General Info

Hi Peter, thanks for the comments. That was a nice description of the basics. I was certain this has been discussed before, but I wasn't sure how to search to get to the core of it. And the situation can evolve, so it can be good to re-visit it.

Regarding my lady friends, here in the US we have to be very careful so you tend to have to learn a fair amount about someone before you see her. Also, in a small city like mine it tends to be a small world, so many of the ladies become personal aquaintances, although (for me) no emotional relationships. Sometimes it happens I wish there was no relationship, but most of the older (30+) ladies are actually very interesting people and pretty nice. I actually don't feel like I'm exploiting them, all the ladies I know at all well are without question running their own show.

What you say makes sense in terms of what I know about the laws in Germany. And it passes the economics test, in a smaller club with lower overhead, if 50 guys came through on a busy day that could be 2500 Euros, add 500-1000 from the ladies and that sounds like a good moneymaker.

I know some of my friends would still be suspicious about how strictly on the up-and-up the clubs operate, and what percent of the ladies are exploited by the pimping and trafficking hangers-on. Be interested to see if anyone has any comments about that, or has concrete information on how the ladies are treated in any particular club.

[QUOTE=Johnny Z]In a Pauschalclub or Partytreff, the girls are obviously "on staff" in some way. Anyone know how they get paid. Per performance, per night, or some combination. And in general how much they might make? [/QUOTE]
Peter knows the FKK club financial picture from behind the scenes better than I do.

I've asked several times how the PT women and clubs make their money and from my understanding there is some kind of revenue sharing arrangement going on.

You pay typically 100 Euros to get in. There usually are (as least back in 2005 when I first visited PTs) six to eight women there.

My understanding is that for each guest that comes, they get something like 10 Euros per head. The rate probably varies with the type of event going on that day and the entrance fee pricing.

So if the club takes in 100 Euros and there are say seven women there, then the club has 30 Euros per guest to pay its overhead, food, drink and staff after paying the women.

If the club has 50 guests during the whole day, each chick takes home 500 Euros and the club has 1,500 Euros to pay its bills.

The women primary job to keep the guests satisfied. The well run PTs have a rule that if there is even one complaint the chick is tossed out on her ear.

This creates a team athmosphere between the women where they keep tabs on who among them isn't doing her share. At a PT like Dorsten the women double team you. They almost never take on men individually. She usually has a partner trying to facilitate the session. Its also a form of security for them should the dude turn out to be unruly. The quicker you come, the quicker they can take a break.

There are ways to offset this behavior by the way. I've spent many long hours just poking away with women I've connected well with a these clubs. I complain openly to them that I am not a cow who is there to be milked (they will milk you exactly as they would a cow if you let them - I have no doubt at all that some of them actually have milked cows, goats or sheep).

This brings to mind a sign which hangs in the bedroom near the front staircase at PT Mettmann which advertises milking equipment for a [i]Molkerei[/i]. I laughed hard the first time I saw it.

The clubs have found a way to have the women classified as independent contractors otherwise it creates all sorts of issues for them. They are not employees. This legal distinction is important.

At the PTs with closed doors such as PT Traumland there appears to be an incentive system at work. Each time you go to a room with a chick she collects a token (or jeton) and they count them at the end of the day. I've not figured out how they fees are shared at a club such as this yet. I asked Anja the last time I was there what it was about but she wouldn't explain.

Johnny Z,

I sort of misunderstood. I thought you were discussing your german exploits with non working girls.

If they re american and decent looking, they should try a 2 week stint in a top FKK, and see for themselves.

I do know quite a bit about the background working of a lot of clubs, but I am not going to divulge much of it here.

There are some clubs which are directly owned ow managed by organized crime groups like the Hells Angels, btu according to a lot of customers these are some of the best run clubs around. I have my own feelings on this, but that might just be due to personal experiences with such groups outside of this business.

I also knwo some small family type clubs which turn out to be virtual fronts for 1 or 2 pimps to offer only thier ladies.

The simple fact is that the system of the FKK pretty much makes pimps unnecessar, adn girls who choose to have them, are pretty much at fault themseleves. If you see girls with a name tattooed prominently on themselves, you can assume the name is not of thier dead brother, but ore tan likely her pimp. Whether he is exploiting her, or whether she is expressing her deep love for him is something a psychologist should be figuring out. I know a tonne of girls who work 100% for themselves. I know girls who work to support a husband and kids. I know girls who work to support thier boyfriend, adn I know girls who compete to be the best hooker for a guy who claims to have 15 girlfriends.....So it is not systematic, and people choose what they choose.

