American Politics

[QUOTE=Jelly Donut]My point was more about trying to predict the future. I would not hazard a vocal guess at what the stock market is going to do tomorrow, who is going win the next election or what the configuration of global power will be in 20 years. I don't romantize economic ideas or politicians (unless they have been dead for a very long time).

"Not that I condone fascism, or any -ism for that matter. -Ism's in my opinion are not good. A person should not believe in an -ism, he should believe in himself." - Ferris Bueller

It's not obvious to me (hanging out in my swing state) that increasing taxes or more protectionism is going to help move the US economy forward. The history of the 1930's suggests those kinds of policies are bad ideas. Anyway, we already redistibute huge amounts of money through the US government, far more than we did during the 1930's. The whole sub-prime thing was about as redistributionist as it gets.

In my experience, redistributing money through government hurts people when they expect or feel they are entitled to it. I heard this one AW recently - "If I can only get into public housing all be all set". That's a person who does not believe in herself. I don't see that as an attitude that's going to get the country on the right track.

Contrast that attitude with, say, a doctor who works her way through college and medical school and post-medical school training. She puts in years of effort toward a difficult goal, accumulating massive debt on the way. As things are right now, she pays a disproportionate part of her income toward Federal taxes, but the blue Congress (and O) wants her to pay more. When you increase taxes, it kills [i]something[/i] off, government takes it's cut, but it's not always the case that something good comes of the transfer.

So, anyway, thanks for the "well said", but it's not clear to me that a better economic policy waiting in the wings.[/QUOTE]

I could relate to the latter as it describes my own life, working hard was just what I did. Still a lot of people are the former and to me that is not a good sign. Anyhow we cannot predict the future but history can hint at a lot of possible things that might happen down the road.

Obama or McCain, I am certain Americans are going to pay higher taxes with this nearly $1 Trillion bailout. Its ridiculous how now the elites in the Ivory Tower that is Wall Street want the government to help them from sinking, at the same time they support policies that screw over everyday working people.
America became a great and strong power because of its massive middle class, the greatest social cushion between rich and poor in history, which allowed it so much stability. Europe was the opposite during the first half of the century and hence its political problems were severe during those times. Not all poor people are looking to milk the government, not everyone is fortunate in life.

McCain is too old and if he becomes unfit to perform his duties as President, America will be stuck with Palin, who will probably be worse than Bush. McCain only picked her in a lame attempt to get former Hilary supporters. Now that plan is burning down as the economic crisis continues to unfold. The policies of the last eight years have been absolutely horrific, if they continue, its definitely going to lead to a disaster.

[QUOTE=Dickhead]I never voted for Bush and I never borrowed a dime in my life (except for mortgages that were well within my ability to re-pay, and which I did pay off). I never lived beyond my means. I never carried a credit card balance. I never had a car loan. I saved money every single paycheck since I started working at 14.

I'm ruined now anyway. I'll never be able to retire.

Who was in power when the Great Depression started? Republicans. Who was in power during the '73-'74 bear market? Republicans. Who was in power in the '87 stock market crash? Republicans.

Does anyone see a pattern here?[/QUOTE]

Many of the underlying tenets of American political partys have evolved to the point where they bear no resmeblance to their original forms. The Republican party of today does not resemble the GOP pre-Nixon...think the old Gipper...the icon of conservatism...he used to be a liberal democrat who most famously stated:" I didn't leave the democratic party, it left me."

[QUOTE=DJ FourMoney]
Funny about voting for McSain because you're employeed by BP, Royal Dutch Shell, Chevron, Total, Getty or Occidental. That's like voting for McCain because your employed by Raytheon.... Support the Troops huh? Farce homie, a total Farce.

Nothing was WORST than W being in office! Well maybe Hoover but that's for another thread.[/QUOTE]


All Politics is Local.

Look, even though I would not have the gall to state this outside of an internet forum, and as selfish and myopic as this is:

I think God for George W. Bush's War in Iraq. And I am not the only one that thinks this.

Iraq saved me...at one time I lost my USG job, my wife turned her back on me, my pockets were empty, I was 25k in debt with no way to pay it, my family damn near disowned me, and I had no purpose in life.

I took a job with a dirt bag defense contractor soley on basis of a resume--no interview--hire, wiped out my debt in three months....25k is a lot of money for me to come up with in cash, but not in Iraq,...got my security clearance in order, went back to Iraq with a consulting firm at an outrageous salary, came home and worked for said firm, gained invaluable experience which translated into more assignments in other parts of the world, and now I am getting 1-3 job offers a month all over the world for great money and even an greater benefits package.

All because of Iraq.

Selfish, yes, but I'd vote for W again if I could.

I'd love to see a brotha from 116th and Broadway in the WH :)..but even more so I want to keep the good times rolling for myself.

Fucked up. Maybe..but it is what it is.

