General Info

Some mongers here seem to think that thed Phils is more corrupt than western countries, like thenUSA, or my country, Australia.

So read the recent editions of the Australian papers about corruption at the highest levels of the police forces, even in the agencies that are charged with clearing out corruption. Or go back to the GFC in the USA, when Henry Paulson, then treasury secretary, told his mates in the major banks and hedge funds that Freddie and Fannie wqere about to be nationalised. The banks and hedge funds shorted Freddie and Fannie, and made billions of dollars.

Now that is serious corruption.

Maybe the filipinos have got a few things to learn from us westerners.

As for Americans immigrating to the Philippines! Well, to start, they cannot immigrate to the Phils. But there are some pretty big numbers living in the Phils. Getting away from the rottenness of the USA. And many more living in Thailand, Cambodia, South America, Africa. Same for Australians etc, etc. So the Phils must have something going for it. And many or most of them are not there because it is the only place to live in a limited budget.

As for a first timer arriving at a new country. There are many stories of mongers being ripped off in the Phils. Taxi drivers who rip off a few dollars etc.

My experience as a first time visitor in the USA was a pair of black guys busting into my hotel room, holding me up at gunpoint, bound and gagged, stole everything of value.

Hotel security didn't give a shit. The cops didn't care. But interestingly, it became an international diplomatic incident.

Second time into the US was into La Guardia airport. Hussled at kerb side, bums and beggars husstling for nickles and dimes for helping with bags, taxi, etc.

Then we ended up driving through the Bowery, where the cab was husstled by the ultimate in low life.

Ah, yes, the USA, where life is so good.

Get real.

G

I doubt that most readers of this avid debate are naive enough to believe that corruption doesn't exist within industrialized democracies; of course it does, and NGOs such as Transparency International, among others, do a thorough job of analyzing the extent of corruption in most of the world's countries and reporting on it every year. I forget where the US and Australia ranked in the most recent index of "cleanliness," but it was near the top, though lower than that of the Nordic countries. However, to assume that because corruption is virtually universal, there's no substantive difference between the US and the Philippines or between "the West" and the Philippines, is equally fallacious. The fact is that reasonably stable Government organizations have evolved in the West (and in other places like Japan and Singapore) , and that by and large, they work. The fact is that, in general, the rule of law in these countries works, thanks to functional (not perfect) justice systems. Finally, the fact is that in these countries the corrupt are (often) prosecuted and go to jail. None of these attributes are evident in the Philippines. Then too, the standards of material wealth in the aforementioned countries beggars comparison with the Philippines, which is the only country in ASEAN to have witnessed an actual increase in poverty levels in the last decade.

The differences-both qualitative and quantitative-between the US, Canada, Western Europe, Japan, Singapore (and others) are massive and they're growing. How anyone can perceive even a rough equivalency between countries with per capita GDPs in the range of $20-25, 000 and beyond, and a country that claims a per capita GDP of about $3, 000 is beyond me. To cite one more stark series of comparisons between this place and the rest of the world, the "developed" West and Japan invest, on average, about $9, 000 per child per year in education. Rapidly developing countries in SE Asia, though they don't invest at this level, are increasing their investments: Malaysia now spends more than $2, 000 per year per child, and Vietnam spends about $1, 500. The Philippines spends about $220.

I've said before, and will reiterate here, my belief that there are three general classes of foreigners in this country: those whose work has taken them here and who generally earn Western salaries; missionaries who appear to live pretty good lives while trying to recruit the masses here to their team; and retirees who come here, for the most part, because they've married Filipinas who want to remain or return to their home country and / or have settled here because their retirement funds simply go further. Of course the ready availability of young, nubile punani is probably also a relatively consistent them throughout the sub-groups, though I'm not sure about the sexual behavior of the missionaries, if indeed there is any sexual behavior. These are three distinctly different groups, and it's therefore not so simple to generalize about motivation for relocation, except that in two of the three cases, the impetus seems to be financial.

I understand as well as anyone, that the industrialized world is at a tipping point; that the US economy is weak, the Euro zone is staggering, and that China's export and real estate bubbles could deflate soon, and I understand that the world's economy is in a perilous state. Like everyone who might eventually read this, I claim no special knowledge of whether or how the economic and political crises plaguing the developed world will be resolved. What I do know however, is that this country is basically a failed state right now, whereas most other countries in this region are not, and while there's no certainty, it would surely take a calamity of immesurable proportions for the developed world to descend to the current status of the Philippines.

