Safe Sex and Sex Related Discussions in Thailand

It is so sad that people are still ignorant to the risks of not using condoms.

Being a child of the 80s when AIDS first hit the headlines we grew up and entered out teenage years with the understanding that condoms were a necissity, much like don't drink and drive. They were just part of your life.

Now as a working girl they are part of mine daily.

I am lucky I have never known or had anyone close to me die of AIDS but part of that is New Zealand has remained relatively untouched. We are lucky.

For those of you that take risks with your own health and endanger other peoples lives purposely by not using condoms. It is about time the governments of the world began charging you with Murder. You are reckless and incredibly stupid.

I wait with a smirk on my face till the day one of you have to go home to your wives and children and tell them you had unprotected sex and now have AIDS, I wait smirking while your wife has to be tested only to find out you have passed it on to her. I wait while your children realise that their parents will die and leave them orphans, I wait while your grand children will never know the thrill of grand parents. I wait while your children face the stigma of having AIDS infected parents and being traumatised and ostrascized by their friends. I wait and smirk while your own friends and colleagues drift away from you. I wait and smirk while you sit there wondering which working girl it was who gave you this disease. I wait and smirk while you wish you had taken the necessary precautions.

I wait and wonder when you will learn.

Giotto,

I repeat my question and kindly ask you to answer it :
Who poses a higher risk, a young bar girl or an older gogo girl ?

You told us in your risk assessment that
an older women poses a higher risk than a younger one
a freelancer does pose a higher risk than a bargirl
a bargirl poses a higher risk than a gogo girl.

I don't know what your "decision matrix" will tell you if you mix any of your mentioned attributes (e.g. age, workplace etc.).

I also wonder what your "decision matrix" will tell you about gogo girls who also do work as freelancers. Since you met those girls in a gogo and do not know anything about their freelancing activities, do they still fall into the "gogo girl" or in the "freelance" category ?

So should we put all girls into the "freelance" category because any girl could possibly also do freelance without telling us ?

I am a bit confused and still don't fully understand how your "workplace rule" works.
Please answer to explain it to me and clarify the current situation.
But if you prefer to avoid a straight answer to a straight question we all do know the reason for it. :)

[QUOTE=Jeff46]The lastest one was my best body and friend since 1992 QUOTE] Then there is the substantial gay element to be factored into the decision matrix. What if the older street lady can only fuck cheap Charlie but the young go go girl does threesomes and more somes with ladyboys and Boyztown hookers.

The fact is Giotto's decision matrix is one of the most irresponsible pieces of crap on this entire site. Now that Giotto is on the defensive, he has to wheel out personal anecdotes about Singapore in 1998. Whatever happened to all those learned books he read on the subject?

The contribution of Giotto and Phoenix Dave on this issue both constitute a grave threat to your health. Giotto's seems to display a lack of basic knoweldge of the industry as well. The same lady can be a bar girl, a go go dancer and a freelancer in a very short time. Notoriously, go go girls have to fuck all comers and some ladies vote with their feet by walking the streets where they have more control. Giotto's advice is so bad it should be ignored if it were not so dangerous.

Obepo has come in for some stick. But his reports are useful in that they show how prevalent barebacking is and, as a consequence, how useless Giotto's advice is.

Giotto,

your attempt to move it to PM failed, not only because your PM box is full so I can't answer that way, but mostly because you still avoid a clear answer to a very simple question.

Your refusal to answer is nothing but a confession that your "risk assessment" (and of course your "decision matrix") is complete crap as Martian called it.
Why not enlighten us by telling us what your decision matrix tells you in such a case ?

Don't forget, refusing to answer is also an answer and we all know your reason why.

[QUOTE=The Traveler]
I also wonder what your "decision matrix" will tell you about gogo girls who also do work as freelancers. Since you met those girls in a gogo and do not know anything about their freelancing activities, do they still fall into the "gogo girl" or in the "freelance" category ?

So should we put all girls into the "freelance" category because any girl could possibly also do freelance without telling us ?

[/QUOTE]

Hmmm,
my decision Matrix (not Giotto's) is simply that it is added risk if a gogo girl is additionally going as a freelancer. Still in the average (which means that there is no evidence and if you are unlucky your %tage case is just the opposite of average), the GoGo girl with additional freelance activities may still be lower risk then the 'only' freelancer, as the GoGo's In average get more duty health check then the average freelancer.

