Pattaya Reports

[QUOTE=BionicMan;2969728]From time to time, MIB takes rides in town to check what happens in bar and streets and the proud report is "we didn't find any sign of prostitution".

Why do they announce that if it is not illegal? No LE will make pride of checks about non illegal activities. Driving through red traffic lights is illegal, so police will give stats about the fins on that offence. Not that they checked people driving through green lights.

Why from time to time they arrest ladies and Lb's charging them for. Prostitution?[/QUOTE]There are many things linked to prostitution in Thailand that are illegal, including in certain cases, the act itself. As shown in ETs posts on this, pimping in illegal. (Section 9 below) Soliciting prostitution is illegal, IF it is done in "an an open and shameful manner or causes nuisance to the public. " (Section 5).

Advertising it is illegal. Certain acts in prostitution establishments are illegal. And on and on.

Those are things the police are looking for. The arrests are, presumably, for violations of these sections.

This is not what the discussion is about. Many people like to parrot other people, who themselves are wrong. They're not interested in whether or not what they say is actually true. Everyone who makes the blanket statement that prostitution is illegal in Thailand is wrong.

If prostitution itself was illegal, the law would just say that, as the law in my home state does.

The following is the Thai law regarding murder:

TITLE X.

OFFENCE AGAINST LIFE AND BODY.

Details.

Chapter 1: Offence Causing Death.

Section 288. Murder.

Whoever, murdering the other person, shall be imprisoned by death or imprisoned as from fifteen years to twenty years.

That's it. Is the act of murder illegal in the Kingdom? Yes it is. See Title X, Chapter 1, Section 288. Now somewhere in the penal code murder will be defined, but notice there are no qualifiers, nothing about- only if done in a certain manner in a certain place, committed upon a person of a certain age, etc.

Is the act of prostitution illegal in the Kingdom? Show me the statute that declares it is.

[QUOTE=PhilipMarlow;2969760]Everyone who makes the blanket statement that prostitution is illegal in Thailand is wrong.

If prostitution itself was illegal, the law would just say that, as the law in my home state does.[/QUOTE]Except that this is Thailand. How is one supposed to procure a legal prostitute if every avenue to obtain one seems to be illegal?

[QUOTE=PhilipMarlow;2969760]There are many things linked to prostitution in Thailand that are illegal, including in certain cases, the act itself. As shown in ETs posts on this, pimping in illegal. (Section 9 below) Soliciting prostitution is illegal, IF it is done in "an an open and shameful manner or causes nuisance to the public. " (Section 5).

Advertising it is illegal. Certain acts in prostitution establishments are illegal. And on and on.

Those are things the police are looking for. The arrests are, presumably, for violations of these sections.

This is not what the discussion is about. Many people like to parrot other people, who themselves are wrong. They're not interested in whether or not what they say is actually true. Everyone who makes the blanket statement that prostitution is illegal in Thailand is wrong.

If prostitution itself was illegal, the law would just say that, as the law in my home state does.

The following is the Thai law regarding murder:

TITLE X.

OFFENCE AGAINST LIFE AND BODY.

Details.

Chapter 1: Offence Causing Death.

Section 288. Murder.

Whoever, murdering the other person, shall be imprisoned by death or imprisoned as from fifteen years to twenty years.

That's it. Is the act of murder illegal in the Kingdom? Yes it is. See Title X, Chapter 1, Section 288. Now somewhere in the penal code murder will be defined, but notice there are no qualifiers, nothing about- only if done in a certain manner in a certain place, committed upon a person of a certain age, etc.

Is the act of prostitution illegal in the Kingdom? Show me the statute that declares it is.[/QUOTE]Sometimes I will hear or read something on the order of, "I have a friend who is a cop and he says blah blah blah" about prostitution or whatever.

Well, let me tell you that I have an in-law who is a Thai cop, I might have personally interacted with more different Thai police and Men In Btown than most westerners over the years and the fact is they are not always the sharpest knife in the drawer even about the law.

One example; I ride an electric bicycle around town that looks a bit like a real motor scooter but on the slightest closer inspection is clearly a bicycle and not a motorcycle. It has bicycle pedals. It would be closer to a circus clown small size motorcycle than a real one. Any policeman or MIB should be able to tell the difference between what I am driving and a full size motorcycle within 5 seconds of moderate inspection.

Yet I have been pulled over or stopped on the sidewalk while walking that bike at least 10 times by either 1 or more policeman or 1 or more MIB requesting to see my motorcycle drivers license, my registration, asking where is my helmet, etc, none of which is required to ride a bicycle, electric or not, in Thailand.

You might suspect they are just hassling me as a westerner, trying to shake me down for a payoff or "out of court" settlement. But all I can say is it never really goes there and it has happened even when I have had a Thai girlfriend passenger with me, a situation I have to think is not the best for them to assume I will just hand them 2,000 baht to let me go on my way.

