General Info

I confess I had never thought of the Naval War College as a primary source for "local" Philippine history.

Why did Filipinos love Americans inspite of these atrocities? Many reasons. Despite tacit racism and thinly veiled self-interests, the Americans did introduce universal primary education and government institutions like those back home. They did promise independence even as the commonwealth government was being instituted, and they followed through on the promise. The 39 or so years under the Americans probably stood in stark contrast to either the Spanish colonizers or the Japanese WWII occupation. A more cynical view, sometimes echoed by Ex-Pats in this forum, is that Filipinos are compliant and loyal people. There's a long history to this that far precedes the American incursion; it includes loyalty to harsh Spanish rulers and Catholic hegemony. Interestingly, the Philippine national martyr, Jose Rizal, believed Filipinos were not ready for self-rule in the late 19th Century, and thus distanced himself from the Katipunan and others (Bonifacio, Aguinaldo, etc.) who espoused violent rebellion. And despite American duplicity in dealings with Aguinaldo and others, many of the Philippine ilustrados (educated elites) actually believed the Americans' initial benevolent intentions. The armed engagement led by Aguinaldo and others against the Americans was hardly a universal sentiment.[/QUOTE]Skip Kost,

Thank you for your informed and cogent elaboration on the Philippine-American War. NWC was not a primary source of "local" Philippine history. The course title would be something like "The Evolution of Counter Insurgency Warfare in the 19th and 20th Century". We would be assigned a stack of books to read weekly prior to a round table discussion each Wednesday, followed by a paper due on Friday about some question posed by the facilitator / professor. The reading on the Philippine Insurrection was only a handout as I recall. Maybe 30 printed pages. The 1/9th Philippine casualty rate struck me as shocking as well as the rhetoric coming out of the mouth so US General Officer (to include MacArthur's Father, the initial campaign commander). I remember being struck by how none of us fairly well educated Navy and Marine Officers had anything beyond a skin deep knowledge of the conflict and associated war crimes.

Please kindly recommend a particular book on general Philippine history and on the Philippine Insurrection.

Thank you and regards.

[quote=mrhombre;1367310]thought it was the british who invented the concentration camp idea in the boer war? are you claiming this dubious distinction for the usa?[/quote]not sure the americans were the inventors.[/quote]no, the british army (and the british press) coined the phrase in english, published it in newspapers, added it to doctrinal publications, and scientifically applied it during the boer war. sadly, they didn't "scientifically" enforce sanitation standards nor had antibiotics been invented yet. hence, the horrendous casualties.

no, the concentration camp is not an american invention. unless, you count the enforced concentration and migration into indian reservations (earliest is the cherokee, i think in the 1830s).) the us army in the philippines-american war did not have nearly the "army" of correspondents to accurately report on the goings on. no phrase was used for doctrine as far as i can tell. forcing rep001tered villages in rebel stronghold in order to starve the enemy of food and aid was undertaken by operational orders. as above, sanitation standards were not enforced nor had antibiotics been invented yet. hence, the horrendous casualties.

the concentration camp is the strategic counterinsurgency invention of a prussian (read german) mercenary staff officer (i can't remember his name) serving as an adviser in the spanish army during the ten year war (1860-70s in cuba, i think). their name for the strategy included the term "concentration" in spanish.

so, the dubious title of the inventor and first user of concentration camps in counterinsurgency is the spanish.

regards

[quote=cunning stunt; 1367195]not another crying heart apologist for the japanese?"

where did i say anything in apology for the imperial japanese army. i don't follow how simply refuting erroneous statements ("no apologies","worst ever") leads to someone being an apologist.

"you are going to be a real useful member of the forum if this cherry post is a guide of what to expect in future. mind you, it makes a change from the usual stupid, endlessly repeated questions asked by noobs, which was probably posed and answered on the previous page or two, if they had only bothered to rtff. mind you, on reflection, i suspect that you are not a noob."

it depends on what you define to be a "noob." my first deployment of the pi was in 1991 to nas cubi point; i flew numerous times into clark air base for fuel and lbfm stop. i crossed "shit river bridge" (you don't know what that is, do you?) numerous times before mt pinatubo blew and us forces abandoned our bases there. i've been a "hobbiest" for the last 22 years during multiple deployments overseas during my military career although i have far more time mongering in thailand, korea (wide open in the early 1990s) , and colombia / peru. places us forces had a constant presence during the last 20 years.

