Stupid Shit in Kyiv

I didn't mention Russia, as its mentioned all over here.

[QUOTE=Jmsuttr;2703685]I'm sure there are plenty of ways to look at the situation, including views from 10,000 feet that focus on which players (countries and companies) might benefit from, or be taking advantage of, the conflict.

But it's hard for me to concern myself with such issues while Ukrainians are being killed, captured, tortured, and their cities reduced to uninhabitable rubble.

When confronted with that in-your-face reality, there are only a very few questions at the top level of priority:

Q: Who bears primary responsibility for the conflict?

A: Russia.

Q: Who is the only party with the ability to unilaterally bring an end to the conflict?

A: Russia.

Q: How can the conflict be stopped?

A: By Russia deciding to stop, either by their own independent decision, or as a response to external and (or) internal pressures.

While other questions and issues may be valid and worth exploring, they must necessarily take a back seat to the primary issues listed above. I'm certainly open to debating which countries might secretly, or not so secretly, be hoping for Ukraine to fail (Serbia, Hungary, Germany, etc.), or which countries are giving Ukraine their full support (Poland, Baltics, etc.), or which countries (USA, France, Italy, etc.) might be slow-walking assistance because they see upsides to a protracted conflict.

I have no illusions about the fact that there are plenty of bad actors who could, and should, be named and shamed. But Job #1 is ending the war, full stop. And that will only happen if Russia has a change of mind (unlikely), or if a combination of battlefield defeats, attrition, and pressures from within and without, cause them to have that change of mind.[/QUOTE]

US fought more wars than any other country after WWII, I guess that is a fact.

The fact is I am not worried about who is at war, but the common people is who will suffer in the end.

Lot of us will debate on the ideologies.

[QUOTE=Paulie97;2704172]All you've done is ignore all of Jmsuttr's points and concerns while repeating the same assertions all over again, but this time tacking on double exclamation marks at the end of each sentence. And you earn a demerit by adding the ludicrous claim that the US has been the only country involved in war since WW II. We should expect better, even in a hooker forum. Why don't you go back and try again? Wink.[/QUOTE]

If you read my first post, probably you would have got the point.

I am not bothered about who started the war or who is fighting.

War is bad for sure, and its extremely worse for the common people.

Now it comes to the question of NATO, Why didn't NATO support Ukraine directly, and we could have hoped optimisticaly, that would have stopped the war? Or by now reached a negotiation?

Then we might say, Ukraine is not a NATO member? Kuwait, Vietnam, S Korea to name a few none of them where. In reality if NATO wants to help, they can!

That is the point, there is business in war, more than saving people and ending war.

[QUOTE=Jmsuttr;2704179][URL]http://www.internationalsexguide.nl/forum/showthread.php?4028-Stupid-Shit-in-Kyiv&p=2703784&viewfull=1#post2703784[/URL]

If Russia doesn't want to stop fighting the war, the only way the US could make them stop would require the use of force by the US military, or NATO, or both.

That would a) Play into Putin's hands by allowing him to frame the conflict as existential, with Russia's nationhood at stake, and; b) Exponentially raise the risk that nuclear weapons could be used.

Also, you're mistaken as to a fundamental fact. Putin made the decision to invade Ukraine, not the US and not American arms manufacturers. It was Putin, and he alone, who started the war. And, since he started it, the war will continue until Putin, or his successor, gives the order to stop.

Any questions?[/QUOTE]

Who wants war, and we can safely say Russia started, true.

But no one is trying to stop it.

[QUOTE=Xpartan;2704185]I wonder what can possibly possess a grown-up to say something so monumentally stupid.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=Mike963;2705674]Who wants war, and we can safely say Russia started, true.

But no one is trying to stop it.[/QUOTE]Exactly, it makes no sense. We have created a monster in the Ukraine President. The CIA is promising him the world, mean while, economies are tanking. Great job Biden!!

[QUOTE=Mike963;2705674]Who wants war, and we can safely say Russia started, true.

But no one is trying to stop it.[/QUOTE]And, in response, Russia would destroy half the world, and NATO would proceed to destroy the other half.

There, no more war, we've solved it, right?

You sound like a child whining at their parents to make the thunder and lightning stop. It's understandable that a child doesn't know the difference between what's possible and what's not, because they think their parents can do anything.

So, what's your excuse? Please tell us who has the power to make the thunder and lightning stop?

Or, if you prefer, we could simply push the button that ends up decimating the world. Not to worry, if you live anywhere near a population center, you shouldn't feel much. Just a bright flash and it'll all be over. And, as a bonus, your silhouette will be emblazoned on the nearest wall.

But hey, the war will stop. In fact, ALL wars will be stopped. Happy days, right?

