Bangkok Reports

[QUOTE=Goatscrot;1700685]The Nana area is awful. Really awful. But, its one small section of the city and not at all typical of BKK. I can't stand Soi 4 and avoid it at all costs, especially during the day when the old alcoholics are perched on their stools in the beer bars. Depressing. But to my eyes that pales in comparison to the kind of human detritus that you see walking around Beach Road, Walking St, and other parts of Pattaya proper which is awful beyond belief. I actually loved Pattaya 15 years ago. Was there once a month for two or three nights. It was a blast. During low season you could shoot a cannon down Beach Rd and not hit anybody. I fondly remember the day the Starbucks on Beach Rd opened. 01 or 02 I think. For the first year or two if its existence we could sit upstairs, drink our coffee, and nary a soul would venture up there the entire afternoon. It had a real small town feel. No traffic either. Now it is always crowded. Beach Rd is full of amazingly skanky gals, UEOs (people of unidentified ethnic origin), and older out of shape Western guys, some of whom look like they have already been embalmed. Perhaps Jomtien is better, but wow Pattaya is kind of well "yucky" now for lack of a better term. Difference is in BKK you go one BTS stop from Nana and you are in another world far away from the horrors of Soi 4. Honestly, where do you go in Pattaya to escape the tourists and scummy locals? I have one friend who lives down there and it is for one reason. Cheap girls. Dude is 55, ripping good shape, and still does 3 gals a day. Pattaya fits his budget for that and that is his primary need. However, if chasing gals is not one's main motivation I would think Pattaya would be a tough place to live.

Had to attend a wedding there last Dec and while strolling the beach even saw two Farangs sleeping on the beach at 10 pm. I have the same reaction that you did about Bangkok. "Someone would actually choose this shithole over BKK?" To each his own I guess.[/QUOTE]My reaction also; I couldn't agree more. The only caveat is I haven't been to Pattaya in years largely because of what you have described. On the other hand, I can't count how many times I have been to Bangkok and haven't even bothered to visit the Nana area; I usually only go there when I'm with a friend who wants to visit the place.

[QUOTE=LAGuy5;1700695]My reaction also; I couldn't agree more. The only caveat is I haven't been to Pattaya in years largely because of what you have described. On the other hand, I can't count how many times I have been to Bangkok and haven't even bothered to visit the Nana area; I usually only go there when I'm with a friend who wants to visit the place.[/QUOTE]The Nana area has gotten worse and worse over the years. I am hopeful though that the slate of new condos and office buildings will lead them to clean up the area and get rid of the human trash. One week ago I had the misfortune of having to drive down Soi 4 about 1130 am on my motorbike. Saw a completely hammered late 50's farang dude pop out of his seat on the rail of one of the beers bars there, walk across the street, drop his pants, and [url=http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord140][CodeWord140][/url]. Sadly the BIB on the corner did not see him. Deport the guy.

[QUOTE=Goatscrot;1700704]The Nana area has gotten worse and worse over the years. I am hopeful though that the slate of new condos and office buildings will lead them to clean up the area and get rid of the human trash. One week ago I had the misfortune of having to drive down Soi 4 about 1130 am on my motorbike. Saw a completely hammered late 50's farang dude pop out of his seat on the rail of one of the beers bars there, walk across the street, drop his pants, and shiit. Sadly the BIB on the corner did not see him. Deport the guy.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=LAGuy5;1700695]My reaction also; I couldn't agree more. The only caveat is I haven't been to Pattaya in years largely because of what you have described. On the other hand, I can't count how many times I have been to Bangkok and haven't even bothered to visit the Nana area; I usually only go there when I'm with a friend who wants to visit the place.[/QUOTE]Ditto this. I stopped going to Pattaya a few years ago due primarily to the never-ending stream of weirdos. People who, if you were in your home country, you'd cross the street to avoid.

Don't get me started on Soi Nana. I used to stroll down it every time I was in BKK, just for old times sake. I have many fond memories of the place. But now, OMG. The old railbirds, well into their cups by noon, the really ugly women, the skanks, the filth. It's all a bit much.

Oh, BTW, does anybody have a guesstimate as to the square footage of Underground, formerly Voodoo? I read recently, in Stickman, that the monthly rent was 660,000 baht. That's what, a bit over $20 K per month? That's got to be a staggering cost per foot. I suspect that the Nana Plaza bars will die a slow death of cash strangulation. I sense a high-rise shopping mall in its future, which may not be the worst thing to happen to this area, which appears to be far past its prime.

[QUOTE=Goatscrot;1700685]you could shoot a cannon down Beach Rd and not hit anybody.[/QUOTE]A large part of the problem is that we don't shoot cannons there more often.

I try to look at the cesspools of decrepitude like Nana and Pattaya (and really a LOT of other places) as a warning of what I will eventually become. I figure that when I don't notice it, I have become it. So it is actually a ray of sunshine in my life.

