General Info

There's a very good report, written I believe last year, by a Filipino economist whose last name is Habito. It was published by the ADB (and I think written on it's behalf) and addresses the structural causes of poverty in the country. All of the factors cited by Gangles are cited, as well as the fact that the economic system here does not encourage, or even permit, participation by a broad-based swath of society. Thus, the insufficient jobs created are accessible only to a narrow portion of the workforce, which is young, largely unskilled, and growing quickly due to a largely unchecked population growth rate. Another factor cited by Habito is the need for functioning institutions of government that are not dependent on personality cults. The fact is that here, bureaucratic systems are irrational, as is staffing and the capacity of many bureaucrats is extremely limited. Finally, the eradication of dynastic politics, and the concomitant formation of real political parties (not personality cults) are considered essential for true reform. Habito's most telling point (at least for me) is that none of these structural weaknesses can be alleviated through outside forces such as donor intervention, since true, permanent change is a function of sustained political will, which is largely absent here.

Getting to Gangle's excellent point about land titling, I know of one large donor agency that considered developing a pilot program to modify the system on a very small scale. The model to be used was based on the extensive work of De Soto. The conclusion reached, after studying the status quo, was that the system is such a complete and utter mess-and so politically charged, that implementation of an effective pilot program would have been impossible. The idea was quickly abandonned. Another problem precipitated by the murky titling "system" is that few people pay any property taxes, which is one reason that the local governments are so starved for revenues.

Quester 55 raises the reasonable question of whether there's any hope. My conclusions, after working here for 8 years are ambivalent. I have become convinced that meanginful change at the microcosmic level-of barangays, municipalities and even provinces is possible. I know because I've seen it. Whether such change is sustainable is another question and I'm not so certain of the answer. As to the macrocosm, the country as a whole, I don't believe that systemmic change is possible, as the oligarchic culture is so deeply engrained, and there's so little incentive for the few families that operate the country as a private feifdom to share the wealth.

GE

[QUOTE=Gangles;1224230]If any one of these three drivers exists in a country, or region, or comunity, then the result will be poverty. In the Philippines, all three exist.[/QUOTE]It's even more elementary than that.

The reason the Philippines is so hard to "fix" is because its problems are mostly the result of a cultural defect.

Other Asian societies have experienced rapid economic growth because they have cultures that are compatible with free market capitalism. Take China. Traditional Chinese culture values hard work, education, self-reliance and long-term planning. All of which are essential ingredients for a well functioning capitalistic society. So once economic reforms were implemented there in the early 1980s, its economy predictably took off.

On the other hand, Philippine culture is simply not compatible with capitalism. Just as societies in India and the Middle East aren't either. Most Filipinos don't save money, have a 'live for the day' mentality and rely on others for money. You cannot build a modern capitalistic economy that way. It doesn't matter who's in charge. The only realistic way to promote modest development is to impose some form of colonial rule over the Philippines. The Filipinos cannot govern themselves.

[QUOTE=FurryFriend; 1224454]It's even more elementary than that.

On the other hand, Philippine culture is simply not compatible with capitalism. Most Filipinos don't save money, have a 'live for the day' mentality and rely on others for money.[/QUOTE]I have a sweet friend who works in Manila. Family in the South. Sweet friends sisters are all married, she's the only one who is not. She has a cow for a mother, who texts her every day telling her to send money, saying the family expects her as the unmarried daughter to provide for the mother (overweight) and father (hasnt worked for past 5 years ). Poor girl has two jobs so one would think, the mother would have a level of appreciation. Sadly no appreciation is extended at all.

Girl sent a little less home a few months back, as it was her birthday so she rewarded herself with a new dress and shoes (total cost P1000 ). Mother immediately whines about how her daughter isn't sending enough to feed them etc, pushing all the guilt buttons.

I suggested to the girl she divorce herself from her parents!

