Forced? Really? By who, exactly?
[QUOTE=DramaFree11;2703621]So true, they should be forced to negotiate and compromise. Instead of sending weapons, we should say enough is enough. Find a solution and end this crazy war.[/QUOTE]Russia is the aggressor and, in case you haven't noticed, there's no country that's currently able to force Russia to do anything. And any attempt at the direct application of force runs the risk of provoking the use of nukes.
So what does that leave as a realistic option? Going through the United Nations is worthless, as Russia (aided by China) is able to veto any attempt to problem solve by that toothless organization.
What else? Well, maybe the application of sanctions and other pressures by Europe, the US, and other nations. That's not force, per se, but rather an attempt to convince Russia that the present and future costs they'll incur will outweigh any benefits.
That's the only realistic path I can see, and that's what's currently being tried (as Ukraine defends itself in a struggle for survival). If you have a better solution, with a realistic chance of making a difference, please feel free to share.
BTW, if anyone thinks that peace is to be gained by forcing Ukraine only, while letting Russia do whatever it wants, I would refer them to VinDici's earlier post. Asking Ukraine to commit national suicide is a non-starter.
It takes Two to Tango, and the negotiation music hasn't started.
[QUOTE=WyattEarp;2703628]I understand your points. I generally agree with the recent posts that you don't want to prolong this war unnecessarily. There's a tendency for us armchair generals to look at a conventional war and think we can master a victory. Beyond the carnage and destruction, it ignores all the political chaos that ensues.
It's a bit audacious to presume the Ukraine itself will emerge a healthy, functioning democracy. I'm still not sure what would happen if Putin was deposed. There are no guarantees in what follows.
However, I do not agree the United States' role is that of peace negotiator. That is probably best left to Turkey or some other nation that doesn't represent a threat to either side. Perhaps China or even India has missed their opportunity to gain respect on the world stage.[/QUOTE]Every nation other than Russia and Ukraine is at best tangential, and at worst irrelevant.
As I see it, Ukraine's requirements for any kind of cease-fire (or more) would be, at a minimum, Russia's withdrawal to pre-invasion boundaries. I see no indication that's even close to being acceptable to Russia.
Russia apparently believes it can hold out against sanctions and attrition of military resources long enough to seize all of Luhansk, Donetsk, and a land corridor to Crimea. And, from other sources I've recently read, some in Russia believe they can reconstitute their forces enough to make another push at Kyiv.
While Ukraine's thinking, as I understand it, is that they can bend without breaking and, with Western support, continue to grind down Russia's ability to effectively wage war. And, on that front, there are things happening to encourage Ukraine. Putin has failed to call for national mobilization, perhaps fearing backlash or widespread disobedience or avoidance, and Russia has eliminated the upper age limit for military service. Those, and similar developments, indicate that Putin is having a hard time finding soldiers. And any who are recruited today will need to be trained for at least several months before achieving even minimal fighting proficiency.
So, that's a longish way of saying that neither side is anywhere close to believing they need to negotiate. When one side, or both, is sufficiently beaten up, then who the negotiator is, while important, won't be the primary issue.
Also, if I'm Ukrainian and someone tries to raise the issue of whether my country will be a healthy democracy after the war, I think I'd punch them in the mouth. That's because, in Maslow hierarchy-speak, I'm at the bottom of the pyramid, just trying to survive. Self-actualization as a democracy is a great goal, but that's a topic for another day.
I agree that there are a lot of geopolitical chips up in the air, and who knows where they'll fall. But, first things first, please help me and my family keep from being killed.
P.S. It's also important to factor in that the landscape with respect to sanctions and the battlefield is constantly changing. See my recent post about Ukraine acquiring MLRS systems from the US, and why that may have a significant impact. And the latest round of sanctions now includes Sberbank, which is the heavyweight of Russian banks. So, in boxing terms, past banking sanctions were like stiff jabs (painful but moderate damage), while this one is like a heavy body-blow with the potential for major damage.
Meanwhile, shit is stirring in Russian-occupied territory.
[URL]https://www.19fortyfive.com/2022/05/putins-nightmare-a-ukrainian-guerrilla-movement-has-emerged/[/URL]
Attacks of a guerrilla or resistance nature will make any occupation a dicey and dangerous affair. And, to the extent that military resources important to Russia are destroyed (ammo, fuel, railroads, etc.), that will have a direct effect on the battlefield. And even just keeping extra Russian troops tied to garrison duty is a positive for Ukraine.