[QUOTE=DirkDingy]All Politics is Local.

Look, even though I would not have the gall to state this outside of an internet forum, and as selfish and myopic as this is:

I think God for George W. Bush's War in Iraq. And I am not the only one that thinks this.

Iraq saved me...at one time I lost my USG job, my wife turned her back on me, my pockets were empty, I was 25k in debt with no way to pay it, my family damn near disowned me, and I had no purpose in life.

I took a job with a dirt bag defense contractor soley on basis of a resume--no interview--hire, wiped out my debt in three months....25k is a lot of money for me to come up with in cash, but not in Iraq,...got my security clearance in order, went back to Iraq with a consulting firm at an outrageous salary, came home and worked for said firm, gained invaluable experience which translated into more assignments in other parts of the world, and now I am getting 1-3 job offers a month all over the world for great money and even an greater benefits package.

All because of Iraq.

Slefish, yes, but I'd vote for W again if I could.

I'd love to see a brotha from 116th and Broadway in the WH :)..but even more so I want to keep the good times rolling for myself.

Fucked up. Maybe..but it is what it is.[/QUOTE]

Me and you don’t agree on a lot of things but we do have something in common here.

It's unfortunate, but a lot of wealth is built on the misery and suffering of others.: Take the Russian Oligarchs;they robbed the state's coffers to become billiionaires as the old babushkas were starving. 2. How about the wall street execs...they destroyed the lives of many americans by knowingly misleading them but they got their million dollars bonuses and their unemployment will be mollified with their golden parachutes..take the Kennedy family, Fitz Kennedy got rich by trading with the Nazis, operating speakesays, and bootlegging...citibank, the bagman for the Nazis, many other european firms got rich by appropriating jewish property and wealth... AIG, got rich off the African Slave trade....there are too many examples to count...the best way to go from zero to hero in a flash is to be in a position to take advantage of other's misfortunes.

Well, yes, Dirk, wars are good for creating full employment. That's one reason recent Republican administrations have typically started them. Wars are good for spending one's way out of a depression (Opebo's Keynesian economics) as well. But let's not forget the "peace dividend" after the collapse of the former Soviet Union. That was a big catalyst for the economic boom of the 1990s which enabled many of us to monger profligately and internationally.

But, we fucked that all up and it is all over now so it is time to put the shoulder to the wheel and the nose to the grindstone again. When the revolution finally comes we'll get rid of all that shit but I'll be dead by then so good luck to those mongers who remain. It sure was fun while it lasted.

[QUOTE=DirkDingy]Look, even though I would not have the gall to state this outside of an internet forum, and as selfish and myopic as this is:

I think God for George W. Bush's War in Iraq. And I am not the only one that thinks this.
Fucked up. Maybe..but it is what it is.[/QUOTE]Even a US military victory in Iraq... which can only be measured by withdrawing from Iraq and leaving behind a stable pro-US government and infrastructure to support US investments there... will have come at a tremendous cost. The military can handle material and personnel losses... the cost the nation has to bear however has to be measured not only financially, but politically and socially as well.

Just as you fondly look back at what personal good the Iraq war has brought you, W can also look back at the war and hope that it brought some personal profit for himself. It did the nation no good, and the nation should have been his (and our) priority.

Maybe history will judge our times differently than I do now, but from here it looks like a colossal cock-up.

BTW RE: contracting... I doubt the US government will be able to continue it's free-spending ways re: contracting. I considered it awhile myself (and have met lots of ex-military, ex-LE guys who are working in Iraq/Astan/Africa), but wonder how the US will be able to afford paying these companies. The costs are incredible.

[QUOTE=Dickhead]Well, yes, Dirk, wars are good for creating full employment. That's one reason recent Republican administrations have typically started them. Wars are good for spending one's way out of a depression (Opebo's Keynesian economics) as well. But let's not forget the "peace dividend" after the collapse of the former Soviet Union. That was a big catalyst for the economic boom of the 1990s which enabled many of us to monger profligately and internationally.

But, we fucked that all up and it is all over now so it is time to put the shoulder to the wheel and the nose to the grindstone again. When the revolution finally comes we'll get rid of all that shit but I'll be dead by then so good luck to those mongers who remain. It sure was fun while it lasted.[/QUOTE]

This is only true when a nation fully mobilizes. The last time we did this was WWII. During WWII all Americans were asked to make sacrifices and contribute to the war effort; W told us to go shopping after 9/11.

This war, with all its outsourcing, has only enhanced the pocketbooks of a few select companies--like kbr, dyncorp, blackwater, saic, etc.

for me, a person works in the international development arena, it provided unique opportunities. many of these companies and their personnel are left leaning and refused to go to Iraq for political as well as operational security issues. this fact, coupled with the sheer size of the programs in Iraq meant that there were vacancies that were not filled with the normal cadre of experienced professionals so many young, smart, but inexperienced people were thrust into jobs which would normally only be filled with sr. development professionals that had long domestic careers before they went abroad--maybe this a bad thing.

once this experience is gained in MSME (Micro Small Medium Enterprise), penions reform, infrastructure. it’s transferable to other development projects elsewhere.

that's what iraq did for me.

