she would get no money. In other words, no money for a regular massage. I offered her a nice tip, to compensate for the loss of income (I really only wanted a regular massage. Honest) She flatly refused. I was going to bail, but she proceeded to give a pretty decent massage. I tried to tip her again, when she finished, but, again, she flatly refused. I bailed and never looked back. Weirdest massage I ever had.

Your point is well taken. Always determine how the masseuse will be paid and "tip" accordingly. But this does not apply to bar girls.

Oosik you are killing me with these postings. I have never laughed so much reading mongering reports. Good job buddy.

[QUOTE=Oosik;1692114]I paid three visits to the. BJ's. There were several decent lookers in the mob that followed me in the door the first time, but I had a mission: I was looking for the legendary Consultant EE. The reviews here speak glowingly of her but warned of a very bad boob job. The idea of being trapped in literally a cage with mutant boobs was daunting. I have a high Boob Standard as a result of some good upbringing.

Yes, eight year olds could buy porn in Sudan, but try selling that stuff to them in one of those modern, progressive, western countries and you'll find surprise morning sex isn't half as enjoyable when you're incarcerated. Score one for Islam.

With her high heels, the steep stairs, and my average height I found myself staring right up a microskirt at the most amazing intergluteal cleft, more technically referred to as butt-crack, with the sacred orifice hidden by a glorified shoestring. Sadly, the hallowed ground is supposedly off limits, but one can fantasize. Or maybe even ask next time.

knowing that the bastards were going to have a hell of a time getting my fat ass down those fifty or sixty flights of stairs (my estimate) that I had to climb to get there. Okay, in all truth they would likely just lob me out the window, but hopefully that idea would escape me as I drew my dying breath. With any luck I'd hit one of those pricks walking at a snail's pace while glued to their phone.

The next day I managed to uncross my eyes.

My towels at the Hilton have never been wrapped like that. I'll never trust that chain again. The bed is big I think a king, begging for multiple occupancy. Most importantly, there is good air conditioning which was a damned good thing after those eighty flights of stairs (my new estimate). A defibrillator would have been spiffy, as well.

Over all, highly recommended. Yes, you could have skipped all this BS and just read the last line.[/QUOTE]I'm in tears after reading this. My sides hurt too. People outside my office are wondering if (this being appraisal season) this moron is chuckling at the raise he (isn't) going to give us.

[QUOTE=Oosik;1692114]I paid three visits to the. BJ's. [/QUOTE]Love your posts. Just wonderful! Thanks much for taking the time to write.

I'm blushing furiously now. Thanks all! Hopefully one more quickie in a week when I pass through on my way to Suvarnabhumi and the sadness that is home.

[QUOTE=Phordphan;1692397]Your point is well taken. Always determine how the masseuse will be paid and "tip" accordingly. But this does not apply to bar girls.[/QUOTE]Wait a moment! Bargirls and massage girls are just the same as other Thais, unless they have been corrupted by that vile sin of tipping that the Americans want to spread around.

What many here call a tip is actually a fee for "extra" services. When a massage girl starts with a normal massage and up-sells it into a special massage, the money you give her is not a tip but a fee.

Of course, Americans see this all topsy-turvy: the tips they pay are actyually a private tax to pay for the services of the wait-staff since the majority of their employers are too cheap to pay these poor people even the minimum wage. So American tips are fees. You pay the restaurant for the food and the accomodation, you pay the "tip" for the waiter to bring the food to you. In most European countries, pirces are all inclusive of taxes and tips. And that is the only proper way.

A tip or gratuity is something neither asked nor expected, but given out of your good heart for service above and beyond the normal.