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Jonathan G
You're right.
I beg you pardon for a little mistaken, but let me revise something:
It is not legal sell sex for money (you could sell sex for vegetables, meat, soap,....anithing else but money). In fact a lot of people has some problem with Justice (?!) due to were catch them red-handed while they were paying prostitute with money and now they're charged for instigation to a prostitution.
.-.-.-.
I could agree with them if they really clean the streets, because many, many, many SW are quite naked also in the afternoon close to some garden where lot of children are playing.
This is not acceptable.
On more, could be that they f**k in a customer car few meters far and the children could see....
Naaaaaaaa.
...but it is only "propaganda".
.-.-.-.
Mr Prestigiacomo told something like that, but I heard also him add: "this could be a first step to recognize prostitution like a job and make them to able to pay taxes" On more, I believe that "Lega" Party is preparing some amendements to the law, to permit to any single city/town and so on, to create a "red light distirct" and avoid having a SW in the rest of the city.
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You declared that in Italy there are about 20.000 SW in Italy (takin in consideration only official figures).
If you count an average of 500 Euro per night per SW, and than you multiply this number for about 300 days per year (I don't take in consideration 65 days, because some days they could not to be at work for several reasons) you have about:
3.000.000.000 (3 billion) of Euro.
Only based on "Official numbers" and only for the SW.
Maybe some politician could have their hands sprinkled with flour?
They are not only "a market of 9 million of votes" but also a big circulation of money.
And where is so much money.....
.-.-.-.
Here we have yet the N.I.M.B.Y. syndrome (Not In My Back Yard): the most important point, is not to legalize, but get them far away from our eyes.
If you don't see a problem, it doesn't exist.
Ciao
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Jonathan G
[i]Sorry, I FULLY disagree with you, Lazzaro, and for very good reasons.
I've set up a web site just to explain to people that there are to date 4 (FOUR) researches by Italian sociology institutes and universities that affirm SLAVES ARE NO MORE THAN 20% of foreign streetwalkers in Italy.......
Jonathan [/i][/QUOTE]
You were lucky, because during my periodic visit to the SW in Milan (and around) what they told me were totally different.
Anyway, you could imagine that the foreigners SW could lie for fear?
Could be that Don Benzi make bigger than it is in reality the situation, but I was with several SW (from Nigeria, Albania, East Europe, Centre Africa, .....at least also a Greek girl) and all of them told me they have a pimp.....
But I refer to only a SW, not to a prost. who work in a flat
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[quote]originally posted by lazzaro
[i]it is not legal sell sex for money (you could sell sex for vegetables, meat, soap,....anithing else but money). in fact a lot of people has some problem with justice (?!) due to were catch them red-handed while they were paying prostitute with money and now they're charged for instigation to a prostitution.[/i][/quote]in italy is not illegal being a prostitute and is not illegal to have sex with a prostitute and pay the girl.
luckily, italy is not sweden (up till now) where is illegal to be a prostitute customer.
i never heard of a customer being charged for "instigation to a prostitution" just for having paid the girl: if this is true, it's an abuse, just like other strange ways we have in italy to "fight" prostitution (fining streetcar drivers, for example), but such abuses usually don't last for long.
remember when a judge confirep001ed the cars of some customers for "encouraging prostitution"?
well, after few weeks another higher judge ruled that was an illegal abuse and closed the issue.
[quote][i]i could agree with them if they really clean the streets, because many, many, many sw are quite naked also in the afternoon close to some garden where lot of children are playing.
this is not acceptable.
on more, could be that they f**k in a customer car few meters far and the children could see....
naaaaaaaa.
...but it is only "propaganda".
[/i][/quote]as far as i can see, the vast majority of sw are no more naked than television showgirls and even no more naked than "normal" girls walking on the streets.
and surely much less naked than any girl on any beach, near the children on the same beach.
however, there are perfect solutions to this "problem": eros centers, red light districts and prostitution "zoning".
but this is not the government solution
[quote][i]mr prestigiacomo told something like that, but i heard also him add: "this could be a first step to recognize prostitution like a job and make them to able to pay taxes"[/i][/quote]as far i remember, she said the opposite, saying "we don't want to legalize prostitution, that is the reason we can't tax prostitute and we can't force them to medical checks".
there are other politicians at the government that are thinking about taxing prostitutes (daniela santanchè of an party, for example), but there is nothing about that in the law proposal.
