The Truth about AIDS

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Dickhead
[i]So I choose to use condoms all the time when I am with hookers, and I try to use them with amateurs" [/i][/QUOTE]

Well, from a pure statistical standpoint, there's no doubt that prostitutes have a higher level of HIV/AIDS infection than the general population, dramatically and frighteningly higher in some locales, so I'm always astonished to hear folks on this board who are willing to go bareback in the face of that. Until prostitution is absolutely legalized and sex workers are regularly tested (and this is the wrong thread for that discussion) there's always going to be a greater risk simply because sex workers are going to have more partners.

Whether or not all women (or men) cheat, the essence of the equation is that without a condom you put your life in the hands of someone who may or may not be telling you the truth. And lies about who people have or haven't slept with have gotta be the most common lies there are, unless we count words that come out of the mouths of politicians.

JZ, agree with everything you say BUT you put your life in someone else's hands every time you drive or fly (plus I like to bungee jump), etc. And AIDS is a lousy way to die but in a car accident you could become a quadriplegic which to me would be a fate worse than death.

So it kinda sounds like I'm better off letting my friend (who tells me honestly that she cannot be monogamous) blow me without a condom (she won't do it any other way) as opposed to getting in a long-term relationship with someone I can't trust.

The Truth About AIDS is .... (drum roll, please) unknown at this point. Latex condoms provide substantial risk reduction but I don't think it will ever get to the point where steady sex partners use them unless there are extenuating circumstances such as the known presence of HIV (and even then ....)

About statistics:

let's not forget that prostitution is very much a matter of class, socially I mean. Nutrition, hygiene, lifestyle, etc. do have an enormous impact on the risk one takes of having intercourse, protected or not, with a working girl.

Equally, prostitutes do not necessarily constitute a higher risk of infection (HIV or STDs) than many promiscuous "amateurs".

One thing I will never understand is why a woman would accept to have unprotected sex. For a man, I know, it is often very hard to resist the temptation of going bareback, at the cost of taking a risk, because condoms do remove quite a lot of the pleasure of sex.

But a woman ? She has nothing to gain, and everything to lose.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Seydlitz
[i] One thing I will never understand is why a woman would accept to have unprotected sex. For a man, I know, it is often very hard to resist the temptation of going bareback, at the cost of taking a risk, because condoms do remove quite a lot of the pleasure of sex.

But a woman ? She has nothing to gain, and everything to lose. [/i][/QUOTE]

Some women tell me that condoms are uncomfortable for them, give them rashes or burning, create increased friction, etc. Other women tell me they enjoy the jizz as part of the experience.

SOME, mind you, not all. Others have just said stuff like "I hate condoms" and don't really care to discuss it further.

Dickhead:

unless I am gravely mistaken (always a possibility), even the CDC does not see much risk in being on the receiving end of a BBBJ (unless your penis is in such a state of decay that your girlfriend would not blow you anyway ...

Well, that's not really what the CDC says. It does say the risk is smaller than for vaginal or anal (yuck!) sex. But we already knew that. So the question is how small is small and they don't quantify that and anyway I would question their data collection techniques if they did.

But I mean I got sucked by at least 50 women in the past year, with condoms, and what would be the risk if I did the same thing without condoms? So what we really need to know is whether the risk increases more per different partner or per total number of blow jobs. Is it riskier to get 5 BBBJs from 1 girl vs. 1 BBBJ from each of 5 girls?

Then the other issue is, if the risk is greater for the suckor than for the suckee, what is the morality of the suckee allowing the BBBJ knowing the greater risk to the suckor? Even a dickhead like me cares about that to some extent.

And this is not an academic question because I have a willing would-be suckor who 1) thinks AIDS will never happen to her because she is "clean," 2) has no idea that I have been with hundreds of hookers, 3) is really hot and gives great blow jobs, and 4) is one of the best friends I've ever had.

I guess maybe I should tell her that I've been with hundreds of women (no need to specify that a large majority were hookers) in recent years but have always used condoms, and then if she is still willing I will take the BBBJs.

Dickhead:

this is what the CDC says:
<Can I get HIV from performing oral sex?

Yes, it is possible for you to become infected with HIV through performing oral sex. There have been a few cases of HIV transmission from performing oral sex on a person infected with HIV. While no one knows exactly what the degree of risk is, evidence suggests that the risk is less than that of unprotected anal or vaginal sex.

Blood, semen, pre-seminal fluid, and vaginal fluid all may contain the virus. Cells in the mucous lining of the mouth may carry HIV into the lymph nodes or the bloodstream. The risk increases:
if you have cuts or sores around or in your mouth or throat;
if your partner ejaculates in your mouth; or
if your partner has another sexually transmitted disease (STD).
If you choose to have oral sex, and your partner is male, use a latex condom on the penis; or
if you or your partner is allergic to latex, plastic (polyurethane) condoms can be used.
Research has shown the effectiveness of latex condoms used on the penis to prevent the transmission of HIV. Condoms are not risk-free, but they greatly reduce your risk of becoming HIV-infected if your partner has the virus.

