German FKK Clubs - Lounge and chat area

Several posters said GT refuses entry to non-white, non East Asian folks, routinely or at least frequently enough. How does GT get away with it? Is it legal in Germany for commercial establishments to deny service and even entry to people solely based on ethnic / racial basis? I can understand if they were denied entry due to rude behavior, obvious drunkenness, etc but the comments did not have any such caveats, simply said certain races are denied entry, almost as a matter of fact. I have never attended myself, don't know if that is an accurate summary of the situation.

How do you prove that somebody got turned away based on ethnic / racial basis?

HB.

It's actually pretty easy and has been done at nightclubs that are thought to discriminate in my homeland. You send a clean, polite non-white person there first and listen to the excuses. Then soon after a white person is allowed in and you have your case.

If you are the owner and don't wish to argue that certain ethnics can't behave and therefore can't be admitted you are screwed. I'd say you're screwed if you tried to argue that too.

On the other hand I'm pretty sure that not many of the social justice warriors and/or authorities would help out when someone is denied entry to a brothel.

[QUOTE=HessenBub;1821614]How do you prove that somebody got turned away based on ethnic / racial basis?

HB.[/QUOTE]Claims that something like this cannot be proven are nonsense and serve only to allow the discrimination to continue unchecked. Ararat describes a simple approach that has been used time and again in the United States to expose such things as discrimination in housing.

Here's how I went about it in Thailand to expose discrimination in mongering: [POST]1816063[/POST]. Going into my "experiment", I had an idea which places in Bangkok were problematic, but it was all random in Pattaya and Phuket, with the same kind of Bangkok tactics being used (members only) whenever they didn't want to let an "undesirable" in. I had no problems in Phuket, as you shall find from the field report I wrote.

The bottom line is that in many situations, discrimination can be proven pretty easily if you want to prove it. Or, you can just as easily turn a blind eye to it. What I have said time and again is that proving it is often not the real issue. The issue is what can be done about the discriminatory practices once they have been exposed. We have laws on the books here in the United States, and they are enforced. Other countries, such as Colombia for example, have laws on the books but they are not enforced. And then I suppose there are plenty of other countries where racial / ethnic discrimination is just an accepted part of every day living.

I know that Germany has some pretty strict laws, and that a good job is done with enforcement. I don't know how those laws would apply to what goes down at GT, a place I got into, but I don't know. Maybe nobody really gives a damn about a trick of color not being able to get into a house of prostitution, which is considered to be a place of ill-repute by most of society anyway. For any of you reading this who failed to get into GT, or who fear you might not get in, let me assure you that you aren't missing anything! Well, the food was good, but there are many other FKKs with stronger line-ups and much better facilities. Trust me!

I can't, and I did not.

I said very clearly I never even visited the club yet. But several mothers said so, and not just recently but several times over the last 2,3 of years I have been reading isg. My question (it was a question and not a statement) was based on their claim.

Are you saying they never do so, I. E. Turn away on the basis of race or ethnicity? If so, then my question is moot, and it would mean their claims were false.

But if they do in fact deny entry and service to customers on the basis of race / ethnicity, my question still stands.

[QUOTE=HessenBub;1821614]How do you prove that somebody got turned away based on ethnic / racial basis?

HB.[/QUOTE]

Not sure what is your homeland.

I am aware this practice is supposed to be more widespread in Asian countries. Japan and Thailand are 2 examples. But again, I never visited, this is based on what people say here.

Japan is a modern law abiding democracy, so I don't know how such discrimination is legal there. That said, given that Japan is a very insular society, I would not be shocked if the rights of people explicitly were based in race, but I would be very surprised that Germany has any such discrimination enshrined, as it is a very open Western democracy. Anyway, this is my personal view, I could be quite wrong.


I am less interested in Thailand because laws sometimes exist only on paper in third world.

To your last statement, I disagree. Prostitution is legal in Nevada but I don't think any establishment would be able to get away denying admission to certain races. There are even fewer social justice warriors protecting the rights of mongers in the US, a notoriously uptight society in these matters, but if ever a club systematically denied entry to a certain race on a such basis, it would be shut down pronto.

pS. Proving is pretty darned easy, if a group of activists were determined to prove it, especially in this day of smartphones. Obviously the club management would not deny admission with the words "your race is xyz, you can't get in" but such direct verbal confirmation is not required. If the club management indeed enforces this 100%, video evidence gathered by a few dozen activists (mixing up time of entry, appearance, demeanor, and race, and other ambient factors) would be pretty tight circumstantial evidence.

[QUOTE=Ararat;1821619]It's actually pretty easy and has been done at nightclubs that are thought to discriminate in my homeland. You send a clean, polite non-white person there first and listen to the excuses. Then soon after a white person is allowed in and you have your case.

If you are the owner and don't wish to argue that certain ethnics can't behave and therefore can't be admitted you are screwed. I'd say you're screwed if you tried to argue that too.

