General Info

I guess the best place for this discussion is under "Special Interests -
Viagra" but since we are here, I will put in my 2 cents worth.

I do find Viagra somewhat desensitizing, so it is a mixed blessing.
Yes, I feel like a man of steel, but sometimes with no happy ending.
So better for the girl, but a mixed blessing for me.

Thus it is most useful when you are trying to impress or please the girl.
But also useful if you are trying to perform in imperfect circumstances.
I started taking them when my wife was pretty non-responsive -
in part because she was not doing much to get me going, so I needed a boost;
and in part because I thought rocking her world might change her attitude,
which it did. Now I mix it up judiciously, no pills for normal pleasure,
but a little boost every now and then to spice things up.

I also found the little blue pills useful when stepping out.
Initially a nervous philanderer, I blew a couple of opportunities
by drinking too much or being otherwise too nervous to perform.
The blue pill gives you a real boost and more confidence.
Don't discount the placebo effect.

The other benefit is that Viagra tends to extend your staying power,
post-climax. So if you are banging a girlfriend, more chance to keep
giving her joy after your own happy ending. But this may not be a good
thing if you are using a condom - you may be tempted to continue
pumping and risk the thing coming off or spilling.

But being superman is less essential if it is her job to please me - if she is a pro.
Nevertheless, I took some Vitamin V when visiting an FKK for the first time.
I wanted to make sure that I could fully take advantage of the experience.
Viagra does make you last longer and reload faster. After 15 years of
marriage, I no longer know how often I CAN do it in a few hours -
I am lucky to get once in the evening and once in the morning.
Thus, given the desensitizing effect of Vitamin V combined with
the less-than-ideal early morning offerings at the Palace, I had to
upgrade to BBBJs from both women to be certain of a happy ending.

But it was also kind of ego-boosting to have a girl come onto me,
and for me to put her off by saying I had just finished a session
and needed time to recharge, then for her to slip her hand into
my robe and exclaim that clearly I was ready to go already!

But in an ideal world, the pro would be responsible for making
Mr Happy happy, and I would leave enhancers for when I needed to perform.

Overall, I would say that Cialas has less of a de-sensitizing effect than Viagra,
and is of course longer lasting, but there can be other side effects.

[QUOTE=Willem2]We don't do that ([url]www.ijsberenforum.com[/url]).

And if it is necessarily we will open a french corner till they are back online.[/QUOTE]No need, they're back.

Hi everybody,

As you can now see, youppie is back on line. You can reach the first page to logon.

The moderators have decide to close the forum in order to make some investigations about what did exactly happened.

We hope to reopen the forum very soon (it should take about a few hours).

Thanks for your understanding.

A number of you have commented on the biggest problem for scientific assessment in this area. It is hard to imagine a measured outcome which would be more susceptible to the placebo effect. Your mood, your physiological state, your immediate stimulation, your response to her response, obvious side effects (like flushing) which "prove" to you it's working, etc etc etc.

Nonetheless it is obvious these drugs work, the effect is just too clear.

So I'll just add a bit about the pharmacology, since I do drug discovery/development work for a pharma company. A big one. One which makes one of these medicines, but I'll stop there. My background is chemistry.

To Jackyo's question, it is no mystery why Cialis works longer. It has the longest half life. All drugs must be cleared from the body one way or another, whether directly through kidneys or bile, or by being metabolized ie chemically changed to a form which in turn can be excreted, or some combination of all that. Also it's a very insoluble compound in water, which means a dose is dissolved/absorbed for as long as the drug passes through the stomach and intestines. Probably, a significant portion of any dose is not absorbed. Still, if you take a bigger dose, you absorb more because there is more in your stomach.

This kind of relates to the nature of its effect. It's absorbed more slowly, so it takes a while to build up. Once it's there it stays around. So it makes sense that an effective dose is perceived as more gentle. You wouldn't want to induce a bigger effect because it persists too long.