I know girls who have come from poland or blugaria or romania or brazil, and 99% of them knew exactly what the hiring agent was looking for when he was searching for "hostesses for a bar" and none that have their passports taken away.

That is more the sort of thing that happens in appartments where 3 or 4 girls work.

Whether the clubs are keeping completely accurate books and paying taxes on every cent of their recepts is a bit of a question, and probably isn't hapening, as it is a cash business. But the only club closed due to the tax issues is Atlantis....I know a couple fo others that have had multiple tax enquiries and some club anagers who have significant tax liabilities out of this.

I know a lot about clubs, and I am generally a person who doesn't do horrndously immoral things, and I feel cofortable going to clubs.

If you are paranoid, then don't go.

There used to be a guy here and I met hi and is wife at a swinger club once, and his wife used to like to go to work at FKK's on her vacation. She was a woman in her 40's from a major EU country and had a good job. She liked working there. And she worked in a club that happens to be owned by the Hells Angels.

Thanks for the additional comments, Peter. I didn't mean to imply I wanted "inside info" that you shouldn't relate pubically. I am just curious about the whole system. Obviously you know quite a bit, I would infer you've worked with or in some clubs.

Also don't misunderstand my followup. I'm not worried, much less paranoid, about the FKKS, to the contrary I think this system is about is good as we could hope for. A couple of my lady friends were dubious about how independently the ladies can work, but you summed it up nicely. There can be shenanigans in any kind of system. As I said in my previous post, I'm 100% sure the ladies I know well here in the US are in charge of their own affairs, and it is clear that in Germany you can work on your own terms in all types of business models.

Oh, would I love to bring a lady friend or two with me to Germany! Yes, I think I know a couple of them who would do quite well, they might find it could be a profitable trip, not just a free (albeit working) vacation.

Jackyo, thanks for the outline of the PT structure. That sounds less lucrative, but I guess taking in 600 Euros a day (for the clubs) adds up even after expenses, and 200 Euros per lady who on average are satisfying 2 men sounds reasonable.

God, I am wishing on all my lucky stars that this business to Germany which might happen in October actually comes to pass. I can hardly wait to go back.

Hi there, I am new to the German scene and I am looking for more upscale clubs that offer full service. I have a few questions, I hope you can help.

Q1: What is the difference between Nachtclubs, FKK Clubs and Sauns Clubs?

Q2: I was told the the Relax Nachtclub in Hamburg is the type of club I am looking for, but from the website, it doesn't seem to offer the services like the FKK clubs? What exactly is a Nachtclub?

Q3: If FKK clubs is what I should be looking for, can you recommend any upscale clubs in Frankfurt, Dusseldorf and Koln?

Q4: Apart from the above, I also saw Sauna Clubs on Google. What are Sauna Clubs???

Q5: I also read about facilities like Pascha in Koln, what is this?

Thank you in advance for your help! Look forward to hear from you.

Peter

[QUOTE=Peter Shaww]Hi there, I am new to the German scene and I am looking for more upscale clubs that offer full service. I have a few questions, I hope you can help.

Q1: What is the difference between Nachtclubs, FKK Clubs and Sauns Clubs?

Q2: I was told the the Relax Nachtclub in Hamburg is the type of club I am looking for, but from the website, it doesn't seem to offer the services like the FKK clubs? What exactly is a Nachtclub?

Q3: If FKK clubs is what I should be looking for, can you recommend any upscale clubs in Frankfurt, Dusseldorf and Koln?

Q4: Apart from the above, I also saw Sauna Clubs on Google. What are Sauna Clubs???

Q5: I also read about facilities like Pascha in Koln, what is this?

Thank you in advance for your help! Look forward to hear from you.

Peter[/QUOTE]
... are answered in the FAQ I wrote up a month or so ago.

Here is the link:

[post]769453[/post]

I will not answer the questions answered in the FAQ but will answer questions which aren't answered by it.