"i had an uncle who was captured in singapore and later used as expendable slave labour on the death railway in burma. he was one of the lucky ones who survived the experience but it affected his physical and mental health for the rest of his life. he lived till the late eighties, long enough to see the japanese economic miracle. but he, like most fepows, was ever able to forgive the japs for what they did to his comrades and himself. he would never have anything made in japan in his house which was a bloody inconvenience for his wife and family."

i am sorry to hear about your uncle and his horror filled experiences. hatred no matter how justifiably earned must have been a terrible burden on him throughout his remaining years. it is unfortunate that he never took the steps to work his way toward some form of reconciliation no matter how minor. i suspect he never even made the smallest of attempts to understand his former enemy nor to meet anyone even associated loosely with japan. i don't really see where his "witnessing" the japanese economic miracle has much play in his burden. begrudging a competent, cultured, literate, and organized people their own success speaks more of a continued lifelong attempt to feed and nurture off his own hatred. again, a terrible burden.

"war is a nasty business but the japanese forces, in war, was a particularly brutal and unforgiving enemy."

true statement. not really sure where i denied such. i simply interjected a statistical and historical fact to shake up the paradigm. i suspect it has by the speed of your response. and the lack of response regarding the philippine-american war.

"even the nazis treated their pows better than they did."

this statement is only half true, half false. the germans in the second world war treated "western" pows quite well relatively; americans, british, canadians, free french. they did not treat their soviet pows "better". soviet pow survival rates were actually lower than fepow survival rates. they were used for slave labor, in medical and weapons experiments, starved to death, and simply shot when they outlived their usefulness. on a side note, german pows captured by the red army during the long retreat also had lower survival and repatriation rates than pows of the ija.

you seem to make a habit of calling people names: noob, apologist, jap. it comes off as a response of someone that actually has no response worth positing and has only vignettes to offer as proof. i think you would come off as much more cogent and mature if you stopped using nasty labels to describe people just looking for answers like the rest of us.

i responded to your concentration camp invention comment on a prior post.

regards.

[QUOTE=Wicked Roger; 1367501]Terminal 1 as this where most of us who arrive in the country enter through.

Am not sure T2 or T3 as when using the latter (as a Cebu Pacific passenger) I never need to get an extension[/QUOTE]WR,

OK thanks for the supplemental info.

[quote=bakabon23;1368334]not sure the americans were the inventors.[/quote]no, the british army (and the british press) coined the phrase in english, published it in newspapers, added it to doctrinal publications, and scientifically applied it during the boer war. sadly, they didn't "scientifically" enforce sanitation standards nor had antibiotics been invented yet. hence, the horrendous casualties.

no, the concentration camp is not an american invention. unless, you count the enforced concentration and migration into indian reservations (earliest is the cherokee, i think in the 1830s).) the us army in the philippines-american war did not have nearly the "army" of correspondents to accurately report on the goings on. no phrase was used for doctrine as far as i can tell. forcing rep001tered villages in rebel stronghold in order to starve the enemy of food and aid was undertaken by operational orders. as above, sanitation standards were not enforced nor had antibiotics been invented yet. hence, the horrendous casualties.

the concentration camp is the strategic counterinsurgency invention of a prussian (read german) mercenary staff officer (i can't remember his name) serving as an adviser in the spanish army during the ten year war (1860-70s in cuba, i think). their name for the strategy included the term "concentration" in spanish.

so, the dubious title of the inventor and first user of concentration camps in counterinsurgency is the spanish.

regards[/quote][url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/weyler[/url]

Traveling the PI in a bit and was worried about withdrawing from an ATM with my Chinese debit card.

Recently my capital one visa card expired and I got a new one issued back in the USA but unfortunately while traveling having had the time to get it from home. So I'm traveling with one of those debit cards for a credit union bank which despite repeated attempts still doesn't seem to work here.

Trying to figure out if anyone has any personal experience on this front even as I'm looking into online forums and asking tourist guides / whatever (I never trust just one source) : Does the China Union Pay work over there in the Philippines?

Note that it says so on many websites, but I'm wondering if anyone has any personal experiences or has seen their logo on the ATMs in the area.

