Bangkok Reports

Completely agree with Mr. Chizzle re "Caveat Emptor". It seems that many people constantly forget this iron law of P4 P, along with YMMV.

Re Mr. Tooms and the discussion with Mr. Croc, I'm sorry Mr. Tooms, though I am in some ways a "fellow traveler", I think you are being at least somewhat disingenuous.

You, more than anyone else should really know that "do everything for you". (a very common line) means "do everything, but you wear a condom and you don't put it in my butt".

(frankly, I actually assume, oral or an attempt at such, a massage, and standard vaginal but covered sex in positions you want) (that's what a typical Thai girl would consider "everything")

Cannot comment on CIM, but I'll take Mr. Tooms word for it.

So, when I hear "make you happy, do everything for you", and all such and related lines I already KNOW that it means covered (sometimes even for oral, so I would immediately check on that) and I know it means no anal.

Many of these girls speak limited English, this is a standard line, they all learn from each other.

I will often playfully raise my eyebrow and say "anything / everything " ???? And then often the qualifications come out and I laugh and say "but I thought you said "everything". And the girls with a sense of humor will chuckle about it as well. Sometimes when so challenged they will nonetheless will repeat "everything", and being the skeptic that I am, I will of course say, "anal"?? and that is immediately shot down. LOL

So please, everyone. When you hear "everything for you, to make you happy", blah blah, it means covered and it means no anal. Or best said. Assume that, and if you want more, then very directly and specifically inquire about "additional service (s)".

And Mr. Tooms knows this is true, I am merely an occasional visitor and it did not take me long to learn this. He knows better.

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[QUOTE=Kickoffs;2352222]Pronunciation lessons in Bangkok thread. Great.

Use a translator as it will phonetically spell it out and likely more accurate than what you'll find here.[/QUOTE]Who said we were going for phoneticall precision? "So what the crap" works when it's said quickly and without much annunciation. I think that's awesome. I don't say it like that in the office, but at bars I do.

[QUOTE=Catire;2352287]...

Re Mr. Tooms and the discussion with Mr. Croc, I'm sorry Mr. Tooms, though I am in some ways a "fellow traveler", I think you are being at least somewhat disingenuous.

You, more than anyone else should really know that "do everything for you". (a very common line) means "do everything, but you wear a condom and you don't put it in my butt".

(frankly, I actually assume, oral or an attempt at such, a massage, and standard vaginal but covered sex in positions you want) (that's what a typical Thai girl would consider "everything")

Cannot comment on CIM, but I'll take Mr. Tooms word for it.

So, when I hear "make you happy, do everything for you", and all such and related lines I already KNOW that it means covered (sometimes even for oral, so I would immediately check on that) and I know it means no anal.

Many of these girls speak limited English, this is a standard line, they all learn from each other.

I will often playfully raise my eyebrow and say "anything / everything " ???? And then often the qualifications come out and I laugh and say "but I thought you said "everything". And the girls with a sense of humor will chuckle about it as well. Sometimes when so challenged they will nonetheless will repeat "everything", and being the skeptic that I am, I will of course say, "anal"?? and that is immediately shot down. LOL

So please, everyone. When you hear "everything for you, to make you happy", blah blah, it means covered and it means no anal. Or best said. Assume that, and if you want more, then very directly and specifically inquire about "additional service (s)".

And Mr. Tooms knows this is true, I am merely an occasional visitor and it did not take me long to learn this. He knows better.[/QUOTE]Sorry, Catire, but I do not agree with that at all. Sure, I have playfully engaged in the "Everything?" exchange with the girls, too, and many times I have still heard no mention of condom. I suppose we could devote an entire thread to what, subjectively in each and every case, is taken by some mongers and hookers as "standard service" in Thailand.

These girls know very well the little scam they hope they are pulling when they pitch themselves as giving you "Everything" for the money in order to get you to take them and then start laying out rules in the room, especially with regard to condom or no condom. Which, as I said, the girls will tell you is one of if not the most often requested service.

