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[QUOTE=Francesco24;2334738]The cute Ann from Mango long ago. To have someone like her now, I would pay more than that. She's the only one.[/QUOTE]She was just amazing. One of the best oily girls, if not the best oily gal ever. Gorgeous, horny, and just filthy. She got so wet during every session I had with her. Yep, I might cough up a C-note for her as well.
[QUOTE=Goatscrot;2334849]I would say that there is no such thing as a "free market" in any context and the BKK GoGo scene is quite far away from most aspects os what's deemed a "free market,"
SNIP [/QUOTE]Good analysis Goat. I'm with you here. It's indeed not a free market and I would like to add another reason for that: just like anywhere else in the world the P4 P business is for the most part regulated by criminals, like mafia, pimps, mamasans, papasans, money launderers etc. It's usually not a legitimate business, conforming to laws and rules.
There is no such thing as a free market any where in the world. People like to talk about the free market in capitalism. That is hogwash. The elite bankers (especially the Federal Reserve in the US and Central Bank in other countries) who control the government determine the market. They decide on the raising or lowering of interest rates and prices generally in order to continually increase their profits. In capitalist society as in any other society the people who wield the power control the market. Similarly, in the Thailand p4p industry there are covert syndicates that are influential in overseeing prices. Establishments cannot raise or lower (especially lower) prices as they may wish.
[QUOTE=Turgid;2335118]There is no such thing as a free market any where in the world. People like to talk about the free market in capitalism. That is hogwash. The elite bankers (especially the Federal Reserve in the US and Central Bank in other countries) who control the government determine the market. They decide on the raising or lowering of interest rates and prices generally in order to continually increase their profits. In capitalist society as in any other society the people who wield the power control the market. Similarly, in the Thailand p4p industry there are covert syndicates that are influential in overseeing prices. Establishments cannot raise or lower (especially lower) prices as they may wish.[/QUOTE]Yep, could not agree more. Free market = unicorn.
Goat and Turgid, I don't see how you guys can say the BKK Go Go scene it is not a free market since there is no price enforcement mechanism and customers and girls can agree to any price and any arrangement they choose since it is a private, cash transaction between two people. But as I pointed out, prices are sticky because the girls are very reluctant to lower their price due to national peculiarities concerning Thai culture and "face. " Nonetheless the girls do vary their price all the time depending mostly on how much they need cash and whether they like the customer or not. Remember that in a previous post I said I thought the set price is the free market price based on high season aggregate supply and demand. The problem comes into play during low season when the December/January price no longer clears the market and girls are not getting barfined every night or even every week. In low season the stated price is obviously set to high, but there are market solutions to this problem.
For example, I can't recall the number of times I have made special arrangements to meet a Go Go girl or girls before work or on her or their day off. I could arrange after work sessions too, but I do not like the hours because I am usually well taken care of before they get off work and I like my beauty sleep. But when a Go Go girl comes over in the afternoon to see me, she is completely cutting out the bar, no barfine, so call it what you want, free market or grey market whatever, I am not paying the set retail price and this happens all the time.
Another example would be the ease with which a lower price from the stated set price can be obtained from many, many Go Go girls through brief negotiation. Like I have said a number of times, I do not care to negotiate because I personally feel it hurts the vibe, but I am absolutely sure that many customers do negotiate price especially now in low season and as a result they are paying under the set price currently pegged at 3000 baht. Many Go Go girls will agree to something like 2500 or even 2000 baht for ST, but then ask that the customer not tell mamasan or not tell her friends and the customer would have to be a total idiot to violate that request.
So yeah, I think the BKK P4P Go Go market is free, unregulated, and ultimately determined by supply and demand conditions. That does not mean there are not influences and pressures both from above (management / mamasans), from Thai cultural factors, and from group influence / peer pressure on the girls to conform and maintain a certain set price level, but without enforcement the girls will do what they want to do and what is in their own best interests a majority of the time, so in the end, it is a free market especially since customers too are free to do what they want like walk away if they feel the price is too high. This all feels like a free market to me, but with Thai style sticky prices to finesse and work around. 555.