But the only happy ending to this story, is that in all the 14 dates we have had, she has resolutely refused to take one centavo from me. Says to do so would be easy but she would rather live this tough life of hers with pride and self respect.

[QUOTE=FurryFriend; 1224454]It's even more elementary than that.

The reason the Philippines is so hard to "fix" is because its problems are mostly the result of a cultural defect.

Other Asian societies have experienced rapid economic growth because they have cultures that are compatible with free market capitalism. Take China. Traditional Chinese culture values hard work, education, self-reliance and long-term planning. All of which are essential ingredients for a well functioning capitalistic society. So once economic reforms were implemented there in the early 1980s, its economy predictably took off.

On the other hand, Philippine culture is simply not compatible with capitalism. Just as societies in India and the Middle East aren't either.[/QUOTE]I've been trying to decide whether or not I agree with this, and I"m still not sure. Certainly Filipinos tend to do well, to work hard and to save when overseas, but of course they're immersed in a totally different culture while there. I do know some very successful, very entrepreneurial Filipinos, but then many of them are Chinese, and even those that aren't stand out because they are such anomalies. Therefore, I think that on balance, I agree. This is largely a culture of dependency run amok, which denigrates non-conformity and values uniformity and passivity for the most part. Many-though not all-with individual initiative and drive emigrate to countries where such qualities are valued highly, and where independence of thought is valued, not disdained as it is here.

Many countries-Vietnam is the most striking example I can think of, and Indonesia is another-eventually threw off the shackles of their colonial subjugation and created vibrant societies that are developing quickly. This place never did and perhaps never will.

GE

This kind of behaviour is characteristic of the hunter-gatherer culture. And it is common throughout the Philippines. And once a person is acculturated into any culture, it is extremely difficult to change.

From my perspective, this is one reason why it is so hard for the Phils to get going economically and politically.

The behaviour of the leading families is not unexpected when seen through the lens of the hunter-gatherer culture, because in that culture, everyone owns everything, but the head man owns it all. So the leading families would see it as their right to take what they want, because it is part of the culture.

This is also why it is OK for a familyto expect a foreigner to pay when he bcomes involved with a woman. Her family see him as a new family member, and hence is possessions become common family property.

G

[QUOTE=GoodEnough; 1224869]I've been trying to decide whether or not I agree with this, and I"m still not sure. Certainly Filipinos tend to do well, to work hard and to save when overseas, but of course they're immersed in a totally different culture while there. I do know some very successful, very entrepreneurial Filipinos, but then many of them are Chinese, and even those that aren't stand out because they are such anomalies. Therefore, I think that on balance, I agree. This is largely a culture of dependency run amok, which denigrates non-conformity and values uniformity and passivity for the most part. Many-though not all-with individual initiative and drive emigrate to countries where such qualities are valued highly, and where independence of thought is valued, not disdained as it is here.

Many countries-Vietnam is the most striking example I can think of, and Indonesia is another-eventually threw off the shackles of their colonial subjugation and created vibrant societies that are developing quickly. This place never did and perhaps never will.

GE[/QUOTE]

Climates change, conditions change, and those not suitably adaptive to changing circumstance, follow a downward spiral to extinction. Given the multiple scourges of cultural dependency, corruption, rocketing over-population, incompetence, passivity, and a general lack of those capitalist 'qualities' that propel economic growth in most other Asian nations, is this country reaching an evolutionary dead end? Quite possibly so. Perhaps the situation, rather than remaining static, is going to get a lot worse.

I think it is due to corruption they think they can take that they are owed something from those that have to give to the others. The saying "where is my gift " is a give away. I find the place great along as they think you are poor once they know you have money the tone changes, unhappy, sad and crying is all a act.

These people are extroverted if they ever look different then it is a act. They do not need anything but will take everything if you let them.