How do I know the girls know they are pulling a little scam with that "Everything, up to you" bit? It is right there in my initial report, although I can understand why many might miss it because I did not highlight the point.

The girls always give away a "tell" as big as a city bus that they know they tried to pull a little scam. I have done what I described in that report several times over the years and in every case the "tell" is the same. And here it is; Not one time did the girl make the argument or even allude to the argument that the reason I should give her more money, the full 2,500 baht agreed upon, is because I had told her that is what I would pay her in the bar. Not once. Instead, the only argument she had for me giving her more than the 1,000 baht I had already given her was "for taxi" (which happens even when we give them every baht that was agreed upon) and simply because she needed more money.

In other words, as she continued to ask me for more money on the way down the soi afterwards, she was really only asking me to give her a "gift" of more money, not to pay "what you said" in the bar. She knew very well what she'd hoped I would infer by her "Everything" pitch. Not once did she make that other point or even vaguely allude to it. As has been the case with all of the others who pulled that little scam and got a reduced payment for it, she never expressed even the least bit of anger, never raised her voice, not even the slightest emotional outburst about my not paying the full amount I agreed to pay her to "make me happy". She got busted on her scam, that's all. And she knew it. Her problem was I held her to what she knew I would think I was buying when she "sold" that idea to me in the bar. And she was fully aware that was her problem.

When we get scammed by the girls in the bars who ask for a Ladydrink and then order a non-existent "coke and tequila" cocktail, but it turns out they just ordered two Ladydinks for themselves, we have the right, some might say a duty, to protest and demand the amount be adjusted downward when the bill is handed to us afterwards, correct? I have done that. I know others have as well. Again, in NO case has the girl who pulled that scam dared to "act dumb" about it and try to make a passionate case that, "Hey, mister! You SAID you'd buy me drink!! Why you not pay all?" LOL. Of course not. Because they know they are the ones who pulled a scam, not the customer, not me. The customer is not acting in "bad faith" or stiffing the girl or the bar by getting that bill amount adjusted downward after that little scam has been pulled on him. And everyone involved knows it.

The "Everything, up to you, I will make you happy" bit is no different. Some of you nice fellows are way under estimating these Thai hookers' understanding of the word games they play in order to bait and switch or otherwise scam a customer into paying more and getting less. Many times it is done by them only for sport, not even for desperate need for money, btw.

[QUOTE=Byron2001;2352283]I have to say of all the posts that I have read through the years yours has been the only one that I thought upsetting enough to register just to answer it. I've been scammed by girls not delivering on what was promised with really shit attitudes, poor service, doing the runners etc but I've just accepted it as a part of life and carried on. That's going with the flow. You learn to be smart by not paying the girls upfront and negotiating quite clearly what they are up for and the consequences if they don't perform. Seeing how you behaved I can understand why girls want upfront payment now.[/QUOTE]Not only wanting full upfront payment but providing bad service to farangs. A scammed girl will tell her friends who will tell others. Who knows in the future there may be many more ISG reports of poor service by Thai hookers and longing for the good old days.

[QUOTE=Smoothy;2352337]Exactly. These guys who enjoy DATY (licking another guy's cum out of a girl's pussy) and DFK (licking another guy's cum out of a girl's mouth) with prostitutes have a different mindset.[/QUOTE]A quick shower and she might as well be a virgin. For me, sex is about the entire experience. DFK, DATY, rimming the gal, etc, are all part of the experience. I enjoy all of them, just as much as I enjoy them being done to me. Sometimes it is nice to lay back and get "serviced," but for me that is not often. I like taking the lead and directing the session.

