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[QUOTE=Amavida;1283575]An Oligarchic Kleptocracy underpinned by Tribalistic Nepotism. We can thank the Spanish, who after subjugating the natives for 400 odd years suddenly switched off the lights, walked out and handed over the keys to a select few. To this day those famillies maintain a vice grip on the entire political economic structure of the country. There is no way they will ever let go so the only way forward is down sadly. RP will have to crash and burn before any buggar gets a chance to change things for the better. Meanwhile some of us fortunate ones insinuate ourselves into the middle / upper layers of society and prosper at the expense of all around us.[/QUOTE]The best and most concise summary of the "Philippines Situation" that I have ever read AV.

In just 5 lines you have summarized around 500 years of history perfectly.

Well done!

Great stuff AV, and a perfect summary of the way (if not the why) things are. Econo Tech makes some excellent points too, and they get to a conundrum I've never been able to resolve, which is the reason for the insatiable greed of the oligarchs and the politicians who are their lackies. I understand corruption, and I've worked in the 3rd world for decades, so I've seen more than my share. I have never, however, seen the extent of the naked avarice I see (and hear about) in this country. In other places where I've worked-both in SE Asia and Africa-the local big shots skimmed their 10 or 20 percent, but the large projects still got built. Here, it's all stolen and very little that's new actually gets built. This is unique in my experience, but the observation is hardly unique to me.

I think it's too simplistic to blame this trait exclusively on the Spanish, though doubtless they contributed. Other countries--Malaysia, Singapore, Vietnam, Indonesia--have largely overcome the depradations of their colonizers, and their human/national development curves are rising steeply. I think the church, which has a stranglehold on much of the politics and the behavior of poor, uneducated Filipinos is partially culpable, but it doesn't fully explain the merciless rapacity of the oligarchs and politicians, nor does it explain the apparent willingness of the average Filipino to be exploited or their resignation to accepting the way things are.

I once had a boss, older and far wiser than I, who patiently explained to me once that on the continuum of countries, there are some that are "permanent beggar nations." This is one of them.

GE

[QUOTE=GoodEnough;1283673]. nor does it explain the apparent willingness of the average Filipino to be exploited or their resignation to accepting the way things are.[/QUOTE]I would simply say "almost every Filipino, including the educated ones. Like the Professor fellow I mentioned.

Either they meekly follow or just revolt for the wrong reasons. Like throw our one mad man to bring in another one.

Ever wonder what happened to Imelda? She declared herself as the second richest senator. In the SALN!

After rttf I have not found the answer so here goes. I'm visiting shortly and have bought a certain Thai lady friend a ticket so that we can spend some time together. She will have some of her own money and I was going to write a short note saying I would pay for her hotel and food. Its that necessary? She is only there 2 days. What's the opinion of the crew? Is this going to work out? I know that's a big ask but your opinion helps. Hatguy

[QUOTE=Hatguy;1283693]After rttf I have not found the answer so here goes. I'm visiting shortly and have bought a certain Thai lady friend a ticket so that we can spend some time together. She will have some of her own money and I was going to write a short note saying I would pay for her hotel and food. Its that necessary? She is only there 2 days. What's the opinion of the crew? Is this going to work out? I know that's a big ask but your opinion helps. Hatguy[/QUOTE]This is different to what most of us discuss here Hatguy.

We are mainly concerned with guys trying to take filipinas OUT of the Philippines.

I presume that you are referring to[B] in-bound tourism[/B] which will almost certainly not be queried on arrival, except to verify that she has a return (or onward) ticket for when she leaves.

The only potential hassle MIGHT be at the Thailand end, but I don't know what is the Thai attitude to the issue of "[url=http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord908][CodeWord908][/url]".

Having a note from you will be added insurance in case she is interviewed on arrival. Ensure that she has your address too for where she will stay (so that she can fill up the arrival card accurately).

Finally, suggest that she dress conservatively for travel, especially if her usual mode of dress is rather more provocative. It shouldn't be an issue but my advice to everyone travelling is to blend in with other passengers and not try to make yourself stand out in anyway.

A fellow ISGer whose opinion I respect told me the average income in PI is $12,000 USD. Now THAT puts things in perspective!

[QUOTE=MangoBob68; 1282528]Hello gentlemen,

Been reading a variety of post. Mixed toss green salad.