The interaction has never escalated to that point and I have never paid anyone so much as a baht to get "early release". But it often did take several minutes for me to explain to these police agents and traffic rule enforcers the difference between a bicycle and a motorcycle, why this vehicle has bicycle pedals, how many Watts of power Thai law uses to determine whether the two-wheel vehicle must be regarded as a motorcycle and therefore the driver must obey all license, registration and helmet requirements for a motorcycle (500 Watts, BTW), etc.

I would think with as many electric bicycles and electric full size motorcycles as these folks are seeing and encountering in their job over the past few years that they would know these things by now.

But no.

Most of the time they have to look it up on their government-issued smartphone or tablet to discover I am telling them the truth and something they never knew before. They just saw a two-wheeled motor-powered vehicle and thought, "motorcycle. " Beyond that they hadn't given it much thought.

And even after they looked it up they would call over a supervisor to verify what they just read in their online handbook, perhaps for the first time really paying attention to the exact words, was true.

So just because a cop says something like "prostitution is illegal in Thailand" because he remembers reading the part in the Code about how many years someone might spend in prison for doing it with a minor or he recalls that Royal Edict from a few years ago that mentioned something about "procuring" and "taking" a girl from her province to work as a prostitute somewhere in or outside of Thailand or because his buddies are always looking for open and shameful "evidence" of it in public places, that does not mean he has ever fully understood why neither he nor any of his buddies has ever been assigned to knock on hotel and apartment doors to interrogate 30 year old suspected hookers and their 60 year old suspected customers about whether or not any money was exchanged for the fucking they just did or are about to do.

Sure, maybe a passage from the Thai Penal Code or another officially enforceable addendum to it will eventually show up with the exact words necessary to make it illegal at all times anywhere in the Kingfom and with anyone no matter how discretely it has been agreed to and engaged in. Anything is possible in Thailand. But those exact words are going to shake the fabric of life in Thailand for all but the monks and probably for a few of them as well. And I have not yet seen them.

[QUOTE=EihTooms;2969624]I just wanted to mention here that I have also been making these same points and raising the same questions but since my post submissions are held for quite some time for moderation they have not been posted yet even though I submitted them before yours and others' showed up here.

Just my apology in advance for what might seem like an annoying repetition of what you and perhaps others are submitting and getting posted way sooner than my submissions are getting posted. If they get posted at all, that is.

And I suspect now that these holes in the argument are being laid bare by so many and so effectively, "somebody" will request all of it be moved to another forum, where very few here will ever see them. As happened before.[/QUOTE]Weird, I just saw your posts. You make some very good points. But as far as the argument are being laid bare by so many and so effectively, I don't think that will sway too many others. Some are, without any evidence, convinced it's illegal, and nothing will change their minds. No big deal, it's really only an academic argument anyway.

[QUOTE=MrEnternational;2969778]Except that this is Thailand. How is one supposed to procure a legal prostitute if every avenue to obtain one seems to be illegal?[/QUOTE]Based on what we have read here so far just avoid going into a shop or club that presents absolutely zero deniable pretense that it exists for any purpose other than to provide Sex In Exchange For Money. You know, big sign outside saying something like "Fucks and Blowjobs For Sale Here. Please Step Inside", there are no drinks or snacks to buy, not so much as a neck massage on the menu, no flat-screen tvs with sports events playing, no place to sit and relax, only cots in curtained cubicles. That kind of place.

Now, you might be skirting the written law more than most with your method of barely entering a Soi 6 or Walking Street Bar to buy a drink or anything else, massage shop, Beach Road and so on and simply stand outside on the actual soi to choose a girl to have sex for money. Depending on how loud your voices are when you ask and if or when she counters with her first quote. Just keep your voice down when you ask and "shush" her if she loudly shouts back a number from now on. Hehe.

[QUOTE=MrEnternational;2969778]Except that this is Thailand. How is one supposed to procure a legal prostitute if every avenue to obtain one seems to be illegal?[/QUOTE]Easy. In a non-prostitution place, ask a lady if she's a WG. Don't do it both openly and shamelessly, (per basic legal construction, you can do it either openly or shamelessly, but not both) and don't create a nuisance to the public (Section 5 of the act) and you're good to go. If she is, start the negotiations.

There are other ways, actually quite a few other ways I'll bet, but that's one.

Actually, the law has even more outs for punters. The definition of prostitution includes the clause that the act has to be done in a "promiscuous manner. " It doesn't define promiscuous, but it's a requirement, and if it's not done that way, it's not legally prostitution.

As you said, and as Bernard Trink used to write, TIT.