If you choose to have oral sex, and your partner is female, use a latex barrier (such as a dental dam or a cut-open condom that makes a square) between your mouth and the vagina. Plastic food wrap also can be used as a barrier. >

I gave you my interpretation of that, but it is better to quote chapter and verse.

About your personal situation, if you have a partner willing to give you BBBJ and that you know that yourself you are virus-free, I cannot see why you should get her into the confidence about those hundreds of other women. Just enjoy he situation. You are doing nothing wrong.

Now about your rhetorical questions, I would say that oral sex is a significantly lower risk activity than penetrative sex, no matter what. In sex there is no such thing as zero risk. If all those women were average general population women, I'd say that there would be little more risk involved in your having BBBJ than covered BJ.

Now, since you say that many of those were prostitutes, then there is a higher probability of trouble, due to potentially poorer hygiene, etc. Still the risk is very much lower than if you had condomless sex with them.

Even so, I believe that you should be fine receiving BBBJ. Giving it is another matter, and as you say, I do not quite see why a woman would want to do that.

Still, the best compromise between customer (or boyfriend) satisfaction and manageable risk might be BBBJ and protected penetration.

Yes, I have read the CDC site many times. I do agree your earlier paraphrasation was basically and roughly accurate although not as precise as quoting the actual site (which I read again right before my last post).

She won't fuck me regardless of condom or no and will only blow me. I've fucked her lots of times years ago but now she has a live in boyfriend and so she thinks it is being "less unfaithful" to him if she just blows me. Her words. Probably I could talk her into fucking me in the heat of the moment but she is much better at oral, primarily due to being a very poor kisser in my opinion.

I guess I should be concerned about passing something on to her boyfriend, but since I know he is being unfaithful to her with one of my other best friends (which my friend does not know and that's another issue), there's really nowhere to draw a line that I can see.

Only due to the increased awareness and knowledge I have gotten from this board am I even worrying about this. I mean, I've been having sex with her off and on for years, decades even, and she's never been monogamous and never used condoms and I've never gotten anything from her or given anything to her. And I've been going to hookers the whole time and using condoms the whole time so why I am driving myself nuts?

I guess it's because I don't think she has the same level of knowledge that I do (that's a polite way to put it and really I should say she has her head in the sand) and so if I am taking a risk it is an informed risk whereas she is taking an uninformed risk. That's why I was considering telling her about all the hookers. Plus I DON'T "know" that I am virus-free; I only know that I tested negative at the end of March and that I always use condoms with hookers and that I don't shoot up or engage in anal sex. There's an incubation period and no one claims that condoms are 100% effective in preventing AIDS, and I've been with hookers since my last test.

It seems to me that you are a very safe-sex minded person, and should be ok.

A balanced healthy lifestyle, rigorous personal hygiene plus safe sex practices should really put you in the lowest risk level.

After all, these nasty things we are afraid of are rather less virulent than the Ebola fever ! You can hardly catch an STD in a split second exposure of healthy skin or tissue. And even if you did, those are curable.

As for HIV, I do not know if it is current gospel, but at one point the good doctors at the CDC and others indicated that infection came for the repetition of exposure rather than any individual exposure (which incidentally, I have always found rather surprising if you believe in the viral theory).

And if your girl friend is uninformed, you might want to enlighten her on those issues, rather than mentioning the 100 prostitutes. But who am I to offer personal advice...

About your getting tested regularly, you might as well keep in mind the so many (100+?) instances of documented reasons for false positives. The good news is that even a positive does not necessarily mean death over the horizon, the bad news is that the test is so unreliable that even a negative might be wrong too...

Personally, I do not believe that "rigorous personal hygiene," whatever that involves, provides protection against AIDs or any other STD. I shower, brush and floss my teeth, and wear clean clothes. I wash my hands after I use the toilet. Is that "rigorous personal hygiene"? If so I have it and if not not. Sometimes I pick my nose if no one is looking.

I do believe that eating right and staying in shape might help you stay healthier longer if you did get AIDS. But that's not why I do it. I do it because I don't want to get fat and I want to be able to either run from anybody who tries to fuck with me or jack his jaw, whichever seems more prudent at the time.

