Bangkok Reports

[QUOTE=*****man;1953478]There are no truly beautiful girls in the go go bars. [/QUOTE]I think that is a bit suspect. There are some very pretty girls, to nearly the standard of the movie stars/models to my eye, uncommon and hard to find yes, are at least to really cute standard, and really great bodies are not that uncommon at all. The standard of looks of the top 5% of girls in the right selected gogos surpasses the top Oily shop girls quite easily, IMHO.

Or is there an Oily with too many gorgeous girls? I could not find it. Even the whole of Thermae has very limited really pretty girls. Not one "must do" girl met, however in bars I have met the odd girl, I have labelled as a "must do" or bust. One such must do girl in Long Gun, a few years back, was really gorgeous and fab body, finally persuaded her to go with me after several tries, and she turned out to be a dud. Seemed to want to be my buddy in the bar but not fuck at all. She probably only liked young guys. Was useless for me.

In Oilies I only met 3 absolutely "must do" girls over about 5 years. In bars, definitely more "must do" girls than that. Everywhere could have a beautiful girl. It is just the relative rarity. Bar girls make much more money per session, hence that can be expected to attract somewhat more beautiful girls, ignoring the other 90 to 95% of more ordinary girls. Note that the best bargirls are not evenly distributed. Some bars will have a higher share and some bars will have no beautiful girls at all.

For many guys, a very young girl with a good body equals "beautiful". For many guys, a raunchy ugly girl equal "beautiful".

[QUOTE=Syzygies;1953481]I think that is a bit suspect. There are some very pretty girls, to nearly the standard of the movie stars/models to my eye, uncommon and hard to find yes, are at least to really cute standard, and really great bodies are not that uncommon at all. The standard of looks of the top 5% of girls in the right selected gogos surpasses the top Oily shop girls quite easily, IMHO.[/QUOTE]I agree there are some very pretty girls but to compare them to movie stars and models is just silly. If you put some little go go girl in the middle of a group of models she'd stand out like a sore thumb. There are a few oily girls who compare to the top 5% of go go girls and lots of girls in soapies who are better looking and no more expensive.

[QUOTE=*****man;1953478]There are no truly beautiful girls in the go go bars.[/QUOTE]That's your opinion and I would bet you are the only one with it. Maybe change the go go bars you go to but I don't think that would change your opinion.

You just don't like go go bars period.

From your handle you don't respect the people who work there either. Maybe they're not really people to you.

[QUOTE=*****man;1953494]I agree there are some very pretty girls but to compare them to movie stars and models is just silly. If you put some little go go girl in the middle of a group of models she'd stand out like a sore thumb. There are a few oily girls who compare to the top 5% of go go girls and lots of girls in soapies who are better looking and no more expensive.[/QUOTE]In terms of flat out basic good looks, I think there is a go-go bar girl standard and a regular girl standard, with the regular girl standard being much higher than the go-go bar girl standard. As I look around inside many bts or mrt train cars at rush hour, I believe one could easily find 10-15 regular Thai girls who would beat the crap out of the 5 best looking girls who ever worked in Crazy House or Baccara go-go bars in terms of true beauty. Talking about body proportions, facial structure, even features, skin, hair, overall health and fitness. Some of those details get washed out in the glamorous lights of a go-go bar. And need to be.

But in the harsh, unforgiving light of day (or bts / mrt train cars), every flaw or advantage comes out. Yes, one cannot see those regular Thai girls in the nude for a full comparison. But from what I have tasted over the years of regular Thai girls who otherwise look pretty damn good with their clothes on, there aren't many details one couldn't already have foreseen by looking at them wearing tight jeans, shorts or form fitting skirts, baby damage aside (which can be case with go-go bar girls too). But when the hottest go-go dancer in any bar is compared with the least attractive one in that bar, she will shine and stand out like a diamond.

A go-go girl that rates an 8. 5 or a 9 against the other girls in the bar would more likely than not rate no more than a 7 standing next to at least 3 girls riding up the M-level escalator at Terminal 21 this minute. Yes, there might be and probably are some extremely rare exceptions. Extremely rare.

