General Info

The logic follows from the fact that we've been doing business here for a very long time, since the time, in fact, when Manila was significantly more dangerous than it is now and we would rather operate on the basis of prudence than statistics. This is a third world country in which disagreements are often settled violently and with disastrous results for the innocents caught in the crossfire. Even if, in Manila, the violence is sporadic, that fact is that many terrorist attacks here target mass transit systems. So it makes sense, at least to me, to do you can to reduce the risk, however small.

GE

[QUOTE=GoodEnough; 1116497]The logic follows from the fact that we've been doing business here for a very long time, since the time, in fact, when Manila was significantly more dangerous than it is now and we would rather operate on the basis of prudence than statistics. This is a third world country in which disagreements are often settled violently and with disastrous results for the innocents caught in the crossfire. Even if, in Manila, the violence is sporadic, that fact is that many terrorist attacks here target mass transit systems. So it makes sense, at least to me, to do you can to reduce the risk, however small.

GE[/QUOTE]There is another logic to it as well.

My Government (Australian) also says do not use public transportation services anywhere as well as travel to most parts of Mindanao. My employers freak out if they learn that I have been on the MRT or a bus to anywhere or to Mindanao without having a platoon of security tracking me.

Their purpose is primarily to cover their backsides in the event that something happens to me.

They know full well that I will probably keep using buses and MRT (train) but at least they can say "we told him so" and they are immune to any subsequent charges of failure to ensure my safety.

I think there is a similar logic at play with GE and his company policy. It is also more easily understood in the case of Skip's dilemma too.

It is hard to get it right these days. You can roll the dice knowing that it is 95% likely that you WON'T be in a bomb blast, but the poor bastards on yesterday's bus were in the other 5%.

[QUOTE=Skip Kost;1116438]I understand the fear that exists right now because intelligence reports are warning that there may be more attacks.[/QUOTE]Not saying anything bad, but this logic follows the Sri Lankan case. When there was a Bomb in the Sri Lankan capital, and 3 people died, and the BBC reporter was hell bent on making it a big news, the Foreign minister calmly replied that compared to the number who died in the July 2005 bombing, and the Irish bombings, there have been far less casualties in total in Sri Lanka. Or something to that effect. And went on to add that the average death due to car / road accidents / accidental shooting / mistaken shooting in terms of Ratio is almost four times or more in US compared to Sri Lanka. And yah, it is different death, but overall. The chance of dying in Sri Lanka is less than 1/4th compared to living in US. .

Well, shock sells news, and if you don't' sensationalise anything, news will not sell.

But then again, there are those who say a long period of terror with less deaths is more terrifying (like say 10 people died over.

Yesterday I met up with Madelyn at SM Mall in Cebu. I met her from DIA about 4 years ago, she was then aged 34 and had three kids. Her husband had been murdered in Lapu Lapu several years before and she had been left to raise her three kids alone all of whom have turned out remarkably well considering. Life for Madelyn was a daily struggle, and she inspired me how she was able to raise three kids, hold down a poorly paid job and devote her life to her kids. Now Madelyn was not really my type at all and she was certainly not in my target age range. However back then I had designs on her eldest daughter who was then aged 18 and after literally months and months of on line conversations and heaps of persuasion, she finally agreed to allow me a mother and daughter threesome. She agreed to do this out of financial necessity and because she also really liked me (poor girl) and I guess I exploited these vulnerabilities for my own peverted desires

Anyway after trying out the mother and daughter combo, I lost interest in them both in a sexual way but I maintained regular contact with them and I occasionally would send her some money. I always bring her and her kids gifts and treat them to dinner every time I am in Cebu. I don't have any ulterior motives for doing this, I just admire the way she works 6 days a week in a shoe factory, working 10-12 hours a days for about 6 thousand pesos. She has raised her three kids to be decent, honest and polite.

Anyway we meet up at the Mall for lunch and Madelyn has her youngest daughter in tow, now aged 14 and 5 months pregnant. Turns out she had a Pinoy boyfriend last year, went off the rails a little bit and lo and behold she is pregnant. There were lots of tears over lunch, apparently the doctor has said that because her kid is so young she is not physically abe to give birth in the normal way and she must have a caesarian. There are also problems with the baby, the teenage mom is carrying too much water in her womb and the baby has a cleft palate that was picked up during a recent ultra sound.