Why can't USA stop a war?
The only country in the world who has fought wars since WWII is US. I don't have to mention where all they have waged war in the world, in the name of democracy, and how those countries are now.
If we see the histroy after WWII, we will know, there is always an understanding between these powers (US and Russia)! Even there are against each other. Irony!!
So in short, if US can start a war, they can stop a war too!!
Ukrainian president was supper confident of the support he is going to get from the west (especially US), check his speaches before the war.
Now he talks, west needs to do more! That is when we need to think! What went wrong!!
Remember, war brings money / economic growth!! In the expense of people of a country. In this case, its the Arms manufacture of US, with the money fo tax payers!!
When the congress passes a multibillion aid! For arm supply, its taxpayer money paid to the Arms manufacturs!
Check the share prices of US arms manufactures in last 3 months!!
Its important to stop the war, to save the people!! But who cares of the people!!
[QUOTE=Jmsuttr;2703685]I'm sure there are plenty of ways to look at the situation, including views from 10,000 feet that focus on which players (countries and companies) might benefit from, or be taking advantage of, the conflict.
But it's hard for me to concern myself with such issues while Ukrainians are being killed, captured, tortured, and their cities reduced to uninhabitable rubble.
When confronted with that in-your-face reality, there are only a very few questions at the top level of priority:
Q: Who bears primary responsibility for the conflict?
A: Russia.
Q: Who is the only party with the ability to unilaterally bring an end to the conflict?
A: Russia.
Q: How can the conflict be stopped?[/QUOTE]
Asked and answered. Did you bother to read a few posts down the page?
[QUOTE=Mike963;2704120]The only country in the world who has fought wars since WWII is US. I don't have to mention where all they have waged war in the world, in the name of democracy, and how those countries are now.
If we see the histroy after WWII, we will know, there is always an understanding between these powers (US and Russia)! Even there are against each other. Irony!!
So in short, if US can start a war, they can stop a war too!!
Ukrainian president was supper confident of the support he is going to get from the west (especially US), check his speaches before the war.[/QUOTE][URL]http://www.internationalsexguide.nl/forum/showthread.php?4028-Stupid-Shit-in-Kyiv&p=2703784&viewfull=1#post2703784[/URL]
If Russia doesn't want to stop fighting the war, the only way the US could make them stop would require the use of force by the US military, or NATO, or both.
That would a) Play into Putin's hands by allowing him to frame the conflict as existential, with Russia's nationhood at stake, and; b) Exponentially raise the risk that nuclear weapons could be used.
Also, you're mistaken as to a fundamental fact. Putin made the decision to invade Ukraine, not the US and not American arms manufacturers. It was Putin, and he alone, who started the war. And, since he started it, the war will continue until Putin, or his successor, gives the order to stop.
Any questions?
Problem with your analogy: Russia is a murderer, not merely a robber.
[QUOTE=Kozerog;2704342]From some news source: "Of course we want peace, but we also want our territories back," said Anna Ockmanko, 57, whose house in a small village outside of Kharkiv was destroyed when Russian forces invaded. "If not, then what are we suffering for?
Sad truth is that Ukrainians are suffering as punishment for their stupidity. Stupidity is not always punished in this world, but it usually is, and the punishment is typically severe, because that's the only way to get stupid people to learn. Same as teaching a stupid animal: since stupid animals can't / won't learn by logical reasoning, they have to be beaten silly with a stick until pain finally sinks in and forces them to learn.
Not the first to use following metaphor, but worth repeating over and over. If a robber points a gun at your stomach and says "give me all the money in your wallet", then you are very stupid not to comply, because certainly your life is with more than any amount of money. Yes, complying is cowardly surrender. And? Go back and read this metaphor over and over until you understand, because the alternative is what happens in the preceding paragraph: if you can't learn by reason, including via metaphors, then you will be probably be beaten silly with a stick, so to speak, to force you to learn.[/QUOTE]From the Ukrainian perspective, they're fighting for their very lives. It's irrelevant whether you, or anyone else, agrees with that assessment. That's how Ukrainians view the situation and that's why their response is what it is. Using your robber scenario, if you believe (or are sure) that the robber intends to kill you, then you'll resist in any way possible and with all your might. The truly stupid reaction would be to do anything else.
So, to anyone sitting in their comfy chair, observing from a safe distance and opining that Ukraine should be doing this or that, I'm guessing a clear and loud "go fuck yourself" would be the likely Ukrainian response.
