Phnom Penh

It's not a dowry. A dowry is money and property a WOMAN brings to the man through marriage (which leads to a lot of "fun stuff" like dowry deaths: [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dowry_deaths[/url] ). We're talking about a bride price here. Common mistake, but a mistake nonetheless. Interchanging dowry and bridge price is yet another bastardization of English that became regular use. Sorry to see it repeated here.

Another mistake is that bar girls and virgins are necessarily two different things. There are dozens of virgins working in Phnom Penh bars. You can find them on 136, 130, 118, 110, etc. They might not come right out and tell you they are "khramom mom", but if they are under 24 and "only work for drinks" there's a good chance they are. You can find out more through the managers or by coming right out and asking the girls.

No bride price for girls who aren't virgins, which includes many bar girls. Right on about that.

Not every girl lives in a shit room. I've been to quite a few. All you have to do is ask usually. Some share rooms that are terrible with as many as 5 others. Some have rooms that are pretty decent. Girls that make 700-1000 a month (like some of the top earners from 104 or Cyrcee) can easily shell out 200 for a room that has AC, TV, heated shower, and everything else they need. Some girls have husbands and boyfriends overseas that send them money then they just work bars for extra money via lady drinks. What any of that has to do with 20 dollar short time I don't know.

Not every girl came through the massage circuit. Most didn't. Two dollar massage girls usually service Khmer guys and don't speak a lick of English. Bar girls are usually brought into bars through aunties, cousins, sisters and friends. Few pop in out of nowhere and start working.

There are no requirements at bars. They'll hire anyone. The worst girls usually can't cut it and they're thinned out automatically. Hard to come to work every day on time and clean on your scheduled day when you're totally cracked out. And a day away from work means a cut in pay of $5. $10. That's quite a lot when your salary is 60-80 a month. Girls who don't make enough tips or get lady drinks don't last long either.

High class girls don't work in bars. They are white skinned with crimped hair and they have cars and go to university. Their parents drives Lexus SUV's that would take me more than a year to pay for if I dedicated 100% of my income to it.

You may be an expert at cheap street scores but you don't seem to know much about the bars. Bad experience turn you off to them early on or what? I was in them nightly every day I was in Phnom Penh and I learned quite a lot.

Seems like a lot of the expats are too hardened to even be human anymore. They view each and every person as a potential adversary. I'm glad I don't have to go through life like that. I realize bar girls are human beings too. Perhaps that's why I had a much better experience with them. Not a single problem, not once. Never felt ripped off either.

Girls that live in the worst of the worst places are there because they have no other choice. I thankfully do have other choices. Same reason I don't live in a $50 room is the same reason I'm not interested in paying an extra dollar to bareback a 5 dollar street worker in a room full of used condoms filled with motodop jizz.

I'd rather take a vetted girl from a bar for $20 than take my chances with some of the places you've mentioned, but everyone is different. I had the most fun with freebies and some of the women I took out of Darling Darling. Fifty bucks is high in a country where people live on that in a month. I complained quite a bit about it myself. It doesn't make a lot of sense. But it is what it is.

The choice is overpriced quality or super lost cost stuff that's really horrible. As they say, up to you.

Gents, headed back to PP for action. Stayed at Flamengos last visit. Stepping it up this time. Is the Plantation Resort girl friendly? If not can anyone recommend a hotel that is and has a pool where me and my wingman cam hangout all day with babes we pick up.

Thanks

[QUOTE=Givency; 1448846]Gents, headed back to PP for action. Stayed at Flamengos last visit. Stepping it up this time. Is the Plantation Resort girl friendly? If not can anyone recommend a hotel that is and has a pool where me and my wingman cam hangout all day with babes we pick up.

Thanks[/QUOTE]PC-Hotel on St. 51 beside Walkabout only $25 a night Wifi, LCD TV, Satellite, in room safe, pool, etc. I know a lot nicer places, but that one isn't too bad and good location. I'm no expert on Hotels around the city. Oh, and it's lady friendly I don't know too many or any hotels in PP that aren't.

Guys help out here.

[QUOTE=Rick Rock; 1448644]Call it what you want, it's a bride price. Unless you think a girl's illiterate retired rice farmer parents from Kampong Cham who don't even have a toilet in their $1500 house are going to plan out an elaborate $5000 wedding. Most of that money is going in their pocket. If the family is well off (a rarity) they will give you some of the money back after the wedding.