Of course all this costs money and who does she turn to for help. Mortman of course. It is only one of millions of hard luck stories that you can hear everyday in the Philippines but it is much more difficult to walk away when you know the people personally as I do. I told mom I would send some money before the baby is born but that they should not rely on me to take care of all their medical expenses. I feel like a cold hearted bastard because I know that that the young mother to be and her baby could end up in a life threatening situation if she does not have the right medical care, but I am reluctant to pay the 30, 000 pesos that is needed. The teenage father is as usual nowhere to be seen and in any case is as poor as Madelyn and her family.

I am not posting here because I really need any advice although feel free to make your own observations if you wish. I just thought the story highlights how any degree of personal involvement with people can actually lead us mongers to have to make some extremely difficult and heart breaking decisions. I am still sat here trying to make my own decision.

Mortman

[QUOTE=Mortman; 1116577]. How any degree of personal involvement with people can actually lead us mongers to have to make some extremely difficult and heart breaking decisions. I am still sat here trying to make my own decision.

Mortman. [/QUOTE]Use common sense, very difficult, I know, I would not like to be in your situation now.

You are too deeply involved into these family ties already.

Ram

[quote=goodenough;1116497]we would rather operate on the basis of prudence than statistics. this is a third world country in which disagreements are often settled violently and with disastrous results for the innocents caught in the crossfire. even if, in manila, the violence is sporadic, that fact is that many terrorist attacks here target mass transit systems. so it makes sense, at least to me, to do you can to reduce the risk, however small. ge[/quote]if it's about reducing risk, why wouldn't prudence be based on the odds of an event actually occurring? obviously i don't know the historical precedents nor the past and current thinking in those places in your company where these kinds of decisions get made. but for many people, including corporate executives, there are cognitive and emotional biases that sneak into judgments, which, once they've been committed to policy, take on a life of their own quite unrelated to the actual comparative risks. the odds of being killed in a private automobile in the united states are much greater than the odds of being killed by terrorists. in the philippines or the usa so why wouldn't it be prudent to discontinue riding in private automobiles in the usa?

i can't help thinking these disproportionate judgments are based on at least two factors. one is a faulty sense of control: when i drive my own car or ride with somebody i know well, i have the sense that everything is under control. terrorists, on the other hand, seem to be far beyond my immediate control. there are people who are terrified of flying, yet their odds of being killed in a plane crash are miniscule compared to the odds of being killed in their own private autos. but with the auto there's a sense of being under control (it's a faulty sense, of course, because we'e not in control of high speed blowouts or what others do behind the wheels of their cars) ; the plane, on the other hand, is not under the individual passenger's control.

a second factor that may enter the judgment processes is public contagion. it's called terrorism for a reason. it's not just conventional warfare in which we know the relative danger of moving into the enemy's rifle range. when terrorists engage in these activities, they are counting on innocent people creating their own distorted sense of fear. the fear becomes an effective weapon that far outstrips the actual capabilities of the terrorists themselves. and when a nation's leaders and cable news entertainers whip up the fear for political and commercial purposes, they effectively do the terrorists bidding for them. who can resist the contagion of fear then, when political leaders hype the "war on terror," which unfortunately has no clearly defined enemy and creates a potential for perpetual military action to advance the agenda of whoever controls the political microphone. is there any realistic alternative to a war on terror? well, yes: the british have defined terrorism as primarily a law enforcement problem to be engaged cooperatively with law enforcement officials in other countries.

i'm sorry for getting into my shrill soapbox behavior, but not sorry enough to delete what i just wrote. my point is, it's important to sort through judgment biases that end up masquerading as prudent logic.

Mort, I feel you. Am still involved with the x inlaws and my nieces and nephews there. Have a girl Alma with medical needs WR introduced me to. Am helping her some.

It is your money. Use it to make yourself feel good. Here, a suck and fuck is 160. 00 plus tip. So, say 200. 00. I ask myself if I would rather do good or get a nut. Then just jack off and send the money alot. Not always.