By the way, those properties also make it easy to develop a once-a-day low-dose formulation, which has just been approved, I believe. For those who "anticipate having interactions more than once a week". LOL. When I read that, I thought, heck, I "anticipate" having sex dozens of times daily, as do practically all men, whether they hobby or not. But before I started hobbying, I succeeded in having sex maybe 2-4 times a month, compared to 2-4 times per week recently. As I've noted in other posts, this includes far more sex at home than I've had in years. Maybe a lady on Tuesday and another on Friday, then Sat and Sun at home basking in the afterglow. And I never use PEs at home.

In contrast, Viagra has a sharper effect because it has a much shorter half life. For me, I can usually feel flushing in about 30 min and peak effect is around 2 hours. But the half life is reasonable, so some effect of it persists for up to 5 hours. I should mention that I don't have ED, and I usually take half of a 100 mg pill. Don't like to take more because I don't like the flushing etc side effects.

At the other end of the scale is Levitra, which has the shortest half life of the three. This comes on really strong (a friend of mine who uses it says it's almost immediate, like 10-20 min for peak effect), but won't last as long. Again it makes sense it has the biggest "punch" because, for a dose to be effective, you'll have a stronger peak effect to have enough stick around in your body long enough to enjoy the consequences.

Regarding desensitization, I was interested to see Duralong's report and also check that ISG PE forum. My friends have mentioned this and I didn't quite believe it, because that side effect is not in the scientific efficacy data (as far as I know, I don't pretend to be an expert). I was thinking about this and wondering whether that's because the clinical studies concentrated on ED patients, who of course are happy to be able to do what they've had trouble doing. Most of the studies, since these have to be well controlled, required married men or those in "committed" relationships. [Would our community say monogamy promotes ED? . I would] But in using these as a "drug of abuse", which can be defined as using something when you're actually not sick or below the norm, you can easily compare how it feels with and without.

For me, I'd say the desensitization wasn't dramatic enough to notice at first, because all those other variables mean I can still come quickly on Viagra or be laboring to finish (but still hard) without it. But now I perceive that within all that "noise" there is a desensitization effect. Is it real or have we all just convinced ourselves we'll have this problem" I do know, for sure, that when I meet a girl and start wondering if I'll be able to perform with her (maybe I feel she's just too beautiful or too hardcore for me) then that is exactly when I run into problems finishing.

OK, maybe I should have posted this in the PE section, but there has been an interesting discussion here.

Hi! First time poster. I'm planning my first visit to a couple FKK clubs in November. My question is do the German speaking girls prefer the Sie or Du form? (e.g., Wollen sie mine cock suck? etc. etc.). My German is very rusty but I figure I can get by...!

Thanks to all the posters, this forum is the best. I will visit at least Oase and then Bernds while I'm there.

Interesting comments here and appropriate I would say as the use of performance enhancers I would guess is quite common among the FKK enthusiasts. This is just speculation on my part.

My own experience with these types of drugs is rather limited. Some years back, just before I left for Thailand, I was given 4 V's by a friend who wanted me to maximize my enjoyment in the bars of Bangkok. I split each tablet into two and so I took the drug 8 times in total.

What I enjoyed was the certainty that when I wanted it, the erection would be there. And what an erection! No semi-floppers here. It was literally like being 16 years old again. And condoms? No problem. Rolled right on like being applied to a broom handle.

What I did not like was the side effects. I found that the pills made me feel quite unpleasant, flushing, a persistent headache around my forehead and the aforementioned lack of sensitivity and difficulty finishing. Perhaps all these effects can not be attributed to the V as I was (perhaps irresponsibly) using these drugs purely for recreational purposes and was at the same time drinking cheap Thai beer and smoking rather to many cigs. So I can not say, and indeed think it unlikely, that it was just the V causing the lack of sensation.

Over the past two years I have done my mongering here in Berlin Germany almost exclusively at bordellos though with the occasional escort and late night trip to a sex kino for a booty call. I am now pushing 50 years and my experience with erections is that they are no longer in any way guaranteed in any given situation.

