American Women

there are many paths of happiness and happinese does not necessarily mean getting married (or maintaining an exclusive relationship with one single woman), having children and raising a family. for many, a single lifestyle with abundant disposable income, foreign vacation a few times a year, young playfriends, new german sports cars and fine fashion is happinese. personally i do not understand why my married friends live such a frugal lifestyle and never had the wonderment of my lifestyle since all their income goes to support the family .... but they do seem to be happy and proud.... from time to time, they did compliment my lifestyle with envy..... but then, they made the choice that having a family is the route to happiness.

Alex, why don't u stop this useless discussion? Why do u care that much about others happiness?
Why do you want to set free those who aren't looking for freedom?
Just let everyone do the way they feel good, Just protect urself from these women. Anyhow with about 60% of the population with weight problems why bother? Just leave em alone and go international that's where the truth is. No more women trying to command you to extort you!
Please leave others alone don't awake them cause they are comfortable. Make your own case!
PS As time goes by more & more of these women will stay alone.

Some interesing points of view. On a sidenote however, I just have to ask, is it just me or does it feel like the frequency of sex dramatically decreases after a few years in a longer term relationship? It's getting harder to get her in the mood these days as often as before .... it's nothing like in the beginning.... damn...
I mean, the emotional aspect of a relationship and the connection has its pros like some of you have mentioned, but is it gonna get any better in the sex department? Any others feeling this way or experience this?

BTW I'm in good physical shape, so no need to tell me I should lose some flab or look in the mirror at sagging male breasts =)

Oh yeah, and this site as a whole is really interesting and detailed. Didn't realize that prostitution was this prevalent and the prices in some places are alot cheaper than I had thought before. You learn new things every day I guess...

still reading through some of the other sections on WSG, there's just so much.

RN >Please explain to me exactly how I benefited in ANY way from marriage or childbirth...

- No, you didn't.

RN > Alex...I can't believe you honestly think that the only reason women (on their own of course, without the help of men) get pregnant solely for financial reasons.

No, I don't.
I also don't think :

- all women are bad
- all men are good
- all marriagies are unhappy
- there is nothing in marriages except financial calculations

and so on.

What I say is :

1. In current situation life of men statistically is even worse, then life of women.( including all difficult financial problems of single mothers ( sorry, RN ! ) )

2. Marriage law make this situation even worse, so canselation of it will improve life. ( note, not marriage - as an aliance of two loving people - just MARRIAGE LAW with its prostitutional-financial implications )

That's all I say. See my initial post for details.

Bootylover > Alex, why don't u stop this useless discussion? Why do u care that much about others happiness?
...
PS As time goes by more & more of these women will stay alone.

I want to intensify this process. Not just for the women stay alone, but to return sexuality to sex, away from business.

Do you enjoy travel abroad for sex ? Why not to have normal sex here, in US, Canada ?

"normal" sex. define normal?

>"normal" sex. define normal?

One that you are not charged 100$ or marriage sertificate for it.

well, my friend. not charge $100- is possible since there are lots of meat bar in any cities. but then the problem is, most women in these meat bar are fat and ugly. so, at the end of the day, i would rather pay to play. life is too short to dig fat and ugly chicks.

second, marriage certificate. life is too short to dig the same woman every night and day, got to diversify.

conclusion, "normal sex" per your definition is boring.

> 1. In current situation life of men statistically is even worse, then life of women.( including all difficult financial problems of single mothers ( sorry, RN ! ) )

Good clarification of your position, Alex, but I just don't know where you come up with the above. What statistics are you talking about? Life is worse in what way -- not getting free pussy? That's worse than what a financially struggling single mother has to go through?

joe_zop > ...Alex, but I just don't know where you come up with the above. What statistics are you talking about? Life is worse in what way -- not getting free pussy? That's worse than what a financially struggling single mother has to go through?

Yes. 1.I've never heard about single mother, sufffering from depression because she is tight with money, but I knew personaly at leat 2 men, suffering from depression because of lack of female love and sex.

2. Suicide rate is 2-3 higer for men, then for women, especially in developed countries. Why do you think ?
I've never heard of single mother, commiting suiside, because she has not enough money.