I like your info about walking in the sqautter areas. How the people will introduce you to their daughters. But then you and I know we can not care about them and then leave them living like that. Like you say 6kpeso raising 3 kids working 6 days a week. You have to admire that.

I thank you for posting your thoughts here. I support you. And respect you for doing so. RED

Skip makes some excellent points. Decisions are not in fact, based exclusively on the relative odds of something occurring. In our case, and in, I suspect the cases of lots of others working in the general area of development, there are political implications that must be considered. The fact is that a westerner getting killed in a random car accident is tragic for his family, but it's not big news and has no bilateral repercussions between the government here and a foreign aid donor government. A foreigner killed as a result of terrorism however does have, or could have major implications, all of them negative. Therefore, risk, even if not significant, must be minimized to the extent feasible. To carry Skip's analogy a step further, for us, riding in a car is unavoidable, but public transport system care avoidable. Therefore, we don't use them.

I'm truly sympathetic to Mortman's plight. The number of personal tragedies jere is overwheling, and if you live here, they're unavoidable. Reading about the statistics or even individual cases is one thing. Putting a face to a specific case however hits at the core of our humanity in a much more personal way. My response has been to focus any assistance I may be able to provide on a very few people whom I know and to recognize, in so doing, that I'm helpless to affect the great masses of people who are equally deserving. That is, you can male a difference in the lives of one or two people, but that's all you can do.

GE

[QUOTE=GoodEnough; 1116665]I'm truly sympathetic to Mortman's plight. The number of personal tragedies jere is overwheling, and if you live here, they're unavoidable. Reading about the statistics or even individual cases is one thing. Putting a face to a specific case however hits at the core of our humanity in a much more personal way. My response has been to focus any assistance I may be able to provide on a very few people whom I know and to recognize, in so doing, that I'm helpless to affect the great masses of people who are equally deserving. That is, you can male a difference in the lives of one or two people, but that's all you can do.

GE[/QUOTE]I feel for Mortman too. As GE says, it's one thing to read about it or to hear others talk about it, but it's entirely different when it's someone you know well. I remember my first time in the Phils: I was invited several times by different girls to visit their families and I refused because I didn't want any impression of getting involved with the girl, let alone the family. But there was one time I relented and visited a girl's family home in Pasay City because I liked that girl a lot. That visit hit me hard seeing how they lived and yet were still cheerful. I went back to my hotel being very thankful for my own situation and have been doing my best to never complain about my circumstances because there are billions who have it much harder than I do. Like those I subsequently visited in the provinces. I have long since split from that girl, but I still send the family some money at Christmas. At least they have not come to me with dead uncle funeral requests. I too am not sure what I would do if they came to me with a Mortman-like story. Good luck Mortman, whatever you decide.

[QUOTE=Mortman; 1116577]Of course all this costs money and who does she turn to for help. Mortman of course. It is only one of millions of hard luck stories that you can hear everyday in the Philippines but it is much more difficult to walk away when you know the people personally as I do. I told mom I would send some money before the baby is born but that they should not rely on me to take care of all their medical expenses. I feel like a cold hearted bastard because I know that that the young mother to be and her baby could end up in a life threatening situation if she does not have the right medical care, but I am reluctant to pay the 30, 000 pesos that is needed. The teenage father is as usual nowhere to be seen and in any case is as poor as Madelyn and her family.

Mortman[/QUOTE]Yes, been there done that, but, your case is a little different. She has a job that is paying fairly decent, all things considered. It's your decision alone to make, no one can fault which way you go. If you decide to help out, you truly are doing a good deed, but, also, you re continuing the plight of irresponsible people. The cycle will just continue. I have seen this many times. If you walk away, maybe giving a small amount, I think you can feel good that you tried to help but also, just maybe, you can break the cycle. If you give ANY amount, be prepared for the consequences, constant begging and lies, then other family members will come into play with begging and lies, etc. The more you try to help, the more lies and begging. As long as she is working, she can get a loan. Best of luck.

[QUOTE=Mortman; 1116577]I am not posting here because I really need any advice although feel free to make your own observations if you wish. I just thought the story highlights how any degree of personal involvement with people can actually lead us mongers to have to make some extremely difficult and heart breaking decisions. I am still sat here trying to make my own decision.