Firstly, let me say that I thought you was another retired senior ex-US army officer who was active on the Thai forum a few years back and recently resurfaced and sent me a PM. It seems an odd coincidence that another member with an almost identical profile should appear but so be it. I guess that fact that you are unable to handle 'quotes' does tend to suggest that you are a new member here.

Apologies for calling you an apologist and a noob. Noob as you may be aware is a slang term for a new member. It can have derogatory connotations, but is also often used for descriptive purposes only, without a value judgment. So it wasn't meant as name calling or as a specific insult. I have always thought it odd that a Japanese person should object to being called a Jap. The British don't object to the term Brit or the Australians to Aussie so why the Japanese to Jap. Of course I know that the reason for this has its roots in the Second World War when everyone called them Japs in a derogatory manner. I would never dream of calling a present day Japanese person a Jap but when referring to their wartime military incarnation, I think it is acceptable.

With regards to my ridiculous statement about the Nazis, I should have engaged my brain before opening my mouth. Of course the Nazis were every bit as bad, if not worse in their treatment of prisoners. Although a signatory to the Geneva convention (which the Japanese were not) , as you said, they only applied its terms to western POWs and not to the much greater number of Slav prisoners who they considered sub-human and therefore expendable.

Regarding my uncle and the countless other FEPOWs who survived the war and were never able to fully able to fully put it behind them. I guess its hard to place yourself in the shoes of such a person and trite to expect them to pull themselves together and come to terms with the experience and forgive and forget. I know that my uncle suffered from vivid and disturbing nightmares right up to the time of his death so the cruelties and privations he endured were always kept fresh in his mind. He, as was the case for many FEPOWs, seldom talked about his experiences and being of a generation that kept a 'stiff, upper lip' they tried to get on with life as best as they were able. These days, we are far more aware of the damaging effects of PTSD and are better able to treat it.

I'll choose to ignore your dig in the last paragraph. I admit that my knowledge of the colonial and post-colonial history of the American Forces in The Philippines is sketchy at best and I will bow to your superior know-how. These days, with help of the internet and a wikapedia mentality, we have all become instant experts.

[quote=bakabon23; 1368356]

[quote=cunning stunt; 1367195]i am sorry to hear about your uncle and his horror filled experiences. hatred no matter how justifiably earned must have been a terrible burden on him throughout his remaining years. it is unfortunate that he never took the steps to work his way toward some form of reconciliation no matter how minor. i suspect he never even made the smallest of attempts to understand his former enemy nor to meet anyone even associated loosely with japan. i don't really see where his "witnessing" the japanese economic miracle has much play in his burden. begrudging a competent, cultured, literate, and organized people their own success speaks more of a continued lifelong attempt to feed and nurture off his own hatred. again, a terrible burden.[/quote]speaking absolute numbers in war crimes tells half the story, but often times the barbarity is what draws the conclusion. illustrated depictions of bayoneting infants, or stacking up prisoners to see how many a. 308 round will go through, beheading contests and the like did not help the japanese propagandizement efforts. nor did murdering thousands administering live biologic agents as unit 731 did in ne china. i think you mentioned "black holes" in american history books wrt to the pi-american war. how many copies of "the [url=http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord123][CodeWord123][/url] of nanking" do you think are issued for study at the national defense academy in yokosuka?

no, it's definitely not about just the numbers. even absolute efficacy of genocide, no matter how logical you or your cohort believe bringing up some guy from a thousand odd years ago. i mean really, genghis kahn? if you want to stay in the realm of recent history, perhaps mao tse tung or stalin would get the cup. i'm all for interpreting absolutism of genocide in proportions; maybe a better american example would be the native americans. not a wholesale killing genocide, but thoroughly extinguished an entire culture with a moderation of killing along the way. fits nicely in the black hole model too. twenty congressional medals of honor awarded at wounded knee for killing mostly women and children.

i know war is war, retired us army myself and a twin bro who flew hawkeyes off the forrestal and later the jfk before flying for american. maybe was tapping lbfms at subi same time you were. one of my uncles was in the 1st mardiv in the pacific who corrected me one time when i blasted that the "japs" deserved everything they got when we nuked them. this guy, my uncle, was completely phucked by what he went through said stonely "no, they didn't (deserve the bombing) , but it was the best thing we could do", explaining to his young nephew then how many us land casualties we would have invading japan.