[quote][i]on more, i believe that "lega" party is preparing some amendements to the law, to permit to any single city/town and so on, to create a "red light distirct" and avoid having a sw in the rest of the city.[/i][/quote]i'd be very happy to see that, but i don't think it will become reality because the catholics at the government (and at the opposition too) disagree with that idea.
so we'll have "street cleaning" without red light districts or eros centers, that is: clandestinity , more danger for prostitutes and more criminal affairs.
moreover, the lega party says nothing (or say: no) about the more important thing for foreign prostitutes: stay permit for work as a prostitute in italy.
if the prostitutes can't have it they will be forced into clandestinity and will be at pimps mercy, hidden into flats.
[quote][i]maybe some politician could have their hands sprinkled with flour?
they are not only "a market of 9 million of votes" but also a big circulation of money.
and where is so much money.[/i][/quote]that is a very serious charge, i can't follow you in that.
please remember we have *hundreds* of politicians at the parliament: are they all in collusion with the "east mafia"?
[quote][i]here we have yet the n.i.m.b.y. syndrome (not in my back yard): the most important point, is not to legalize, but get them far away from our eyes.
if you don't see a problem, it doesn't exist.
ciao [/i][/quote]i agree with you about this. in fact, i'm in favour of full legalization of prostitution (between consenting adults, of course), after that we could think to move it indoor.
but, i repeat, i see no sign our government want to legalize it.
it just want "to get them far away from citizen eyes".
and with the big and unbelievable mistake of trying to put prostitutes into condominiums!
jonathan
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Lazzaro
[i]You were lucky, because during my periodic visit to the SW in Milan (and around) what they told me were totally different.
Anyway, you could imagine that the foreigners SW could lie for fear?[/i][/QUOTE]I answer in detail to such worn-out objections in my site, so I don't want to talk length on it here.
Here I answer to you with just another brief question: if every SW is a slave and lie for fear, how can Don Benzi know that they are all slave?
Just to prevent your probable objection, please remember: Don Benzi is just ONE amongst hundreds of "street operators" which help SW and is almost lonely in saying "they are all slaves".
Censis and Parsec institutes, for example, made interview with a hundred street operators and just about 10% of them agree with Don Benzi, the others disagree with him.
But the others usually are not interviewed by television.
[QUOTE][i]Could be that Don Benzi make bigger than it is in reality the situation, but I was with several SW (from Nigeria, Albania, East Europe, Centre Africa, .....at least also a Greek girl) and all of them told me they have a pimp.....
[/i][/QUOTE]Oh, please, this is a CRUCIAL point:
I'm not saying they have NO PIMP.
I know they usually have.
They are forced to rely on pimps to stay in Italy, because they can''t have long term stay permit (often they can't have touristic visa renewal too, especially after the Bossi-Fini law) and they can't easily rent a room or a flat in Italy.
Pimps get the flats for them and move them from city to city (both to avoid Police busts, usually not for slavery but for exploitation, and to change periodically "marketplace").
Last year there have been even on newspapers stories of FREE agreements between prostitutes and their pimps in Italy: board, lodging and transportation for 40% of their earnings given to pimps.
Obviously the girls would prefer not to rely on pimps, but nowadays in Italy this is almost impossible for a foreign SW.
But HAVING A PIMP DOESN'T MEANS THEY ARE FORCED TO PROSTITUTION, doesn't mean they are slaves.
They would be happy to continue doing prostitution, earning even more money, if they could do it without pimps "help".
We have "volounteer foreign prostitutes" in every other european country, why we had to believe to such a strange thing as "just in Italy they are all slaves"?