But again, as it is statistics you can never be sure if your single case is part of the average, as well as you can't tell if your next plane home isn't just the one that is brought down by the next terrorist attack. But I agree that the Risk having a GoGo girl Aids Infected is signifficantly higher then that your plane is shot down. But not 0 as The Traveler will argue the same as me.

Again, risk as essment is risk asessment and the ramaining risk is never 0.

My 2 Freelancers from beergarden have been Condom insisters and asked if I had condom much before we arrived in the room, in fact before we closed the deal. Also this Risk was not 0, but considered lower then probably the average Freelancer. But who knows. I took the risk according to my own calibrated decision matrix as every monger does with each single session he does - including The Traveler.

regards

Brain666

PS: Some people ignore how statistics works. Risk simply never 0. I am living in South Korea now. So my risk of getting hit by an Atomic Bomb from the north is probably higher then for every monger in Thailand. However I consider that the statistical risk for the Japenese is even higher.
.... And so on and so on ....

[QUOTE=The Traveler]
Don't forget, refusing to answer is also an answer ....[/QUOTE]

TT: congratulations on hitting the 2,550 post mark. I'm trying ... don't think will ever catch up :D

"I repeat my question and kindly ask you to answer it :
Who poses a higher risk, a young bar girl or an older gogo girl ?"

Traveller, here is my own decision matrix:

"If it spreads its legs and fucks for money, it is not safe. Bar Girl or Gogo Girl; no difference."

[QUOTE=Merlin Magician]"I repeat my question and kindly ask you to answer it :
Who poses a higher risk, a young bar girl or an older gogo girl ?"

Traveller, here is my own decision matrix:

"If it spreads its legs and fucks for money, it is not safe. Bar Girl or Gogo Girl; no difference."[/QUOTE]

Probably Giotto is asked here,

but my decision matrix is, that I would probably never consider an older GoGo girl anyhow, when there are so much junger GoGo girls to choose from. So the young Bargirl would be the choice not reflecting other factors in the decision matrix which could prevent me from.

Again: Its a decision Matrix with many factors. So picking a special case and reducing to 2 decisions isn't really a matrix. So the example isn't what happens in reality when we choose our favourite girl.


regards

Brain666

[QUOTE=Merlin Magician]"I repeat my question and kindly ask you to answer it :
Who poses a higher risk, a young bar girl or an older gogo girl ?"

Traveller, here is my own decision matrix:

"If it spreads its legs and fucks for money, it is not safe. Bar Girl or Gogo Girl; no difference."[/QUOTE]

I don't think it matters given the consequences. Even if it fucks for free. Condoms are what, 10 baht? How much is a lifetime of AIDS treatments?

[QUOTE=Giotto]Some basic statements reg. the questions:

In general the HIV virus is NOT EASY to transfer, it is a huge virus/DNS structure. Other viruses are much more infectious (eg. Hepatitis). For that there are SOME medical scientists who are stating that even unbroken mucous membrane is a sufficient barrier against the virus and does NOT ALLOW an infection, IF the partners are not infected with other STDs(!!).

Nevertheless: There are definitely many cases in which the infection happened in ONE SINGLE UNPROTECTED SEXUAL ACT.

Rule: The mucous membrane MUST BE PROTECTED during intercourse, and that can only be done with a condom (if you want to have intercourse).

A condom secures, if used correctly and if it does not break, a protection of close to 100 %.

[b]Oral sex:[/b]

Generally the risk is minimal, for the receiving person (that is you if you receive a BBBJ) close to zero. The only remaining risk here comes from the possibility that the giving person has blood in his mouth (wounds from toothrush etc. ).

[URL]http://www.sfaf.org/aids101/sexual.html#oral[/URL]

Remaining risk factors are:

- holes / microscopic cuts in the condom
- cuts / wounds in the penis root area
- cuts / wounds at other areas of the normal skin which come into contact with body fluids.
- and others (a long list).

All this remaining risks are so extremely small, that everybody must evaluate for himself whether it is possible and useful to implement measures for a protection against those cases. Those risks are statistically not measurable.

