Kyiv

"Just a part of the world of great contradictions out there."

Do I detect some vaxocentrism ? I knew syndicaiting the X-files would have an effect ; )

And who invented the Internet ?

One thing for sure, the women are hot in EE.
The Beatles did not make up a contradiction.

Long Live Romantic Tourism.

It's just an observation based on a wider objective point of view, nothing more.

Then, you can also ask:

Who has invaded the space first?

And who's gonna land on the moon first?

vega- wasn't trying slam you on the internet. if you visit most countries government agencies that address the area, they essentially claim to have done that.

mm-
i think i'd prefer to die for straw hair and buck teeth, if not in bed with it.

i must admit i do have a fancy for the newer high speed train service in russia and ukraine. just home the tracks hold up.

one thing is un-questioned: the ee has more efficient and affordable mass transit than anywhere else. despite money, technology and sometimes negative customer service.., their on-time performance and convenience is the best in the world.

Landing at a Ukrainian airport is quite an experience. They look really busy until you get closer and realise some planes have wings hanging off and have been pushed to the side. Favorite sight was the five bi-planes at Odessa which must have pre-dated the Great Patriotic War. I had a t-shirt on, as I thought I was going to a beach resort for a summer holiday, and the bus dropped us off by the gate and I couldn't believe I had to wait in the driving rain for my bags as they don't have an arrivals hall!

I thought Al Gore invented the internet

Vegamars,

While yes a lot of the old Boeings (727s) in the states are indeed very old (I think the last 727 was made in 1984), the thing that I hate about flying in the states is the smaller and older DC-9s around (rebranded as MD80s to make them sound more modern). Those things are almost prehistoric. American Airlines in particular has millions of these old 1960s and 1970s fossils. But they arent Boeings. But they are maintained.

Unless you are flying with a major airline in the CIS (Aeroflot, Sibir, Aerosvit etc) then you are taking chances to some degree. If you get in a Tu-134 of VolgaAeroExpress, or Air Bashkirtostan then you have to accept that its not going to be state of the art of safety.

Best bet is to just fly with the major airlines.

Lets let this one rest. The US has the youngest average commercial aviation fleet in the world. The years shortly before and after 911 was a record for new aircraft buys with US Airlines.

Americans won't fly old planes, much less prop planes, (prop planes are safer mechanically and aeronautical) which is why CRJ is now king. If you get a front seat, you can look directly up the attendant's skirt. Aeroflot and Aerosvit fly newer 777s and Brazilias (many planes designed by Boeing) respectively on international routes for that same reason.

A second reason is noise abatement, those old noisy TU aircraft would never be permitted in the US. Many airlines had to buy newer planes.

ATA has driven itself almost bankrupt buying new planes.

MD-80s are actually a very good plane, with thicker metal skin and less glue than Boeing. Thicker rivets. Now owned by Boeing. I don't like them cause they are too narrow body. This affords a poor view of a flight attendants legs from an aisle seat. I prefer a 737-ER, 747-400 or 777.

The few 727s flown in the US are mostly Federal Express and a few contract carriers. The rest are elsewhere or sitting in an Arizona boneyard.

The oldest fleet is owned by Northwest Airlines , who takes delivery of enough new planes in the next two years to place them closer to the middle of the big six.

Why do I know so much about this ? I used to be an aircraft overhaul mechanic for Lockheed. Fly over 100K a year and own part of an airline in Cambodia..., with a few 7 year old Boeings. I also have a travel agent credential.

The oldest Boeings fly in South America and Africa, while most of the worlds older Boeing aircraft fly airfreight.

I did fly on a L1011 on a charter about a week before it crashed in Germany, so I am partial to those metal patches all over the wings on those Tupolevs.

I can say I am more afraid of older Airbus aircraft, as the design has shown some engineering failures as early boeing and Tupelov designs have. But the TU aircraft have proven their metal.

Airbus is now the world leader and hope to fly a A380 super-Jumbo after their first year in the air.

The area of concern for Eastern European airlines isn't the aircraft, its the process...security screening, lack of permiter fencing, waist deep weeds, no background checks on key positions. and forested runways.., no doppler radar., aircrews who give tours of the cockpit in-flight.

EE is maybe behind in some areas, but it is getting better very rapidly. Overall, probably about where much of the west was in 2000 in most areas.

I have to say while I dont find the interior of the average Tu-154 overly appealing, I have no qualms about flying in them, especially if it is one of the major airlines. The Tu-134s on the other hand, give me the creeps.

But beansed, you cant seriously be saying the US commercial fleet is younger than the average Western European fleet, or Middle eastern fleet, or Singaporean fleet.

Singapore Airlines has the youngest fleet in the world, but based on country.., Japan and the US are very close. Europe is close, but Europe had Economic problems earlier with their airlines, which resulted in slower new aircraft acquisitions.

Most of the newer aircraft in Europe are Airbus, of which concerns have already been mentioned.

I don't like the A319 or 320 as much, but mostly because of the grunts and groans they make.

If we are going to put this to bed, we need to bed down the right info: Airline fleet average age:

Emirates: 3 years
Singapore: 5 years
Austrian Airlines: 5.4 years
Swiss: 5.6 years
Easyjet: 5.7 years
British Airways: 7.5 years
United: 8.8 years
AA: 10.5 years
Delta: 11.2 years
Northwest: 20.2 years

IATA fleet (global average) 14.4 years

African / South American Average: 16 years (and rising)
North American Average: 13 years (and rising)
European Average: 8.5 years (and falling)
Asian Average: 8 years (and falling)

Gentlemen, aerogeeks, others,

Any chance of information on bought sex in the Ukraine? Or must we now look for information about prostitutes on some plane spotters' site?

The average age of the fleet doesn't mean everything, although it's an important factor.

The brand-new Boeings or some others from Europe( remember the one from Switzerland for instance) don't reflect any kind of safety or reliability.

Especially for the severe weather conditions of the domestic flights throughout EE, the current airvehicles are preferred deliberately for safety conditions, though the technology is not that up-to-date.

Keep in mind that there's not always a one-to-one
correspondence between high technology and safety conditions.

For some discreet action, let's fly on to prosex.com.ua and

kievgirls.in.net.ua

changing subjects...
Guys - I will be bringing a small stereo in a moderate size box in for an amigo in Ukraine. If I bring it with me as luggage which would show it being a stereol and/or if I wrap it in inconspicuous brown paper do you think the customs bastards will give me heck at Kiev/KBP?

Or perhaps I should take it out of the box and pack it in my suitcase...?

Thoughts/experiences appreciated.

thanks!
Rendorseg

Rendo.
They always ask, "Are you bringing any gifts?" to get you to pay tariff.

If it didn't cost that much, then maybe they'll only ask you for a few $.

If you stash it in your suitcase and say no, you're right, they'll probably just
ignore it.

Ukrainians are always bringing in a bunch of stuff, don't know what
they get stuck paying, though I never saw anyone pay, just argue a lot.

Thanks Mangus
Now I know how to pack my suitcase which I gotta do today!
Ya, now I recall something about the 'gift' question... their rude 'show me your money' question always jars me.
Rendorseg