[QUOTE][i]But I refer to only a SW, not to a prost. who work in a flat [/i][/QUOTE]I see no clear cut distinction between SW and other kind of prostitutes in Italy, about the slavery issue. In many cases there are volounteer SW that work indoor, in a flat, but uses the street to contact the clients (or to perform just a quick BJ in customer's car ...).
Jonathan
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quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Jonathan G
In Italy IS NOT illegal being a prostitute and IS NOT illegal to have sex with a prostitute and pay the girl.
Luckily, Italy is not Sweden (up till now) where is illegal to be a prostitute customer.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Can someone please tell me what is legal and what is not. I am confused about the current law in Italy.
Is it legal for girls to walk the streets?
Is it legal to pickup a girl with your car? Will the police do anything if they see you pickup a prostitute?
To avoid the Polizia, is it better for me to walk the streets and take a girl behind a tree or is it safe enough to pick her up in a car and drive to a secluded area?
What will happen if the police catch you having sex with a girl? What should one do if this happens... bribery?
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by IT_Stallion
Can someone please tell me what is legal and what is not. I am confused about the current law in Italy.
Is it legal for girls to walk the streets?
Is it legal to pickup a girl with your car? Will the police do anything if they see you pickup a prostitute?
To avoid the Polizia, is it better for me to walk the streets and take a girl behind a tree or is it safe enough to pick her up in a car and drive to a secluded area?
What will happen if the police catch you having sex with a girl? What should one do if this happens... bribery? [/i][/QUOTE]
Unfortunately, in Italy if we speak about prostitution it doesn't import too much what is legal and what is not legal ....... police (or Carabinieri) are deciding themselves what they consider legal or not .......
It can happen that they know well the prostitute and chat with her in a friendly way, or that they want to bother her as much as possible:
it depends on what their "capitani" are deciding....
If they stop you and decide to proceed in some way against you, there is nothing to do: you will pass an awful 15 minutes up to a whole night as a host of the italian state (fermo per accertamenti) .....
If afterwards a judge decides that you were doing nothing wrong it doesn't import! They have the guns and power enough to bother you as long as they want!
Regarding the laws about prostitution it is still not clear what will happen in the next future:
Now it is legal having sex and pay for it , it is illegal to make profit from someone making sex for money (sfruttamento), it is illegal to favour prostitution (favoreggiamento) and it is illegal to ask/offer sex for money (addescamento). Hundreds of different interpretations were found to bother people who wanted simply to have some sex for money - that's it!
In addition, laws against illegal immigration (most sexworkers are illegal ...) are making the situation worse (and making the sex-mafia happy).
Some suggestions:
-avoid to pick-up girls directly with your car - stop your car on a parking place and walk to the prostitute - then return with her to the car.
-never have sex in the car - only in closed places: if police is getting you having sex in a "public place" then ..... buona notte!
-avoid to drive with your favourite near a police patrol .... this happened to me ..... they recognised the girl and tried to stop me for a check: I was behind them and the patrol went slower and slower ..... they wanted me to pass: well I used my knowledge of the streets in Milan (and of the girl ....) to get rid of the police patrol keeping another street! Another time they stopped me with the same girl .... checked my documents and the documents of the girl. Then they asked me if the girl was a friend of mine ..... unfortunately for them she is: the officier was astonished to hear from me the name and surname of the girl, the birthplace, the birthday and were she was currenly living ....
Italy is becoming worse and worse for us .....
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to jonathan g
i think ambroes is right.
the edge of what is legal and what it isn’t it is not so clear and some policeman see it in a way, someother policeman see it in another point of view.
bytheway, you say:
[blue]quote[/blue]: “if every sw is a slave and lie for fear, how can don benzi know that they are all slave?”
don’t you think that don benzi talk with them night after nigh after nigh after nigh after nigh after nigh….and in the end these poor girls begin to trust in him?
could be.
or couldn’t be.
imho for most of "street operators" is easier to say "they are all slaves", but it doesn’t mean necessarily that it is all true.
but also could be that it doesn’t mean necessarily that it is all false
i think most of them are slaves.
you think the opposite.
official number doesn’t exist, so you remain of your idea and i of mine.