There is a big problem with this war being able to stimulate the American economy. The money to fight the war is coming from overseas, its just increasing the national debt. Lowering taxes in a time of war is leading to deficits which is disastrous.
The war in Iraq right now is turning around but I doubt it will continue, its already becoming clear that all Iraq did was pave the way for Iran to become the big player in the region. Despite the Bush Doctrine, nothing has been done about Tehran. The Israelis predict Tehran will go nuclear by next year which contradicts the NIE report that said Tehran abandoned the development of WMD. Most people consider Israeli intelligence to be the best in the world.

[QUOTE=DirkDingy]It's unfortunate, but a lot of wealth is built on the misery and suffering of others.[/QUOTE]

All wealth is [b]by definition[/b] the misery and suffering of others, DD.

[QUOTE=Jelly Donut]My point was more about trying to predict the future. I would not hazard a vocal guess at what the stock market is going to do tomorrow, who is going win the next election or what the configuration of global power will be in 20 years. I don't romantize economic ideas or politicians (unless they have been dead for a very long time).

"Not that I condone fascism, or any -ism for that matter. -Ism's in my opinion are not good. A person should not believe in an -ism, he should believe in himself." - Ferris Bueller

It's not obvious to me (hanging out in my swing state) that increasing taxes or more protectionism is going to help move the US economy forward. The history of the 1930's suggests those kinds of policies are bad ideas. Anyway, we already redistribute huge amounts of money through the US government, far more than we did during the 1930's. The whole sub-prime thing was about as redistributionist as it gets.

In my experience, redistributing money through government hurts people when they expect or feel they are entitled to it. I heard this one AW recently - "If I can only get into public housing all be all set". That's a person who does not believe in herself. I don't see that as an attitude that's going to get the country on the right track.

Contrast that attitude with, say, a doctor who works her way through college and medical school and post-medical school training. She puts in years of effort toward a difficult goal, accumulating massive debt on the way. As things are right now, she pays a disproportionate part of her income toward Federal taxes, but the blue Congress (and O) wants her to pay more. When you increase taxes, it kills [i]something[/i] off, government takes it's cut, but it's not always the case that something good comes of the transfer.

So, anyway, thanks for the "well said", but it's not clear to me that a better economic policy is waiting in the wings.[/QUOTE]

However if you start from today and reduce cost of school that you're only in debt for a short amount of time (maybe 5 years after medical school). Germans for example go to school for free, even to become a doctor but only get paid about $35-40K a year, just because we're "America' you should get paid mid to high six digits for the same job????

America is one of the few places that caring for people can make you rich.... Yet teachers get paid hardly anything and are expect to produce high quality adults.... Hmmm

Okay but you have to remember, I don't recall anybody making $250,000 a year complaining that they pay too much tax. The truth is, most high income Americans AVOID paying taxes the best way they can, sometimes legally, sometimes NOT - See Castroneves

Tax Shelters are very popular, so it hiding your money overseas in the Cayman Islands and Swiss Bank Accounts....

Close those loop holes and THEN you might see some complaining...

But this whole NOTION of not paying taxes I find a bit strange, how else do things in America get done without them??? Most people complain because the Government doesn't WORK for them when they pay taxes. Why do you think the outcry for the original "Bail Out" so large?

That's because the typical Neo-Conservative playbook says trickle down economics work, when intelligent people KNOW better. FDR proved Trickle Up economics works and works WELL. It just doesn't allow somebody to make ridiculous amounts of money for basically pushing paper around, you can still make a good living but ONE Benz is enough.

I don't care how or even why you make alot of money, just don't poo-poo me when I want National Health Care and your taxes will increase SLIGHTLY because of it and you really won't notice it, no reason to complain or even say Republicans are speaking on your behalf....

[QUOTE=Opebo]All wealth is [b]by definition[/b] the misery and suffering of others, DD.[/QUOTE]

No truer words have been spoken....

DD I don't playa hate, you and Daddy got yours from the War because there so few chances to do it the legit way in America because of your skin color.

I was bored and looking through the generally interesting postings of Doctor Skank, which lead me here. I generally ignore most Op-Ed pieces because they aren't worth my time to reply to....but...

In which alternative reality world are you talking about a prosperous China and Russia? Both countries oppress their large working class while the tiny minority elite benefit. The only change is that a slightly larger administrative middle class has emerged. The Russian economy can not survive oil going under $50/barrel – which it is headed to after the election. How many times have their stock markets shut down in the last 30 days? China is a country of what –1.2 billion, where 800 million still live in the same serf like conditions that they have for the last several hundred years.