The trickier subject is when we talk about movie stars and models. Having worked many years around movie stars and models (in the USA, that is), it turns out most of those girls would ALSO not compare all that favorably against regular girls walking the streets. Seriously. If you have not been in the business or around those girls very often when they are in regular street clothes, far from the make-up department and without the most flattering light a team of veteran studio technicians can conjure up, that might be hard to believe. But it is true. Chances are you would much rather fuck the girl next door based on her looks alone than the girl you just saw sharing a scene with Tom Cruise or touting toothpaste in a tv ad. Maybe Thai movie stars and models are different in that regard. But probably not.

[QUOTE=Goatscrot;1953386]Think it is just because there are dudes out there who will pay it now. Honestly, when I first moved here most punters were on the same page when it came to price and performance. At least the locals were. And Cowboy was full of locals. Now there are very few expats in the GoGos because they are so expensive. And with the exception of a few places, the GoGos are hurting. But, they did it to themselves. High drink prices, high BFs, and ridiculous prices for the gals alienated the locals which was their bread and butter and in slow times they could always depend on residents. Truthfully BFs, should be no more than 500 Baht, ST 1500 maximum, and drinks not over 120 Baht. If they were serious about doing good business year round this is the pricing structure they would be looking at.

I had a laugh when the dude wrote about the gal in Baccarat who said she did not have a customer in 10 days and then wanted 2500ST. Guess she did not have a customer for 11 days. I would have offered her 1 K with a 500 Baht performance incentive. Why? Because no matter how good looking they are, that is what they are worth. And most guys aren't even getting an hour of fun for this. We sat outside the ST hotel at Nana one night at the average dude was in the hotel with his BF for 25 min. That's sex and two showers! I mean really guys, these are not sophisticated call girls who are uber skilled in the sack, masters of seduction, with great attitudes who know how to take a man up and down several times. They are also not the kind of gals you can take to a nice restaurant without sticking out like a sore thumb. These are simple village gals, most of whom have not even graduated from high school and there are guys willing to make them some of the highest paid people in the country. Get real.[/QUOTE]A few comments in response to Goatscrot's and some of the other recent posts regarding price and looks of the Bangkok P4 P girls:

My first trip to Thailand was in the early 2000's, probably in 2002 or 2003. My recollection is ST at go gos cost around 1,500 baht, with LT being around 2,000 although I suppose it was possible to negotiate lower amounts. Bar fines were around 400 or 500 baht, although my recollection about this is not so clear. Given the official inflation rate in Thailand has averaged somewhere around 3 percent a year since then, perhaps a tad higher, it is probably unrealistic to expect the same prices in baht now, assuming the official inflation rates are not higher than the real inflation rates, which while possible would make little sense.

If one compounds the inflation rate over this period of time, ST would be around 2,200 baht and LT close to 3,000, assuming I am correct that around 13 years ago these cost 1,500 and 2,000 baht, respectively. So, 2,500 for ST is not so far off from what one might predict, although 4,000 or more for LT is. As to oilies, 1,500 for the girl's fee is around seventy percent of what the official inflation rate would have predicted.

So although the vast majority of us would like to see lower pricing, in fact the prices for ST at least have not jumped much in real terms over the last decade and a half.

More significant to me though is whether we get the same quality as before, and I agree the quality in both the go gos, and in the oilies is not what it used to be. However, I suspect many of us have become a bit jaded and need more now in terms of looks and service to be satisfied than when we first began in this hobby. But changes in the Thai diet (more junk food) as well as more economic opportunities have translated into fewer attractive girls in the P4 P scene. The increase in bad plastic surgery has also diminished the quality, depending on one's perspective. For me a bad boob job is a problem and these have increased; I don't care so much about noses as do some (or maybe one?) here.

My issue more than anything is a lowering of the service levels at both the go gos and the oilies (with Tulip and perhaps Bongkot exceptions). The switch among the go go girls to a preference for rushing to fit in a number of ST sessions in an evening over LT sessions is indirect, but nonetheless to me rather convincing, evidence of a different service standard than before or at least a different mentality that has led to a service decline. If a girl doesn't provide a satisfactory service level, I don't care how beautiful the girl is, I'm not going to feel as though I have gotten my money's worth. On the other hand, I do have certain minimum standards for how a girl looks, although the service she provides is as important to me.

And we almost all have service standards; we just may differ in their importance relative to looks. But if anyone out there would be content with a girl who doesn't kiss, will only give a covered blow job or maybe none at all, and after two minutes starts saying "finish, finish," I would concede that person probably does not have much in the way of a service standard.