On the other hand I'm pretty sure that not many of the social justice warriors and/or authorities would help out when someone is denied entry to a brothel.[/QUOTE]

You'd have to gather up what their responses are for denying entry. That would give some insight into their excuses. I've been attending GT for a long time, so I see stuff, and have pondered about this too.

The club is not a mega sized club, the lounge smaller than what people would expect coming out of Hessen.(check out the images on the website) The club gets good business as it has it's peak times during the day-evening, busier days, etc. The wait for keys to the rooms can be really long due to this reason. So, there is enough demand in the region from the nearby visitors (Belgian, Dutch, Germans, Japanese). They are still a business, and if they continue to apply the door policy, that would mean they are not hurting for business with such practice. Although I have seen some minorities (very minor like 1-2 persons at a visit), the chances of getting in is during non-busy times (like around the time they open), with a buddy that is recognized as a regular, or somebody that fits the profile to get in without being questioned. They don't like large groups entering from what I've gathered. When the business is at it's peak, highly likely they would discriminate who enter, and likely make room for regulars given the amount of personal they could support. I've heard they will question a folk if they fit a profile. I have seen a Dutch regular that is Indian attend quite a few times, and I'm sure he attends on his own. He is known by the reception ladies I believe, so no problems for him.

"No Foreigners: Nightclubs Accused of Racist Door Policies" ([URL]http://goo.gl/VG27Et[/URL]).

Excerpt: Four weeks ago, the Hanover District Court awarded the student 1,000 ($1,325) in compensation. Judge Birgit Passoke found that the club's rejection of Murat at the door violated the General Equal Treatment Law of 2006, which prohibits discrimination based on a number of factors including ethnic origin, religion and sexual orientation. She wrote in her decision that the evidence proved that "while the plaintiff was refused entry to the nightclub, guests without a recognizable immigrant background were able to enter. ".

"Germany's nightclubs called out for racism" ([URL]http://goo.gl/SFmLyO[/URL]).

Excerpt: "This is how he did it. With a group of friends some, like himself, members of Munich's Foreigners' Advisory Council Dipama tried to get into one nightclub after the other. Of the 25 clubs they paid a visit to, 20 turned him and his minority ethnic friends away. Shortly after they were rejected typical excuses were "it's a private party" and "you need a reservation" white German friends also involved in the experiment were let in without problems. Now Dipama is suing six of the clubs for a symbolic 500 worth of damages, under a German law that forbids the exclusion of anyone from public life (including nightclubs) because of their ethnic origin. The first trial there have to be individual cases opened for each club began this week. ".

How to prove a discrimination claim under EU law? ([URL]http://goo.gl/yIww9Z[/URL]).

So, we just need a few volunteers to go on record in court as being denied entry to GT. Any volunteers? (and therein lies the problem in this instance).

[QUOTE=Jnpr30;1821651]pS. Proving is pretty darned easy, if a group of activists were determined to prove it, especially in this day of smartphones. Obviously the club management would not deny admission with the words "your race is xyz, you can't get in" but such direct verbal confirmation is not required. If the club management indeed enforces this 100%, video evidence gathered by a few dozen activists (mixing up time of entry, appearance, demeanor, and race, and other ambient factors) would be pretty tight circumstantial evidence.[/QUOTE]Your 'activist' scenario is a bit reality challenged.

You think so, huh?!

In the US, pre civil right days, and for several years later, several restaurants and other commercial establishments used to routinely deny entry, not serve, and discriminate in myriad ways. Not many of the owners and managements explicitly said "this is based on race, sexual orientation, etc etc".

Yet, through circumstantial evidence alone, all of them got hit on the head, and very few do any such thing now. In the early 90's Denny's was rumored to provide "late service" to minorities. And that was pre smartphone days. And not to every single black customer either. A few cases were enough to bring them into line. Now Denny's is pretty good for everyone.

I have no idea about German legal landscape. But I am hundred percent confident that any legal brothel in the US, if it denied entry to any race/ethnic group on a systematic basis, would not have its license for long.

[QUOTE=Samplerr;1821676]Your 'activist' scenario is a bit reality challenged.[/QUOTE]

Thanks UH.

This is exactly how I was envisioning it, but you provided an actual proven example.

I think you also answered my question. I guess it is indeed illegal, so my guess is, with further such cases, this will be taken care of.

[QUOTE=UltraHappy;1821670]"No Foreigners: Nightclubs Accused of Racist Door Policies" ([URL]http://goo.gl/VG27Et[/URL]).

Excerpt: Four weeks ago, the Hanover District Court awarded the student 1,000 ($1,325) in compensation. Judge Birgit Passoke found that the club's rejection of Murat at the door violated the General Equal Treatment Law of 2006, which prohibits discrimination based on a number of factors including ethnic origin, religion and sexual orientation. She wrote in her decision that the evidence proved that "while the plaintiff was refused entry to the nightclub, guests without a recognizable immigrant background were able to enter. ".

