General Info

[QUOTE=Dickhead;1872609]...'[B]No existe en espaol diferencia alguna en la pronunciacin de las letras b y v[/B]. Las dos representan hoy el sonido bilabial sonoro /b/. La ortografa espaola mantuvo por tradicin ambas letras, que en latn representaban sonidos distintos. En el espaol medieval hay abundantes muestras de confusin entre una y otra grafa, prueba de su confluencia progresiva en la representacin indistinta del mismo sonido, confluencia que era ya general en el siglo xvi. La pronunciacin de la v como labiodental no ha existido nunca en espaol, y solo se da de forma espontnea en hablantes valencianos o mallorquines y en los de algunas zonas del sur de Catalua, cuando hablan castellano, por influencia de su lengua regional. Tambin se da espontneamente en algunos puntos de Amrica por influjo de las lenguas amerindias. En el resto de los casos, es un error que cometen algunas personas por un equivocado prurito de correccin, basado en recomendaciones del pasado, pues aunque la Academia reconoci ya desde el Diccionario de Autoridades (1726-1739) que los espaoles no hacemos distincin en la pronunciacin de estas dos letras, varias ediciones de la Ortografa y de la Gramtica acadmicas de los siglos xviii, xix y principios del xx describieron, e incluso recomendaron, la pronunciacin de la v como labiodental. Se crey entonces conveniente distinguirla de la b, como ocurra en varias de las grandes lenguas europeas, entre ellas el francs y el ingls, de tan notable influjo en esas pocas; pero ya desde la Gramtica de 1911 la Academia dej de recomendar explcitamente esta distincin. En resumen, la pronunciacin correcta de la letra v en espaol es idntica a la de la b, por lo que [B]no existe oralmente ninguna diferencia en nuestro idioma entre palabras como baca y vaca, bello y vello, acerbo y acervo.[/B]'

It's the same sound, dudes. There are two ways to pronounce both letters, lips touching (labial stop) and not touching, depending on the preceding letter (s), but for any given combination of letters, bee and dee are the exact same.

Q. E. D.[/QUOTE]This is rough translation (for those who do not speak Spanish or are rusty):

There does not exist in Spanish any difference in pronunciation of the letters b and v. The two represent today the bilabial sonorous sound / b /. The Spanish orthography kept up by tradition both letters, that in the Latin represented distinct sounds. In Medieval Spain there are abundant examples of confusion between one and the other spelling, proof of this progressive confluence in the indistinct representation of the same sound, confluence that was general in the 16th century. The pronunciation of the v as a labiodental never existed in Spain, and only gave spontaneous form for inhabitants of Valencia, Mallorca and in some zones south of Catalan, when speaking Catalan is influenced by the regional language. It is also spontaneous in some parts of America by influence of the Amerindian languages. In the rest of the cases it is an error that some persons have committed by a wrong itch of correction, based on past recommendations, although the Academy recognizes the Official Dictionary (1726-1739) that <<the Spaniards does not make distinction in the pronunciation of these letters, various editions of the Orthography and the Gramatical Academys of the 18th, 19th, and the beginning of the 20th century describe and include recommendations, the pronunciation of the v like labiodental, it believed the it was convenient to distinguish the b, how it occurred in various of the great Europen languages, those of French, and English, of notable influence in those eras. But since the Gramatica of 1911 the Academy left the explicit recommendation of distinction. It resumed the pronunciation of the letter v in Spanish as identical to b, for there does not exist, orally, any difference in our language between words like baca an vaca, bello and vello, acerbo and acervo.

The Cane brought out a point about Argentina. The population there is 10% Italian. As for the 'sh' sound I've talked to people from Spain who speak the same way. Some regions use it while others do not.