A few observations from my experiences: first education level of your DNA girls. I like to start off a short conversation. The Thai woman in BK asked the aussie why do foreigners he date the dark skin girls from the countryside. Her meaning they are lower class. His answer was,"they are the only ones who will date us" I think this is basically the situation.

Most university educated attractive young woman for middle and upper class families will have nothing to do with us foreign visitors. Remember I said most. Not all.

Personal example. I met a 22 year old la salle university graduate. Whoe now has her masters degree and is a finance broker for a german bank in makati.

We lasted 6 weeks. On breaking up I was surprised she "confessed" she took me for granted. She said being young and educated and me being old. True. That I was lucky to have her and I should spoil her.

At my age of 68 and still presentable. The girls I meet are working meager jobs or no job. I know the senior guys here now that once a woman reaches 26. She will have a hard time finding a job. And because of the economy. Most woman get just 4 to 6 month contract jobs in factories / economic zones and in malls.

Many woman. Actually young girls. Cannot stay in school because of expenses. We also know that quality of schools vary from place to place.

One last big point. I believe most of the girls we are meeting are as much as 20 years younger than a lot of us. Remember your thinking and interest when you were 23? Compared to you now at 40 or 40 or 60?

So please, lets keep it all in perspective. These ladies struggle just to put food on the table. We are so lucky to have the experiences. They don't have time to learn to swim, or learn horse back riding, or play golf / tennis. They not have time and money to travel and study like we do. Most don't get paid vacations as us.

Second, one fellow was asking about his viagra or any meds. Checking it or not in a bag for travel. As far as I know. As long as it is in a prescription. No problema. As for me I carrying always in my carryon and in my many visits to Philippines between 2005-2011. No questions. When I travel I keep my electronics and very personal items in my carry on just incase of lost luggage. Easy to buy replacement clothes.

Cebu pacific gives discount and faster check in if you only have a carry on. I have a favorite hotel in malate and they let me store my extra things free of charge when I go off to the vasayans.

Third, yep. Agreed woman reaching in their 30 are at thier sexual peak. They are hungry for affection with a sincere guy. But I have found the 30 to 38 year old group a tough nut to crack. They are not so easily seduced as the 20 somethings. This age group has been played one or more times.

I agree with GE about Thailand and Philippines in that Thais have a harder time fitting into aussie or german culture. I talked to two aussies in Thailand who were married to Thai ladies and they said more than 50% of the marriage with Thai ladies end in divorce. No difference from most places.

Maybe I bored you with this post. Sorry in advance.[/QUOTE]

I have written about this phenomenon before.

The behaviour of the ologarchs, and the people of the Philippines, belong to the "Hunter Gatherer" culture.

We see it in their behaviour in families, in organisations, and among the people at the top.

It is a survival mechanism. Everyone owns everything. That is, everything is shared. Any member of the extended family can turn up on the doorstep, claim hunger, need for a place to sleep, and they will be taken in. It ensures that the older members of the family are cared for. And financial crisis is met by contributions from all family members. Young people hand over their earnings to their mother, who redistributes it to other family members.

But the second part of the definition is. Everyone owns everything, but the head man owns it all.

That is, the head man is entitled to take it all for himself. And no-one will complain.

So he knows that he is entitled to take what he wants, without remorse. Head man of the family, head man of the country, head man of the government department. All head men are entitled.

To filipinos, it is not corruption, it is the way that it is done.

In my opinion, if you want to talk about corruption in the Philippines, then start at the bottom, not at the top.

The voter will sell his vote for 100 pesos, and not feel guilty of corruption. The student needing a higher grade has no compunction in offering money to the teacher for a better assessment. And so it goes, all the way up from the bottom.

When the bottom people stop acting corruptly, then the entire edifice of corruption will collapse. The oligarchs stay in power because they know that the bottom people, the voters, are corrupt. So their vote can be bought. It is purely a matter of who has the most money to buy the most votes.

GMA was reelected in 2004 because she, literally, stripped the national coffers of every centavo to buy the votes that she needed to get re-elected. Not her money. I was there, talking with civil servants who worked in Finance and Treasury, and they knew exactly what was happening. But not one of them raised a voice, because they knew that the head man owned it all, and she was entitled to take the money.

I am sure that this culture long pre-dated Spanish colonization.