[QUOTE=MrEnternational;2969678]He didn't really scam you. The app said 1046. Tolls are 105, for a total of 1151 You paid 1200. A lot of people contact those services like Mikes Taxi and pay 1500 up to 2000. My girlfriend charges 1800 for that ride because her truck uses diesel instead of the cheaper natural gas other vehicles use.[/QUOTE]I didn't say the fee was unreasonable (although Mike's quotes 1000 baht) but he still scammed me by taking me off of the App, refusing my Credit Card which was how I wished to pay for it, and originally trying to get 1400 out of me. I had to put up a stink. If that isn't a rip off scam I don 't know what is. I would have paid the tolls plus the 1046 baht, been happy, and probably tipped him, but others should be aware of this stunt. I choose rideshare so that I don't just get a random driver. Never had this happen on Grab, but maybe it would in BKK, I don't know.

The transportation company that I use charges 1600 THB for the Pattaya to BKK trip. The are consistent. The owner sends me the information on the driver and the vehicle before they arrive. My personal safety is worth WAY more than a 200 - 500 THB difference. Goes back to what I have to say about the financial situation of many of the [B]International Tricks[/B] posting up in here. Especially the ones that have something to say about how I spend my money.

[QUOTE=Explorer8939;2969526]As for 35,000 baht night at the bar, that's what I remember you posting.[/QUOTE]Not even close to what I have ever spent in a bar.

So I was out last night with friends and there friends and it was interesting first stop was Queens they like it but barked when I told them the bar fine is 3000 because it's a Saturday. So then we went to Soi pothole because one of the guys has a "friend" that works there. We went to a bar or a gentleman's club with XOXO on it I tried googling it but it didn't come up. It's new and I'd been there once before and quickly left. What happened in this bar is why everything is ymmv in terms on the quality of chicks that available in any given place. What I mean is 3 of the four guys I was with were just fawning over a chick that I thought was in her fifties turn out she was 44 but I thought she was lying. She had an old face and no ass just horrible looking.

The final stop was Kink I reluctantly came along as I don't like Kink or windmill I think there lame and the chicks are ugly. The one good thing going for the place is the barfine is only 1000 baht and my buddies got quotes of 2 and 3 k st respectively.

[QUOTE=PhilipMarlow;2969760]There are many things linked to prostitution in Thailand that are illegal, including in certain cases, the act itself. As shown in ETs posts on this, pimping in illegal. (Section 9 below) Soliciting prostitution is illegal, IF it is done in "an an open and shameful manner or causes nuisance to the public. " (Section 5).

Advertising it is illegal. Certain acts in prostitution establishments are illegal. And on and on.

Those are things the police are looking for. The arrests are, presumably, for violations of these sections.

This is not what the discussion is about. Many people like to parrot other people, who themselves are wrong. They're not interested in whether or not what they say is actually true. Everyone who makes the blanket statement that prostitution is illegal in Thailand is wrong.

If prostitution itself was illegal, the law would just say that, as the law in my home state does.

The following is the Thai law regarding murder:

TITLE X.

OFFENCE AGAINST LIFE AND BODY.

Details.

Chapter 1: Offence Causing Death.

Section 288. Murder.

Whoever, murdering the other person, shall be imprisoned by death or imprisoned as from fifteen years to twenty years.

That's it. Is the act of murder illegal in the Kingdom? Yes it is. See Title X, Chapter 1, Section 288. Now somewhere in the penal code murder will be defined, but notice there are no qualifiers, nothing about- only if done in a certain manner in a certain place, committed upon a person of a certain age, etc.

Is the act of prostitution illegal in the Kingdom? Show me the statute that declares it is.[/QUOTE]You mean I won't get 6 months added to my sentence and 5,000 baht added to my fine if I commit murder openly AND shamelessly on Soi 6 rather than discretely in the privacy of my hotel room or condo? Ha. Good to know.

On the long delayed posting of my message submissions on this site that you and I alluded to in previous posts, it turns out that when my submitted messages do eventually get posted there is an effort to place them in the thread chronologically according to the day, time or point in the thread where they were quoting someone. That is why you did not see a post of mine 1-2 pages back yesterday but it suddenly appeared 2-3 pages back today and you might not have known they had been posted at all.

And on the idea that these "legal vs illegal" discussions are only or mostly academic anyway, I tend to feel it is important to know either way. A punter who thinks what he is doing is illegal and putting him at risk of spending a year or more in a Thai prison is apt to pay and tip a lot more than necessary or perhaps ask for and expect less quality service and Value For Money just to keep in everyone's good graces and, in a worst case scenario, from allowing himself to be the target of a shake down and bribery. Over nothing.

Operating on the false assumption that the basic act without all the qualifiers in this hobby is illegal in Thailand when it is not can't be good for the punter or the market. And if it can be shown and proven that it is illegal then that is very important info to have as well.

That is regardless whether or not anyone cares or anyone's mind is changed based solely on the sentiment of the few who post vs the many who only lurk, read and learn.

Quick update from my trip.