In general I have decided though not to go the way of using performance enhancers for several reasons. Perhaps the main reason is that in my experience of recreational drug use, and in my youth this was extensive, the body is, in it’s functions, quite lazy. As a result, when we take a drug(V) to produce a result (erection) the body pretty quickly figures out that it no longer has to do what it is meant/built to do and thus a subtle dependence is created. I am not sure what the studies made by the drug companies would say of this observation (probably unfounded) but this is my, admittedly anecdotal, experience across a wide range of drugs used, as I say, recreationally.

And let me also say that I have often been sorely tempted to get hold of some viagra. The fact is (for me) that when I visit a bordello and pay for some time with a young lovely I want to be able to “perform”. And that is not always what happens. However, and this I might ad conforms pretty much to my general philosophy of life, whit I find is that what does happen can some how ad to the depth of my experience even if it is not what I really “want” to have happen.

By way of illustration-one of my most powerful/fun experiences in recent memory occurred with a young lady who I saw on the KD website and spent considerable time and effort trying to see. I just loved her picture on the website and I made several appointments with her which were scuttled when she failed to show up for work or ended up having a previous client extend the session.

When finally we did hook up, for initially a half hour session, she did not disappoint. Physically or as a companion. That is spending time with her was great fun for me and we had one of those nice connections that can happen occasionally with a working girl.

However, when it came to the sex, something was just not happening for me. I could not get an erection with her no matter what we did. (And I even visited another KD girl, to reassure myself that all was well with little A, and everything worked perfectly.) But with this girl-nothing though I enjoyed immensely her company.

The first half hour session we had something happened which did kind of blow my mind though. When it became apparent that little Angus was not going to fully cooperate she simply climbed on board, inserted my soft dick in her pussy and just sat there doing “something” with her pussy. It felt good and it took about 3-4 minutes before I had one of the most powerful orgasms that I can remember. Whatever her “technique” I did recognize it as tantric in nature.

Unfortunately, when I tired to get her to repeat this feat, she could not as I truly believe that she was not really aware of what she was “doing” the first time and the pressure to repeat the process kind of killed the possibility.

The reason I tell this rather long story is to illustrate that when something fails to happen, something else is always possible and often that something else is better than the something originally desired.

And ultimately, with this girl who I saw several times, little A got his mojo back and the last time we met she received a proper rodgering with little A in full splendor!

Angus, thanks for the reflections, which are useful to me because I've been thinking through the same issues. I won't comment right now because I'm getting ready to leave for a business trip to Germany today. What a blessing because I'll be playing before and after the business days. See the ISG team building event planned for Bernd's tomorrow (Nov 3rd), under Travel Plans.

But I'm thinking through these same issues and plan to experiment some with using and not using the PEs. Truth be told, I'm in the normal range and use half a V just for assurance I don't have worry about my response. I'm 54 but still have sex regularly at home without using anything. Time to get back to doing that in P4P, at least when I'm not trying to push myself like the third time in a day at a Sauna club.

[QUOTE=Camster6969]Hi! First time poster. I'm planning my first visit to a couple FKK clubs in November. My question is do the German speaking girls prefer the Sie or Du form? (e.g., Wollen sie mine cock suck? etc. etc.). My German is very rusty but I figure I can get by...!

Thanks to all the posters, this forum is the best. I will visit at least Oase and then Bernds while I'm there.[/QUOTE]

Hey Cam,

Forgive me for giggling a little when I read your post. And I promise that I am not laughing at you. Truth is, I actually remember that I "sieszt" my first few p4p gals in Deutschland. Actually had one give me a lecture that formalities could be dropped if two people were gonna be naked and screwing.

"Dutz" girls in the clubs. In fact, "dutz" Gents in the clubs as well. Even in heuty-teuty places like Berlin (where one can still find that old Prussian formality) and Munich. You're absolutely OK doing this. In fact you will avoid the possible perception that you are a nervous newbie.