GE

[QUOTE=GoodEnough; 1225579]I doubt that most readers of this avid debate are naive enough to believe that corruption doesn't exist within industrialized democracies; of course it does, and NGOs such as Transparency International, among others, do a thorough job of analyzing the extent of corruption in most of the world's countries and reporting on it every year. I forget where the US and Australia ranked in the most recent index of "cleanliness," but it was near the top, though lower than that of the Nordic countries. However, to assume that because corruption is virtually universal, there's no substantive difference between the US and the Philippines or between "the West" and the Philippines, is equally fallacious. The fact is that reasonably stable Government organizations have evolved in the West (and in other places like Japan and Singapore) , and that by and large, they work. The fact is that, in general, the rule of law in these countries works, thanks to functional (not perfect) justice systems. Finally, the fact is that in these countries the corrupt are (often) prosecuted and go to jail. None of these attributes are evident in the Philippines. Then too, the standards of material wealth in the aforementioned countries beggars comparison with the Philippines, which is the only country in ASEAN to have witnessed an actual increase in poverty levels in the last decade.

The differences-both qualitative and quantitative-between the US, Canada, Western Europe, Japan, Singapore (and others) are massive and they're growing. How anyone can perceive even a rough equivalency between countries with per capita GDPs in the range of $20-25, 000 and beyond, and a country that claims a per capita GDP of about $3, 000 is beyond me. To cite one more stark series of comparisons between this place and the rest of the world, the "developed" West and Japan invest, on average, about $9, 000 per child per year in education. Rapidly developing countries in SE Asia, though they don't invest at this level, are increasing their investments: Malaysia now spends more than $2, 000 per year per child, and Vietnam spends about $1, 500. The Philippines spends about $220.

I've said before, and will reiterate here, my belief that there are three general classes of foreigners in this country: those whose work has taken them here and who generally earn Western salaries; missionaries who appear to live pretty good lives while trying to recruit the masses here to their team; and retirees who come here, for the most part, because they've married Filipinas who want to remain or return to their home country and / or have settled here because their retirement funds simply go further. Of course the ready availability of young, nubile punani is probably also a relatively consistent them throughout the sub-groups, though I'm not sure about the sexual behavior of the missionaries, if indeed there is any sexual behavior. These are three distinctly different groups, and it's therefore not so simple to generalize about motivation for relocation, except that in two of the three cases, the impetus seems to be financial.

I understand as well as anyone, that the industrialized world is at a tipping point; that the US economy is weak, the Euro zone is staggering, and that China's export and real estate bubbles could deflate soon, and I understand that the world's economy is in a perilous state. Like everyone who might eventually read this, I claim no special knowledge of whether or how the economic and political crises plaguing the developed world will be resolved. What I do know however, is that this country is basically a failed state right now, whereas most other countries in this region are not, and while there's no certainty, it would surely take a calamity of immesurable proportions for the developed world to descend to the current status of the Philippines.

GE[/QUOTE]Well said, GE. Although I always enjoy my time in this country, the more I learn about it the more I realize that my experience of corruption is not the same as for locals. The vast bulk of corruption is hidden away and foreigners don't see it. Locals get to pay the "tax" which is a real financial burden to them personally and drives up costs which in turn puts pressure on prices and / or wages. Foreigners are sometimes offered the chance to get out of some awkward or uncomfortable situation by paying what is to them a pittance. If only things were like that in my home country, they think. But corruption is so rife here that it negates the ability of government institutions to function. You are paid such a pittance to do your state job that you opt instead to earn on the side and therefore your chief interest is no longer your function as a state employee. Put this together with the sociological items mentioned in the reports cited earlier, and you have a barely governable state and a disfunctional market that fails to provide sufficient employment or opportunities to millions and severely undermines the wage rates for those in work. This in turn fuels crime. The mugger in a western country may be robbing you because he needs his next fix. The armed mugger in Manila is likely to be robbing you out of shere desperation, to feed his family or get medicine for his kid.

[QUOTE=FurryFriend; 1225311]I didn't know being an elected official entitles you the right to physically assult someone.

In that video, the sheriff was under court order to clear some slums. The mayor opposed the order and took it out on the sheriff.

And people wonder why the Philippines has a lawless reputation.[/QUOTE]Again the court was not a vote from the people. That why the system works they can attack as they are right. Most slums are poor people only assets so unless the gov is paying them then they should fight.

[QUOTE=Frenzy3;1225697]Again the court was not a vote from the people. That why the system works they can attack as they are right. Most slums are poor people only assets so unless the gov is paying them then they should fight.[/QUOTE]A few years back, Mayor Duarte (sp?) of Davao gained some popularity when he found out about a taxi cab driver violating the rules requiring the use of meters. He had the police drag the taxi driver to his office, whereupon Mayor Duarte personally beat the crap out of the driver. He is also known for all but endorsing the "death squad" that saves the courts time by finding known drug dealers and criminals and simply having them killed.

That mayor enjoyed tremendous popularity because of his lawless reputation. Interestingly, this mayor was educated in the US, and now his daughter is the mayor of Davao.