And yeah, I'm hip to the possibility of false postive and false negative AIDS tests. My doctor offers AIDS testing for free (probably since she is queer as a four dollar bill) so I do it. Otherwise I probably wouldn't since it wouldn't really change anything. But the women seem to have a funny attitude about it, like the fact that I get tested means I'm LESS safe. That's pretty fucked up, I think. Like the last time I was in a steady relationship, after we both said we wanted to just see each other, I said, "Well, let's get HIV tests and if they're both negative we can stop using condoms." Her response was like "IF? What do you mean IF?" So I patiently explained that anyone who was sexually active with anyone other than a single partner who was a virgin at the time and then had no other sex partners ever ever ever ever had SOME risk.

This led to a huge argument, with her accusing me of accusing her of being a ****, so I told her to hit the road and I went to Amsterdam for a week. But that gets really expensive.

Seydlitz, I know you are not an American but do you see the shit we go through?

Dickhead,
Personally (for obvious, selfish reasons) I don't think the fact that you had sex with prostitutes has anything to do with anything. I'm not gonna start quoting stats again don't worry, but as you know there are certain places in the world (that you have been to) where the hookers are MUCH "cleaner" than the general population. I also think there needs to be a distinction between street hookers, brothel workers, etc...to say that "hookers" in general are a high risk factor is unfair, and untrue in a lot of cases. The fact is though, whether they are higher risk or not, you used condoms with those women. Therefore your risk of catching anything from them is extremely small. What you SHOULD be telling her is the amount of times you have had UNPROTECTED sex...regardless of who it was with.

As for not wanting to use condoms "saying something" about the women you are with...it sure as hell does in my books! When I was working and someone asked me for oral without a condom, I would always say "Don't you think that if I do it with you, that I usually do it with everyone??" That stopped them in their tracks. It's all too easy to think that we are "special", and that the woman likes us a little more than all the rest of the people that she sleeps with, but that is a really naive attitude to take. A woman who would compromise her health with you, is likely to do it with others.

Like someone pointed out, women have more to worry about than men do. If you think that she is not well educated on those matters, and that she doesn't have the information required to assess the risks, then I think you should be telling her. However, if she knows the risks and really doesn't care too much...I would be keeping my dick in my pants!!

Oh, by the way Dickhead...

Well said about the testing. Honestly, for a person who regularly has different partners (and doesn't use condoms) testing is moot. Your results are only as good as the exact moment that you had the tests done. If you go out and get laid straight after your doctors appointment, your status could be different before you even get your results back! And then there is the window periods...I may have JUST caught chlamydia the day before my appointment, but it won't show up until I'm tested next time. In the meantime I have infected heaps of others, believing I was "clean".

That is part of my argument against mandatory testing of sex workers (one of many reasons!!). Unless you are in a truly exclusive relationship, and you KNOW the other person is being monogamous as well, you are never risk free. When I have sex I always treat the other person as if they are infected. Either way, I can't enjoy sex if I'm laying there wondering if I'm going to catch something. I would rather use a condom (which I don't particularly like) and be able to relax.

Dickhead,

as you say, I am not an American, but I know what you have to put up with.

My own experience is that many american women are shallow, materialistic and somewhat paranoid about women rights etc.

All this makes them very unattractive as companions, although as a European, I have found that I am given a certain "margin" compared to American men. Many American women are willing to accept being told a number of things by a European man, that would make them jump at the throat of the American man who would be foolish enough to say them.

In a way, Europeans are exotic, the more so when they act in a way that contrasts with the US behavior. American women are outraged, but somewhat fascinated.

Still I do not remember ever having had sex with an American woman, because I do find them unattractive.

Ah, but the basic point of testing isn't to certify that someone is necessarily safe, but to identify someone's situation at the time of the test. We may [b]want[/b] to use these tests as some sort of STD litmus tool, but that's a social issue -- the underlying medical idea for such tests is to screen for those who are infected and be able to treat them.

That said, obviously an ongoing series of tests gives a better idea of overall status, even if activity renders the latest test less reliable than the previous ones. If your results for STDs come back negative after more than one test, then your status is that of clean or of recently infected, which means that a) you've probably caught nothing from past partners, or b) that your infection is in the early stages and thus, if identified, less likely to do substantial harm to your system if treated.

Also, here's a nice resource -- a literature review for things about prostitution and HIV/AIDS: [url]http://www.aidslaw.ca/Maincontent/issues/prostitution/e-info-oa1.htm[/url]

Oops Joe...after reading your post and then re-reading mine, I realised that I may have sounded like I was suggesting that testing was pointless.

I should really make the distinction...what I meant was that getting tested and then saying "I'm clean...let's not bother with the condoms" was kind of pointless, and a bit irresponsible.

Getting tested for your own health and wellbeing...as well as that of your regular partners...is still something I would definitely encourage. :)

And thank you for that link too. I have already read many of the documents listed on that site, and will make an effort to track down the ones that I have yet to see.