It is the same culture as in Papua New Guinea, Australian aboriginals, Melanesia, Micronesia. And very hard to break out from. Some educated filipinos see that it is destroying their country, but they are not many.

G.

[QUOTE=Amavida; 1283575]An Oligarchic Kleptocracy underpinned by Tribalistic Nepotism. We can thank the Spanish, who after subjugating the natives for 400 odd years suddenly switched off the lights, walked out and handed over the keys to a select few. To this day those famillies maintain a vice grip on the entire political economic structure of the country. There is no way they will ever let go so the only way forward is down sadly. RP will have to crash and burn before any buggar gets a chance to change things for the better. Meanwhile some of us fortunate ones insinuate ourselves into the middle / upper layers of society and prosper at the expense of all around us.

AV[/QUOTE]

Maybe one of the regulars who lives in the Philippines has a better handle on average incomes more than someone who is a tourist and ISG member. I have a very hard time to believe the average salary is 12, 000 USD per year. That would be like 44, 000 pesos per month.

You really think the girls you are meeting and fucking in DIA and other websites make 40, 000 pesos per month? I like a regular- who lives in PI to confirm or not but the basic average salary. Which depends on what city you live in because the govt. Dictates the minimum wage. Is like 6000 to 10, 000 pesos = $150+ per month only.

The call center girls / guys make between 15. 20, 000 per month is considered a good salary. Even the professionals with a good job make in the 12. 25, 000 per month.

Of course there are those who own good businesses and have top jobs . Lawyers and such who make big bucks.

But to say the average is $1000 per month is extremely high. Just look at the people around you and the conditions they live. Maybe you are talking those who live in makati. The club and bar owners. Hahahahahaha.

Again. We foreigners over age 45 divorced with average looks will not easily find a good looking single woman making 44, 000 pesos per month who wants to jump in our bed.

Yes, I know some of you will say. I had a woman who has this and has that. Yeah! I didn't say it never happens. But for the most part. For most of us to meet and bed a middle class woman and above is not so easy or comes around very often.

Yeah! Like any place. You got the bucks the contacts anything is possible.

But for the average retiree as me. I am only going to get the girls who not have it so easy.

These girls are working contract work for 10, 000 per month for example or a yaya / caregiver for 2000 to 5000 per month. Maybe a shop clerk, secretary, hotel worker.

They DO NOT make 40+ thousand per month.

Your fellow ISG member has tunnel vision.

The woman who has a good job + house + family + friends don't need us mongers.

Oh. I forgot the economic rich group. The filipina who marries the foreigner then kicks him out of the 5 million peso house he built for her.

Yeah! Her income is $12, 000 PLUS (after the fact).

[quote=mangobob68; 1283927]maybe one of the regulars who lives in the philippines has a better handle on average incomes more than someone who is a tourist and isg member. i have a very hard time to believe the average salary is 12, 000 usd per year. that would be like 44, 000 pesos per month.

you really think the girls you are meeting and fucking in dia and other websites make 40, 000 pesos per month? i like a regular- who lives in pi to confirm or not but the basic average salary. which depends on what city you live in because the govt. dictates the minimum wage. is like 6000 to 10, 000 pesos = $150+ per month only.[/quote]i'm no expert, but the figures i hear confirm yours. two different massage therapists told me that they make 200-500 pesos a day, depending on the time of the year. both of them considered therapy a real step up from entry level. all of them work 12 hours a day. 7 days a week.

[QUOTE=D Cups;1283745]A fellow ISGer whose opinion I respect told me the average income in PI is $12,000 USD. Now THAT puts things in perspective![/QUOTE]That is patently absurd D Cups.

I don't know how you could believe such a figure since you have been here for extended periods.

Your ISG contact must have just finished a funny mushroom meal.

The mandated daily wage by Dept of trade & Industry is less than 500 / day (I am unsure of the exact new rate but it was raised just last week) , but no employer pays that because there is virtually NO unionism with any clout here.

Shop girls get between 250 and 400 php per day for a 6-day week depending on their employer.

Call center operators get 16, 000 to 25, 000 per month (pesos)

Do your own sums on these base amounts and you do not get near $12, 000 USD and you surely don't get an "average". Those salaries constitute the income for the majority of workers. Factor in the rice farmers (all subsistence farmers) since they live on chicken feed per week average income.