RG

[QUOTE=Radical Guy; 1225705]A few years back, Mayor Duarte (sp?) of Davao gained some popularity when he found out about a taxi cab driver violating the rules requiring the use of meters. He had the police drag the taxi driver to his office, whereupon Mayor Duarte personally beat the crap out of the driver. He is also known for all but endorsing the "death squad" that saves the courts time by finding known drug dealers and criminals and simply having them killed.

RG[/QUOTE]The Davao Death Squad (DDS) was active for almost a decade before it went away after the US threatened to withhold financial aid if it was discovered that any government there were involved. Many believed Dutarte was behind the DDS or at least turned a blind eye.

Even the most ardent supporter of Dutarte's draconian approach would be kidding himself if he thinks only guilty people were killed. Many innocent people were killed as well as Dutarte's political enemies. Dutarte would read off a long list of people on TV whom he said were suspected criminals and some on that list would wind up dead. Imagine if YOU somehow wound up on that list because of a mistake or he didn't like your political views.

Most Davao residents indeed supported him. This reflects the sorry state of Philippine society when lawlessness is celebrated instead of having a proper and civilized legal system to deal with criminals.

[QUOTE=Frenzy3;1225697]Again the court was not a vote from the people. That why the system works they can attack as they are right. Most slums are poor people only assets so unless the gov is paying them then they should fight.[/QUOTE]

Dude, you have no idea what you're talking about. I suggest you do research on the story behind the video before voicing an opinion. Because if you did, you'd realize the cop being hit on the video has nothing to do with the court ruling.

With all due respect to those who make claims to know about Davao, most of you don't know the actual political situation here. Yes, Sarah Duterte, the Mayor punched the Sherrif in front the TV cameras, but it's important to understand the context. She had basically been up for two days, doing what she could to help poor local residents displaced by recent floods. The squatters whom the Sherrif were trying to evict were close to rioting, and all she asked the Sherrif was for a couple of hours so she could calm people down and try to help them find alternative housing. Her request, particularly in the context of the onoing flood calamity was, in my opinon, reasonable and justified in light of the restiveness of the people being evicted. So by hitting him publicly she may very well have averted a much nastier riot, and if this guy had had two functioning brain cells, he would have acceded to her request.

As to the DDS, I know no more about them than any foreigner. What I do know-from my asawa and from others here in the pre-Duterte era-is that Davao was almost unlivable and more akin to the wild west than to what it is now, which is one of the few centers of good news in the country, attracting massive investment and expanding employment opportunities for its citizens. It's clean, with decent municipal services, and I've never heard anyone here breathe a single suspicion that the Mayor has profited from this. There's no doubt that he's been a transformational figure, and he created an enclave of peace and relative prosperity in Mindanao, the poorest region in the country and he did this in a country that has virtually no functioning system of justice or working national institutions. Davao is actually an excellent place to live, and he's largely accountable for that fact. His daughter is carrying on his policies and she's doing it well. Context in this case, is everything.

GE

[quote=goodenough; 1225786]as to the dds, i know no more about them than any foreigner. what i do know-from my asawa and from others here in the pre-duterte era-is that davao was almost unlivable and more akin to the wild west than to what it is now, which is one of the few centers of good news in the country,

ge[/quote]

i have no problem with dutarte's brand of vigilante street justice if society is out of control. it's indeed worth a few innocent lives if millions can live in peace and safety.

but it seems that kind of justice was the only thing davao had in place. for all his tough talk, he spent no effort building a modern legal system and professional police force. it was all muscle and bullets and no brains. security and justice were vested in one man and a shadowy group of executioners.

i'm sure that kind of wild west system is fine for most -- unless you or someone you care about becomes falsely accused and you have no recourse when dds agents come looking. if a street girl falsely accuses you of [url=http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord123][CodeWord123][/url], you have to deal with this frightening justice system where one guy determines your fate without appeal in a smoke-filled back room.

one would also need to be delusional if he didn't think some dds victims were targeted merely for opposing dutarte.

i'm all for strict law and order. singapore has it. but the kind that reigned in davao came from the subjective power of a few unchecked people. i know their justice system is less wild now as extrajudicial killings have decreased in davao. so i wouldn't exactly say his daughter is carrying on his policies.

[QUOTE=FurryFriend; 1225793]I have no problem with Dutarte's kind of vigilante and street justice if society is out of control. It's indeed worth a few innocent lives if millions can live in peace and safety.