"Wollen sie mine cock suck?" More than likely the gals are use to hearing "less polite" commands and requests. In the Oase Kino once I heard a dude tell Michelle while she had her hinder in his face and her head in his lap, "Ohhhh ja! Saugen, du Drecksau!"

Cheers,

Dedalus

Hello All,

I'm a newbie here and I plan on spending my next birthday in Germany. Exploring old haunts if they still exist. Chuckle, I was in the Mannheim area in the U. S. Army back in 1969/70. I wonder if those bars I used to frequent are still there.

Since I make use of the p4p facilities here in Houston, TX. I started doing research on the availability of those things. My research invariably led to me discovering ISG and thence, to the FKK forums. Doing my research, I got into this forum 'General Info'. And noted the post of Angus and Johnny Z a short time back. This leads me to share some information about things I've discovered as alternatives to the prescription 'enhancers' that the drug companies are so avid about promoting.

A short bit of history to add some 'color' to who I am and the experience I've had in this area. About 10 years ago, when I was 51, my wife (now ex) mentioned to me that the rigidity that she had been so pleased about with me. Was not so significant anymore. Being an engineer, I did my research and ended up with a prescription for 'V' (aka Blue Thunder) and things were much better.

Alas, as Angus noted. There are some side effects with 'V', notably the headache and different sensations. The headache is much more pronounced when one imbibes alcoholic beverages. Well, dangit. If I'm out and looking, I tend to have a beer or two. So, while 'V' is fine. The side effects, not to mention overall cost is somewhat unattractive!

So, over the past 10 years, there's been some 'V' in my medicine cabinet. About 3 years ago, I was talking with a friend of mine about the lethargy and tiredness that seemed to becoming a chronic condition for me. The friend, Randy, is very much into natural supplements. Randy mentioned that perhaps I should look into an herb called Tongkat Ali. As Randy explained it to me. As we age, our bodies produce less and less free testosterone. Tongkat Ali stimulates the body to produce more of the substances the body requires to produce testosterone. Such that you can't OD on it. If you take too much, the body eliminates it. I figured it was worth a shot (try). So, I got some in a product called LJ100. I can't speak to how it will perform for others, however, for myself. I now would not be without it. My energy level, overall stamina (not speaking in a bedroom sense), and general feelings of well being are more like when I was in my 30s/40s. Chuckle, I'm also reminded of a song I heard where the singer was talking to a portion of his body and lamenting "You used to watch me when I shaved! ". I resembled that remark. Now, at 61. Sometimes when I wake in the morning. He's standing at attention.

Another substance that Randy mentioned was that 'V' and the other products. Assist in 'micro' circulation. We were talking about the pharmaceutical companies. And that long ago, the FDA had one of the companies do a study on a tree bark product called Yohimbe which was being touted as a 'ED' remedy. The study was performed and the result stated was that the Yohimbe produced no notieable improvement. Note: about 6 months later, the company that ran the study released a product for 'ED'. And it contained Yohimbine (the refined product of the Yohimbe bark).

I searched Amazon for Yohimbe. And started laughing. My son, who was living with me at the time. On summer break from college. Asked "What's so funny? ". I showed him that when I did a search for Yohimbe on Amazon, one of the first products that showed up was called 'Extenz'. Which I had seen advertised on the TV (for 'ED').

I've been using these supplements for a couple of years now. With very *acceptable* results. No headache or side effects that I've noticed EXCEPT. When working with my younger coworkers, they have commented that they wonder how an 'old man' of 60+ has the stamina to work longer hours and be more productive than they can. As I stated, I now feel more like I did when I was in my 30s/40s.

So, for those who might prefer to find alternatives to the 'V', 'C', etc. I would suggest you might give Tongkat Ali and Yohimbine an experimental try.

All the Best!. And happy *punting*,

Carl

I recently switched from Viagra to Cialis, and have noticed the longer action on last weeks visits. Being in my sixties, I am able to come several times now and as a matter of fact, I took Cialis on Tuesday morning, spent that day at Oase and the next day at Bernd's and was able to spend exciting times with 7 beautiful women; I will report about that in other forums. Ialso have less side effects with Cialis such as headaches and dry nose. I do need my time in between sessions to recover, but that gives a great chance to visit and enjoy the company of the ladies.