"Germany's nightclubs called out for racism" ([URL]http://goo.gl/SFmLyO[/URL]).

Excerpt: "This is how he did it. With a group of friends some, like himself, members of Munich's Foreigners' Advisory Council Dipama tried to get into one nightclub after the other. Of the 25 clubs they paid a visit to, 20 turned him and his minority ethnic friends away. Shortly after they were rejected typical excuses were "it's a private party" and "you need a reservation" white German friends also involved in the experiment were let in without problems. Now Dipama is suing six of the clubs for a symbolic 500 worth of damages, under a German law that forbids the exclusion of anyone from public life (including nightclubs) because of their ethnic origin. The first trial there have to be individual cases opened for each club began this week. ".

How to prove a discrimination claim under EU law? ([URL]http://goo.gl/yIww9Z[/URL]).

So, we just need a few volunteers to go on record in court as being denied entry to GT. Any volunteers? (and therein lies the problem in this instance).[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=UltraHappy;1821670]How to prove a discrimination claim under EU law? ([URL]http://goo.gl/yIww9Z[/URL]).

So, we just need a few volunteers to go on record in court as being denied entry to GT. Any volunteers? (and therein lies the problem in this instance).[/QUOTE]So, now who is going to step forward and do this for an FKK sauna club? Not me! Some dance club somewhere is one thing, but to expose the discrimination of a house of prostitution in this way is to expose oneself as a purveyor of the "tutedom" within said walls! And nobody else is going to do it for us. Nobody really cares that a John can't get any pussy. So GT will continue to get away with its bullshit discriminatory door practices until somebody to challenge them on it, thereby revealing that they themselves patronize prostitutes.

[QUOTE=Jnpr30;1821680]Thanks UH.

This is exactly how I was envisioning it, but you provided an actual proven example.

I think you also answered my question. I guess it is indeed illegal, so my guess is, with further such cases, this will be taken care of.[/QUOTE]My point was that GT's discriminatory door policy will probably never be challenged due to the unwillingness of plaintiffs to bring complaints against GT. What guy wants to go on legal record as complaining of discrimination due to lack of entry into a brothel? Most of the people that GT discriminates against don't have the wherewithal to challenge GT's door policy (money, understanding of the legal system, patience, etc).

Luckily, those who skip GT in their club rotation aren't missing anything. There are lots of reasons to skip GT: (1) no under 21 year old girls allowed anymore, (2) non-transparent, seemingly discriminatory door policy (even though this policy does not apply to me), (3) prevalence of gaytime (high room waits) , and now (4) no showers for the girls in the girl locker room.

Happily, plenty of other good alternatives exist. The only thing folks are missing out on by skipping GT is their pretty decent food. I will give them that -- I enjoyed the meals there.

Well you could be right UH, but if GT indeed discriminates strictly on race, ethnicity, etc, it is bound to pi$$ off someone with the means and willing to fight. Fo example, a German citizen of Turkish origin, single and well off and not shy. That is just one example.

So much depends on the local prosecutors to bring cases and enforce laws. Cases don't always have to be filed by victims alone.

And what is the cost to the club as well. I remember Denny's settled for several millions. And again, it was not as if Denny's blanket refused entry, it was just more of a delayed service; if Denny's had simply refused to let black people in, their fine might have been much bigger.

Thousand euro might not bother GT much, but a much bigger fine due to systematic discrimination and several past offenses, it might reconsider.

Anyway, I am pretty happy to stay with my beloved Sharks and Oase, this is more of an academic discussion for me, but this came up in other threads and I can imagine it is not an academic discussion for the poor sap who drives all the way there and gets told to bug off.

[QUOTE=UltraHappy;1821687]Luckily, those who skip GT in their club rotation aren't missing anything.
Happily, plenty of other good alternatives exist. The only thing folks are missing out on by skipping GT is their pretty decent food. I will give them that -- I enjoyed the meals there.[/QUOTE]We all have our reasons for attending certain clubs, although I'm a bit different. I do jump around a lot visiting various clubs on my trips.

When was the last time you've attended GT? I've recently attended, and had good visits there. For me, most important factor is what girls are there on particular visits for my personal taste, and this goes for any club. Reports vary, and some people will write more positively about one club over another for reasons of what they find most important. That 21 yr thing has been mentioned in the past, but I do find exceptions with a few girls that I know. Kenza (Po) is the most recent girl that started at GT at 19 supposedly. Teeny girls arn't that important for me. Don't find the girl has to be a teeny for me to take interest. There are girls that look very good that are mid 20's at GT. Most of the girls I tend to take are 25 or under though. GT was definately worth visiting on my last trip. I would say those visits were top two of that trip. At the NRW, I go to Aca (now SixSens added) for the Romies, and GT for the mix.