As far as the rest of what you said I really don’t know where to begin, you seem to be just throwing statements from your own personal ideology out there like they are fact.

The blame for this mess can be squarely placed at the feet of financial deregulation and a US economy stalled by the Bush administration policies. Deregulation, started in the 80’s by RR, continued by GHWB, BC and brought to new levels of obscenity by the W administration. Notice how I didn’t say W himself, who as he has for most of his ‘professional’ life been nothing but a dupe and a front man. The sub prime market collapse was nothing more then a catalyst that brought the Wall Street house of cards down. Just as the credit calls for the margin players in 1929 brought about that crash and the Great Depression.

[QUOTE=CBGBConnisur]Sorry but China and Russia have proved to the world what most in the West have denied. A politically incorrect dictatorship can bring prosperity as both nations show both.

Lets face reality, America has been living high on the hog for too long, and Americans have gotten used to living on credit. The US is the only country in the world where people in "poor" areas can be seen driving Mercedes and BMWs, the rest of the world has to buy them with cash or with far stricter credit terms. Why? Because of auto financing and easy access to credit. In fact when I was in New York there were dealerships in rough areas whose lots werefilled with fairly new high end luxury cars and even the new ones were sold to people with questionable credit.

The same has gone with the housing market, up until recently all you needed was a pulse to get a home loan. Much of those loans were financed by foreigners whose appetite to fund American's way of excess is now starting to run out.

The loosening of credit happened well before the Bush administration showed up, it started in the 1990s. The Bush administration just made the US look like an inconsiderate bully in the eyes of the world which influences how foreigners perceive us when they decide to invest the money that allows the liquidity for us to live high. Now the US has few friends, even long time allies like Australia, Britain, and Japan are now turning their backs on the US to newer rising powers.

The blame is being placed on Bush but the everyday people who voted for him..twice are to blame, even the people who did not vote for him, who lived irresponsibly above their means are to blame for this mess.[/QUOTE]

Oil going to $50 a barrel, maybe but not for long. Even with an Obama administration putting the chances of a military confrontation with Iran as very remote, I bet Israel will step up and there will be a rumble between the two, that will guarantee oil will climb up. Israelis are already preparing for an Obama administration and they will go alone against Iran without the US for the first time in history.

China and Russia are the two of the fastest BRICs countries, the RMB is starting to appreciate against the Dollar, and their economy will still grow 10 percent per annum. This means by 2020, China will have a bigger economy than the US. As far as oppression is concerned, you did not read about the US military will be called in to stop any kind of domestic insurrection if an economic collapse hits the US. America is looking more like a Running Man movie, no I am not living in an alternative reality. Obama will not repeal the Patriot Act, and in reality will use it to finalize Bush's plans to turn the US into full police State.

Obama is going to be left with an economy in ruins and he will become a scapegoat. There are many regions of the US where he is not popular, probably any red state. You should have heard the angry comments made by Republican supporters at McCain rallies.

The Bush administration was able to lower taxes and fight a war because of foreign buyers of US Treasuries, mostly the Saudis and the Chinese.

The long run trend is an increase in the price of oil. I bet by 2018, oil will be at minimum around $300 a barrel. The world reached peak production in the 1970s and now the Asians are set to place increasing stress on the world's resources, there is no way oil will get cheaper, give a break, the stuff is running out and it will be years before the West will break its oil dependence...if ever.

If Americans did not need credit to live large or merely just live, why is Wall Street panicking???

Oh yeah, I have been visiting China regularly over the past several years, I can tell you that while there is a lot of third world poverty, the country is progressing like no other nation in history.

The US is turning into a police state:
[url]http://www.prisonplanet.tv/articles/march2005/170305runningman.htm[/url]

I also got news for you, even though Jorg Haider had an accident you should have heard what Austrians said about this man, they called him a "a good man", Haider was a Nazi sympathizer and most Austrians were upset about his passing. This was the same guy who called former SS Wafen "heroes". NPD is gaining traction in East Germany, Far right groups are gaining power all over Europe. So watch for the EU to turn into facist police state, especially with Islamic terror in Europe, nuclear Iran, and a reinvigorated Russia.

Ron Paul tells it like it is, he ain't living in an "alternate" reality:
[url]http://www.house.gov/paul/congrec/congrec2002/cr062702.htm[/url]

[QUOTE=CBGBConnisur]America is looking more like a Running Man movie, no I am not living in an alternative reality. [/QUOTE]

I would ask CBGB what he was high on so I could sell some and get rich. Except we are all seeing the same writing on the wall and I can read as well as most. CBGB's claims, while out of the infield, are well within the ball park. Regardless of who becomes president, the US, and most of the world, is in for some kind of ride in 2009 and possibly 2010.