[QUOTE=Catire;2352287]And Mr. Tooms knows this is true, I am merely an occasional visitor and it did not take me long to learn this. He knows better.[/QUOTE]When reading Tooms post, what stands out to me is that he was ok with a BBBJCIM as "everything. " And he was even patient and tried to actually communicate and show the gal what he wanted. She still didn't get it. I think he was well within to do what he did. And he was quite clear about it from the start. I'll take the opposite view of some on this thread. If we all demanded better performance and were willing to walk and pay less than agreed upon if we didn't get it, then we be getting better service overall. The gals are going to try to get away with providing as little as possible, especially FLs. I pretty much stopped taking FLs quite some time ago as I had a string of non-performers, and yes I make it known what I expect up front. I tell them in Thai, I expect you to f#ck me the way you f#ck your gig / BF or like we are in a "sex movie. ".

[QUOTE=Byron2001;2352283]I have to say of all the posts that I have read through the years yours has been the only one that I thought upsetting enough to register just to answer it. I've been scammed by girls not delivering on what was promised with really shit attitudes, poor service, doing the runners etc but I've just accepted it as a part of life and carried on. That's going with the flow. You learn to be smart by not paying the girls upfront and negotiating quite clearly what they are up for and the consequences if they don't perform. Seeing how you behaved I can understand why girls want upfront payment now.[/QUOTE]And based on your kind of go with the flow behavior, I can understand why girls feel comfortable doling out shitty service for serious (by Thai standards) money now. But I fully agree with your concept of being smart and not paying the girls upfront. There is nothing stopping you and others from continuing with that smart principle when the girl asks for the money upfront. Even if ALL the girls started asking for the money upfront. Asking ain't getting.

In my case with the Thermae girl, I only paid upfront an amount I would have been comfortable paying her even if things turned out the way they did anyway. Experience has told me there would be DATY, which I do enjoy, she'd get naked and there would be at least a few minutes of seeing what the inside of her mouth felt like on my dick. Ok, I was willing to pay 1,000 baht for that since we were already in my room. Otherwise, a request by the girl to Pay Upfront is virtually always a warning sign of trouble ahead. As it was in this case as well. The warning is that girl is setting the stage to deliver shitty service, not that the poor dear has been ripped off or cheated by too many evil customers.

That Thermae girl now knows there are some customers who actually will expect her to deliver on her sales pitch in the bar for the full amount agreed upon. I hope I am not the first and only customer willing to help her learn such a thing these days.

[QUOTE=Goatscrot;2352379]When reading Tooms post, what stands out to me is that he was ok with a BBBJCIM as "everything. " And he was even patient and tried to actually communicate and show the gal what he wanted. She still didn't get it. I think he was well within to do what he did. And he was quite clear about it from the start. I'll take the opposite view of some on this thread. If we all demanded better performance and were willing to walk and pay less than agreed upon if we didn't get it, then we be getting better service overall. The gals are going to try to get away with providing as little as possible, especially FLs. I pretty much stopped taking FLs quite some time ago as I had a string of non-performers, and yes I make it known what I expect up front. I tell them in Thai, I expect you to f#ck me the way you f#ck your gig / BF or like we are in a "sex movie. ".[/QUOTE]You are quite right, Goatscrot. However, I might be one of the rare (?) customers for whom a BBBJ+CIM is practically equal in importance as BBFS+CIP. So it was and is fairly easy for me not to feel fully ripped off by a girl who pulls a bait and switch regarding her strong implication that BBFS+CIP is on the menu if I take her. Not as long as she is still willing to deliver on a competent BBBJ+CIM. But I understand many other customers have no interest whatsoever in a finished BJ and it is all about FS.

In this particular case, the Thermae girl knew when she enthusiastically agreed to "make me happy" with a BBBJ+CIM that she had no intention of taking it anywhere beyond 6-7 minutes of a pretend-clumsy attempt while continually trying to get me back on track for what would make her happy instead of me. She never once brought that up as a reason I should give her more than the 1,000 baht I had already given her either. "But I DO for you!" Nope. She never mentioned anything like it later. Because she knew she didn't even try to DO for me. lol.