[QUOTE=MrEnternational;1700581]Me and my wingman left home in Pattaya and arrived at BKK airport. We left our baggage in the storage place that is at the end of Counter N. The price is 100 baht/bag/day. We went outside to get a taxi. I do speak Thai and told the first guy that we were going to Sukhumvit Soi Nana. He ushered us into his taxi and when we were comfortable told us 500 baht! I asked if he was crazy. He said 400 baht. We got out and got into the taxi behind him. I offered the driver 250 baht to Nana. He accepted.

It has been about two years since I have been to Nana and much longer for my wingman. And now, to me, that place sucks. I remember being new to Thailand in September 2005 and thinking it was the bees knees. Now I think, "Someone would really choose this shithole over Pattaya?

I asked a girl in the Nana car park how much for short time. She said 1200 (I used to pay 500 there. In Pattaya I pay 1000 for long time.) We then went around back to see if the Nana Hotel club was open. A freelancer spotted us going down the alley and thought we were going to our rooms. I said no, we are going to the club. She said the club was closed.

We then went across to the bar next to Nana Plaza that used to be Black Cat or something. There were chicks there (not attractive in the least bit) who appeared to be freelancers, but mentioned a bar fine.

We left there and went to the Grace Hotel car park..[/QUOTE]The parking lot girls always say 1200 or 1500. Just say 1000 and they all will go for that. Its not 500 baht like the old days, but better than some of the stories you read here.

[QUOTE=Phordphan;1700717]Oh, BTW, does anybody have a guesstimate as to the square footage of Underground, formerly Voodoo? I read recently, in Stickman, that the monthly rent was 660,000 baht. That's what, a bit over $20 K per month? That's got to be a staggering cost per foot. I suspect that the Nana Plaza bars will die a slow death of cash strangulation. I sense a high-rise shopping mall in its future, which may not be the worst thing to happen to this area, which appears to be far past its prime.[/QUOTE]Staggering is the cost of commercial space in the Suk area. They have just converted a building at the mouth of Suk Soi 20 to several single wide shophouse type structures. They want 400 k per month for each single wide. WTF? So prices are rising along Suk for everything. Business owners are not making any money despite putting their prices up and employees are sure not benefitting. The only folks seeing return are the greedy landowners. More money in the pockets of the elite. Same Same.

[QUOTE=Oosik;1700733]I try to look at the cesspools of decrepitude like Nana and Pattaya (and really a LOT of other places) as a warning of what I will eventually become. I figure that when I don't notice it, I have become it. So it is actually a ray of sunshine in my life.[/QUOTE]Well stated. As I age I actually notice it more and more. Guess that is a good thing. Old alcoholics are a depressing lot. Not a club I will join.

[QUOTE=Goatscrot;1700793]. . . prices are rising along Suk for everything. Business owners are not making any money despite putting their prices up and employees are sure not benefitting. The only folks seeing return are the greedy landowners. . . [/QUOTE]That scenario must spell the beginning of the end for Soi Cowboy then.

It is prime real estate (land) and the buildings could be bulldozed in a few days if a developer decided to build something like a mall or even another hotel.

Who owns most of the properties along Soi Cowboy?

Is there one significant owner or corporation or are some of the bars owned freehold?

I could imagine them selling out very quickly if juicy big bucks were dangled in front of them.

[QUOTE=RedKilt;1700806]That scenario must spell the beginning of the end for Soi Cowboy then.

It is prime real estate (land) and the buildings could be bulldozed in a few days if a developer decided to build something like a mall or even another hotel.

Who owns most of the properties along Soi Cowboy?

Is there one significant owner or corporation or are some of the bars owned freehold?

I could imagine them selling out very quickly if juicy big bucks were dangled in front of them.[/QUOTE]Interesting. There is a lot of talk about how this Iranian guy (often referred to as "the Arab" by those who do not know their geography) kind of ruined Soi Cowboy by introducing Coyote dancers to many of his bars, and adopting policies that are not very monger friendly, at least not to those who are used to a certain level of service and value at the go gos. But I have never considered whether he owns the land and buildings, or just the businesses. If he owns the land, this might answer the question many have about how he makes his money, and might offer an alternative to what may be the most popular answer albeit unverified: money laundering. Perhaps he is just holding onto an investment. But, then again, if he only owns the businesses, and not the land, someone else might be the land owner and might eventually be enticed to sell.

[QUOTE=RedKilt;1700806]That scenario must spell the beginning of the end for Soi Cowboy then.

It is prime real estate (land) and the buildings could be bulldozed in a few days if a developer decided to build something like a mall or even another hotel.

Who owns most of the properties along Soi Cowboy?

Is there one significant owner or corporation or are some of the bars owned freehold?