A Nachtclub is a night club. Beware. This means that the women who work there do so on commission. If they can get you to order the 300 Euro bottle of champagne, they get a piece of that. They are also known as [i]Animierungsmaedchen[/i]. They are usually available for extracurricular activities but beware. It is going to cost you.

What is this about wanting an upscale experience? What do you mean by that exactly? Do you think that if you spend more money you get better service? How about just visiting a wallet extraction service or taking your dollar bills and burning them at a fireplace?

There was a club near the Dutch border, the Hindenburg, which supposedly meant to deliver an upscale experience. Everything cost more. There was to be good food and drink, the women were to be elegantly dressed. What was it exactly? A place for folks with money to burn or with an expense account.

I was having a discussion with Peter years ago when this concept was first introduced. The women received more money but could they be more nude, blow harder, screw more enthusiastically than they do for the standard rate of 50 Euros per session? Probably not.

I don't believe the club exists any more.

To find out about Relax, do a search for it using the search button. Hamburg is not a hot spot for FKK club activity. It lives off its reputation as a destination for sex (much like Amsterdam) but it mostly preys off tourists so the women have no incentive to provide good service.

Best FKK clubs to visit? Look over the club threads and make a list of the ones with the most posts. This would give you a list of the largest clubs with the most ISG visitors. They are, frankly, not clubs I visit but if you are new or speak no German you should stay on the beaten path anyway.

This is Londonbasketcase's list, z. B.

[post]787245[/post]

You seem to imply you want to only visit clubs which are more upscale than the ones we normally visit so I'm not sure these will meet your requirements. Again its use of the word "upscale" which has me wondering what you are looking for.

Pascha is a brothel similar the set up in the Frankfurt RLD or what they call a [i]Laufhaus[/i].

hindenburg is now a normal restaurant. Tehy gave up the higher class thing after about 2 months.

They did pick the prettiest girls form happy and wildenrath to work there, and the higher price customers also are the type who will book a girl for 3000€ for a week vacation in Ibiza or soemting like that.

The management of Villa Vertigo still knows these types of guys, and soe fo the girls that work there can make some extra money that way.

There used ot also be a couple of guys who would have their own sex parties, and look for a coupe of girls to work these sort of parties, usually about 500-700€ for the night.

Wildenrath sort of kept the top floor for these sort of parties.....but these parties are more rare nowadays.

There is a decent FKK in Hamburg, called FKK125, and I think it is on the Sasseler Chaussee 125. It is small with only about 8-10 girls working, but the pricing is similar to FKK's in the rhineland and I have had very good service there. They also make a really good Strammer Max, whcih is 2 fried eggs on a piece of ham on a piece of toast.....it tastes really really good.

And Johnny,

I gues bosses who want to epand thier business in germany should send their employee to an FKK on the first trip, that will make them give their all to make more business happen.

I know I take internatinal business partners there, making them want to do more business here, offering better prices for the chance to fuck more girls.....

Thanks Peter and Jackyo!

I totally agree with your points regarding the clubs.

From the posts, looks like the top clubs are near Frankfurt, I am actually spending more time in the Dusseldorf/Koln area. Which fkk/sauna clubs will you recommend there? (I really hope to know your personal picks!)

[QUOTE=Italia77]I hope this is the correct section to post my question. I think it doesn't need a proper thread.

I like even black girls, round lips and asses strong like stones borned to be doggied.

I was curious to understand which is, for yourself, the best fkk or sauna club for reach pretty and hot black girls.

Thanks to all the contributions

I can only mention, for my experience, Crystal from Palace (2007) and Destiny from Oase (2008). Only black girls I tried by myself fkk experience.[/QUOTE]
On my last 3 trips to Germany this year, Oase seemed to have between 2-4 black chicks from Africa or Dominican Rep. Black women are not really my type, but I did a pretty fine Ethiopian last fall @ Living Room. Last month, I had a great time with a black/Cuban chick named Marina @ Palace. Tight bod, nice ass with a fake rack. Off the hook service! She was working during the day shift.

Since the FKK and Sauna clubs are all open, I am a bit worried about running into friends/business associates.

I am going to a large trade show, and a lot of my fellow businesses will be in the same town at the same time.

Any advice?

[QUOTE=Peter Shaww]Since the FKK and Sauna clubs are all open, I am a bit worried about running into friends/business associates.

I am going to a large trade show, and a lot of my fellow businesses will be in the same town at the same time.