[QUOTE=Goatscrot;2334849]I would say that there is no such thing as a "free market" in any context and the BKK GoGo scene is quite far away from most aspects os what's deemed a "free market," especially with mamasans who are flash signs in front of dudes with the prices on them and with gals sticking to set prices no matter how low the customer base has become. Remember in Thailand when there are less customers for any business, the modus operandi is to raise prices, not lower them. Price is not always driven by supply and demand. It is a factor, but not always the primary factor.[/QUOTE]Amen. Closest thing to a free market in our hobby used to be freelancers who negotiate with customers one-on-one without middlemen or social pressure. Sure, they still face internal pressures (face and the sense of self-worth), but they could rationalize that away by liking certain customers more than others.
Sadly, the era of plentiful and decent freelancers in Bangkok is long gone. Thermae has freelancers, but doesn't count since negotiations there can be seen by everyone, and a fairly high price floor (about 2500ST) is informally, but strictly, enforced.
As for supply and demand, that has not been going in our favor for years now. Supply is way lower (especially if you count the looks), demand is more or less constant, or maybe even increasing due to punters from new markets (India and China).
I remember the times when supply was so plentiful that the asking price (of freelancers) was often "up to you", knowing that chances are the punter will either pay the going rate (1000 baht ST) or overpay. If they quoted a high price they could lose a customer (easy to move on to another girl, with so many around), and if they quoted the going rate, lose the potential extra (often substantial). Was not that long ago, about 10 years, but seems almost like an impossible fairy tale these days.
[QUOTE=NattyBumpo;2334774] So, what this forum needs are more reports IMHO. Where did the punter go, who and what did he find there, how much did he pay, and was he happy afterwards. Now reports can be very subjective too, but at least they contain some specific information good or bad which might be useful. I am more inclined, however, to read and take seriously a report from someone I know, knows what they are talking about or with whom I share similar tastes.[/QUOTE]Nattty,
Your reports are always appreciated by me.
The first part of my recent visit to BKK is on page 15. It had what your talking about here and it got zero recognition from the group of 6 who dominate this forum. It got zero recognition from those here that do not dominate the forum. I tried to help out w my relevant info (and story) and was basically ignored.
[QUOTE=NattyBumpo;2335204]Goat and Turgid, I don't see how you guys can say the BKK Go Go scene it is not a free market since there is no price enforcement mechanism and customers and girls can agree to any price and any arrangement they choose since it is a private, cash transaction between two people. But as I pointed out, prices are sticky because the girls are very reluctant to lower their price due to national peculiarities concerning Thai culture and "face. " Nonetheless the girls do vary their price all the time depending mostly on how much they need cash and whether they like the customer or not. Remember that in a previous post I said I thought the set price is the free market price based on high season aggregate supply and demand. The problem comes into play during low season when the December/January price no longer clears the market and girls are not getting barfined every night or even every week. In low season the stated price is obviously set to high, but there are market solutions to this problem..[/QUOTE]Walk into most bars in BKK and the prices are the same for every girl the #1 girl to the worst of the bunch.
Is that your idea of a free market at work?
That's called price-fixing and collusion in its purest form!
[QUOTE=Crocodilexp;2335330]I remember the times when supply was so plentiful that the asking price (of freelancers) was often "up to you", [/QUOTE]Even as recent as 2 years ago gogo girl prices in Pattaya for me at least were 'up to you'. They still may be but since I never discuss price before I take a girl they have no chance to respond up to you or whatever rate they are seeking. I pay my girls fairly. All the gogo girls in the city know that. Having a good reputation matters.
As for Thermae being a free market wasn't there a newbie hotshot last month who said he was pulling in pretty thermae girls for 1000 or 1500 baht? If that is at all true thermae would be considered a free market. I always pay 2500 at thermae with a possible small tip if she was exceptional and allowed pics.
Guys its a no brainer. When a girl says "its up to you" she already has a price in her head and she's hoping that you would offer her more. The issue about free market is obviously related to the published price in establishments that is understood by those concerned to be the fare that is to be paid which is not dependent on the vagaries of the market but is set by those in control based on obtaining the maximum profit possible. This is not related to freelance girls who can charge what they want; they can offer you 100 baht LT if they so desire or 10,000 baht ST if they happen upon a customer with remarkable naivety, for instance.