>Yes. 1.I've never heard about single mother, sufffering from depression because she is tight with money, but I knew personaly at leat 2 men, suffering from depression because of lack of female love and sex.

In point of fact, the statistics show that single females are more likely to suffer from depression than single males, twice as much by the age of 18, 3 to 1 from ages 30 to 50, then leveling out to equal levels after that. ([url]http://www.biomedcentral.com/1471-244X/2/3[/url])

And I apologize if I'm badly wrong, but the impression I've gotten from reading all of your posts is frankly that you know nothing much at all about single mothers, so it's kind of hard to put much stock in your anecdotal information. I know and have dealt with a number of single mothers, and they sure as hell suffer from depression. Money's part of it, though in my interactions it's more about being alone and lacking emotional support.

>2. Suicide rate is 2-3 higer for men, then for women, especially in developed countries. Why do you think ?
I've never heard of single mother, commiting suiside, because she has not enough money.

"Why do you think?" Where do you come up with this stuff? You mean I should summon up a picture of horny males too depressed because they only get sexual relief if they whack off so they whack themselves? I think it's a lot of things -- should I think that the fact that the suicide rate for males under 18 (going down to age 5) is also at about the same rate indicates that there's a bunch of adolescents and pubescents offing themselves because they don't get enough sex? Or the same for those over 75, whose rates are significantly higher? (Now, if you want to tell me the latter are killing themselves because they can't get it up anymore I'll have an easier time believing you.)

The male suicide rate is higher all around the world. The basic difference in the suicide rate can be explained in a large way by the fact that men tend to use guns, and thus are more often successful, even though women attempt suicide twice as often. The stats also say this -- suicide is more common among women who are single, recently separated, divorced, or widowed, and women who attempt suicide tend to do so because of interpersonal losses or crises in significant social or family relationships. Overall, risk factors that have been identified for suicide are age, unemployment, chronic illness, social isolation (higher rates among farmers, for example) and being in certain occupations (police, for example.) The most important one is presence of mental illness.

I don't know your background, but I worked two years as a volunteer in a crisis intervention center, and spent a lot of time talking with depressed and suicidal people on the phone. Men who called and threatened suicide tended to do so because they were unemployed, or because they felt they'd screwed up their lives, or because they generally felt worthless, and very infrequently because they didn't have a girlfriend or support structure. Women almost always focused on relationship problems.

C'mon now, every problem out there doesn't automatically relate to your thesis -- all male problems don't simply come down to bad marriage laws or women wanting something for sex. And you weaken your argument by simply throwing things out in a conspiracy-theory kind of way, where it's like everything's the fault of the CIA or a covered-up alien invasion only in this case it's marriage law or women not wanting to lie down in the road in front of you with open legs for nothing.

Skinless -- interestingly, most of the decent info and studies I've found on male suicide are from outside the US. The one I cited below was the best of the ones that actually looked closely at differences by age, though there are some others that look at general demographic differences. A couple of good sites with links on this subject are at http://www.psycom.net/depression.central.suicide.html and http://www.menstuff.org/issues/byissue/suicide.html#statistics.

I think you're right that at least part of the cause of the rise in male suicide rates is probably related to rising power and success of women, since that translates into further stress in the workplace and men's sense of power and self-worth. And, yes, that clearly gets reflected in this thread. But, as I said below in my reply to Alex, I don't see where that translates into marriage laws (married men, in fact, have very low suicide rates, lower still than married women) or women wanting things in order to have sex. If we want to say that the bottom line is that a high and rising suicide rate for men is an indication that men are not coping well with changes in society which give women more power, you'll get no disagreement from me -- but, again, that doesn't translate into saying those changes are bad or need to be stopped, etc. To me it says that there are very poor support structures for men, that society isn't dealing well with the effects of its changes on men, and that men lack education on how to deal with such emotional turmoil. And I say this as someone who is by nature a depressive :-) as it runs strongly in my family.