BTW, on your "I expect you to f#ck me the way you f#ck your gig / BF or like we are in a "sex movie."" approach, I can tell you that when I have simplified my negotiation with a girl down to something like that, i.e. "What do I want? I want to have sex with you like a real boyfriend and girlfriend have sex together", almost without exception the girl immediately knows that means No Condom, will say so and will either agree to or reject the offer on that basis.

That is how well versed and understanding Thai hookers are of the pertinent words and the meaning of them in this business. And it is further evidence for how often they get asked for BBFS, which they are only too happy to play their own word games with when they pitch the "Everything, up to you, I will make you happy" bit.

[QUOTE=Goatscrot;2352376]A quick shower and she might as well be a virgin. For me, sex is about the entire experience. DFK, DATY, rimming the gal, etc, are all part of the experience. I enjoy all of them, just as much as I enjoy them being done to me. Sometimes it is nice to lay back and get "serviced," but for me that is not often. I like taking the lead and directing the session.[/QUOTE]Yeah, I just don't dwell on what the girl did with her mouth or pussy before seeing me. Since her previous customer finished and before having sex with me, she will be taking at least TWO showers and probably shoveled a spoonful or more of somtam in her mouth thanks to that previous customer's money. Which is enough to kill any living organism in there other than the girl herself.

I assume guys who like and engage in Anal sex are not dwelling too much on the fact that a big brown turd just passed through that orifice possibly less than 15-20 minutes prior. The guys who are into and engaging in insertive Anal sex, I mean.

[QUOTE=EihTooms;2352369]Sorry, Catire, but I do not agree with that at all. Sure, I have playfully engaged in the "Everything?" exchange with the girls, too, and many times I have still heard no mention of condom. I suppose we could devote an entire thread to what, subjectively in each and every case, is taken by some mongers and hookers as "standard service" in Thailand.

These girls know very well the little scam they hope they are pulling when they pitch themselves as giving you "Everything" for the money in order to get you to take them and then start laying out rules in the room, especially with regard to condom or no condom. Which, as I said, the girls will tell you is one of if not the most often requested service.

How do I know the girls know they are pulling a little scam with that "Everything, up to you" bit? It is right there in my initial report, although I can understand why many might miss it because I did not highlight the point.

The girls always give away a "tell" as big as a city bus that they know they tried to pull a little scam. I have done what I described in that report several times over the years and in every case the "tell" is the same. And here it is; Not one time did the girl make the argument or even allude to the argument that the reason I should give her more money, the full 2,500 baht agreed upon, is because I had told her that is what I would pay her in the bar. Not once. Instead, the only argument she had for me giving her more than the 1,000 baht I had already given her was "for taxi" (which happens even when we give them every baht that was agreed upon) and simply because she needed more money.

In other words, as she continued to ask me for more money on the way down the soi afterwards, she was really only asking me to give her a "gift" of more money, not to pay "what you said" in the bar. She knew very well what she'd hoped I would infer by her "Everything" pitch. Not once did she make that other point or even vaguely allude to it. As has been the case with all of the others who pulled that little scam and got a reduced payment for it, she never expressed even the least bit of anger, never raised her voice, not even the slightest emotional outburst about my not paying the full amount I agreed to pay her to "make me happy". She got busted on her scam, that's all. And she knew it. Her problem was I held her to what she knew I would think I was buying when she "sold" that idea to me in the bar..[/QUOTE]Sorry; I normally wouldn't interject on something like this, but I think some people might be confused on why you would have gone with this girl in the first place based on your great intuition of spotting scammers.

It's a little bit hard to follow some of your logic, and I actually LOL'd through some of your reasoning only because you seem like an intelligent fellow, but yet you provide some nutty details about your encounter.

This is what I gather from your initial post:

You decided to 'test' the waters of Thermae to see if you might be able to add another girl to your stable of regulars.

You found a girl that met your required attractive qualities and you felt there was some mutual attraction based on some non-verbal exchanges.