[QUOTE=Dickhead;1872609]Huh. Because what the link [B]actually says[/B] about vee is: "Much like the Spanish be where the lips do not touch and there is less aspiration. " However, I would rate this site as a poor source, especially since it does not seem to know that bee is called "bay grande" while vee is called "bay chica" (other names such as 'bay larga' are also used).
One thing about the Spanish language is that there is an official authority, Real Academia Espanola in Madrid. Here you can see that they show that the two letters represent the same sound:[/QUOTE]OK, but I'm talking about the way that people "really" speak regardless of what the authority says. I've been taught Spanish from many different people from all over the Spanish-speaking world, including Spain itself, and I know for sure they don't all in practice always pronounce those two letters exactly the same way. And now that I think about it, I know darn well that not a single one of my Spanish instructors (all educated teachers) have ever told me that those two letters have an identical pronunciation. Not a single one of them have ever said that, and it's their language, and not mine. Just saying I have learned from people who are educated language instructors by profession, and none of them have ever told me that or taught me that way.

Now take that word "vagina". I've heard it routinely pronounced as "vee-hee-na" versus "bee-hee-na". In fact, I've never heard the latter pronunciation! Again, I think it comes down to where people are from, and just like with English, people don't always speak in the manner that the "authorities" would deem to be proper. Oh, and Boriman I wasn't confusing what I call the "Castilian lisp" with what I was hearing in Argentina. That lisp is a "th" sound versus the "sh" sound I was hearing in Argentina. Two totally different sounds. I've been to Spain too and had no problems understanding them while as I said, in Argentina it took me 2 to 3 days to fully understand what they were saying! The "th" lisp in Spain versus the "sh" in Argentina. Two totally different sounds my friend.

[QUOTE=TheCane;1872747]Now take that word "vagina". I've heard it routinely pronounced as "vee-hee-na" versus "bee-hee-na". In fact, I've never heard the latter pronunciation! Oh, and Boriman I wasn't confusing what I call the "Castilian lisp" with what I was hearing in Argentina. That lisp is a "th" sound versus the "sh" sound I was hearing in Argentina.[/QUOTE]I meant to write "veh-hee-na" versus "beh-hee-na". And Boriman, here is an example of what I'm talking about. Take the word "estampa" or "stamp" in English. In Buenos Aires people would say "eshstampa" with a hard emphasis on the "sh". That was enough to throw me off for a few days until I could get the pronunciation. If somebody in Madrid were to say it, perhaps they would say "ethstampa" LOL! For some reason, it was easier for me to get what was being said with the "th" versus the "sh". Perhaps because I never learned any of my Spanish from an Argentino and hadn't heard any of that "sh" sound until I went to Argentina for the first time.

[QUOTE=TheCane;1872747]OK, but I'm talking about the way that people "really" speak regardless of what the authority says. I've been taught Spanish from many different people from all over the Spanish-speaking world, including Spain itself, and I know for sure they don't all in practice always pronounce those two letters exactly the same way. And now that I think about it, I know darn well that not a single one of my Spanish instructors (all educated teachers) have ever told me that those two letters have an identical pronunciation. Not a single one of them have ever said that, and it's their language, and not mine. Just saying I have learned from people who are educated language instructors by profession, and none of them have ever told me that or taught me that way.

Now take that word "vagina". I've heard it routinely pronounced as "vee-hee-na" versus "bee-hee-na". In fact, I've never heard the latter pronunciation! Again, I think it comes down to where people are from, and just like with English, people don't always speak in the manner that the "authorities" would deem to be proper. Oh, and Boriman I wasn't confusing what I call the "Castilian lisp" with what I was hearing in Argentina. That lisp is a "th" sound versus the "sh" sound I was hearing in Argentina. Two totally different sounds. I've been to Spain too and had no problems understanding them while as I said, in Argentina it took me 2 to 3 days to fully understand what they were saying! The "th" lisp in Spain versus the "sh" in Argentina. Two totally different sounds my friend.[/QUOTE]Sir, you are wrong. No teacher from Spain, worth his or her name, would ever say be and v are pronounced differently. And if they did, I would question their credentials and ask for my money back.