Mortman[/QUOTE]Hi Mortman, been reading your post. Thanks!

30, 000P is like $600 right? Not sure of your financial situation and this is only my thoughts. I'm a pervert too so don't take this the wrong way.

First of all thats pretty kinky and perverted to talk a Mother and Daughter into fucking together and it sounds like it still has weight on your soul even though you have done many things to help them after. If I was in your shoes and I could afford it I would drop the $600 just beacuse I could. You obvious care about the family so how whould you feel if there were complications after the birth? Would you spend the rest of your life wishing you would have dropped the $600? I'm sure there are self obsorbed people that would say otherwise. Either way you sound like a cool guy and I enjoy reading your posts.

Guys

Thanks for your observations. I have decided to make a meaningful contribution, probably around 15, 000. 20, 000 pesos. I want to help but don't want to be seen as a free ride every time some family emergency occurs and I already have other financial commitments in the way of Daisy my regular gf and her two kids.

I haven't been able to add further posts to the Cebu thread as I have been extremely ill these past few days with pancreatitis and laid up in bed with pain killers. Daisy god bless her came straight up from the province as soon as she heard I was not well and stayed with me last night at the Waterfront. I have a flight back to the UK today via Qatar and I pray to god I am fit enough to travel later this afternoon, I don't really want to be holed up in a hospital here unless it is completely unavoidable. Food is out of the question and I should be on an IV rather than drinking fluids orally, but again that means a visit to the hospital here in Cebu. I feel better than I did yesterday, for those that have ever had pancreatitis you will know how painful and debilitating it can be.

Mortman

[QUOTE=Skip Kost;1116438]2007: a bomb goes off in Glorietta Mall (note: not public transit) , killing 11 people.[/QUOTE]I could swear the Philippine government ruled that the Glorietta explosion was not a bomb, but a diesel fuel truck parked in the basement parking garage. I was actually in the mall at the time of that explosion. :eek: Fortunately, I was in a different wing, with 2 cute little spinners to pull me outside. Once we stopped running one of them turned to me and asked "What are we going to do now?" Surprisingly, it didn't take more than a second for me to respond with "I think we should go back to my hotel." :D

[QUOTE=Mortman; 1116777]Guys

Thanks for your observations. I have decided to make a meaningful contribution, probably around 15, 000. 20, 000 pesos. I want to help but don't want to be seen as a free ride every time some family emergency occurs and I already have other financial commitments in the way of Daisy my regular gf and her two kids.

I haven't been able to add further posts to the Cebu thread as I have been extremely ill these past few days with pancreatitis and laid up in bed with pain killers. Daisy god bless her came straight up from the province as soon as she heard I was not well and stayed with me last night at the Waterfront. I have a flight back to the UK today via Qatar and I pray to god I am fit enough to travel later this afternoon, I don't really want to be holed up in a hospital here unless it is completely unavoidable. Food is out of the question and I should be on an IV rather than drinking fluids orally, but again that means a visit to the hospital here in Cebu. I feel better than I did yesterday, for those that have ever had pancreatitis you will know how painful and debilitating it can be.

Mortman[/QUOTE]Hey Mortman,

I hope you get better quick.

In regards to your topic, I hear you. It is tough to be involved with people in a more personal sense than just P4P. If you keep in touch with enough locals here, you will here sob stories. In your situation, it is tough and you really don't have anything to gain from your relationship it appears, but you've shown compassion for them. In this instance, for your own conscience, I think if you say as you said will give a portion of the costs, that you should tell them that there won't be anymore and you'll end your communications for your sake. I say this because it appears that after giving birth, that it won't end, as it is just the beginning. I myself have been trying to figure out what to do with someone I've been with many times and had a lot of feelings for, but realize there is no future who has problems just like pretty much the majority of people there and that it won't ever end. The weird thing is with this is there are others who you will keep in contact with and they don't ever ask or bring those things up. Some people just manage a little better. Anyway, hope all works out.

[QUOTE=Steve Dubai;1116423]Good job I'd printed it, as I don; t normally do that.[/QUOTE]Me neither, I've always managed to get inside the terminal as well without any printed ticket to return home. Something to make sure I do in future.