Many girls you will meet already have a set price in mind. You can meet friends with one saying her family needs 5000 to marry and the other saying hers needs 3000. That has nothing to do with wedding party costs and everything to do with family finances, age, and perceived beauty.

You may find the word bride price offensive. I find it offensive that the practice even exists anywhere in the world 2013. I also find the grinding poverty in Cambodia offensive.

There's nothing about a bride price that means the woman has no say in it. She does. She might even really love you. But you'll still pay. For Khmer men who don't have money their own recourse is to try to convince her to run off an elope. It happens, but it's not as common. Results vary...[/QUOTE]At Rick

I owe you an apology, I was married and the gift box paid for 1/2 the wedding and I paid the other half. Like I said I have been to probably 20 plus weddings in Cambodia and always gave generously to the gift box because I was under the impression for all these year until today that that money went to the bride and groom. I have never been told otherwise. Until today when talking with one of my GFs university girl and she's smart too. Believe it or not. She told me no, no honey all the money in the gift box goes to the brides parents.

What? All this time I have not known that, if I knew that I wouldn't have given a red cent, but would have gone to the groom and put $20-$100 in his pocket.

So you are indeed paying a "Bride Price" I stand corrected and anyone who goes to a Khmer wedding take note the groom already paid for your food and drinks. I will never again put money in one of those boxes.

Now my GF did say that the brides family sometimes uses that money to buy land for the new couple, but if your a Barang not a chance.

I hate be wrong, but I will admit it. Members should know the true, I'll wipe the egg off my face now.

[QUOTE=Rick Rock;1448829]Not every girl came through the massage circuit. Most didn't. Two dollar massage girls usually service Khmer guys and don't speak a lick of English. Bar girls are usually brought into bars through aunties, cousins, sisters and friends. Few pop in out of nowhere and start working.[/QUOTE]It use to be like this. Couple of years ago, a girls started in a parlor like Navy, then go to work in bar and sometimes in Sisovath brothel when she was in need of fast cash or if she got a small debt. The end of the road was Toul kok brothels. But some girls was also bring directly by relatives, cousins, friends. The bar l asiate running bu Maurice an ex legionary. But the goal of their girls was to find a boyfriend or husband. The girls carreer was really short in this bar, that used to be # different# than the other.

[QUOTE=Rick Rock;1448829]I was in them nightly every day I was in Phnom Penh and I learned quite a lot.[/QUOTE]You just learn the barang bar system and nothing more. And bar is frequented by barang essentialy. So your view about girl scene in PP is very limited. In a way you live in your barang world in PP (no offense)

[QUOTE=Rick Rock;1448829]You may be an expert at cheap street scores but you don't seem to know much about the bars. Bad experience turn you off to them early on or what? I was in them nightly every day I was in Phnom Penh and I learned quite a lot.[/QUOTE]What kind of bar are you talking about? Because I can tell you the bar scene now in PP has nothing to do with bar scene 5 years ago. But for barang, girls have to found in bar. Nobody mind why the price was going from 5usd ST to 20 USD ST in less than 5 years, without mention the dramatic fall about the girls beauty, their heavy addiction to yaabaa and ma, their lousy attitude. Of course the street scene is worst than before, but prices remains the same. At least the Pattaya expat don't bring inflation to the street scene.

[QUOTE=Rick Rock;1448829]Seems like a lot of the expats are too hardened to even be human anymore. They view each and every person as a potential adversary.[/QUOTE]In a way you re right, simply because the first Pattaya came to Cambodia importing their Pattaya rules, prices etc. I can tell you they totally change the girl scene at least in PP. But most expats forgot that the opening of Malaysia labour market to viet girls have send a lot of them to Malaysia. Where they can get in day 100usd easily. So the old time of viet cuties available for 5usd in SP and 63 st brothels has gone forever, sometimes long term expat doesn t want to accept the new reality.

[QUOTE=Rick Rock;1448829]Girls that live in the worst of the worst places are there because they have no other choice. I thankfully do have other choices. Same reason I don't live in a $50 room is the same reason I'm not interested in paying an extra dollar to bareback a 5 dollar street worker in a room full of used condoms filled with motodop jizz.[/QUOTE]Oups it seem you haven t been to Cambodian brothels, first bareback is not very common, since many girls lives in the brothel the room girl is clean. No condom on the floor (but I often see it in short time room hotel).