ok, so it seems i'm really meandering here. but even suggesting that someone (who survived what was probably an incomprehensible pow / epw experience) would have been better off "reaching out" and and, what, loving his enemy or something? i get it, you think he might be better off being "rational". but that enface seems at least patronizing and perhaps just asinine. the japanese were arguably the most inhumane occupiers the world has seen. and you almost seem to suggest this guy might stand in judgment for a mild variation of anti-nipponism.

but then, we were talking about sex slaves. or, were we? prime minister shinzo abe has declared the "comfort women" were not enslaved, they were prostitutes. do you think this is a sign of a people sincerely interested in reparation? the japanese are truly great people. the west has had an impeccable alliance with them post wwii. but their behavior during wwii was in many respects a model for institutionalized evil, imho.

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[b][u]EDITOR'S NOTE[/u]:[/b] [blue]This report was edited or deleted in accordance with the Forum's policy prohibiting any discussion regarding [u]racial issues[/u]. This action is in no way a reflection of the merits of the author's comments.

I am aware that the vast majority of references to racial issues are legitimate attempts to advise other fellow members about local racial issues and prejudices. However, past discussions in the Forum has repeatedly demonstrated that the subject simply cannot be discussed intelligently, in any form or for any reason, without being misinterpreted and without starting flame wars.

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And yet the United States is built on the genocide of the native people, slavery of African people, exploitation of immigrant people and colonies like the Philippines. Oh, and they dropped atomic bombs.

The difference being that the people of Japan seem to have learned their lesson, rejecting en masse any attempts by the government there to rebuild an offensive military force, while the US has gone on to fight in some kind of military adventure at an average rate of one per year since the close of WW2.

And about those concentration camps: the NAZIs molded theirs on the techniques used by the US government to round up the Indians in the previous centuries. This fact is undeniable, since it's revealed in confidential inter-party communication discovered after the war.

I don't blame the people of the US same as they shouldn't blame anyone in Japan. Most know what they were told in told, books and through the media. Same goes for any other country. The biggest loser in any war is the average Joes and Janes who shed blood because some combination of military brass, politicians and board room scum decided their political-economic dispute needed to be resolved physically.

The only answer for those kinds of people, time tested and proven through history, is fraternization between soldiers of opposing camps (as seen in WWI, USSR/Hungary in 56, and some small extent Vietnam) and enlisted men turning their guns on the brass. The guy sending you out to get your face blown off is more of an enemy than some guy you've never so much as seen from the other side of the world.

[QUOTE=Ickywicky; 1368613]Traveling the PI in a bit and was worried about withdrawing from an ATM with my Chinese debit card.

Recently my capital one visa card expired and I got a new one issued back in the USA but unfortunately while traveling having had the time to get it from home. So I'm traveling with one of those debit cards for a credit union bank which despite repeated attempts still doesn't seem to work here.

Trying to figure out if anyone has any personal experience on this front even as I'm looking into online forums and asking tourist guides / whatever (I never trust just one source) : Does the China Union Pay work over there in the Philippines?

Note that it says so on many websites, but I'm wondering if anyone has any personal experiences or has seen their logo on the ATMs in the area.[/QUOTE]I should say that at least mine works.

I have used both a Bank of China and a China Merchants Bank ATM card in Manila. Most ATM's in the places I have been in the Phil's has the Union Pay logo.

One possible hiccup is whether or not your Chinese account was set up for international use. Since RMB is not an international currency, sometimes they want USD on depsosit in China to use for "exchange withdrawls", I haven't encountered this issue, but have friends that had some problems.

[QUOTE=Sky Ryder; 1368888]I should say that at least mine works.

I have used both a Bank of China and a China Merchants Bank ATM card in Manila. Most ATM's in the places I have been in the Phil's has the Union Pay logo.

One possible hiccup is whether or not your Chinese account was set up for international use. Since RMB is not an international currency, sometimes they want USD on depsosit in China to use for "exchange withdrawls", I haven't encountered this issue, but have friends that had some problems.[/QUOTE]Some good info posted by Sky Ryder. I will just add that [b]Bank of China[/b] And [b]China Bank[/b] Are two totally seperate banking institutions.