Personally, I think the "role/gender confusion" that has come with the emancipation of women causes a lot of problems for both the sexes (with regard to depression). Traditionally, roles were very clearly defined and everyone knew what was expected of someone of their gender. Those clear lines are very blurry now, and it's been tough for all of us. Men are unsure where they stand now that they are having to view women as "equals". They have lost their power and dominance, and with that, their self-esteem and self-assurance has taken a bit of a beating. They are getting mixed messages about who they are supposed to be...strong and in charge on the one hand and sensitive and caring on the other. Women are portrayed as sex objects in the media, but you can't speak to one in the real world for fear of a sexual harassment accusation. Men are encouraged to "feel" more, but are still told that real men don't cry.

Women are just as confused. We are told that "we can do anything" and given opportunities in the workplace that we never had before, while at the same time being criticised for not getting married and bearing children. Those of us that DO bear children are seen as worthless if we don't have a career. If we are successful and single, we are ball-breaking b*tches. If we are housewives content with raising children and treating our men like gods, we are pathetic. I certainly don't think that gender equality is a bad thing...I just think it's gonna take some getting used to. We need to adjust to our new roles.

And yes, I have avoided the "single mothers don't get depressed by lack of money" statement. Certain people here have obviously never been afraid (and I mean to the point of throwing up) of going to the mailbox or answering the phone, in case there are bills or debt collectors. They have obviously never been evicted. They have obviously never gone without food for days on end, or missed out on Easter with their parents because they couldn't afford to put fuel in the car. If they HAD been through these things, they would know just how much depression it causes. This is my life, right now as we speak. Luckily for us depressed single Mums...we can't see our tear-stained faces in the mirror once the electricity has been disconnected. No, I'm not looking for pity...I'm telling those certain people what it's like, seeing as they obviously have NO idea what they're talking about.

Your lack of compassion or respect for single mothers, and women in general for that matter, is blatantly obvious Alex. Just out of interest.....what sort of family do you come from? Divorced? Happily married couple? Or were you conceived by a selfish single mother purely out of financial greed???

>single mothers, and they sure as hell suffer from depression. Money's part of it, though in my interactions it's more about being alone and lacking emotional support.

So, Joe, money is NOT main cause !

OK, I am not a professional in this area, and I'm not ready to discuss depression/suicide statistics ( also I feel that's a lot of truth in my understanding ). I was not right to go into this area now. May be I'll find time, make some research in Internet and return to this. But, anyway, my main thesis is not this. It is :

1. Men and women must be equal.
2. Sex for sex for both man and woman, not sex for money for women.

Isn't that right ?

3. If you don't agree with 1, 2 - why then 'real' prostitution is considered to bo outlaw ? Can you explain ?

We should have both marriage and prostitution either legal or illegal.
------------

More specification. There is double standard for men and women in our siciety. A woman may not earn much - and still be respectful and attractive in personal/sexual areas. Men may not. If they are unsucsessful - they are in deep shit. This is natural - it comes from times when men were hunting and bringing food to thier women, family.
BUT ! - now we in all aspects don't live by the law of nature ! In business women have equal opportunities with men ( don't tell me about 20% - it's not so important ). So men have lost their role of 'giver' of food. Then let's women loose their privilege to 'take' it ! Otherwise women get unfair advantage.

That's what is going on now in North America. This is very bad for men, turning them into shit. As for women - the situation corrupts them, because they know, they can use men now as their servants, controlling them through sex. Let's at least stop to support this situation legally !

All financial problems of men, women children should be solved in any other way, but not through sex ! Otherwise it turns love into business, killing a lot of love. That's where from comes depressions, suicides for both men and women - my feeling, I can't right now confirm it with statistics, professional researchs, -but is it not true ? People do not commit suicide because of state of their bank account, but because of lovelessness, solitude... - will you argue that it is not true ?

Regards.

RN -- thanks for the testimony. I think, to paraphrase a discussion that took place a while back in the Thai women section, that there is a great deal of the heroic in those who simply do what's needed, despite the personal cost, whether they're men or women. And hero/heroine is usually a rather lonely role. One of the interesting statistics found is that one of the "protections" against female suicide appears to be having a child under two years old. So that mothering instinct is strong even in the face of despair (though it does lessen as a deterrent as the kids get older.)

The bottom line is it's tough going it alone -- male or female. But, far mroe for women more than men, going it alone can be healthier than being with someone with whom you don't fit.


Alex:

>But, anyway, my main thesis is not this. It is :

1. Men and women must be equal.
2. Sex for sex for both man and woman, not sex for money for women.

Isn't that right ?