;-)
just yesterday i saw a tv program where 3 prostitutes were interviewed and all 3 declared they choosen free this job.
[blue]quote[/blue]: “but having a pimp doesn't means they are forced to prostitution, doesn't mean they are slaves.”
always imho, i think that if they have a pimp, they’re slave.
doesn’t exist “bodyguard” for the prostitutes, and if they don’t catch enough money at the end of the night, they’re in trouble. ) i refer only to the slaved girls. the others are free and it is not so important to achieve a target “in money” every night)
it is about what you said: “they are forced to rely on pimps to stay in italy, because they can''t have long term stay permit (often they can't have touristic visa renewal too, especially after the bossi-fini law) and they can't easily rent a room or a flat in italy. pimps get the flats for them and move them from city to city (both to avoid police busts, usually not for slavery but for exploitation, and to change periodically "marketplace").”
when i talk about sw, i refer to all the prostitutes who work being picked up by car and have intercourse in the car,
there are, also, a lot of prostitutes who work in a flat and to meet them you have to read their anouncements on the newspapers (secondamano, corriere della sera – massaggiatrici, ecc.) and “ring” their bell
hope this is clear.
[blue]quote[/blue]: “in italy is not illegal being a prostitute and is not illegal to have sex with a prostitute and pay the girl.”
some times yes, sometimes no.
if you sell sex for money it is not illegal, but you could be charged for aiding and abettin prostitution (favoreggiamento)
[blue]quote[/blue]: “i never heard of a customer being charged for "instigation to a prostitution" just for having paid the girl”
despite for you, but in umbria (and in riccione/rimini too) several people were charged for it. they say: if you pick up (or pay) a sw, is like you want invite her to go on with this job.
i know, they’re crazy, and it is an abuse, but in the meanwhile you are in a police station.
that’s that
[blue]quote[/blue]: “remember when a judge confirep001ed the cars of some customers for "encouraging prostitution"? well, after few weeks another higher judge ruled that was an illegal abuse and closed the issue.”
of course, but in the meanwhile what’s about your life? and your wife/girlfriend? what does they say?
the judge doesn’t care if put you in a deep trouble
as ambroes said: they have the guns and power enough to bother you as long as they want
i know that the vast majority of sw are no more naked than television showgirls and even no more naked than "normal" girls walking on the streets, but their attitude is different! i don’t believe that all the “normal” girls walking on the streets when you approach them they pass their tongue on their lips, or invite you, or touch her pussy with their hands, or….: the attitude is differente, and “normal” girls don’t have bj or intercourse in a car close to the play garden.
and for the tv program, you could change the channel
on the beach the context is quite different, isn’t it?
i agree with you: there are perfect solutions to this "problem": eros centers, red light districts and prostitution "zoning".but this is not the government solution
[blue]quote[/blue]: “as far i remember, she said the opposite, saying "we don't want to legalize prostitution, that is the reason we can't tax prostitute and we can't force them to medical checks".
there are other politicians at the government that are thinking about taxing prostitutes (daniela santanchè of an party, for example), but there is nothing about that in the law proposal.”
i didn’t say it is in the proposal law, but only i’ve heard the minister say that
[blue]quote[/blue]: “please remember we have *hundreds* of politicians at the parliament: are they all in collusion with the "east mafia"?”
could be, i don’t know, but i think that if they only want, mafia (either eastern that italian) will be seriously defeated.
also me, like most of us, i'm favorable for full legalization of prostitution (between consenting adults, of course), after that we could think to move it indoor.
and it is true (sich!) we don’t see signs from our government want to legalize it.
it just want "to get them far away from citizen eyes". (true)
i think that we have used this form along as “private” chat, and i suggest to cut here.
your opinion is too clear, my opinion too.
ciao
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Hi guys,
From “La Stampa” (August 9th, 2003) the last news about the questionable law proposal against street prostitution. Next September the Italian Parliament will discuss the law. Franco Grillini (DS party) defines this law proposal simply “hypocritical”, while Gianfranco Pittelli (Forza Italia) wants to find a point of agreement between the two parts.