I'd like to know where to find some beautiful Viets. Starting to develop a real thing for them. Looks like I'll be back in two months or so. Only thing I found previously were washed up girls in places like Martini and a few average at best in 2 bars on 110. Nothing comparable to the quality you find in HCMC.

Rumor has it Paris is no more.

Anyone have any info?

[QUOTE=Rick Rock; 1449089]I'd like to know where to find some beautiful Viets. Starting to develop a real thing for them. Looks like I'll be back in two months or so. Only thing I found previously were washed up girls in places like Martini and a few average at best in 2 bars on 110. Nothing comparable to the quality you find in HCMC.

Rumor has it Paris is no more.

Anyone have any info?[/QUOTE]Plenty of Viet girls in Macau massage places as well as in Singapore. Macau places girls are friendlier than Singapore. Singapore working girls seem to be stuck up and not GFE.

Even more in Vietnam. What's your point?

This is the Phnom Penh thread.

At Rick Rock,

Yeah there are probably dozens of virgins in bars (and yet I have not seen that many honestly) , but I wonder what's the big deal with virgins, I fail to see any plus in a girl with zero sexual experience or who's only good at HJ / BJ, apart rare cases it's hard to find a real porkie who's below 25 yrs old in my experience across Asia but to each his own!

Girls in 200$/month apartments? Hard to believe even in Phnom Penh, maybe the ones married with kids but 200$ is already very upscale for the average Khmers.

100-150$ eventually could fit the bill but then we're not talking about 20$ girls.

The ones I know working in 104 (AirForce, Rose Bar, Colonial) live nearby in a shithole, others live as far as Toul Tom Pong and take a tuktuk together every day to go and back, if you ask them they will show you photos of their home in the village, typically a bamboo stilt on a pond or ugly barracks in slums, that's where they all come from and where they all will go back actually, you're a bit too overoptimistic about the buying power and the status of these girls no matter if indeed they look good inside the bar, they will never be worth a dime in the khmer society as only tourists have such a high opinion of them.

What I'm trying to say is that the way they price themselves is absolutely out of their league, if they were so good they would ask 100$ to local rich khmer and korean customers in the top KTVs rather than dealing with tourists.

For instance to give you a better picture, the top Khmer / Viet hookers in PP are rumoured to make 2000$/night with the elite khmers, we're talking about famous singers and acresses fucking with politicians and millionaires who can splash 30000$ for a party and invite a crowd of celebrities and foreign guests.

So, that's the cream of the crop, a few actresses are said to have become famous because they went in bed with president Hun Sen, no idea if true or bullshit but in comparison the girls at the top KTVs or 104 are farm girls begging for money.

Massage circuit : that's a choice of life, the 2$ massages don't require any special skills, they're given accomodation and meals and haircut too, they all live together and bond together with the included camaradie, they're not required to offer full service and not even HJ if that matters, some do and some don't, so it's a pretty easy job and they're not even required to look good there's so many fuglies in 2$ massages including fatties and MILFs.

Bars are for girls who have the basic skills to play the bar game and are a bit more risk-takers, so to say.

Some will last a week, others a few months, and others will stick there forever, there's a very high turnover but in general if they want to work in a bar is to make more quick bucks rather than peanuts like in 2$ massages with smelly khmer customers or cheap charlie barangs.

Requirements at bars : yes the bar has been lowered quite a bit but they also get fired as fast as they've been hired if they can't show up in time or if they make trouble or if they steal money and tips or whatever, and this on top of bars who regurarly scam customers as much as they can so there's a fine line between being a "honest" bargirl and the endless ripoffs run by their mamasans or bar owners.

Yes, salary is 70-80 / month and 1 to 1. 50 for each ladydrink and in plus there will be a few tips here and there.

That's not to say they can't live with it but the main complaint I see is they get totally bored as for most of the time there are no customers to serve and all they can do is watch tv, play games on their phones, chit chat and gossip with the other girls. Indeed it's not a job for everybody and I don't blame them for seeking other bars or a different job after some.