I am NOT an economist but having lived here for more than 15 years such a figure ($12, 000 USD annual income) is absurd.

hello gentlemen,

i didn't want to leave it at what i have observed in my years visiting the philippines so here is a cut and past from doing some income research for the philippines: average salary and economy.

average annual income in philippines is around 248, 182 php (5, 800 usd) , according to 2011/2012 salary survey.

philippines economy was in 2011 the 43rd largest on the world by its gdp. the largest industries in philippines are electronics, outsourcing, automotive, mining and natural resources.

for example average salary of a cpa. certified public accountant is around 360, 200 php. operations managers earn around 949, 000 php per year.

it average salaries.

employees in it receive in average from around 450, 000 php to around 700, 000 php or more per year.

zdnet asia survey shows salaries from it below. survey is from year 2009 and salaries should be around 15%.20% higher in year 2012.

so if you are an it tech you could be making $12, 000 to $15, 000 per year.

conclusion: find a hot sexy it tech to bed! that is my goal! i am searching dna right now to find one or maybe i will lower my standards and search out cpa! hahahaha.

but more realistically, we can catch ourselves a call center babe! and i am sure some of you out there have done that. one great thing about a call center babe she has to work so you are free to go out hunting for dessert.

i know a few guys who live with financially well off woman (there own money and home). they not demand anything from the guy. the men are free to come and go. so they have a good setup.

my orginal point being that the woman we meet are mostly sincere and good hearted + but poor / lower economic status and less education. but they will accept a nice guy if he can take care of her.

in my place. northern california. i cannot date a nice looking single woman **** 50. so i am lucky. the economic condition allows me to meet young single woman in the philippines. they might say they love you. but i not know. i only care how they treat me.

i have seen many guys think they are hot shit because the girls fall all over them. smile+flirt.brag how many they bed in one week or more.one guy reminded me when in thailand is that it is an adult disneyland. you cannot take everything as real!

i'm just saying. keep it all in perspective. and treat your honey ko with care as you ride them into the sunset!

Thanks for the replies (pm also). I think Ill just take my chances. I don't really want to put my name to anything so lets see what happens. Ill report back later about it.

[QUOTE=D Cups;1283745]A fellow ISGer whose opinion I respect told me the average income in PI is $12,000 USD. Now THAT puts things in perspective![/QUOTE]No it is 12, 000 peso a month after tax etc and most household only have 1 wage earner as pointed out min wage is from 280 to 400 per day depends on location

[quote=wazoo;1283959]i'm no expert, but the figures i hear confirm yours. two different massage therapists told me that they make 200-500 pesos a day, depending on the time of the year. both of them considered therapy a real step up from entry level. all of them work 12 hours a day. 7 days a week.[/quote]that's 6000 to 15, 000 how did you work it to 40, 000 per month, seems a few guys here need math lessons, no wonder some working girls have too much money

The minimum wage for filipino workers has been raised to 456 php per day (but very few businesses would pay that rate)

See this link:

http://ph.news.yahoo.com/manila-s-minimum-wage-workers-to-get-pay-raise.html

Just to add to the discussion about the extreme gulf between the "haves" and the "have-nots", check out this news story today.

[B]At least 13. 8 million adult Filipinos were unemployed in the first quarter of 2012, the latest Social Weather Stations survey showed. [/B]

That is 34. 4% of the population unemployed.

[url]http://ph.news.yahoo.com/sws--unemployment-hits-record-high.html[/url]; _ylt=AtG7vLhOEQLtfjwBiZmJLVHiV8d_; _ylu=X3oDMTQyODUzZGlzBG1pdANQSCBUb3AgU3RvcmllcyBDb2tlBHBrZwMyOWE1OTFiOC03NWQ0LTNkMzYtYTUwNi01YmI5ZDNlNWMzOGQEcG9zAzEEc2VjA2p1bWJvdHJvbl9jb2tlBHZlcgNhMDQ4ODc4MC1hMzI5LTExZTEtOTZmYS04MWQxYjZmZTU0NTM-; _ylg=X3oDMTFpNDR0a2hyBGludGwDcGgEbGFuZwNlbi1waARwc3RhaWQDBHBzdGNhdANob21lBHB0A3NlY3Rpb25z; _ylv=3