But it seems that kind of justice was the only thing Davao had in place. They didn't even try to build a modern legal system and professional police force. Security and justice were vested in one man and a shadowy group of executioners. One would need to be delusional if he didn't think some were targeted merely for opposing Dutarte or for in Davao.[/QUOTE]However, it's worthwhile noting that there are no city policy forces in the Philippines as the entire police force is national, and the city mayors do not control them. Ditto with the justice system, which is also national and does not report to any local official, so the Mayor has no official law enforcement powers. In my view, though you may question his methods, Duterte has created nothing less than an oasis of safety and calm in a fractious, often lawless region. I was reflecting on this a bit last night as we went to De Bonte Koe-which is in the middle of the downtown area-for dinner. There were throngs of people on the street; the bars, clubs and restaurants were almost full, and people were having a thoroughly enjoyable time.

Just as an aside, there's been a spate of recent kidnappings in Mindanao-though none in Davao. On his TV program earlier this week, Duterte mentioned that if these elements want to set foot in Davao, they're not going to leave the city while breathing. It's all fine with me. The rule of law only works when the laws are enforced. I'm thankful that Duterte cleaned this place up before I came to live here, and I thoroughly appreciate how safe I feel.

GE

[QUOTE=GoodEnough;1225795]However, it's worthwhile noting that there are no city policy forces in the Philippines as the entire police force is national, and the city mayors do not control them. Ditto with the justice system, which is also national and does not report to any local official, so the Mayor has no official law enforcement powers. In my view, though you may question his methods, Duterte has created nothing less than an oasis of safety and calm in a fractious, often lawless region. I was reflecting on this a bit last night as we went to De Bonte Koe-which is in the middle of the downtown area-for dinner. There were throngs of people on the street; the bars, clubs and restaurants were almost full, and people were having a thoroughly enjoyable time.[/QUOTE]My point is that Rodrigo Dutarte's kind of street justice was probably a necessary evil but that, at some point, it has to be replaced by more civilized justice. I just never got the perception that he wanted or cared about civilized justice. For him, he didn't see his policies as necessary evil but a desirable permanent form justice that he controlled with guns.

[QUOTE=FurryFriend;1225804]My point is that Rodrigo Dutarte's kind of street justice was probably a necessary evil but that, at some point, it has to be replaced by more civilized justice. I just never got the perception that he wanted or cared about civilized justice. For him, he didn't see his policies as necessary evil but a desirable permanent form justice that he controlled with guns.[/QUOTE]I've met the Mayor exactly twice, and my total conversation with him was probably about ten seconds, so I don't know what he thinks, about his system or about anything else. What I think is that he was determined to make Davao a place that was safe to invest and where people felt secure, and he's succeeded. No argument about the need for a functional justice system, but that's so far beyond his control that it's not even a pinpoint on the horizon.

GE

[QUOTE=FurryFriend;1225730]Dude, you have no idea what you're talking about. I suggest you do research on the story behind the video before voicing an opinion. Because if you did, you'd realize the cop being hit on the video has nothing to do with the court ruling.[/QUOTE]I think you need to get a idea your anti PI posts are getting on people nerves please stick to Hong kong you clueless about PI.

[QUOTE=Frenzy3;1225853]I think you need to get a idea your anti PI posts are getting on people nerves please stick to Hong kong you clueless about PI.[/QUOTE]Furry has been in/out phils for a long time, and has 300+ posts (more than you). To say that he needs to "get an idea" would be incorrect (even if his 'idea' is not to your liking). The beauty of being a lover of freedom (as you are, right?) is the willingness to let others speak their mind, even if you don't agree with them.

[QUOTE=GoodEnough; 1225795]The rule of law only works when the laws are enforced.

GE[/QUOTE]Now this needs to be repeated about 1000 times.

I wonder when the politically correct brain washed zombies of the west world will wake up and understand that a strong leader can mean so much more safety and freedom than a the non functioning implementation of "civilized justice" we have in most of the "modern west world". I will not discuss politics here since it is only opinions, but if I could, I would clone Roddy and install his double where I live. In Davao the people that behave are safe and the ones that misbehave are handled. Hell of a lot better than what I see around me.

B.

[QUOTE=Gangles; 1225524]So read the recent editions of the Australian papers about corruption at the highest levels of the police forces, even in the agencies that are charged with clearing out corruption. Or go back to the GFC in the USA, when Henry Paulson, then treasury secretary, told his mates in the major banks and hedge funds that Freddie and Fannie wqere about to be nationalised. The banks and hedge funds shorted Freddie and Fannie, and made billions of dollars.

Now that is serious corruption.

G[/QUOTE]Amen, Ganges! The list can be made so extremely long. On so many levels. Paulson, Ebbers, Fuld, Grubman, Standard & Poor's and the other CRA's, City, etc.

Systematic corruption that rarely is penalized. This corrupt structure also include all the extreme socialistic leaches just sitting on their asses handing out tax money to other people doing nothing. Corrupt as well!

B.