Russian clip joints:

Decided to peak inside a few of them to see if anything has changed and they're just as worthless as they've always been. 500 baht for a beer, 1000 baht for a lady drink, 10,000 baht for a shower (no sex). Ugly strippers. Many of the "Russian" ladies begging for lady drinks are not even scantily clad or half naked, they're fully clothed so there is zero point to visit these scam joints.

Discos:

Panda: Loud as hell, not for the faint of heart, largely chinese only club but plenty of fair skinned freelance stunners if you can stomach the intense environment.

Republic: same as Panda, but a few more westerners. I saw several decent freelancers but was with a WG at the time. Cool enough to revisit.

Insomnia / Ibar: I could not find a damn thing in here. Nothing notable at all but I do like eating at The Diner.

808: Only worth it if you like fat chicks. I've been going to 808 daily on the off chance I see something good, but more times than not its not the case.

Beach road: I generally despise beach roach but I had some free time and found a decent freelancer. She wanted 1500ST, which I was fine with because she had some nice natural knockers. She said "condom everything" but was fine with a bareback blowjob.

Gogos:

I only went to shark yesterday, barfined a decent stunner for ST and ended up spending the rest of the night with her as a GFE. She told me she has to sell 6 drinks or pay the difference (she said its different for salary workers), said pre-covid the money was flowing, now post covid people don't spend money. She said Chinese people are mainly the ones still spending money in the WS go-gos, followed by Americans / Europeans in lower numbers. She said Indians do not spend money in WS gogos as well as local Thai men.

Soapy massages:

Decided not to go on this trip.

Dating apps / bumble / tinder:

Could not find anything I liked.

Indian clubs:

I counted atleast 6 of them on WS. Not worth it for mongering. Too many heavy makeup, middle aged, pushup bra, single mother, overcharging Thai WGs and Azerbaijan women. But good to visit if you want to see something new.

Overall its been a solid trip. I had some good bar girls as well as freelancers.

[QUOTE=PhilipMarlow;2969302]Can you cite anything that supports that statement?[/QUOTE]Yes, thai law:

"The Prevention and Suppression of Prostitution Act, established in 1996, explicitly forbids prostitution in public places and brothels. It introduces fines for providing sexual services, deeming prostitution illegal. Notably, penalties for sex workers are reduced, while those overseeing brothels face punishment. The Penal Code, while not explicitly labeling prostitution as illegal, does penalize those profiting from a prostitute's earnings. ".

[URL]https://www.siam-legal.com/thailand-law/is-prostitution-legal-in-thailand/[/URL]

The difference is that its not enforced at all, or else every go-go bar, BJ bar, beer bar, LK metro, soi 6, soapy massage, etc would be shutdown tomorrow. The only thing left would be discos.

[QUOTE=Rocko20;2969910]Yes, thai law:

"The Prevention and Suppression of Prostitution Act, established in 1996, explicitly forbids prostitution in public places and brothels. It introduces fines for providing sexual services, deeming prostitution illegal. Notably, penalties for sex workers are reduced, while those overseeing brothels face punishment. The Penal Code, while not explicitly labeling prostitution as illegal, does penalize those profiting from a prostitute's earnings. ".

[URL]https://www.siam-legal.com/thailand-law/is-prostitution-legal-in-thailand/[/URL]

The difference is that its not enforced at all, or else every go-go bar, BJ bar, beer bar, LK metro, soi 6, soapy massage, etc would be shutdown tomorrow. The only thing left would be discos.[/QUOTE]That law firm link references The Prevention and Supression of Prostitution Act and "summarizes" it as in your quote. But, aside from the question of whether or not that Act is enforceable, we have seen the actual wording of the Act here and it does not specifically state what that law firm grandly announces that it states.

I can see that the 1996 Act was hoping to "Prevent" and "Supress" prostitution by largely re-stating an array of qualifiers that have been present in the Thai Penal Code for years and years. However, despite that law firm's claim, it does nothing to affirm or confirm that the act of exchanging sex for money among consenting adults without all those qualifiers present is "illegal" or "a crime".

I give them a dubious credit for trying though.

[QUOTE=MrEnternational;2969778]Except that this is Thailand. How is one supposed to procure a legal prostitute if every avenue to obtain one seems to be illegal?[/QUOTE]There should be a topic called "Is Prostitution Legal in Thailand?" since this discussion happens every few months and serves to confuse everyone.

Bottom line: there is virtually zero chance of a monger being arrested for prostitution in Thailand. Or a lady.

[QUOTE=Rocko20;2969910]Yes, thai law:
[/QUOTE]So no.

Nothing you cited specifically says that or implies it at all. There's pages worth of debunking exactly what you just said that supposedly ties prositution itself to being illegal. Just because pimping, trafficking and public disorder through indecency is illegal, does not mean prositution is illegal.