Thanks to this article from “La Stampa” I have known Eurispes had done a research about prostitution in the summer 2003. There are less streetwalkers than in the past and Internet seems to be the new resource for prostitutes and customers. If this law will pass and street prostitution will be prohibited, I hope government will guarantee the untouchable right of prostitutes to practise their work in single apartments without any subterfuge. In the contrary, if government will permit to condominiums to decide about the presence of prostitutes (this seem to be the intention of the Italian government) there is no other solution than the creation of a Red Light District under the control of the law. For now, we have only to wait until September…
Stay cool,
Mad Frax
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My fear is thet the new law + the old law "Legge Merlin" (most probably they will remain in force both, as a good italian "tradition") will make things impossible .....
One simple example: all internet sites located in Italy where pros were offering their service were closed by the police!!!!!!! if you connect you will find a nice message from the authority thelling what happened ....
All sites had to move at least to Switzerland ...... (.ch).
In addition I know from the girls that they have lots of trouble: police is checking their activity .... they wait for a customer and find two policemen checking their ID, their stay permit , etc.
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Mad Frax
[i]Hi guys,
Thanks to this article from “La Stampa” I have known Eurispes had done a research about prostitution in the summer 2003. There are less streetwalkers than in the past and Internet seems to be the new resource for prostitutes and customers. If this law will pass and street prostitution will be prohibited, I hope government will guarantee the untouchable right of prostitutes to practise their work in single apartments without any subterfuge. In the contrary, if government will permit to condominiums to decide about the presence of prostitutes (this seem to be the intention of the Italian government) there is no other solution than the creation of a Red Light District under the control of the law.
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to lazzaro
frankly, i don't think we have used this forum for a "private "talk, as long as we tried to support our views with objective info that are, i think, of general interest. so i just want to make clear a few points, giving some info, before closing my speech:
- don benzi is just one of many "street operators" that help prostitutes (every night, just like that bigot priest ...) and among them is almost alone in saying "they are all slaves" (censis research, year 2000, says that only 16,1% of operators affirm that "the vast majority are slaves"; censis interviewed about a hundred street operators).
- if you don't believe to four independent scientific researches that all agree with the fact that the slaves are no more than 10-20%, i'm happy i can say to you that "official numbers" ... does exists! ;-)
a few years ago the "commissione affari sociali" ("social affairs commission") of "camera dei deputati" (for non-italian readers: is one of the two branches of the italian parliament) ordered a research that gave these results: about 2000 slaves amongst 25.000 foreign prostitutes in italy, that is less than 10% of slaves ...
just one link that reports about it: http://web.vita.it/articolo/index.php3?newsid=24316
last time i've heard these figures was at the popular talk-show "porta a porta", but no one of the politicians that was present noticed that these figures totally deny and scredit don benzi assertions, they all went on with talking about slavery just as if don benzi were right.
well, italian politicians are strange people: they ordered a research, got the results and don't use these results when talking about new laws.
quite "funny", isn't it? :-(
- in my experience, for a lot of foreign prostitutes in italy the flat is just a second option to give to the customer: cheaper in the car, more expensive into the flat (usually the double).
so, i don't think there is any real difference between "street" or "flat" prostitutes from foreign countries, it's just the pimp choice to risk or not to rent a flat to get double tariff (a flat is a fixed reference point, for the police too ...).
btw, pimps existed since ... ever! much, much before these talks about slavery we have these years.
i don't like pimps but being a pimp, in itself, doesn't mean to enslave prostitutes. event with today's "east mafia" pimps.
happy to see we agree on the solution: eros center and "sex districts" to allow prostitution, with no need for pimps, with much greater police and health control and without disturbing people that don't like it.
but i'm afraid in italy it will remain a dream for many years to come.
ciao.
jonathan g
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Ambroes
[i]My fear is thet the new law + the old law "Legge Merlin" (most probably they will remain in force both, as a good italian "tradition") will make things impossible.
One simple example: all internet sites located in Italy where pros were offering their service were closed by the police!!!!!!! if you connect you will find a nice message from the authority thelling what happened ....