Any advice?[/QUOTE]
uhhh, wear a mask?
Dude, if you meet your friends in there, they will be there for the same reasons as you

[QUOTE=Peter Shaww]From the posts, looks like the top clubs are near Frankfurt, I am actually spending more time in the Dusseldorf/Koln area. Which fkk/sauna clubs will you recommend there? (I really hope to know your personal picks!)[/QUOTE]Düssseldorf/Köln is actually much better than Frankfurt.

(I live near Frankfurt.) Go to some Partytreff clubs:

Sara's, Dorsten, Mettmann.

[QUOTE=Peter Shaww]Thanks Peter and Jackyo!

I totally agree with your points regarding the clubs.

From the posts, looks like the top clubs are near Frankfurt, I am actually spending more time in the Dusseldorf/Koln area. Which fkk/sauna clubs will you recommend there? (I really hope to know your personal picks!)[/QUOTE]
That is debatable.

I hardly ever go down there and if you are going to be based in Duesseldorf/Koeln you will actually already be in the center of things in NRW.

Are you still committed to spending as much money as possible at an "upscale" club?

As I've said many times before, your best choice for a first time club is Samya which is within Koeln city limits. Decent club, selection, food and drink, facilities, low risk of being ripped off. There also is Sudbad but I've not read good things about it.

If you have a car (and considering you are a newbie and a tourist), you should do the [i]Grenzgebietclubs[/i]: Planet Happy Garden, Goldentime and Villa Vertigo.

That should keep you busy for a while.

The latter three are large, transactional clubs which are used to dealing with tourists.

You can also add Living Room to this list. Its just to the west of Duesseldorf.

When you are ready to visit smaller relationship-oriented clubs which cater to a mostly German-speaking local clientele let me know. You will find me at those clubs, not the ones I am sending you to. They are off the beaten path for newbies and tourists.

Bernds is one of them, z. B. but I don't recommend that newbies visit this club until they have a few other clubs under their belts.

[QUOTE=Peter Shaww]Since the FKK and Sauna clubs are all open, I am a bit worried about running into friends/business associates.

I am going to a large trade show, and a lot of my fellow businesses will be in the same town at the same time.

Any advice?[/QUOTE]
You might also go when your friends/business associates are likely to be doing something else... or you can go off the beaten path and visit the lesser known, smaller clubs in NRW.

[QUOTE=Peter Shaww]Since the FKK and Sauna clubs are all open, I am a bit worried about running into friends/business associates.

I am going to a large trade show, and a lot of my fellow businesses will be in the same town at the same time.

Any advice?[/QUOTE]
...at you, so no worries. If you do run into them at a club, they (and you) will have many more interesting things to contemplate. And just think of the unique camraderie and common ground that you will now have with them, which could be translated into commercial capital later.

Alot depends on where you are from. If you're from Asia this kind of business entertainment is part of doing business. If you're from Europe, they will look at you as a normal fresh-blooded male. On the other hand if you hail from the sex penitentiary that I call home (otherwise known in atlases as the US of A), the threat of your outing them will ensure their own discretion.

Really, don't see anything to worry about. I first learned about FKK's from a German business partner of mine. At first, I didn't believe him and had to overcome my own cultural barriers before I ventured forth to visit. After I finally discovered FKK joys, and was amazed by what I had discovered, I invited him for an FKK night out, and we went together to his favorite club, Atlantis, where I paid his entry and sessions fees as thanks. We've continued doing business together ever since, and at one point I was even his superior.

Your alternative to the "open" FKK clubs is to go to a bordello. There are lots of them in the Cologne/Dusseldorf area. In fact, the local edition of the Bild will have a whole page of advertisements for these houses. One of the best is off the A52 highway which runs between Cologne and Bonn, Traum Paradies in Spich. Nice rooms, good service, and very discrete. Oh, and because this seems important to you, very upscale.

They will not buzz you in unless the entry way is free of other customers and let you out of a side door when you're done. There's usually 10-15 women on duty at any given time, and while they may not be the top model type lookers like you would find at the big FKK/sauna clubs, most are very attractive and attentive. In the privacy of a room, they will parade in to say hello and their name, and you get to choose which of the available women you would like to spend time with. Most of the other private houses will work the same way.

Njoy and report...