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[QUOTE=CBGBConnisur]The blame is being placed on Bush but the everyday people who voted for him..twice are to blame, even the people who did not vote for him, who lived irresponsibly above their means are to blame for this mess.[/QUOTE]Exactamundo. QFT.
I can still hate Bush for being a gigantic turd though.
Honestly to get a real feel of the state of America, avoid the coastal cities, and see the Midwest, especially the rust belt states of Ohio, Pennsylvania, and Michigan. The US economy is a shadow of its former self. I hear bullshit talkers say that the loss of American manufacturing is irrelevant. Also that Muslim slimeball who works for Newsweek, Fareed Zakaria who loves to make his spitting on America look like he is cheering for America say that an idea economy will take the place of manufacturing is rubbish(ie designing Ipods rather than manufacturing them). Many European countries also have sizable knowledge based economies yet manufacturing is still seen as a bulwark of the working classes. Japan is another economy that is widely seen as knowledge based, in some areas Japanese technology surpasses the US, yet manufacturing is still key to that nation's prosperity. India's idea economy has not lifted its masses out of poverty, and it would be frightening if the US resembled India in another 20 to 30 years, with an ultra rich elite and the masses in poverty. Not everyone is cut out to become a scientist, engineer, or internet entrepreneur. China has largely lifted itself from a third world basket case to a soon to be superpower through manufacturing, and despite having many desperately poor people, its middle class is rapidly growing, still most people are poor, but two or three decades in the future things will be different in that Asian nation.
I don't like Bush either but the US is a democracy and the people elected Bush. A sizable portion of the population bought into his hypocritical nonsense. I recall when running for reelection in 2004 at a rally he was standing on top of a giant W, and the morons surrounding him were cheering.
Oh I forgot to correct myself, the Russians did not invade Georgia, they were responding to Georgia's incursion of breakaway South Ossetia. Still the US was heavily courting Georgia, and the lack of support shows that US power in the world is declining.
Right now I would liken the US to a passenger jet about to crash. I think Obama would lead to a soft landing while McCain would pretty much lead to a fiery crash. And Palin....start praying to God, that woman has is completely out of her league.
I never voted for Bush and I never borrowed a dime in my life (except for mortgages that were well within my ability to re-pay, and which I did pay off). I never lived beyond my means. I never carried a credit card balance. I never had a car loan. I saved money every single paycheck since I started working at 14.
I'm ruined now anyway. I'll never be able to retire.
Who was in power when the Great Depression started? Republicans. Who was in power during the '73-'74 bear market? Republicans. Who was in power in the '87 stock market crash? Republicans.
Does anyone see a pattern here?
In Australia, the education ministries are now beginning to require young people to learn Asian languages, Mandarin in particular. Even the wealthy in America are hiring Chinese au pairs to teach their children about Chinese language and culture. Why? They see a growing pattern where Asia is becoming an economic force to be reckoned with, despite the financial turmoil in the US and UK, the major Asian nations will still continue growing although somewhat at a slower pace. Goldman Sachs predicts China will surpass the US around 2041 in terms of nominal GDP, another sources places the year 2020 when the Asian nation becomes the biggest economy in the world.
Also the major oil producers such as Russia and OPEC aren't really experiencing any major problems. In fact its Christmas in Moscow.
I never voted for Bush either and I never really accumulated much consumer debt. Still the fact remains that as much as 85 percent of Americans live day to day on credit. Would you then understand why this credit crunch is causing mass panic?
One thing that this election has exposed about America, is that the racial divide still remains, it was particularly so during the nomination process for the Democratic candidate, it was completely a double edged sword, white voters who supported Clinton felt cheated, and if Obama lost many black voters felt the same. The racial problem is extending into the main election, you can bet
that if Obama loses, its going to cause serious friction in America, and even if he wins, many people in more conservative regions of the US will resent his message of change. I am completely shocked that I will be seeing the decline of the US in my lifetime. The next 20 to 30 years will be among the most unstable the planet has ever seen, probably worse than the first half of the 20th Century, I am just wondering who the next Hitler may be.
[QUOTE=Dickhead]I never voted for Bush and I never borrowed a dime in my life (except for mortgages that were well within my ability to re-pay, and which I did pay off). I never lived beyond my means. I never carried a credit card balance. I never had a car loan. I saved money every single paycheck since I started working at 14.
I'm ruined now anyway. I'll never be able to retire.
Who was in power when the Great Depression started? Republicans. Who was in power during the '73-'74 bear market? Republicans. Who was in power in the '87 stock market crash? Republicans.
Does anyone see a pattern here?[/QUOTE]
Its a pattern and shouldn't shock anybody. This is not talked about in American History class.