Bank of China is fully owned by the Chinese Government.

China Bank is a Philippines based bank controlled by Henry Sy and family.

Easy to get the two mixed up.

[QUOTE=Bakabon23;1368328]Please kindly recommend a particular book on general Philippine history and on the Philippine Insurrection.[/QUOTE]Warning: this is a detailed answer to questions about the Phil-Am War; if your primary interest is to find the shortest route to Pinay puki, don't waste your time with this. I would have moved the discussion to the history and politics thread but I'm too lazy to learn how to carry quotes from one thread to another.

I recommend two history books that I have read fairly extensively:

Stanley Karnow (1989). *In our image: America's empire in the Philippines* Ballantine Books. Karnow was a well-established journalist who covered Southeast Asia for many years, including during the Vietnam Conflict. This research was done initially to produce a Public Television series by the same name. The book is much more exhaustive and detailed than the TV series. This is a tome of more than 495 pages in small print. It was written for a 'popular' audience rather than academic historians. It's well organized (IMHO) and very readable. It is particularly detailed on the political backdrop to the Phil-Am war, especially on the American side. It does not present a battle-by-battle account of the war, but it recounts the history of the war from a litany of primary (soldiers' and leaders' communications and original documents) and secondary sources (earlier accounts from journalists and other historians). He does not spare the atrocious details from either side. His coverage of the war includes about 120 pages. I found a used copy through Amazon, and I presume copies are still available.

Renato Constantino (1975). *The Philippines: A past revisited* Self-published in Quezon City. This is a 'Filipino-centric' or 'nationalist' orientation that fills in details from the Philippine side. He argues that most histories of Spanish and American colonialism and the wars against Spain and the United States romanticize the colonial powers, as well as the Church, and under-estimate the extent and duration of Filipino resistance against the colonial powers. His presentation of events is similar to Karnow, but his interpretation of their meaning differs. This book covers from the pre-Spanish period until 1941. A second volume, entitled *The continuing past* covers the period from 1941 until 1965. You will not find these books on Amazon. Look for them in the larger National Book Store locations around Manila. Constantino fought in the WWII Battle of Bataan, escaped, and provided surveillance over the Japanese to pro-American guerillas during the occupation. He served in the Philippine delegation to the U. N. In the late 1940s and later in Philippine government. He taught on the faculties of several Manila area universities and wrote columns for numerous Manila newspapers. He was a leftist critic of Marcos and was placed on house arrest by the regime for several years and forbidden to leave the country. He died in 1999, but I believe his widow (Letizia) , who helped in writing the two historical books, is still alive. Their daughter, Karina, is married to Randy David, a retired UP professor and well-known columnist for the *Philippine Daily Inquirer*

Unfortunately, it is hard to find comprehensive histories that cover the period after the 1986 overthrow of Marcos. One that includes some of this period is Jose Arcilla's (1998) *An introduction to Philippines history* from Ateneo University Press. This is a little 140 page book that provides skimpy detail and definitely romanticizes the American influence and the contributions of the Church. Arcilla is a Jesuit and is or was on the history faculty at Ateneo. Available from outlets such as National Book Stores but not worth the expenditure if you care about details and 'objectivity. '

If you want to dig into greater detail on the Phil-Am war, Karnow provides extensive appendices about other sources. One source that both he and Constantino cite is a five-volume manuscript entitled *Philippine Insurgency* by Captain John R. M. Taylor. I believe these were prepared for United States Senate hearings in 1902 or 1903 as a review of war activities after reports of atrocities from Samar and Batangas showed up in the American press. I found one of the volumes online. It is a record of documents (including communications to and from the Filipino leader Emilio Aguinaldo) and interviews with various participants from the American side. It is a raw primary source, but not organized into a historical narrative.

FWIW, Arthur MacArthur was the third campaign commander, after Wesley Merritt and Elwell Otis.

Thank you Stroker and Ryder.

Which sounds like a pretty hilarious porn duo team name, or a great detectives CSI team.

[QUOTE=Ickywicky; 1369296]Thank you Stroker and Ryder.

Which sounds like a pretty hilarious porn duo team name, or a great detectives CSI team.[/QUOTE]LOL, I will go with the second one thank you very much. No crossing swords for me.

You are welcome.