And yeah, sick days are not paid and they'll be "fined" 5-10 bucks.

High class girls : of course, they've no reasons to work in the P4P industry at all, even if we talk about the upscale P4P with celebrities and politicians.

Their family will just push them into marrying another rich kid, no escape from that, on the other side it seems they've a bit more sexual freedom but then again where's the big difference in bed with any random hooker? I don't see the point unless you're keen on marrying such a high maintenance snotty ***** and dealing with her family too. If I've to go this way I'll go back to China, I've no plans to stay here long time.

Being expert of bars : no, that's not my cup of tea as you noticed, I consider them as a scam from top to bottom, here and elsewhere in Asia.

Freelance bars are a different story however, I see nothing wrong in place like Walkabout or Sharky's, that's my idea of what P4P should be all about. A balance between price and service and in a friendly atmosphere without pushy mamasans or bar owners acting as middlemen and making cash from MY shags!

It's not about bad experience, it's mostly about getting value for money, and in plus bars are mostly targeting tourists and not expats as in the past.

As an expat I avoid tourists like the plague but it's getting impossible nowadays, they're everywhere and girls have no way to tell the difference unless you speak K'mai.

I don't see the point in paying 3$ just to get a girl talking to me the same bullshits over and over (where you from? Bla bla bla) with her mamasan in the back pushing her to drink more. Why the fuck should I pay somebody to talk with me? And we're not talking about rocket science by the way but random crap I could talk with any other girl in the street or in a shop for free.

I say again, I can see most of the girls working in 136 eating or shopping around Psar Chas and Kandal. I can stop my moto and chat with them two minutes and ask them to come in my house for a quickie. Where's the differnce, and they will be ok with 10$ probably or even less as many of them are seeking a boyfriend or to upgrade into a better home for free.

Hardened expats : no, you will see the same pattern anywhere in the world believe me, we're just sick of newbies and tourists ruining the place where we live, simple as that, and I don't even talk too much about these things apart here as tourists are in a holiday mood and don't want to hear!

Bar girls are indeed human beings and some are very good! But they will never respect you if you don't know the score.

We're customers, we're a pray, a lemon to be squeezed, and they're professional liars at making you believe otherwise.

I mean I'm dating bargirls since a long time, I hear their bullshits every day, and they're the first ones to tell me to stay away from bars, I'm not allowed to go in their bars and get drunk or drink with her colleagues, they don't want to mix the two things, and I don't want to see what they really do while at work, we've a don't'ask don't tell policy so to say.

If you want to be respected don't barfine them, just ask them for a date the next day in daytime so they will think you're serious and you don't pay crazy prices and you're not a random tourist but then again if they date a tourist is just for quick bucks or eventually for marriage or sponsorships.

With me as an expat it's also for having a nice house nearby their bar but that's about it, I never splash money on dinners or shopping, actually I try and try to go eat in some decent place but I'm always taken to 1$/meal shitholes so that now I'm eating 50% khmer almost and it took me a long time to get used to that shit.

So, it's not about hardening, it's just "going local", no more no less.

Going really local would probably shock many tourists, but that's the way it is if you like genuine things rather than neon lights and smoke and mirrors.

Girls with no choice : well, it depends! They could work in a haircut saloon and earn a honest 70$/month like any other normal girl, marry a khmer guy and live in a decent place, make babies, and all.

But for reasons we've already discussed it didn't turned that way and now there's no fucking way they've any plans to work hard for a pittance and therefore their only option is to working girl around in bars or in the street in the hope of finding a white knight that will "take care" of them.

They're all deluded with this dream and most of them will not make it, but as long as they can make money out of their bodies they will never go back selling rice in the market or to clean toilets.

I know now I sound a bit hardened but these girls are the dregs of society, let's be realistic. No respectable Khmer would take them seriously, even my landlord is disgusted by the girls I take home.

They all had and gave many choices but thet refuse them all and they will go back to a normal life only when they're out of market unless they become mamasans or switch to massage parlours.

For them we're just providers, we'll always come after their family and their kids, they're as quick as telling you they love you as when telling you to fuck off the next day. Don't believe them too much. Nobody is starving in Cambodia, if they get broke they ask money around or go back to the village, all this talk about poverty is rubbish in most of the cases, their poverty is spiritual and cultural and there's no cure for that as they're not even aware of being sick and they refuse any treatment or discussions on that subject.