[QUOTE=Yonkers44;1872952]Sir, you are wrong. No teacher from Spain, worth his or her name, would ever say be and v are pronounced differently. And if they did, I would question their credentials and ask for my money back.[/QUOTE]OK, I think this explanation finally gets at what I'm trying to say. I've been using "pronunciation" and "sound" interchangeably when those are really two different things:

The Spanish "B" (B larga) and "v" (V corta) are pronounced exactly alike. These letters have two separate sounds, hard and soft. At the beginning of a word and after "m" or "and", the hard Spanish "B/ V" closely resembles the "B" in the word "boy," except that the lips are held tense. In other situations, the "B/ V" is pronounced like an English "B" in which the lips are not allowed to touch. This is a sound that does not exist in English.

So in properly spoken Spanish, the "pronunciation" is the same, but sometimes the "sound" is hard or soft depending on the word you're using, and that's the difference I'm trying to note. And of course we have to remember that, as with any language, there will be variation among Spanish speakers.

So no sir, I neither need nor want my money back. To correct myself then, no Spanish teacher I've ever had (and I've had some excellent ones) has ever told me that the two letters always "sound" exactly the same in every word (versus how the letters are "pronounced" which is a related but slightly different matter).

I didn't expect this interesting discussion, when I took up the word vaina, to help those who are trying to learn some Spanish with a useful word. The most important thing for me about languages is to understand and to be understood, be able to communicate with the locals. Many Dominicans think that I'm Spanish, when I speak with them, but even after having lived 10 years in Madrid I will always speak like a "guiri" (a foreigner).

Letters b and v are pronounced in the same way when they are in the same situation like in vaca (cow) and bala (bullet), but v in vaca is not pronounced as the v in universidad. The rule that b and v are pronounced in the same way means that the word universidad is pronounced in the same way regardless if it was written universidad or unibersidad (latter of course being wrong).

Here is a simplified video of the pronunciation of the letters b and v. [URL]https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=t8IftUsl2XA[/URL].

[QUOTE=Nordico;1873033]I didn't expect this interesting discussion, when I took up the word vaina, to help those who are trying to learn some Spanish with a useful word. [/QUOTE]Indeed, I too was floored by the large number of responses and it did turn out to be an interesting discussion and learning point. I, speaking Spanish, coming from an Italian background, pronounce V clearly as in "Vamos" and so learning that "vamos" is equally OK, though not spelling wise, is somewhat disconcerting as I watched your video. It also explains why the Dominican, always spell wrongly.

One more story, speaking of the idiosyncrasy of a language, in this case Spanish of the mother land and that of the colonies: I was speaking with someone from the DR, about Pescado (fish), when all of a sudden, he started blathering about "sin" (pecado), which was another of those confounding episodes, much to my glee later. Later I discovered how in many of the countries of America del Sur, and in Mexico, Spanish is called "Español". Darn! LOL.

[QUOTE=Tempoecorto;1873043]Indeed, I too was floored by the large number of responses and it did turn out to be an interesting discussion and learning point. I, speaking Spanish, coming from an Italian background, pronounce V clearly as in "Vamos" and so learning that "vamos" is equally OK, though not spelling wise, is somewhat disconcerting as I watched your video. It also explains why the Dominican, always spell wrongly.

One more story, speaking of the idiosyncrasy of a language, in this case Spanish of the mother land and that of the colonies: I was speaking with someone from the DR, about Pescado (fish), when all of a sudden, he started blathering about "sin" (pecado), which was another of those confounding episodes, much to my glee later. Later I discovered how in many of the countries of America del Sur, and in Mexico, Spanish is called "Espaol". Darn! LOL.[/QUOTE]Maybe of some amusement.

Each country has its own version of Spanish.

In the Caribbean, there is often a tendency to slur and run the words together.

The Colombian wife of a friend of mine was out with her young daughter, and they heard a Puerto Rican guy talking.

The little girl asked, "Mommy, why is that man talking baby talk?

[QUOTE=TheCane;1872887]I meant to write "veh-hee-na" versus "beh-hee-na". [/QUOTE]I have never heard either of these pronunciations, but I have heard both "vah-hee-na" and "ba-hee-na", mostly the latter. Ben-the is common for 20, esepcially when dealing with motoconchos.

The letters be and v are interchangeable in several languages, for example Russian в1086;1076;1082;1072; is vodka, and in Greek the second letter of the alphabet, Beta (946;942;964;945 is pronounced víta. If Greeks want to use the hard be sound, they will put an M and a P together to get something like Charles Mpronson (Bronson), which I once saw on a movie poster in Greece.