I could imagine them selling out very quickly if juicy big bucks were dangled in front of them.[/QUOTE]Red, the shophouses on Cowboy are owned by different individuals. If there were only one owner it would have been gone a long time ago as it is some of the most valuable land in the city. My guess is that at some point it will become such a sore spot that the GoGos will have to go (no pun intended). With the prime location and plenty of parking in malls and buildings nearby my guess is that at some point it might become a strip of restaurants and bars when the "naughty" establishments are forced to "rebrand. " Don't think this will happen tomorrow, but within 10 years? Let's see.

[QUOTE=LAGuy5;1700814]Interesting. There is a lot of talk about how this Iranian guy (often referred to as "the Arab" by those who do not know their geography) kind of ruined Soi Cowboy by introducing Coyote dancers to many of his bars, and adopting policies that are not very monger friendly, at least not to those who are used to a certain level of service and value at the go gos. But I have never considered whether he owns the land and buildings, or just the businesses. If he owns the land, this might answer the question many have about how he makes his money, and might offer an alternative to what may be the most popular answer albeit unverified: money laundering. Perhaps he is just holding onto an investment. But, then again, if he only owns the businesses, and not the land, someone else might be the land owner and might eventually be enticed to sell.[/QUOTE]The "Arab" so to speak does not own the land as he is not Thai.

[QUOTE=Goatscrot;1700827]. . . My guess is that at some point it will become such a sore spot that the GoGos will have to go (no pun intended). With the prime location and plenty of parking in malls and buildings nearby my guess is that at some point it might become a strip of restaurants and bars when the "naughty" establishments are forced to "rebrand. " Don't think this will happen tomorrow, but within 10 years? Let's see.[/QUOTE]I think you might be right GS. All the more reason to "make hay while the sun shines", because it seems Thai business is sliding and needs a kick; even the Philippines is supposedly slipping ahead (see [URL]http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-01-30/move-over-thailand-the-philippines-is-southeast-asia-s-strong-man[/URL]).

I never go near Nana, so if Soi Cowboy changed Bkk would lose a lot of its attraction for me.

Unlike Soi Cowboy, Nana Plaza has one owner who leases space to the various bar owners. For some time, and especially since the remodel, rents have been soaring there. The increasing number of empty spaces is evidence of this.

There is speculation that one of the three gogo bar areas will eventually shut down. Most think Patpong will remain in business and one of the two lower Suk areas will close down. Some think it will be Nana Entertainment Plaza because there is one owner. Others think it will be Soi Cowboy because it is near the intersection of Asoke and Sukhumvit. Who knows what will happen? What impact would shutting down NEP or SC have on the entire neighborhood? Would fewer people stay in that area? Would it clean up the neighborhood, making it more attractive to the more numerous tourists who are not sex mongers?

[QUOTE=LAGuy5;1700814]this Iranian guy (often referred to as "the Arab" by those who do not know their geography) kind of ruined Soi Cowboy by introducing Coyote dancers to many of his bars, and adopting policies that are not very monger friendly[/QUOTE]

The Arab ruined Soi Cowboy just as Bully (may he rest in peace) ruined Nana. The word is out that both were deriving income from other ventures (for instance, boiler rooms), and only using the bars to launder money. Not sure how many other current bar owners are in the same category. With no need to turn a profit, such owners have no real need to attract mongers or provide good service, just to make the bars look good enough to justify the earnings on the books.

Unfortunately, rising rents and shrinking pool of working girls has made bars unattractive both to punters and to owners who'd try to profit by appealing to customers (instead of just laundering money).

[QUOTE=Goatscrot;1700793]Staggering is the cost of commercial space in the Suk area. They have just converted a building at the mouth of Suk Soi 20 to several single wide shophouse type structures. They want 400 k per month for each single wide. WTF? So prices are rising along Suk for everything. Business owners are not making any money despite putting their prices up and employees are sure not benefitting. The only folks seeing return are the greedy landowners. More money in the pockets of the elite. Same Same.[/QUOTE]If left to the free market, rents will reach an equilibrium and stabilize. When, and if, vacancies become too high the price will drop. If an owner consistently has 100% occupancy then the rents are too low.

Between rising prices for commercial real estate (hardly unique to BKK lately), the drastic decrease in the female talent pool, and the change in the type of tourist who visits the LOS (read: fewer customers), I think the A-Go-Go business model is no longer viable. Using Stick's numbers, Underground / Voodoo would have to sell about 150 drinks (at 150 baht each) per day, simply to pay the rent. That may be possible in a consistently busy bar, but these days? Obviously Underground couldn't do it. Who will be the next to fold?

If the NEP starts to empty out, all other things being equal, the rents will drop. But, should that happen, my money's on the owners selling the joint, lock, stock and barrel, to a developer.