This is an interesting discussion, and I appreciate Gangle's "Hunter-Gatherer" analogy. I do know that, at least from the time of the Spaniards, this has been a largely feudal culture, with home and obeisance "owned" to the feudal lord, who in turn takes care of his subjects in return for their perpetual servility. This is how it remains in much of Mindanao, with the traditional Datus almost absolute monarchs who control the fate of their extended clans and loyalists. It's what has allowed the proliferation of private armies, and since the Datu / feudal system has been politicized-and exploited most spectacularly by GMA-these guys have been able to remain in power.

GE

[QUOTE=FreebieFan; 1224758]I suggested to the girl she divorce herself from her parents!

But the only happy ending to this story, is that in all the 14 dates we have had, she has resolutely refused to take one centavo from me. Says to do so would be easy but she would rather live this tough life of hers with pride and self respect.[/QUOTE]My old boss is an American born Filipino-American who currently lives in Wisconsin. His mom, who also lives in Wisconsin (but by herself) , constantly asks him for money even though she's in her early 50s and can easily get a job. For older Filipinos raised in the Philippines, old mooching habits die hard. The younger breed who've never lived in the Philippines don't have a moocher mentality.

By the way, just yesterday, the fourth Filipino was executed in China this year for drug trafficking. Supposedly, his parents had medical bills and kept asking him for money. To get the money, he tried smugglling four pounds of heroin -- and got a lethal injection in return.

Of course, for every moocher story in the Philippines, we hear a few stories about hardworking, principled Filipinos (mostly women) like yours. I went on a date with a girl who refused taxi money and insisted on going home in a jeepney. She was fairly poor too. Those are the people I send a few hundred pesos to for Christmas.

[QUOTE=Questor55;1225000]is this country reaching an evolutionary dead end? Quite possibly so. Perhaps the situation, rather than remaining static, is going to get a lot worse.[/QUOTE]Quite the contrary. It seems the laws of natural selection favors poor people as being more likely to survive.

Many first-world Asian countries have negative population growth. In Japan, at the current rate of population decline, there'd be no one left in Japan in 250 years. At the same time, Filipino families are turning out 6-10 offsprings on average. By sheer numbers, poor people will someday overcome and destroy the rich.

Also, if the Earth suffers some eventual life-altering event (nuclear war, viral pandemic, meteor crash, etc.) , races like the Filipinos are most likely to survive and thrive in the aftermath.

[QUOTE=Frenzy3; 1225072]I think it is due to corruption they think they can take that they are owed something from those that have to give to the others. The saying "where is my gift " is a give away. I find the place great along as they think you are poor once they know you have money the tone changes, unhappy, sad and crying is all a act.

These people are extroverted if they ever look different then it is a act. They do not need anything but will take everything if you let them.[/QUOTE]It would be an interesting social experiment to both.

A) pretend to be a really poor fireigner, build up relationships based on that knowledge and then later reveal that you were fabulously rich.

B) Do the opposite.

Imagine the fun and confusion you could create.

I never fail to be amazed at the head-in-the-sand attitude of those westerners who criticise the Philippines, and particularly those who talk about Phils as a dead end country.

If I remember correctly, the last global financial crisis originated in the USA, and then spread to the other western economies. Governments, in panic, flung vast amounts of money around to keep their economies afloat. Banks and businesses were bailed out with vast amounts of taxpayers money.

What happened in the Phils? Did the govt have to behave this way? No.

Now we have another impending GFC originating out of Europe. They are talking about bail out funds of trillions of dollars. Madness. Does the Phils have to behave this way? No.

The USA has enjoyed a supposedly superiior standard of living, because it has been living on borrowed money.

Same with the Europeans, living on borrowed money.

Now the chickens are coming home to roost.

It is expected that there will be 5 million more foreclosures on homes in the USA in the coming year.

If the USA and the Europeans were forced to repay their borrowed money over the next 10 years, what would the lifestyle be like?

The average westerner lives on debt, multiple credit cards maxed out. Mortgages so high that the numbers make me dizzy.

Does the average Filipino live on debt? Some do, often to loan sharks, often borrowed within the family. But nothing like the westerner.