All sites had to move at least to Switzerland ...... (.ch).
[/i][/QUOTE]Moreover, some Italian politicians recently proposed to include into the new prostitution law the prohibition of newspapers ads!
In other words: someone is trying to fully "hide" prostitution in Italy even at the cost of making Police work much more difficult.
This will lead to clandestinity, more dangers for the prostitutes and a heaven for criminal pimps.
[QUOTE][i]
In addition I know from the girls that they have lots of trouble: police is checking their activity .... they wait for a customer and find two policemen checking their ID, their stay permit , etc.[/i][/QUOTE]Yes, there is an ongoing repressive action that is reaching absurd peaks: an italian friend of mine has a russian girl friend, absolutely NOT a prostitute (she is not very young, BTW); since the start of this anti-prostitution hysteria has became much more difficult for him to get a temporary touristic visa for her.
There is nothing wrong about him or her: italian authorities make obstruction and delay simply because she is a russian woman.
I'm not optimistic, too.
There are very few politicians in Italy that know that matter well and that don't think about it in an ideological way: Katia Belillo of PRC, Franco Grillini (DS), maybe Daniela Santanchè (AN) and a few others. And a lot of the rest still believe to Don Benzi.
One year ago I decided to build up a web site just to try to oppose this trend, in my own small way. In fact I think the only thing that could hold back politicians to release a bad and repressive law could be the opposition of these "nine millions of prostitutes customers", that are nine millions of votes, too. Unfortunately, one year later it seems to me that little or nothing has changed about clients apathy.
In the web site of "Comitato per i Diritti Civili delle Prostitute" (italian Committee for Prostitutes Civil Rights) is reported a press release of the "AnonimaClienti" organization ( http://www.luccioleonline.org/documentazione/prost.htm ).
Have you ever seen any other activity from that "AnonimaClienti" organization? I don't.
As far as I know, they never publicized their web site, supposing that they have one. And they never publicized how to join their mailing list!
Hey, I know we need "anonimity", I myself use a nickname, but "anonimity" doesn't mean "being invisible"!
I'm afraid italian clients will really wake up only when it will be too late.
Jonathan
[size=-2][u]EDITOR's NOTE[/u]: [blue]Posting of this report was delayed pending revisions to remove the multiple periods at the ends of sentences. To avoid future delays, please use just one period at the end of sentences in future reports. [i]Thanks![/i][/blue][/size]
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Girls are Alive and very well in Italy!
I have just returned from some recon and came away with the following:
Best new talent:
1. Eva @ Evaescort.net (spent 2 glorious days with her, check my comments in Florence)
2. http://64.191.212/annunci_top_class_escort.php I saw Sheryl who made the trip from Bologna for the night and I was not disappointed. Multiple sessions, massages, BBBJ, etc. Her comment when going to sleep was "wake me anytime when you want me!" Guess what, she meant it.
Another listing was Claudia who has incall in Florence, we talked, but I did not get the chance to visit.
3. Oasi2000.com, then click messagi, then girls(another site, but didn't have the chance)
Most of the girls I met would travel around Northern Italy and were extremely accommodating!
I'll be back just to see Eva again!
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Thanks!
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An update to my previous trip and report:
I just came back from another trip to Italy and have confirmed my findings about oasi2000 & top class. I met another 4 ladies and the reports can be found on the Florence and Rome Boards. I should also say that for some reason most of the girls didn't have their own supply of condoms, qui sa? Good thing I don't leave home without them!
www.Oasi2000.com seems to have many listings of ladies all over Italy who only do incall while others will make the visit. I've been limited to Florence and 1 night in Rome so far, but it is nice to finally make some connections.
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Does anyone have any advise on woman who have incall services that are clean and beautiful? I will be in Italy at the end of March. I will fly into Rome, and will be with my girlfriend. I want to do this on the sly without her knowing. Thats why I am planning ahead. She will go shopping while I do my thing quick. I think italian women are hot. Are there any brothels in Italy? What are the typical prices? I am new to this.
Please help.