P. S. There are two things in the world that are universally hated. There are probably more, but for sure at least two. Mosquitoes are the first. Everybody hates them. The second are people who constantly whine and complain about things, but offer nothing constructive. In school, in the workplace, among acquaintances (and even family), those people are universally hated. So far, your posts in this forum have placed you firmly in that latter group.

[QUOTE=DramaFree11;2705709]Exactly, it makes no sense. We have created a monster in the Ukraine President. The CIA is promising him the world, mean while, economies are tanking. Great job Biden!![/QUOTE]I'm not defending either pre-invasion Ukraine, or the CIA. I'm simply stating a plain and unassailable fact.

The Russian army, acting solely on Putin's orders, marched into Ukraine on Feb 24th and proceeded to devastate entire cities, with no regard for civilian casualties.

If you want to characterize Zelensky and the CIA as demons, go right ahead. But Putin has demonstrated that he's Satan incarnate, and that he needs to be defeated, and hopefully destroyed.

Every time I see a post that tries to deny, or sidestep, Putin's exclusive agency and responsibility for the war, I will point out the factual error. Every time.

[QUOTE=Jmsuttr;2705722]P. S. There are two things in the world that are universally hated. There are probably more, but for sure at least two. Mosquitoes are the first. Everybody hates them. p.[/QUOTE]Mosquitoes are not universally hated. West Africans have songs praising them because they killed the white colonialists, people like you. But then Africans are not even people to things like you.

Meanwhile, the great Russian Army roll on and American continues to fight to the last Ukrainian.

Time to you to step up and stop this war yourself by volunteering at the local Ukrainian embassy for a free ticket to a Ukrainian training camp where you will become Rambo and single handedly end this war by stopping the Russian Army! LOL.

BTW, if a country bombarded Jews (or ethnic Russians in the Donbass) for 8 years and refused to sign a peace treaty like the Minsk Accords, as Zelensky refused to do, would Israel (or Russia) be an aggressor if it invaded the country that had been bombarding Jews for 8 years? The difference between children and many Americans is that children grow up and accept reality. Many Americans don't. Pissing off the Russians was a bad idea and now Ukraine is paying for Zelensky's stupidity.

[QUOTE=Mike963;2705674]Who wants war, and we can safely say Russia started, true.

But no one is trying to stop it.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=Jmsuttr;2705726]I'm not defending either pre-invasion Ukraine, or the CIA. I'm simply stating a plain and unassailable fact.

The Russian army, acting solely on Putin's orders, marched into Ukraine on Feb 24th and proceeded to devastate entire cities, with no regard for civilian casualties.

If you want to characterize Zelensky and the CIA as demons, go right ahead. But Putin has demonstrated that he's Satan incarnate, and that he needs to be defeated, and hopefully destroyed.

Every time I see a post that tries to deny, or sidestep, Putin's exclusive agency and responsibility for the war, I will point out the factual error. Every time.[/QUOTE]I have never said Putin is not to blame. He started it, but there also many others that do not want the war to end. We should be demanding a ceasefire and negotiations. Cut off some of the money and weapons, you will see a settlement quickly.

[QUOTE=PedroMorales;2705799]Mosquitoes are not universally hated. West Africans have songs praising them because they killed the white colonialists, people like you. But then Africans are not even people to things like you.

Meanwhile, the great Russian Army roll on and American continues to fight to the last Ukrainian.[/QUOTE]Is that the best you've got? A post defending mosquitoes? With friends like you, the full and total humiliating defeat of the Russian orcs is assured! The Ukrainian defenders have their mosquito swatters and sprays at the full ready!

Congratulations, you have once again besoiled yourself for all to see. ROTFLMFAO!

[QUOTE=Jmsuttr;2705726]I'm not defending either pre-invasion Ukraine, or the CIA. I'm simply stating a plain and unassailable fact.

The Russian army, acting solely on Putin's orders, marched into Ukraine on Feb 24th and proceeded to devastate entire cities, with no regard for civilian casualties.

If you want to characterize Zelensky and the CIA as demons, go right ahead. But Putin has demonstrated that he's Satan incarnate, and that he needs to be defeated, and hopefully destroyed.

Every time I see a post that tries to deny, or sidestep, Putin's exclusive agency and responsibility for the war, I will point out the factual error. Every time.[/QUOTE]Much of the victim blaming is based on Russian propaganda disseminated in the West 2014 and onwards that goes largely unanswered, or just slanted academic analysis that blames NATO while ignoring the agencies of the Eastern Euro countries that had good reason to want to join.

That was just an excuse anyway as Putin later said he had no problems with Sweden and Finland joining. Ukraine has some very valuable lands, farming and seaports. Putin wants them. Many wars have been fought in that region over the centuries for that precise reason.