[b][u]Final Statement:[/u] The biggest risk factor are we ourselves, getting carried away during the sexual act and forgetting to use the condom. And afterwards, if the worst case scenario has happened, most of us will definitely NOT tell the truth and insist on the fact, that we always used a condom. Most of us will lie![/b]
Giotto[/QUOTE]
Giotto,

Thanks for cold clinical scientific data with risk probability assessment.
I get so sick of those who either wish to remain blissfully ignorant or the opposites who have wildly emotional reactions to some so called 'risks' not based on any science whatsoever.

Life is risky, its just about keeping the risks to sensible controlled levels and still enjoying life.

Micky like Licky

[QUOTE=Traveler1234]TT: congratulations on hitting the 2,550 post mark. I'm trying ... don't think will ever catch up :D[/QUOTE]
T1234,

thanks but I didn't even recognized it. I never look at the post counters.
Why should I, it has absolutely no significance.

[QUOTE=Brain666]Probably Giotto is asked here,

but my decision matrix is, that I would probably never consider an older GoGo girl anyhow, when there are so much junger GoGo girls to choose from. So the young Bargirl would be the choice not reflecting other factors in the decision matrix which could prevent me from.

Again: Its a decision Matrix with many factors. So picking a special case and reducing to 2 decisions isn't really a matrix. So the example isn't what happens in reality when we choose our favourite girl.


regards

Brain666[/QUOTE]
Brain666,

you somehow constantly miss the point.

Giotto made several statements and presented guidelines, saying that risk depends on age, workplace and a couple of other things.

This is quite shallow IMO. The whole thing is far too complex to be reduced to a couple of factors as we don't know anything about the providers. You should know very well that I restricted it to only 2 factors to keep it simple. I gave a couple of explanations why a younger girl could pose a higher risk than an older one opposite to Giotto's risk assessment. I also provided a few examples/reasons why a gogo girl can pose a much higher risk than a bar girl even though Giotto tries to tell us that gogo girls are less risky than bar girls.

In short, we have absolutely no way to tell how risky an unknown sex partner is. Therefore we should treat them all the same.

Guess why Giotto still refuses to answer my simple question ?
If his risk assessment already fails on the combination of 2 of his factors, how good will it work in real life ?

So far your objections/remarks only targeted our decision to pick a girl or not which is pointless, as this isn't subject of the discussion.

Giotto's advice points into a complete different direction. He told us, that he will be more or less careful or better careless depending on his assumptions about a person. He calls those assumptions "decision matrix" but they are nothing but assumptions as he doesn't know anything about the girls in question, especially nothing about their health status, preferred sexual practices and partners and so on. Therefore his risk assessment is completely use- and worthless.

If you decide to have sex with an unknown partner be as careful as possible, don't differentiate and don't believe that one may be more or less risky. Don't lie to yourself !

[QUOTE=The Traveler]Brain666,

you somehow constantly miss the point....................................
[/QUOTE]

Traveler, could you please take this to the Fight Club thread. It's between you and Giotto. I am sorry, but we all seem to miss the finer points of your argument about Giotto's staement. So take it to the Fight Club and thrash it out there.

[QUOTE=Duniawala]we all seem to miss the finer points of your argument about Giotto's staement. So take it to the Fight Club [/QUOTE]

I don't, and I know that others don't.

The Fight club is about having fun and letting off steam. The Traveler is trying to have a serious discussion about safe sex in Thailand in the Safe Sex in Thailand thread. If you want to take the [url=http://isgprohibitedwords.info?CodeWord=CodeWord140][CodeWord140][/url] out of The Traveler, do so in the Fight Club or those threads dedicated to Giotto and his clients.

Ontopic,

Am I to assume that a woman fresh and new to the prostitution scene in a farang-oriented tourist sector of Thailand has never worked in the (predominantly bareback) Thai-oriented prostitution scene in her home region? What indicators/guidelines should I use to decide how safe my sex should be with such women?

I think discussion of what activities are risky or not so risky is far more worthwhile than debating whether one girl is more risky than another.
If the right precautions are taken the girl's background history becomes an insignificant factor which is just as well since we will never know what the background is for a new aquantaince.
Any normal girl is a high risk if she has ever had unprotected sex in the few months before her last blood test (or anytime after) if she had one.
Now all of that is really unknown, ain't it.

Am I feeling lucky today, punk? (Sorry Clint)
Better to protect all risky activities. I don't beleive in luck.
Shit happens all the time.