For that particular night, you decided to ignore your own prerequisite (to negotiate everything beforehand with girls on the 'Left-side); you ignored your own requirement ('for whatever reason'.

You only negotiated pricing for 2500 Baht.

In your own mind, your expectation was a for BBFS+CIP or a BBBJ+CIM finish. However, you failed and did not relay this expectation and requirement of a finish to the girl. Unless your expectation was also for a girl who had special abilities to read minds, then this expectation was in your own head.

You two negotiated for when full payment will be made; after your session is complete.

Some more of your own personal expectation was to "go with the flow, eat her pussy and see what happens tonight. " The girl, again, is unaware of this expectation from your side.

You provide an initial payment of 1000 baht as gesture of good faith; the rest after sex or BJ.

After showering, she relayed and insisted to you that the sex will be with condom. You agreed to this stipulation; "She said, 'Oh no, can only boom boom with condom. ' I said no problem (and really meant it)".

Additionally, you both agreed to BJ without condom.

In your own mind, you've set your own expectation for this session to be an oral-only session. Again, you did not relay this to the girl. Based on hope, you hoped that possibly the girl would relent and change her mind regarding the condom requirement.

Mutual oral was performed.

Her oral performance was not to your expectation and satisfaction.

As she had expected -because it wasn't vocalized and relayed exactly what your changed expectation for the night was (an oral-only session) -, she of course proceeded to move to the next stage of the session; sex with condom.

You had previously agreed to her stipulation of condom-use, but now you decide again to reiterate your incapability to perform sex with a condom.

You two go back and forth about the condom issue; for the obvious reason that good communication for the night's expectation was not relayed beforehand (before agreeing to go with the girl at Thermae and also when negotiating the condom-use after the shower).

You unilaterally decide to end the session.

Naturally since you both agreed to the meeting (at Thermae) for 2500 baht, she requested the remaining payment.

You declined to pay the remaining payment based on "Oh no, honey, we did not boom boom and you did not give me a blowjob or take good care of me. "; sex was declined from your side; BJ was performed.

Strangely, you decide to negotiate terms again by communicating "only if we boom boom or you give me a real blowjob the way I told you to give me"; you already declined sex with a condom (assuming now this is negotiating for BBFS); and you never fully defined to her your real BJ expectation before negotiating price.

The rest doesn't really matter.

If there is any misinterpretation of that night that I'm not reading correctly from that initial post, please let me know.

If your expectation was also to 'teach a lesson' to this girl in hopes of curbing her future performance for other punters, then I'd wager that the change in her behavior and performance will most likely not occur. You have zero influence over this stranger that you just met. It's highly doubtful that after her experience with you that she's come to the conclusion that "I need to ensure that all expectations are met for my clients". If she's truly a bad performer, she will most likely continue to be a bad performer. Of course her performance for you may have been bad, her performance for others may be considered good; YMMV.

Your continued argument that you were in the right on this matter seems to lie in this statement of "I was now committed to 'go with the flow and see what happens in the room' regarding anything and everything that could possibly provide a finish for me. That is, either BBFS+CIP or a BBBJ+CIM."

Again, did the girl know then and there (at Thermae) that you wanted BBFS+CIP or BBBJ+CIM?

Just based on what you wrote from your initial post, I would conclude that you scammed her out of the remaining 1500 baht.

And this "tell" thing about the girl not asking for the full 1500 baht is a bit silly too. It's not enough that she asked for the remaining payment (of 1500 baht), but she also has to include the reason that she is requesting the remaining payment "because I had told her that is what I would pay her in the bar. " I mean you just confirmed that 2500 baht was what you both agreed upon. And now you're not going to pay her the remaining payment because of her failure to provide the specific reason; therefore, she was signaling this "tell" and scamming you.

Brilliant.

TC.