[URL]https://www.politico.eu/article/putin-russia-no-problem-finland-sweden-join-nato/[/URL]

Plus Zelensky was democratically elected and Ukraine has a Freedom House score of 61 out of 100, not great but about on par with Hungary. They've made a lot of progress. It's far greater than Russia's dismal 15 and Belarus' 5.

[URL]https://freedomhouse.org/countries/freedom-world/scores[/URL]

Mostly what we get here though is what I'd call monger forum drive by whiners. They lay out conspiracy theories while usually blaming US democrats for anything that may be wrong in their own lives or in the world. No source or proof is linked, and when asked for it it's never forthcoming. They don't return until they have another unproven assertion or if the mood strikes them to repeat the prior one over again. They don't want to tell us that they heard it the other night listening to Tucker Carlson or reading an obscure far right blog or their FB feed. Here's a good article, especially much of what is found through the sourced imbedded links. This source has a fabulous rating in the matter of media bias and fact checks.

[URL]https://theconversation.com/how-russias-unanswered-propaganda-led-to-the-war-in-ukraine-180202[/URL]

[URL]https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/the-conversation/[/URL]

Here's more that's worth a look.

[URL]https://www.state.gov/fact-vs-fiction-russian-disinformation-on-ukraine/[/URL]

[URL]https://www.pbs.org/newshour/show/how-russia-is-spreading-blatantly-false-information-about-the-war-in-ukraine[/URL]

[URL]https://news.stanford.edu/2022/03/03/seven-tips-spotting-disinformation-russia-ukraine-war/[/URL]

[QUOTE=DramaFree11;2705999]Cut off some of the money and weapons, you will see a settlement quickly.[/QUOTE]There you have it! Your prescription for ending the war would only affect Ukraine. Russia has already been cut off from money and weapons, to the maximum extent that sanctions can be agreed upon and applied.

Therefore, your "solution" would ONLY have a negative impact on Ukraine. Why don't you drop all pretense and simply declare that you're in favor of Ukrainian capitulation? How pathetic that, instead of having the courage of your convictions (even if wrong) you slink around using weasel-words.

It took a while, but eventually the truth always comes out.

P.S. You can now, once and for all, drop the further pretense that you give a shit about the Ukrainian people. Just take a look at Mariupol if you need a reminder of what Russian "victory" looks like.

It's characteristics and how to counter it.

[URL]https://www.rand.org/pubs/perspectives/PE198.html[/URL]

[QUOTE=Travv;2705814]Time to you to step up and stop this war yourself by volunteering at the local Ukrainian embassy for a free ticket to a Ukrainian training camp where you will become Rambo and single handedly end this war by stopping the Russian Army! LOL.

BTW, if a country bombarded Jews (or ethnic Russians in the Donbass) for 8 years and refused to sign a peace treaty like the Minsk Accords, as Zelensky refused to do, would Israel (or Russia) be an aggressor if it invaded the country that had been bombarding Jews for 8 years? The difference between children and many Americans is that children grow up and accept reality. Many Americans don't. Pissing off the Russians was a bad idea and now Ukraine is paying for Zelensky's stupidity.[/QUOTE]Whether one is discussing the situation in Eastern Ukraine, or the Israeli-Palestinian strife, or that of Turkey against the ethnic Kurds, it's not possible to make an objective analysis if one has already accepted the preferred narrative of one of the parties in the conflict.

Here's a pretty comprehensive look at the issues, and competing Ukraine vs Russia narratives, authored by a German organization:

[URL]https://www.swp-berlin.org/10.18449/2019RP05[/URL]

Reading, or even skimming, through the report, it's quite evident how far apart the narratives of each of the sides are. One can certainly set the starting point of the timeline at 2014, and one can certainly argue that the Minsk Accords are an equitable solution. But intellectual honesty and integrity requires pointing out that such a view is in substantial agreement with the pro-Russia narrative, and is dismissive of the Ukrainian position.

As I've posted numerous times, I'm not interested in defending pre-invasion Ukraine. I frankly don't care what provocations, real or imagined, Russia was enduring. As the bigger and more powerful country, they had a range of options by which they could have responded. Marching in with an army, and lobbing bombs and missiles at civilians, is unacceptable by any moral standard.

Russia is unequivocally the aggressor, and Putin bears sole responsibility. With those facts fixed firmly in mind, my hope is for the most humiliating possible defeat for Russia. And my second hope is that Russia's own people see to a Mussolini-like denouement for Little Vlad.

As for which country ends up paying for its leader's stupidity, there's a compelling argument to be made that Russia will come out the long-term loser.