As somebody said Naomi Klein earlier this week -
"The extreme LEFT has been made to take ownership of their failed ideology"
(Communism, Socialism, etc)
"The Right has not been made to take ownership of its failure"
With this world wide economic meltdown, maybe, FINALLY with Obama as the leader we can again make companies accountable to their customers and make Government work for the PEOPLE, not Big Business, Not Wall Street, Not Special or Extreme interest.
It will be a very slow and painful process and lives will be lost in the battle, but it HAS to happen. We can't let them build it all up and then let it breakdown and have Government give them a handout for wrong-doing. It makes very little sense to anybody how Wall Street gets bailed out, but the average voter/citizen isn't.
Europeans take this for granted but for once I rather my worry about the Government increasing our taxes slightly to continue paying for our health care system and educational system that is otherwise ultra low cost or free, entitled just like Social Security.
And not when we'll stop out spending every country in the world 2 times over on the military. Just cutting that budget by a 1/3rd would pay for all the social programs Obama wants.
That is going to be easier said than done. Corporations had power in America well before W showed up. The gap between rich and poor widened during the Clinton administration, it continued the pattern during W. I doubt this will improve under Obama, if anything he is becoming more establishment, I could see him become more pressured to adopt more conservative views, especially the pro-Israel lobby in America will be all over him like peanut butter on bread. He picked Joe Biden as his VP, and he is as Washington as usual as they come.
The reality is that Europe is moving away from America, I will bet in a decade NATO will not exist, the whole Transatlantic alliance was undone by W. The kind of social programs that Europe has and their system would not work well in a heterogeneous country like the USA. This economic crisis is now spreading into Europe, the most severe since the 1930s, so don't assume that
Europe will continue in its current direction.
In Germany for example, a far right party known as the NPD, a more modern version of the Nazi party is gaining power in the former East Germany. Austria is seeing the same. The far right will be gaining serious ground in Europe, especially with a sour European economy, Islamic terrorism, threats from Russia and Iran, count on it.
China and Russia will exert influence all over Asia. Already many key nations in the Pacific are turning towards more friendly relations with the Chinese. Most notably Japan, which was once the mortal enemy of China.
We can bicker on this for hours. Bottom line is we only thought we didn't have much of a choice in 2004. Absolutely unbelievable that the choices got worse. I guess I will vote for McCain as being an oil industry employee I think I am safer there but by a very small margin. Either way we are screwed, it has been that way for years. The working man has no party.
Sadly you are right, the Democrats have done little for the poor and disadvantaged of America, they say they will do things but then once in power, they forget where they come from. Look at Hilary and Bill, living a life of luxury in New York. Obama's net worth will baloon to some ridiculously high figures, he even gets Xmas cards from major celebs, sure Tom Cruise is just like the rest of us. If you want a more fair society, I suggest just leaving the US and migrate to the EU, Canada, Australia/NZ. I did it in 2000 when times were generally much better than now.
These days Asia is becoming the apple of my eye. The amount of progress and development that is occurring at such a rapid rate in that part of the world is astounding. People just have to get used to the fact that America's hey days are over. Oh well, another chapter in the history of mankind is coming to a close. Its a general pattern of history, an unpopular subject, but rings true even in this interconnected global world.
CB is right. Several of the more exclusive Manhattan private schools now offer Mandarin on the curriculum. Here in Colombia it's becoming common, students are now required to take English, and also offered French German and Mandarin, and not just at the exclusive joints either, but even in the poorer neighborhoods.
It seems now that its time to start learning Mandarin Chinese. Hindi will probably also become more useful as that is another growing giant.
[QUOTE=Beavis]We can bicker on this for hours. Bottom line is we only thought we didn't have much of a choice in 2004. Absolutely unbelievable that the choices got worse. I guess I will vote for McCain as being an oil industry employee I think I am safer there but by a very small margin. Either way we are screwed, it has been that way for years. The working man has no party.[/QUOTE]
To each his own and honestly do you think Obama would have gotten this far if he had -
A) Adopted the typical positions of a 60's Civil Rights Activist?
B) Took Jimmy Carter's Populace position, in which the Blue Dogs and other Corp owned Dems then put the Super Delegate process in place to PREVENT such a thing from happening again!
He's gotten this far by having a mainly centric position. C'mon you guys aren't really that stupid to think he could have come out "Blacker" than the Ace of Spades and gotten this far????
They attack him for listening to Ludacris for CS!
Look the Dems do better overall. CBGB glosses over the FACT that Clinton's Populace position was CHANGED by Greenspan and others shortly after his first day in office and INFORMED him he wasn't going to have the money in the budget to do a National Health Care system and the Tax Cuts for the Middle he wanted. Greenspan said, the only thing promise you can keep from your run up to the presidency is reduce the national debt.
You can argue the tiny bits if you want, like if the books were cooked by Greenspan, Robert Reich and Others from his cabinet or not.
The point was Bill Clinton was angry he wasn't going to be able too keep his promises...