[QUOTE=EihTooms;2352369]
The "Everything, up to you, I will make you happy" bit is no different. Some of you nice fellows are way under estimating these Thai hookers' understanding of the word games they play in order to bait and switch or otherwise scam a customer into paying more and getting less. Many times it is done by them only for sport, not even for desperate need for money, btw.[/QUOTE]Though I agree with you to a certain extent. I think I'll just choose to say we'll agree to disagree.

When I see an obvious scammer, I disengage myself almost immediately. (and I think my nose has developed a pretty good "scent" for this)

And I also choose, purposefully, to understand that even though it's P4 P and on a very basic level it's an "economic transaction" . Where truth in marketing is important, etc. There is also a "human", for lack of a better word. Or "personal" element to it.

Yes, this burns me sometimes, but it comes with the territory. Generally speaking though, it tends to work to my benefit because combined with my natural approach to look for the less experienced girls, it tends to be rare for me to get a "ripped off" experience with a girl. Sometimes, I am even surprised / blessed to get "special treatment" from a pro.

When I half joked with my Japanese popular Thermae girl in bed about something she was doing or not doing (I don't remember specifics) I do remember her response. If this wasn't you, I wouldn't be doing it (or for this length of time) etc etc.

Let's not forget 1000 baht is still a lot of money.

[QUOTE=Nounce;2352431]Let's not forget 1000 baht is still a lot of money.[/QUOTE]For a tip, I agree. For full sex, it's quite cheap these days anywhere in the world.

[QUOTE=Smoothy;2352435]For a tip, I agree. For full sex, it's quite cheap these days anywhere in the world.[/QUOTE]In 1991 it was a lot, I guess. Hotel was sometimes cheaper than that. Girls were cheaper too.

Now BF in a bar can be 1000 for the "models". Girls with bad figure still 700. Some MPS now take 1 K or more from the total fee, Annies always took more than that. I suppose at least the MPs supply a room.

Can still get a 1 K fuck on Soi 4 but the quality of the girl will be Shite most likely. I have a great girl on Soi 4, but pay her more than 1 K in order to get a superior GFE and extra time beyond 1 Hour. Many Soi 4 girls are trying to do only 30 minutes.

Recent night, my girl was not there. Saw Pin was there just past Hooters a bit. Previously sessioned with her at Boss Massage maybe 2 years ago. Goat gave her a thumbs up but ET gave her a big thumbs down. So decided to make the control sample. The stunning deaf girl was not to be found.

Often girls do not seem as good, the 2nd time, although some improve vastly. So which was it to be? Pin has a reasonable body, but I hate the sillies. They are not a great subtle job really. Her nose has a bit the wrong curve, and ass and waist to thigh curve is so-so. Overall looks I give her a 6 and a half, but she is still better looking than most girls on the Soi. My usual Soi 4 girl is about 7 and half, but almost no tits.

Pin is kissing a bit, but she does not really get into it. Minimal tongue involved. Does not get into sex to extent of wanting to cum, so GFE-wise, she is not fully there. Her pussy is very small (no baby) and very pretty, tiny clit hard to stay on it during DATY. This does not really suit me well as full penetration was difficult. Dick is not fully in in most positions. I head to check if she had a sponge restricting penetration, but no, nothing like that. Just extra tight beyond the uterus. Possibly BBFS would help a lot.

BBBJ is so so. She likes to use her hand as well, and I like the hand to tickle balls only. The only really good working position for getting enough penetration was doggy.

My conclusion is Pin will suit guys who like a tight pussy and don't mind sillies and hand action on the dick. Her price was 1. 5 K. For me, she is not really suited, although was good enough the first time. No more repeats for me. I am just a too difficult customer. I would rather pay more but get more too as with my normal Soi 4 girl. I only found the one girl on Soi 4 that is good enough for me in recent years. It is not easy.

In general with mongering, finding a girl I want to repeat gets harder and harder. My regulars continue to dwindle down. My regular Laos girl is fabulous for GFE (with zero English) but absent from Bangkok again.