[QUOTE=BananaBoi;2335375]Even as recent as 2 years ago gogo girl prices in Pattaya for me at least were 'up to you'. They still may be but since I never discuss price before I take a girl they have no chance to respond up to you or whatever rate they are seeking. I pay my girls fairly. All the gogo girls in the city know that. Having a good reputation matters.
As for Thermae being a free market wasn't there a newbie hotshot last month who said he was pulling in pretty thermae girls for 1000 or 1500 baht? If that is at all true thermae would be considered a free market. I always pay 2500 at thermae with a possible small tip if she was exceptional and allowed pics.[/QUOTE]Please explain fair? According to whom? Would I call it fair?
Having a good reputation? For what? Overpaying?
If one doesn't ever negotiate a lower price is that not by definition overpaying?
If that's what qualifies one for a good reputation in Pattaya please count me out.
Can I ask what you require as a minimum for service? Do you have a minimum? Lots of latex?
[QUOTE=NattyBumpo;2335204]So yeah, I think the BKK P4P Go Go market is free, unregulated, and ultimately determined by supply and demand conditions. That does not mean there are not influences and pressures both from above (management / mamasans), from Thai cultural factors, and from group influence / peer pressure on the girls to conform and maintain a certain set price level, but without enforcement the girls will do what they want to do and what is in their own best interests a majority of the time, so in the end, it is a free market especially since customers too are free to do what they want like walk away if they feel the price is too high. This all feels like a free market to me, but with Thai style sticky prices to finesse and work around. 555.[/QUOTE]Natty, I think Turgid and I are stating that there is no such thing as a free market, anywhere or at anytime. I would say that all the factors you list above are what makes it not a "free market. " It is regulated, by the business owner, which is still regulation. For one, there is pressure for the gal to get a certain number of BFs per month, so she is certainly not "free to choose" who she wants to go with at all times. I think the myth of the "free market" is that people do what is in their best interests and we all have a jolly good time.
[QUOTE=Goatscrot;2335423]Natty, I think Turgid and I are stating that there is no such thing as a free market, anywhere or at anytime. I would say that all the factors you list above are what makes it not a "free market. " It is regulated, by the business owner, which is still regulation. For one, there is pressure for the gal to get a certain number of BFs per month, so she is certainly not "free to choose" who she wants to go with at all times. I think the myth of the "free market" is that people do what is in their best interests and we all have a jolly good time.[/QUOTE]Probably closest thing to free market in LOS are the discos like Insanity, Mixx etc. I recall a couple of years ago in Climax (when it was open) girls asking for 5 k LT would usually find few takers but later at night would be reducing as the ones asking 3 k or less were being taken away. Of course there are probably other factors like end of month with rent due, mutual attraction etc but point being they are subjected to much less pressure to conform to any rates & stuff in this environment I would think.
[QUOTE=Goatscrot;2335423]Natty, I think Turgid and I are stating that there is no such thing as a free market, anywhere or at anytime. [/QUOTE]You don't think free lancer pickups at local night spots is a negotiable free market price? In Jakarta, the price varies each night depending on supply and demand. If there are lots of guys there that night, the price is higher than the nights where there are very few guys. It also depends how many girls are there and how good looking they are. The hottest girls do charge more because they know they are higher demand. I can get a plain jane in the same bar for much cheaper. I have given the exact same girl different amounts on different nights depending on supply and demand that night. The price also drops drastically right around closing time if the girl hasn't found anyone to take her yet. Sounds like a free market to me.
I have to side with the argument that supply and demand does not apply in the go go bar scene in the same way it operates in mainstream commerce where it holds true for commonly traded commodities but to a lesser extent for services when elasticity on either side restricts equivalency.
In my opinion prices in most go go's are by and large set by the owner / operators and do not fluctuate with changes in either demand or supple. Are prices cheaper in July when compared to December?
Of course.
It is true individual girls will occasionally depending on circumstances discreetly and I emphasis discreetly negotiate and leave with you for less than the prescribed fee but this does not come close to making it a free market.