However, I would say that the Spanish letters 'be' and 'v' are pronounced midway between their English equivalents, so they meet in the middle. So the 'be' is softer than English 'be' and the 'v' is further forward in the mouth than than the English 'be'.

Vaina also has some analogs with the Haitian word 'bagay', which seems to be the most common word in the Kreyol language and means about the same thing. (Actually comes from French word for baggage.).

[QUOTE=Yanqui69;1873127]Maybe of some amusement.

Each country has its own version of Spanish.

In the Caribbean, there is often a tendency to slur and run the words together.

The Colombian wife of a friend of mine was out with her young daughter, and they heard a Puerto Rican guy talking.

The little girl asked, "Mommy, why is that man talking baby talk?[/QUOTE]Same goes for English, if you think about it.

[QUOTE=Frannie;1873168]
Vaina also has some analogs with the Haitian word 'bagay', which seems to be the most common word in the Kreyol language and means about the same thing. (Actually comes from French word for baggage.).[/QUOTE]I did not know that derivation. Frannie, you are a mine of information on a board which can be a minefield of misinformation.

"Bagay" is used also in the abstract as "the thing I want to talk to you about" (usually a request for money) or something I learned from American movies: "Here's the thing", meaning "Here's the catch" or "Here's the main point".

As far as I know, "vaina" is only used for physical objects, but I could be wrong.

[QUOTE=TheCane;1872887]...I meant toTake the word "estampa" or "stamp" in English. In Buenos Aires people would say "eshstampa" with a hard emphasis on the "sh"...[/QUOTE]I had a friend from Spain who had this habit of using the 'sh' instead of the 's' in words. When I brought it to his attention he was embarrassed and said that he was aware that he sounded that way. I guess what must have been happening was that many Spanish speaking people he was encountering in the States kept on bringing it up.
As for Frannie, he is correct in that the same thing of slurring and running words together does occur in English. In it's extreme form this is what led to the transition from Middle English to Modern English. At one time, for words like 'knight,' the 'gh' was not silent (it was a German guttural) but now the 'gh' is silent because people wanted to speak faster. It is a common feature of all languages in the world that people want to speak faster.

Bathically, if you learn cathtilian spanish and then you thpeak like that in Mékthico, you thound like a thithy or thome kind of a maricón. Now the argies, the way they talk sounds a lot more like -zh than -sh to me.

I had a borinqueña GF one time and after dinner she would always look at me and say 'Potre?' It was weeks before I figured out she was asking if there was any dessert.

So you have the dominicanos and borinqueños swallowing their esses, while nearby you have the cubanos adding needless esses to the end of the preterite (hicistes, pusistes, vistes, etc.). It's like some kind of foreign exchange program.

[QUOTE=Dickhead;1873216]Now the argies, the way they talk sounds a lot more like -zh than -sh to me.[/QUOTE]I get this. And definitely by the time you arrive in Uruguay there's no question it's clearly "zh" versus "sh" where I found this sound to be pronounced even harder by Uruguayans!

[QUOTE=CharlesPooter;1873195]

"Bagay" is used also in the abstract as "the thing I want to talk to you about" (usually a request for money) or something I learned from American movies: "Here's the thing", meaning "Here's the catch" or "Here's the main point".

[/QUOTE]Interesting subject. In northern U.K., they had a term "that there" which was a polite reference to money owed.

"Did you ask your friend about "that there"?, a wife might ask in front of the kids.

"A bit o' goin on" was a stop gap, could be a quick bite between meals, or a wrong colored button sowed on temporarily.

I left the UK in 1960 when we had a really strong regional accent, so I had to change to be understood in NA.

So, there is a time warp. My old accent is frozen in time (1960) I can turn on the old accent, with it's sayings, but because English accents are homogenized now (Bristol DJ), when I use it over there with the old folks, I have them in stitches. It's "Well, I haven't heard THAT expression in years", and the youngsters just stare at me blankly.

(Probably like some will here for being off topic) :)