I would argue if service and looks had not changed (for the worse) over the last decade or so, the pricing in effect now is not so far off. But both service levels and average looks have declined, and my assessment of by how much depends on my mood and how my latest sessions have gone. A good session can make me forget how things have changed generally for the worse; a bad session can be a reminder.

[QUOTE=LAGuy5;1953524]*snip*

My issue more than anything is a lowering of the service levels at both the go gos and the oilies (with Tulip and perhaps Bongkot exceptions). The switch among the go go girls to a preference for rushing to fit in a number of ST sessions in an evening over LT sessions is indirect, but nonetheless to me rather convincing, evidence of a different service standard than before or at least a different mentality that has led to a service decline. If the girls don't provide a satisfactory service level, I don't care how beautiful the girl is, I'm not going to feel as though I have gotten my money's worth. On the other hand, I do have certain minimum standards for how a girl looks, although the service she provides is as important to me.

And we almost all have service standards; we just may differ in their importance relative to looks. But if anyone out there would be content with a girl who doesn't kiss, will only give a covered blow job or maybe none at all, and after two minutes starts saying "finish, finish," I would concede that person probably does not have much in the way of a service standard.

I would argue if service and looks had not changed (for the worse) over the last decade or so, the pricing in effect now is not so far off. But both service levels and average looks have declined, and my assessment of by how much depends on my mood and how my latest sessions have gone. A good session can make me forget how things have changed generally for the worse; a bad session can be a reminder.[/QUOTE]That is where I am on it, too. In fact, I really don't believe any "overpaying" (within normal parameters) by the guy who was with a girl before me affects what happens for me or what I wind up paying. That girl is going to blow through whatever he paid her soon enough and be just as broke and in need of my money as if he hadn't given her anything at all. However, if he accepts crap service, goes even further and TIPS for crap service, essentially telling the girl what she did for him was so much more than he or any customer ought to expect, by golly he feels he would be way underpaying at the agreed upon rate "so here is more baht, honey", that does damage to me and subsequent customers.

The potential damage he does to me (or any subsequent customer) for paying top dollar, let's say 5,000 baht to get GREAT ST service from a beautiful P4 P girl is nothing compared to the damage he does to me and other subsequent customers when he pays an average girl 1,500 baht for crap ST service that does not include DFK, there is no BBBJ or only a covered one for foreplay and / or she does not even understand what finishing a BJ with CIM means and then he TIPS her a surprise 300 baht afterwards, essentially telling her with that tip, "'atta girl! Keep doing what you're doing! That was more than I expected, more than anyone ought to expect! I loved it! Don't ever change!"

[QUOTE=LAGuy5;1953524]A few comments in response to Goatscrot's and some of the other recent posts regarding price and looks of the Bangkok P4 P girls:

My first trip to Thailand was in the early 2000's, probably in 2002 or 2003. My recollection is ST at go gos cost around 1,500 baht, with LT being around 2,000 although I suppose it was possible to negotiate lower amounts. Bar fines were around 400 or 500 baht, although my recollection about this is not so clear. Given the official inflation rate in Thailand has averaged somewhere around 3 percent a year since then, perhaps a tad higher, it is probably unrealistic to expect the same prices in baht now, assuming the official inflation rates are not higher than the real inflation rates, which while possible would make little sense.

If one compounds the inflation rate over this period of time, ST would be around 2,200 baht and LT close to 3,000, assuming I am correct that around 13 years ago these cost 1,500 and 2,000 baht, respectively. So, 2,500 for ST is not so far off from what one might predict, although 4,000 or more for LT is. As to oilies, 1,500 for the girl's fee is around seventy percent of what the official inflation rate would have predicted.

So although the vast majority of us would like to see lower pricing, in fact the prices for ST at least have not jumped much in real terms over the last decade and a half.

More significant to me though is whether we get the same quality as before, and I agree the quality in both the go gos, and in the oilies is not what it used to be. However, I suspect many of us have become a bit jaded and need more now in terms of looks and service to be satisfied than when we first began in this hobby. But changes in the Thai diet (more junk food) as well as more economic opportunities have translated into fewer attractive girls in the P4 P scene. The increase in bad plastic surgery has also diminished the quality, depending on one's perspective. For me a bad boob job is a problem and these have increased; I don't care so much about noses as do some (or maybe one?) here.