W. and Regan were puppets for the real agenda of the Neo Conservatives and Project New American Century.
This is the 2nd time conservatives have put the country into the toilet!
McCain is done like a Christmas Turkey for his White Trash Rally Outbust and for Palin the Liar fanning the flames; thinly veiled racial attacks and Obama's numbers just keep heading North. Wed's final debate will nail it and 70-75% of the country will end up voting in this election, because "Its the Economy Again Stupid!"
Funny about voting for McSain because you're employeed by BP, Royal Dutch Shell, Chevron, Total, Getty or Occidental. That's like voting for McCain because your employed by Raytheon.... Support the Troops huh? Farce homie, a total Farce.
Nothing was WORST than W being in office! Well maybe Hoover but that's for another thread.
I am not a Republican, I just know for a fact that the Democrats are not the working man's friend either. When the vote for military action was passed, a majority of the Democrats, including Hilary C and John Kerry voted for the invasion. On many issues they water down their ambitious programs. The US will never have the kind of social safety net that people in Western Europe, Australia, and Canada enjoy.
Also equal blame has to placed on Americans for their own bad habits. People live high on the hog in America, live well above their means, go into debt. Americans also buy into the stupidity on network and Cable TV with all those "reality" shows about rich people and try to emulate those people. Lets face it people like Lauren Conrad, Brooke Hogan, and Paris Hilton do not represent the average American. Now people are blaming the banks for enticing them to live on credit. The door swings both ways. I have seen the way Europeans and Australians live, and they are much more conscious of not going overboard, although some Aussies lately have become Americanized, still buying things on credit is still somewhat a taboo in Oz compared to the US, there is even a chain of electronics stores that offers discounts to customers that pay for purchases in cash. Australians know that when you finance a car for example, you do not own the vehicle, the bank owns it.
Tom Brokaw asked a tricky question, about how American ability to influence the world will change during a time of economic slowdown. McCain completely avoided the question while Obama indirectly said that the US power is in decline. Obama will win but the damage from the last eight years will be very difficult to overcome. Due the ease of communications most people around the world will know that nearly half of the US will disagree with Obama anyway. World leaders are now becoming aware of the wide swings in ideology in the American executive office, that is why many countries are looking to limit US power, and why the world is becoming multipolar.
I still like Obama more, I was a passenger on a jet that was about to crash, I would like a pilot that could complete a soft landing. Obama is that pilot. McCain and Palin are clueless nimrods that would send that plane into a fiery crash. This twat talks family values yet her daughter gets knocked up by some punk. I was also shocked at some of the moronic things people at McCain rallies said, there was one middle aged woman who said Obama is an Arab, it reminded me of why I moved out of the US, as I said its people like that woman who have collectively created the mess that exists today.
[QUOTE=Jelly Donut]The United States hit the depths of the Great Depression in 1932-1933 and by 1945 it's global position as a superpower was relatively greater than at any time before and, some might say, any time since. So, it's difficult to say a financial crisis indicates predestination of anything.[/QUOTE]
Well said. In fact financial crisis and depression will normally predestine better economic policy - the election of Liberal Democrats and the return of proper redistributionist Keynesianism.
Well, we shall soon find out.
[QUOTE=Opebo]Well said. In fact financial crisis and depression will normally predestine better economic policy - the election of Liberal Democrats and the return of proper redistributionist Keynesianism.[/QUOTE]
My point was more about trying to predict the future. I would not hazard a vocal guess at what the stock market is going to do tomorrow, who is going win the next election or what the configuration of global power will be in 20 years. I don't romantize economic ideas or politicians (unless they have been dead for a very long time).
"Not that I condone fascism, or any -ism for that matter. -Ism's in my opinion are not good. A person should not believe in an -ism, he should believe in himself." - Ferris Bueller
It's not obvious to me (hanging out in my swing state) that increasing taxes or more protectionism is going to help move the US economy forward. The history of the 1930's suggests those kinds of policies are bad ideas. Anyway, we already redistribute huge amounts of money through the US government, far more than we did during the 1930's. The whole sub-prime thing was about as redistributionist as it gets.
In my experience, redistributing money through government hurts people when they expect or feel they are entitled to it. I heard this one AW recently - "If I can only get into public housing all be all set". That's a person who does not believe in herself. I don't see that as an attitude that's going to get the country on the right track.
Contrast that attitude with, say, a doctor who works her way through college and medical school and post-medical school training. She puts in years of effort toward a difficult goal, accumulating massive debt on the way. As things are right now, she pays a disproportionate part of her income toward Federal taxes, but the blue Congress (and O) wants her to pay more. When you increase taxes, it kills [i]something[/i] off, government takes it's cut, but it's not always the case that something good comes of the transfer.
So, anyway, thanks for the "well said", but it's not clear to me that a better economic policy is waiting in the wings.