So, which country is the dead end country? Or countries?

G

[QUOTE=Gangles;1225245]If the USA and the Europeans were forced to repay their borrowed money over the next 10 years, what would the lifestyle be like? The average westerner lives on debt, multiple credit cards maxed out. G[/QUOTE]I don't want to spread the gloom and doom, but it looks like the USA and the Euro's are going to try to inflate their currencies as the way out of the debt burden they created. Wait till the ordinary citizen sees what happens to his purchasing power over the next 10 years. Most people in the USA and Europe don't have a clue to what is coming.

Then take a look at China. They have a real estate bubble about to burst. As the Chinese economy starts to head south, the government will find itself in real trouble for the first time since Tiananmen. I have no idea how that situation is going to turn out. Yeah, things look kind of scary to me worldwide. I am trying to diversify my assets and just stay above water. Hanging out in the PI and living relatively cheap may be a good alternative for those that have the means and ability to escape their home countries. The next election in the USA is the most important election in the last 30 years. The outcome is going to be real interesting. I think it is obvious which side I am on.

[QUOTE=Gangles; 1225245]I never fail to be amazed at the head-in-the-sand attitude of those westerners who criticise the Philippines, and particularly those who talk about Phils as a dead end country.

If I remember correctly, the last global financial crisis originated in the USA, and then spread to the other western economies.[/QUOTE]I hope you're not suggesting life is more comfortable and stable in the Philippines than the United States. I think anyone who'd seriously suggest that has never been to the Philippines. How many Filipinos want to immigrate to the US (even as a maid or laborer)? How many Americans want to immigrate to the Philippines?

Let's not talk about what will happen in the future for the US and the world. Nobody knows. If you were that sure the US will go into the toilet, you'd massively short US equities and make a fortune. We can only talk about now and the recent past. And as unstable US politics is, I should point out the Philippines has had three attempted coups in the last decade and several occasions where martial law was imposed. The last Philippine President is currently under arrest in a government hospital under charges of corruption. The President before that was given a life sentence for corruption and plunder.

Don't get me wrong. I can appreciate living an idyllic lifestyle without debt or foreign wars. But I think it's naive to think life in the Philippines is remotely worryfree or comfortable.

I actually don't mind poverty as much as corruption. People in the Philippines have to watch not stepping on the toes of someone rich or powerful. There's a culture of impunity there where people can commit crimes and hide behind their wealth or office.

I'm immediately reminded of the video below. The mayor of Davao got into policy disagreement with a city sheriff. So in front of reporters and spectators, she socked him in the face repeatedly while most people cheered. There was no consequence for the mayor despite the video being seen by hundreds of thousands.

[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kqTFB9vC8L0[/url]

If a sheriff can be treated that way publicly, what will happen to you or your family if you offend someone rich or powerful?

[QUOTE=FurryFriend; 1225296]I'm immediately reminded of the video below. The mayor of Davao got into policy disagreement with a city sheriff. So in front of reporters and spectators, she socked him in the face repeatedly while most people cheered. There was no consequence for the mayor despite the video being seen by hundreds of thousands.

[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kqTFB9vC8L0[/url]

If a sheriff can be treated that way publicly, what will happen to you or your family if you offend someone rich or powerful?[/QUOTE]The mayor is voted by the people the sheriff is not watching the video it looks like the sheriff knew why he was hit. I wish I could see the same back in aust but our gov is more corrupt at the top so useless police are rewarded not kicked out like here. I like that the local have a say.

As for ecconomy the rest of the would will be PI level one day. Assets can not devalue here much more houses are the only over price assets but even they rent out for a good return.

[QUOTE=Frenzy3;1225305]The mayor is voted by the people the sheriff is not.[/QUOTE]I didn't know being an elected official entitles you the right to physically assult someone.

In that video, the sheriff was under court order to clear some slums. The mayor opposed the order and took it out on the sheriff.

And people wonder why the Philippines has a lawless reputation.