Overpricing : it all depends if you're a tourist or an expat. When you live here you quickly adjust to the local prices, and the longer you live here the more you will notice you were paying twice or even thrice the normal rates, and you will get tired of the endless scams and ripoffs going on and being always asked a "tourist price" pretty much anywhere. When you realize how cheap are the real prices you see no reason to pay the tourist fare and suddenly 50 bucks for a shag sounds like a huge amount of money because that's exactly what it is! Only the rich khmers would pay so much and only for top stunners in KTVs, never ever in bars in the riverside, they would not even look at those illiterate farm girls speaking a rough dialect from the countryside!

[QUOTE=GooberMonger;1448696]I don't understand Rick why you have to be so racists and derogatory against Khmer people and disrespectful of their culture when you have never been here long enough to even have a chance to understand it.[/QUOTE]Indeed.

As much as the Khmer are no saints they're miles away from the greedyness and bad attitudes of Thais and Viets.

[QUOTE=GooberMonger; 1449023]At Rick

I hate be wrong, but I will admit it. Members should know the true, I'll wipe the egg off my face now.[/QUOTE]Respect for a man, who can admit he is wrong.

[QUOTE=ThePrinz; 1448614]At Rick,

It's all about money, yeah she will marry you and the family will treat you like a king but after that you'll be supposed to be milked forever and squeezed like a lemon, no matter if you take the girl overseas they will ask cash to be wired via western union or whatever that's how it works I've seen WU offices even in godforsaken villages of india and nepal where they've barely running water and electricity.

Will she love you? Never ever. She will just be your "maid" doing sex on the side, that's the best scenario actually, in the worst scenario she will get homesick and do any sort of crazy drama, cry all day, going into deep depression, and all, maybe also as a trick to force you to take her back to her home where she will find a new local husband.

There's a whole industry around this, girls in poor areas are private property of their families, they can refuse a few guys but they're supposed to accept the family's will in the end, and money is always the most important factor involved in the choice.

So, personally I can't see the point into playing this game, it's a game you cannot win unless you're really lucky and find a good girl that genuinely likes you etc etc.

Of course you can do it in Cambodia and price will vary, Goober gave you a realistic idea of the prices involved in a wedding party, it can't be rock bottom cheap as it's first and foremost and occasion for the family to gain face! The more people they can invite, the more monks they can pay. It's all face and status symbol earned.

If you're so fool to take such a girl back in the West you're in for a big disappointment, these farm girls could hardly fit into a city like Phnom Penh, let alone in europe or america or australia with nobody speaking their language and nobody selling their local food and not a single friend to talk with. Forget it man. It would be a disaster and she'll never be happy no matter if you try your best, it's not you the problem but the whole idea of forcing her to settle down in another foreign country where she's 100% alien to pretty much anything.

A vietnamese bride with some effort can start enjoying her new life in Korea or Japan, but a khmer in Germany or Canada? No way!

They're not like the Chinese who are a bit more open to the outer world, Khmers and Thais are very insular, even some khmers born in the west are full of shit and homesick and can't wait to go back to asia.

If you really want to marry one of them, you must live here, and then it will you the one expected to learn K'mai and eat the cr-ap food she will cook you.

That's what I did with my Khmer GFs, well let's say I eat 50% Khmer and step by step I started to get a taste for it but it took me a long time.

As for the language, my Khmer is as bad as before and same for their English, we both see no point into going too far once we reach a level where we can discuss the most basic things in English.

And don't expect any philosophical discussion with her, these girl live in a very basic world, they just don't think the way we do and they see no point in overthinking unless they're artists or had a decent education, and they've also no curiosity for the outer world, they will tell you they would like to see Thailand or vietnam but once you cross the border they instantly feel like a fish out of water, they don't like the food, they can't speak with anybody, etc etc. And this was in vietnam with my GF who was originally Khmer Krom and spoke some vietnamese!

I know bargirls who lived in north America and Europe for a few years, none of them like the idea of going back apart for the easy money they got from their sponsors.

They just can not fit in, period![/QUOTE]Sorry I have to disagree with this strongly. I personaly know of many girls that live abroad have families and are very happy. Every point you have made here could happen but is not a given that it will. There are plenty of long time marriages and families around the world that started from a bar girl.