It is time for me to contribute to this forum, as it has helped me tremendously with my mongering in Germany.

I recently switched from Viagra to Cialis, as I experience less side effects (headache, dryness of nose) with Cialis, and due to its prolonged effect.

I have now been to FKK's 4 times (will report about that in the proper threads), and would not be able to accomplish what I like to do without the PE. Being in my early sixties and coming four times one day in a twelve hour period, and three more times the next day with only one pill is really amazing, and very satisfying!

Cooper69

[QUOTE=Dedalus]Hey Cam,

Forgive me for giggling a little when I read your post. And I promise that I am not laughing at you. Truth is, I actually remember that I "sieszt" my first few p4p gals in Deutschland. Actually had one give me a lecture that formalities could be dropped if two people were gonna be naked and screwing.

"Dutz" girls in the clubs. In fact, "dutz" Gents in the clubs as well. Even in heuty-teuty places like Berlin (where one can still find that old Prussian formality) and Munich. You're absolutely OK doing this. In fact you will avoid the possible perception that you are a nervous newbie.

"Wollen sie mine cock suck?" More than likely the gals are use to hearing "less polite" commands and requests. In the Oase Kino once I heard a dude tell Michelle while she had her hinder in his face and her head in his lap, "Ohhhh ja! Saugen, du Drecksau!"

Cheers,

Dedalus[/QUOTE]
I agree!

Its the same thing in French, by the way. You come across as uptight and standoffish if you can't come to terms with informality. You don't want to come across as a dweeb.

You don't want to be saying "Ficken Sie mich!" when "Fick mich!" rolls off the tongue so much easier. (Second person, singular, formal versus second person, singular, informal, verb in the imperative form, direct object "mich" declined in the Akkusativ).

Gentlemen,

Can anybody share any information about this club? It i8s not far away from World. Search over ISG haven't shoved any results.

Thanks for responce

AAaahhh that great feeling of knowing I'm about to spend of couple of days FKK'ing.

[QUOTE=Carl R]Another substance that Randy mentioned was that 'V' and the other products. Assist in 'micro' circulation. We were talking about the pharmaceutical companies. And that long ago, the FDA had one of the companies do a study on a tree bark product called Yohimbe which was being touted as a 'ED' remedy. The study was performed and the result stated was that the Yohimbe produced no notieable improvement. Note: about 6 months later, the company that ran the study released a product for 'ED'. And it contained Yohimbine (the refined product of the Yohimbe bark).

I searched Amazon for Yohimbe. And started laughing. My son, who was living with me at the time. On summer break from college. Asked "What's so funny? ". I showed him that when I did a search for Yohimbe on Amazon, one of the first products that showed up was called 'Extenz'. Which I had seen advertised on the TV (for 'ED').

I've been using these supplements for a couple of years now. With very *acceptable* results. No headache or side effects that I've noticed EXCEPT. When working with my younger coworkers, they have commented that they wonder how an 'old man' of 60+ has the stamina to work longer hours and be more productive than they can. As I stated, I now feel more like I did when I was in my 30s/40s.

So, for those who might prefer to find alternatives to the 'V', 'C', etc. I would suggest you might give Tongkat Ali and Yohimbine an experimental try.

All the Best!. And happy *punting*,

Carl[/QUOTE]
Someone suggested Yohimbe to me once on another forum. So I go to a local supplements chain store and find it on sale.

I take one pill and it was one of the worst experiences I've ever had.

I tossed and turned that evening. I had weird sensations: an irregular heartbeat, a throbbing headache. It was like overdosing on caffeine.

I took it alone by myself as an experiment and there was absolutely no desired effect.

So if anyone wants to buy a hundred pills of the stuff, let me know. I still have them and won't touch it again.