My issue more than anything is a lowering of the service levels at both the go gos and the oilies (with Tulip and perhaps Bongkot exceptions). The switch among the go go girls to a preference for rushing to fit in a number of ST sessions in an evening over LT sessions is indirect, but nonetheless to me rather convincing, evidence of a different service standard than before or at least a different mentality that has led to a service decline. If a girl doesn't provide a satisfactory service level, I don't care how beautiful the girl is, I'm not going to feel as though I have gotten my money's worth. On the other hand, I do have certain minimum standards for how a girl looks, although the service she provides is as important to me.

And we almost all have service standards; we just may differ in their importance relative to looks. But if anyone out there would be content with a girl who doesn't kiss, will only give a covered blow job or maybe none at all, and after two minutes starts saying "finish, finish," I would concede that person probably does not have much in the way of a service standard.

I would argue if service and looks had not changed (for the worse) over the last decade or so, the pricing in effect now is not so far off. But both service levels and average looks have declined, and my assessment of by how much depends on my mood and how my latest sessions have gone. A good session can make me forget how things have changed generally for the worse; a bad session can be a reminder.[/QUOTE]I have some comments. Firstly I should say I agree with the vast majority of what you have written or do not dispute it. So some minor variances or just comments.

If at some time in the past, guys would pay 1500 for ST of lets say 90 minutes if you got a good unrushed girl (not certain), and guys believed 2000 was a fair price for LT. (I was probably mostly removed from mongering at the time with a steady Thai GF which finished in about 2004). Girls would think quite rightly that there is little point to do LT. 500 baht extra for one or two more fucks and having to put up with the guy's snoring for the whole night. Lets leave aside girls who have reasons they cannot do LT at all. Who in their right mind would think that was a good deal? A girl might think 3000 would have been okay For LT, but then only if she thought she could not get another ST customer for the rest of the night. What about hot girls that have been known to be able to get in 3 or 4 STs in one night? They would lose a hell of a lot of money to go stingy LT. I knew a Suzi girl who would do me at 6. 30 PM. Her next customer would be booked for 8. 30 PM. Some of her STs she did upstairs in just 1 hour. She was making pretty big money. She needed stingy LTs like a hole in the head.

I just try to understand the death of LT. I think in general they were severely under valued, even though I rarely have interest to take them.

Next point relates to service from go-go girls. When did a standard for service from go-go girls ever exist? Do I ever remember a go go girl with really advanced skills, maybe once in a blue moon. Okay I exaggerate. Some Suzi girls were very experienced and did pretty good BBBJ and ball licking. Big deal! It has always been more about finding girls that make a fun session, and highly GFE, since 25 years ago for me. I don't detect any great changes in that over the years. Its merely about picking the right compatible girl who likes to have fun. Still find some really horny girls, some power fucks, and some really lovey dovey girls, but special skills? Not really.

Only once did I ever meet a gogo girl so horny that she kept waking me up through the night for another round. It was like she had never had an orgasm before, probably deflowered not long. Other gogo girls kept me awake nearly all night because they were exuberant, not at all tired, and wanted to yack yack in Thai. Semi drunk and probably high as well.

For me special service standards are likely to only apply at PSE Oily shops, or perhaps BJ bars. Never really experienced anything that special anywhere else, unless just some particular freaky girl.

Looks have probably degraded overall for me a little, for several reasons including, nose jobs, tit jobs, bad high carb diet, drugs, more possibility for beauties to get other work, high proportion of mothers.

I think service oriented guys are very right to stay away from bars. Only girls with special looks deserve to be able to pull in bar customers, can't work out what the 90% of ugly bar girls are doing there at all, but they seem to survive by being raunchy, aggressive and somehow hooking the drunk or weak customers.

I do recall a pushy gogo girl built like a brick shit house with two coconuts bolted on appealing to some other ISGer though. Mystified me. Clearly someone else's sexy or nasty is just an annoying blob for me. I go for sensual rather than raunchy or slutty.

With regards to girl looks quality, I would say from left to right is better to worst:

Soapies with prominent model sections - Soapies - Tourist facing gogo's - Oillies - PSE oillies.

There is a bit of a drop off though from gogo's to oillies, and from good model section soapies to general soapy selection very much so. Consider that soapies have decent lighting, whereas gogo's don't and also serve more alcohol, and are more likely to have dark skin Isaan girls.