[QUOTE=ThePrinz;1449245]Going really local would probably shock many tourists, but that's the way it is if you like genuine things rather than neon lights and smoke and mirrors.[/QUOTE]The funniest is when you read ISG archives. Until almost 2005 all the barang want to try the local brothels in Svay pak, Toul kok, street 63. Trying the local scene was the must to do for barang visiting phnom penh, the bar girls scene was mostly limited to Sharky, Walkabout, Martini, l asiate and like you said the Prinz it was freelancer bar nothing more.

Now? Excepted the expats no barang tourist go to the local brothel scene. Some reports of robberies, scams and raid have scared them. So we can said also the profile of the barang tourist has totally change.

[QUOTE=ThePrinz;1449245]They all had and gave many choices but thet refuse them all and they will go back to a normal life only when they're out of market unless they become mamasans or switch to massage parlours.[/QUOTE]Totally agree ThePrinz, the sister of my favourite Viet that used to work on sisovath, find a nice viet guy (a regular customer). Just the guy wait she finish to refund her debt to the mamasan and then he offered to get married. Now she is retired from the brothel scene, she gots 2 sons and all comeback to live in vietnam. For her sister (my favourite viet) the next step was Toul kok. Note both started their career in Navy massage in street 63.

[QUOTE=ThePrinz;1449245]Overpricing : it all depends if you're a tourist or an expat. When you live here you quickly adjust to the local prices, and the longer you live here the more you will notice you were paying twice or even thrice the normal rates, and you will get tired of the endless scams and ripoffs going on and being always asked a "tourist price" pretty much anywhere. When you realize how cheap are the real prices you see no reason to pay the tourist fare and suddenly 50 bucks for a shag sounds like a huge amount of money because that's exactly what it is! Only the rich khmers would pay so much and only for top stunners in KTVs, never ever in bars in the riverside, they would not even look at those illiterate farm girls speaking a rough dialect from the countryside![/QUOTE]Absolutely Correct, only barang are able to bring bar girls to fine restaurant and walking hand in hand in the street. The brothels used to be one of the few places where Khmers and barang used to meet each other before. Not anymore now. Different ethnicity = different places for mongering.

[QUOTE=Channy;1449071]It use to be like this. Couple of years ago, a girls started in a parlor like Navy, then go to work in bar and sometimes in Sisovath brothel when she was in need of fast cash or if she got a small debt. The end of the road was Toul kok brothels. But some girls was also bring directly by relatives, cousins, friends. The bar l asiate running bu Maurice an ex legionary. But the goal of their girls was to find a boyfriend or husband. The girls carreer was really short in this bar, that used to be # different# than the other.[/quote]That's still the goal of many girls.

[quote]You just learn the barang bar system and nothing more. And bar is frequented by barang essentialy. So your view about girl scene in PP is very limited. In a way you live in your barang world in PP (no offense)[/quote]Actually I went to many other places including fish bowls, brothels (walked in and walked right back out) , freelance spots, massage spots, and off the radar KTV and beergardens with women I was brought to by Khmer workmates. How would you know what I did?

[quote]What kind of bar are you talking about? Because I can tell you the bar scene now in PP has nothing to do with bar scene 5 years ago.[/quote]Who cares about 2008? I was there in 2012-2013. This is 2013. No sense living in the past.

[quote]Oups it seem you haven t been to Cambodian brothels, first bareback is not very common, since many girls lives in the brothel the room girl is clean. No condom on the floor (but I often see it in short time room hotel).[/QUOTE]Saw them and kept on moving. Really terrible stuff, even when compared to $5-10 action elsewhere in the world.

The stuff about barebacking and condoms on the floor comes from ThePrinz, who I was responding to. Try to keep up.

[QUOTE=Shadow6491;1449429]Sorry I have to disagree with this strongly. I personaly know of many girls that live abroad have families and are very happy. Every point you have made here could happen but is not a given that it will. There are plenty of long time marriages and families around the world that started from a bar girl.[/QUOTE]Yes, but why deal with the intricacies of real life when we can simply make sweeping blanket statements to describe a whole people? It also makes it easier to paint "them" as an adversary that one needs to keep an eye on at all time.