No problem with #1. As far as #2, I say sex for sex [i]and[/i] sex for money for whomever decides they want it that way. It's your body, you should be able to give it away or sell it as you please, whether you're male or female. No one is forcing anyone to pay anything -- if it's a deal you don't like, walk away. If there's not a market for you (better be a truly buff male or have a six-inch long tongue) then you'd better look for another source of income. The gigolo may not be as common as the female prostitute, but they definitely exist, and you can look at tons of online sites to confirm it.


>3. If you don't agree with 1, 2 - why then 'real' prostitution is considered to bo outlaw ? Can you explain ?

>We should have both marriage and prostitution either legal or illegal.

No disagreement from me here -- I see no reason why prostitution should be illegal, and I'm pretty sure the majority of folks on this forum agree. If you want to discuss this issue, and the historical basis for outlawing of prostitution, I suggest you take a look at this forum's "Morality of Prostitution" thread. And if you're truly and seriously going to advocate for making marriage illegal, then a) you're going to have to put forward a vastly better case and b) we've descended so far into the realm of "ain't never gonna happen" that it's time to talk about something else.


>There is double standard for men and women in our siciety. A woman may not earn much - and still be respectful and attractive in personal/sexual areas. Men may not. If they are unsucsessful - they are in deep shit. This is natural - it comes from times when men were hunting and bringing food to thier women, family.
BUT ! - now we in all aspects don't live by the law of nature ! In business women have equal opportunities with men ( don't tell me about 20% - it's not so important ).

Sorry, but I don't agree here on some aspects. Yes, women can be attractive if they don't earn much, as the expectiations aren't the same. The opposite can also be true -- women can be penalized for being successful by seeming less attractive.

Men who are not successful are not as attractive, and women are attracted by wealth and power. Ok, I'll concede that can be the case in some regard -- let's have a "get all losers laid" compaign if you like. And I'm being a bit facetious; I agree that things shouldn't be completely based on that, but come on! If you're going to complain about that, then why not bemoan the fact that women pay a price if they're not beautiful, if they don't measure up to society's standards of attractiveness? If women prefer to hook up with the rich and powerful, men do the same with models or actresses or women who meet societal standards of youth and beauty. Isn't that unfair? Shouldn't that be outlawed?

And your dismissal of the 20% (actually more like 25%) gap in gender earnings is beyond ironic when you're moaning that men who don't make enough dollars don't get the girl. How can you just ignore this and then complain women have unfair advantage?


> All financial problems of men, women children should be solved in any other way, but not through sex ! Otherwise it turns love into business, killing a lot of love. That's where from comes depressions, suicides for both men and women - my feeling, I can't right now confirm it with statistics, professional researchs, -but is it not true ? People do not commit suicide because of state of their bank account, but because of lovelessness, solitude... - will you argue that it is not true ?

Actually, people do commit suicide because of financial problems, but it's most often bundled with other issues. Here's the core of where we disagree -- I don't see that earning inequities in marriage kill love or sex, and that somehow men are paying a disproportionate penalty here. Married men get more sex, live longer, tend to have lower blood pressure, give more to charity than single men. (And this is true in both good and bad marriages -- unlike women, whose health tends to suffer in a bad marriage.) Men also benefit professionally -- married men tend to have better jobs, make more money, and are overall more successful. (http://www.msnbc.com/news/599521.asp) Now, it may well be that, as discussed, men who are either more successful or better prospects for success are the ones who marry, but given that this is a study that drew on yearly interviews of the same men over 20 years, and they clearly experienced success during that period, it's not illogical to conclude that being married has something to do with it.

All of this would indicate to me that, frankly, marriage is a good investment for men rather than a sapping of their earnings, as your thesis purports. If things fall apart they do so after a number of years of health and financial positives. Seems to me both parties benefit financially and personally -- take it outside of your marriage law argument, and most men would have very little problem with the idea that they'd invest some money to be healthier and more successful. Getting laid on a regular basis is the icing on the cake.

> Regards.

And regards back at you, Alex. Truly -- I appreciate your willingness to engage in discussion in a civilized manner with folks who disagree with you. (And that's aimed at the personal as well as the general "you.")