So as other board members said, gogo prices seem absurdly high. These girls are all mostly short village girls with darker skin (means they aren't able to get a good price in the soapies so they are relegated to here and should be cheaper, as per market forces), with no education, yet make serious money. I think I am going to mine the soapies for talent and build up a decent P4 P roster on my P4 P line account.

[QUOTE=Syzygies;1953548]I have some comments. Firstly I should say I agree with the vast majority of what you have written or do not dispute it. So some minor variances or just comments.

If at some time in the past, guys would pay 1500 for ST of lets say 90 minutes if you got a good unrushed girl (not certain), and guys believed 2000 was a fair price for LT. (I was probably mostly removed from mongering at the time with a steady Thai GF which finished in about 2004). Girls would think quite rightly that there is little point to do LT. 500 baht extra for one or two more fucks and having to put up with the guy's snoring for the whole night. Lets leave aside girls who have reasons they cannot do LT at all. Who in their right mind would think that was a good deal? A girl might think 3000 would have been okay For LT, but then only if she thought she could not get another ST customer for the rest of the night. What about hot girls that have been known to be able to get in 3 or 4 STs in one night? They would lose a hell of a lot of money to go stingy LT. I knew a Suzi girl who would do me at 6. 30 PM. Her next customer would be booked for 8. 30 PM. Some of her STs she did upstairs in just 1 hour. She was making pretty big money. She needed stingy LTs like a hole in the head.[/QUOTE]I too never understood the logic of LT being only 500 baht more than ST, but unless I am not recollecting accurately, that was the going rate back then. OTOH, I don't understand the logic of the girl's charge for a one-hour session at a PSE oily being the same as the charge for a two-hour session, currently 1,500 baht. The old pricing for ST vs. LT and the present pricing of one vs. two hours at an oily raise essentially the same issue although perhaps more strikingly in the case of ST vs. LT.

As to why girls would take a 2,000 baht LT when a ST session would get them 1,500 baht with the opportunity for more during the night, perhaps back then more guys wanted LT, which could have been motivated by the price structure. If many guys wanted LT, for the girl it might not be a choice between 2,000 baht for LT, and 1,500 baht for a series of STs; it might essentially be a choice between 2,000 baht for LT, or a good likelihood the girl would end up with nothing given the lower odds of finding someone wanting ST. Just a hypothesis, but it might explain why once that pricing structure came to be, girls still would happily do LT for 2,000 baht. Similarly, I haven't seen any resistance from the girls at the PSE oilies when I reserve a two-hour session, although perhaps they are trained well not to offer any.

[QUOTE=LAGuy5;1953568] Just a hypothesis, but it might explain why once that pricing structure came to be, girls still would happily do LT for 2,000 baht. Similarly, I haven't seen any resistance from the girls at the PSE oilies when I reserve a two-hour session, although perhaps they are trained well not to offer any.[/QUOTE]I was never doing LT in that era, due to having GF in Thailand. I could only get away with a little mongering so I was never ever paying as little as 2 K for LT in the modern era, and 25 years ago, I was paying 500 for LT. I don't recall ST with bargirls existing back then. However a ST massage parlour session, like at the Thermae Soapy, was probably at least 500 Baht or more. I can't really remember that.

Imagine being in a Soapy MP in lower Sukhumvit, 33 years ago, with the naked girl having no English whatsoever. Not even one word. I had no clue what I would be supposed to pay for sex, on top of the very professional Thai massage. Could have been 200 or 300 Baht. I had no clue. I had no condoms. No clue if the girl had any condoms. Probably not. Everything may have been bareback in those days. I was scared out of my brain about going bareback and catching herpes or something else, believe it or not (lacking experience). Western wife was also in Thailand, for that my very first visit. LOL Was amazing to see all the hot young girls wearing singlets (no bras) with nipples like beacons on the arms of old men in Patong Phuket. I was 27 years old.

There was no ISG, no internet. We were all born a few years too late I reckon. Mongering was once dirt cheap in Thailand.

I remember in Nana Plaza 15 years ago every girl could be had for 1000ST 2000 LT. I put that to the test in Playskool which had some really nice young girls back then. A girl wanted 1500 but I said 1000, she went down to 1200 but I stuck at 1000, she went to 1100 but I stuck with 1000. She said 'just 100 more!' but I stuck with 1000 and she agreed. The arrival of the Japanese into what used to be bars with a western clientele is what really changed things.

But there's no point comparing the present to the past when the same value can still be got in soapies and even oilies if you search hard enough. Taking into account inflation, 2000-2600 in an MP today is comparable to the 1500-2000 baht guys were paying for BF + ST in a gogo bar when I first arrived. The attraction of gogo bars is all in the mind, making guys believe their average little Isaan girl is comparable to a beautiful model, and my mind grew out of that long ago.

[QUOTE=LAGuy5;1953568]I too never understood the logic of LT being only 500 baht more than ST, but unless I am not recollecting accurately, that was the going rate back then.[/QUOTE]It's simple. The chance of them getting another ST if they start looking around 11 pm or midnight was not all that high. Some girls would go for several days without a customer, and take whatever extra income you can. At agogos, it wasn't easy to undercut the 1500 unofficial minimum price (that would get them an earful from the mamasan and other girls), but beyond that, you take every extra you can get. Freelancers, out on the street, often no worse in looks, were happy with 1000 baht, or even less. Moreover, 500 baht used to be a fair bit of money, back in the day, would have been over two days of factory work for those girls. Easily earned by basically sleeping overnight in a different place.

[QUOTE=Crocodilexp;1953628]It's simple. The chance of them getting another ST if they start looking around 11 pm or midnight was not all that high. Some girls would go for several days without a customer, and take whatever extra income you can. At agogos, it wasn't easy to undercut the 1500 unofficial minimum price (that would get them an earful from the mamasan and other girls), but beyond that, you take every extra you can get. Freelancers, out on the street, often no worse in looks, were happy with 1000 baht, or even less. Moreover, 500 baht used to be a fair bit of money, back in the day, would have been over two days of factory work for those girls. Easily earned by basically sleeping overnight in a different place.[/QUOTE]In 1996 I was paying 1000 BHT LT with "Superstars".

Most girls preferred LT then.

Usually took them by 2200 and they would stay until about 0600 next morning.

Mostly Nippon Mongers went ST from what I saw and would pay 800 BHT.

555.

Those were damn good times!

Not to say that now is any different.

It's what you make of it and get out of it.

[QUOTE=*****man;1953478]There are no truly beautiful girls in the go go bars. Some of them are fuckable, but no more so than cheaper girls in MPs. Just comparing go go girls with girls of similar age, looks and service in MPs, they're overpricing themselves by about 1000 baht.[/QUOTE]Agree with you 100%. There are no stunners in the farang scene. If they are not good enough for the local guys why should they be good enough for us? Frankly it is interesting that you see better looking gals on the street than you do in the P4 P venues. Should be the other way around at the prices that these gals are asking.

[QUOTE=Syzygies;1953481]I think that is a bit suspect. There are some very pretty girls, to nearly the standard of the movie stars/models to my eye, uncommon and hard to find yes, are at least to really cute standard, and really great bodies are not that uncommon at all. The standard of looks of the top 5% of girls in the right selected gogos surpasses the top Oily shop girls quite easily, IMHO.

Or is there an Oily with too many gorgeous girls? I could not find it. Even the whole of Thermae has very limited really pretty girls. Not one "must do" girl met, however in bars I have met the odd girl, I have labelled as a "must do" or bust. One such must do girl in Long Gun, a few years back, was really gorgeous and fab body, finally persuaded her to go with me after several tries, and she turned out to be a dud. Seemed to want to be my buddy in the bar but not fuck at all. She probably only liked young guys. Was useless for me.

In Oilies I only met 3 absolutely "must do" girls over about 5 years. In bars, definitely more "must do" girls than that. Everywhere could have a beautiful girl. It is just the relative rarity. Bar girls make much more money per session, hence that can be expected to attract somewhat more beautiful girls, ignoring the other 90 to 95% of more ordinary girls. Note that the best bargirls are not evenly distributed. Some bars will have a higher share and some bars will have no beautiful girls at all.

For many guys, a very young girl with a good body equals "beautiful". For many guys, a raunchy ugly girl equal "beautiful".[/QUOTE]Truthfully there aren't really any lookers in the oilies. Personally I just don't partake that much any more as I can't find a decent combination of looks and service at any price in LOS. I am sure it exists, but is probably the domain of Thai dudes only. One huge issue that differentiates the scene here from places like Jakarta and Sao Paolo is that in those places locals and expats are fishing in the same pond, which makes the scene far better on all accounts. And the main reason is that neither of those cities are tourist destinations.